True Story Media Presents: PRETEND

True Story Media.

Hello, it's Andrea and it is a big day over here because I know that so many of you are going to be excited about today's crossover.

Today on our True Story Media Presents series, we have none other than Javier Leyva from Pretend, who I know has many fans within the Nobody Should Believe Me audience.

Javier was one of my very first friends in the podcasting industry.

He has been a big supporter of the show from the jump and it is a genuine joy for me to announce that we're working together.

We're going to get into how we met in today's episode.

It's a pretty interesting story and he's also going to walk us through a really fascinating case.

Thank you for all of the feedback on these True Story Presents episodes.

We've got one more coming next week and then we will be back to our regular case files episodes.

We're going to be talking about the Olivia Gantt case.

We're going to be digging into chronic lime.

We're going to be talking about Kendra Lucari and Munchausen by Internet.

And of course, we are still on our Season 6 case, so we will be bringing you updates from Michelle and Aunt Sabrina and some other folks connected to that story.

And in the meantime, we are currently working hard in pre-production on season 7, which will be coming at you early in 2026.

So stay tuned for more on that.

In the meantime, as always, if you want to support the show, the best way to do that is by subscribing on Apple or on Patreon.

We've got a lot of extra episodes there, including our coverage of Netflix's unknown number, which approximately a bajillion of you asked me about.

Thank you as always for listening, and with that, enjoy the show.

These are harrowing times in America, especially for our friends and neighbors in immigrant communities.

So if you're looking for resources or ways to help, we wanted to let you know about a wonderful organization that we're partnering with this month.

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You can donate and learn more about NIJC's work by visiting immigrantjustice.org.

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This ad was provided pro bono.

Hey, it's Andrea.

It's come to my attention that some of you have been served programmatic ads for ICE on my show.

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And if you do continue to hear them, please do let us know.

In the meantime, I want it to be known that I do not support ICE.

I am the daughter of an immigrant.

I stand with immigrants.

Immigrants make this country great.

Javier Leva.

Welcome so much to Nobody Should Believe Me.

It is such a pleasure to have you here.

You and your show, Pretend, are our newest members of True Story Media.

And I could not be more excited to collaborate with you.

So you and I have known each other for a few years.

And I was wondering if you wanted to actually tell us your memory of how we met, because I'm wondering if it lines up.

It seems like it seems like it was kind of a long time ago now, but it was probably about three years ago.

Gosh, I have this like very vivid uh memory of how of me listening to season one of Nobody Should Believe Me.

And I don't know if I discovered your show and then contacted you or it was the other way around, but I was hanging Christmas lights and I just couldn't believe what I was listening to.

And it was right around the same time that I was working on

a case that started off as a stalker case, but ended up becoming a factitious disorder case.

And that it was a no-brainer for us to connect.

And I even had you as a guest on my show to to talk about that yeah so for those who are not already listeners of your show um but it's the season of the the stalker which we'll include in the show notes um it's a fascinating story um that does take a surprise munchhausen turn and we won't say too much more about it than that but it was really fascinating to connect with you over that story and uh you also interviewed detective mike for that season so it was a real like that was kind of our first collab moment on the show.

And that was when we were pretty brand new.

So actually, we really got some of our first significant audience from sharing audiences with pretend.

So it's really feels like partnering still.

And now we're, yeah.

And so we saw that synergy right away, if you will.

But I have long appreciated and admired just the journalistic integrity that you bring to your show and that you really,

you know, just do these

obsessive style, deep dive, chase it to the ends of the earth type reporting that to me is one of the most rewarding parts of this job.

And kind of the thing that even despite how difficult the material is that we cover on my show in particular is kind of a thing that

brings me back, right?

Because I think just if you sort of have that type of brain, it is very satisfying to just chase these stories.

Yeah, no, it is a thrill, but then as you know, when you're done with the story or even when you're in the thick of it, it really takes like an emotional toll on you.

And

it's, it's tough because the show must go on, right?

But we are human and we could only absorb so much of this horror show because, you know, listeners are only listening to like an hour at a time or 30 minutes at a time or whatever, but we are living it like over and over and over again.

I mean, and the victims are too, but I mean, we're just like sitting with this terrible material for so long.

Yeah.

That, yeah.

I mean, every time I'm done with a big investigation, I need to walk away.

Yeah.

And so I'm curious to talk just a little bit about your process.

I mean, first of all, how did you get into true crime podcasting?

This is a job that no one is specifically trained for, right?

I think the interesting thing about podcasting is everyone comes from another industry because this industry has only existed for a few years, really, as an industry.

I guess I come from the old school true crime world, which was local news.

You know, I did a lot of local news growing up,

like in my career, early in my career.

At the same time, I was also doing documentary work and I missed it.

I miss being in news.

I miss telling stories.

And so, about eight years ago, I just started to pretend that I was, my cousin is a white-collar offender, and everybody knew he was a black sheep of the family.

We just had no idea what exactly he did.

So, one day I sat with him for hours with a recorder, and I asked him, I said, Eric, just tell me everything.

He told me everything from the time he broke into cars to

breaking into houses to staging car accidents for auto insurance fraud to the point where he opened up a medical clinic, hired a real doctor and started selling opioids.

And

that's what ultimately landed him in federal prison.

And my job was on the ground.

I couldn't believe it.

And so I was like, yeah, this is what this show is about, you know?

And yeah, I've been doing ever, ever since, you know, and it's not hardcore true crime.

It's white-collar crime, but it almost seems like people are tired of the serial killers and they, they want to hear stories about the crimes that could actually probably happen to them, right?

Like chances are you're never going to encounter a serial killer ever in your lifetime, but you might encounter one of these narcissists that, you know, will wreak havoc on your lives and countless other lives as well.

Yeah, it's so interesting.

And I did know that story about your cousin.

And I wonder, and I would speculate that, you know, having that family connection to start with, like you've seen the havoc that wreaks within a family.

You've seen how that sort of like really impacts a family, right?

And that I think you bring a different lens to true crime coverage when you've seen the impacts of these things.

And that like automatically gives you,

you're not sort of holding it at a distance and looking at it as entertainment for entertainment's sake.

Well, and I see these people as people, right?

Like these con artists, it's so easy to just label them as con artists and narcissists and that they're one-dimensional, but they're not.

I love my cousin.

I still talk to my cousin.

Do I keep one eye on him all the time?

I'm not going to give him your pin number, but you know.

Yeah, I'm not going to give him my pin number, but you know what?

He's my cousin and he has a good heart.

Like he really does, actually.

He's always has.

But he's a hustler, you know?

He's a hustler, man.

And like he says he's on the up and up.

ever and he's a business owner, but I don't know.

And so like, you're right.

I do know both sides of it, but I always try when I'm talking, especially I always try to talk to the perpetrator or the con artist or whoever, right?

I always try to talk to them at eye level, right?

Because if we start judging them from the get-go, they're going to close up.

And I think what's fascinating, and I think why listeners listen is because they want to understand the psychology.

Like, why do they do what they do?

And,

you know, a good

bad guy in a movie, like a villain, is never always a villain, right?

Like, they have, they're multi-dimensional.

And so that's what I try to bring out in these stories.

I'm not trying to sympathize with them to the point where, you know, or give them a platform because you got to be careful about that too.

But I do want paint a a story that goes beyond just the victim's story yeah i think that's it's helpful because i do think that when even if someone is sort of like you know when we portray anything especially with you know violent criminals or people that abuse children which is who i'm talking about on on the show necessarily um or even people that have done you know these big con artist jobs it's like it's very easy for people to put it at a distance by being like well that person's not like me or like someone in my family that would never happen to me, right?

That sort of making them an other is a way to sort of make yourself feel safe from that issue, from that person, from that type of behavior.

And the reality is that,

no, this is all just within the sort of human spectrum of human behavior.

And if we start to make it something else, then we're not actually looking at the problem.

And so I think the question of sympathy is a challenging one.

I think especially in my sphere, where like, that's also the drug, right?

That's the thing that that's part of what they're trying to get.

And so you don't want to like play into that.

But I think, yeah, like you said, to just talk to them like a human being, try and figure out what led a person to behave that way.

What is it about a person that makes them behave that way helps us better recognize those people when we see them out in the world?

And I think that that's really valuable.

Yeah, you know, you mentioned something that got me thinking, and I've never said this before, I might regret it, but I think there's two types of con artists.

There's the con artist that everybody thinks is out there, which is a professional con artist where it's their job to rip you off.

And those are the Nigerian princes.

Those are your politicians, whatever.

Like these people that are just like, that's their job to take your money, right?

Those guys, yeah, they're out there, but the ones that really hurt are the ones that are in your circle.

Because it's, it's not about, I mean, yes, losing a bunch of money,

it sucks, right?

I often find that it's the betrayal that hurts the most, right?

The fact that these people feel like fools for trusting somebody, the fact that they cannot trust somebody because of whatever happened to them.

You know what I mean?

Like they can't find a relationship anymore.

They just don't trust anybody.

And that's devastating, right?

Like you could recover financially, but you cannot recover when you're permanently scarred and you're just alone because you've been violated.

You've been

yeah, it is.

It's a huge violation.

And I think that's something that, especially when we, you know, we look at sort of these circles of harm that happen around the perpetrators that we talk about on the show.

And obviously, the most impacted are their children and then their, you know, spouse and family members, the people that are really close.

But especially once you get past that sort of initial layer and you look at all these people that got pulled in to helping that family or fundraising for that family or just were emotionally invested in what was happening and then find out it's all a lie.

I mean, it really, that really messes with people.

And I think the psychological damage done to everyone involved is often worse, even than the worst physical effects that happen to the children.

You know, the adult survivors, I know, that is the thing that they struggle with the most, just that ultimate betrayal of like the person that was supposed to love you the most, you know?

And I think that is a harder thing for people to quantify than the financial piece.

And so I think sometimes it's like, oh, well, you know, like, yeah, that person, you know, ripped you off, but you'll be fine.

And it's kind of like that part that's harder to quantify and that sort of inhibiting someone's ability to believe their own perception of reality is so damaging.

And I think that's just something that people do not necessarily understand unless they've been through it or have been kind of walked through it.

And just know that if you think that you went off off for some of these scams, you're the perfect target because that's what's going to make it hurt even more, right?

When it does happen.

And these guys are going to outscrew you every time.

They are very talented at manipulation.

Most people don't think the way they do, right?

These guys are 10 steps ahead of you.

And don't ever let your guard down by saying, oh, this would never happen to me because it can.

Right.

And I think that's also like a, that's also can be like a really convenient way to kind of victim blame, you know, where people are just like, well, that idiot.

I wouldn't fall for that.

It's like, well, you know, like maybe not today, but maybe if you were in a vulnerable spot or maybe, you know, it's like older people get scammed all the time.

Well, if you're lucky, you're going to be an old person one day.

It's like, you're, you know, it's, it's like people.

I know, but, you know, even I victim blame sometimes.

And like, I'm like, I try not to because, you know, I know.

Every out of everyone, I should know not to do that.

But like, sometimes I'm sitting in on these calls and this woman, like, that I'm doing a story on right now, she's like, yeah, he, he promised he was going to pay me back.

And so I bought the plane ticket.

And then, yeah, I stayed in this Manhattan hotel for like three months, but he said he was going to pay me back.

And then we flew to Texas and then he made me get the train and the hotel.

And like, I was like, at what point do you say, hey, he's not going to pay you back?

You're like, this woman is down now to $1,000.

And like, she's, you know what I mean?

And so it's hard to, as an outsider, to be like, come on, you should have known something.

But we weren't there.

That's the thing that that's amazing about these guys is that from an outsider, we're like, when are you going to put an end to this?

Right.

But you weren't there.

right?

You didn't see the tactics that these con artists use to manipulate you, almost like smother you where you cannot rationally think about things anymore.

Yeah.

Right.

So, like, now that you're telling the story, it sounds ridiculous, but when you're in the middle of that hurricane, yeah, it's really hard to put yourself in those shoes.

Yeah, it can be impossible to see your way out.

And I know that, like, it's like people, I think, by and large, and this is like such a shared theme of both of our shows, right?

It's sort of this gaslight thing and manipulation, deception, and betrayal trauma.

And like, I think people just totally overestimate their ability to make logical decisions with regards to people that are in their lives.

And it's like, or really with regards to anything, because people, if you have some idea that like you're this logical person, you're going to evaluate all of the, you know, facts in front of you and you're just going to make a non, you know,

an unemotional sort of choice about how to move forward.

It's like, that's not how anybody operates in life.

We all make emotional decisions.

We make emotional decisions about

about work, about relationships, about politics, about money.

It's like all of those things are heavily, heavily influenced by emotional.

It's like you can't argue someone like, and I think we've all had these experiences around things like politics when we disagree.

It's like, if you're just trying to like, oh, we're just going to evaluate the facts, like that's not what anyone does.

It's like we all exist in the context and we all bring all of our emotional baggage to everything and your relationship with that person, right?

And if someone's exploiting their relationship with you and your trust, it's like, yeah, those decisions might look totally illogical from the outside, but in the internal logic of the relationship, they make perfect sense.

And I always would say about my sister, like she

had a reality distortion field around her.

So I would be away from her and I would kind of be like, wait a minute, like this doesn't add up.

And then I'd bring those concerns to her.

And in the moment, I'd be like, oh, okay, well, that makes sense.

And then I'd walk away and again, I'd be like, wait a minute, like that doesn't make sense.

And it's just this continual experience that people get in.

And so I think it's like, yeah, it's very easy if you're not in the, you know, distortion field at that moment to be like, okay, he's not going to pay you back.

But it's like, if you are in this emotional relationship with someone and it has all its emotional truths, you know, so there's probably some line where like, especially with, you know, these kind of things, like romance scams and stuff like that, we're like, well, people do need to like take some adult accountability for not participating and maybe have like an appropriate amount of skepticism, like not to say like everyone's off the hook, but it's also like we should always blame the people that are the predators in the situation and try and figure out how to make the systems harder to exploit than they are.

Well, but you know, I saw something on on TikTok the other day.

It's kind of a loose analogy here, but it was a garbled piece of audio.

It made no sense.

It was like,

you know, like very staticky.

And the guy goes, I'm going to tell you now what

it said, and I'm going to play the audio again.

And so he told us what it said.

And then he played that garbled audio again.

But now our brain was able to make sense out of the noise right and so what i'm getting at is there are some signs that you can pick up like if you know about it that when you are confronted in these situations that you will be able to recognize it you you just need to know them right so like love bombing um also you know being overly generous right there it's almost like they're fattening you up so when when they need a favor it doesn't seem that outrageous right like this guy's been paying for every dinner and now he needs, he's in trouble.

He needs, he needs $1,000.

Why wouldn't I help him?

You know, that's part of the setup,

trying to consume your time all the time, you know, so that

you are always around this person and they're isolating you from every relationship.

They're creating these fantasies, like, you know, these crazy stories that are unverifiable, but maybe it's possible.

I don't know.

And there's always sudden escalation of like tense moments.

You know, like if you start recognizing these, these are all like tips that I've amassed like from the eight years of doing this, right?

Like these are all tactics that they use over and over again.

And if you start recognizing them, that's why I think my, our show is very important because our listeners are listening, right?

And these are stories, but collectively they're learning.

Yeah.

Because it's a pattern what to look for.

Right, exactly.

Yeah.

And it's, I always say, like, with the munchausen stuff in particular, like, you know, which also these cases always involve all of this other deception, right?

So there's the medical stuff, which is usually the highlight, and that's where the medical abuse happens.

But there's also just like, I mean, so much financial fraud, infidelity on this, on these very sort of extreme levels,

you know, lying about work qualifications, just lying about everything.

Sort of, it's an

everything everywhere all at once kind of thing.

Factitious disorder is like a subset of

Conart.

Yeah, it's a behavior in this other constellation of just like complete deceptive behavior all the time.

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You know, one of the things that I love about your show and that I think is so special about podcasting, and one of the reasons that I'm really enjoying being in this space is because I feel like podcasting is a great place to take big swings

for better or worse sometimes, but there's fewer guardrails, I think, in podcasting than there are in some of these other forms of media, which, you know, you come from news media, I come from book publishing.

I think we could could maybe use a few more guardrails in podcasting, but I think part of the reason it's so exciting to be part of this like burgeoning industry is because there's a lot of exciting stuff here.

Like you can take big swings in podcasting.

Like I don't think that my show could have been anything other than a podcast, right?

Because I was trying to sort of break through with some of this media before, right?

Trying to get the traditional media to cover this topic, trying to like, you know,

and like sort of looking at these other properties that were getting made around the topic and where they were falling short.

And it's just like, oh, no, I just think it had to be a podcast because this is the genre where you can really do risky things and you can, it's accessible enough that you can sort of do it independently.

And so that's one thing I love about your show is I feel like you really push the envelope, but in a responsible way.

Have there been any moments, you know, you were talking about kind of like the emotional toll that this can take?

And that's just from the sort of vicarious trauma that we experience and just the sort of exhaustion of, you know, being on one of these cases.

But, you know, obviously, like part of it is that we're getting tangled up with potentially scary people right oh yeah have there been any moments for you

where you were like oh boy like maybe i should drop this or maybe i should have done this those are usually the good ones yeah i mean i i think probably both of us have those feelings and then you know and then proceed anyway but like yeah like i had that feeling today

okay just today just today no i had that feeling all the time Yeah.

No, it's it's scary, right?

Because like you and I, we don't have a giant corporation and a legal team behind us and all this stuff.

But I wanted to add something about like the podcasting being the perfect medium for this.

And I don't know if you experienced this, and I'll answer your question later, but when you're planning a story, and I'm sure that this season that you're working on right now,

you have a plan.

And then the podcast comes out and then the plan changes, right?

Or you find out that you're only halfway there, right?

Because like, because of the format format and because you could put stuff out, you could react to it.

Whereas in a book, you can't do that, right?

You have to like wait to respond to the real-time events.

And in a podcast, you can just jump in there and discover new stories.

But yeah, the whole sinking feeling in your stomach when you're approaching a story, that happens a lot.

There was one time where I did a story about gangstalkers and I actually talked to my wife about it.

And I had actually produced all the episodes and we listened to it.

And she goes, you know, I'm not comfortable because what happens if these gangstalkers turn on me, right?

Which most likely they would have.

And I was like, you know what?

I agree.

But I'm just going to put it out there for my Patreon supporters.

Nobody's going to find that, right?

So I put it out on Patreon and we go on a family vacation, which I had said I was going to unplug.

You know, I'm not going to like check my phone.

But like halfway through the vacation, it was almost like White Lotus Season 3.

I checked my phone and it was just like, uh-oh, the gangstalkers found it.

They ripped all the episodes, posted it on their little gang stalking online forum, and they were tearing me to shreds, calling me all kinds of bad name, doxing me.

They found my address.

But then in that sinking feeling, oh my God, like, what the hell did I just do?

And then it kind of, they, they actually liked what I did eventually and they backed off because it was so funny.

They actually appreciated the coverage that I did on the, they thought I was fair.

Initially, they did what they do, which is gangsta.

And then they're like, actually, it's really harsh, but fair.

Wow.

And then most recently, I covered a case, the LaDonna Humphrey case, which boy, you know, like usually when you cover a case, this is somebody's life, right?

Even if they're bad people or, or like they done bad things or whatever, they're people, right?

And they have families and stuff like that.

that.

And,

you know, most of the time when you cover somebody like that, they retreat, right?

But that's not what LaDonna Humphrey did.

She went to war with me for a whole year and it's probably not over.

I mean, she tried to take down my show.

People were coming to threatening to show up at my house.

They publish blogs about me with all kinds of terrible things.

Oh my God, I've spent like $10,000 on legal fees.

You know, it's just nuts.

She went all out war with me.

And yeah, this happens all the time.

But when you have that feeling, you know that you're onto something.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm sorry you're, I'm sorry you're going through that.

I expect knowing you that it probably won't deter you much.

No, because actually that's, I have to remind myself that that's the whole reason why I started this to begin with.

I mean, if I retreat, then who's going to hold these people accountable, right?

Like, I'm the only one covering this case.

Yeah.

So.

Yeah, no, I feel the same way.

And, you know, yeah, I started off my entire show with a big legal challenge from my sister.

And I actually realized that

I think in these cases in particular, although, you know, TBD for someone to really try

for this to not be the case, but I think

what I have learned is that I think people who are really manipulative and who are deceptive, I think a lot of times they do thrive on silence and that when you take that away, it often does sort of neutralize them more than you'd think.

You're sort of expecting this huge pushback and actually they just, you know, make a little bit of noise and then maybe go away and then, you know, sort of start somewhere else.

But it's an interesting experience.

But I'm glad you guys are okay.

That sounds really scary.

Which one?

The gang sagging?

The whole thing.

I mean,

everything.

Yeah.

Well, I had the same feeling this today about the story.

I'm like, because every time somebody approaches me about a story, I'm thinking, what are they trying to get out of this?

Right.

Like, everybody has an axe to grind, even victims, right?

Everybody, if you approach me with a story, I'm wondering, okay, what is your motivation, right?

And I'm trying to play this thing out in my head.

And I'm like, it's like taking a whack out of a wasp nest.

You know, you don't know early on what the heck you're going to get into.

So, yeah.

Yeah, that's interesting.

So, do most of your stories now come from people sort of self-referring to you?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

In the beginning, it was like finding the stories and I still do that, but a lot of the good ones are people that just come to me.

And it's more of a betting process now than,

yeah, I don't take every story that comes across my desk, but yeah.

Yeah, that's interesting.

I think all of the stories we've covered so far, at least in depth on the seasons, have been like, I mean, fortunately, I have this amazing community with the ABSAC committee that that is where I get my cases.

I mean, it can be very hard to do due diligence on these cases unless you have, unless you know there's been a police investigation or you know there's some kind of file.

So you have to have like, you know, unfortunately, just the way that things play out, even if someone's a survivor and they're telling me a story and I completely believe them, like I have to be able to obviously corroborate everything.

So that's kind of

you don't have access to medical records sometimes.

Yeah.

So that can be a hurdle.

But also like, yeah, for that reason that you said, like, and I think with our show, it's like, yeah, I think people can have an axe to grind and that can be very understandable, right?

It's like, well, I don't blame you for wanting some kind of, you know, revenge on this person or whatever.

But it's not my, but it's not my job to carry your vendetta, right?

Right.

And also, like, I always worry that if someone's in that mindset, that they're just not going to have a good experience.

Like, I always want the people who are telling me their story, which is very vulnerable and scary in its own right, to like have a good experience and hopefully have it be like a healing and positive experience.

And so, if someone comes in and they're like really hoping to settle a score, I'm just like, I don't think this is going to accomplish what you want it to.

And then I don't think that'll be a good experience for you.

Yeah.

So Javier, you brought us a story today about one of the cases that you've covered that's kind of way in the back catalog.

So what can you tell us about the case that you brought us today?

Actually, it's not as far back as it was just my last season, but when I produced it, I've been wanting to talk to you about it because, you know, at face value, it does not seem like factitious disorder or anything like that.

I mean, it just seems seems like a very scandalous story, but I want to tell you about it and see what your opinion is.

Get my read.

Okay, and I'm going into this cold.

So I will, I'll, we can put it on the Munch House and O-meter and we'll see if it registers.

And sorry if that was a glib joke.

I'm obviously not glib about the issue.

I just, you know, have to get my puns in where I can.

Yeah, of course.

Yeah.

Well, so it's season 21 of Pretend, and it's a series called The Internet Saves the Bachelor.

And so, yeah, The Bachelor from the ABC Bachelor, or at least one of them.

His name is Clayton Eckard.

I don't watch A Bachelor.

And you don't even need to watch The Bachelor to get the story because what happens after he records that season of The Bachelor is way more scandalous, in my opinion, than what was broadcast on the show.

So Clayton Eckard, he's a stud, you know, this very handsome guy, goes on The Bachelor, does his season.

It turns out that he's not even that popular of a bachelor.

He was kind of a a jerk, he cheated on it, on all the women or whatever.

And so he used to have a well-liked yeah, The Bachelor.

I feel like The Bachelor franchise, I think I've watched a couple seasons from like way back when I used to watch it, like in the aughts, like with my roommates in New York.

So it's been on the air for a hundred years.

I think increasingly it's become

seen as a problematic franchise for a lot of reasons.

So I'm proud to say that I've never watched The Bachelor, not even for research for the series.

No, that you should brag about that, Javier.

or love island i haven't watched that either okay yes but i'm sure many of your listeners have have watched some of the bachelor here and there so you know my my listeners have all respect to the bachelor listeners or exactly bachelor watchers yeah so so what happens when you're done being a bachelor right you have to go back to living a normal life, right?

You know, like, so Clayton Eckard, he goes, he lives in Arizona and he gets his realtor license, real estate license.

So he's like, I think there's a significant percentage of them, by the way, that that is what they do.

I think that former reality stars are like way overrepresented in the realtor population.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Well, his real estate career was kind of short-lived because I think it's his very first client, okay, is this woman named Laura Michelle Owens.

Okay, and she's like the person that we're going to be talking about today.

Laura Michelle Owens wants to buy a house.

He's showing her houses around Phoenix.

And, well, they

they have a little romantic

situation let's just say not to get too graphic but there's no intercourse okay they're just fooling around and he's fooling around his first client that's very professional great place to start yeah yeah but you know shortly after that Laura Owens comes back and claims that she's pregnant with Clayton's uh twins not just one kid two kids okay she's pregnant with his twins And he's like, wait, wait, wait, wait.

This is impossible because we did not have intercourse, right?

Like, that's how it works.

That's what I've been told.

We're both parents, however, we know how it works.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And she goes up to his house.

She takes one of the, she pees on a stick.

And sure enough, the test is positive.

All right.

They test another test.

And it's positive.

It is positive.

And he's like, how is this possible?

Three pregnancy tests, right?

but here's the thing there's no real doctor no ultrasound no blood work so he's just kind of going on this news right but he doesn't believe it and he's demanding like proof right

and to make a long story short laura owns um

you know it

she goes as far as going to court okay like this becomes so crazy it becomes this crazy paternity battle that they duke it out in court and of course, this is like during COVID sometimes when

you appeared in court, you couldn't appear in person.

So that was like all webcam.

And you could clearly see Laura Owens is pregnant.

She has like a big pregnancy belly.

But in one of the shots, I guess she forgot, you know, she starts shifting her belly around.

And at one point, she shows proof, right?

She filed this paternity suit and he wants proof.

So she shows him a sonogram.

This is why I love the internet.

The internet found out they they latched on to this case and were really helping Clayton Eckert out because, you know, he, he hired an attorney, but a guy saying that he's not the father and going against a woman, it, you know, he's kind of at a disadvantage there.

But the internet helped him out.

They were able to find out that that sonogram that she gave as evidence was actually

Photoshop by, it had the Fiverr logo.

She must have hired somebody on Fiverr to edit the details of the sonogram.

And they were able to find the exact same sonogram on the internet.

And she also made claims that she went to a Plant Parenthood in California, but she used a fake name.

So there's no Plant Parenthood records of this.

Then even under oath, she told the judge that she was 24 weeks pregnant.

And then suddenly she had a miscarriage.

There's no evidence of the death or anything like that.

And so the reason why I thought this was a good case, oh, she also had cancer at some point

where they actually removed one of her ovaries.

Okay.

And it turns out that this, Clayton Eckard was not the only person that she had made these false claims.

She had made this false claim with two or three other guys.

Same story.

She was pregnant.

It goes to court, but I guess it never went as far as the Clayton Eckard story.

And not to ruin it or spoil it for everyone, but

she is going to prison for this or going to jail for these lies.

And it was just an outrageous story that got completely out of control.

But the reason why I thought I wanted to talk to you about it was because people kept messaging me, hey, this sounds a lot like fictitious disorder where she's creating this fake medical scenario for attention.

I mean, and just, I know I just told you the story cold, but what are your thoughts?

I mean, yeah, 100%.

I mean, that, like, that whole series of events, like the obstetrical complications, alleged miscarriages, alleged miscarriages of twin pregnancies because of cancer specifically.

I mean, these are all things I've heard a bunch of times and they just really fit the, it definitely fits the picture.

It's hard to say, obviously, without, you know, couldn't confirm without knowing.

But I mean, and also the fact that she's done it to a bunch of different people.

I mean, I just did an episode the other day with

Sarah Trelevin, who's done a lot of really interesting writing about

Munchausen behavior.

And she has a new podcast with the CBC, Caitlin's Baby, that's all about someone who was a serial

fabricator of pregnancies and roped all of these doulas in to, you know.

I was one of the first to cover that case, by the way.

Oh, wow.

That's right.

Okay.

I'd forgotten that you'd covered that case.

No, but it's a very mind-blowing case.

It is a mind-blowing case.

And I think,

so, I mean, that it certainly fits into it.

And I think people probably have a lot of the same questions about it.

And I have, now that you're mentioning it, I was like, I think I did hear about this because I think people were sending it to me also and being like, is this munchie?

And I'm like, yes, it does sound.

It does sound like that behavior.

And I think like, that's why actually it's so helpful to recognize these as, you know, we get very hung up in my.

arena sometimes of like, oh, well, is this a discrete mental illness that like someone can be treated for and that we can diagnose someone with and then understand it sort of in that framework.

And I think it's much better understood as a behavior and as, like, an expression of, you know, whatever's going on with this person psychologically, but it's like, it's a pattern of behavior, right?

So, and it's a really compulsive pattern of behavior.

So, that's like, if, you know, and there, and I'm sure if we scratched into the surface of this woman's life, there would be all kinds of other extraneous, you know, histories of deception, lying about illnesses, lying about other stuff.

Like, I think a lot of people look at these situations and they're like, well, why, why did she do this?

Was she trying to like shake this guy down?

Was she trying to, and I think it's, um, I've come to understand it in a couple of ways.

Like, number one, I think the thing that has previously been zeroed in on is sort of this idea of they want attention and sympathy.

Okay.

So it's like, you know, they're creating these big dramas.

They're getting, but then you're like, well, but then people find out it's a lie and it's not, they're not going to be sympathetic once they realize the person's lying.

But I think it is number one, a very compulsive behavior, but I've also really come to understand it as as a way that people look for power over another person, right?

Because it's an abuse dynamic.

And I think we need to understand it as an abuse dynamic, right?

They are choosing someone to victimize.

So this unfortunate bachelor nation man, Clay, found himself in this person's science, right?

And they are, you know, that sort of trying to fool someone, trying to take their attention, trying to like get one over on them, trying to be the powerful person in the situation.

I have come to believe that that's as much of a part of it as anything.

And so I think that's why it expresses itself in like having to do with pregnancies.

And right, it's like, and it's another one of these things where it's like, okay, most women on earth, you know, most people who can become pregnant on earth would never.

lie about being pregnant, would never use that as a power tool.

But someone who has this kind of makeup absolutely would, right?

Because it's something people respond to and it's something that will get them in that position of power potentially.

Yeah.

And I think you're right because even early on in the clayton eckard case where she was very early on in her quote unquote pregnancy she was like hey listen i'll go get an abortion as long as you'll get back to together with me and this is all like documented with text messages so it was a manipulation tactic that she was using to i guess the motive right like people are like why did she do all this was it really because she was seeking his attention like she needed his like approval or love?

I don't know what it was, but he refused to play along.

And that's how she went from being only a few weeks pregnant to 24 weeks pregnant.

And, you know, it just got out of hand.

But I think that if he weren't the bachelor and she was just Laura Owens girl on the street and no one had ever covered the story and the internet wouldn't have known about it, it would be one thing, but it was this attention seeking thing that happened because, you know, she would write blogs about it.

There's YouTube videos.

She's like fake crying and videos and,

you know, these vague explanations for all these situations and threatening lawsuits to anybody that covers the case.

And it's just the fact that she would continue the case for so long, like this paternity case, it must be costing her a fortune, right?

So, so this is a con artist case that she's not actually taking money from anybody.

She's actually spending money like a fortune to keep the charades going.

Yeah, and I mean, it would be very interesting to know what the financial mechanisms that allowed her to do this are.

Because, of course, what we see a lot in cases is you're like, well, God, like, how are these people even affording to do this?

Like, so many people can't even afford basic health care.

How are these people affording to go here, there, and everywhere?

And it's like, well, because they're conning a lot of people out of money by, you know, it's like either getting money from family members.

Or so she could have very easily been going to some have it legal, go fund me, or have, you know, be telling everyone, like, oh my gosh, this person, like, he's, he got me pregnant, he's abandoning me.

And now I'm having to fight him in court.

And he's this powerful person because he's famous and, you know, I need help.

And so, you know, a lot of times they're just committing a ton of financial fraud in order to continue their behavior.

But I think again, like in the understanding that it's sort of about power and sort of a play for status in a way is like, that's why I think the medical thing, it's like pulling one over on doctors.

I think there is, you know, the psychologists that I work with, like think that that's a huge part of like just the thrill of pulling it over someone that's like more educated than you, high, you know, higher status than you.

So I think it's like, it would make sense if she'd done this to other people and then she sort of chose a bigger target, right?

Because then that's even more like, oh, I pulled one over on the bachelor and then it got to be this.

And it's just like, I think the other thing about looking at these types of offenders is like, they're just such chaos agents and they're just such drama machines.

And it's like they have to have that drama, drama, drama.

So it's like, I think for most of us, we look at a situation like that and we're like, that sounds so stressful to go to court, be paying legal bills, to be getting all of this like, you know, scrutiny online.

But for them, it's like they're getting a need met by doing that.

So it's like they're getting something out of that.

Like they're getting a thrill and they're like getting to sort of be in their happy place by having everyone run around and be in the midst of all this drama and causing chaos and causing.

pain to other people.

And I mean, I think it's like.

Most of us would not want any of that.

No, no.

And I think that's what allows them to sort sort of hide so effectively a lot of the time.

It's because they're co-opting what for the rest of us would be nightmare scenarios, right?

Like getting pregnant by someone by accident and then having that person, you know, be in conflict with that person.

And so it's like, that's just like someone goes, well, why would you want to do that?

Or pretending that you have cancer or pretending that your child is sick.

Like they're co-opting these things that are people's visceral fears.

So someone goes, well, why would someone lie about that?

Right.

And because there's no financial motive necessarily, people sort of can't find a reason and you have to sort of understand that these people are operating on a completely different set of rules than you are but as you kind of pointed to when you're talking about sort of narcissists and con artists once you know the rules like then you can see it

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Well, I'm curious, what charges did they get her on ultimately?

So yeah, this started out as a paternity case in family court, okay?

This is a civil thing, not criminal at all.

But this just tells you how out of control this got that the judge in the paternity family court referred the case over to prosecutors in criminal court because of the perjury that she was committing on the stand.

I mean, she was on the stand lying like through her teeth right and she was indicted for forgery perjury tampering with physical evidence i mean investigators say that between may 2023 and june 2024 2024, Laura Owens altered ultrasound photos, fake pregnancy videos, and lied several times under oath.

So that's how crazy this went from family court to now she has a mug shot and she's awaiting trial.

That's so interesting because, you know, one of the one of the big things that comes to the fore in these cases is like, what can you charge someone with?

And there's a lot of lying you can do that is not.

No, obviously you shouldn't be able to like lying should not be a criminal charge.

I don't think any of us wants to live in that world, but like it can be very, very tricky to actually fit any of this into a crime.

And it sounds like probably because this was such a high-profile case, the prosecutor was motivated to do something.

Because I think like every perpetrator I've known has like done, you know, like fake ultrasound photos.

I mean, all of that, you know,

but doing it, doing it on the stand when you've taken a curve.

You know, if, yeah, like people, when we were covering this case, we're like, if this is not considered, you know, lying under oath and like, what is, right?

And so it's probably the reason that a lot of these women, even when they're in go-to-trial, like don't get put on the stand is because

I don't know what they would be terrible lawyers.

Her lawyer, funny enough, just got

arrested for a DUI for drugs and alcohol.

I mean, so she didn't have the best attorney.

What a mess.

I almost got her on my show.

He got him on my show and he's like, yeah, sure, I'll let Laura talk to you.

And a couple days later, she was indicted.

And so I was like,

I missed it by a couple days.

Wow.

Wow.

Thank you for sharing that case.

Yeah, that was like a, did get dredged up from my memory.

So hopefully Clayton is okay

and

maybe

he's not going to be a realtor anymore.

Oh, he has a neutral.

Are you serious?

I think so, yeah.

Oh, no.

He'll be fine.

He's turned out to be a good branding.

It's like, it's like, what a good, it's a good branding moment for him.

It's like, oh, man, I think there's no such thing as bad publicity for someone who's a reality television star.

So I guess.

Well, but then you could say the same thing for a lot of these perpetrators, right?

Like for Laura Owens, I don't think there was a thing as bad publicity.

I think she was eating it up.

And that's actually one of the things that I struggle with.

And I wonder if you struggle with that too, because what we're doing is we're actually giving them more attention, you know, which is what they want.

Like, do you ever think about that?

Like, yeah, I mean, I certainly even though it's negative.

Yeah, I mean, I certainly do.

And I think that's definitely a consideration when on the rare occasions when, well, I've only, but I've only gotten one on the record, but like on the occasions when, you know, you have an opportunity to interview a perpetrator, like, are you going to be playing into whatever narrative they want you to be a part of?

And I certainly think with Hopiabara, you know, that she did think she could create some sympathy for herself, take control of the narrative.

And, you know, I don't think that's what we presented.

I think it was pretty clear that, you know, there was some interesting insights.

She was a really interesting conversation to have, but I don't think it sort of absolved her of anything or made her look any more sympathetic.

I think people were pretty, you know, having heard all the details of the case, I think people were pretty clear on who and what she was.

I think it probably does.

feed some part of them to have a big drama around, like, you know, when I think about what sort of happened in the wake of this story coming out,

I'm sure that there is part of that.

I've wondered with all these lawsuits, because they love to try and, you know, a lot of times they get away with it and then they will go try and sue the doctors or CPS or whomever else.

And I'm like, oh, I'm sure these lawsuits are like another big opportunity, kind of like in Laura's case, right?

Another big opportunity

to get attention, sympathy, have a drama.

But I think in our case, you know, whatever concern there is about that is outweighed by the utility of putting their name out there, because in all of the cases we've covered that were not adjudicated,

you know, my sister's case,

season five, season six,

those are people who are still living with vulnerable children.

So having that information out there is a protective mechanism.

So I think like, yeah, it just kind of gets gets outweighed by it.

It's something to be really mindful of, right?

That you cannot fall into their narrative.

You know,

I didn't get a chance to interview Lisa on the show, but I talked to her.

We went to her doorstep.

That's a little spoiler for those who haven't listened, but just to let you know that's where it's going.

Yes, with this season, I did, I did end up having a conversation with her.

And I've realized that I cannot talk to them early in the process.

I have to be at the end of my reporting because they're going to lie to me.

And so I have to know when they're lying.

And so I think it's really important to be like, well, actually, you know, push them on.

Like, well, actually, that's not, that's not what happened.

And I have the time like fresh in my mind and I have all my due diligence.

And like, you can't spin this conversation the way that you want it.

And I suspect that's why most of them don't want to sit down with me these days because I don't think I think it's pretty obvious who I am.

But yeah, I think it's definitely a worthwhile consideration.

Yeah.

No, I think about it all the time, but I think you're right.

I think getting the word out and warning future victims is more important than they are obsessing about all the internet chatter about them, even though it's negative.

And I know that some of the people that I cover get off on that negative attention oh yeah i mean yeah because that that's what they and they thrive on being the victim and i and i know that like their favorite thing to do is be the victim of something right and so now i'm like now you're the victim of now you're gonna be the victim of me and this podcast and it's gonna be all my fault right so it's like you watch yourself sort of join this there's always someone that's a scapegoat and it's like you know um it's the expert who testified against them it's the family member that turned them in it's their ex-husband it's the doctor who you know caught the abuse and then i'm like i always know i'm going to be added to that list.

So now I'm going to be, you know, the podcaster that ruined their life or whatever.

So it's like, whoever tells the truth about them is the villain.

So I always know I'm sort of like stepping into that villain role.

Sure.

And like, you know, I'm fine with that, obviously.

Probably this, it's obvious.

But I always have to make sure that I've done just the utmost due diligence, right?

Because I can't let them like have any sort of like, I try, I just, it's like, that's why I'm so obsessive about getting every last detail that I possibly can have.

Um, so that if I am in a situation where I get the opportunity to confront them with it, that I can just have my legally blonde moment, right?

Of being in the courtroom and happening to know that, you know, ammonium thiglocklate or whatever it was, that okay, I'm, you have seen that movie, right?

I've seen that.

I've seen that one.

I have daughters.

Yeah.

Hey, listen, you are in a very female genre.

You have, you know, I'm sure you have a five percentage of female listening.

It's like, you got to put some respect on the girls, Javier.

This is girls' media.

True crime is girls' media.

That's right.

Yeah.

All right, Javier.

Well, where can everyone find you?

You have eight years of your amazing podcast in the back catalog.

So if you are gonna, we are going to be dropping an episode of your newest season in the feed tomorrow.

We have talked about also your seasons of The Stalker, your season, Who's Afraid of LaDonna Humphrey, and our buddy Clayton and his misadventures with fake paternity scams.

So we've talked about a couple of your seasons already, but if someone were like, I am new to the world of Javier Leva, where would you have them start?

Oh, yeah.

And going back to when you quizzed me on which season the stalker was, that's season 12, not 13.

I would definitely start there.

That's a fun one.

The LaDonna Humphrey, Who's Afraid of LaDonna Humphrey season?

That's a good one too.

I think that's season 18.

And yeah, I mean, you know, most of the time you could kind of pick and choose, jump around whatever sounds interesting to you guys, because I like to change things up for my own interest, right?

Like, I don't want to cover the same thing all the time.

So I also interviewed, I was invited to attend a cult in season three.

I think you would enjoy that.

Yeah, cult stuff, I think, will always be a hit with this.

That was one of those, remember that sinking feeling that you were telling me about?

Oh my God, going into that church, that was, wow.

I am sort of

abusing men.

as we as we talk about oh known for abusing men interesting um I'm like I think there are some of these things that like Javier can do that probably I wouldn't do because just you could pass along all your crazies to me that's fine well I just I focus on you know and you're saying like oh I don't want to do the same thing all the time the interesting thing is obviously we have a narrow area of focus on the show we exclusively do muntazum by proxy cases and I remember when I set out you know I originally made the show as limited series so that was the original conception and then was like I think I want to do a second season and then it's like I want want to do third.

And kind of on from there.

And I, I thought originally I was like, well, this is a pretty niche topic to do an entire ongoing podcast on.

And it's turned out that's just not the case because even though the pattern of abuse is so strong, these stories are so singularly wild.

Like there is always like

surprises along the way.

And there's always like, just, I mean, just the, I think when you have, and like, this is where there's a big strong crossover with the two shows, right?

It's like when you have someone who is a pathological liar,

their entire life is going to be bananas.

And you will just have people coming out of the woodwork with different versions of the story and different sort of extraneous bad acts.

And like, it just sort of these stories just go on, they just sort of like expand and expand and expand and expand.

And then you have to just figure out where you want to stop your reporting, really.

Well, same thing.

I have a show called The Ponzi Playbook, and my agent told me, she's like, you know what?

All the Ponzi schemes are the same.

It's going to get boring.

And I'm like, well, maybe, maybe it will get boring.

But every Ponzi scheme is exactly the same, except the people who are conducting it.

There's a pastor who does, you know, a Ponzi scheme at his church.

There's a guy that's selling cow manure for energy Ponzi scheme.

There's a guy that's doing a watch Ponzi scheme.

I mean, there's just so many different kinds of Ponzi schemes.

I mean,

is America at this point a Ponzi scheme?

The American Dream is a Ponzi scheme.

American Dream sounds like a Ponzi game right now.

Well, on that hopeful note,

thank you so much for being with us, Javier.

I'm so excited to have you as an official partner on True Story Media, and we will have to have you back.

I feel like this is the first of many collabs talks.

You can't get rid of me.

All right.

Thank you, Andrea.

I'm super stoked about being in True Story Media, so I can't wait to see what we create together.

Me too.

Nobody should believe Meek is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop.

Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett.

Administrative support from NOAA Carmouche.