A Ride-along with The Dating Detectives

True Story Media.

Hello, it's Andrea Dunlop from Nobody Should Believe Me, and today I'm sharing a very special crossover episode that I did with my friends over at the Dating Detectives podcast.

You may already be listening to this show.

It has been an absolute hit since it launched less than a year ago, and for good reason, it is completely addictive.

The show is hosted by private investigator Mackenzie Fultz and comedian Hannah Anderson, who are both absolute sweethearts, and they cover true stories of romantic deception.

What I love about this show, which was created by my brilliant friend Molly Bisker, is that even though the tone is lighthearted, it never comes at the expense of the victims.

And because they invite people to tell their stories in their own words, the laughter that happens is always of the cathartic, absurd, laughing with you variety, which is really an art because unpopular opinion here, but true crime and comedy, not always the best mix.

So, anyway, I hope you enjoy this episode and go check out Dating Detectives for much more wherever you listen to podcasts.

They are fantastic.

If you just can't get enough of me in your ears, first of all, thank you.

I have a job because of you.

And secondly, did you know that I have a new audiobook out this year?

The Mother Next Door, which I co-authored with Detective Mike Weber, is available in all formats wherever books are sold.

It's a deep dive into three of Mike's most impactful munchausen by proxy cases, and I I think you'll love it.

Here's a sample.

When Susan logged in, what she discovered shocked her to the marrow of her bones.

Though the recent insurance records contained pages and pages of information about Sophia, there was nothing about Hope.

Susan dug deeper and looked back through years of records.

There wasn't a single entry about Hope's cancer treatment.

For eight years, the Butcher family had lived with a devastating fear that their their beloved daughter and sister was battling terminal cancer.

For months, they'd been preparing for her death.

But in that moment, a new horror was dawning.

For nearly a decade, hope had been lying.

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Hello.

We have a full house today.

This is a lot more voices than you guys are used to hearing.

Sorry.

Well, let's go through it.

I'm Hannah from the Dating Detectives.

I'm Mackenzie.

I'm a private investigator.

You guys know the host of the Dating Detectives along with Hannah.

Woo.

And I am Andrea Dunlop.

I am the host and creator of the podcast, Nobody Should Believe Me.

And the reason I'm here today will soon be revealed as you listen to this story.

And I'm like beside myself that you're here, by the way.

I just FYI.

Oh my gosh, me too.

Are we just all going to fangirl at each other for a minute?

Just parasocial, just parasocial ourselves right into our screens.

Yes, we're all fans.

I love dating detectives.

I am a regular listener.

I enjoy it.

I learn things.

This is beyond, you guys.

So cool.

Thank you for coming.

I mean, if you don't know, nobody should believe me.

I think a lot of people do, but they need to.

They need to.

Oh, my goodness.

Well, I feel the same way about dating detectives.

You guys are the perfect mix of having a lot of fun on a true crime show while still centering survivors and being ethical and responsible with your content.

And it just proves you can do both.

You don't have to be, you know, I don't, I wouldn't say we have like a tremendous amount of fun on my show.

I love making making my show but it's not exactly like woo come along for a wild fun ride so it's it's exciting to be here with you today i think you guys strike a great balance with that thank you so much for that compliment that's such a nice compliment thank you we laugh to cope

yeah i think it's you know there is like a fair amount of gallows humor when you're dealing with this stuff all the time and i think you can still do that while being you know respectful especially to the to the folks that are brave enough to share their stories so i think that it's all good it can it can be done.

It doesn't have to be one or the other.

So guys.

And I, and also, you guys are going to meet our guest.

Her name is Mila.

Mila, can you introduce yourself?

Yes.

Hello.

I am Mila and this is my story.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you so, so much.

We are, it's like, we are ready to hear it, girl.

Take us away, will you?

Where do we start?

I met a friend in college.

So I guess if I just start from the beginning, I met her through my brother.

They went to college together and

I'm gay.

She's gay.

We're attracted to each other, but she was in a relationship.

So I respected boundaries and we were friends.

Eventually, she breaks up with her girlfriend and we get together.

Somewhere between meeting and getting together, she drops the bomb that she has brain cancer.

And

I just thought,

how would I want somebody to respond in this situation?

And so I told her, whatever it is, I'm here for you or friends.

I'll support you.

You know.

Mila, how did she tell you that she had brain cancer?

The first time, well, she mentioned it, we were going to a picnic downtown and

just driving along highway, she just casually says, oh, by the way, I have brain cancer.

And

I, you know, I.

don't know how to react.

I tell her that I'm supportive, whatever she needs.

At that time, I had not noticed any symptoms, but following that, yes, symptoms started to show.

What was her prognosis when she told you this?

At this point, they had a good prognosis for her.

They said that her chances were very high.

They weren't super concerned about it.

Obviously, she needed to start treatment, but they thought that she would make it.

And to mention, up to this point, this was her fourth tumor in her whole life.

So this was a repetitive thing.

She kept developing brain tumors.

And this one they thought they were going to heal so at what point did you two become romantically involved it was probably within about two months of when we initially met her her and her girlfriend broke up her girlfriend's from iceland and she moved back to iceland and so they broke up and we got together and how was your relationship with each other

outside of the outside of the cancer situation?

Yeah, outside of her being sick.

It was good.

Being with her felt natural.

It was my first intimate relationship with a woman.

I'd known since I was 12 that I was gay, but I hadn't really been around people that were also gay.

So I hadn't had the opportunity yet.

So it just felt, it's probably the most me I had felt ever.

Your first being with the right person.

Yeah, being with somebody that I felt I could trust.

She was goofy and passionate and she just liked to have fun.

And I'm much more of a serious person.

So, for her to have sort of balance me out in that way was really refreshing.

And

I don't know, we just went together.

So, I mean, we just kept hanging out, we kept spending time together.

And then she had told me that

during treatment, the tumor we were currently dealing with had shrunk small enough that they were no longer overly concerned.

So

that was a huge relief.

And we found this out because my mom and I had invited her to dinner.

And so we're at the restaurant eating and she says she needs to step away.

She has a phone call.

So she steps away, comes back and she's all smiles and excited.

And she says that was her doctor.

And they just call to tell her that she's in the clear.

So we spent the night celebrating

and like like high-fiving.

Wow.

That's like a movie.

And if she's having, if she's having dinner with your mom, that must mean that you guys were pretty serious.

Yeah.

I mean, my whole family knew about her situation.

They knew that we were together.

They had no issues.

They were all very supportive and they were supportive of her.

They were there for her.

What about her family?

Like, were you meeting her family?

Were you talking to them?

What was the interaction with them like?

I never met her family.

She did not talk to them much because they were very against the fact that she was gay.

And so she tried to not involve them in much.

Her family didn't know.

That she was gay or that she had cancer.

That she had cancer.

What?

She knew that if she told her parents, they would pull her out of school.

And she really didn't want that.

So she was trying to handle everything on her own.

That was the reasoning she gave you.

Where are you guys living during this?

Are you living in the same place or are you looking far apart?

Yeah, how far?

How far?

So is this takes place over the summer so she is juggling between the town that she goes to college in and the town that her parents live in which are like three hours apart

so she's either if it's the weekends she's at her parents working for them and during the week she kind of stays in the college town I live in neither.

I live about an hour and a half from her college town and four hours from where her parents live.

Long distance.

Okay.

So she's not estranged from her family.

She's just doesn't want to, she's telling you, she just doesn't want to share this specific information because

she's worried they'll make her quit school and she wants to carry on with school.

Right.

Okay.

And also, if I was dating someone and they were like, and my family doesn't accept me, I would be like, okay, no questions asked.

Like, you don't want a relationship with them or you don't want to tell them stuff.

I get it.

Like, right.

There's a lot of precedent there for people in queer relationships.

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, that's the whole thing about the story, though.

If somebody tells you they have cancer, you don't say, what?

Do you really, though?

Word to the wise.

Yeah, that's probably not the best initial response.

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So she gets a clear prognosis.

Like at some point, like she gets that call, you're at dinner.

The cancer is gone.

So are you just, you're so relieved?

And then, I mean,

has she still been mostly appearing healthy throughout that time?

Or were you starting to see some symptoms even throughout that time?

At this point, she's still mostly fine.

It's after she's given the all clear.

We have about a month or two before she gets diagnosed with her fifth and final brain tumor.

This one is terminal and it's called a GBM, glioblastoma multiformate.

This is odds are terminal.

That's your chances.

It's one of the most aggressive forms of brain tumors.

Oh man.

And I was devastated.

She actually told me in person

and I sobbed uncontrollably.

I absolutely lost my shit.

And she was very matter of fact about it, as if she had come to terms with it.

She accepted it.

This was going to be her fate, always having brain tumors, I guess.

And I didn't know how to cope.

So when we found that out, then things started to spiral.

She was throwing up from chemo and radiation.

Her hair was falling out.

She'd have bruises and wounds on her arms where the IVs were or, you know, her stuff for her chemo.

So at this point, now that she's back in chemo and radiation, it's very aggressive treatment.

She's sick all the time.

I am either commuting back and forth to her college town to take care of her her after treatment, or

she's getting treatment in my city.

And do you take her to treatment ever?

No, she won't let me.

Okay.

But she was visibly, like you visibly, like visibly she was sick.

Like she, her, the things, all the things, okay?

Yes.

Yes.

She was, I held her hair while she threw up.

I saw her hair falling out.

It was the whole, the whole thing.

What are you doing at this time?

You're still in school at this time?

I mean, that's, that's really intense to be that young and the role of like someone's full-on caregiver.

Right.

So I'm in community college at the time in my town, and I'm running my mom's company.

Oh, my.

So I'm juggling between

working full-time, going to school, and commuting back and forth to take care of her.

My professors knew, everybody knew about it.

They knew that I might have to pick up and leave or take a test at a later date.

And they were all very accommodating.

But once it became terminal and we got to this level of care that was needed that I couldn't provide on my own without supports, no one else knew.

So, sorry, so even at that point, she was saying that she was not telling her family.

She was not telling other people.

And so, even besides her parents, she was just not telling anyone else.

Just you, literally, just you.

Me and my family.

What was her reasoning for that?

Her biggest thing was that she didn't want

other people to feel like they needed to step up and take care of her.

Just you, huh?

Yeah.

Just all you, just 100% you.

Oh, boy.

Yeah.

So we actually break up at this time because I can't handle being present for her as a caretaker, as a lover, and, you know, everything else in between that I'm doing.

So she still means.

Well, that's a lot.

She still means the world to me.

And I let her know, you know, this is, this doesn't mean that I don't care about you, but I need to take something off my plate.

If we could just go back to best friends for now, that would be really helpful for me.

And she was supportive of that.

She understood that I might have bitten off more than I could chew at this point.

So she's going to treatments.

She's texting me saying, hey, I'm coming into the city.

I have treatment.

And I'll be done in about 30 minutes.

Do you want to get together?

hang out or I can spend the night at your place and you know we would just figure out how we could be together after her treatment and I guess I should also mention that

her oncologist is her

ex-girlfriend's mom.

I'm sorry, what?

The one from Iceland?

What?

Is the oncologist in Iceland as well?

No, right?

The oncologist is here in the United States?

The oncologist is here living in my city.

Oh, boy.

And they are from Iceland, but she practices here.

And her daughter moved back to Iceland after they broke up.

And I mentioned this because the doctor would communicate with me.

Wait, what?

Really?

Which now, which now I know is not a thing.

Yeah, I was like, wait, what?

It's not a thing.

Yeah, at the time.

Because you'd only listen to

because I'm not family.

Well, I suppose you can give someone permission.

It's usually either a spouse or a family member.

I mean, I suppose there is some context here for if you're in a queer relationship and you're on the outs with your family, which we question mark whether she was completely that or not, right?

You might put a girlfriend or close friend as your point of contact for a medical person, right?

Sure.

That's there's circumstances under which that's

unusual.

It sounds crazy, but this,

especially if you are someone, this is a patient that this doctor knows personally.

Not that that's right, but.

Right.

But I think you can authorize.

I mean, I think I'm just thinking about like the forms you fill out when you go to the doctor.

You know, like, yeah, like I put my husband there, obviously, but like it seems that you could authorize someone else.

And, you know, that whole concept of like even chosen family for people in queer relationships, right?

That you people, other people might be filling those roles if you have a strained relationship with your family.

But yeah, it seems unusual.

Unusual.

It's a good question.

So I was put on the medical release form as somebody that they should contact if anything were to happen or if they have to execute her DNR or any other situation where I would need to be notified.

Oh, that's intense.

You're 20.

Okay.

Yikes.

So this is it's a lot.

And I'm still, I'm basically her caretaker.

So after her treatment, if she didn't stay in my city, I would go to her college town and stay with her and take care of her through all the side effects of the chemo and radiation.

So she was really sick during this time, sounds like.

And she was very sick.

Yeah.

So what was her, had they given her a prognosis in terms of like how long she had?

She had a couple months.

It's inoperable because the tumor is behind the eye.

So they can't get to it.

So the treatment was really just to give her as much extra time as they could.

It was, she was never going to be cancer-free.

Wow.

That's awful.

And just emotionally for you, like, I mean, that must have taken a huge toll on you, just regardless of whether or not she's your like official girlfriend or whatever, you're still really invested.

And I mean, just caretaking on that level takes a huge toll.

I mean, you're a hospice, essentially.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was exhausted.

I was overwhelmed, but I also

didn't feel it was right to leave somebody you care about in a time of need.

And especially being one of the few people that knows.

Yeah, you have no choice.

What am I going to do?

Of course.

Yeah.

I'm stuck.

Did you know other friends of hers or like, I mean, did you anyone?

Yeah.

Were you guys mostly hanging out one-on-one or with your family?

Or were like, were there other people around in this?

in this scenario?

I knew her whole friend group.

She lived with her roommate slash best friend in in her college town and they would have parties and people would come over and we'd all hang out if she was feeling well enough.

So they know she's sick.

No.

Oh, they don't know she's sick.

What do they think when her hair falls out?

Nobody knows

that she was like.

So, but it's not happening in front of other people.

She's not brushing her hair or pulling on her hair in front of other people.

So, you know, I don't walk around in chunks or just.

Okay, so it wasn't like huge bald patches.

It was like you would be with her and she'd like pull out.

It would come out.

Okay.

Okay.

And then you're seeing like her vomit and she has IV bruises on her arms and stuff like that.

So sort of visible to you because you're this intimate person, but like maybe not like a blaring red signal to other people that she's sick.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

And I mean, did you ever sort of press her on maybe you should tell your roommate, maybe you should tell?

I mean, that's like to have the idea of like you being the singular person that's carrying this burden and like being the person person the doctor is going to call to enforce like a DNR.

Yeah.

That is, that's so much to put on a person that's not even, I mean, I would think like the roommate would be the natural sort of contact because they're with her all the time.

You know, yeah, if she, she's really that sick.

I mean, and if she's going to die in two months, that's, you know, that's something that you would want to tell people in your life, presumably.

Did you like have those conversations with her where you pressed her?

Did you just feel like she's so sick and it's such a crisis, I really can't press her on any of this.

And I just don't feel like entitled to press her on this?

I did bring it up several times.

And

with increasing severity each time, you know, like first time, we need to talk about this.

We need to tell somebody else.

I need to know that somebody can be there for you.

Then it goes to,

I

am serious.

You need to tell your roommate because she's the only one that's where you're at 90% of the time.

And she told me that she would tell her once I left.

I know, my parents know,

her ex-girlfriend knows.

Her ex-girlfriend texts me constantly to check up on her.

How's she doing?

All of this stuff.

The doctors are texting me.

They are updating me when she's.

when treatment doesn't go well and they have to admit her to the hospital and all of this stuff.

So I do have people that are doctors text, but I don't.

Sometimes.

that is a thing.

Again, I don't, I don't know that.

Yeah, that sounds a little unusual.

I don't know if they never text, but.

Well, let's back up.

I will tell.

I know they know how to text.

You know what I mean.

I was just sitting here trying to think if I've ever gone to.

I'm going to figure out a phone.

Doctors have some.

Yeah, I can't think of a time where a doctor.

I mean, I guess like they have their little like telehealth systems.

Right.

I guess that's what sometimes those come through text, but it wouldn't be like, yeah, usually they use like the secure portals and stuff to message.

So you're just getting like regular old text messages from an oncologist that's like, hey, this is how she's doing.

This is blah, blah, blah.

Right.

So

these are the things that are raising red flags for me.

And I will read you one of the texts from the doctor.

Oh, yes, please.

She comes with receipts.

I love it.

She got the receipts.

So, hi, Nila.

This is Dr.

Aquino.

Nora is also in psychic doctor care for suicidal thoughts.

Right now, she is under our high risk watch, which means her personal belongings have been taken.

That's why I am talking to you instead of her.

She is in restraints and she is being monitored at all times.

The good news is she came in for help, which is a good sign.

Her emergency contacts and power of attorney have been contacted.

Dr.

Scott, this is her oncologist,

will be arriving for work by five anyways, so she will be here as well.

Her parents are on their way, but they will not be allowed to see her at this point until her condition medically becomes more stable.

The goal after we get her to calm down and talk normally is to release her into the care of her parents.

The best thing for her will to be around friends or family.

In her case, I will suggest her being taken to her college town to be around friends rather than family.

Unfortunately, suicide and suicidal thoughts are fairly common with terminally ill patients, especially those with urological problems.

They start to lose control, so they have the desire to end things on their own terms.

Again, it is technically very illegal for me to share this information, but we all know you are very important to her.

So we will keep you updated.

She will be able to have her belongings back when she becomes more mentally stable.

Please keep in mind that this is normal and does not mean she'll be this depressed the rest of her life.

Nora is very special, and we all care about her very much.

We will take good care of her.

I think Nora is an incredible person, and she will make it through this tough night.

Let me know if you have any further.

I'm so

wait.

So, so this is illegal.

She's saying this is technically very illegal.

So, we are talking HIPAA violations now that this document, plus, quite a lot of commentary there on the idea.

In writing, oh my god, yeah, in writing, very easy to

wow what did you think when so this is a text message you're getting cold right from a number you don't know and this is not a doctor that you've previously been in contact with so you're just getting this message like boom did you know that she was at the hospital when you got this message or this is how you learned that she was in psychiatric inpatient allegedly I don't remember on this specific text.

There's multiples, but I don't remember specifically specifically on this one.

I do know that at one point she was having intense pain behind her eye where the tumor is located, and she kept talking about gouging it out because they can't take it out.

And she just wanted to be done with the pain.

So she wanted to stab something in her eye to pull it out or gouge it out.

And she ended up going to the emergency room often because of the pain.

So she would go for pain treatment or pain management.

And I would,

it usually happens when she was staying at my place and I would wake up and she would be standing over me,

staring at me.

And I would say, Nora, what the fuck are you doing?

And she'd say,

I'm in a lot of pain.

I didn't want to wake you, but I need to go to the ER.

And I'd offer to take her and she'd tell me, she doesn't want me to see her this way.

So she'd take herself and then she'd end up in psychiatric unit or something else for suicidal books.

And then someone else would let you know.

I would get either a text from her ex-girlfriend letting me know that she was back in it in a mental hospital or a doctor.

Did it make you uncomfortable that her ex-girlfriend was communicating with you or was that okay?

I was fine with it because From what I understood, they were very close and they were together for a long time.

And she's like dying.

They didn't break up on me.

No, she's dying

so and and at this point you're not romantically involved with nora you're still obviously really intimate because she is sticking over you watching you sleep which is an alarming thing to do and sort of almost doesn't like that piece of it doesn't quite add up right because if she doesn't want to wake you up because she doesn't want you to like she doesn't want to wake you up but because she doesn't want you to see her like this but she's standing over you while you stay waking you up until you wake up

so that she can impart this information to you and then sort of refuse to let you go to the hospital with her, even though she's in such dire straits.

And had you had any experience with like, I mean, this is all just extremely intense stuff at any age to be dealing with, but I mean, so on top of the cancer stuff, you're dealing with someone who's having suicidal ideations, which is very scary.

And that's kind of one of those things that like.

when you have someone that you know is in that situation, you're sort of worried about them all the time, right?

Like you're, they're in the back, like it's that background fear that you're going to get a phone call kind of all the time.

I mean, that must have been so draining.

And like, did you have, I mean,

had you ever had someone close to you be, you know, go through suicidal aviations?

Like, did you have any

resources or ability or support on yourself to be able to deal with that situation?

That's incredibly hard.

Yeah.

So

at this point,

I have already been in two mental hospitals myself for suicide.

I'm sorry.

So it wasn't a big deal to me.

I mean, it's a big deal, right?

Suicide ever is a big deal.

But I'm still with it.

Somebody sharing this information with me, right?

It wasn't overwhelming because I've been there.

So I'm rolling with the punches.

I've gone through treatment.

I want to help you.

I have tools in my pocket.

Yeah, you're like, okay, let's go.

Let's get to work.

Yeah.

And it just made sense that she would tell me being somebody that had experienced it.

Was that an experience that you had talked to her about previously?

She knew.

I'm very open with this just because I don't think I think it's very taboo.

Society makes it very taboo.

And so I'm hoping to talk about it.

And

so she knew.

How long have you two been involved at this point in the story?

So you're getting these texts.

She's having suicidal ideations.

She's deteriorating.

How long does this whole thing go on?

How long have you guys been in touch at this point?

Right.

So I think we're hitting about the six month mark right now.

And she started having memory loss because of the growth of the tumor.

So then I also became the person that was reminding her of things she was forgetting.

And what did that look like?

She would text me and she'd say,

I have a note in my phone that says you're important to me, but I don't know why.

I can't remember who you are.

Oh, so I'm like dementia, dementia.

symptoms essentially.

Oh my God.

So it's not like forgetting appointments.

It's forgetting Mila.

It's forgetting.

Are these random pieces of amnesia?

But then she'd be like, oh, yeah, that's right.

Hey, girl, hey.

Or was it just like 51st dates you had to like re-remind her?

It was.

I mean, I had to constantly remind her who I am, who her family is, things that are important to her.

Was there any part during that where she like messed up and you were like, wait, that's really weird?

Or did you not?

Like nothing.

She never messed up.

Okay.

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So, things kind of really start to get out of control.

One, one night, she leaves my house and she says that she's going to go home.

And the next day, she's in Pensacola, Florida.

What's in Pensacola?

What state?

Sorry, what state are you guys in during this time?

Texas.

Oh, so it's from Texas to Pensacola.

She drove to Florida.

12 hours?

Yeah.

So she has a huge love for the ocean.

So for whatever reason, she wanted to go to Pensacola and she ended up in Pensacola.

And at this point, she's telling me she doesn't remember why she went to Pensacola.

They got the ocean in Texas.

I know, I'm not good at geometry, but she got the ocean over there.

The Gulf Coast was that was not going to cut it.

She needed ocean, ocean.

She forgot about that.

She needed Florida.

She's like, we're going straight to the Atlantic.

Yeah.

So at the same time that I'm finding out she's in Pensacola, her ex-girlfriend texts me and says that Nora contacted her and was having a meltdown because she ended up in Pensacola and she doesn't know who she is.

Oh, so the girl, the ex-girlfriend tells you not Nora.

Nora's just calls Iceland to tell them that she's in Pensacola.

Oh,

and Iceland calls you.

Okay.

Perfect.

Normal.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So then.

Hannah, you write in this diagram?

I literally, I love that you said that as I quietly pulled out my notepad, knowing I needed backup.

Mackenzie knows me so well.

I always have to write a diagram.

She's got the red string just connecting on the back of the bag.

I know.

Record behind me to pinpoint.

Okay, sorry.

Okay, I got my notes.

I got my notes.

So girlfriend flies back and brings her back to Texas.

Iceland to Pensacola.

A long flight, I'm assuming.

Yeah.

Okay.

And at this point, I'm pissed.

So I'm mad because i can get to you quicker than she can why didn't you call me now this is weird now i'm the math ain't mathin like okay this is this is this is going too far this doesn't make sense to me and i ask the ex-girlfriend

why did she call you i'm i'm here i'm literally here in the same country And she said that she didn't want to overwhelm me.

Well, at this point, you've been overwhelming me.

Over, she knew you five minutes and overwhelmed you.

What?

All of a sudden, she has boundaries?

Has yeah, has not been a concern up until this point, but just this was too much.

The Pensacola was too much.

So Trina from Iceland comes, drives her back to Texas.

Yeah.

And

I go to her home.

So is Trina there?

Is Trina there when you get there?

Do you finally meet Iceland girlfriend?

I have never met Trina.

No.

So she flies from Iceland just to get this totally normal pattern of behavior down.

So she drives from Iceland to Ketrila.

Iceland?

No, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

She doesn't know geography.

She takes, she takes a boat.

She takes a boat from, no, she, she takes a plane from Iceland to Pensacola,

rents a car or takes her car,

gets in Nora's car with Nora, drives Nora back to Texas, and then immediately, no further questions, flies back from Texas to Iceland.

her mission having been completed at that point.

That's the story.

I don't know.

But that's what we're assuming, right?

Because she is, she, Trina has disappeared.

Trina is not on the scene.

I don't know where Trina went at this point, right?

Okay.

Trina is gone.

So I go to her home and I tell her because her best friend is home, they're roommates.

I tell her, I need you to let her in on this because this is, you can't keep up.

I need to know that there's somebody local that can take care of you if I can't make it.

She told me that she would tell her once I had left.

She told me this before.

So I told her, absolutely not.

I have to see you.

Tell her because you've pulled this one before and she still doesn't know.

So she goes into the kitchen.

She tells her best friend who collapses to the ground and sobs.

And she gets on the ground with her and she holds her.

And then once that's done, she walks back to her room.

Nora does, back to where I am, and very eerily says, I I think you should leave.

And I said, I'm out.

Oh my gosh.

It's creepy.

I, everything about the way she said it to me was

wrong.

Off.

Immediately, all the alarms were going off.

I got chills.

Hold on.

I got to get a sweater.

I got chills.

But continues to take a lap.

I mean, yeah, that's, how did you feel?

Did you, yeah, did you just have like a feeling of like you said, like it just felt wrong?

Or were you like betrayed?

Like everything I've done for you.

No, I didn't feel betrayed.

In my head,

I knew that leaving was the right decision.

I knew if I stayed, that something bad was going to happen.

I could feel it.

I could feel it in my loins that we call that femtuition when you feel it in your loins.

Yeah.

I had no idea what was going on.

I thought maybe she's overwhelmed with a reaction.

That's what I was a friend and she wants to be alone.

Maybe she's angry at you that you made her tell her or like, yeah, okay.

so the way that she told me, I knew I needed to leave, and so I did.

And I'm driving home an hour and a half back to my city.

And I get a text

and it says, This is Dr.

Iceland.

I haven't been.

This is Dr.

Iceland.

No, it's Nora.

It's Nora.

I haven't been honest with you.

I do not know if I am terminal.

This seriously could be completely mental.

What?

Oh,

I'm sorry.

What?

Whoa.

I said,

what?

And

I told her, my first thought is she's really realizing that this is terminal and maybe she's just

going down some rabbit hole.

Yeah.

So I told her, don't do anything, stupid.

I'm coming back.

I'm turning around.

And she says, no, no, no, no.

I'm serious.

I don't know if I have brain cancer.

I kept feeling sick and assumed the worst.

And I said,

you better be joking.

Her response was, I was scared.

And that is no excuse, but it was wrong of me to lie to you.

And I know.

So

I don't know how I have her mom's phone number, but I say, bro, you're losing it.

I am calling your mom and telling her that you're unhinged.

So I call her mom and I say, we need to talk about Nora's brain cancer.

She's losing it.

And she said, what cancer?

Nora's never had cancer.

Never had it.

Oh my God.

Okay.

So then what do you do?

Yeah.

What happens next?

Honestly, at that exact moment, I called my mom because I had to pull over on the side of the highway because I'm distraught.

I don't even know how to, like, it makes me want to cry right now.

I don't know how to react.

So I call my mom.

She answers and I'm just screaming.

I'm like, she lied to me.

She lied to me.

And she's like, you need to slow down and tell me what you're talking about.

And I was like, it's all a lie.

Like, I was just losing it.

And I'm honestly thinking at this point, I'm probably going to end up back in the hospital because I immediately, it's nine months of bullshit that have just hit me.

I'm on the side of the highway.

It's pitch black.

I have nobody to support me or be there for me.

It's like the world's upside down.

Everything you thought your whole life was.

Everything collapsed.

Exactly.

So

I go home because what else am I going to do?

I call her roommate because I could see.

Yeah.

Nora is either very sick with cancer and unhinged or mentally sick and unhinged.

Either way, I didn't think that her roommate was safe.

So I called her and I told her the situation and I said, you need to leave.

I need you to pack a bag.

I need you to trust me.

And I need you to go stay somewhere else for the night.

And she listens to me.

She does.

And what did she, did she tell you anything about that conversation that she just had with Nora?

Did Nora actually not that I can recall?

So do you know if Nora actually told her that she had cancer or was that conversation just about?

Oh, I watched her tell her.

Okay, you did.

Okay.

So wait.

Okay.

So you know for sure she said, I've got cancer.

So that, that is what, that wasn't like, oh, your dog's dead.

And it was just like a completely other conversation.

Okay.

So the roommate at this point had been pulled into the cancer lie.

No, yeah.

I watched her.

I heard her say, I have terminal cancer.

And then literally like like the next day, you're turning around.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

Okay.

Oh, my God.

Okay.

So roommate leaves.

So I go home.

I finished driving home.

And I believe at this point I called Nora because I'm confused.

And I asked her, are you serious?

She says, yes, this is all made up.

And

I asked her why she does it.

Why did you do this to me?

And she said, I love you.

I love the attention you gave me.

And I didn't want to lose you.

So I thought that I guess she thought that this would be the best way to keep me.

And then I'm still in communication with her mom, because obviously I've looped her in at this point.

And so my mom gets involved.

The moms are coming.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

I would too.

So my mom is talking to her mom and telling her.

We're going for a restraining order.

Your daughter is not allowed to come anywhere near mine.

She didn't believe me that this had happened.

So I took screenshots of our entire nine months.

Nora's mom.

Yeah, so that was my question.

What was Nora's mom's reaction to like, hey, your daughter's been pretending to have brain cancer for the last nine months?

She was just confused on what I was talking about.

So I told her I had proof and I screenshotted our text messages for nine months and I sent her a whole file.

And I mean, it included everything.

She would talk shit about her parents because they didn't support her.

I mean, it was raw.

And I sent it to her mom, and her mom had to read all of that.

And she let me know that she spoke to her and

she's not to have any contact with me.

Please don't ruin her life by getting a restraining order.

So they put her in a hospital.

They put her in a mental hospital.

From what her mom tells me, she's admitted for three days

and then released.

And the doctor says that she was acting weird because her epilepsy medication, which she really is epileptic, was out of balance and making her acting weird.

Andrew's face.

So, yes.

The epilepsy diagnosis, was that reported to you by Nora?

Yeah, but I actually, I helped her through a lot of her.

Oh, interesting.

Did you witness her having seizures?

Yes, often.

Oh, okay.

And she was medicated.

I saw the medication.

Okay.

So that is a for sure thing.

Is that a common fake epilepsy?

Yes.

I mean, almost ubiquitous in these cases.

But I would say epilepsy and other disorders that involve seizures are almost ubiquitous in cases of either Munchausen or Munchausen by proxy.

However, usually, and of course, always like the most confusing things, I think one of the most confusing things to sort out when you're in the aftermath of this is maybe she really does have epilepsy, right?

Like, and that's a real condition.

It doesn't mean that the rest of the things were real.

And so you're trying to sort through, like, just because someone has one legitimate health condition doesn't mean they're not lying about the others, right?

So it's totally possible that people legitimately have epilepsy.

Usually in these cases, when someone is lying about epilepsy, what it will come down to is no one else has ever seen them have a seizure.

Or when a person is saying, or like, if it's a kid, they'll say, oh, she has these episodes.

Like my child has these episodes that are seizures.

And like seizures can have this huge range of symptoms.

So someone can be having a grandma seizure.

And that's what we think of like in the movies, like on the the ground shaking.

You know, if you've seen, I have had a friend that also had a seizure disorder and I've seen one of those.

It's very, very scary.

But they can also manifest as like someone freezing or staring into space for a couple of seconds.

So like, I know because I have a kid that like kids kind of do that anyway.

I mean, like, they're like my six-year-old sometimes will be like, babe, Fiona, like, what are you doing?

You know, so if I was six years, like, I do that anyway.

Yeah, I mean,

people do it, but like, especially little kids, right?

Like, they get kind of dreamy.

And so, like, a lot of times people will say like, oh, well, that's her seizure.

But then they also describe when no one else is with her.

I see my child having, you know, these huge epileptic fits.

And like, I have taken her in the emergency room.

But if you actually saw her having, now that's not to say that the seizure, the symptoms of a seizure could not be faked, but it seems like if you're seeing like real stuff, that would be harder to fake.

Wow that you're saying that I never saw her have a seizure in front of other people, only when I was around.

And I knew she was epileptic before I knew she had brain cancer.

So I don't know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, and with the medication thing, you know, just to tell you again for like epilepsy in particular, and I think this is why there's just these conditions.

And I always want to preface this by saying that like many, many people have these conditions, really.

And this is not to cast any doubt on like, you don't, again, like, you don't want to live in my brain where like when people say they have something, I go, do you?

I mean, obviously most of the time, if someone tells you they have epilepsy or brain cancer.

they do.

But, you know, with epilepsy, like people can easily get medications for it because they go in and they say, you know, I have this.

These are my symptoms.

This is what I'm having.

You're not going to, they can hook you up to what's called, I think, an EEG, where they monitor your brain activity.

If you have a, happen to have a seizure while you're in the office, they can catch that and say, oh, this is a seizure, this is something else.

But that's not necessarily going to happen while you're in the doctor's office, right?

Seizures are not.

predictable.

So they will still give someone medication for a seizure if they are reporting that they're having seizures.

So much of what doctors do is based on our symptoms, right?

So like if you're going in and you're saying, I'm having these seizures, other people, you know, it's like, I fell on the floor, I had this, you describe your symptoms.

Most people are not going to go and tell the doctor that so that they can get on seizure medication.

However, if you're a person who engages in these behaviors, you do.

So that's one of the things that I think like is so disorienting about being around someone like that.

Maybe you are seeing seizures.

Maybe you are seeing medication bottles that seem to correspond to their condition.

And you're like, no, no, that's a real prescription bottle.

You're right.

It is a real prescription bottle.

It's a real prescription from a real doctor, but it's for a fake thing.

So it is in like you can't possibly know.

No, it's very, very hard to sort out.

And I don't think in any cases you like, I think, you know, I certainly, this is my background with my sister.

There are some things I definitely know she lied about.

There's a whole other group of things where I'm like, I will never know.

That could very easily be a lie.

That could also be true.

And it's just like question mark.

And that's part of what this makes this so maddening.

So.

Sorry, just to take us back into the story.

So she tells you, because also I think like this detail sounds very suspicious to me that you would be checked out of a psych ward because you're having a strange reaction to your seizure medication.

And like a doctor at a psych ward is saying, you're acting really strange.

Like, what was your first clue, fella?

You know what I mean?

You're not going to boot somebody with a seizure disorder out of the psych ward because that would be a reason to keep someone inpatient, not a reason to send someone home.

Like you're familiar with what to do when something like that happens.

Like you, you're just pain.

Yeah.

I mean, that just doesn't.

And again, it could be that she really does have a seizure disorder.

And that's not the real reason she was released from the psych ward right like there's you never know which which parts a lie but so that's the story she gives you is that she's having an off reaction to her epileptic medicine medicine and so they send her home from the psych ward yes they send her home and that's the last i ever hear of her or

anything

that's it that's it that's it that's all done that's all wait so what about What about these other people you were corresponding about?

What about like the doctors that you were talking to?

What about Iceland girlfriend?

Like, do you ever close the loop with any of these people?

Like, can we call her?

What's the number?

Can you send Mackenzie?

Yeah, I want Mackenzie to find them.

So their burner phones.

Did the ex-girlfriend and her oncologist mom and these other doctors, did they

exist and that wasn't really them?

Or do they not exist at all?

Or do you not know?

I have no idea.

And you didn't talk on the phone with Trina or these doctors.

It's all texts.

Just texts.

All just texts.

Oh my gosh.

I'm imagining Nora trying to do like an Icelandic accent, which I don't couldn't even tell you what it is.

But what about, can you call the roommate and be like, yo, have you heard anything?

What's going on?

Yeah, do you, do you have any further communication with the roommate or this just kind of like, it's just a shut door?

I have her roommate on social media, but honestly, this is 10 years ago.

It's not something I want to reopen.

I do know.

that my brother saw her at a mutual friend's wedding not too long ago and she is married and has a kid.

She's married to a woman and has a kid did she have any diseases or did she say she did was she dead from brain cancer or no

i don't think that my brother really wanted to engage with her no hell no i wouldn't either

the reason i ask is we've had one other case on the data detectives that involved munchausen's andrea obviously has experience i remember in that one she did look up like long later that they were just like kind of moved on to the next person and did it again And I don't know if that's.

Yeah.

So

I am very curious to know if I'm the only person I feel like I am.

I don't think she would have gotten married and had a kid if somebody thought she was terminally ill.

And I'm pretty sure that she was extremely unhinged.

And the terminal part of it was, I'm going to have to kill myself before she figures out that I'm lying.

So I don't think that that's something feasible for her to continue in every relationship.

But

the most upsetting part for me is that there's no repercussion for her.

There's no, nothing happens to her.

I have to live with it.

I have to deal with this and unpack it.

And

she gets to go to a mental hospital for three days, get released, and go on the.

And she's just out here all willy-nilly, just happy as a clam and just.

Lord bless it.

Do you know anything about Munchausen syndrome, also known as factor disorder imposed on self?

Is that something that you are familiar with?

Yes, I know a little bit about it.

So,

of course, with the caveat that I am not a psychiatrist, I do have a lot of expertise in the subject, but and it would be impossible to like diagnose this based on, you know, just the story, but it certainly sounds like it has all of the hallmarks.

So, I mean, I will tell you some things from my experience, and this is also something I have personal experience with.

My sister engaged in these behaviors before she had children, and then unfortunately, I believe it it has also become much housed in biprox behaviors, which is when someone does these things to someone else.

So I will tell you that I know exactly how you feel.

I know what that betrayal feels like.

I know how disorienting that is.

That moment of revelation when she texts you and you're in the car.

Like I remember that moment in my own life.

And that was, for me, that was my, that was getting a call from my father and being told that the pregnancy that my sister had just lost six months in, that I had talked to her every day while she was in the hospital and I had mourned these two baby girls that were coming and we had bought things for them and I had felt them kick in her belly, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, that none of that had been real.

And

it broke my brain.

It made me doubt myself in like this deep way that.

I just felt like, how could I possibly have bought into this thing?

It was never real.

Why would someone do this?

I was so hurt.

I was so betrayed.

I did not end my relationship with my sister until many years later.

So I still hung in there.

It's very, very hard to explain how disorienting and hurtful that is unless you have been through something like it.

So I just want to say to you, Mila, I'm so sorry that this happened to you.

I think that this especially happens to people who are very caring and very empathetic.

I think they are the most likely to get roped into this kind of behavior.

And if you think you are the only person that she has done this to, you are not and they do not stop this behavior it is an incredibly compulsive behavior there is no amount of consequences that could deter them from this behavior that's like one of the things that we do know about it so the idea that she's no longer engaging in this behaviors is not plausible i really feel for this person who ended up marrying her

I feel like I should be relieved that it's not just me, but now I feel shitty for them.

Yeah, I mean, it's an incredibly wide swath of destruction.

And that's one of of the things that always gets me about these cases, right?

And what's really interesting is like, I think with these things, like, obviously she told a lot of lies and are compulsive lies.

And also, just to say, this was something really important for me to understand as I was processing this,

you know, in my own life, they understand what they're doing, right?

They're not suffering from delusions.

They're not hypochondriacs.

So this thing of like, I was really sick and I just thought it was brain cancer.

She didn't.

She understood that she was lying.

She understood that she was pulling off a deceit.

She was probably looking up symptoms.

She was probably, you know, like, if she had epileptic medication, if she didn't really have epilepsy, that means she was engaging with it with her medical professionals too.

So it's a really elaborate behavior and very involved, and it's deliberate and it's knowing, right?

So it's not, there is a mental disorder underlying, but I think it's kind of more analogous to someone having a personality disorder than someone having like a mental illness that's causing them to be confused about reality.

And also, it's interesting that she told you, I did this because I liked the attention that I got from you.

That was honest, probably, right?

Scarily honest.

It is scarily honest.

And I found this is like, this is kind of true.

The reason my podcast is called Nobody Should Believe Me is that's something Hope Yubara, who was the first perpetrator that I covered, also created an extremely elaborate eight-year-long cancer hoax that she convinced her entire community, all of her family, they had, you know, that she had her casket.

She went with her mom to pick out her casket.

I mean, just like incredibly elaborate, right?

An interviewer was interviewing her from jail.

She did time for her for abusing her kids.

And he said, I hope you've lied about everything else.

Why should anyone believe you?

And she said, you shouldn't.

No one should believe me.

And it's like, so Nora almost had that like analogous moment of honesty, right?

Where you're like, why did you do this?

And she said, I did it because I didn't want you to, like, I didn't want to lose you.

And I wanted your attention, right?

And that was a very honest.

I mean, like,

people like this and like you said, like, she wouldn't have needed to do any of that to get you in your life.

You wanted to be in her life.

You were attracted to her.

You were into her.

But like, I think the really sad thing about people who engage in these behaviors is this is like a maladaptive coping mechanism, right?

It's a, it's a way to try and get their emotional needs met that is ultimately really destructive.

And so as much as it seems like she went on and lived her life happily, like people who do these things do not go on to lead happy lives.

They go on to leave.

you know, lead incredibly chaotic and destructive lives.

And that is really sad.

And I do wish we had more awareness and like more treatment for people so that they could stop hurting other people to get what they need.

But most of all, I'm just like, thank you so much for sharing your story.

I do think it is like such an isolating, like highly stigmatized thing.

And you're really brave for sharing this.

I know it's like, it's a hard thing to talk about.

You feel nuts and you feel kind of foolish.

And like, I felt all of those things.

Yeah.

I think the biggest impact for me is that I especially following the situation, it was really hard to trust anybody because, you know, she was pulling her hand out in front of me.

She was forcing herself to throw up in front of me.

She was self-inflicting wounds and showing them to me.

She wrote me a death letter to read when she died.

I cannot for the life of me find it, but it was a whole thing about like how much she cares about me.

And, you know, thanks for being there for me.

And I was just so, I was confused.

I didn't know who to trust.

I mean, it really at 20, it really kind of just

so

was literally my next question to you was following this.

How do you trust anybody or anything when right in front of your eyes, like you seen it with your own eyes, that she was physically going through this sickness, but it was all manifested by Munchausen?

So, how do you

in your brain, like going forward, how do you trust anybody?

What anybody tells you if you can't even believe your own eyes, you know?

Yeah, I didn't trust anybody for a long time.

I even went back to dating men because I thought women are just crazy.

I can't do this.

This is too much.

Is it something you feel like you've been able to process?

Or what has that sort of

it sounds like it had?

This happened a while ago.

Now, hopefully, you weren't permanently consigned to dating men, which, you know, I'm a straight woman.

I know, fortunately, I found a good one, but I know, I know that's not the best option, especially if you're attracted to women.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I did go back to dating women.

I am now married to my wife.

She's amazing.

That's so awesome.

But so I thought that I had dealt with all of this.

And then the podcast reached out to me.

And honestly, it's been really hard.

I thought that I had dealt with everything, but I think I kind of just compartmentalized it and put it in a box.

Well, because the surface is clean, right?

And then you don't realize that all of that underneath the rug, you lift up the rug and you're like, there it all went.

But on top, it's nice and clean.

And I'm really grateful that you're sharing this with us because I think a lot more people than we realize are either have experienced this or, and don't get me wrong, like I, a time or two have been like, I'm really sick.

Like, can you bring me some soup?

And really, I just want my husband's attention, right?

But this is like on a whole different level of, you know, mental that a lot of people can't grasp.

So I, I just, and it does happen.

And it's not your fault, obviously.

Yeah.

Well, and Mackenzie, you know, it's like, it's interesting that you say that where you're like, yeah, you, you are, you know, we all engage in a little bit of light illness exaggeration from time to time, right?

Or like, you know, if you have kids, like they'll be like, I don't want to go to school today because I'm so sick.

You know, it's like we all remember doing that when we were kids too, right?

And I think like.

it's good and important when you're trying to understand why people do this to kind of like ground it in that behavior.

Like we do, people do treat you special when you're sick.

And especially if you have something dramatic like terminal brain cancer, you know, people show up for you, right?

They give you all their attention and that does make you feel loved.

Like, I think we do kind of understand that emotional gratification that people get out of it.

And that feels really, really bad to have someone exploit that.

And the exploitation is the no.

Yeah.

Use it against you.

And yeah.

And I mean, I'm just, I'm so sorry that you've been through that.

And I, I went through that same process, you know, like I didn't,

this happened now for me.

I've been estranged from my sister for 14 years and it took took me a good eight or nine to be able to write about it, think about it, talk about it.

I just shoved it down for a long, long time because it's like the, you sort of, I think your brain isn't ready to deal with it for a while.

And when you start pulling on those threads of like, what does it mean about me that I got pulled into this?

And how do, you know, especially like, Mila, as you're describing, you know, but I saw it, but I saw it, right?

You're like, I saw her puking.

I saw her pulling out her hair.

My sister shaved her head in college and said her hair was falling out.

Like my you know again like

she looked pregnant during this time i thought i felt babies kick she said here feel the baby kick and i thought i feel the baby kick i'm like am i crazy like am i suffering from delusions like how did i get

You really question yourself and then you just say like, oh, what is my judgment that bad?

And I mean, it's interesting because even though mine didn't happen in the context of a romantic relationship, it really affected my romantic relationships for a long time because, again, that inability to trust.

And you sort of get this like paranoia of, you know, what if everything this person's telling me is a lie and you're sort of always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

And you're like, well, the last time, you know, you've, you felt safe, like to have someone violate your trust in that way and sort of take this really intangible thing.

You know, I think one of the things in particular with munchausen situations, like munchausen by proxy is a crime.

So, you know, theoretically, there could be criminal consequences and family court consequences.

There almost never are.

So that's certainly like you end up in the same situation.

But I think, especially with Munchausen cases, unless someone has defrauded someone out of a bunch of money, there's really no action you can take, right?

So, it doesn't feel like you can really get any justice for the harm that was done to you.

And it can even be hard to articulate exactly how it harmed you because this isn't like an everyday experience.

You know, a lot of people do experience betrayal, but this is a really specific kind where someone has involved you in this

fake world to such a degree that you like lived in that world with her for nine months and it's it's like truman showy yeah it becomes a really like difficult period of i mean i've found that it's like it there are periods of my life with my sister that are very difficult to make sense of because

i remember

being with her when she was pregnant.

I now know that she wasn't pregnant, but it doesn't change my memory of the experience.

So it's like, you remember being with Nora and supporting her when she was sick.

You remember watching her have these symptoms.

And the fact that you know that was a lie, just like it makes the memory not make sense.

You know, it's very disorienting.

Yeah, you can't undo it, right?

I, I remember everything as truth.

Right.

And then it's basically, I have this one story.

And then once that one stops, a new one starts of trying to

unravel everything that I just went through.

I'm so sorry that happened to you.

In itself, it's more than just.

a story.

Well, I also want to tell you that like, I know that, you know, there's something that I talk about with the community of professionals that I work with a lot is just like how underrecognized a phenomenon this is, like, both with, because people who engage in these behaviors by and large do not get help.

Like, they don't seek out help.

They don't, it's sort of like people who have narcissistic personality disorder, right?

Like, that's a thing that people have that's in the DSM and you can be diagnosed with it, but people don't get diagnosed with it because they don't think it's a problem.

They're not going into a therapist and saying, hey, I think I have narcissistic personality disorder.

So it's like, this isn't something that people usually want help with, right?

They don't, because they can't acknowledge the behavior.

There's like a lot of, you know, sort of complex shame and all that kind of stuff in some cases, but I mean, it's also just like a behavior that people are, they're sort of lying about everything.

So they're not going to necessarily just be held accountable and completely admit what they've done.

So it is really underrecognized.

And I think also the people who end up getting take advantage of, it's very isolating.

And you tend to feel a lot of shame and sort of turn it internally where you're just like, oh, why am I such a like, you know, why am I the sucker that got caught into this?

Or like, how did I, you know, especially if like you were talking to other people or you did fundraising for that person or whatever.

It's just this like, this huge blast zone of people gets caught in it.

And then like, no one talks about it.

So just you being here and being willing to like, you know, yeah, like rummage around in these old wounds, I know that's really hard.

And like, also just to say like, if you need any additional support, please feel free to reach out to me after this because I can help and we have support groups and all that kind of thing.

So happy to like, if that's, if that's helpful or whatever, you know, whatever you need.

But it's, yeah, it's, it's really, I know there's going to be people who are listening to this and hear, hear their own story and hear something analogous.

Absolutely does help to feel less alone.

You know, thank you so much.

That sense of community.

So just by, Mila, just by sharing your story, you just, you just keep on padding this sense of community and it just creates this really safe place for other people who are experiencing these things.

And you hear stories like this and you're like, no way, that doesn't really happen.

And you just don't realize how many people it does impact.

And you could be someone who, someone hears and they say, say, Oh my gosh, like I didn't realize, or I didn't know, or oh my gosh, just saying, I'm not crazy.

Yeah.

And like Andrea said, they feel less alone.

So, you sharing your story is just so brave and courageous.

And we, we're really grateful for you.

Thank you so, so much.

Well, thank you for having me.