Answering Your Season 4 Questions with Producer Myrriah

Speaker 1 True Story Media.

Speaker 1 Hello, I have exciting news. I am officially taking this show on the road next year.
I'm going to be doing a series of Nobody Should Believe Me live shows next March.

Speaker 1 I will be in Los Angeles on March 7th at the Regent Theater. I'll be in my hometown, Seattle, at the Triple Door on March 18th.
Then I'm headed to New York City for a show at Sony Hall on March 25th.

Speaker 1 And I'll be wrapping up in Chicago on March 26th at The Den. Tickets for all shows are on sale now.
You can find a link in the show notes or on our website.

Speaker 1 We're going to have special guests, meet and greets, and more at these shows. We're going to have a great time.
So go get your tickets now. Hope to see you out there.
Hey, it's Andrea.

Speaker 1 It's come to my attention that some of you have been served programmatic ads for ICE on my show.

Speaker 1 Now, podcasters don't get a lot of control over which individual ads play and for whom on our shows, but please know that we are trying everything we can to get rid of these by tightening our filters.

Speaker 1 And if you do continue to hear them, please do let us know. In the meantime, I want it to be known that I do not support ICE.
I am the daughter of an immigrant. I stand with immigrants.

Speaker 1 Immigrants make this country great.

Speaker 2 So I am here today with my fabulous producer, Mariah Gossett, first time on the mic.

Speaker 3 It's It's true. Yeah.
Well, you've technically heard me like in the background, I think, many car drives.

Speaker 2 That's true. That's true.
We have some ambient Raya audio from season four, but this is your first time

Speaker 2 officially here. So happy to have you.
And as you can see, if you happen to be watching this on video, we are here in the same place. IRL.

Speaker 2 It is so exciting.

Speaker 3 We are. Same time zone.

Speaker 4 What a treat.

Speaker 4 It is a treat.

Speaker 2 A few less things to coordinate.

Speaker 2 And we have been in Seattle for the last few days doing field reporting for season five.

Speaker 3 Is it going to be a doozy?

Speaker 2 It,

Speaker 3 you know. They all are.

Speaker 4 They all are.

Speaker 3 And I think it's like an appropriate adjective to use for these days.

Speaker 2 They are the dooziest of doozies.

Speaker 2 And I think every time I go into a new season, which now this is our fifth season, every time we sort of dive into a new case, I'm like, oh, this is the craziest one we've covered.

Speaker 2 And also, I think that the big, one of the biggest lessons from season four is that you truly never know what will happen when you go into a project like this. So, I wanted to have you on today.

Speaker 2 We're going to do a mailbag episode. So, we're going to talk about some of the feedback that we got from season four and answer some of y'all's burning questions.

Speaker 2 But before that, I just wanted to introduce you to our listeners officially and learn a little bit more about who you are and what you do.

Speaker 3 Yeah, so I'm a producer. I've been working in podcasting for the last like 10 years, which I'm very thankful for since it's still like an industry that

Speaker 3 I think is really still only like 20 ish years.

Speaker 2 Well, actually at Podcast Movement this year, they celebrated the 20th anniversary of the very first podcast going live. So that is, you've worked in podcasting for half the time

Speaker 2 that it's existed.

Speaker 4 So I feel very lucky to do that.

Speaker 3 Everything from very little indie shows to live storytelling shows is kind of where I started cutting my teeth.

Speaker 3 I did radio in college as an undergrad and made a bunch of weird, fun little stories because I went to art school and that's what you do in art school.

Speaker 3 And then afterwards, like a good millennial, I got my master's in production management, which means I love spreadsheets and timelines. And I think Andrea can attest to that.

Speaker 4 And I love that for us because I do not love spreadsheets or timelines.

Speaker 2 Like, I like a timeline, okay, but not a spreadsheet. You are

Speaker 2 just an absolute icon in terms of organization and have been so, so helpful keeping this very complicated to track show and production schedule and all of the various things that have been going on.

Speaker 3 Keeping the trains on time, if you will.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and then I've been really lucky to work on some really fun and incredible shows. I worked on a series called Fogo, Fear of Going Outside for Spotify Studios.
We did two seasons of that.

Speaker 3 It is a show that follows a comedian who learns about the outdoors, even though she hates it.

Speaker 3 It's a lot of fun and comedy, but it also has a lot of like deep history about like, why do outdoor spaces oftentimes not feel welcoming to people of color? And like,

Speaker 3 what is the actual history of hunting? Why do we have hunting licenses? Why do you have to pay to go camping?

Speaker 3 So, like, we, we kind of explore a lot of these like deep rabbit holes there, and you get to follow along.

Speaker 3 Ivy Lee, the host's journey, as she finds all that out. And so, I've done a lot of field reporting with that show, which was like incredible experiences from like

Speaker 3 being silent in this, in the freezing winter while trying to wait for a deer to show up to

Speaker 3 sweating while camping in July in central Texas. So all of the extremes, really.

Speaker 2 And I have to say, your

Speaker 2 outdoorsmanship came into play unexpectedly during this trip when we found ourselves in a situation of having to phone up a bat rescue because we found a very tiny, very adorable bat.

Speaker 3 Hanging out on a little dock.

Speaker 2 Yeah, at my parents' house.

Speaker 2 And Mariah was like, I got this. We'll give him a little water, let him hang out.

Speaker 3 We moved him into a tree, like the bat rescue said. And, you know,

Speaker 3 I hope he is living his happy little bat life. They're important little pollinators.
You know, you got to keep them around.

Speaker 2 And honestly, they're stinking cute.

Speaker 3 He was so cute. He was trying so hard to be so ferocious.

Speaker 4 I know. He was like,

Speaker 3 but he was so teeny tiny. We use gloves, don't worry.

Speaker 4 There was no emergency raby shots that happened. I can hear some people's blood pressure going up.
Just like that.

Speaker 3 Not necessary.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and then I've worked with Lemonada Media on shows called Being Trans and Being Golden, which were kind of like our foray into the unscripted reality space, but in podcast form, I worked as a segment producer on those shows and had a really incredible time working with that entire casting crew to take 600 hours of tape per season and whittle that down to

Speaker 3 entertaining six episode arcs, which was really fun and interesting to learn like that really intense craftsmanship of unscripted spaces from some of the best in the biz, the EPs on that show, Casey

Speaker 3 Barrett and Sally Laota are industry vets. Like they had spent like 20 years on the real world and like 11 years on the Kardashians and they had done series for like A ⁇ E.

Speaker 3 And so really got to see like, I think the bigger scale of what something like a show like that could look like.

Speaker 3 And then I've also worked on series for Wondery. I know y'all did

Speaker 3 Hysterical, which I got to be a a coordinating producer on, which was a really cool

Speaker 3 way to be a part of that process and see how that show was made.

Speaker 2 Yes, we did. Dr.
Becks and I have done a couple episodes on Patreon about Hysterical because there was a lot, a lot of interesting crossover themes.

Speaker 3 Yeah, totally. Some definitely, yeah, definitely a lot of things that I think crossover audience appeal for sure.

Speaker 2 Extended Nobody Should Believe Me University.

Speaker 4 Yes, very that.

Speaker 3 And then, yeah, Empire City, which just came out, is a co-production with Wondery and Crooked. I was also the coordinating producer on that show.

Speaker 3 And that is a deep dive into the full history of the NYPD. So starting back in like the 1800s and all the way through.
So a deep history show.

Speaker 2 And we talk a lot about also law enforcement and

Speaker 2 policing on the show as well.

Speaker 4 So many interesting things.

Speaker 3 Lots of overlap and interesting things. And then on the lighter side, I make a really silly comedy podcast called One of Us with Finn and Chris with Andrea has been a guest on.

Speaker 3 If you want to see a very different side of Andrea, if you're ready for ridiculousness, silliness, if you're like a comedy bang bang fan, if you like like big, silly improv comedy moments, then that is definitely a show that you would enjoy.

Speaker 3 But I'll say it's very absurdist comedy. So just be prepared.

Speaker 2 Truly the most fun I've ever had recording a podcast.

Speaker 4 It's a good time. I was a guest there.

Speaker 2 Very, very happy.

Speaker 3 We explored the freezer of the bear.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I had a blast.

Speaker 2 Well, yeah, so you obviously have an incredible resume. I wanted to just do a little like BTS on how you ended up joining the team here at Nobody Should Believe Me.

Speaker 2 Your hiring was a bit more precipitous than

Speaker 2 I had originally planned. I was talking to you sort of just with a loosey-goosey, like, oh, you know, future season.

Speaker 3 Sounded very casual. Yeah, I got like a...
a colleague of mine from Spotify reached out to me and said, hey, are you taking on work right now? And I was like, yeah, like I'm looking for projects.

Speaker 3 Let's see how the timeline works. And

Speaker 3 then I got an email from Andrea and it was like, then we scheduled a Zoom. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Then we had like a nice Zoom chat. And I was like, you know, I listened to like some of your other work over the weekend.
I binged being trans. I absolutely love it.
I highly, highly recommend that.

Speaker 2 Very like moving, funny, informative, very sort of human.

Speaker 3 Human-centered, yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. So really loved your work on that.

Speaker 2 And obviously, you know, with Joe being trans and, you know, in this season, I was definitely looking for sort of help with that, with understanding that lens and really, really doing all of that justice.

Speaker 2 And just, you know, was very impressed with your work as a documentary style producer. Also listened to Fogo, also loved that.

Speaker 2 And then my next message to you was, hey, can you come to Minnesota with me in five days?

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And I remember I walked out to my spouse and I was like, okay, I either just got a job offer or I'm being flown out to get murdered.

Speaker 2 yeah because you know you want to make sure to be working on a true crime podcast you don't want to be in one

Speaker 2 ideally yeah you don't want to end up in one so you did seem extremely chill about that request and you're like yeah i got my field kit like i'll be there but yeah i mean was that a little bit was it a little surprising i mean it was

Speaker 3 it was surprising but in the world of like documentary stuff i think it is that like sometimes you just have to get up and go there's like two there's like two like speeds speeds of documentary work where it's like the slowest molasses.

Speaker 3 Like, you're waiting for people to respond to you. You're waiting for sources to be able to talk to you.
You're like waiting for approvals from people to give you money to make the thing,

Speaker 3 which is most of the waiting process of anything in the documentary space. And then there is that, like, we have an opportunity and we have to go.

Speaker 3 So, it kind of reminded me, like, on season two of Fogo, we had tried to, that series was all about hunting, and we had gone out hunting multiple times.

Speaker 3 But unfortunately, I mean, fortunately for animals and like, you know, trigger warning, we're talking about, I'll talk a moment about animal death, but

Speaker 3 the host had never been able to actually like make the choice if she was going to fire or not fire on an animal.

Speaker 3 And I felt like as a producer, you can't make a whole series about hunting and not have the key element of like, do you actually kill an animal? not happen. And so we had gone out twice.

Speaker 3 It had never like an animal just didn't show up, which is very typical for hunting. If anyone hunts, you know, that happens a lot.

Speaker 3 And then we got a call from someone we had spoken to way early in the season who happened to have been a

Speaker 3 contestant on Naked and Afraid.

Speaker 3 And it now works as like an expert guide, takes people out for like elk, like multiple week elk hunting trips. Like this really, like going out hunting with him should have cost us like.

Speaker 3 thousands and thousands of dollars. And he was just like, I'm really into making this happen for y'all.
It's the last weekend of deer season in Oklahoma. Do you want to come?

Speaker 3 And he called us on a Tuesday and said, can you come on Saturday?

Speaker 3 And we'll go hunting saturday morning and we said bet and so we packed up the car flew our story editor out from los angeles picked her up like we started we drove up on friday we picked up the story editor at the airport in dallas on friday finished the drive to oklahoma went to bed at like midnight got up at 3 a.m and went hunting that next morning wow so again like i was like yeah shocking but also not yeah yeah also kind of harp for the course yeah and i mean i think it's been

Speaker 2 you know uh just a a sort of little glimpse into the overall behind the scenes of this show, you know, I spent years making the first two seasons.

Speaker 2 And that's sort of more typical for this sort of format.

Speaker 3 Usually, yeah, it takes me like a year to make most shows. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
And so it, because, you know, you have to do like all kinds of things. You got to do public records requests.
You got to track down sources.

Speaker 2 You've got to, you know, and so we, you know, we spent all this time making the first two seasons. And then the show really took off in the second season.

Speaker 2 And so then that enabled like there should be a production yeah a budget to make more seasons so that wasn't you know we weren't in that position right sort of uh waiting around for like is funding going to come in or not um but then it's like you sort of have to figure out how to now make this show and sort of keep it on the air and you know it's really like just sort of behind the scenes on podcasting uh taking huge breaks the way a show like serial does or you know some of these other is is not limited series are really expensive to make and very hard to profit off of exactly yeah um Which means you you all should listen to limited series multiple times and really drive up those numbers and add revenue.

Speaker 4 Yeah, and share them, rate them.

Speaker 3 And share them, rate them, all those things. Because yeah, it does take a lot of time and a lot of money.

Speaker 3 And you hope that the stories are, I think almost anything I've had the opportunity to work on, I've been so lucky that I think the stories are so important and I'm so glad that they get. to be made.

Speaker 3 And it's like, you know, I talk to other creators in the space and you, it's like people will tell you something they've been working on for years and you're just like, how is this not out yet?

Speaker 3 And it's just because it's like the the magic of hitting the space at the right time and the right place where people are going to listen to it and people are hungry for that content and like the gatekeepers of the content are willing to like

Speaker 3 give you the yes because they do cost money to make and so you know i'm i'm so lucky to work with you and on this show that has such a great fan base that are like continually listening and listening to all this other content because that means we can go out and do these deep dives and spend i can be here for a week in seattle and talking to people because a big part of this is building trust with people like trust in the people who want to tell you their side of the story, trust in like the

Speaker 3 sources you need to get things from, trust that you are not just mining people for their story to make quote-unquote content.

Speaker 3 Like I really appreciate that you always take the lens of like, we believe our victims and like we want to make sure their stories are told in a way that is sensitive and that is correct and that we're doing our best to like make sure the whole story is told.

Speaker 2 So yeah, absolutely. Well, I appreciate all that and appreciate you all because I truly would not be able to do this.
And this is now my full-time job.

Speaker 2 And like, it's, it, it is a, it's a big job and it's a complicated show to make.

Speaker 2 And I just feel like the luckiest person in the world that I'm able to do it and keep it independent because, uh, you know, as I've alluded to before, there was some real drama around this show in the beginning

Speaker 2 when I had originally sold it to a network and it became very clear very fast that that was not going to be a viable route to make the show the way that I wanted to make it.

Speaker 3 It can be difficult.

Speaker 3 And I think what was so special, particularly about like, if we want to jump into Joe's season, I think, you know, to have a survivor who's willing to tell you their complete story and also be like, and here's what it's like to just be a survivor as an adult.

Speaker 3 And to me, that was what was interesting to explore this season.

Speaker 3 And I'm glad you were open to like, like, and your listeners as well were open to go into that space because I think so often these stories, the, you hear the beginning, the middle, and then like, the, I figured it out.

Speaker 3 I was, I was unfortunately a victim of this abuse. Um, and then it's like, but then what happens, right? We very rarely get the, but then what happens?

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 And, and that was just like, I mean, this is, this was a really, this, this particular season of the show was, you know, they're all, they're all really important to me for their own reasons, but like, this was really important to me because,

Speaker 2 you know, the subject at the center of it, Joe, is someone that I care a lot about, that I'm really close with, and

Speaker 2 who is just like very important to the community.

Speaker 2 and um, and yeah, I think it's you know, what Joe has brought to the advocacy side, to the professional side, you know, with all this other sort of stuff that we do together with the APSAC committee that we're both on and the and Munchausen support, which we both do, uh, do some work with, um, is that there, there has never been this kind of visibility into Munchausen by proxy survivors.

Speaker 2 There has been so little,

Speaker 2 um, they have not been studied as a group. There, there's one study we talked to Kathy Ayub, Dr.

Speaker 2 Kathy Ayubu Ayubu from Harvard, who's a committee colleague who is working on a long-term study, but that data is not yet published. That's really the only one.

Speaker 2 There is one memoir about Munchausen by Proxy by Julie Gregory, but it came out about 20 years ago. So these are just stories that are not out there.

Speaker 2 And so this group of survivors that is really sort of coalesced around the committee and Munchausen support and the show. And Joe is really at the center of that is so important to understanding

Speaker 2 how to help survivors.

Speaker 2 And given that we know that most victims are unfortunately going to be raised by their perpetrator, like the likelihood of that child ending up in separated from their perpetrator permanently, regardless of the situation, is very, very low.

Speaker 2 And so it's really felt important, like in a really important piece of just the project of talking about this, this abuse on the show.

Speaker 3 100%. And I think like, you know, we were, Joe was so generous with their story and they, you know, obviously went through

Speaker 3 a really tumultuous time, especially at the end of the season and like with the with the death of their of their parent. And like,

Speaker 3 you know, it was

Speaker 3 it was tough for sure, but I was, I was always feeling so thankful that they were willing to talk about it and to talk so honestly about everything. And I think to illustrate, like,

Speaker 3 there is no like a singular direct path in the healing process. And I think that they are a really

Speaker 3 great, I don't know if great's the right word, but just like an example, I think, of how you can navigate that healing process and understand it's going to have like peaks and valleys throughout it, but still like be on the other side and the importance of community.

Speaker 3 And like,

Speaker 3 you know, I've been working on some other shows that just like, I don't know, the importance of community keeps coming up in a lot of different spaces right now.

Speaker 3 And I think it's something that I really appreciated that Joe had this really lovely inner circle of people who were like, of course, we'll talk to you about how we love and support Joe.

Speaker 3 And then like, also how that can also be hard, like as caretakers of people you love and like what that looks like.

Speaker 3 And the many mental health professionals that we talk to about what this kind of, you know, healing journey can look like and how it's going to be complicated no matter what.

Speaker 2 Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, and I mean, I'm so appreciative of Joe for doing this with us.

Speaker 2 And it is like doing the field reporting for the show is one of, easily one of my favorite parts of the show because it just is very special to like get to go and talk to people in person and sit down with them.

Speaker 2 And, you know, often we're in people's homes and we're driving around. I mean, it's really like.
it's really a special and beautiful part of the show, but it is extremely intense.

Speaker 2 And, you know, we had had two conversations conversations.

Speaker 3 And I was like, I'm on a plane. I'll stay at the hotel.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And, you know, and Joe came with us to Minnesota to go on this, to yeah, really like go,

Speaker 2 you know, back through their hometown. And it was, um, and it was just, I was so appreciative of you.
Like, I was like, okay, Mariah's amazing.

Speaker 2 Showed up with this full, like just popped out with your boom mic and your whole thing on. And I was like, we're like, we're in producer black, you know, just like ready to go.

Speaker 2 And, um, and I mean, that trip was incredible. Like, I think the biggest thing that stands out to me from that trip

Speaker 2 was getting to sit down with Crystal because, you know, I had been talking to, we had, we had recorded some of this audio previously with Joe.

Speaker 2 Like we did kind of a session because a lot of sit-down interviews. Yeah.
Yeah. And so we, you know, I'd known of this story for a long time.
I knew I wanted to do it for the show for a long time.

Speaker 2 It was originally supposed to be season three.

Speaker 2 And then the Kwalski thing came over and took over my life and a large portion of my brain for many months.

Speaker 2 And that's also like, that's something I've been learning on the fly is like the, oh, the sort of production schedules and when you're going to tell a story.

Speaker 2 It's just like, there's a lot of moving parts when you're talking about real people, people who are in dynamic situations.

Speaker 2 So we had been talking about this for a long time and Joe had expressed to me that they did not want to involve their sister because they had this sort of precarious

Speaker 2 imbalance and it was just complicated.

Speaker 2 And it's, you know, I always want to be super respectful of those boundaries that people have because that's, you know, even if something would be good audio for the show,

Speaker 2 these are people's real lives and real relationships that it's not worth,

Speaker 2 you know, and I just never, ever want someone to, if I can help it, to sort of put themselves in an uncomfortable position. And so Joe really decided,

Speaker 2 you know, Joe contacted Crystal while we were there and then said, oh, you know, and then so we we found out about that on the fly. And then that, that ended up being

Speaker 2 my favorite conversation that we had. Just so moving, so incredible.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 I remember we went over and we were like, hey, it can be like 20 minutes if you just want to talk. Like, we, and then I think we were there for like two hours.
Um,

Speaker 3 and yeah, I felt very, um,

Speaker 3 you know, uh,

Speaker 4 like

Speaker 3 I just appreciated their, their vulnerability in the moment and that they were willing to do that with strangers in the room.

Speaker 3 And, and we kind of talked about afterwards, I think there's this interesting thing when you are a person with a microphone, and it happens a lot, um, is that somehow then I think people then have the permission to talk, like no one's asked what is your story in like a way where someone's like, I'm just here to listen.

Speaker 3 I'm not here to judge the story. I'm not here to give you feedback on the story.
I'm not here to tell you how to solve the story. I'm just here to listen to the story.

Speaker 3 And so I think that is something that a lot of like documentarians and journalists, like we have to kind of sit with that, people are like willing to

Speaker 4 spill their guts. And like you,

Speaker 3 I try to be as much of like a welcoming space for that. But then it's also like a lot to process afterwards as well.
But,

Speaker 3 you know, I was so appreciative of how open and honest Crystal and Joe were in that in that time that we were with them.

Speaker 3 And that, you know, I think in some ways it's easier to be like, oh, I'm telling my version of the story to these people. And I don't have to like have family make a judgment call on it.

Speaker 3 And I think it really allowed. for both of them to really like open up to each other in a way that I think is strangely unique in this industry.

Speaker 2 100%. I mean, I, um, it's just a sort of sneak peek for season five.

Speaker 2 I mean, I ended up interviewing my parents, and which is not something that I, I ever, like, you know, when we were originally having conversations about me doing this show, that that was not on the table and that sort of, you know, evolved.

Speaker 2 And, um, and obviously, you know, I'm very close to my parents. I talk to them all the time.
We've talked about the situation many times.

Speaker 2 And this was different, like to just sit in a chair and be like, We're going to talk about this one thing for this amount of time, and we've both carved out this time for this.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, and really, just like, even for me, I think being in that

Speaker 2 position of being the interviewer instead of just being in the position of being their daughter and talking to them, it's sort of like it was really special for me, too.

Speaker 2 And I think that that is my favorite thing, one of my favorite things about making this show.

Speaker 2 And I think, um, you know, it was my first field reporting trip to Fort Worth when, you know, and for that, for that trip, we ended up, we were talking to a lot of men.

Speaker 2 And, you know, men love, love y'all, but like not always, don't always find it the easiest to sort of sit down and talk about a highly emotional situation. And, you know, never

Speaker 3 follow up with like, well, how did that make you feel?

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 2 You know, and then also like, you know, Texas, it's like it sort of these, you know, sort of more conservative, like, you know, just

Speaker 2 mainly men.

Speaker 3 Yeah, they have very set ideas of gender roles.

Speaker 2 Right, right. And

Speaker 2 so,

Speaker 2 you know, I sort of had this expectation. I was like, I don't know what these conversations are sort of going to be like.
And

Speaker 2 I was so amazed by how much people were willing to share. And also, just that was my, I mean, I was a total rookie at that point.
I'd never interviewed.

Speaker 2 I mean, this was like my first foray into interviewing people.

Speaker 2 I like to talk. I like to listen.
I like to talk to people, but this was, you know, it's a different deal. And I was just blown away by how vulnerable people were willing willing to be.

Speaker 2 And I was like, oh, this is really powerful because people are needing to talk about this so much. And so that's just felt like such a special part of this.

Speaker 2 And yeah, I was really, I really felt like, oh, this is,

Speaker 2 I think it felt really special, especially because it was Joe.

Speaker 2 And it was like, oh, you realize that like actually my always my hope when I'm coming into someone's life to do, to do this project with them is that we can leave things a bit better than we found them.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I think there's every reason to believe we did here, which is just a really good feeling. And I know a lot of you guys were moved.
That's one of the episodes that I heard the most about.

Speaker 2 That's one of the

Speaker 2 conversations that we got the most feedback on was Joe and Crystal and just how moved y'all were by that.

Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, same.
It's really hard to not just like openly weep in front of people sometimes.

Speaker 2 I cannot listen to that episode too without, yeah, and it's, it's, it's funny.

Speaker 2 I mean, I think that's also, that's a sort of, that's a sort of tool of the job, right, too, is that you are hearing these really emotional things.

Speaker 4 And, like, I mean, there's we react, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely sometimes for sure.

Speaker 3 But you're just like, just like, yeah, because I'm like, you're not here to manage my emotions.

Speaker 3 That's like, that's not what your job is.

Speaker 2 Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 2 Um, okay, so yeah, I mean, the one, uh, the one other part that I wanted to just cover before we get into some of these kind of comments and questions was just so obviously we had like the most massive curve ball, um, which was, you know, and I think I thought kind of going into this season, I was like, well, like this will be intense because it's intense material, but we're on a healing journey.

Speaker 3 And like, you know, Joe's going to wrap up with a really lovely final few episodes about how we can change systems lifting, you know, and

Speaker 2 yeah, and like, you know, Joe, Joe is on the whole doing really well and have, you know,

Speaker 2 survivors obviously struggle with a lot of things. And Joe has made so much progress since I've known them.

Speaker 2 They're doing, you know, such great work and accomplishing so much with school and sort of all these major personal strides. So I was like, this is going to be uplifting.

Speaker 2 It's going to be, you know, and then Joe's mom died suddenly while we were making this show.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 like, we touched bass right away. And I was like, oh, this is a...
this is a plot twist. And I don't mean that in a way to be glib, but like a

Speaker 2 dynamic storytelling.

Speaker 3 Yeah, because because like, you know, when once we start getting into the editing process, we kind of know like the beginning, middle event of the series.

Speaker 3 You know, some things might shift and move, you know, of like, oh, I think this, this will be stronger if we put this here and blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 3 But it's like, I, by the time we're at this point in the season, we're deep in editing. I'm like, I got a plan.
I know exactly where the series is ending. We have all of our audio.

Speaker 4 We have all our audio.

Speaker 3 Like everything is going to be,

Speaker 3 you know, hunky-dory in the post-production process. And then,

Speaker 3 yeah, and then that happened. And, you know, we, we,

Speaker 3 you know, obviously took emotional space to be there for Joe, because I think that's also a part of like when you are doing any documentary with vulnerable populations is like you let them lead like how this is going to go because it is their story.

Speaker 3 And so it was like giving them enough space to process and be like, you can send us whatever you want. You can send us nothing and we'll talk to you in a couple of weeks.

Speaker 3 And like figuring out what it looked like. if we needed to take a gap and finish the last thing, but you know, like we talked through kind of all of the scenarios and

Speaker 3 we figured out like essentially like a

Speaker 3 storytelling plan, if you will, of what we thought would be appropriate to finish out this.

Speaker 2 Yeah, because we obviously it is very,

Speaker 2 you know, and Joe was very candid and vulnerable about sharing this in those final couple of interviews with them.

Speaker 2 But it

Speaker 2 is complicated and was, and I really appreciated your guidance in this,

Speaker 2 having worked with some vulnerable folks before, especially, you know, in like in your work on being trans and um and having followed them for such a sort of long period lengthy period of time like things are bound to happen and um

Speaker 2 and yeah because i mean i i i was i didn't want joe to feel pressured to keep recording like if they just needed to go and deal with their grief like that was fine

Speaker 2 um so it was like there was sort of the production challenge and there was the emotional and and even ethical challenge right like i think you just don't ever want someone like it's really important to me that that we don't, insofar as we can, you know, help it like ever negatively affect someone's mental health.

Speaker 2 And, and there's also like, you know, there's, there's pieces of that that I can control and then there's pieces that I can't because it is public. We do have a large audience at this point.

Speaker 2 You don't know how people are going to respond. Like, there's just a lot of, it's a sort of a high wire act.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah. It's like you want to control the things you can control and hopefully offset any of the potential things that are outside of your control, right? Like how audiences react or how

Speaker 3 people interact with Joe on the internet, you know, like, and tell them that, like, hey, you can, you can talk to whoever you want to, you can talk to nobody.

Speaker 3 There's, there's no, there's no pressure from any of us.

Speaker 3 And, you know, then we went back to sort of the drawing table and we're like, okay, well, then who else do we really

Speaker 3 need to talk to? And like, we're like, okay, well, let's talk to someone who can talk about complex PTSD and grief.

Speaker 3 And like, that's where we got Carly Oster involved, who's a really great therapist in Texas. And,

Speaker 3 you know, we really kind of put out the call for additional information

Speaker 3 from like dr kathy ayoub and and her study and kind of talking about like

Speaker 3 what do these

Speaker 3 a little bit more of a bigger perspective i think on like the loss of the parent who is the perpetrator as well as like a little bit more of a a bigger view of like how these perpetrators ends of life look like and from that point on and and so it was like yeah just a bit of a different approach for the last half yeah and i loved talking to carly and i always um when i'm talking to experts i try not to turn it into a personal therapy session session

Speaker 4 but it's like yeah I think that is it's hard when they're personable and they're asking you questions I know and you're like well since we're here

Speaker 2 but yeah I found her to be so helpful and that was one of the things that again we got a lot of feedback we we got amazing positive feedback you know we're not gonna address that as much just because like it's not you know we don't just I'm not just gonna say

Speaker 2 read all of the you know all of the nice things that that people have said but um but that was one we heard a lot about was sort of um you know I think one of the one of the things about making this show you i do hear from a lot of people at this point who are specifically survivors of men chasing proxy or who've had a situation in their family um and those messages i am always so moved by those um and i just a note about messages um i it is difficult to keep up with them at this point um

Speaker 2 so always send them to the email that is the best place to get them actually through because that's the most it's just organizationally but anyway um so i love getting messages like that obviously that is a huge reason that i that i made this show.

Speaker 2 But we also hear from a lot of people who had

Speaker 2 narcissistic parents, who had sort of these other adjacent things where they see their experience so strongly reflected by the people that we're talking to and get so much out of these conversations that we have about like complex PTSD and complex grief and what it's like to sort of go through that process, because that is a really specific.

Speaker 2 and different experience than grieving a loving parent. So I thought that was just something that was really interesting to delve into.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.
It was, you know, like, yeah, I feel very lucky as a person who has a great relationship with their parents.

Speaker 3 And obviously, like, you've talked about like the day your parents go, it's going to, of course, be terrible and sad, but it's like, it's so much different when you're having to process, I think, these complex memories and situations and the abuse.

Speaker 3 And like, but then you also still like, like, still love this person because they were your caretaker. And so it's so complicated.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And I think that was really helpful for me to understand both from Carly and also just from talking so much through it with Joe, just getting that perspective.

Speaker 2 You know, that's not how everybody, like, no survivor is a monolith.

Speaker 2 And some people do feel just much more like anger, much more sort of like they, they don't feel an attachment to that, that adult in their, in their, to, to their adult parent, um, as an adult child.

Speaker 2 But that's not Joe's experience. And Joe, Joe's experience, I think, is, is also common.

Speaker 2 And I think that can be really hard to understand from the outside where you're like, well, this parent was so awful to you.

Speaker 2 You understand that this parent probably didn't feel an attachment to you or empathy for you.

Speaker 2 Like, how could you still love them? And it's like, well, because that attachment formed as a child and there's

Speaker 4 people that control that.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And so I think that was a really helpful perspective.

Speaker 2 For all of us, just for anybody who in your life who has a complicated relationship with your parent, or if you have a complicated relationship with your parent, sort of just really giving yourself some grace on like, totally, you know, feel, feel however you're going to feel.

Speaker 2 feel like it's all feelings are valid you don't need to

Speaker 3 you don't have to explain them to us yeah yeah yeah exactly

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Speaker 2 So I wanted to get into some of the, so yes, thank you for all the lovely comments. Lots of support for Joe.
Lots of just like lovely messages about Joe to Joe.

Speaker 2 And then so we had some, we had some other sort of,

Speaker 2 I wouldn't even necessarily frame them as complaints, but we had some feedback.

Speaker 3 Some feedback. And questions, yeah.

Speaker 2 Always the purpose of me addressing these things

Speaker 2 just to say, you know, when you put workout into the world, people get to feel however they want about it.

Speaker 2 You can hate it. You can love it.

Speaker 3 You can talk about things people hate that I make.

Speaker 2 You can talk to whomever you like, wherever you like about you. You know, you are not like,

Speaker 2 I, I don't read reviews other than to sort of garner these kind of feedback because I just am, you know, I got to protect my headspace. But you're, people are entitled to say whatever they want.

Speaker 2 But I think it's when I, when the ones that I like to respond to here are the ones that I think are sort of just helpful, helpful to sort of unpack the whys and sort of just give, give a view on our process.

Speaker 2 And if you still don't like it, you are entitled to do that.

Speaker 3 Yeah. I know.
Now I want to put like a whole section on like my website that's just like all of the like stuff people like the really wild stuff people comment on like work that I've made.

Speaker 2 Oh, just like hate for

Speaker 2 the hater section.

Speaker 3 Yeah, like the, yeah, I was like, I saw, I saw one this morning about the like history of, it's always, always obvious to me too, when people don't even bother to like listen to the series either.

Speaker 3 And those are the ones that usually I find actually funny. And like, you know, because there's, there's definitely valid, all art is valid and all art is

Speaker 3 subject to the viewer. And like everyone is artist objective, right?

Speaker 3 So people have their different opinions, but I saw one this morning about the history of police one that was just like leftist liberal garbage. And I was just like.

Speaker 3 Did you actually listen to it though?

Speaker 4 Like

Speaker 2 yeah, the comments I can get that I that I get that I can always tell people didn't listen to the show are either just like

Speaker 2 a lot of ones on the Kowalski case where they're like, what about the one photo in the in the movie where her feet are turned in?

Speaker 2 And I was like, we literally addressed that in so much detail with court testimony.

Speaker 4 I was like,

Speaker 2 I was like, I'm not going to put that in an Instagram comment because it's just not. Yeah, I mean,

Speaker 2 yeah. So I think, but, you know, again, like, that's people are, people can say what they like.

Speaker 2 So one of the things that I want to just briefly address,

Speaker 2 we did,

Speaker 2 and I know you had a lot of experience with unfortunate comments when you did the Being Trans series, which again, obviously from people who weren't listening to the show and probably are the people who needed to listen to that show the most, honestly.

Speaker 2 But we did get a couple of comments about most of ours were just sort of in the variety of people being irritated by pronouns. And all I have to say to that is.

Speaker 4 Grow up.

Speaker 2 It's 2024. Pronouns are not that complicated.

Speaker 3 If your kids know what skibbity toilet is, then like you could probably learn something like that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, like young people annoying you with their language is the oldest rite of passage there is.

Speaker 2 And I mean, I think like also just to say with that, like, um, you know, it's like we did have a lot of people misgender Joe and we sort of put the caveat there as we were talking to people who knew them when they were growing up and had.

Speaker 3 And we had a conversation with Joe because I was like, I will,

Speaker 3 I was like, I will literally edit out every time it happens if that is what would make you feel the best because it's like their story and their experience.

Speaker 3 And like, I don't want them to then have to re-listen to a bunch of people misgendering them. Right.

Speaker 3 But they said that they, you know, we had a conversation with them and they were like, these are all people who knew me from this time. And that was how I identified.

Speaker 3 And that is, and they were like, and you don't need to do that. And I was like, okay.
I was like, that's what I think is like

Speaker 3 so important when you are doing any documentary work with vulnerable populations is like you, it's just about the conversations with them and respect and like in approaching their stories with them in lockstep of how, not that they have control of how the story is like portrayed, like that's ultimately the job of the storytellers and the producers and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 3 But it's like, I'm not going to go out of my, like, I'd rather go out of my way to make sure that they feel seen and validated through the process than go out of my way to do the opposite of that.

Speaker 4 So, like, right.

Speaker 2 And you have to make choices all the way through anyway. So, yeah, that was a deliberate choice to let

Speaker 2 those in. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And almost everyone would also correct themselves multiple times.

Speaker 2 Sorry.

Speaker 4 So this is our thing.

Speaker 3 And so like at some point, it's like, we're just like, however it comes out is okay. Thank you.
And Joe was in the room for almost all of these too.

Speaker 3 And so they were able to have like a conversation with all these people. And so.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And that was, that was an interesting dynamic for this season. You know, this is the first time we've put someone else in the conversation chair

Speaker 2 other than me. And that was like, that was really interesting for me to then be just in the producer seat for a lot of that field reporting.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And so we let Joe, I mean, it's just like, it really is like, I encourage folks that are having a hard time maybe adapting to that, because obviously it is new, right?

Speaker 2 Like I didn't, I'm in my 40s. I didn't grow up with,

Speaker 2 I mean, like when I was younger, this, this is, this is a new thing. It is a newer thing in language that is becoming more

Speaker 2 widely used.

Speaker 3 Sure, in the language.

Speaker 4 I was like, it's the language not yet. It was just like trans people have existed from the beginning of time that there's been humanity.

Speaker 2 The acceptance of people having multiple ways to identify and using different pronouns that is that is a new newer conversation and so it's okay if your brain is having a little it's taking a little time to adapt but i would just encourage people to think of it as the same way that like you would respectfully pronounce anybody else like if someone's called robert and that's what they like to be called you don't call them bobby that would be weird and obnoxious so like that's it's like it's not different like if someone wants to use their honorific if they want to be called such and such esquire and that's important to them or like they want to be called doctor so-and-so or if they prefer not to be called doctor so and so you just like you respect that preference that's that's all it's about it doesn't need to be like

Speaker 2 I obviously it's been hotly politicized, but it really, really, really does not need to be. It's not helping anybody.

Speaker 3 Yeah. I was like, if you can learn your friend's new last name when they get married,

Speaker 3 it's kind of the same thing.

Speaker 3 To be honest,

Speaker 2 that's a really good analogy. And I actually

Speaker 4 forget. Right.

Speaker 3 Like, sometimes you forget, but you're never doing it in like a malicious intent, right? And I think it is about, you know, analyzing the impact over intent, you know yeah 100

Speaker 2 um

Speaker 2 okay so another piece of feedback that we got um

Speaker 2 was

Speaker 2 around how much detail of the specifically the medical abuse that joe endured we chose to share on this season and so we gave the broad outlines of course joe has done a previous interview with the show for season three where they did share a little bit more of those details but um you know we didn't we we were we didn't share a ton of detail about sort of every beat for beat piece of the medical abuse um and that isn't because we don't know those details.

Speaker 2 We have extensive documentation of that abuse. We have the medical records.
Obviously, Joe also previously did an interview with a national,

Speaker 3 you know, which I hope he will show critiques of the doctors. Very valid.
The critique of the doctors. But it's like, we, yes, we have all their medical records.

Speaker 3 We also spoke to their pediatrician, who was the one who initially flagged the abuse and like labeled it as such. And like, we included portions of that interview.
And I think, you know,

Speaker 3 I'm always so thankful that this isn't a show where I have to be like, and then the murderer slashed their throat.

Speaker 3 I've worked on those shows and it's not my cup of tea, but it's,

Speaker 3 you know, it's, it's, I think

Speaker 3 to me, it was essentially being like, well, we

Speaker 3 one, believe the victim and survivor. And then two, we do have all the documentation to back up their claims.
So we're not like loosey-goosey throwing this around. Right.

Speaker 2 I mean, I think, you know, it's always like there's, there's, and I'm also like, they talked, they, I was like, they talked about being medically abused.

Speaker 3 And I think that was like enough in the same way that if someone tells you they've been sexually assaulted, I don't want the beat for beat of what happened. No.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And I, yeah, to exact, to your exact point.
And I think, um, you know, I, first of all, yes, I'm, I'm inclined to believe survivors anyway.

Speaker 2 Obviously, when I'm sharing something on the show, I do have fact-checked.

Speaker 4 That documentation is fact-checked.

Speaker 2 And so like, like all of that did happen behind the scenes. And I think like, you know, number one,

Speaker 2 asking someone to relive all of those details can be re-traumatizing.

Speaker 2 And also like we, again, that is kind of not what we do on the show. We do share those details in cases, especially when we're talking through, you know, an investigation or like something like that.

Speaker 2 And part of that is for, you know, part of that is like a legal issue, right? We have to sort of say the thing.

Speaker 2 But I always want to like, you know, I don't want to do like a lot of the problem of how this issue is covered in the media is that when it is covered at all um it's either covered as oh this was a false accusation and again i've never seen a story that was covered in the media of a as of a false accusation that actually looked to me like a false accusation um so that's obviously problematic in its own right and the other way it's covered is just a laundry list of all of the procedures that child had the median coverage often includes photos of that child in vulnerable medical situations.

Speaker 2 And I just think like that is really troubling to me. And so for this one in particular, because we were talking a lot about this season,

Speaker 2 you know, a lot of the focus of this season was Joe's journey as an adult. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And putting the pieces back together, essentially.

Speaker 3 And Joe's kind of gone through the process of putting the medical pieces back together and they've done that process themselves. And,

Speaker 3 you know, A thing to me that meant the most to me was Joe re-listening to the season and essentially using it as a tool as part of their healing process.

Speaker 3 And I was like, like, well, if that's how this is being used potentially for survivors, then like, then we did it.

Speaker 3 You know, like if it's listening to someone be like, I went through all of these steps, here's all the steps that were still like a struggle, but then here's how we make it to the other side of it.

Speaker 3 And like, that was what was interesting to me, at least as a, as a storyteller, was like, I never hear what happens to these. folks after the fact.
Right.

Speaker 3 And so, and I think we've been, it's interesting. I think there's a new shift in a lot of documentary work to look at that.
I just saw there's a new,

Speaker 3 I think like Demi Lovato just put out a whole thing about being child stars and it's sitting down with all of them as adults and like, what are they, how are they processing it now?

Speaker 3 What does their life look like now? What were the repercussions of all the things they went through as children? And so I think it is.

Speaker 3 maybe a bit of a generational shift of just like a lot of the people who were unfortunately abused are now people who have these potential platforms to be able to tell their side of the story and like what has happened to them in the years since of like what are the repercussions of all these things that happened to me and so i think it's you know for joe's case in particular it's like we talked about them figuring out that they were a victim of munchausm by proxy we talked about some of the medical appointments we talked to a lot of their doctors like you said we had all the documentation and so we were like well i want to follow where you're going now and how are you putting your pieces back together and that is about like how do you reconcile with the family that is left that saw some of this happen how do you reconcile with the parent that wasn't around how do you how do you go back and thank the people who literally saved your life and like

Speaker 3 how do you then move through the system i think especially for joe who is in school for social work and like is interested in helping uh other survivors and is actively working in the space i think to them it is like how are we changing the systems and where did the systems fail?

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of that was,

Speaker 2 you know, again, following Joe's lead, right? Like, if Joe was at a different stage, which they, again, part of this is that they've done this already, right?

Speaker 2 Like, if we were, if we were following a survivor who had just had the moment of revelation and had just subpoenaed their medical records, then we probably would spend more time going through all of that beat for beat.

Speaker 2 But this, that period of Joe's life is, it is still a piece of the story, but it is, it's not worth going through that process.

Speaker 2 And it's like, you, I've, I've actually, this is something that I've learned myself this season. I did, um, I did a lot of interviews with other shows and I ended up

Speaker 2 telling my personal story

Speaker 2 many more times than ended up being helpful. And that's no fault of the people who interviewed me, but just because

Speaker 2 I realized that

Speaker 2 I realized that part of the reason I felt the need to share all the details every time someone asked me was because when people don't believe you for a long period of time, you feel like you have to sort of like pull out the entire like, no, look, I have like every, you know, sort of like horse beat of the story.

Speaker 2 And I was just like, oh, this is not actually helpful to my mental health to like,

Speaker 2 you know, tell the like, and here's the fake pregnancy and here's this moment and that moment and here's what she did. You know, and it's like, and I was like, oh, I need to just like stop doing this.

Speaker 2 And so I think it was also just being like, you know, if Joe wants to talk about that and that's helpful for where they're at.

Speaker 2 And, and if not, then we're not going to be like, but, you know, so what was the. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Cause to me, it's also about like, um, part of what I was so thankful they were willing to share is them essentially putting the pieces together of what do they actually need to process in like therapy figuring out what because of what they went through essentially how do they manage their medical like how do they manage going to the doctor now and like that whole process for them was like big and took a while and like that was i think a part of the story this season was them going from being someone who couldn't even take a Tylenol when they had a headache to like now they're getting treatment for the migraines that they they often get you know yeah yeah and and i'm i'm so glad joe did walk us through some of that because that is something that is really a very very i would say i'm not just common but like ubiquitous struggle for munchhausen by proxy survivors is trying to navigate their like you medical live in a body like you're gonna have to have medical care and it's so complex and there is like so much

Speaker 2 like self-doubt. They get doubt from providers.

Speaker 2 If they reveal their history to providers, there's often a great deal of judgment people often think they're engaging in munchausen behaviors when like they're they're just trying to figure out like yeah and and like the important thing which we always say on here right is like munchausen and munchausen by proxy behaviors are characterized by deliberate deception it's not being a hypochondriac and it's not being confused about the state of your medical like of like the state of your body because you were wired to think you were sick when you were not.

Speaker 2 Right. And like those behaviors can be misinterpreted, but like, you know, there is sometimes it's either like an extreme, you know, can sort of vacillate between

Speaker 2 a sort of like

Speaker 2 extreme fixation on something that's happening or just like a complete, like, don't go to the doctor for years at a time because there's so much anxiety around medical stuff because of course there is.

Speaker 2 And so I think that was such a helpful thing that Joe was able to illuminate for us. And I know I did hear from other survivors who said, like, oh, this is really like very validating to hear this.

Speaker 3 Because it's like, you are still living in a human body. And while, yes, the big bucket of things that your abuser told you was wrong with you are

Speaker 3 99% of the time is probably none of those things are actually wrong with you. But it's like you potentially do have things that come up.

Speaker 3 And also because of what you were abused with, it's like there's repercussions to all of that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, like there, there can be physical issues around that.

Speaker 2 I know many survivors that have you know i mean like especially in these extreme situations where people have you know like organs being removed i mean organs get into the current like yeah so many worse those or like all of the stuff around food has repercussions so it's like i just um

Speaker 2 you know if if you if you find yourself having some of those reactions then that is really important context to remember like the yeah remember the context um

Speaker 2 so uh the other thing that we heard a lot about from folks this season um that was a really interesting piece for me to explore.

Speaker 2 And I thought, you know,

Speaker 2 it was such fascinating conversations we had, both behind the scenes and on mic about this is

Speaker 2 the DID stuff.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, can you just talk a little bit about

Speaker 2 how we approached that piece of things?

Speaker 3 Yeah, well, of course, we listened to how Joe describes it. And like, they are in active mental health care.
They have a therapist. They have a team that works with them.
Yeah, they have several.

Speaker 3 They have several therapists. They have a whole team

Speaker 3 that's working with them on like, you know, working out a lot of things for them right now. And, you know, that team did, we talked to their therapist and then we talked to Joe.

Speaker 3 And then we were like, okay, well, we'll, and then we talked to Jade, who's the peer support specialist that Joe has been using for some resources and some help.

Speaker 3 And we, and Joe obviously is a person who knows a lot about the power of peer support when it comes to processing.

Speaker 3 processing things like this. And then we were like, okay, well, we also want to talk to some experts.
And so we reached out to, I got on a call with Dr.

Speaker 3 Sunny Lansdale, who came recommended to me by a friend who also works with other vulnerable populations and said that, you know, she was really incredible with her research and how she is really like patient focused and patient first in her therapy modalities.

Speaker 3 And so, you know, I thought that was really important to look at first because from what we heard from Jade and what we heard from, you know, Joe is that a lot of times there's a lot of folks in therapy spaces that don't always one, treat trans people.

Speaker 3 Unfortunately, treat trans people with respect.

Speaker 3 And that can be a really hard hill to climb, especially with folks who are at that PhD level, who maybe haven't taken the time to continue their education around different identities.

Speaker 3 And so Dr. Lansdale came highly recommended and she was great, but she is a busy, busy woman.

Speaker 2 She's like a researcher.

Speaker 3 She's running a practice. And so I got on the phone with her and just did some background interviews about like, how would you describe it? How do you diagnose it?

Speaker 3 And like, all of those sort of things. And she was super helpful.
And we, we did try to get her on interview, but unfortunately, we couldn't get schedules to work out.

Speaker 3 Maybe we can find another time to bring her in and have

Speaker 2 amazing

Speaker 4 off. Yeah.

Speaker 3 She's great. She's just, she's, you know, also a woman of

Speaker 3 an age who maybe emails are not her first form of communication. If you call her, she's great.

Speaker 4 She's like, I'm on it.

Speaker 3 I'll tell you whatever you want. I got 10 minutes and I'll take it.

Speaker 3 And so then,

Speaker 3 you know, I reached back out to some of my other mental mental health professionals, like Carly and like other folks and was like, who, and, and, um,

Speaker 3 uh, a person I've worked with, uh, who did like our sensitivity training for being trans. And so, like, people that I've trusted and have worked in this space before.

Speaker 3 Um, and they recommended Jackie, who was wonderful.

Speaker 2 And also loved Tara. That was also one of my favorite conversations of, yeah.

Speaker 3 And I think just held that lens well of like someone who's similar to Joe in that they are a person of color. They're also trans.

Speaker 3 They've gone through some abusive situations in in their life, and they're really open about that.

Speaker 3 And so they were able to, I think, provide that more like clinical lens that we wanted to make sure was included. But again, was fact-checked against what we had heard from Dr.
Lansdale.

Speaker 3 And so we felt good with the content that

Speaker 3 we shared.

Speaker 3 And I always think it's like interesting.

Speaker 3 Fortunately, unfortunately, I think fortunately, I'm really, I'm friends with a lot of therapists.

Speaker 2 That's why your vibes are so good, right?

Speaker 4 Just like

Speaker 4 my circle of friends are therapists.

Speaker 3 And so it was,

Speaker 3 you know, I got to kind of talk to them about, you know,

Speaker 3 there's interesting opinions about if like your therapist should tell you they're also queer, if they're also like these

Speaker 3 identifiers.

Speaker 3 And there's a much, there's like a big push, I think, in that school of modality in at least the school of modalities that my friends are working in about being honest about who you are because like your, your, your clients also and your patients want to know that you have a lens that's going to be understanding to what they're going through in their life.

Speaker 3 And so it's very, this like old school mentality to be like, I am this

Speaker 3 like, well, like if I'm a queer person, psychoanalysis sort of lens.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And like there are people that thrive in that space and that's great. Yeah.
And there's people who want that and that's great. And so I think there has to be like variety in how you're seeking 100%.

Speaker 2 And we wanted to, we wanted to pursue something that we wanted to present this in a lens that matched with Joe's lens and what what Joe felt comfortable and seen by.

Speaker 2 And that was really important to us.

Speaker 2 And also, you know, as we got into the RDID research, and I listened to some other like first-person accounts on other shows and Mental Health Happy Hour has a great, I'll link that in the show notes.

Speaker 2 They had a great like first-person account on there. And

Speaker 2 yeah, I mean, I think, or sorry, mental illness happy hour.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it was one of those things where it really reminded me of the space that we're in with Monty Housing by Proxy research and understanding, which is that like there hasn't been a lot of money, resources devoted to this.

Speaker 2 It's highly stigmatized. It's deeply misunderstood by most people.
And when you are in that kind of space, you have to be a lot more careful than if you're studying something like,

Speaker 2 I don't know, like general sort of depression or anxiety or something that's just like a lot more accepted, that has like a lot less sort of cultural taboo at this stage, not always true, but like these things are, they are evolving.

Speaker 2 And like, you,

Speaker 2 you know, it's, there are many many schools of thought on on them and that is some that is something that um

Speaker 2 you know

Speaker 2 bedevils the whole sort of like munchhausen by proxy conversation is that medicine including you know mental health medicine is an evolving science it is you want it to be and you want it to be obviously going to work yes we don't want it to stay like okay we decided this 50 years ago it's like everything around medicine and it's i mean especially mental health these conversations are extremely new if you go back one generation if you go back two generations the conversations about mental health look nothing like they do today i mean i yeah you know talking about like one of the other things which was interesting talking to joe's uh biological father raised and this sort of thinking about generational trauma right and how it got you're just like oh yeah like a lot of people who went through like war and extremely traumatic situations were just like and i'm never going to talk about it ever again and that's how we deal with it yeah it's like that's how my british side of the family dealt with it and like you know yeah it's it's so it's like we don't want to be stagnant in our conversations about mental health that's really important and so for us to talk to yes, both an extremely established PhD level, decades of, you know, research and experience, experienced person to sort of underscore this, and then someone who is much younger, who is newer to practicing, who does have that different lens.

Speaker 4 Who has all of their licensing and is all of their licensing went through all the school. Like,

Speaker 3 it's also, I think, you know, I try to think too of like,

Speaker 3 as much as you don't want to think about it, like this is also a platform. And someone like Dr.
Sunny Lansdale is like, I don't have time to like,

Speaker 3 you know, she luckily had time to talk to me on the phone for 10 minutes and fact check things with me and go over everything, which was lovely and I appreciate it.

Speaker 3 But also like, Jackie's like, I would love to show off my expertise.

Speaker 3 I am new in the field and I want to establish myself in this and like talk about it as an expert, both personally and professionally and like how that they approach these things. Absolutely.

Speaker 3 And so you're like, great, let's get this person who's young and wants to talk about it.

Speaker 2 Not that young has anything to do with it, but it's always nice to have, it's always nice to have people that are on the show that can in some way sort of, it's like a mutually beneficial because they're probably asking for their time.

Speaker 3 We're asking for their expertise like it's not a small thing and like yeah someone like jackie is probably like if someone reached out and was like i heard you on this show i would i'm looking for a therapist is someone who has the time and the space and their exactly on their plate to take on new people yeah

Speaker 2 we are lucky that we're able to get so many like you know established professional

Speaker 2 experts and yeah but it's not you know this isn't like with the munchausen by proxy stuff like all the people who've been doing it for decades are like personal connections.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 3 And I also think too, what was important to me in reaching out to Jackie was like, they, while they are like newer in the field, they had done all of their schooling recently.

Speaker 3 And so we were like, what are you learning now?

Speaker 2 It's the freshest sort of perspectives of, yeah. And obviously people who've been doing it for a long time do go through continuing education.

Speaker 2 It's interesting to see. Yeah.
It's sort of the like, where's this conversation now?

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 3 It's really important. And it seemed very connective.
Like everything, the way Jackie said it was almost the exact same way that Dr. Lansdale told it to me over the phone as well.

Speaker 3 And so I was like, okay, the research Dr.

Speaker 3 Lansdale is doing and is actively pursuing in her her work and research and as a therapist who lives in this community is making it to people like Jackie, who is a therapist in the same town and in the same community and is in the same like academic ecosystem.

Speaker 3 And so it's interesting, you know, I was like, oh, here's the, here's the through line, you know, of like how DID is being researched and then how is it being taught?

Speaker 3 And then how is it being implemented in practice? Right. And so that's like the three, I think, steps in my mind of how I fact checked it.
I was like, how are the academics talking about it?

Speaker 3 How is it being taught? And then how is it being implemented in practice? And so we were able to follow that the whole way through.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 And then talking to Jade similarly, I think it's like, you know, it's, it's great to have both, right? And that, that's, that's the approach of the show, really, all the way through, right?

Speaker 2 Is that we're talking to experts, we're giving you that grounding, and then we're also talking to people who have lived experience. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And providing peer support.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And that's, and that's a really important thing too.
And that's, that's, that's also like a valid piece of learning about something.

Speaker 2 Okay, well, thank you so much for being with us this season. You are also in the lead producer chair on season five, and we are working on that diligently behind the scenes.

Speaker 2 Anything else you want to say to folks? Where can they find you? Where can they find your other shows?

Speaker 4 Yeah. Pleathon.

Speaker 3 Plegathon. Yeah.
You can find me on the internet at MariaGosset on everything. I don't post very much.
I'm tagged and posted in all the things that I work on.

Speaker 3 So you'll see a slew of videos of very beautiful people who I make stuff for, but

Speaker 3 I'm not in those videos.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 yeah, you can find me there. I share anything that I'm working on on my social spaces.
And yeah, thanks for listening.

Speaker 2 Thanks for coming along for the ride.

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