Talking Shop with Brittani Ard

True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and I've got a fun bonus episode for you today.
Today we are chatting with Brittany Ard from You Probably Think This Show Is About You. This show was a huge breakout hit when it launched last year, and it went to number one on Apple and Spotify.
Britt and I are both here in Seattle, and she's on my new network, True Story Media. In this conversation today, we are talking about all the behind the scenes of podcasting and what it's like to make all of this work as an independent podcaster.
I love talking shop with other podcasters, and I hope you enjoy. Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold.
The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP. And if you are an audiobook lover, and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here, you should know that I narrate the audiobook as well.
If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much. Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodyshouldbelieveme.com.
And we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special.

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guarantees. We made the first seasons of our shows with the same production company.
So that is how

we met through your lovely now producer, Sid, who I also worked with on some seasons of my show while I was there. So that is actually how we met, not while we were both working with that studio, but afterwards.
So how did you make the choice to go down that particular road of hiring a production company? Theoretically, I was originally going to do like

a DIY sort of thing. Like I'll just record this.
I can learn it and hire, have the production company do the sound engineering and sort of the, some of the stuff that I didn't want to learn. But, you know, I can get a microphone and figure out how to get the audio.

That was my original plan. And then once I met with them and we sort of went through like, here's what the cost would be to get a season and how long it would take to sort of recover that cost, you know, if the show gets monetized with ads and stuff.
But even when I first went in, I didn't understand any of that part of it. So I would say that I had some delusions about how it worked.
And in probably a good way, because I was like, okay, I'm gonna do this. And I ended up going with the production company and having them do the majority of everything.
Um, I did have a lot, I would say a lot of input in some of the storyline stuff. Like, um, I wanted it to be a certain way.
And so they allowed me to, you know, work with them on sort of the meat of it. Because I, I didn't want it to just be this show about a bad boyfriend.
You know, I really wanted it to have a heartbeat and some depth. So, you know, decided to have them do the full production, which is very expensive.
I self financed, which it will be years before I actually get into the black, as far as like, paying myself back for the first season while trying to keep production up on the second, which is why we took production in-house. And I started my own production company because it just isn't sustainable.
Yeah. And like, we should say, and yes, for me too.
And I think I am now finally in the black of my show. But like it, yeah, I mean, it's even with a like runaway, I mean, especially your show, right? And we can talk about this sort of in numbers wise, but like, you know, so, so for my show, you know, so we launched the first season, definitely found an audience, you know, we were getting like 60,000 downloads a month, which is actually like pretty solid.
And that puts you in a, even that sort of, you're in a pretty small category of shows. And like you, I mean, I didn't know anything about monetization.
So I was working with, you know, an original ad seller that was like, meh. And, you know, but the show was monetized like pretty immediately, right? During the first season or after the first season.
And then I had a long break while I was like getting, because I had been working on the second season, but my show was originally seasonal. Now we sort of are the seasonal and always on, so we do both.
The second season, you know, interestingly, because part of how I financed the second season was I had a deal with a network that went south before my show even launched. And that was like a whole drama that I've talked about a little bit on the show.
It was very illuminating. It was very, like, it was a really, really good lesson about how, oh, like, if you, you know like you can be told left, right and sideways that you have control over your show.
But actually, if you have sold it to a network, you do not. And like that's that's true.
And so it's just like they will always be watching for their bottom line. And that's just that's just the way it is.
Sort of like I don't know if that's like good or bad. It just is.
Well, and you don't have to get into details, but the deal would not have covered the cost of production. No, I mean, it almost did.
But yes, I mean, like our production costs for both of our shows were very, very high. And that's for a number of reasons.
Yeah. So even that, but that is how I was able to, you know, make a second season, right? So then we, because I did end up getting to keep that money.
Yeah. So then my second season came out in the summer of 2022.
And, you know, going into that, I was like, I don't know how I'm going to keep making this show. And especially because where the numbers were at then, you know, it was definitely not possible, right? And then the show really took off I mean, the thing that I peg it to

Although were at then, you know, it was definitely not possible, right? And then the show really took off. I mean, the thing that I peg it to, although this was not responsible for this kind of, it's certainly not like, you know, we've been on New and Noteworthy a bunch of times since, and it's not, I mean, we always get a bump from it, but it was on New and Noteworthy, and then it just like went through the roof.
And there was like a, you know, there was a bunch of other stuff. We'd been on the air for a while.
We had an audience there. I'd been doing interviews.

I'd been doing cross promos.

So it wasn't only that.

But then it was like overnight, you know, we went from having like, you know, we started

our second season.

We had kind of like 80, okay, 100,000 downloads a month.

And then all of a sudden we had like 800,000 downloads a month, right?

It's a huge jump.

And then, you know, and then we've sort of numbers have gone up and down.

We've grown a lot this year, even after that.

But we had like the iOS update, which anyone in podcasting knows, like Apple changed how

Thank you. month, right? It's a huge jump.
And then, you know, and then we've sort of numbers have gone up and down. We've grown a lot this year, even after that, but we had like the iOS update, which anyone in podcasting knows like Apple changed how they counted downloads and everyone got hit.
But yeah, so I mean, it was at that point where I realized that I was like, oh, I don't have to because before that I was like, oh, I have to sell this show to a network. Like I have to go back into this sort of like deal, which is not really what I wanted, but I was like a financially not feasible to keep making the show.
And then I had this conversation with actually Scott Solomon from Spotify. Who's amazing.
Who's amazing, who we both love. Like one of my favorite people in the industry.
And he was like, and again, I didn't, I had an ad sales company who was working, but I didn't know anything about monetization period, right? And he was like, oh, you shouldn't be trying to sell your show to a network. You should start a network.
And he was the first person who put that. And I was like, oh.
And then he was like, you know, was telling me like all this stuff. He's like, here, here's what you need to know.
I went on this whole thing about like CPMs and like this and that and programmatic everything. And I was like, Scott, that all sounds great.
I have no idea what you just said, right? So I really went journey to really learn a lot about how sort of the back end of advertising. So I didn't understand really a lot about that when I came in or really anything or like especially the specifics of how it worked.
Right. And so the business of podcasting can be quite opaque.
And so I was able to make my show profitable by moving on and hiring a team of my own that was freelancers and really just like making it a really tight ship. And certainly that was much easier to do once I knew what I was doing.
Right. Because I was always very involved with my show.
But, you know, especially like in the third season, like I really, you know, I was like pulling selects and really doing like a lot of stuff that was just like way, way more hands on on the producer side. And, you know, and I think I have a very like it's given me a perspective on like, yeah, how how much a really talented lean team can accomplish.
And also, I have so much appreciation for people like Sid and my wonderful producer, Mariah Gossett, um you engineer, Robin Edgar. They're so talented.
And those roles are really part of having a good story editor. Those roles are so integral to making a really good podcast, especially when you have a format like ours, where you're doing You know, our shows are on the more expensive end, regardless of how you do them, because they just are like, you know, we travel.
We do, you do field recording. You do lots of different voices in one episode, which makes it more expensive for them in the sound engineering space.
So there's like, there's a lot of pieces. It's not that standard, just interview.
Interview, yeah. Yeah.
And we do some of those episodes now for sort of in-between seasons. And those are far easier to pull off.
But it's storytelling. And storytelling, I mean, it's not just one episode.
This is, you know, a whole season like you do with a case. It's the whole season is one case.
That's a big story. It is.
It is. And you know, my show is very, very research heavy.
And there's just a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of way more reading. I do zero reading.
I mean, and I that is a part of my show. It's very, it's very time consuming.
And actually, for season five was the first time I've ever hired someone to help with research. And it was like, oh, such a godsend.
And she found incredible stuff like on sort of the Wayback Machine Internet Archive and stuff, you know, where I'm just like, this person is amazing. So I'll probably keep her forever.
You know, but yeah, I also deal with a very litigious group of people that I'm covering, which was why. And understandably, I think like, you know, I understand why people are, I mean, part of the biggest reason I got into this is I saw, you know, when I launched my book, I saw how reticent traditional media was to cover these cases, especially if one has not had a criminal conviction, which is most of them.
And I was like, oh, like literally no one else is going to do this. At least not that I can see.
Well, and there's even a, like Mike Weber, what they do there is phenomenal how they handle these sorts of situations. And you just don't see that in hospitals around the country.
Right. I mean, their program is, it isn't that there are more cases where he's at, of course, it's that they do a better job recognizing it.
And so it's, you know, to spread that even is huge. Yeah.
And it's I mean, and definitely like Mike Weber was so integral to the launch of the show. And this is, you know, part of the reason we are doing this book together that this book together that The Mother Next Door that comes out in February, that is about three of his cases, and really just about his career and how he sort of came to be this very well known detective in this arena.
And, yeah, I mean, so it definitely like, I think that that is what is so exciting to me about podcasting very different from like, you know, I come from a really traditional media right come from book publishing um i was a publicist so i worked a lot with the traditional media back in the aughts where it was like obviously a very very different landscape um and and i've seen like how like those challenges are and like how the these stories in particular get shut down right and so it definitely took some doing to figure out how to cover cases and be legally, you know, robust enough to put them out, right? And respectful. I mean, that's one of my favorite things about your show is that you feel like you're a part of the story and it doesn't feel like you're just invasive in it, if that makes sense.
Yeah, thank you. Yeah.
It's a powerful thing that you can do both, you know, and do it in such a way that it doesn't seem like you're just trying to, you know, pounce. Yeah.
Well, thank you. I appreciate that.
And I mean, you know, it seemed to you like you, you know, a lot of your first season was about your own story, but you did talk to other people who'd had interactions with anyone you interviewed your parents. And, you know, like, I mean, you interview that your dad was on the show a lot.
And, and that's, I mean, that's really, it's very like emotionally high stakes stuff that you do with your work. And I do think, you know, I do think your read is right that you, that is the reason that it connected with so many people.
And so let's talk a little bit about the reaction to your show, because so you had, you know, you launched in the summer of 2024. Yeah, we released the first week of June.
Okay. And so before we even get into like how the show took off, I mean, what were you, and you like, I think it's a little delusional about my expectations, but I think is like, is kind of helpful in some ways, because I think if you know, like, if you know how bad the odds are that your show will be able to monetize, I mean, that was just the numbers wise, they're very bad bad like the idea of like the money that we spend on our podcast like launching an independent podcast and thinking and expecting to make that money back is like never like not in a million years we do that like full delulu like full delulu and yet here we are um but i think it's like it is good to have a little bit of that delusion going into mean, it's like, you also have to like sort of learn your lessons and, you know, be whatever and like get a fuller picture as you go.
But like, that is actually helpful in the arts. And like, it's, you just want to like, you kind of have to have that energy when you're going in.
Otherwise you just like, well talk yourself out of it, right? You have to, I mean, essentially manifest. And I'm not saying it's a good, By the way, I'm not recommending that someone go spend six figures to make a season of a podcast.
Like, probably. Be prepared.
Yeah. I mean, unless you like, listen, I don't know what your financial situation is listening to this.
But like, definitely like, don't go into debt. Don't quit your job.
Like, don't do anything crazy. Because like, probably the chance that you and I are sitting here with it, like, yeah, one I mean essentially it was my savings so I had a savings and I was like okay I'm gonna full send this and see because if I was gonna do it I wanted to do it right I wanted the production to be well I want you know I didn't want to be in my closet recording it and so it's like okay if do this, let's try.
But I was, I had enough money for a season, essentially. So we released and we were releasing every week.
And so we didn't have a subscription. We didn't have like a way to binge or sort of do any of that, which I didn't understand any anyways.
So I i wouldn't have but we're releasing every week um the end of june so after four episodes had been released apple put us in the carousel um the new and noteworthy and then you guys were like the top like well banner on the yeah you were in the carousel at the same time, because I like, that's right. That's what I want to add my creators.
We love things. And so we were both there, but then they put me at the front.
So when you opened your Apple app, it was, you know, and it's my eyeballs. It's just my eyeballs like deadpan.
People still can't decide if they like the eyeballs or not, like if it's creepy or anyways. I love the eyeballs.
Cover art is great. And we struggle.
And honestly, cover art is a huge thing. Like our title and the cover art and the fact that we got put there, we were getting like what? Like 20,000.
I think we were at like 20,000, 30,000 downloads before we went to Apple. It wasn't like- Which again, like honestly solid for a solid for an independent podcast launch for sure.
It was, you know, but I also had paid and had some promos and other people's.

So you did a little bit of paid marketing when you launched?

Yes, I did. I didn't do a ton because by the end, you know, I was out of money.
But once we were in that Apple carousel at the top, July, I cannot even explain what happened in July because two weeks after that, I hit number one on Apple podcast. Like I, and I remember watching over like two days as like, we hit the charts and then we started going up.
And then I was like, we're still going. And then I passed like Jon Stewart and The Daily Show.
And then I passed Joe Rogan. And I'm like, what the fuck is happening? Like, and the funny Delulu part for me is that I didn't know that that was weird.
I was like shocked. But I was also like, oh, this is really cool.
And everybody's like, who? What is it? Like are you? What is happening? For context, like for an indie podcast to do that. I mean, like just four weeks in, we didn't have a full season out.
Like we were still releasing every week. And our reviews were not amazing.
Everybody either loves it or they hates it. So we're right at like just just under four stars but it's either this is the best podcast i've ever heard or what is this trash this is not true crime and it's the i mean and it's and we have stayed in that same review spot this whole time i have to say and we should definitely talk about reviews and that's a whole other funny thing but like it is i mean i i think if if you're getting i mean i think there are some shows where like just like the topic is not so controversial that like it but like i tend to think when i see podcast reviews i mean i take them with a sort of like oh if someone has like a lot of five-star reviews and a lot of one-star reviews i'm like oh this person's doing something, yeah.
But yeah. And, but I also was not, I've never put out anything that people were able to review.
Which that's intense. That's an intense entry into that.
And people are reviewing my life. Yeah.
And so some of them, some of the reviews are hilarious. Like, what is this person droning on about? Podcast reviewers are, ooh, a great.
Which I get, you know, I get. I mean, I love you.
leave our podcast reviews five stars please but yes all of them five stars but i was like i want to hit a million by my birthday which was a week after episode eight would have released so the whole season would be out and i was like no let's hit a million by my birthday which is eight and a half weeks after we launched the podcast. Like, and again, Delulu, like I didn't even know that it wasn't a, like, nobody would have done that.
What ended up happening that we don't understand is we almost hit 3 million in eight weeks. It became very quickly, like a big story in the industry, your show.
And nobody could explain it to me. And I didn't understand that.
And I still, it wasn't actually until like a month ago, because I got this list of other people's podcasts that I can go guest on. And they have like how many downloads

and they usually get on an episode. And I'm looking at some of these kind of big podcasts and I'm like, oh.
Yeah. You're realizing how much of an outlier.
How much. How crazy those numbers are.
There are some of these that I'm like, that's an amazing show. And they're getting 10,000 downloads an episode.
And I'm like, right now I have 950,000 downloads on ep1, which is, I mean, I'm going to hit a million on that first episode. And I really still don't fully understand.
But because everything happened so fast, we didn't have ads in right away. They weren't host red ads.
So, you know, it's all the span ads and, and there was a lot of money left on the table in July. And because it blew up, it's like, oh, we need to keep the feed going.
Like, you can't let the feed because I'm like, okay, I guess I'll do a second season. We'll keep it going, you know.
And the problem with that is that that is expensive. Well, and it's also, it's a huge shift in format, because we were both in that same position.
I kind of went into that position, like, after season two, and then, you know, made, with anybody who's listened to season three of my show, you know, we're following this case as it was unfolding in this trial. And I was like, OK, I'm going to do an episode on it because there was this horrible Netflix film about the case that was just completely, you know, fictional.
And so I was like, I'll do a roundtable episode about that. And then I was like, ended up deciding to cover this case in in in real time.
And so then I ended up with an, you know, weekly show. And that's why I was like doing so much work on it.
But like, that's not a like to take something from what was essentially, you know, we both made this first seasons of our show, basically as limited series. So yeah, I mean, so we basically have these like eight episode limited series, that was what it was originally.
And so then like, it's not totally clear how to like even make a second season, let alone to go into a weekly format, which is, like, so intense. And I mean, when I was making the third season, it's like I felt like I worked in a newsroom.
I mean, it was totally different than, you know, kind of having, like, the first two seasons where I was, like, because the first two seasons were mostly made before it ever launched. Like, it had this, like, very relaxed sort of timelines.
And you can kind of take your time with it. And so it's just not like a – and again, it's like the last thing you want to do is – and I remember because this is sort of where at some point where I entered the chat, it's like the last thing you want to do is take this show that really worked for people and found an audience and destroy it, right? You don't want to then just start like pumping something into the feed every week that's not, you know, that's not at all the same quality or that doesn't have those

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And remember that shopping with our sponsors is a great way to support the show. I wasn't planning on this becoming my full-time job unless it really sort of did what it did, which I wasn't financially prepared for.
Two, like I had enough money to make season one work, but that's it. There's no reserves.
And everybody is like, you have to keep your feed going, which is when I started getting offers from networks. And I had three offers from three different networks.
Every single offer was enough money to cover production. And that's it.
And I lost a lot of freedom, and they wanted it to be a weekly series. And I didn't know that the quality would be the same if I switched it to that sort of churning out a weekly series, because mine's storytelling, it's very different than an interview situation.
And it's not a chat show. Yeah.
And I didn't want to turn it into a chat show. And so then it's like, okay, I'm not going to do this.
I'm not going to keep doing this because I'm not going to work my ass off, not get paid. And I didn't know how to negotiate with the networks.
I hired an agent that only made money if I went with specific networks. And one of the things that there was one network that offered me a ton of money would have paid for production and doubled like an income for me.
And they had a thing in their contract that I almost missed because I don't know shit. And it was based on 3 million downloads a month.
Yeah. And so I sent back and I was like, Hey, these aren't my numbers every month.
This happened and I hit that, but I can't, I don't know that I can hit that. I need a real minimum guarantee on what my numbers actually are.
So the minimum guarantee, just to explain, is like, basically you get, you know, a monthly minimum. So network will front you that cost, but then it's usually tied to you hitting some kind of download number.
Yeah. And I was supposed to release second season the end of October.
I had a release date for second season and was literally like scrounging money, trying to figure out how to keep it going because everybody was like, you have to, you just have to keep going. And I had talked to my production company, and it was sort of like, let's figure out how to make second season.
And then third season, I'll do freelance, you know, and learn it. But I was trying to keep my feed going, while I'm trying to figure out how to do self production.
Right. Which is not like, it's not automatic.
And especially if you've been having a production company, I mean, which like, I, it wasn't until I really had my feet in the industry and I could be like, okay, who do I need to even hire? Like, what are the rules? Like, who do I trust? How do I find that person? Like, it's not, it's not this sort of like automatic plug and play thing. You know, if you happen to be a person who launched your podcast after, you know, 10 years of working at NPR or in some like, you know, somewhere in the audio industry.
Well, yeah, then you can be like, oh, my friend is a producer and I need this person, this person, this person. But if you're coming in just completely, you know, from another industry in the arts or from not an industry in the arts, then you just don't even know who you need or how to find them or how to find good people.
Well, and my topics are intense. I don't want a random person in the room with me.
Like I need to have some sort of relationship so that I feel comfortable sharing. I will come in and talk on a microphone for an hour and a half.
It turns into a 30-minute episode. That is edited by somebody that is very thoughtful and is in my head about how I want to share the story.
I can't just go- It's a very strong bond. Yeah, the bond with host and producer, that is so integral to podcasting.
And I think that's something that is is it's so behind the scenes and like i know like i have a lot of people you know that talk to me about my show i'm sure you have the same thing where they're like oh i love your show i love the way you do this you do that and i'm like well i was like i will take credit for the parts of it than me and obviously like i'm very very much you know integrated into the you know to my show but like i'm also like yeah i have a great producer and i have you know awesome sound engineers and engineers and my producer does a lot of the sound design. It's like all of those elements, they come together.
But ours is because it's storytelling and it's not just the editing and interview. Sydney is in my brain, which I tell her all the time.
It's scary for me and I've been here for a long time. But she came in and like, got me.
Yeah, it's a real art. It was huge to the success of the show, because she really told it in a way that was authentically me and I could keep it going.
Yeah, with Sid's help. And so what ended up happening in October is I was like, we're not releasing second season, I just can't afford it.
I'm going to go independent now. It was like, okay, I guess I'm going to start a production company.
So yeah, filed baby and off you go. And which, thankfully, I do have other businesses.
And I have done that before. So that side of it, the business side of it has never been the scary side for me.
Like I can start an LLC. I can do all of that.
I know how to, I built my own website. Like I can do all the backend, thankfully, but started BDE Unlimited Productions, which there are 10 or 11 different things that BDE stands for you guys can let me know what you think it is it is exactly what you think it is um but even getting the studio set up and then bringing sid on as my producer um she's independent so if anybody else wants sid we you know we can know, we can do that.
We can both vouch for Sid. I have also worked with Sid.
Phenomenal. And if she has time, I keep her kind of busy right now.
Sid's also making some, working on some projects of her own, which we will be very excited and you will hear about on both of our shows. I'm trying, I want BD to, you know, produce them.
So it's sort of like, okay, let's, you know, maybe. And that is the other thing is finding other revenue sources.
But started the company and, you know, pushed back the release. Signed with True Story, which is, it felt so calming because it didn't feel like this pariah of, you know, I'm selling my soul to share my story.
And that really is what it ended up being. And I think there's so many people, these network people, they came from the music industry.
You know, I have a lot of friends that are in that industry that get kind of raked over the coals in that industry. And it's that same model that they're doing to podcasters.
And podcasts are huge now. I mean, the ad sales and the revenue, it is...
It's a growing industry. it's like, it grows year over year by huge strides, which is so different for me coming from book publishing.
That's sort of like, you know, maybe you have one sector, it's like romance novels grow or like audio books are growing, but it's like, you don't see like the industry itself growing. And with podcasting, it's just like every year it grows by these huge leaps.
And there is a lot of I mean, this is something, you know, this is the reason I started True Story Media with my partner, Ben Watson, who has his company Impressions FM.

And he's, you know, we started working together this year and he's done a phenomenal job with both with my ad sales, but also with just like really helping me understand the industry like marketing tactics and and data and just all of these things that have been so helpful to me as a creator. And and then I was hearing a lot of stories from friends who just got into these horrible situations that were just exploitative.
And I was like, well, this industry is nothing without the people creating the content, there should be much more respect for that end of things. And so I really, you know, worked with Ben to design a network that I would have said yes to, right? Like, like that has a, you know, yeah, a sense of community, like a strong brand in terms of like what the shows are, what we are and what we're not, you know, really utilizing like cross promotion.
And because that's the other thing for podcasts is like, you know, cross promoting with other podcasts is like the way to build an audience, right? That is like so effective. It's huge.
And there's so much, like you need, you need it. And it's for me to even talk to you, someone that has been doing it for a few years more, like that knowledge is invaluable.
And to have somebody that's willing to share, but that's how people get their podcasts is across promotion. Yeah.
That's, that's how, I mean, that's like the number one sort of tactic to, to be able to build a show. And so, you know, looking for ways to like offer that to creators and also, you know, and also for obviously for, for my own show, but yeah.
And just looking at like, okay, giving the best revenue share possible. And, you know, and we have like a profit sharing model with True Story Media and making the contract term completely flexible, right? Come in when you want, leave when you want.
We're not trying to hold anybody hostage. It's like, we're helping with ad sales and we're helping you grow your show.
So we will take a percentage of that. But like these other things where it's like, if you get a movie deal or a book deal or whatever,

we'll cheer you on. But like, we're not going to try and take it.
Because it only grows the podcast, which only grows the network.

And it's sort of like, it seemed so, I mean, I think the way that a lot of this industry works

to me is extremely short-sighted, right? Because it's like, okay, if you want, like,

if you acquire a show, don't kill it. Like, then you won't get money from it.

Thank you. short-sighted right because it's like okay if you want like if you acquire a show don't kill it like right then you won't get money from it like even just from like obviously from an ethical standpoint it's terrible but like uh you know you should never count on people's ethics to necessarily steer them even from a business perspective it seems short-sighted and stupid to like yeah why would you not want to do everything you can to grow the shows on your network so that they make more money? You're getting a percentage of that.
Like, hello. Not a math whiz over here, but it's just business.
It's so silly. But you want to like, you know, I really wanted to like create an environment that could be sustainable.
And especially with true crime, right? Especially people that are doing the stuff that I also admire as a listener, who are really like, tackling difficult things and telling personal stories and helping other people tell their first person stories. That is really difficult, emotional wearing work.
And you don't need to be like, it's so stressful to be trying to do that work.

And also just worrying that like, you're not going to make enough money to keep it going. And it's like, listen, it is a challenge no matter what to like make enough revenue to actually support your show, let alone to like make it part of your income or your whole income.
And there's only ever going to be like, you know, some percentage of podcasts are able to do that. But even within that, you know, even if it's like a hobbyist show, or it's like someone's sort of part time gig, like just to be able to monetize that as well as it can be monetized to be able to reach as big of an audience as it can, so that like creators can mostly focus on making their show and know it's in good hands.
And you know, like Ben Watson Watson, who's my partner, like he is just so trustworthy. I, I, I heart Ben.
Yeah. Yeah.
He's amazing. And I, I, the poor guy, I send him emails all the time and my subject line is always like new girl question.
And he's so knowledgeable, so accessible, which is not easy, right? It's like a lot of, a lot of, there's just so much opacity around the business stuff. And like, there isn't that like, you know, ad sellers like, you know, tend to sort of stay in their lane.
Like Ben is like, not, not he's in all the lanes, right? He's just, and I think that that's what makes him such a good partner. And, you know, I was very impressed.
Like when I was talking to when I was trying to find a new ad seller last year, and talking to a couple of, you know the same companies you were talking to. And like, Ben was the only one who sent me like projections where he showed me the math, right? He just sent me like the algorithm that he was using.
Like, he's like, here's how I came across that number. And like, you know, and then like, he's a big, like under promise over deliver guy too.
So it's like, we've by far beat those predictions, but I was like, and his contract is two pages. Yeah.
And it's essentially, that is all taking up like, this is your company name. This is my company name.
Right, right. It's just like, it's just the basics.
You know, some of the network deals like 20 pages. So onerous.
Insane. I think that we went through like five or six rounds of negotiations on that and it didn't get better.

It was getting worse every single time.

And the lawyers are always treating yourself. The home with Duncan is where you want to be.
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Not available in all states. There are some very bad actors in the industry, for sure.
And this is a very burgeoning industry. It is still figuring out what it is and what the industry standards are.
So this isn't all nefarious, right? We're still figuring out what the industry standards are. It's the Wild West.
It's so unlike, you know, with book publishing, right? It's like book publishing has been the same business model within traditional book publishing forever, right? And you can't do business in book publishing on the traditional side really without an agent. And my agent, I've been with my agent for almost 11 years.
She is amazing. I would never do business in that industry without her.
Like we do not have those same industry standards for podcasting, right? And so it's sort of like the agents to me, question mark, still not sure. I talked to some and I was like, I don't like where I'm at right now with having built a show already.
I don't know what, you know, what, what I would hire you for right now. But like the two biggest companies that you're going to get most of your downloads from are Apple and Spotify.
And so decisions that are made at those companies have huge downstream effects. Like when Apple did its iOS update, and that was like different, you know, that was that changed how, you know, that changed how downloads were counted.
And like, for us, we lost, I mean, I don't know, we went from like, sort of 800,000 to like 600,000. So like, we got a hit, but like, not massive.
There were shows that lost 90% of their numbers from that update and like like, that is, I mean, that's like decimates your show. Yeah.
So like, and then, you know, Spotify, like, is, you know, adding new features all the time. And like, they now are transitioning into doing video for, you know, premium content subscribers, which is a big industry story.
And there's this huge, like, sort of push to, to add video content and do, you know, for Spotify, for YouTube. And like, that's how a lot of people are listening and discovering the podcast is on YouTube.
And so it's like, there are all these things that like really affect how everything else is done. And that to me actually is very exciting.
But it also like really means you have to like, know and be working with people who really understand the industry, which is what Ben brought in so much experience with all that. And it, but it also adds another cost.
Yeah. More people.
And in our case, a lot of our stuff can't be video because a lot of my guests are anonymous or, you know, other people that are telling their story are anonymous in certain ways. But when we can add video, that's just another thing to learn.
And it's another job. I mean, it's more work.
And I do, you know, I am so grateful to everyone that listens to podcasts, but it is expensive. And so anyone that is listening to a podcast, if you can support your favorite show in any way.
Well, yeah, like subscribing to a show, obviously, like that's a huge thing for us. But like, also just sitting through our ads.
Well, it's like, just like letting the ads play. Like, I know, I know commercials are like, people get annoyed by them.
And like, well, I certainly try and be judicious about how many ads I play on my show. Some shows definitely overdo it.
But like, just know that like, if you are sitting there listening to an ad, like you are monetarily, you are meaningfully helping that show continue to be made, you know, sharing on social media, leaving reviews, like I think even mixed reviews like help, right? We'll talk about reviews, any reviews, you know, leaving comments on Spotify, like all that engagement, like it really does help. And like, there is like, I think sometimes we can get detached from like, how, you know, how expensive and time consuming it is to make the content that you love.
Because as a, you know, if you're listening to a podcast in general, you're getting it for free. Anything you can do to sort of like help that creator keep making it is very very appreciated and that's how especially independent shows we don't have a company that's fronting the cost for our shows this isn't like we have to make it some car company that is doing a podcast that is essentially an ad yeah right it's that is a big ad for that company but yeah okay so uh we touched on this a little bit earlier, but one of the things about having a podcast that really breaks out is the conversation is no longer one way because you start hearing from a lot of people.
And we have very different approaches to dealing with this. So I thought this would be really fun to talk about.
So tell us about the response to the show and how you have, especially with this being your first, you know, I've had books come out, which like none of them have had like this kind of, you know, like this kind of audience that the show has. So it was definitely like different experience.
But I have had that experience of like people critiquing my work and you know, and getting in touch with me about it. So what was that like for you? Like, how did you hear from people? And like, what what was the feedback? And how did you interact? It was well, in the beginning, it was super fun, because we had like 10 reviews and we had five stars.
And I was like, oh, we're doing such a good job. And I think we have like a couple thousand reviews, you know, and it is.
So there's Apple and those reviews, people rate and review. And as creators, we don't get to respond.
You know, they just put put it up whatever they're thinking in the moment which as a creator i'm putting out whatever i'm thinking in the moment so right that's the deal you make i mean it's definitely like when you're putting art into the world like you like that's kind of my ethos is like well like what people think about it is like none of my business you know like that that like that that's a deal making. People can think whatever they want.
They can say whatever they want. That's why you make it public and it's not a journal.
And at the end of every one of my episodes and I know yours, we say, please rate and review us. Like we understand.
I will say that there are some people that are a little overly harsh, especially personal stuff. So I stopped looking at Apple reviews because it's just so wild all over the place.
And I'm like, I just, there were a few people that made some comments about my sister and how my family handled the case after she was killed.

And just for anyone that was paying attention, this December at the New Year's Eve is the 20th anniversary of her death. So my sister passed 20 years ago.
This isn't a case that is ongoing. It isn't a case that we could even reopen at this point.
But so that's an entirely different, like, we did our best with what happened, but people were mean on the reviews, some of them. And then we had amazing reviews.
And I had opened up on my website, I have a, you know, connect with me directly. And all through July, so many emails and messages of people that were so supportive, and also felt comfortable and wanted to share their story.
And that's really how this season two has developed. And so that part is wonderful.
Spotify, I love the comments on episodes because somebody can leave a comment. I can leave one reply and then that's it.
It's like internet gold. And to the snarky ones, I usually am politely aggressive if they were aggressive to start.
which a lot of it is like, I hope you find something that you do enjoy listening to. There are so many options.
One comment, one guy, my favorite one, he was like, I hate this show. I cannot figure out how to get it out of my, you know, playlist and all these like big long review.

And I was like, imagine taking the time to leave this comment instead of learning how to use your app. Like call your grandchild or like, you know, look up a Google tutorial.
Unfollow the show. It's really not that complicated.
But so those ones drive me crazy. I did get in a Reddit rabbit hole and I avoided it for a little bit.
And then a couple people were saying things that were just wild assumptions that really sort of pissed me off. Like, I don't mind if people don't like me.
I don't like misinformation that's based on assumptions. You listen to a couple hours of my life.
You, you don't know the whole story. You don't know me.
I'm a high school dropout. I dropped out my sophomore year of high school.
Everything that I have done has been literally built from zero dollars. My family moved here with zero dollars in their stuff in their car and built everything.
And I'm not saying that I don't live a lovely life now. I built it and I have earned every fucking dollar.
So my story isn't, there are millions and millions of stories that They're so much worse in so many horrific ways. Share your story because somebody relates to you too.
Yeah. It's this idea that like, yeah, you have to have like the most dramatic or the worst.
And it's like storytelling is an art because it doesn't mean that it's just the most dramatic story. And I think especially like real life storytelling actually is more challenging than fiction, I think, in many ways.
And that's sort of like you were alluding to sort of like the saturation of the memoir category in book publishing. And it's so true because, you know, as I've been working in book publishing, you know, my first job was with Random House where I worked for my 20s.
So I've been in book publishing a long time. So something I hear from a lot of people is like, well, someone should write a book about my life, like, because my life is, you know, and I'm like, well, yeah, like, I actually think everyone's life is interesting, like, you know, to a degree, right? It's like humans are interesting, families are interesting.
It's trying to put that, like, it's the art is on putting that on the page, or getting it into a show where you can make it into a compelling story that people want to listen to. And so I think like, it's a very thin critique.
And I think probably the breakout success of the show was part of what fueled some of that negative feedback. Well, and one person, the review said, it sounds like this person is just telling their story, talking about themselves.
And I'm like, yep. Yeah, that's literally the show.
Actually the name of the show. Like it's meant to be like...
What was your first clue? My face on the cover? I was thinking about it. I'm like, isn't that what most podcasts are? This is something that is...
In this genre. Yeah, storytelling.
This is something that is interesting to me and I want to share it. Do you find it interesting? Then listen.
And that's it. And so I will say that getting into this side of the world, I had the best entrance because it blew up, because it went viral And so, you know, for it, which is why in season two, I'm sharing other people's stories because it is a big lift.
And so it's like here, I, I can, I do have a space now for other people to share their stories. And I, I want to be able to continue that.
I think the other thing, which I wonder how you're dealing with this, especially given that you are now, and I think this is a very cool thing and a very interesting thing as the show evolves and is on the air for a while, that it does start to be in conversation with its audience so much more. And we are doing, that's kind of what we're using our Case talk about like, you know, like the person who got in touch because they have CRPS and didn't, you know, or like a person who, you know, is a survivor or these other experts that are that are interesting to get in touch.
So I really love that piece of it. But I also find it, you know, and fortunately, I mean, this was a big part of why I started

the nonprofit before the show was because I knew that I was going to need to have some

place to send people that is not me, right?

Because I can't give you legal information. And fortunately, I mean, this was a big part of why I started the nonprofit before the show was because I knew that I was going to need to have some place to send people that is not me.

Right. Because I can't give you legal advice on your case.

If it's a court case, I can't help you find a therapist.

I mean, I just don't have the ability to do those things.

But, you know, I have this network of amazing experts, you know, from the APSAC committee who are all very dedicated that sort of help field a lot of the responses that come in from the show that then go to Munchausen support, which is the nonprofit, which I am, again, still involved with. So I knew I needed some infrastructure there.
But I think like for me, I realized like in the very beginning, when I would get notes, especially from survivors, like, you know, get on the phone with them. And I was just like, oh, this is going to wear me out so fast.
And I will not be able to keep making the show. Like I have to choose between this and making the show.
And I wonder for you, as you say, you're hearing from a lot of people with, you know, their trauma. And I understand because it's like, it is a such an intimate medium and people have a very strong parasocial connection with you and they feel like they can tell you.
And that feels, you know, like a huge honor and sort of responsibility that can be tough to bear. So i wonder for you like how do you deal with like those responses from people that you're getting where they're really sharing a lot of personal stuff with you it's um originally it was really overwhelming it was amazing because i was getting messages of support and i you know related to this or i related to that or this made me feel a certain way about something else in their life.
So, and that's really why I told my story. So, it was amazing.
But then to read through hundreds and hundreds of these messages, especially when season one was being released, because I was new to this, and my story got harder and harder as the episodes went out. And so I'm processing myself, you know, what's happening.
I talked to my therapist a lot about how I talk to listeners because I'm not a therapist. I cannot provide resources myself.
I can be a space to share with. You know, I can provide links and places where people can get resources.
And so I love hearing the stories, but I can't, I can't fix the problems, I can just create a space where people can connect. And, and that's, it's, but it's really hard, because I, I do video calls, 25 minute video calls with listeners.
And it's, it's a lot, but I set it up so that I'm like a couple days a week, I have a couple hours, you know, that I will do this. and very specific.
Sid and I had a long conversation about it too

because I was like, you need to be in therapy

because I was like you need to be in therapy because I'm I'm doing this but she's editing this I mean she's going through and like oh here's here's how this goes and it's I mean you spend so much time with it I mean yeah it's the same thing for my team like? Actually, you know, because she's the person who listens to all the raw tape multiple times and pulls the selects, which is like a big part of the job of a producer for a show like this. Like she's spending actually way more time listening to those details over and over again than I am.
So I think, yeah, it's a lot. It is a lot.
Because it is, this is, it's heavy stuff. And I think it's really important to get it out there.
And I, you know, until Sid and I don't, whatever, do you think I'll ever run out of something to say? Because I don't know, I always think I will. And then I, and then I keep talking, but you know, it's worth it to me.
I think that you are moving the needle on awareness in an abuse that is, as you said, grossly under reported and prosecuted. And it's just, it's not out there.
And so it's hard and it's expensive, but I think it's worth it. And I think that there's so much power in this medium.
Yeah, I agree. And it's scary.
And I don't want anyone listening to be like, oh my God, I don't want to jump into this. It sounds like there's so much.
It's worth it. It's really rewarding.
I mean, I think that's like, you know, that's something a lot of people ask me specifically with my show. You know, we're talking about very, very difficult stories of child abuse.
And it is difficult material to spend with it. And in the beginning, I did find some of it triggering.
I have really, that is very well managed now. It is also so rewarding and it's so like coming from in the situation in my own life, feeling extremely powerless.
To be able to be of use to this cause is extremely um healing for me and so i think that that and to be able to like meet all these people and and you know sit with them and it's really like i i guess i get way more out of it than and i think it's just about like managing all those all those pieces so britney um you have a big year coming up I have a big year coming up. I have a big year coming up.
We have a big year coming up. We have a big year.
2025. So like what's on deck for you next? In season two, we cover all sorts of different topics.
We're not sticking with just dating or grief. We have domestic violence, sexual abuse, just regular old divorce life.
We span all topics and I'm excited to keep that going. I am working on turning this into a memoir so that there's more depth around season one and season two stories.
And, you know, Sunday dinner cookbook, I'm super excited about.

But yeah, and then we're gonna just see what happens. And season five is...
Yes. So season five, which is the story of Sophie Hartman, who is a white evangelical missionary who adopted two little girls from Zambia and was investigated a couple of years ago for medical child abuse here in Seattle, where we both live.
So that is the story of our season five. We are putting all those episodes in the can right now.
So again, if you are a subscriber, you will be able to get all eight episodes. It's the first time we've ever done that to get everything in the can before launch.
So that has been quite a deadline machine, but very, very excited to share that one with people. I think I go into every season being like, no, this is the craziest case we've ever covered.
But this one really has some unique elements in terms of, you know, sort of diving into the evangelical stuff. And there's a lot of interesting elements of the sort of transracial adoptions and that kind of thing.
So yeah, I'm very excited to share that season with listeners. And then we will have another season.
We'll have our sixth season in 2025 later in the year. And then we are in that weekly format.
So I have a lot of interesting topics we're going to be touching on in the next year. I am also doing a tour at some point.
Details still TBD on that. And I am launching a book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, which I co-authored with Detective Mike Weber, who fans of the show will know.
So we are going to be doing some press and some events. So keep your eyes out for all of that.
And then we're also kind of officially launching True Story Media, which is the network that you joined us on, Brit. And yeah, so we're really excited about that.
And just I'm talking to a lot of potential creator partners. And so we're just gonna be getting all that up and running.
And I think that will keep me out of trouble. Well, I doubt that.
I don't know that there's anything that will keep either of us out of trouble. But I think we can handle it.
I think we have a good handle on the trouble. Yeah, I feel ready.
You know, like being in your 40s, like if you are a woman and listening to this in like your 20s or, you know, or 30s or whatever, and just know that like being in your 40s rules, like it is so much better than like it just you really like I can't speak highly enough's a it's a it's a time when you feel like you can really like do the things that you were meant to do and kind of like yeah it's it's really been are you um do you swear on your show I'm trying to I don't think I've ever heard that you swear no my dad gets mad if I swear actually he gets mad if anyone's I remember I I remember I was covering something from. It's not really because of my dad.
It's more just a sort of like. It's a different style.
That's kind of just my style. But yeah, I did cover some very irresponsible coverage of the Maya Kowalski case that happened on a podcast that's called Guys We Fucked.
And I did say the name of the podcast to attribute the clips i was obviously um and uh my dad was like i don't know about that vulgar language that show is called i was like well dad that is the name of the show so it's not i mean i think i think i probably do especially in the first season where there's a little bit more of me like off the cuff talking but yeah no i don't well um i haven't met your yet, but I want him to like me. So here's what I'll say.

He's lovely.

So what I'll say is that every day I give less Fs about how other people think that we should.

You can say fuck on my show.

It's okay.

You can swear on my show.

I don't edit it out when other people do.

I want your dad to like me.

My dad will still like you.

Because my dad loves you.

And your dad's adorable.

But yeah, I give less fucks.

Thank you. Because my dad loves you.
And your dad's adorable. But yeah, like I give less fucks about how people want me to tell my story.
Yeah. And so I'm going to just keep telling it the way that I want.
It's a liberating era of your life for sure. And then it's like, if you don't want to listen, don't listen.
Thank you so much for coming to my studio. Oh, thank i'll give you a delight and if i come and you're just in here recording you know it's fine i might be unfortunately it is a little bit of a drive um from where i have parking that that is that's helpful that's helpful when you're coming down to nanto in seattle so thank you so much brit and uh excited for both of us to just like rule the world.
Yeah, I'm really I'm really excited. Go get them.
I really appreciate that. I have a friend in this business.
I think it's huge. Well, I appreciate being your friend.
Also, happy to be that person for you. Nobody Should Believe Me Case Files is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop.

Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett.

Administrative support from Nola Karmusch. We'll see you next time.
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