Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar

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Well, hello, V. Hi.
What's going on? Oh, man. You know, 2025 is 2025 and harder than I anticipated.
I don't know if it's harder than you anticipated because you probably anticipated a lot more. I have to say odd number years are tougher for me.
I find like things even number years for whatever, like more joyful. But like, yeah, 2013 sucked for me.
2015 was real bad. 2025 is like a bummer, which means that we could only get better from here, I guess.
You know, now that you mentioned it, same because like I was married in an even year. I was born in an even year.
Both my kids were born in even years. Correct.
You know? That's a good point. And then 2011 was when my whole family thing came up.
And I have to tell you, this is totally an aside, but I was spelunking through my old Facebook post trying to find archival whatevers. And I found a post from on uh New Year's Eve going into 2011 where I said I don't see any reason that 2011 isn't going to be the best year ever.
Sooner be known to you. I know yeah so it's an odd year so we could chalk it up to that.
Okay I like that I like having something to blame. Um and also gentle reminder that presidents are their most powerful on their first day in office.
And like a used car, they diminish in value as time goes on. And I think we are now 30 days in and we're starting to see the shock and awe that people have been dealing with from him over the last 30 days, you know, sort of level out to some level.
He can't possibly do more than he's already done. I mean, we're through the cabinet nominations.
We're through some of the like top line, most cruel possible policies being put forward. The court has slapped down a bunch of stuff.
So I think if politics is worrying you too, or you feel like everything just is going too fast, also know that we probably are through the fast part. That is a really good perspective, V.
And, you know, just by way of introduction, you are my and many people's favorite and most trusted news source in these trying times. Thank you.
And you are a journalist, you're a podcaster, you're a TikTok and YouTube and Substack creator. You do incredible, thorough, fact-check, deep, insightful reporting, and you somehow manage to stay positive, which is truly you've been such a touchstone for me, both as just a listener and a person who consumes your content, but also as a creator and how to keep a light on in,

I will say, an often particularly hopeless feeling corner of this cause that we talk about on the show. So I just thank you for all of that.
And, you know, I am, as I mentioned, a proud dust bunny. Yeah.
So can you tell us, how did you come to be under the desk news? How did this all get started? Yeah. So, you know, it started on January 6th, just sort of out of nowhere.
And yes, that January 6th. I was working in this company, and I was trying to figure out how to send food to unhoused veterans in Tennessee during the pandemic because it was like really difficult.
So we're on them with the VA and I'm like watching CNN, you know, above my laptop as many people were in the background. And I had been a caterer in the Capitol before.
I was like a chef caterer person and I'd worked in the Capitol a bunch. And I was like, I don't think you're supposed to be there.
I think that they, I could like recognize they were in hallways that we weren't allowed to go in. So I was like, I don't think that this is normal.
And as many of us were in early pandemic, I was like on with the VA. So from my like hips up, I was wearing a suit and from the bottom down, I was wearing like Nike shorts.
So I like slid under my desk in this like half disheveled suit looking thing. And I was like, Mike, Mike Pence, here's what the 25th Amendment is.
And if you invoke it, you can call in the National Guard and kind of end all this. People thought that was very funny.
I thought nothing of it. I had been making like cooking TikToks, teaching people how to apply for PPP loans.
But this was my first like civics TikTok. And then my friend Randy was like, you better get back under that desk and tell people what's going on now.
So then that kind of turned into like civics 101. And then that turned into Joe Biden's first 100 days.
And then now, you know, we're what, like four years almost to the day, like since. And it just took off from there.
But it really started with this idea of like, sort of like funny. And then it became like the ethos of it became people are really looking for good information right now.
They're feeling out of control. And while we can't give them necessarily good news, we can remind them that they're smarter than they think and that there are levers to power that we still have to pull.
And so like, we're going to be okay kind of thing. And that's where this early civics education really factored in.
And then, you know, I just started being like,

the thing that the news doesn't do is tell us what happened that day, because it just feels like it's also, you know, shock and awe. So I was like, I'm just going to tell people,

hey, it's Monday night. And here's what happened just today.
And I think in the pandemic time,

that was even more important. And then folks, you know, if they heard a story that they were curious about, because I was doing, you know, an aggregation of stories from the day, then they could go look more into it.
But if they weren't interested in that, it didn't take too much of their day. Yeah, I love that.
And I think that that you turned out to be, you turned out to be the hero we needed in that period and going forward, you know? Well, and let me tell you, so that's under the desk news. That's what you know is the everyday.
But the origin of good news only is even a little bit funnier and kind of based on the same like didn't think this was going to be a thing and then it became a thing. So every Thursday we do banana shirt good news only.
And that came because, okay, this is exposing, but I'm going to tell you, I had surgery. And I'm okay.
But I had like this little surgery. And I was on like a little bit of pain medication, which made me like a little bit giggly.
And my mom's a nurse. So she was like helping me.
But my wife had to buy me button-up shirts for this particular surgery that I had. And so I'd have these button-up shirts for recovery.
And she couldn't find any button-up shirts that were soft. And Target was selling this silly banana shirt that was like a pajamas shirt.
And so I had that on. And I was trying to hide that I had had surgery because I didn't want anybody to worry about me.
And so I was like, I don't want to talk about negative stuff. I'm only going to tell them good stories tonight.
And my mom was like, I think that's great, sweetheart. I think you should do that.
You know, because mom. So Banana Shirt Good News Only came out of me being like kind of high post-surgery and like needing something to feel good about.
Because I don't know anybody else. Anytime I've had to have surgery, I get like post-surgery blues.
I don't know how to explain it. You just feel like a little down from the medicine or like it just feel icky when you're when you're recovering.

And so that's how Banana Shirt Good News Only came.

And then people the next Thursday were like, hey, where's my banana shirt? And then this became like, oh, see, every Thursday people want to see that things are working. That's amazing.
Thank you so much for sharing that anecdote. And I feel like, you know, that really speaks to why what you do works, because you are a very reliable, solid news source.
But the delivery is very much our friend V telling us some things in their suit or in their video shirt. And I think that that's really something that, you know, especially, again, to, you know, talk about the timing of it all, like, in that moment, when we needed both information and human connection, it really was, you know, this, this perfect time.
I wonder for you, because this is something that I've really enjoyed listening to you talk about on your wonderful podcast that you do with Sammy Sage from Betches Media, American Fever Dream. It is one of my favorite podcasts.
And I have loved listening to you guys, especially as you were talking about, you know, going to the Democratic National Convention and sort of talking about, you know, really this transition that I feel like has really been speeding up. And is it like kind of full velocity right now of this transition that, you know, you and I are the same age.
And, you know, I have been in podcasting only the last couple of years, but have been in and around sort of media, working in books, working as a publicist, you know, that we've been watching happen for, I don't know, the last 20 years. and that it suddenly is, you know, really accelerating of legacy media going away or changing shape dramatically and new media really coming to the forefront.
I've loved hearing your thoughts about this on the show. And I wanted to ask you for yourself, being that you started this project that is now your full time job.
Full-time gig. Right? And, like, I have such a similar entry point, right? I started this project that is now your full-time job.
Full-time gig. Right.
And I have such a similar entry point, right? I started this as a limited series that I saw as a passion project that I saw. And then lo and behold, now it's my full-time job.
And I feel very lucky to have that. But it was such an unexpected career turn.
And I was always interested in you know, went through a strong period of wanting to be Barbara Walters, you know, when I was growing up and like, and like really thinking that might be something that I wanted to pursue. But I did not plan to sort of become a journalist.
And it's taken me a little while to sort of embrace, like, just be able to say that, I think, I mean, you must have gone through kind of a similar sort of personal journey. And I wonder like, when did you really make that transition to like, okay, this is not just something I'm doing in this lighthearted, you know, way or, you know, and really like embrace that part of like, no, I am a journalist.
You know, I deserve to be here as much as anybody. And you are a journalist, not a, what did NPR call you? Newsfluencer.
Not a newsfluencer. Oh my God.
I mean, I love NPR. Have the toe bag.
Love it. You know.
I do too. Same.
That's why I say about that episode, I felt it was worth criticism because it was such a departure from what we know from NPR. And I thought they could take the criticism and they can.

Yeah, of course they can.

Yeah.

And, you know, that was a call in, not a call in, right? When did you really sort of realize like, oh, OK, no, like we are we are doing journalism here. This is this has all the bells and whistles.
This is as robust as reporting that you're going to see in like a legacy media news outlet. So I think this goes back to all the different things I've been in my life that I never really feel like I'm that thing until somebody tells me I'm not.
And then like, nobody loves me. Like, I love me being challenged.
Like I all of a sudden invoke like all the confidence in the world once I'm challenged. So like you say, you wanted to be Barbara Walters.
I wanted to be Monica Lewinsky, not in the exact same way, but I loved her as like a cultural, political, like just spectacle. Okay.
So like, when we were young, we're the same age, we both watched that 2020 special. I was obsessed with her red lipstick.
It's the first time I was like really interested in politics at all. That interview had to be somewhat close to my birthday because I got it for that.
So, and that was the thing. And my mom would have done anything for me to want something feminine.
That was big for her. So I got the Club Monica lipstick.
And I was just obsessed with the idea of Monica Lewinsky and such a young person to have such power over essentially the presidency and to be like a regular person. And I thought that that was so interesting.
And I think that stuck with me as like a formative thing more than anything else. When it came to this idea that regular people can absolutely break America, you know, for just, you know, one thing that they do, that's a very human thing, let's say, falling in love with somebody that you shouldn't love, or just the way she dealt with it.
I've always like really admired Monica Lewinsky. And I've always felt like I'm just a regular person, like even on my social media and everything, they'll be like, well, what are you? I'm like, I'm a really good friend.
And that is how I like approach everything that I do. When folks are like, I feel like you're my friend.
I was like, because I, that's how I am in the world. I am a really good friend, whether that's the people I've been friends with my whole life or the drunk girl I just met in the bathroom.
I am a good friend or to the kids who used to work for me. I am a good friend.
I make sure everything's going well. When it comes to when did I become a journalist, when I was a cook, you never feel like a chef.
No matter how many big restaurants you work at, no matter what dish you come up with, no matter how many awards your restaurant wins, you never feel like a chef. Until somebody turns to you and you're in the heat of service and they disrespect you.
And then you're like, that's yes, chef. And then all of a sudden you're chef after that, right? But you have to have that moment where you're challenged and then all of a sudden you're not so insecure about being chef anymore.
And I had that with journalism when I started, when the Pew Research came out. Now, the whole two years I did Under the Desk News before it became popular with the mainstream, all I heard from media people were like, oh, you're fun to have on as a guest.
You have no career. This is sort of a flash in the pan.
This is your Monica Lewinsky moment, right? This is your little thing where you're a special person of the day, but it's not going to go anywhere and you won't have any lasting effect. And then Pew Research published something saying that one in three Americans get their news on TikTok.
And then all of a sudden, I became the biggest shit there ever was. And everybody wanted to know how I did it.
And why do you have millions of followers? And these people are really important. And oh my God, this is your full-time job.
So then they tried to buy under the desk. And I had a meeting where I got called to Miami.
And I thought I was just going to be like, it was with, I'll just tell you, it was with NBC. And it was me, this is where I met Sammy, actually.
And they were inviting in certain people to see if there was like anything they could do to sort of buy new media, because it's not something that they had. And I didn't realize that.
I thought I was just going down to help them with their new media. Because again, I am a friend first.
And I was like, oh, they must like what I do and maybe want me to help them a little bit. That sounds good.
And they wanted to buy under the desk. And I started crying.
And I was like, I'd rather keep it, I think. And they were like, are you here alone? You have no manager, no publicist.
I was like, I just thought I was coming to like help you as a friend. Just trying to be your friend, NBC.
Just trying to be your friend. And they're like, what? We sent a car, like a black car from your house to a first class airline ticket to this super fancy hotel in Miami to have a meeting with the chairman of NBC.
And you thought you were coming in as a buddy. And I'm like, I don't know any different.
Like, what do I know? I was like, all right, sounds good. So that was the first time.
And then I kept it. And they were like, you're a sweet kid.
Like, that's quite lovely. And you know what? You should.
And like, good for you. And that's OK.
And that's when I felt like a journalist. I felt like a journalist then because I had essentially stood up to the people who would make me and had to bet on myself.
Like in that moment, I was like, no, I believe in me more than I think you believe in me, even though you're offering me what should be a journalist dream, right? A lot of people work to a certain point to be able to sell their show to have that sort of stability. Yeah.
Oh, I love that. And I relate with that with that so hard, because I think, you know, I went into this process, and we had originally sold the, you know, the first season of this show as a limited series.
And I fell out with that company before it launched, because we got the, you know, tiniest legal pushback from my sister that I told everyone was coming. And, you know, this whole fight.
And in some of those communications, and then I have a reasonably dedicated Carter of people that hate me. And, you know, one thing they always like to say is,

oh, you're not an expert. And you're not a this and you're not a that.
And I was like, well,

actually, you know, I am. And there's more than one way to become an expert.
And when the top

experts in your in the entire field consider you an expert, that's good enough for me. And

Thank you. Like, well, actually, you know, I am.
And there's more than one way to become an expert. And when the top experts in the entire field consider you an expert, that's good enough for me.
And it's sort of like you realize you're like, oh, well, none of these things are ever going to satisfy any of these people. Right.
It's like no matter what you do, how many, you know, how much research you do. You're not a professional critic either.
I mean, where's your credentials, brother? That's a really good response to that. You know what I'm like?, well, you know, I've written a book.
I did a keynote for Stanford School of Medicine's conference. I mean, where do you draw the line with expert? And then I think similarly as a journalist, and unfortunately, you know, some of the pushback I had on thinking of myself as a journalist, the call was kind of coming in from inside the house because that was my one of my original producers that I worked with.
But, you know, by the time I got to the Maya Kowalski case, which I was the only media outlet that was covering that in any kind of depth and actually reading through the thousands of pages of court documents and actually, you know, actually doing the work. I was like, well, yeah, I do deserve to call myself a journalist, you know, and I think it but it did.
It came from those challenges. And I was like, you know, we need to reframe what we think of a journalist.
And now that's to say, like, not every TikTok creator, not every podcaster, you know, is doing journalism. Well, not every Fox News host is a journalist either.
And they're on a technically a news program. Julie Agnew at the New York Times, who I really appreciate, once said, journalism is not a profession, it's an act.
If you are doing acts of journalism, you are a journalist. And that was really validating to me.
And one of the first people to call me a journalist was Taylor Lorenz. Because in the beginning, when I started to get any kind of hate online, I just reached out to her and she was like, you're a journalist.
You're a journalist. You're not like a, don't be scared.
What would a journalist do? That's what you should do. And I thought that was really validating because, of course, she's somebody I really looked up to, too.
And Katie Fang has called me a journalist. And I love her.
And she means a lot to me. But it never came from any of the accolades or the jobs that I got.
It came from eventually, you know, one day I was chef and one day I was a journalist. And it was that day when I was like some little, you know, something inside me was like, I'm not going to let people talk down to me.
Because up till then, it wasn't just that they didn't think of me as a journalist, it's that they thought of me as other or less. And we go out of their way to come up with terms that were othering like newsfluencer, news communicator, TikToker, hack, fraud, plagiarizer, news aggregator, you name it.
And I was like, okay, if I had a newsletter though, y'all be shitting your pants for me. Y'all be going nuts.
But because my platform is TikTok, you don't want it to be serious. And so we've come a long way from that and we haven't.
I have a fellowship right now at the Harvard School of Media, and it's a journalism fellowship, and it's a very prestigious one. The first day I was at my fellowship, Stanford was talking to my management because they wanted me to come and do a talk there.
And they were like, we'll be billing V as a news influencer, though. And my management was like, V is really super sensitive to that term and we are not using that term.

So no.

And they went back and there were two teachers at Stanford that refused to, no matter how

much evidence we gave them, even telling them I was at Harvard for my journalism fellowship.

They were like, no, they're not a journalist.

And so I was like, we'll get fucked then, Stanford.

I don't know what to tell you.

You know what I mean? So there's still haters out there. There's still haters out there.
There will always be haters out there. Well, and I, my perception on that is that that's coming from a fear of if these credentials are not exactly the same as they were for me, then what does that mean about my work? And it's very interesting for me interfacing with some people who are, you know, a generation older than me in the field of child abuse or, you know, academics and have a lot of a lot of master's degrees, a lot of PhDs running around and me with my bachelor of arts and creative writing, you know, I'm actually on the whole, I'm really encouraged about how open a lot of those folks are that have dedicated their life to this because they recognize the need for new strategies, new ideas.
And then there are those, you know, thankfully fewer people for whom the idea of someone like me is threatening. threatening.
Well, I think that's certainly true in academia and politics in many ways,

because they're like, well, if you could just be a journalist, then what does it matter if somebody has a degree in journalism from the Columbia School? That used to be the thing that set you apart. Now, I have a relationship with Bob Woodward, obviously a journalist, like probably one of the titans and icons of this modern generation.
I was at the New York Times Deal Book Summit, and we were putting a little group together because they wanted to put definitively legacy journalists with a new journalist to see how things were different, how they were the same. And Bob Woodward and Leslie Stahl were in my group, and me and Ben from Semaphore were in the group as well.
Bob Woodward, afterwards, he was like, I'm just so fascinated by you. I'm just so interested in you.
And I was like, that's really validating. Thank you.
And he was like, I'd love to invite you to my home to have breakfast and talk. And I'd love to just like stay in touch.
So we like text. And by we, I mean me and his assistant Claire, who relays it to him because he doesn't text.
But I went to his house for breakfast with his wife and we sat, we talked about media and he said, what's something that you're facing that you don't know how to handle? And I was like, at that point, this was two years ago. I was like, I don't know, am I a journalist? Am I not? And he was like, well, let me ask you this.
When was I a journalist? In your mind, was it when I got hired at the Washington Post? Was it when I published the Watergate papers? Was it when I won my first Pulitzer? Was it when I became the executive director at the Washington Post? Was it when I took my first mentor? Was it when I won my second Pulitzer Prize? When did I become a journalist to you? And I was like, I guess, I don't know. I guess always, I think you were always.
And he's like, okay, because I got fired from the Washington Post twice before I ended up getting the Watergate gig. And I didn't go to J school.
I was in the Navy. And he's like, I came out of the Navy and was like, well, I guess I'll use my GI bill to go to school.
And then I dropped out of school. And then I just liked the idea of creeping around on the president.
And that's how I got started. People thought me and Bernstein were like assholes.
They didn't think we were serious. He's like, the only reason this worked out and we became icons is because we had a hunch and it worked out.
That's it. He's like, but we also had to be a risk taker.
He's like, and I think the world you're in right now, you're taking a risk. He's like, and I didn't learn to risk take in J school because I didn't go.
I didn't learn to storytell in J school because I didn't go. He's like, I was in the Navy.
I knew about people. I knew about stories.
And I knew that I wanted to creep around on the president. And, you know, so that's the origin story of an icon.
And I was a journalist then. And that really like stuck with me.
And I really appreciated that story. That's really beautiful.
And I've heard you tell some version of that before or kind of reference Bob Ward's background as an analogous point. And I appreciate it.
And I think, yeah, like an insatiable desire to creep around on some person or topic is definitely a really strong entry point into journalism. Why is journalism always seen as this like high academic art? You're creeping on people.
Yeah it's like you're a weirdo. And you're creeping around like a weirdo.
You're a lurker. I'm a gossip.
You're a gossip. You spend years creeping in people's emails and court documents and following them and going through their trash.
It's actually fucking weird. It's a weird profession.
It is weird. They want to make it feel like, ooh, no, it's this be all end all.
And it's like, no, man. And I think if you don't have the weirdo, you know, a producer that I'm working with on this upcoming season, Taj Easton, his take on this is manic curiosity.
And I was like, oh my God, I love that so much. I have to credit him with that.
But I was like, yes. I was like, if you don't get that feeling when you're covering something, especially if it is risky, right? Especially if it is, you are going to have to take some measure of risk to report on it.
It's like, if you don't have that feeling of like, ooh, I want to do all the FOIAs and I want to read like everything, like, because I want to look for every like piece in the thousand piece puzzle as we're putting this together. And even though the stuff that I am reporting on, obviously by its nature is extremely grim and it is difficult, but like the process is something that I really enjoy and can get into.
And I think to the point of like the question of what makes you a journalist is that you're a weirdo. I think we've nailed it.
You're a weirdo and you're willing to do a brave act of truth telling or of storytelling in some way. And that's, yeah, that's what I like about it.
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And remember that shopping with our sponsors is a great way to support the show. You know what else I'll say, and I've talked about this quite often, they'll be like, what was your early journalism influence? And I don't have one.
It was my mom, who I consider the original citizen journalist. She worked the night shift as a nurse.
And she used to sit around with her girlfriends and drink coffee and listen to the police scanner. And we would like sit down and riveted, listen to my mother's notes about what they heard and what they talked about and the pieces they put together about things they heard on the police scanner.
And that was citizen journalism at its finest. My mom also, not a very patient woman.
And anything that we ever had to tell her or do, she was like, don't add to it. Don't take away from it.
Just give it to me straight. And if we did something bad, but we could get to her first, she'd ride or die for us.
So I got used to telling the truth quickly and fairly through the way that I was raised. And I think that that permeates into my content.
But I'm also a gossip. I'm a third generation gossip.
And so much of gossip is news. But people, you know, are like, no, that's how girls talk.
And it's less than and it's like, no, no, no, you don't understand. When my sister was dating different guys, I'd be like, hey, can you find out about this dude? 20 minutes later, they've got like his birth certificate and time he was born, like in everything he's ever done in his life.
Like we women are investigators in general. Yeah.
I mean, here on my show and in my world, we put some respect on the girls' gaze in these because that is the core of true crime, number one. And number two, I think those folks are more inclined to understand where telling stories and telling stories about people, you know, you know, we do all original reporting on the show for the most part.
And like, a lot of it is right, like people telling us about their personal experiences. And it can very much and very directly on our show, like functions as a safety mechanism.
The whole kind of ethos of the show is if we talk about this issue, more people will know kids will be safer. And if talk about the specifics, if we name the people we're talking about, that's been the biggest risk I have taken as a journalist and making this show that other companies did not want to get on board with.
And I understand because they watch their bottom lines and, you know, just like you not wanting to sell to NBC, didn't want anyone else telling me how to do this job. And I've been really lucky that I've gotten to keep the show independent because I was like, oh, just there's no that early experience with, you know, with the original company.
It really made me realize I was like, okay, there is no other way to do what I'm trying to do here except independently. No, because people are coming to you because they trust you, right? Like, I'm here because I like you.
Like, I don't do interviews and stuff. Like, I don't usually talk about myself.
Like, I'll do them sometimes, but not really, not for nearly how many I get asked. But especially when you're talking about something sensitive, you have to be able to do it in a soft whisper, right? And that's not always the way that news goes, right? So when folks want to talk to me about something too, it's oftentimes we'll just get talking and they don't even realize that they're newsworthy yet.
I'm telling people so often, people need to know about that, or that's really important, or I'm really glad you trusted me with that. And they're like, really? And I'm like, this is, Yeah, what you've just told me is very important.
And they don't even know it yet, that what they're saying is newsworthy. So I think that's really interesting, too.
Yeah. And you know, it's funny, because first of all, thank you for saying that.
And thank you. Thank you for doing this interview with me.
This is really such a treat. And it's, it's a very full circle moment for me, because I we originally met when I was, I did did an interview with you that never aired because of all of the reasons that I've talked about.
Because of the original. Yes.
I was with a different podcast network at that time. And they wouldn't air it because they were too afraid.
I had several interviews with that original network not air because the final editor would listen to it and go, oh, too risky. Oh, it's going to bum your audience out.
Oh, it's not in line with the idea of the interesting, such a happy show. And, you know, I had to deal with that.
And that's what it was. And I have great respect for the women who own that production company.
I had a very difficult time with the particular producer that I had. I want to make clear, nothing against that network.
Sometimes you have a producer who makes bad decisions for you, or on behalf of you. And then, you know, your stuff doesn't get where it needs to be.
Well, and I'll say V, like, I give some grace to, especially in those early days, like I've noticed, you know, and I've got, I've gone on sort of increasingly large podcasts other than my own, including, you know, including Armchair Expert and stuff like that, where I've talked about all of this stuff.

And it was surprising to me that nobody's sort of legal team, that these legal teams

kind of relaxed.

But I think it was because I'd gone first and I'd gotten to a lot of people.

And then that sort of created a different, you know, a different sort of ecosystem for

it to go into.

And it's like a part of being in this game and the business side is that you have to

be comfortable with like, if you're doing an interview with someone else, has to go through their legal team and their standards and their what risks they're willing to take. And you kind of have to always be okay with that.
But tell me first, because so many times, especially with you and with in particular, other ones I could think of, like we interviewed one woman who we were talking about her brother being falsely incarcerated. And this is a person that I'm really, really close friends with.
And she was deeply vulnerable with me. And then they were like, now we're going to can it because we don't want to get involved in an active case.
I was like, why wouldn't you say that before this person trusted me to do this story? And now I have to go back and say, oh, they cut it for legal reasons. When I'm bringing you a guest, you should, if you're going to cut it or have the power to cut, you should say, hey, that's not a fit for what we're doing right now, because legally, we think we might get into some territory we don't want to get into.
Then I wouldn't have brought them in, shared that trauma bond experience, and then been like, actually, we're going to silence you after you trusted me to help you tell your story. So that's what I don't like about some of the stuff they do over there.
Not over there. I mean, over there in the trad media world.

Yeah, yeah, stuff that can happen. And I mean, I, you know, again, like that, I had already been through that experience with my own show.
And I want to talk about like, I think actually, with legacy media, I think, I think a lot of people's trust in legacy media outlets is very shaken. And I think one of the things, certainly from my perspective, but I think this is probably shared by a lot of people that shakes it, is that it is necessarily tied to large commercial interests.
And it is a really different sort of trustworthiness equation. If you're talking about, you know, me, who's an independent podcaster, I'm the person,

if you want to trust what's going on on my show, you have to trust one person. And that's me.
If I want to trust what's going on with vSphere and what's going on in your sub stack, which is excellent. Everyone should subscribe to it.
Thank you. On Under the Desk News, I have to trust you, v- Spear, right? And I don't have to worry about what corporate interests, what billionaire that owns that outlet, you know, is leaning on the scales.
And I think we saw this in a really, you know, in some kind of like, shocking ways, even with, you know, like Washington Post and, you know, that like really sort of were very disorienting for me as a person who does, you know, who does have some faith in those outlets and understands that for the most part, those outlets are doing real journalism with real fact checking. And then you're just sort of like, wow, this is really like, I think we sort of think of those places as trustworthy because they're big and robust, but then actually those things can turn out to be weaknesses.
Well, trust in institutions is down astronomically. And taking the Washington Post example as the example, right? Because when I worked there, it was great.
I called it like the Disneyland of newspapers because I was at the LA Times and I had a bad experience. Like start to finish, it was not good at all.
And that was because the billionaire owner over there was involved in the daily operations already. So what good there was of the LA Times with like Kevin Merida or Kimbrielle Kelly, who was the DC bureau chief, who are amazing, respected, thoughtful, just genius people was already being destroyed by the billionaire owner by the time I was coming in.
Because I also watched the billionaire owner constantly slap down Kevin's progressive ideas or constantly slap down stories on the billionaire's buddies in DC with Kim Brielle until he eventually fired everybody over there. Then when I went to Washington Post, we have a desk that was completely dedicated to covering Amazon and Jeff Bezos.
And they were deeply critical. And we used to do TikToks about Amazon's strikes and different stuff.
And I remember asking Carmela, I'm like, don't we get in trouble? Doesn't he own this? Because I had that experience from LA Times. And she's like, no, Bezos doesn't care.
We run completely separate from that. Yes, this is one of the businesses in his profile, but largely he doesn't interfere at all.
And my sister worked for Whole Foods and she had a really good experience with Bezos buying Whole Foods. She ended up getting a salary raise, their insurance got a little better, her schedule got a little better.
So I was sort of in this place where I was like, oh, what I know about Jeff Bezos acquiring entities is that they're part of his overall portfolio, which is of course always to enrich Amazon, but he doesn't get involved in the details. And so I had a lot of respect for that.
And then I left, some time passed, and I don't know what changed in him, but he decided that he was going to be involved at the Washington Post. And I don't think that people lost respect in the Washington Post so much as they saw the Amazonification of the Post.
And that's what they don't trust. All of a sudden, he got super nitpicky about the Post and started to destroy them.
And then we see him more and more aligned with the right. And you're like, oh, and I think that's what people don't trust.
Yeah. And given how, you know, seismic these changes are in the media landscape, how can consumers evaluate what is a trustworthy news source and what isn't? And there's sort of like, I guess the question of like, I think no one news source is going to be a complete news source, right? In this day and age, we do not have, you know, the evening news, like we're never going back to that.
We're not going back to that sort of monoculture. But how can we evaluate whether a given news source or creator is trustworthy? I think it starts with yourself.
And I think you have to have a really strong sense of what is real in your own real life, whether that means reading books and articles, understanding history and government structure. You got to have that down before you can get into the next thing.
I also think that

propaganda is rampant, the advent of like AI, even though we look at it and go, that's a silly

picture of Donald Trump with muscles on a tank that we know isn't real. There are people on the right who have seen it enough that it is built into his persona, even though it's not him exactly.
And we did nothing to fight that because we were like, whatever, that's fake, but it's real to them in some ways. I think when it comes to finding a good news source, it is difficult because you're not going to find any news source that's independent, that's big enough to do everything.
And it does come down to looking at a bunch of things and then using yourself as the filter, which is harder than it's been in the past when it comes to news. And when the media is in chaos, nobody can make a decision that is rational because nobody makes rational decisions when we're in chaos.
and that you need to just stick to frontline services like C-SPAN, I watch it with my own eyes, right?

Or find folks, I guess like me, who watch it with their own eyes and tell you, hey, here's what happened today. I think the Associated Press and Reuters, of course, are always going to be the least biased when it comes to frontline information.
And then taking all news with a grain of salt and realizing that you can't care about everything. So I think when it comes to people looking for what they could do with news or activism, what actually matters to you? What's happening in your local community when you walk out your door? What's one little thing you could do or that you really, really care about that you could see your efforts mattering and stick to that? Because we're not going to be able to do it all.
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Hi, this is Javon, your Blinds.com design consultant. Oh, wow.
A real person. Yep.
I'm here to help with everything from selecting the perfect window treatments to... Well, I've got a complicated project.
No problem. I can even help schedule a professional measuring install we can also send your samples fast and free i just might have to do more whatever you need so the first room we're looking at is for shop blinds.com now and save up to 45 site-wide blinds.com rules and restrictions may apply well the one thing i really wanted to make sure to ask you about is, because this is one of my favorite YouTube videos that you did, was about the difference between misinformation and disinformation.
Because we deal with a lot of both on this show. And this is like the way that you frame this is something I think about constantly.
So can you walk us through this?

Yes.

So misinformation is like, I just made a mistake, right? I thought I understood something and I said it and I was misinformed or I made a mistake and that information is largely innocently presented. And I could come back and tell you, oh, you know what? I made a mistake there.
I'm going to make a correction. Disinformation is the intentional manipulation and bordering on, we could say, lying to people about something or taking something and knowingly, or by instituting a ton of bias, twisting it to mean something else.
So misinformation, it happens a lot. Doesn't mean you don't trust that person ever again, or they were trying to deceive you.
They made a mistake. Disinformation, which is something that's becoming, I think, increasingly more popular, is an intentional attempt to deceive you.
And I think those are important things to remember because sometimes somebody will get something wrong and they'll be like, well, you're a liar now. And I'm like, no, no, no.
I was misinformed. We're here to fix it.
I made a mistake. And you want those to be rare, of course.
That's why we double check things before we post them so we don't accidentally misinform people. But disinformation is right up there with, you know, I hate to say propaganda because there's propaganda that's good too.
I love propaganda. I love the propaganda art.
Sometimes it can really just get people to do things that they're supposed to too. But it can get people to do bad stuff.
But disinformation are things that are intended to cause harm or manipulate people's reality on purpose. Yeah.
And I think for what we talk about on this show, I think about a lot. And even when I do interviews or in some of the coverage of the book or something, there'll be statements where I'm like, well, that's like not quite the correct way to define Munchausen by proxy, or like there'll be some kind of like small piece of misinformation or like an old study or something like that.
And that's like the sort of benign version of it. And it still can be a problem, right? Because a lot of people are potentially getting the wrong idea about something.
But it's very separate and distinct as you know, as you explain, like, from something like Mike Hixenbach's work and the medical kidnapping pieces where I can see the architecture of how they put this together because I do know so many of the facts in several of these cases where I'm like, ah, I've got it. You have a very – there is such a deliberate way they put it together.
You know, so I think when you can see the architecture of how it's put together and what it's trying to accomplish, like, to me, that is a signal that that is disinformation. And we share a sort of unkillable hope and optimism with those people, I think, where, like, initially, I really went.
And because, I mean, my whole origin story is really watching the media get, A, this topic wrong, but then really watching that cross over into my actual sister and her case being covered by the media in this way that was so harmful. And watching them use these horribly exploitative pictures of her daughter in medical contraptions over and over again.
And just thinking like,

these media outlets are contributing to the abuse. They're not just covering.
Well, sure. It's trauma porn.

It's trauma porn.

Exactly. But you know what? It makes people, if their goal is not to inform you,

it's to create a salacious entertainment experience. So you watch the whole show and

all of their ads, right? Oftentimes, not all media, but sometimes when we're watching a true crime television show or something, the goal isn't to inform you on the facts of the case. The goal can be to create a salacious experience that oftentimes is driven by increasingly more graphic and exploitative photos.
Right. So there's a lot of coverage of Munchausen by proxy, even if it's sort of straightforward coverage that is getting the facts right, that uses these photos.
And I think that's a whole problematic thing. But, you know, and then in the medical kidnapping stories, they're getting those photos from the parent who, you know, in my sister's case is the abuser.
And they're using those photos to co-sign that abuser's version of reality. And it's so damaging.

And I think – and because that parent isn't concerned about exploiting their child, they're not putting any barriers on the kind of images that they'll share. I think originally I went in and it's just like – this really seems impossibly naive even a few years ago.
But I went in and I was like, oh, these outlets, you know, Mike Hickson Bog, Taylor Mifendreski from the local journalist here who covered it with him. They just don't know.
They don't know the truth. I'll tell them the truth and then they won't do it.
I'll be like, this doctor that you guys are slamming saved my niece's life. Like, I'm telling you, I'm a family member.
I've been around this, you know, my whole life. And they have ignored it.
They've ignored no matter how much evidence I was like, oh, it doesn't matter if I how many different ways or like which framing I use to point out to them that they've gotten this wrong. No, because the goal isn't to get it right.
The goal is to have the best piece of media at the end. And so they're making decisions based on media, not based on truth or media consumption, right? Not, not media accuracy, not doing those other parts of the job that and yeah, you know, this journalist, Mike Hixenbach has done a lot of these pieces.
So he's very well known to my community. And you know, I remember Detective Mike Weber, who's my co author in the book, I was just pointing out like, yeah, he just money, like the answer is just money.
The answer is just this gets clicks. And I was like, surely it can't be that.
And I'm just like, okay, sometimes it really is. Sometimes people's motivations are really that basic.
It's that. I've taken full on podcast down.
I've taken whole segments out because another thing with, you know, if we went misinformation is truly the fact that sometimes people just don't remember it, right? But they didn't do it on accident. Your brain does different things, especially when I'm interviewing somebody who's experienced like a great trauma or something that they don't want to face.
Sometimes they'll say something because they have a habit of trying to shut down conversation about that thing because it's hurtful to them. And I understand that firsthand because when in 2015, my brother died and it was under very weird, like they just called us and we're like, your brother died.
And I was like, okay. And then we didn't know how he died for nine weeks.
And I remember I was in the grocery store with my mom and not the grocery store, Staples. See, it just happened.
I was in the Staples with my mom and this woman was like, hey, I heard your son died. How did he die? And she went, he was shot.
He wasn't shot, but it shut it down. She didn't want to have the conversation.
And then the lady was like, oh, that's so sad. And she was like, yep, and then moved on.
And I was like, mom, why are you telling people stuff that's not true? She's like, I need them to get out of my face. And so she wasn't lying.
It was just like a survival mechanism. And then when it came out later that it was an accidental overdose, he had like a potentially fentanyl poisoning.
We don't actually still to this day know it's quite difficult. But people were like, well, why did you tell me he died on his motorcycle? And she's like, I just wanted you to fuck up and get out of my face.
And to say, well, we don't know invokes another round of questions. And so when people have come on my show and they've said things like the story one particular way, and then they'll hear it back and they're like, actually, when I heard it back, I think I might've misremembered because when I heard myself say it, I was like, no, it didn't happen like that.
It happened like this. And I'm like, I'll take it out.
It cost me money to take it out, but I'll take it out. It was a mistake.
But I think that's, I don't know that this guy or that Trad Media has the intimate relationship

with their audience and their subjects for their KPI to be authenticity and trust like

ours is and over like making a program that's going to be like somehow evergreen and I'm

never going to update.

Like I always update it.

Yeah, us too.

And I mean, we try and be, because all of what we do really is trauma-in informed journalism when we're talking to people about their first person experiences, and it can be extremely tricky. And I really relate so much with that, that story about your mom, because there was a long period of time, where, and even honestly, sometimes still, you know, where somebody asked me if I have any siblings.
Sometimes I'm just like, no. You know what, Andrea, can we talk about that? Because we're in this place.
And I think it's so important. And it's something when PJ died, there was no book on how to deal with sibling death.
You don't expect that your peer, your contemporary will die or will betray you the way that your sister has in many ways, or be this person you don't know anymore, or that doesn't exist, the person that you knew doesn't exist anymore. And I struggled so hard with it.
And that's like one of the first questions people will ask you, right, is, oh, what's your name? What do you do for work? Do you have any siblings? And I would always say I have a brother and a sister. And I sometimes I don't anymore.
Sometimes I say I have a sister and she has a daughter. And it is this constant thing where sometimes it feels safer or easier or I don't have the mental capacity or the emotional capacity to tell the story.
So it feels safer to tell a little white lie. Yeah.
And I think like that really is like that's this type of lie that we should be extremely give a lot of people give people a lot of grace for. But it is a form of misinformation.
And that's why I said there's a difference between miss and dis. There's, you know, misinformation by omission.
If you really needed to know how many siblings I had, I had two, right? But I don't anymore. So you know, how important is this to the overall story? But when people oftentimes want to get to know why I experienced the world the way that I do, there is me before my brother died, which is a very different person than the person that I am now.
And the person I am now is friends with the person I was before. But we feel bad for her.
And she doesn't exist in many ways. When people want to know my process now, then yes, it is important for me to say that I had this experience that awakened me in a way that is so unusual that you couldn't get at J school.
You can't get this with 40 years of the industry. You get this understanding of people and stories and emotions by having your brother die mysteriously.
That's how I got this. And so sometimes that's hard.
Yeah. But it's true.
Yeah. I mean, I thank you

so much for sharing all of that. And that is, I feel like such a deep, like bonding point between

the two of us. And yeah, I mean, I feel the same way about my younger self right now.
This is

almost we're coming up on 14 years since this happened. And I, I look back on my younger self

and I'm like, love her, barely know her anymore. I love her, leave her alone.
Don't tell her, don't go back and tell her how it all works out. Well, and when I got married, you have a chemical and a personal change in you when you experience something as traumatic as what we have.
And it's hard, there's no guide, right? I met my wife five years after my brother passed away. And when we got married, there was a question of whose last name we were going to take.
I was very eager to take her last name because then me and my maiden name, I could let that girl go. I didn't have to see that name every day.
And when I married her and I took her name, well, Vitus is my name, but Spear as the last name, I remember feeling like I got a second chance at life because I wasn't carrying, my maiden name was Carol. I wasn't carrying Carol with me.
I didn't see it all the time. I didn't have to see the name of that girl that I knew that had a brother and all of the things that happened to her and all of the pain that she carried.
She got to rest and I got to be Vita Spear now. And that was really powerful.
So I think for some people, if you're going through that, something like changing your name, moving your apartment, painting the walls of your house, things like that changed so much for me to be able to have this second chance and now look where we are. Vita's Carol could not be who Vita Spear is.
It's a different thing, you know?

Yeah, I love that. And, you know, you wouldn't think that my entire career becoming about this thing would be how I got distance from it.
But strangely enough, it has been because I think like the more that like it has turned out to be that I could make what was very triggering something that I could feel some control over. And I mean, when I look back at sort of this period between when this happened and when I started talking about it publicly, which really sort of started five years ago, I mean, there was

a time when I couldn't be around kids, period, sick kids or otherwise. I just couldn't be around little kids without just losing it.
Freaking out. Like when you lose a sibling in whatever way you lose them or you just have this huge thing that comes and splits your life into that you did not ask for and you did not cause, you feel so profoundly helpless that finding a way to be of help to other people has just turned out to be the best thing that could have ever happened to me.
I do know. Because when that happens to you, you feel like your grief is so unique that no one in the world could ever possibly experience it.
You wouldn't wish it on anybody else. But then there is a certain kind of thing where you start to realize that the grief that you felt, while it was unique to you because it was the most horrible thing that ever happened in your life, is not uncommon.
And thereby, there are other people on the road with you. You're not alone.
The fact that you're not alone sort of makes you feel like you can endure it, you can handle it, because there's other people on the road here. And I remember my friend Ricky said to me, I'm going to hold your hand through this.
And I didn't know what that meant at the time. But I have now said to other people, I'm going to hold your hand through this, because it's just like, you don't know what the fuck you're doing.
I'm only just a little bit ahead of you. But at least I can help you get to the next step in whatever this journey will be.
But it's definitely a weird way to start a career I would say but it's worked out it's just where I can't imagine sort of being anywhere else and I have to tell you I had this really profound moment because before this I was a novelist and that's what I thought I was going to do with my life I thought I was going to write my cute little novels and just like boopop. And, you know, and like, I have sort of lived some version of that life, but then it was interrupted by this other life that I guess I got instead.
And I remember thinking, because I worked in book publishing, you know, from when I was 22 to my late 20s. And I like really, you know, gave me a very front row seat to developing this fantasy of being like a, you know, published author and stuff.
And I was like, I was a publicist. I got to go on these media things and I got to go in like the town car and like watch these authors and like go, you know, every once in a while we go to do something fun, like go to a morning show.
And yeah, take the author and they'd get their glam and you just look at them and be like, oh, it's going to be me someday. And then, you know, a few weeks ago I was in New York and I was going to the Tamron Hall show, which was super fun.
And, you know, got to go with Mike and got in the town car and did the glam and the whole thing. And I just had this moment where I was like thinking about my younger self, as I kind of always do when I when I'm in New York.
And I was just like, okay, I was like, tell her she gets there. Don't tell her how.
Yeah, that is a profound and exactly that thing.

Because she gets there. Don't tell her how.
Yeah, that is a profound and exactly that thing. Because she won't do it if she knows how.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I think, you know, I think we should just sit with that for a second. And I was thinking about other people.
I know that, like, my friend A.B. became a lawyer because their brother was wrongfully incarcerated.
There's a lot of folks who get into their career because they want to be the justice that wasn't there for them. Or they say like, be the friend you didn't have as a kid or the safe adult you didn't have as a kid.
And really proud of us for being that. But you're exactly right.
Tell her she gets there, but don't tell her how. And you know something I really wanted to make sure that we talked about, V.
Because, you know, I was really thinking about you when I was down in Texas after uh the book came out because I you know and this has been a really profound part of this experience that I did not see coming um when I started making this show is that it has been an opportunity for me to really talk to so many different types of people and people in different places than I would normally go and go to these really like rural towns where I do, you know, a lot of my field reporting and spend time in just places I wouldn't necessarily normally go and really have this like deep and profound, you know, moment of like bonding and shared experience with people who have really different life experiences than me and really different politics than me. And that has been such a gift.
And we have a lot of conservative listeners of the show. Sure.
And when I was in Texas, you know, obviously, so that room was probably more, you know, and, and I, I, somebody had asked, you know, about Mike and I being kind of an unlikely pair, right? As I'm a liberal mom from, you know, artsy-fartsy type, like from Seattle. And Mike is a bachelor cop, you know, who's like, as I would say, less liberal, right? Like pretty conservative.
And, you know, doing this work, I am constantly reminded that we do have more in common than we are often led to believe. And I was like, there are many people who are invested right now in turning us against each other.
Don't fall for it. Don't turn on your neighbor, like resist that.
And like, I'm realizing I'm saying that to a group of people that like doesn't agree with my personal politics. And I pointed to, you know, Sheriff Bill Weyburn and his family who were there, which was so meaningful to me.
And I was like, listen, you know, like I found people like people like the Weyburns who like I love and admire and we have so much mutual respect and understanding. And like, they don't agree with my politics any more than I agree with theirs.
And they like had the trust in me to tell their daughter's story. And like that was so meaningful.
And it's like, I say that while also having very strong feelings about what's happening. Politics is not my beat on the show, but it is very funny to me when people get on to be apolitical.
I'm like, I'm talking about- Everything is politics. Everything's politics.
And especially this, right? We're talking about child abuse, the criminal justice system, law enforcement. These things could not be more political.
Now, they do not break on where I'm like, I am a very left-leaning person. I don't think the left does a good job with this.
I don't think the right does a good job with it. I think they both do better or worse with it in different places for different reasons.
So it's not like a, you know, black and white thing. But it's certainly not apolitical.
But nonetheless, it's like I really value this show as a space to have a mixed audience, I guess. And like, I know that you also have a mixed audience.
I do. I have a big mixed audience, too.
I think because I'm willing to recognize that the whole thing is batshit bananas, right? And I think people are like, obviously, you feel the way you are. You're a gay woman, right? You have big feelings about the gays.
And other people are like, I like you, and I just don't think about that that much. What matters to me more is the price of eggs.
And then you'll hear people be like, well, now the eggs are $12. Well, they didn't know that when they voted, right? Like nobody could have known that.
Here's the thing that I think is interesting about politics is that at the heart of it, many of us face to face, I live in the most Republican district in all of New York, which you would think is Long Island, but it's not. It's Greece, New York.
And we bought the house there. I didn't know what anybody's politics were because we bought it in the winter and it was snowing.
So there was no yard signs or anything. There was no flags.
There was nothing because it's extremely windy and snowy. So I couldn't have known anything.
So we bought this beautiful house in this nice neighborhood that I really liked. And it was affordable.
It was clean, had good sidewalks. Saw a couple basketball hoops around.
I was like, must be a bunch of kids here. That's great.
And then come to find out it is the most Republican district in all of Greece. And I was so nervous.
And then we came out one day and we've met the neighbors and met their dogs. We know their dogs.
We know their kids. There was a basketball hoop at my house that we inherited.
One of the neighbor boys came over on Halloween and he was like, I've noticed that you don't use your basketball hoop. Would you mind giving it to me? And I was like, sure.
Sure. Right.
And now he plays with it. Everything's great.
Everybody's great. On my street, there is one little trans child that I love.
Okay. And it is mostly Republican people.
So this election season, it was wild. And the neighborhood sort of silently agreed to not put out signs because everybody knows what work I do.
And we all know about this kid on the street. And we all care about this kid on the street because they're our kid from our street.
Okay. They're our kids.
And so everybody kind of was like, all right, whatever. Well, a couple of people decided they were going to put up, vote no on Prop 1, protect girls sports, which of course we know that that is anti-trans rhetoric.
Put them out on their lawn. So I fucking go over there.
I'm like, why is the sign facing the house where the kid lives? And I'm like, why would you do that? Don't you think it's a lot it's facing right at their house? And they're like, they don't even play a sport. I was like, let me tell you what it's about.
They didn't know. They didn't know.
And I was like, see, but I could have been pissed, right? And I could have been crazy. And I could have said, oh, those people are assholes.
We're never going to talk to them again. They didn't know.
Somebody came to their house and said, hey, would you like to put a sign out supporting women's sports in the high school? And they were like, of course I do. They didn't know.
So then we talked about it. So sometimes I think some of the stuff that goes on with politics is quite simply the disinformation and misinformation that is put in certain ways, or these really sneaky things that bad people are doing where They're like, hey, would you like to support the high school sports? They don't think much about it.
You sort of just go about your day, you're not making a big deal about it. And I think that that divides us more than anything else.
That's a great example. And I think, you know, just to give people an example of like, kind of something that I've seen that comes from the left that is also sort of can be infected by me right it's not just we don't want to like just say oh yeah oh no I got a left one coming up too I would love to hear that it's like you know like I've seen with this like medical kidnapping beat right which is that's the big conspiracy theory that we are up against right you know I've seen like that there are reasons that people on the right are susceptible to it because it fits into like a parent's rights um which obviously on the extreme is very troubling and problematic so even people who are just more like geared that way can see it from from that standpoint of like more willing to create others yeah and then and then like on the left it really fits into this like oh the system disenfranchises parents right so and that's true this is just not an example of that.
And like, sometimes it really fits into this like, oh, the system disenfranchises parents, right? So and that's true. This is just not an example of that.
And like, sometimes it really is just people don't know. And it of course makes me think, oh, how many of these things am I like also doing that, right? Where I'm like, oh, something fits into my like thing that I care about.
I can't think about everything like that every minute of every day. Some stuff's going to slip by me.
I'll tell you a story about me personally. When I was a kid, young, 21, I got hired at Dolly Parton's theme park in Tennessee.
I grew up in Connecticut. I knew nothing about anything, okay? And I went down there, and there were a lot of Confederate flags everywhere, including on the venue, okay? Because it was 2005 but I worked there, 2006.
And they had Dolly Parton's Dixieland stampede and all this stuff. And they housed all of entertainment in trailers.
So we put an American flag and a Confederate flag out front of the trailer because we thought we were doing like a Tennessee thing. And one of the dancers came over and they were like, V, what the fuck are you doing? And I was like, I thought it was like a Southern thing.
I didn't learn about this in Connecticut. We didn't learn about this, that it was still like a representative hate thing.
There was no social media. I didn't know anything.
And they were like, no, it absolutely is a hate symbol. I was like, then why is it on like the venues and stuff? There's rebel flag everywhere.
And they're like, because Tennessee is hateful. Don't do that.
And I was like, so then I took it down. Right.
But I didn know. I made a mistake.
And I tell the story all the time because it was like, you would never believe that I would be that stupid. And I was that stupid until I obviously, and then I was like, of course.
Well, I thought it was just like, I thought I was being part of the culture. Oh, no.
The culture is where we are in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee. And the deep woods in this trailer park is not maybe super friendly.
This is maybe not what I think it is. But I'll tell you one about the left when I constantly say, I don't think we should give tax breaks to billionaires.
I don't trust billionaires. That's why I vote for the left.
And I want to be with a party that's closer to the working party and closer to the values that I espouse and whatever. How can I say all that when Nancy fucking Pelosi makes more money in the stock market than anybody? So I see it.
I get it. And I think that those are the tit for tat things that keep us separated.
But we actually agree on. I agree that billionaires shouldn't get tax breaks.
And I agree that Nancy Pelosi should retire and count deer off her deck or count money off her deck or whatever she wants to do. You know what I mean? She's not my girl.
Throwed money at deer at this point. But they get us all, yeah, they get us all worked up with each other.
And it really does come down to, like it did on my street, going over and be like, hey,

why would you do this?

And they just, you know, they didn't know.

And now, of course, there are people who do know, and they do it to be antagonizing. And I have said that there are some Republicans that have a humiliation kink.
Folks like Marjorie Taylor Greene, who want to get up there and show nude photos of the president's son because she gets some kind of rise out of it. And none of us want to be like that either, right? I know a lot of conservatives are very embarrassed by her too.
So it's like, we got to group up as people and not be like, well, if you ever voted for Trump, or if you identify as conservative, simply based on the circumstances that you live in, and you're looking at the things and going, I think this is what would benefit me and my community best. That doesn't mean that we should be like completely hateful all the time.
Because I bet in one conversation, like when they poll America, we would agree that gay marriage should be allowed, right? Only 20% of people in this country think that there shouldn't be gay marriage. So that means 80% of us think that it should be.
So that means that it's up to 80% of us to tell our legislators to knock it off with trying to chip away with gay marriage. Yeah, no, it's really true.
And I think it feels like we live in this time of just an absolute fever pitch for conspiracy theories. Oh, sure.

Yeah.

And. And I think it feels like we live in this time of just an absolute fever pitch for conspiracy theories.
Oh, sure. Yeah.
And one thing that I realize we have become equipped on in this show is that we are talking to people. And I am a person who is in recovery for experiencing gaslighting.
Right. And I mean like real gaslighting.
Someone is systematically making you doubt your version of reality. Someone has unsettled your ability to believe yourself and what you're experiencing.
And that takes a long time to get over and it's a hard thing to come out of. And we all in these situations of these cases we cover on the show go through some version of, oh, my God, for some period of time, I was bought into this.
I was bought into this thing. And it was a lie.
And I'm an idiot. I caused harm.
And I think when someone has the courage to come out of that. And not everyone does.

And it's because like when people are bought in, sometimes they just go deeper and deeper. And I think it's really important to, you know, keep an open door for someone to come out of it any time.
Like, I mean, I can't say it's never too late because obviously there is harm being done. But like, I just think it's really important to make it a safe space for people to come forward, even if they have been bought in for some period of time.
You know, we had in this last season, someone who'd been friends with the perpetrator for 10 years, and then listened to the podcast and realized, you know, and came out of it. And we had a really wonderful conversation about it.
Again, not being Pollyannish about it at all, but how do we create conditions where we can come back together being so divisive as it is right now? I think people need to know that it's okay to say they were wrong about one thing without worrying that people won't trust you about anything. It's okay.
It's okay. I do it all the time.
I just told you I put a Confederate flag outside my house one time, right? That was an obvious, very embarrassing, sick, twisted, weird, dumb mistake. But I did it.
I didn't know. And then I did know.
And now it's been 20 years, right? So I've been knowing. But that doesn't make people never trust me again, right? I've learned a lot of public lessons.
It makes me trust you more. The fact that you're able to have the humility to say and recognize that you were a human being who made a mistake about something, that makes me trust you more.
That makes me trust, oh, if we can take in new information and adjust their belief system accordingly, right? It's a strength. Well, and that's the thing is like, there's lots of stuff, but I think that's people's fear is they think that their relationship with people are so fragile and so precious because that's what they've been kind of told, that we're all like walking on eggshells and like nothing's real and people will turn on you and you'll be alone forever or you'll be othered, right? That's like the biggest thing that the right does and that religion can do is make you feel like you're either all in or you're all out.
This loyalty pledge, especially that Trump pushes this idea of a loyalty pledge. It's like being normalized across all of our relationships.
And the fact is like, you could just say that you used to think something and now you don't anymore. It doesn't mean you have to question everything you thought.
Just maybe one thing doesn't work out for you. Let's just take this as an obvious example because I'm seeing a lot of my right-wing friends and even my dad be like, no, that was wrong.
When Trump was running for president, was Elon Musk along for the ride? Sure. you know and will people over the last 30 days were like, for those of you who say no one voted for Elon, I did because he was with Trump the whole time and I knew Elon was going to be working on stuff.
Well, now Elon is kind of showing that he's an asshole, right? And he's not actually saving us all this money. We're able to prove that what he's doing, he's not an auditor.
He's not an operator. He's not a successful businessman.
So now folks like my dad, let's take, for example, are like, hey, I'm willing to admit I was wrong about that Elon guy. I mean, wow, what a weirdo.
Did you see him with the chainsaw? What the hell was that? That's one thing, okay? One thing at a time. Now, it doesn't mean that every other conservative thing about him is completely broken or whatever, but there are certain things that we can do that we could say, hey, I used to think this, whatever the case may be.
And now I think differently. I've had it with friends where I have a tendency to be friends with people who are mean to me.
I don't know why. I guess that's your kink, V.
That's my kink. I just have friends.
I think I'm just like really forgiving of the human condition in general that I like don't think that much about it. But when I was dating my wife, I would be like, this is my best friend.
And she'd be like, are you sure? They're kind of mean to you. And I was like, no, that's just how we play.
That's how we play. Because I had this escalated investment in staying friends with people that I met when I was 10.
And obviously, we're in different places in our lives. And the way you get teased at 10 is maybe not the way you behave as an adult at 40.
And maybe some of us matured more than others, but I didn't want to give it up. Right.
It was like, oh, no, that girl's actually kind of maybe she was never my friend. Maybe she was just in the friends group and she doesn't have to be anymore because we're adults and we all moved on.
And I could have a separate relationship with other people. I don't have to trash everything I knew just to eliminate the thing that hurts.
Yeah, I like that. And it's a really good example of like, you don't have to wholesale throw everything you believe in out the window to beat and we're just to even like draw a limit.
Well, so V just a couple of last questions. I'd love just some advice from you.
I know a lot of listeners love you. And like, how are you, like, are you okay? Like, how are you coping with all of this? Because I think most of us are feeling pretty over, many of us are feeling pretty overwhelmed by the news and you are facing it for your job, dealing with it every single day.
How do you get through it? And how do you kind of like, what kind of pieces of very hard and earned wisdom can you pass on to us about dealing with such an overwhelming news environment? A couple things. So again, to bring them up again, I woke up one day, went to work, had hot dogs and macaroni and cheese for lunch, was so excited that they were serving hot dogs, macaroni and cheese at lunch that I called my mom who answered the phone and said, your brother's dead.
So I have faced things because she had just found out, right?

So she was in shock.

I have faced things that have come from I was at such a high high to an astronomical low that I don't think I could be sucker punched by anything ever again, having gone through

that particular experience.

So for me, one superpower I have, which is how I can help hold people through this right now is is I don't get shocked by a lot. Nothing will ever reach that level.
So unfortunately for me, I have a superpower that allows me to not get sucker punched. No matter how bad it is, it will never be as bad as that.
So in some ways, I'm like, all right, well, and I grieve it and I have a problem with it. But I could face it in a way because I have seen death.
I have seen the end. I have seen the impossible manifest in front of my eyes and had to deal with it.
And so in some ways, when the impossible happens, I'm like, oh, it's impossible again. Hello, you bastard.
What do you got for me today? And I have like a little bit of resilience towards that. So I think that helps me with the way that I do the news.
There is this idea of this thing called a death eater. I don't know if you've ever heard of that.
Like back in the day, they used to like hire somebody to eat death, which didn't mean literally. It was like a spiritual thing where somebody would be grieving the death of somebody they loved, and they would hire a death eater who would break bread with the person and eat the bread, the alive person, and eat the bread.
And it was a symbolic moment of them eating the grief and taking it away with them to relieve that person. And I think in some ways, I'm a death eater in the way that I can take it, the death or whatever, and I can take it away and I can internalize it and I can give it back to you as something better.
And so that's how I approach the news, especially when it's bad, especially over the last 30 days. Let me take it in.
Let me digest it. And let me give it back to him like a baby bird, just nice and gentle and good.
In addition, I know that this country is full of good people. People are good in this country.
They are far greater than you could ever imagine. And our politics is far worse than you could ever imagine.
But our people are good people deep at the heart of them. They want to do good things.
They are hardwired for good. They are misguided, misinformed, disinformed, propagandized.
They've had their nervous system shaken to shit. So every time I do the news, I trust that I am talking to good people who want something good to happen.
And that goes for everybody that I have three and a half million listeners, right? And so I put that forward when I'm giving information and I don't try to be like, hey, you should do this to be a good person. I assume you're a good person and that you want to do the right thing and you want to hear the straight info.
In addition to that, I recognize that I can only do what I can do. And there are times when I just straight dick around, dilly dally and do nothing.
I am not a serious person all the time. I think people think I must be serious all the time.
I watch a lot of 90 Day Fiance. I play a lot of Luigi's Mansion, the dumb little game on the sidekick thing that I have.
I go on walks. I have dogs.
If I really feel bad, I go get a tattoo. I paint.
I create time for myself. I cook.
I hate cook. A lot of people cook with love.
I cook with rage. Okay.
And Natalie can tell if it's been a particularly bad news day. If we're having like gourmet shit, like if my Thomas Keller stuff is coming out, she's like, oh, how bad was it? And I'm like, it's Thomas Keller bad.
Okay. So then we're having beautiful things.
So I do stuff like that for myself. I talk shit with my girlfriends all the time.
I call my mom. I talk shit to her about whatever.
It doesn't even matter. I talk shit about stuff that happened in high school with my mom just to have something controllable to talk about.
All of that gives you a sense of control and release, makes it possible for you to go through the day. You don't got to be super serious.
And then when something happens that is bad, I believe it. They have told me that the Supreme Court case that will overturn gay marriage will come this June, and it will very likely be overturned.
So now that you've heard that, what do we do? Well, what is special about marriage? Love and the rights that come with it. Well, nothing's ever going to stop me from loving my wife.
I love her endlessly. No one can touch that.
What about the rights inherent to my marriage? Those are affected. So I worked with this lawyer, Angela Giampolo, and we put together this thing called Pride Plans.
And it's nine documents you do, and it recreates the 1,138 rights inherent to marriage. You just do these nine little papers, you know, and you could do 10 if you want to do a pet directive.
And I filed those paperwork. And now I have a partnership with my wife that will always and forever, no matter what happens, maintain the inherent rights to marriage.
So now if they overturned gay marriage in June, they didn't overturn my gay marriage. So I've done something that's tangible that could protect me from this thing that would be devastating, right? So when you can do something, do it.
And with certain other stuff, I sit with people. I grieve with them.
We fight back. We strategize.
And we recognize that it is never over, like when it comes to the fight for women's reproductive health. We hold the line on what we still have, and we fight for what we lost, right? But we hold the line on what we still have.
So you might be a person out there who's like, I'm just a line holder. I would love to just be the line holder.
Good. We need line holders.
I need somebody to go out there and be brave and fight for what we lost. Okay, great.
You're in the infantry of reproductive healthcare, but everybody gets to do what they want, and everybody gets to take breaks when they need. And I think that is the society that if we could build that together, then we could be okay.
And we could not just from this administration, but from the next and the one after and the one after. I would like to government-proof society so that we recognize that we are good people who care about having a good life and we could do that together.
I love that, V. And I believe that too.
And you said something in a recent episode of American Fever Dream, where you were talking about this period after your brother's death, where you were just really numb and just kind of out of your mind. And I, you know, really went through something similar in the wake of what happened with my family.
And then you had this really beautiful description of sort of realizing that the world was still there. And that, like, you know, the I can't remember what you said, but I'll tell you.
I was never a naturey person. And after PJ died, I, everything that I knew wasn't real anymore.
I wasn't good at cooking food. I wasn't good at talking to brides.
I wasn't I couldn't stand to plan events because I was like, fuck you for having something to celebrate when my life is terrible, right? I just couldn't do it. I just didn't, wasn't the same anymore.
And so I was like, I got to find something else to do because I have to like, I got to do something else because what I'm doing is not working. And so I signed up for this thing to go forest bathing, which is the most woo woo crazy thing you can think of.
And I went to this like camp in the backwoods of Virginia. And I sang to the frogs with this lady.
And we looked at the leaves. And I remember she taught me how to like, she's like, just stand here.
And I was like, okay. And then once I was standing, I was like, and now what? And she's like, no, you just stand here.
And then you just remember that things are here. Like, do you hear the river? And I didn't.
And then I did. And she's like, and do you see the leaves? Okay, now what about the texture on the leaves? Now what about the smell of the wood? And you just sort of like allow yourself to become entirely present.
And I was like, wow, this is incredible. It's all still here.
Because I thought when he died, you know, all the trees should shrivel up, the animals should genuflect like they did in The Lion King. I didn't think I should have to go to work.
I couldn't, his friends would call me and be like, shut up, you living bastard. I don't want to hear from you people.
Like I hated everything, right? So, but in finding this place, I was like, it's all still here. And then I could kind of be like, okay, what pieces of myself can I scrape together that are still here to like rebuild the new me? And I think that that was really powerful.
I also quit drinking then for a long period of time. And I think that that's something else that folks can consider.

I think sometimes we tend to be told, oh, the way to get over something is to, you know, eat your feelings or to have a glass of wine or you need to smoke something or you need to take this pill or you need to do that exercise class or you need to buy this, whatever the case may be. And the fact was when I decided to just be present is when I did my most healing.
And by drinking, I was actually complicating how long it was taking me to come out of my grief. And I never had a drinking problem per se, but I would have if I had kept on that path.
And so I think for folks out there, sometimes when we're struggling, hey, it's fun to do drugs. That's why people do them.
It's fun to get drunk and pass out and not worry about things. But you got to have a day where you say, I'm going to endure what it means to be present because I actually don't have to be afraid of being present.
You'll be okay. You'll find more peace in it than you do fear.
You just never did it before. So you'll be okay.
Yeah. And then, you know, you do get that gift of resilience that I think both you and I have experienced.
Well, V, I cannot thank you enough for being here. This has been such a joy.
It's been such a treat. I know.
What do I owe you? This was like a therapy session for me. I'm not, checks in the mail.
Only your friendship. And maybe an introduction to your mom, because she sounds amazing.
Oh, Maureen is, she's the best. She's crazy.
She's got a lot of like little advice points. I feel like she would like this show.
If she was a night shift nurse who listened to the police scanner, I'm like, Maureen, do I have a show for you? She absolutely would. She's got a a lot of them.
Things like you don't know these people shit. Anytime I would be worried about what somebody thought of me.
She's like, you don't know these people shit. What do you care about? Or nobody woke up and said they're gonna have fun for me today.
Take the party with you. She got a lot of them.
Maureen, what an icon. V, please tell us where can we find you? And what do you want people to do the most? Like if we're going to get like, what's the most helpful to you in maintaining this incredible independent media project that is you? So number one, like we addressed earlier in the show, I have an advertiser supported network because I want you guys to, I want to be accessible to as many people as possible.
If you follow me on YouTube, that's like, give me a hundred dollars cash. Okay.
And all you got to do is follow me, watch the content, enjoy it, learn, talk to people in the comments. That's phenomenal.
If you, if you've got a little money and you like reading stuff, you want to get some inspirational notes, we do things you like watching me live, sub stack, seven bucks a month, $70 for the year, very affordable or free. If you get my free one, you still get the lives and you still get, I think we do one newsletter a week that's free.
But if you can't support, that's the best place to support. Then you can, of course, find me on your Instagram and your TikTok and all that kind of stuff like that.
But Substack and YouTube, that's the way that I pay for everything else that I do. Amazing.
Amazing. Don't Venmo me.
Sometimes people Venmo me. Don't do that.
I appreciate it deeply, but use that money to buy the Substack because you'll get a much better experience and I want you to have something for it. And I personally subscribe to the Substack.
I love it. It's one of my, I really trimmed down my news media diet as we were heading into this year, which turned out to be a good choice.
And that was one that made my list, as well as your podcast, American Fever Dream with Sammy Sage. Oh, yes.
Find wherever you listen to podcasts. Yes.
Thank you for that. And with the Substack, we're going to start doing some more stuff.
Like, I get a lot of gift articles and things. We're going to start putting those in the notes.
I love the Substack. I think it's the greatest thing ever.
So you'll start seeing like more of the breaking news stuff in there and some guest posts pretty soon because we just tried out Substack, see how it goes, but it's going really great. So I think I'll make it like probably my main thing pretty soon.
All right. Thanks, C.
Thank you. Nobody Should Believe Me Case Files is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop.

Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett.

Administrative support from Nola Karmusch. Thank you.
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