Bonus: The Making Of

True Story Media.

I'm Tina Noll, founder of Large Media and producer of Nobody Should Believe Me.

I'm Andrea Dunlop, host and executive producer of Nobody Should Believe Me.

I'm Corrine Kiltow, producer and editor at Large Media, and I'm moderating this episode today.

If you just can't get enough of me in your ears, first of all, thank you.

I have a job because of you.

And secondly, did you know that I have a new audiobook out this year?

The Mother Next Door, which I co-authored with Detective Mike Weber, is available in all formats wherever books are sold.

It's a deep dive into three of Mike's most impactful Munchausen by proxy cases, and I think you'll love it.

Here's a sample.

When Susan logged in, what she discovered shocked her to the marrow of her bones.

Though the recent insurance records contained pages and pages of information about Sophia, There was nothing about Hope.

Susan dug deeper and looked back through years of records.

There wasn't a single entry about Hope's cancer treatment.

For eight years, the Butcher family had lived with a devastating fear that their beloved daughter and sister was battling terminal cancer.

For months, they'd been preparing for her death.

But in that moment, a new horror was dawning.

For nearly a decade, Hope had been lying.

Chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more, can make me feel like a spectator in my own life.

Botox, onobotulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine.

It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month.

It's the number one prescribed branded chronic migraine preventive treatment.

Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor.

Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms.

Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition.

Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk.

Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache.

Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness.

Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection.

Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.

Why wait?

Ask your doctor, visit BotoxCronicmigraine.com, or call 1-800-44-Botox to learn more.

How did the idea of making this a podcast come about?

Since my novel, We Came Here to Forget, came out in 2019,

I had been speaking more publicly about the issue of Munch Hausen by Proxy and talking about my sort of personal connection to it.

And

as a part of that work, I got in touch with this amazing group of people that is the Munch Hausen by Proxy Committee that's part of APSAC, which is the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children, which is a big umbrella organization, all interdisciplinary

folks that work with kids.

Just

hearing all of these stories from about other cases and really understanding that this was a much bigger issue than just something that sort of affected a few families in this really isolated fashion, which I think is what everyone

feels like when they're going through it.

And then also just was struck by how compelling these stories are.

And you were sitting there thinking, I'm exactly where I need to be right now.

You know,

I've been estranged from my sister for a really long time.

You know, these investigations, the sort of specter of this has hung really heavily over me.

And there have been long periods of time where I just didn't want anything to do with the issue.

And then when I wrote my novel, you know, which tackles the issue of mentas and my proxy, I thought, okay, I'm done with it.

Like, that's it.

I've written my thing and like, I'm done with it.

And then, you know, the book came out and then I was doing some press and I said, okay, I'll talk about it in this context because I want to raise awareness about the issue.

And I want people to know that, you know, this is like, if someone is reading that, they're not the only person to ever go through it and that kind of thing.

And then I said, and then I'm done, you know, and then so I sort of like, it was a big step in sort of getting drawn a little bit more into doing this, into having this be a bigger part of my professional life.

And I think I was feeling like, am I just.

a glutton for punishment to sort of be focusing on this really, you know, sad chapter of, of losing my relationship with my sister over the, you know, over the investigation.

And so I was feeling very mixed feelings about being there.

And then it was such a positive experience and meeting these professionals.

A lot of people that work on this as a big part of their lives really do so at great personal expense.

You know, it's not something where there's a lot of funding.

It's not something where there's necessarily a lot of like institutional support.

You know, people really take a lot of, take a lot of flack for being involved in these cases.

And so I think it was very inspiring to see this group of people.

And I just thought,

I think I'm supposed to be here.

It feels like I'm supposed to be here.

So why specifically a podcast?

I was working with Tina Noel on this other project with my dad, which is sort of a memoir podcast about his life.

And I was just really sort of falling in love with the audio medium and was learning so much from Tina and just thought that she would be the right partner for this kind of project, because it certainly is a huge challenge to figure out how to talk about this issue in a way that is compelling but also responsible and I knew that Tina was up to the task so then I brought it to her and when you talked to Tina at large media and Tina you were instantly thinking yes this is a great a great topic for a podcast but not only just because of detective mike weber and his investigation but andrea's close relationship to it, which I understand you did.

At first, Andrea did not want to talk about it.

But Tina, you thought, you know what?

No, we need to tie this in somehow.

When you think about what moves people, it's a story and it's a personal connection to a story.

And so many podcasts are focused on the topic.

And

there's a wise tendency, I think, to handle it academically.

And Andrea clearly had all of these great experts at her fingertips and had deep knowledge of this topic.

And so I felt like an audience is really going to connect to this if they really understand why she is compelled to do it.

And, you know, Andrea is a novelist.

She is a great storyteller.

And still, she was reluctant to bring her entire family into this podcast, you know, understandably so.

And so I think we together, you know, not for nothing, we handled it gently and came together and knowing that for an audience to really understand why this person is on this quest, to really

what is this?

Is it a disease?

Is it a crime?

Is it, you know, what is this thing that my sister was really investigated for?

How do I learn about it?

How am I going to unpack this thing?

I felt like from an audience perspective, they had to understand that heart connection that she has.

She has with her sister.

I saw it.

I mean, we had lots of tears together about how hard that was for her family to go through.

And I had met her father.

So I, you know, I've come to really care about them.

And our editor, Lisa Gray, was also like, wow, I wonder if we can weave in that story.

And there was a lot of, we were

trying to figure out how to put that together was hard.

Like, how do we weave that story?

And Andrea was like, there's this amazing case that is very tragic, but also ends in a positive light with the Hopi Barr case that her kids are saved, that

there's some parallels here that I think that we could tie together.

And so that is when I think the podcast began to, we started, the light started to shine for both of us.

And then Andrew's like, you know, we could go to Texas and talk to these people.

And that also is like, okay, well, we've got a story.

She's got a deep-hearted story.

She was opening her mind and story and life up privately together.

We're just talking so much.

So I think it really kind of came together on that.

And chemistry between the two of you, right?

I mean, so, I mean, that's a lot of trust for you, Andrea, to trust in what Tina is trying to guide you into for the podcast.

And then, of course, you travel Texas, Idaho, parts of Washington.

So road tripping.

Tell me about the snacks.

I know the first thing I think about is you share Cheetos or what kind of things would you guys share, Andrew?

No, I don't want to share Tina's snacks because Tina is well known for eating

the weirdest snacks.

And so I feel like, you know, we'll be walking along in Texas and she's like, okay, just try this vegan beef jerky.

I swear to God, it's good.

And I, listener, it's so disgusting.

Like, I think that Vegemite is the only thing I've tasted that's more disgusting.

But yeah, so she'll just be like over there with her with her kelp snacks.

We both do enjoy a Starbucks Impossible breakfast sandwich.

That is where our crossover.

Many times to Starbucks.

But yeah, it's very funny going on the road with Tina to Texas in particular because, you know, people like they like their meat in Fort Worth, Texas.

And so we've, I watched her eat some sad potatoes at some barbecue places.

Very nice.

Yeah, but I, you know, we travel together.

We really had a great time traveling together.

It was not, I mean, these were like emotionally exhausting.

Yes, days.

I mean, having to, Andrea had to sit and hear these stories.

I mean, we both had to sit and hear these stories, but she had to be like so present and doing these interviews and recording for hours during the day.

And at the end of the day, we had to come together and like pal around, you know?

Like, oh, gosh, we just, you know, had this common experience.

Plus, I mean, generally, like you, obviously.

Yeah.

Yeah, we have a great relationship.

But yeah, it was arduous, long recording days and

sifting through these stories was a lot.

Yeah.

Heavy, man.

It was heavy.

You know, I, going into this, had no experience as an interviewer.

So I really was, I think Tina really helped me build my confidence on the fly.

And

I, you know, really.

It's such a together thing, I will say, though.

Like that is totally like, you can give direction, somebody can take it.

But like, you know, there's plenty of people that can't take the direction the way that you can and absorb it and like

quick study.

And so together, you used this term a long time ago, we really mind-melded on things where I could start to hear how she might ask a question or I could understand what she was getting at, you know, so we really got this really like

all the same.

Like, you know, it wasn't just like me coaching you into being a good interview.

Like together we did that, I feel.

Yeah.

Well, and I think you also taught me about like when to sort of let something

land and let something breathe.

I think I do have, because I am a talker, I do have sometimes that tendency to, especially when someone's talking about something really hard, like I'll jump in there and like, oh, this is what you mean, or like trying to like help someone along.

And like, that's like the worst thing you can do when you're interviewing someone for an audio medium.

Yeah, I think those trips were really incredible.

And I just remember really specifically, I think it was after we interviewed George Honeycutt, which was one of our last interviews in Texas.

And I just remember being in the lobby of the hotel and just looking at Tina and being like, oh no, this is not just like a hobby project.

Like we really have something here.

And we were, I mean, I was just also really blown away by how willing people were to talk to me, you know, when heading into it, I was like, I didn't have necessarily, I had connections with the experts, right?

So I knew Mark and Mary and, you know, Mike Weber would, would, would talk to us and that we could get to some of these other sort of expert professional people who are, to be frank, desperate for people to understand this issue better.

But in terms of, you know, Hope's family and her ex-husband and some of these other people, I had no idea whether or not they'd want to talk to me or if they'd just be like, who is this person?

Or how they would be.

I mean, there's also like, there's, you know, this sort of magical thing that can happen when you're in an interview where you're holding space for it.

And I think that we did that.

Like we kept holding the space to let them talk.

But I will also say these people, I don't know if it was luck or what, but the Putcher family,

They are great people and you don't know going into it how they're going to be, what their personality is going to be like.

these were wonderful humans with open hearts and kindness and they're funny and they're interesting folks you know and it's a hard subject very hard subject for them and the fact that they were willing to talk about it right i mean you gave them a voice we all cried together on all every one of those family members we cried with yeah yeah and it i mean and it really

you know it meant it meant a lot to me that those people were willing to trust me because yeah you know the coverage of this,

these cases can go so bad.

And I just think I really wanted to do right by everyone that we talked to.

And we were really, really deliberate on what questions we asked and sort of what we included and what we left out.

And it was really an incredible experience, especially, I think, that

first trip, just because everyone who's been through an investigation or been through, you know, a situation in their family where there were suspicions or where there was a charge or any sort of thing on the spectrum really feels like they're the only person that ever went through it ever in their life.

And it wasn't until I sat down with a Robin Butcher, I had ever spoken to someone who'd had a personal experience of having a family member investigated.

And

that was extremely powerful.

And honestly, that interview,

when I left that interview, I was pretty overwhelmed.

And I just thought I remember kind of driving home from Tina's house and just thinking I don't know if I can do this you know like I don't know if I can if I can sit through hours and hours and hours of this and then I woke up the next day and I felt really good and I thought nope like this is this feels like what I'm supposed to do and it's hard to talk about these things but it's also you know I think these conversations were very cathartic they were cathartic for me I think in in most cases at least this is what it seemed like and this was the feedback we had it was cathartic for whoever we were talking to.

And you know, we've kept in touch with everybody from the podcast for the most part.

And,

you know, that's become its own sort of little community.

One of the things that I really is a deep value of mine, because, you know, I come into this not as a podcaster, but already as a storyteller because I'm an author.

That's my main gig.

You know, I really believe in the power of stories to make people feel less alone.

And I think that that's one of the best things that you can ever do as a storyteller, whether you're doing it through fiction or through nonfiction.

And I think like that was what we were seeing.

And we were sort of seeing that relief that comes with, oh my gosh, I'm telling you this experience and I don't have to explain it to you.

Right.

You understand what I'm saying.

And I don't, you're not like, I think what everyone had been through is.

these stories are so shocking that what people are used to is being met with a certain amount of disbelief and you know wrong-headed questions.

And even if they're well-meant, of just like,

what happened?

You know, and that sort of like you watch the blood drain from someone's face.

And then that isn't a very healing experience for the person who's trying to tell that story that happened to them if just you're then dealing with the listener's shock.

Right.

And so I think what we could do also was sort of like,

no one here is going to be shocked.

And like, we're presenting this as part of a pattern and we're presenting this as like a not just like the oh my god how many surgeries and that kind of and as you so you developed some great relationships with the butchers at what point did you realize you were actually going to get to talk to hope

and what did that feel like oh my god that was quite a roller coaster I mean that was many months of back and forth you're you're always as a pretty short trying to figure out how you're going to end it how are you going to end this thing like where's it where are we going on this journey right so if we didn't interview Hope, there was this one path I'm thinking.

And if we get Hope, there's this other path that I'm thinking.

And the whole time, you're like, well, all these episodes are starting to come together.

The story's starting to come together.

We're having to take all the tape from

Texas that we were recording and start to process that tape and start to build story around what's going on.

And here, Andrea is diligently working to

land an interview with Hope.

That was really fascinating.

And that was definitely the hardest part of season one, like by a long, long shot, right?

Because, you know, by and large, everyone that we reached out to said yes.

And then a couple people like never got back to us.

And so we're like, all right, well, that person's on the talk and that's fine.

And with Hope, you know, I had gotten her number from

one of her family members and reached out to her, you know, right in the beginning.

And

she

was nice enough about it and sort of said no.

And then I kind of let let it be.

And just, and I think there was some part of me when she said no, that I was relieved because I was like, I don't, this is very fraught.

Like, I don't know.

And I just sort of thought, like, also, you know, I think part of it was when I started, I didn't have as much confidence as an interviewer.

So I was like, what if I just get manipulated by this person and they get to say all the things they want to say?

And I just, I just think I was, and I was also like, you know,

have reason to be fearful of

hope.

She

has done some very extreme things.

So it's not, you know, like I don't want to sort of overplay that, but like, you know,

except give Mike Weber to be in a room alone with her.

Don't be alone with her.

Let's be honest.

Yeah, he did say, he said, and I sort of laughed that off because, you know, here she is this sort of diminutive looking person, but he's like, no, I'm serious.

Don't be in the room alone with her.

You know, I let it go at first.

And then

the further we got into recording and that was, you know, first reached out to her, that was when I was first reaching out to everybody.

So I'd first reached out to, you know, Fabian.

And I hadn't done many of these interviews yet when I first reached out to Hope.

And she said, no, and I was kind of like, fine, whatever.

Like, I don't know how that was going to go.

So it's fine.

We'll say we reached out to you.

You didn't want to talk.

So fine.

And then the more that like.

I so got into talking and having these really deep conversations with her siblings and her dad and her ex-husband,

I just thought we're making this whole podcast.

I mean, obviously the whole podcast is not about Hope.

We take a lot of sort of other, other tracks in the podcast, but she is a huge part of the podcast.

And I sort of felt really uncomfortable of like, I'm making this podcast about someone and their voice isn't included.

And I would feel like the project had sort of a greater level of integrity if we could include them.

And also just that I thought Hope was going to be more open than anybody else we could find to give us that perspective.

And I think because my number one goal with this podcast was really to put a human face on all of this.

And I think it's very easy for us with

people who have committed particularly shocking, heinous crimes.

It's very easy for us to just make them a monster, lock them away, throw away the key.

Let's just completely dehumanize this person, right?

They're a criminal.

They're a monster.

They're, you know, not

a person that I would recognize.

And that's just not true.

And so, and I knew that wasn't true.

And especially because we were fleshing out this person that Hope had been in her life before she committed these crimes,

where she was this really beloved family member and, you know, person in her community.

And she was smart and she was all these things, right?

And it's, it, I wanted people to understand that Hope was a person too.

And the best way to do that would be to get her voice in there.

And I also thought, like, you know, she had done some interviews.

So A, I thought, you know, there was a chance she would probably be open to it if I was persistent.

And also, I really felt like

I wanted to convince her.

I thought, I was like, I think you should talk to me.

I was like, I think that I'm going to ask you questions that other interviewers are not.

You know, the other interviews with her, the one Deanna Boyd from Fort Worth Star Telegram did with her was excellent.

Deanna is an excellent reporter, but she's not coming from it at the same perspective that I did.

And I was like, I'm not going to ask you about your crime.

Like,

namely, because trying to get an honest depiction out of hope of like what she did would be a fool's errand, right?

We know she's not going to tell, she's never been fully accountable for her crimes.

And I knew that, you know, I knew she said she didn't remember, she had a diabetic coma, et cetera.

So I knew that it wasn't going to be as though she was going to like walk us through it from A to B.

Here's why I did what I did.

And, you know, and that wasn't even really what I wanted to know.

I really wanted to get a sense of like

how she experienced the whole thing and what she thought now and how she felt looking back on it.

And just to get like a sense of her as a person.

And I think that maybe I was a little hopeful that

she would be open to treatment.

I made that offer to her when we were talking.

I said, listen, like I'm, you know,

no brag, but like I know all the best people in the world on this topic.

I mean, that's really true.

Like, that's because I'm on this committee.

And, you know, if you want help, like if you are a person that is open to treatment for this, then like, I will help you do that.

I will make those connections.

I will talk to you.

I will, you know,

and she said at the time she was open to it.

I haven't heard from her since.

So who knows?

Offer still stands.

You know, not that the butchers asked me to do this or that they need me to do this or that I have any.

place to do this, but like, if there's anything about that conversation that could help them close the loop, or if there's anything about that conversation that could be illuminating for her children, if they ever want to listen, and certainly like there's, you know, they may not, but like, I sort of just thought, like, if there's anything, if there's any insight that I can get out of her, like, I really want.

So I just kind of persisted and I reached back out to her and I said, you know, I know you said no, but, you know, here's all the reasons I think you should talk to me.

I'm really like, my intentions are good here.

Like, I'm not trying to like make you look bad.

And I, you know, want to,

like, I really,

I think this conversation could be good for you too.

Like, I, you know, and

so we got in this back and forth where she said yes, and then she said no, and then she said she was going to talk to her lawyer.

And then I don't think that there was necessarily a lawyer.

I just want to interject because this was over days and weeks of this.

Yeah, yeah, this was a long time.

This wasn't like

long

back and forth.

It was July of 2021.

And so we had done, it was like the last interview that that we were trying to get.

And she said

yes.

And we booked our trip and we got plane tickets and we got a hotel.

And then she said no

and said, I've reconsidered.

And she kept saying, you know, oh, I don't want to hurt my family.

And I told her, I said, like, I don't think that's going to hurt your family.

Like, I have been talking to your family a lot.

They're wonderful.

Like, I don't think that anything that you say now is going to.

Was she surprised that you were talking to her family?

I don't know.

I probably, honestly.

I mean, and I think that that probably also

maybe was a factor.

I don't know.

It's hard to, it's very hard to guess what is going on truly in Hope's mind.

But, you know, I, I told her, like, I don't think, you know, and I sort of,

I said, okay.

So at that point, she said, you know,

I don't think I want to do the interview.

And then I said,

well, listen, like, I'm coming.

Let's just have lunch.

I think it would be really good for us to talk.

Like, regardless, if you don't want to do the interview, don't do the interview.

And so at that point, we're like, at least we could have andrea talk about it later

you know we had this conversation and we met with her and and and say like you you know you don't but like i really just i want to meet like it's really become important to me to have this conversation and that was you know like was i trying to get her to agree to the interview yes

was i also did i mean it yes if if sitting down with her and having a face-to-face lunch off the off record was was what was going to happen, then I was willing to fly to Idaho for that too.

This was going to be like sort of

my one chance to kind of like ask someone these questions.

So I really like, I was exactly as invested as I was portraying myself in just like having the conversation, whether I could record it or not.

September is here and you know what that means.

Sowetaweather is coming.

If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know that I love Quince.

And if you know me in real life, you also know that I love Quince because even when I'm off the clock, I talk about this brand.

Quince has an amazing array of products from jewelry to footwear to bedding, but they are known for their sweaters.

Sweaters is where they shine.

I get so many compliments on my Quince cashmere sweaters.

I was wearing one once while I was actively buying a Quince gift card for my daughter's teacher, and the checkout person said, I've been wanting to try this brand.

I heard about them on a podcast and I was like, I'm wearing Quince.

I have a podcast.

You got to try Quince.

This is, by the way, a 100% true and fact-check story.

Quince is known for their famous cashmere.

They also have cotton and merino wool sweaters, cardigans, and dresses, all for a fraction of the price you'd pay for this quality anywhere else.

And don't even get me started on their beautiful coats.

They've got wool coats, dusters, capes, puffers, trenches, leather bombers, and embarrassment of riches.

Keep it classy and cozy this fall with long-lasting staples from Quince.

Go to quince.com slash believe for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

That's q-u-in-ce-e.com slash believe to get free shipping and 365-day returns.

Quince.com slash believe.

And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show.

In these turbulent economic times, the last thing any of us need to worry about is unexpected fees and other nonsense from our banks, which is why I love Chime.

Chime understands that every dollar counts.

That's why when you set up direct deposit through QIIME, you get access to fee-free returns like free overdraft coverage, getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit, and more.

Something I love about QIIME is their 24-7 customer service.

Having a banking issue is extremely stressful, especially when you run a business.

And I want to talk to a person right now when I have one.

I also travel a lot for work these days, and with QIIME, I have access to 47,000 fee-free ATMs nationwide.

47,000?

That's so many.

CHIME is banking done right.

Open a checking account with no monthly fees and no maintenance fees today.

Work on your financial goals through QIIME today.

Open an account at chime.com slash nobody.

That's chime.com/slash nobody.

And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show.

Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank.

Banking services and debit card provided by the Bankwork Bank NA or Stripe Bank NA, members of FDIC.

Spot me eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply.

Timing depends on submission payment file.

Fees apply at AutoNetwork ATMs, bank ranking, and number of ATMs, according to U.S.

News and World Report 2023.

Chime checking account required.

This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace, the all-in-one website platform designed to help you build your career.

Whether you're brand new or looking for ways to grow your business, Squarespace has everything you need to find customers, get paid, and streamline your workflow.

I love it when brands that I already use and like sponsor the show, and I've been using Squarespace for years.

As both my team and my husband can attest to, while I have many other gifts, being tech savvy isn't one of them.

And usually asking me to do something like create or update a website would make me want to jump out a window.

But Squarespace is so intuitive and they offer an array of beautiful design templates and AI tools that help you create the website you want.

They also have an incredible suite of new tools and features that I didn't even know about, but am very excited to try.

They've got everything from monetization and invoicing to analytics, email campaigns, and built-in appointment scheduling.

If you have a small business in a creative industry like I do, packaging this all together is a dream, especially if you are also a person who perpetually has about 27 tabs open.

Squarespace brings together so many elegant, easy-to-use tools, I just cannot recommend it enough.

So if you want to up your game and support Nobody Should Believe Me, you can head to squarespace.com backslash nobody for a free trial.

And when you're ready to launch, use offer code nobody to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

Well, and I was blown away when I found out that you got Hope.

I mean, when I saw that come up, I thought, what the?

I could not wait to listen to that.

And it was very captivating to hear what she had to talk about.

But Tina, I know that you, there was a moment in the car where Tina caught audio of Andrea, you being very raw from the whole experience.

That was after talking to Hope.

I always would record Andrea in the car and stuff because we just get in these conversations that are really great.

So I just hit record, and a lot of times she didn't know, sometimes she knew, but

you're such a creep.

I was totally super creepy.

She was a good producer.

She would be sleeping, and I'd be like,

She's snoring.

I should probably get this.

No, like, you know, so I would often record our conversations because they were compelling, and sometimes there's insightful things that can happen.

I mean, I remember when we got there, and it was like emotional for both of us because we're like, A, she could not show up, and B, this is a very intense moment for Andrea's life, really, when you think about it.

Like, this crime, disease, all of the things that Munchausen by proxy is, this horrible act has affected her life.

And so this is a really scary

and important opportunity for her to have.

So there's just a lot of charged emotion in there

when we were on our way and after the conversation.

I will tell you, that conversation was

very strange for me.

Andrea did a great job of holding the space for hope and really just staying with it.

She was brave and I was snowed in moments.

I was like, I think she's going to get help.

I mean, I really was.

I was pretty naive about it.

I thought, oh, maybe this will,

you know, maybe she'll get better or whatever.

Accept the help that Andrea.

That Andrea was extending.

Yeah.

I mean, she showed up pretending that she couldn't hear us.

And there's a moment in the episode you will hear that I play tape for her.

And she can hear that tape very clearly.

But that interview is an important one, I think, for everybody.

And I think that what happens, this has always been on my mind when like true crime or movies and things like that.

The crime happens, the perpetrator is caught, they're in jail, story's over.

And I'm always like, wait, what happened next?

What were they like in prison?

What was their life?

Who are they now when they're out?

Yeah.

And I don't, I mean, I would, I would argue, Tina, that you were not snowed exactly.

I think

that was maybe your first experience with someone like Hope.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That was not my first experience with someone like Hope.

Great point.

You're totally right.

Yeah.

And

I also think that we can hold space for a lot of what Hope said

to be true in a sense.

And I think that Even, you know, when she had that reaction to me saying, you know, if you want to get help, et cetera, in that moment,

later that day, the next morning, she might have still felt that way.

She might still just be in the middle.

I mean, you know,

we can't guess at what really is going on with her.

And I think it's worth remembering what Dr.

Murray Sanders has told us about.

folks with this behavior pattern is that there's a tremendous, like crushing amount of shame that goes along with it.

And so I think like,

you know,

we can

hope did some really terrible things that's not under dispute.

And I think that, like, whether or not

people want to, the people who were in her life before want to have any kind of continuing relationship with her, that's very, very tricky.

It's very tricky for people to figure out how to have a relationship with a perpetrator.

I mean, and that goes for everyone that I've talked to, survivors.

I mean, that's something they really struggle with.

Like, can I have a relationship with my mother at all?

Like, can I talk to her once a year?

Can I never, you you know, like, what are the parameters that are going to, like, I'm going to be able to be healthy and have a relationship with this person?

So, that is just like extremely, extremely tricky.

But I think for us as listeners and just in sort of a greater context and, you know, in terms of the professionals who look at is treatment possible,

you can still have empathy for her.

She is a human being.

And that was one of the things that she said is like, I want people to know that I'm a human being.

And that's totally valid.

You know, I think like, and I think that there's a level on which we can say

that someone like Hope is in a tremendous amount of pain to do these really destructive things.

But then at the same time, you know, like

accountability is king in this.

And so if.

you know, if they're not willing to be fully accountable, but I mean, I don't think like Tina, I think the reaction that Tina just had talking about herself in that conversation is the reaction that like a lot of people have where they're like, well, how could you just be fooled by this person?

And it's like, because

they're very compelling.

And like even me, I mean, like one of the things I felt very self-conscious about that episode

because it sounds like I changed my mind about her so quickly because, and I listening back to it myself, I mean, and this was totally fascinating for me to listen back to the conversation with her, but also because Tina, you know, is a creep and records me all the time.

Like to listen to like what I was saying to Tina.

Yeah.

I mean, really, it was such a gift.

Like to be, to listen to like me talking about it before I go in and talking about it after, because you just don't normally get to hear yourself processing things.

And it was really interesting for me to like listen to like my genuine, like, raw, you know, because of course I felt differently about it three days later and a week later.

And like, but in the moment, especially right after,

you know, I,

you know, it sounds like I changed my mind about her so quickly because when I'm in the room with her, we are having what is, you know, it was like a very sort of warm conversation.

Yeah.

You know, and like, because I was really trying hard to compartmentalize what I knew about her and just like give us the space to be like two women having a conversation.

And I think that that, and that was, that was how I was approaching it.

I mean, that was genuine.

And like my openness to hope was genuine.

And then I think once I walked away,

some of those things that she said, some, some, the smoke sort of started to clear.

I mean, she is like, she's an appealing, warm person in real life.

You know, she's she

it's it's kind of uncanny I mean I don't quite know how to like she does she seems like the least threatening person you ever saw in your life and and I will say that it's I think it's human nature to want somebody to be redeemed or to be better redeemable redeemable yeah and and be better and so when you're sitting in front of somebody that you know has done very very very very diabolical things to helpless beings it's really splitting your own mind to have the understanding that they also spent 10 years in prison.

So in my mind, I was like, she did her 10 years.

She must have gotten

stupidly rehabilitated or something in prison, you know, as if our prison system does that, but that's neither here nor there.

But, you know, I think that it is human nature to want them to be good.

And so it's a mind split.

Especially if someone is able to, and I think this gets to like why this,

these cases are so tricky, especially when someone presents

like a good person.

The reality is, if you're sitting across from

a creepy looking guy with neck tattoos or nothing against the neck tattoo community, like, you know, like whoever it is that we sort of conceptualize as a criminal, you know, you're sort of like law and order central casting criminal, then you're going to be able to kind kind of hold that in your mind better.

But the reality is Hope looks like the mom on the block.

I mean, she really does.

She looked like that then.

She looks like that now.

She's soft spoken.

She comes across warm.

She was in tears almost the minute she sat down.

You know, there is that, that, what made her so compelling then is what makes her so compelling now.

And so I think like being able to then recognize that someone can come off this way and still be capable of truly the most monstrous things you can possibly imagine.

Yeah,

it's a workout for your brain.

It really is.

And for you both to experience that together, at least you had each other

to debrief.

Yes, thank God.

So you mentioned earlier you're still in contact with a lot of people from the season.

And you've built a big community, actually, much bigger than what you thought, because you started a support group.

So we have Munchausen Support, which is an online resource site that I started with Dr.

Mark Feldman and is also a 501c3.

So right now, one of the big things that we're building out is survivor support groups and

support groups for family members.

So we have a couple that are survivors and a couple that are for dads.

That's something I started with my committee colleagues that has sort of gone along with this podcast.

And yeah, we're just, you know, that community is growing.

And it's one of the other things, other than hearing this unanimously from experts, that's another thing just anecdotally that has made me feel pretty certain that this abuse is not as rare as it's portrayed because

I just keep hearing from too many people that it's happened to them.

So season two, is there going to be a season two?

Oh, I hope so.

I hope so.

We recorded some audio from season two and we went to Tarrott County again.

And the story is

very compelling.

It's also

oddly lovely.

There is some really sweet things about the story that I really hope that that we get to tell.

And

some of the characters that you met in season one will be in season two, but it's a brand new story with a brand new set of characters.

The story that we're talking about in season two, it's the Britney Phillips case.

And it's one that when I heard it, completely disabused me of a whole bunch of notions that I had about what this.

crime looked like and what perpetrators were like.

And, you know, we're excited to sort of debunk some of even, you know, my

assumptions that I went into.

And I think there's just, there's a lot of really good and interesting people around this case

You know Sheriff Weighburn and his wife being two of our main characters and I think I really also you know we're looking to sort of shift the focus to talking about survivors and I think that that's something that has gotten completely lost in the coverage of these cases.

You know unfortunately a lot of the media coverage of these cases involves cases where the child dies

and

We don't talk about any cases where the child dies.

Even in the cases that we talk about that did not go right,

the interventions of the professionals who tried to help, we very strongly believe that that slowed that abuse pattern down and maybe you got enough eyes on that child so that they survived.

So, and then, you know, we are obviously talking about also some cases where there were criminal charges.

So I think, you know, we really want to shift that conversation to, yeah, how does life go on after these cases?

What I've come to in looking at, you know, again, like I always say, I'm like, okay, I'm just going to do this and then I'm done.

And so we made the first season and then I'm like, okay, that's just a limited series and we're done.

And then I was like, no, actually, there's so much more to say.

And I think they're just, there, it's, it is, it's a fascinating topic.

There's a lot of things to explore.

It's really underexplored.

And the stories are so compelling.

And I had not met any survivors until I did the first season of this podcast.

And now I've met a bunch.

And I'm so inspired by them because this is a type of abuse.

And every survivor that I've talked to was not separated from their abuser.

So they were raised by that person until they were 18 and left home.

And so it's the kind of thing where I think people can sometimes look at these cases and just think like, oh, if that person is not separated from their abuser, like that abuse is so severe that like that person's going to be so messed up that they're sort of like

maybe even an inclination to sort of give up on that person and just think like, oh, well, that person's going to have so many challenges.

And of course, like, yeah, anybody who grows up with, you know, in a really abusive situation is going to have some challenges.

But watching

some of these survivors that I've talked to just be determined to sort of turn their lives around and turn their stories around is so incredible and it's so hopeful.

And that's what I really want is to give people some hope about this issue, to just say like, you know, that it's not, even if the system fails, which honestly, I'm pretty convinced it's going to in most cases, especially the ones that don't happen to involve Mike Weber,

that there's not, you know, that we don't just sort of

give up on the person who's at the center of it.