Gov. Wes Moore Talks Trump, Democrats, DOGE — and Running in 2028?

Speaker 1 Do you work out with Pete's Hexeth?

Speaker 2 Because he likes to do it. Oh, no.
No. I don't think he wants to work out with me.

Speaker 1 I'd like to see a push-up contest.

Speaker 1 Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher.
My guest today is Governor Wes Moore of Maryland.

Speaker 1 Moore is a former combat veteran, investment banker, and nonprofit CEO who's charismatic and photogenic. And he has a great personal story.

Speaker 1 Moore was raised by a single mom, got in trouble with the law as a kid, and then became just the third black person ever elected governor in the United States.

Speaker 1 Not surprisingly, he's on the shortlist for potential Democratic candidates in 2028. And more than a few Republicans seem worried about him.
He is the name I hear from them more than anyone.

Speaker 1 And having recently spent some time with him, I can see why he's compelling, well-spoken just sharp as attack everything you want in a politician and uh he's also very funny people also i noticed over this dinner stare at him which is really interesting you don't see that a lot uh with politicians but he seems to be somewhat of a star.

Speaker 1 But of course, politics is complicated. Maryland has had to raise taxes and cut $2 billion in spending to close a $3 billion budget deficit.

Speaker 1 And with one out of 10 workers on the federal payroll, Maryland is particularly vulnerable to Doge cuts and the Trump administration.

Speaker 1 I'm excited to talk to him because I really do think new, fresh voices are needed in the Democratic Party, especially younger ones, and he's definitely at the top of that list.

Speaker 1 Our expert question today comes from another Democratic governor who is my favorite, honestly. Sorry, Wesmore and the rest of you, Maury Healy from Massachusetts.
So stick around.

Speaker 1 Support for On with Carrou Swisher comes from Saks Fifth Avenue. Sacks Fifth Avenue makes it easy to holiday your way, whether it's finding the right gift or the right outfit.

Speaker 1 Saks is where you can find everything from a lovely silk scarf from Saint-Laurent for your mother or a chic leather jacket from Prada to complete your cold weather wardrobe.

Speaker 1 And if you don't know where to start, Saks.com is customized to your personal style so you can save time shopping and spend more time just enjoying the holidays.

Speaker 1 Make shopping fun and easy this season and get gifts and inspiration to suit your holiday style at Saks Fifth Avenue.

Speaker 2 Oh, the car from Carvana's here.

Speaker 2 Well, will you look at that? It's exactly what I ordered. Like, precisely.
It would be crazy if there were any catches, but there aren't, right? Right. Because that's how car buying should be.

Speaker 2 With Carvana, you get the car you want. Choose delivery or pickup and a week to love it or return it.
Buy your car today with Carvana. Delivery or pickup fees may apply.

Speaker 2 Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our seven-day return policy at Carvana.com.
Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start?

Speaker 2 Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin, or what that clunking sound from your dryer is?

Speaker 2 With thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top-rated pros, see price estimates, and read reviews all on the app.
Download today.

Speaker 1 Governor Moore, thank you for coming on.

Speaker 2 Oh, it's my pleasure. I've been looking forward to this.

Speaker 1 I know. You were.
You said that.

Speaker 1 We were at a dinner the other night, and I don't know why you said that to me, to accept that you're charming. Because it's true.
Anyway, there's a lot to talk about.

Speaker 1 Let me start by getting you to set the scene. President Trump recently hit 100 days in office.
His approval ratings are cratering. His response was to call for pollsters to be investigated.

Speaker 1 So I'd love to know how you would assess where we stand today compared to what you envisioned when Trump was inaugurated.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, I mean, listen, I actually, I don't even need the poll numbers to know the kind of performance that he had because I'm in my neighborhoods every single day.

Speaker 2 You know, I'm going around my state and I'm seeing where we've had thousands of people laid off.

Speaker 2 And by the way, like, we're talking about people who do things like make sure that our food is safe.

Speaker 2 You know, make sure that we're not getting cyber attacks. Make sure that veterans are getting their PTSD medication and they're coming back home.

Speaker 2 So it's like, so I see the impacts of this administration every single day in my state.

Speaker 2 So I'm glad the poll numbers are now kind of keeping, are now giving quantitative evidence to what we are seeing every day in our neighborhoods is that, you know, Donald Trump, you know, was a, was a, was a vessel for the frustration, but he is not a vehicle for the solution.

Speaker 2 Because if anything, the only thing that has now happened since he has come on board is we have watched prices rise. We have watched economic opportunities compress.
We've watched our allies retreat.

Speaker 2 And we've watched people who had good, good, good jobs, good jobs that are now being challenged and being complicated because you have, you know, have an administration that's, that's leading by ideology and nothing, and nothing else.

Speaker 1 So I like that vessel. He practiced that one.
Vessel for frustration, but not vehicle for solution that works.

Speaker 2 That's right. Like, like, I get it.
You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 Like, I got it why people were like, oh man, you know, let's give Trump a shot because people are upset and they're pissed off and they should should be.

Speaker 2 Like, I mean, like, there is, there is, there is a whole lot about the system that was not worth defending because you cannot defend the indefensible.

Speaker 2 Like, people, like, I came up in a system that continued to

Speaker 2 remind me and my family how broken this system is.

Speaker 2 So, like, I get the frustration that people had, but, but I think people are just very quickly realizing that Donald Trump never had a plan nor an intent on actually fixing those issues.

Speaker 1 Let's go through some national news items because there's been so many. One thing you have to say about them, there's been lots of news.

Speaker 1 Kilmar Armando Obrego-Garcia had been living in Maryland for over 10 years before he was deported to El Salvador. You've said this is a case about due process.

Speaker 1 It's a case about are we going to follow the Constitution or not.

Speaker 1 But according to a recent YouGov survey, there are more Republicans who think the administration should not comply with the Supreme Court order to facilitate his receipts than there are those who think they should.

Speaker 1 If a large percent of Americans don't care about due process, and it's a difficult word, it's not an easy word. I think snatch them off the street without

Speaker 1 a judge is probably an easier way to put it, but that's the word. Due process is the word.

Speaker 1 Where does it leave us, though, if a lot of people feel that way?

Speaker 2 I think that the way you can really strip this down for folks is: do you believe that we should follow the law?

Speaker 2 Right? It's just basically that simple. Or do we believe in anarchy? Do we believe that everyone should just do their own thing and there are no consequences for being able to follow the law or not?

Speaker 2 This is not a question about Mr. Brigo Garcia's past.
It's not a question of what happened with him and his wife. It's not a question of any of those things.

Speaker 2 It's just simply, yes or no, do you believe that we have a rule of law that needs to be followed?

Speaker 2 Because what we're basically saying is what I'm saying that I believe in due process is he needs to be brought home and he should stay on trial and then let a judge decide what his fate is.

Speaker 2 And if a judge says he should be sent to another country, he should be whatever, whatever the judge files, we will follow that because that is basically the rule of law.

Speaker 1 Do you see that happening?

Speaker 2 No. And what does not make sense is Donald Trump unilaterally getting to say, he stays, he stays, he leaves, he leaves, she leaves, he stays.
Like, that's not the way this is supposed to work.

Speaker 1 Do you think he's coming back ever?

Speaker 2 We're going to keep on pushing for him to come back because I believe in the rule of law and I believe in due process.

Speaker 1 And you think you'll be successful? This guy's not letting him go unless Donald Trump tells him to.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I do. You do.
I do. Okay.
I do. I do.
Because

Speaker 2 I think that pressure and the will of the people does matter in all of this. I think that one thing that people will continue to realize is that,

Speaker 2 yes, is the president powerful? Absolutely. Is Washington powerful? Absolutely.
But right now, this is a moment where people are realizing that the president's powerful.

Speaker 2 They're also realizing so are states, so are governors, and so are the people. And so I do believe that the power and the will of the people, and by the way, the will of the courts.

Speaker 2 are going to end up winning this, winning the day.

Speaker 1 We'll see. I mean, ultimately, he wears people down, but Elon Musk, even though he's spending less time in Washington and government spending, has actually gone up since Trump took office.

Speaker 1 And it looks like most of his savings are non-savings and costs. He's incurred cost.

Speaker 1 Even if he leaves D.C. with egg on his face, Doge is still active and it's closed a lot of agencies.
It's created havoc everywhere. As you know, you have a lot of federal workers in Maryland.

Speaker 1 Both Maryland and Virginia have a lot of federal workers across different agencies. How do you put the impact of him on that?

Speaker 2 Well, you know, I mean, and there is no, there's no state who has more exposure to what's happening right now

Speaker 2 with this federal government, exactly, than with this Doge project of Elon Musk's Doge project than the state of Maryland.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 NIH in Maryland. Social Security is in Maryland.
We have over 260,000 federal employees in the state of Maryland. We have over 160,000 federal jobs that are housed within the state of Maryland.

Speaker 2 So what they are doing, these are not glancing blows at Maryland. These are direct hits at us.
These are direct shots that they are taking at my state and they're taking at my people.

Speaker 2 And so there is nobody who is experiencing this more than Maryland. No one is, no chief executive is experiencing more than me.

Speaker 2 And the thing I was very clear on from Jumpstreet is that I will, I get the relationship between state government and federal government. And I will work with anyone.

Speaker 2 but I will bow down to no one ever.

Speaker 2 And I do think it's important for people in this moment to say, you know, we understand what they are doing and how they are trying to undermine in many cases, not just democracy, but also legacies and livelihoods.

Speaker 2 But that does not mean that we just sit there and kowtow.

Speaker 1 So what do you do?

Speaker 1 I mean, these, this is real. I mean, even if they're ineffectual and performative and illegal, it's closing.

Speaker 1 I talk to people in my kid go so public school every day. He's like, I may have to move to the Midwest.

Speaker 1 A person who works for the agriculture department lives in D.C. in this case, but

Speaker 1 it still affects you. It is effective.
You are a soft target in that regard.

Speaker 2 It is,

Speaker 2 but no, we're not.

Speaker 2 And here's why. Because while people are understanding the power of the presidency, they're also now seeing the power of governors.
And I'll tell you a perfect example.

Speaker 2 So we have lost thousands of jobs in the state of Maryland because of these arbitrary and in some cases, illegal.

Speaker 2 firings that have taken place of our of our public servants who work for the federal government. But what did then we decide to do?

Speaker 2 Maryland has also been the most aggressive state in the country in being able to make sure that our federal workers are protected and actually streamlining our federal workers into occupations where there are available jobs within the state of Maryland, jobs in healthcare, jobs in education, and making sure we're reducing the red tape.

Speaker 2 So if you have a person who's qualified and interested, unlike get rid of the red tape, get them trained up, get them their certification, and get them in a classroom.

Speaker 1 How many fired federal employees have you become teachers so far? Or do you expect to become teachers?

Speaker 2 Oh, we know for a fact that with the portal that we've had opened up we've already had well over 2 000 entries into it so whether it's education whether it's health care whether it's also the private sector we're creating pathways into the private sector uh where you know for example i was talking with a tech ceo and a tech ceo said to me he's like listen if there's a person who has a phd and has a top secret clearance and is now unemployed i'd like to know their name because i'd like to bring them on and so we've just been very aggressively working with the private sector with the public sector, to make sure that our people are going to be okay.

Speaker 2 And frankly, having to get really thoughtful and aggressive when it comes to, you know, when it comes to making sure that we can weather this storm that we know has come on board, which is the Trump administration.

Speaker 1 Do you work with Governor Young of Virginia? I mean, obviously, that's the other besides the district, and I guess suppose Mayor Bowser of D.C.

Speaker 2 We have. I mean,

Speaker 2 I have a good relationship with both the mayor and the governor and a lot of my other governor and you know the governors from around the country, Democrats and Republicans,

Speaker 2 we do not have a joint

Speaker 2 agreement or arrangement with them, but I have a good relationship with these other governors.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you've smirked when you mentioned

Speaker 1 Governor Yunkin, just so you know, why the smirk?

Speaker 2 Oh, you know, I mean, well, listen, I mean, he's a Republican governor.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but also, it's more than that. We're competitors, right? I mean, like, you know, it's not even just Republican.

Speaker 2 Like, I actually don't get into the whole Democrat-Republican thing because that's not my background.

Speaker 1 I don't come from that but he's a competitor and i don't like losing so yeah so yeah none of you won bowser won the uh won the won all the all the sports stuff so sorry so sorry oh well that's a whole nother story the lady ran up the middle just so you know for both of you but he had more egg on his face than you certainly did um

Speaker 1 i actually think this is going to end up becoming a big win for the people of maryland and a big win for the people of prince george's county it's closer to maryland you're right we're building this new stadium yeah yeah it's true she got everything didn't she Well, yeah, she's got a lot she's got to figure out.

Speaker 2 Yeah, okay, fine.

Speaker 1 Whatever she want.

Speaker 1 Trump ran on his supposed, you would love to have that stadium, but you do have a lovely baseball stadium, the Orioles.

Speaker 2 We have, we have a fantastic baseball stadium.

Speaker 2 We have the Orioles, we have the Ravens, but I completely get that the commanders, the Washington Commanders, when they bought the team for over $6 billion,

Speaker 2 they came in and bought the team saying we want to move back to our spiritual home of the Washington Commander. It should be a Washington, D.C.
Like, I get it. I understand it.

Speaker 2 But when you look at the deal that we also carved out to where they are paying for the deconstructing stadium, they are paying for their underwriting and serving as

Speaker 2 master contractor for the redevelopment of the area, which is going to actually end up bringing even more attention and more supports for the people of the community.

Speaker 2 I actually think this is going to end up being a big win for Prince George County.

Speaker 1 All right. Okay.
Trump ran.

Speaker 2 And better than the situation they have right now.

Speaker 1 Good runner-up speech. Trump ran on his supposed economic.

Speaker 1 They weren't going to go to Maryland. Trump ran on his supposed economic expansion.
And you're right.

Speaker 2 They They said it when they were

Speaker 2 going to Virginia.

Speaker 1 Chad Leontis in and he's in D.C. again.
Trump ran on his supposed economic expertise. But so far as trade war, let's move to that.
You used to be an investment banker with Citigroup and Deutsche Bank.

Speaker 1 What are your colleagues in finance actually saying about this and the long-term consequences of the prolonged trade war?

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 some of the most colorful language that I've heard about what is going on have actually been from people who I used to work with in finance all right tell me some of those words because they just they're like this is not economics this makes no sense and and you know you cannot you cannot tell me that you care about uh the long-term deficit when you are continuing to spend at historic rates right you can't tell me that a way to create real measurements of economic growth is by going to your core allies and partners and creating this dynamite stick of instability that you're then throwing into all negotiations and it's hurting real people, right?

Speaker 2 Who is actually going to be the real economic engine for our communities? It's hurting for us. It's hurting our farmers on the Eastern Shore.

Speaker 2 who are now seeing that their prices are so out of whack that we have farmers who have been around for over a hundred years who have now told me that they're not sure if they can survive the next six months for sales.

Speaker 2 Exactly, right? And we're talking our poultry farmers, our corn farmers, our barley farmers, right? People who, and agriculture is Maryland's largest industry.

Speaker 2 And it is directly impacting our farmers.

Speaker 2 If you think about things like our port workers who are working at the Port of Baltimore, where the Port of Baltimore really serves the entire country, Baltimore is the largest roll-on, roll-off port that we have in the entire country.

Speaker 2 And so when you're watching this, this huge decrease in goods that are now coming to the United States, that's less hours for our port workers. That's less reliability for our port workers.

Speaker 2 So this is hurting real people. So I'm not sure who's looking at what's going on right now and saying this is a good thing.

Speaker 2 And the problem is, is that we have a policy that's not just ideological, it's stubborn.

Speaker 2 And it's not paying attention to what people are actually seeing right now because it's an ideology that is that is baked.

Speaker 1 We'll be back in a minute.

Speaker 2 Support for this show comes from Odo. Running a business is hard enough.
So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo.

Speaker 2 It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that makes your work easier.
CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more.

Speaker 2 And the best part, Odo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch.
So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odo.com.

Speaker 2 That's odoo.com.

Speaker 2 Support for this show comes from Odo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odo.

Speaker 2 It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier.
CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more.

Speaker 2 And the best part, Odo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch.
So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odo.com.

Speaker 2 That's odoo.com.

Speaker 2 What are you hoping for today in the founders? Scrappy, traction-oriented grinders and hustlers who will blow through every brick wall in this building to get to where they need to be.

Speaker 2 Welcome to the pitch season 14, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. On this season of the show, 10 VCs, seven startups with one shot to build the company of their dreams.

Speaker 1 Oh my God, we built the entirely wrong product.

Speaker 2 Two shots to build the company of their dreams.

Speaker 1 With that intro, let's go.

Speaker 2 Season 14 is available now wherever you listen to podcasts. So subscribe to the pitch so you don't miss it.
This season is presented by Adobe.

Speaker 1 Democrats are not doing very well still. Even if Trump's numbers are down, Democrats are not up.
And so let's talk a little bit about your stance toward Trump evolved very quickly.

Speaker 1 In November, you were talking about finding common ground, as many were emphasizing partnership with the administration.

Speaker 1 By February, you said we're in a full crisis situation and that it's time for all us to take a moment seriously. What made you change your

Speaker 1 tone? Obviously, you hope for the best and prepare for the worst. But

Speaker 1 and again, Democratic Party's favorability is at a record low. The party itself is almost completely powerless at a federal level.
Maybe perhaps diagnose the illness happening here.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean,

Speaker 2 listen, it's a good question. And I've always believed that, you know, it's not my job to help the Democratic Party find itself.

Speaker 2 That's not why. Problem a little bit.
No, no, and I don't because, you know, I remember when I first, you know, when I was first,

Speaker 2 you know, go running for office,

Speaker 2 I ran against people who are statewide elected officials. I ran against the former head of the DNC.

Speaker 2 And then there was me. right the person who'd never been involved in politics before and the thing that i was telling people is listen i what i what I believe in is common sense.

Speaker 2 And what I believe in, what I've always been able to do is to be able to, you know, bring real solutions,

Speaker 2 you know, to real concepts. And I remember when I was, you know, when I was first running for governor, you know, my family, I had to convince them to vote for me.

Speaker 2 And it was, it's not that we're not cool. It's just that I had to convince many members of my family to vote in the first place.
So I don't come from a political background or a party.

Speaker 1 So you were, you were in this partnership mode. What, first of all, what made you change your tone?

Speaker 1 And you've said Democrats need to be careful about defending the status quo because the STEM wasn't working, as you just noted.

Speaker 1 If you leave policy on a purely rhetorical level, what's the message they need to send? And why did you shift your message, for example?

Speaker 2 Well, part of it is because I think partnership actually means it goes both ways.

Speaker 2 If you're giving all the giving and you're not getting anything in return, to be clear and to tell everybody, that's not a partnership, guys.

Speaker 2 Because there's no, there's no, it's not reciprocal.

Speaker 2 And the thing that I continue to see is, you know, in our first weeks and our first months of dealing with this, you know, I was literally finding out announcements about my people with news alerts.

Speaker 2 I found out that the president of the United States at a press conference said the FBI building is not going to go to the state of Maryland, which, by the way, this was a building that we had worked for a decade on, worked independent of politics through the GSA.

Speaker 2 And Maryland won that competition fair and square. A building that's going to be worth around $4 billion of economic activity, be about worth about 7,000 jobs.

Speaker 2 And the president of the United States said during a press conference, it's not going to go to Maryland.

Speaker 2 What am I supposed to do with that?

Speaker 2 Right? That's not a partnership.

Speaker 2 And so part of the thing that I continue to realize was that I believe deeply in partnership and I believe deeply that you can work together with people to create better results and partnerships do produce progress.

Speaker 2 But what I do know is this, if you're the only one given, like, dude, that's not a partnership.

Speaker 2 And so I think the thing that I am continuing to focus on is that I just want to make make sure we're continuing to deliver results for the people of my state.

Speaker 2 Because I think more than anything else and more than any political talking points or whatever like that, like I think people are exhausted by that. I'm exhausted by it.
Right.

Speaker 2 And so I think you got to be able to deliver results.

Speaker 1 What's the message then? What's the method?

Speaker 1 You need to at least illuminate them in some fashion emotionally. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So the message is this, is that. who's actually producing results that are better in your life.
Okay. And who cares? Who cares?

Speaker 2 When you're thinking about that leader and you look at yourself in the mirror, does that leader actually see you?

Speaker 2 Do they want the best for you? Right. Are they thinking about you and your family and your and your future?

Speaker 2 And so I just, I, I, I, I, I think that the, the thing that we've continued to learn from Trump is that the slogans are only going to go but so far. in all this.

Speaker 2 And it's why we've really continued to focus on what are the things that we can deliver for the people in our state.

Speaker 2 So for example, we talk about how, you know, we've been driving people into the workforce and specifically people and not only, but also specifically people who arbitrarily and illegally have lost their jobs.

Speaker 2 And we've now driven Maryland to not just, you know, we've increased around 100,000 new jobs since I've been the governor.

Speaker 2 Maryland now, there was an epidemic, a crisis of violence that our state was dealing with. The homicide rate had nearly doubled in the eight years before I became the governor.

Speaker 2 The non-fatal shooting rate did double. Baltimore City

Speaker 2 went eight straight years of 300 plus homicides in Baltimore City.

Speaker 2 Maryland now has amongst the most impressive drops in violent crime that we have seen over the past two and a half years in Baltimore City, right? Right.

Speaker 2 So we're watching results that are actually happening in people's lives.

Speaker 1 So results would be a word you'd use. Now, you've also said the economy is the number one issue everywhere when it comes to economic policy, though.

Speaker 1 Democrats will always be torn between the left and the center, always.

Speaker 1 The system is broken.

Speaker 1 The moderate approach, which you seem probably to represent, that doesn't promise a revolution and largely defends the economic system, or someone like Bernie Sanders, who's out with the fight oligarchy tour, drawing huge crowds and making the case for democratic socialism with Representative Ocasio-Cortez.

Speaker 1 Like it or not, it's a bold message.

Speaker 1 What is the counteroffer that does excite people, results?

Speaker 2 I think in Maryland, you're seeing bold results.

Speaker 2 I mean, think about it. Just in this past year, we did a complete reform of our tax code.

Speaker 2 And the way we really structured our entire tax code is by making sure that we were able to give the middle class a tax cut.

Speaker 2 That for 94% of people in our state, they either got a tax cut or saw no change in their taxes at all.

Speaker 2 And so I think what people are seeing in Maryland is you're actually having bold and bold, bold changes, but that are producing real results.

Speaker 1 You also had a slash spending, correct?

Speaker 2 No, we did. And we ended up cutting around two and a half, you know, two and a half billion dollars, which is the largest cut that Maryland has made in its budget

Speaker 2 in 16 years.

Speaker 2 However, we were able to have $2.5 billion worth of cuts, the largest cuts in 16 years, and still make historic investments in public education and still make historic investments in public safety.

Speaker 1 So your message would be results versus kill the billionaires, essentially. So you know a lot of billionaires.
I know you probably don't want to kill them.

Speaker 1 As we know, you ran, for people who don't know,

Speaker 1 you had to deal with billionaires quite a bit.

Speaker 1 As we know, democrats did very poorly with young men in november trump won men under 30 by 16 points since then you and a number of other democratic governors are making a point to highlight initiatives to help boys and men um how do you close that cultural gulf between democrats the party and young men magazine itself is fun aggressive anti-censorship anti-establishment movement while democrats are often seen as weak condescending humorless um again putting policy aside for a moment because a lot of young men probably understand culture intuitively uh but don't necessarily know about policy.

Speaker 1 How do you reach out to them? Obviously, by being you, and there's a bunch of that, there is something to that.

Speaker 1 How do you look at winning them back?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting.
He's like, you know, I'm not, you know, I'm not new to this, right? Like, this is work we've been doing for throughout our entire administration.

Speaker 2 This has been an area where I've said

Speaker 2 this is not a lane, it's a lens. where I have every member of my cabinet and every agency now being able to focus on this exact issue.

Speaker 2 And it includes everything from how are we rethinking the ways we're supporting young people who are involved in our juvenile justice system.

Speaker 2 We have a program called Thrive, which is a remarkably effective program,

Speaker 2 which is helping the young people in our communities, urban, rural, and suburban, who have the highest propensity of either being the victim or the perpetrator of violence.

Speaker 2 What we know about them is this, is that over 98% of the participants in Thrive are boys, right?

Speaker 2 So we've been able to put a real focus on saying, what are we doing to rehabilitate the young people that are involved in our juvenile justice system and get them re-entered back into society with a better chance for success?

Speaker 2 That we've been able to streamline getting more men involved in healthcare and education, places where there's often been a dearth of men inside of these occupations, and actually both incentivizing and creating support systems around them as well.

Speaker 2 And so we have looked at from every single angle within our state government of saying, show me the solutions and show me the investments on the things that we can lift up everybody, but make sure that our young men are not being left behind.

Speaker 1 So those are more troubled youth, but it's a broader cultural issue. How do you meet young men where they are culturally?

Speaker 1 Because, you know, Obama was cool. Like it was, they felt an affinity for him, but

Speaker 1 the affinity is for the Joe Rogan gang, maybe less so than recently, but.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, you know, I mean,

Speaker 2 I think about the people who helped me, you know, become the governor. Like, again, I didn't become the governor because of the traditional political folks.

Speaker 2 I became the governor because we had this unbelievable swell of young voters and frankly, young men who came out and supported us. And that has still remained a core part of my base.

Speaker 1 Tell me why, policy aside, what was it? How do you meet them culturally?

Speaker 2 You know why? And

Speaker 1 it's not like them.

Speaker 2 No, and actually, I do think

Speaker 2 it is more than that, even though I think it does matter that people can look and see something, not just, you know, when they can look out and see something outside of a mirror that reflects their future, it helps them to be able to look and or outside of a window.

Speaker 2 It helps them to almost feel like they can look in a mirror and see the same thing. But I do also think there is, there's something,

Speaker 2 there's something bigger than it than that.

Speaker 2 It's that we actually go and see them and they know it's authentic.

Speaker 2 Like when I'm out going out talking to young boys, it's not because I feel like it's going to gain me a couple points on my approval rating, right?

Speaker 2 When I'm out there going out and talking about issues of young young boys it's because they know it's authentic they know it's real and they know it's not the issue of the day and they know it's not because the democrats lost men in a last election like i don't give a about that you know i'm saying like like this is something that's very real for me it's something that it's part of the reason why i got in this thing in the first place and so i think people can suss out authenticity and they can suss out when it's real and that's why i think it's working here in a lot of other places where people are like oh yeah me too i'm going to focus on young men and it doesn't have the same kind of it doesn't have the same kind of resonance.

Speaker 2 Sure.

Speaker 1 I mean, it is the issue of the day, of course.

Speaker 1 Democratic governors, there's a lot of them,

Speaker 1 are all seeming to be potential presidential candidates.

Speaker 1 Governor Gavin Newsom of California, Jay Pritzker of Illinois, Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan are potential presidential candidates who are taking different approaches to governing than you might do.

Speaker 1 Let's do a mini lightning round for a couple of them to give us your take on their different approaches.

Speaker 1 Newsom recently launched a podcast where he's having friendly conversations with people on the extreme right, like Steve Bannon, Charlie Kirk, and Michael Savage.

Speaker 1 I should note, it's not all MAGA guests.

Speaker 2 He also had more white guys,

Speaker 1 people like Scott Galloway, Ezra Klein, and Tim Walls. He keeps threatening to have me on, but as yet, not so.

Speaker 1 You should go.

Speaker 1 He has asked and then totally ghosted me. So thanks, Gavin.

Speaker 1 What do you make of this kind of approach?

Speaker 2 I mean, I don't know. I mean,

Speaker 2 listen, I mean, I think that however people are going out and trying to,

Speaker 2 you know, reach people or talk about the things they're doing, I mean, that's cool, right? I think everybody is going to, everybody's going to each their own.

Speaker 1 I want a review of that. What did you think of that?

Speaker 2 Of which part?

Speaker 1 Him to interview, the way he interviewed them. I mean, specifically Bannon or Kirk or.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 I didn't listen to it.

Speaker 2 I wouldn't do it and I didn't listen to it.

Speaker 1 No, I wouldn't do it. Okay, all right.
I didn't listen to it. Oh, ouch.
Prisker has been very adversarial.

Speaker 1 On the other hand, in a recent speech, he told an audience, never before in my life had I called for mass protests, for mobilization, for disruption, but I am now.

Speaker 1 These Republicans cannot know a moment of peace. That's a totally different approach.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Protest. What do you think of that?

Speaker 2 Well, you know, I mean, I think about what's happening in my state, right?

Speaker 2 Where my people have been under attack

Speaker 2 for these past 100 days. And it's all across the state.
Like we've been standing up these job fairs for Marylanders who have lost their jobs over the past 100 days. And I'll never forget, man.

Speaker 2 I went to one in frederick which is a purple slash red part of maryland and i was walking around i was talking with people and and there's someone came up to me and he told me he introduced himself and he said i just want to let you know i'm a republican um and he said i voted for you he said i'm a republican and he told me he's now been laid off and he said he gets up every morning and he puts on a suit So his kids don't have to know that he has been laid off.

Speaker 1 That's a classic.

Speaker 2 Yeah. That's crazy.
Right. Yeah.
Like he's ashamed to tell his children that he's been laid off. And what I was telling is like, you have nothing to be ashamed.
You did nothing wrong.

Speaker 2 This administration did.

Speaker 1 And so I just have, I look at protests, job fairs versus protests or what?

Speaker 2 Well, no, I think that everybody needs to find their way of being able to mobilize.

Speaker 2 And I think in some cases, it means that some people are going to go out there and they're going to hold signs on Saturdays.

Speaker 2 Some people are going to go out there and do letter-writing campaigns and tell their friends not to buy Teslas.

Speaker 2 Some people are going to go out there and write letters to their representatives and tell them to actually grow a backbone and do their job.

Speaker 2 Some people are going to go out there and making sure they're supporting food pantries. And this past week, I was in Montgomery County, another part of Maryland,

Speaker 2 working at a food pantry.

Speaker 2 You know, who, by the way, have now saying that they are now seeing just as many requests as they saw during the initial moments of COVID.

Speaker 2 So it's just like, so I think everybody is finding their way to be able to stand up.

Speaker 1 Now, Governor Whitmer has gotten in a lot of trouble for being in that Oval Office.

Speaker 1 I think she just got caught there, but she does help secure funding for a military base in Michigan, saying she's working for the Michiganers, just the way you're working for Marylanders.

Speaker 1 She had to cozy up to Trump. She's getting pushback from Democrats because of it.
Is that the price of getting things done? I mean,

Speaker 1 is acquiescence like that in order to get something very important, by the way, not unimportant as the governor?

Speaker 2 Well, listen, I will always fight for my people, right? I will always fight for Marylanders, no matter where in the state that they call home.

Speaker 2 And I know, and while I did not see

Speaker 2 what happened with Gretchen, what I do know is partnership does not work one way. Right.
And I am not willing.

Speaker 2 If you are not willing to be my partner in the work, it makes it very difficult for me to stand up and say, I'm going to be yours.

Speaker 1 What if he had said, if you appear with me, I'll give you that FBI building.

Speaker 2 I don't do transactional like that. I just don't.
I mean, like, if we are really going to build a partnership, we can build a partnership.

Speaker 2 I think one of the things that I have a real distaste for in this in this political thing that I just recently entered into is the transactional nature of politics.

Speaker 2 I don't do that, and it doesn't sit well with me.

Speaker 1 We'll be back in a minute.

Speaker 2 This week on Version History, the Verge's new chat show about old technology, we're talking about the end of the Napster era.

Speaker 2 The beginning of the Napster era, of course, is Napster, but the end is this company called LimeWire, which, if you are a person of a certain age, probably makes you think of the years you spent in college furiously pirating songs from all over the internet.

Speaker 2 LimeWire's story is about technology. It's also about the rise of a new music industry.

Speaker 2 And it's also about whether we all did sketchy, illegal things on the internet for years that we probably shouldn't talk about anymore. But we're going going to talk about them.

Speaker 2 The beginning and end of the LimeWire story this week on Virgin History, on YouTube, and in your podcast app.

Speaker 3 This week on Net Worth and Chill, I'm breaking down the psychology of Black Friday and how to shop smart without going broke.

Speaker 3 With Americans dropping $9.8 billion online during Black Friday alone, the pressure to spend is real and retailers are banking on it.

Speaker 3 I'm sharing my biggest Black Friday wins and fails from scoring amazing travel deals to getting burned by final sale luxury items I'll never wear.

Speaker 3 I'm giving you the exact strategies I use to navigate the sales without falling into the trap of buying things I don't actually need.

Speaker 3 Learn about values-based spending, the tools that help you spot fake discounts, and why I use Black Friday for gift shopping instead of treating myself.

Speaker 3 Get ready to win the Black Friday game on your own terms. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com slash you're rich BFF.

Speaker 1 So a broader question, who do you think is making a competitive, not you, not, it doesn't have to be a Democrat, who's making the most compelling, coherent case for American values

Speaker 1 in the face of Trump's onslaught? It could be anyone, anyone, politicians, intellectuals, someone from pop culture. Who do you think is

Speaker 1 someone you look at and you go, that?

Speaker 2 You know, it's listen, it's a good question.

Speaker 2 I don't know if I'm as up on all of it.

Speaker 2 And I honestly,

Speaker 2 I don't have a punditry answer.

Speaker 1 Okay. Kind of punditry.

Speaker 2 You know, honestly, though, like real talk, I love what we're doing in Maryland.

Speaker 2 Like, I really do, because I think.

Speaker 2 No, no, no. I mean, like, I mean, like, like Team Maryland.
You know what I mean? Because I think we're actually producing results for the people of our state, despite.

Speaker 1 I like Steve Kerr. I like Steve Kerr and his basketball team.
I mostly like Steve Kerr. I don't really care about sports.

Speaker 2 He's a good dude. I mean, I like him.
I like him a lot. And you're right.
His team is looking good.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So every episode, we get an

Speaker 1 answer for that one. Okay.
Every episode, we get an expert question. For this one, we got a fellow Democratic governor.
Let's hear it. Hey, Governor Moore.

Speaker 1 it's your friend maura healy and i just have been dying to ask you this question you're somebody who works hard plays hard you

Speaker 1 go late and yet every morning you're at the naval academy 5 30 doing god knows what and torturing your body anyhow where do you get your energy and uh how do i get me some of that Yo, so first, can I tell you how much I love Maura Healy?

Speaker 1 Yeah, she's a beautiful.

Speaker 1 She's the governor of Massachusetts for people who don't know.

Speaker 2 Sorry. Yes.
Governor of Massachusetts.

Speaker 2 She's not just, she's not just, you know, one of my absolute, absolute

Speaker 2 fave governors. She's just such a good human being.
She really is. So like I'm a huge, I'm a huge Maura Healy fan.

Speaker 2 You know, it's interesting because when I, for me, and she is right. It is true.
At 0-6 every morning, I'm at the Naval Academy.

Speaker 2 And I'm thankful that even despite being an Army guy and I'm a former combat veteran,

Speaker 2 and I have to, but I go down to the Naval Academy every morning to go work out with the midshipmen and go work out with the team there.

Speaker 2 And it's great because for me, it's not just physically testing and physically trying,

Speaker 2 but also what it is for me,

Speaker 2 it's mental health.

Speaker 2 It's one of the only times in the day when I'm not like tethered to a phone or tethered to a briefing or whatever like that. It's just like, it's just you and it's them.
And

Speaker 2 it's your body, right? And you're just going after it. And it has been one of the, when people have said, like, honor,

Speaker 2 what's one of the really cool joys for you about being a governor? Real talk for me, it's been the fact that I start my morning every morning at 06 in the Naval Academy.

Speaker 2 That has been one of the great joys for me of being the governor of Maryland.

Speaker 1 So how do you, she wants to know your workout schedule, but that's okay. We'll move on.

Speaker 2 Oh, no, but that's the thing. It's like every day, every day they're going to give you something else.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Like some days we're going to go out, we're going to go do a, you know, do a a a multi-mile run for some days we're gonna go hit the weight room for some days we're gonna go push sleds for some days you know we'll we'll go out and do the versa machine like it it is it changes every single day because actually one of the strength coaches is the person who puts it all together so shout out to fits okay who keeps me straight All right.

Speaker 1 So the Francis Scott T-Bridge collapsed after it was hit by a container ship, and now a huge new bridge is scheduled by 2028. Very briefly, an update on that.

Speaker 1 Is the Trump administration helping or hurting? Is there any way to rebuild it faster?

Speaker 1 Where is that right now, very briefly?

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, you know, I'm really proud that Maryland really put on a case study on how to respond in atomic crisis because you're right that at 2.02 in the morning when my phone rang on it, you know, we were told that morning that just clearing the federal channel would take 11 months.

Speaker 2 And we got it done in 11 weeks.

Speaker 2 And we are still able to find, you know, the bodies of the individuals who we lost and return them to their families and make sure they got the closure that they needed, make sure we took care of all the port workers and their families and the small businesses.

Speaker 2 So that was a true crisis that I think the state of Maryland really navigates its way through remarkably.

Speaker 2 And we're thankful that even the support that we got from Congress, it was bipartisan support for the 100% cost share because I told them that

Speaker 2 it took over 10 years to build that bridge initially. Right.
And I told them, we've got to get it done faster. We've got to make sure we're producing a result that's going to be safe.

Speaker 2 And we're thankful that Congress has given the support. So we've

Speaker 1 anticipate any problems.

Speaker 2 There should be no issues because this has already been codified by Congress. And so

Speaker 2 we are moving full steam ahead to ensure that we can get the Francis Scott Key Bridge built as quickly as possible with all the safety parameters that are going to be required because we also know that the bridge that was built in 1975 is going to require new safety parameters for a bridge that's built in in 2025.

Speaker 2 So, but we're going to make sure we do that.

Speaker 1 So, you don't feel that there's going to be any pushback on that.

Speaker 2 We are very thankful that Democrats and Republicans in Congress have said that they want to get this thing done.

Speaker 1 Okay, we're going to wrap up the interview by talking, going back to national ambitions. Obviously, we can't ignore them.
You're on the short list for Democratic presidential candidates in 2028.

Speaker 1 George Clooney says you're his new fave. I don't know if you know that.
Stephen Smith said he'd campaigned for you. If he's not campaigning for himself, he might run against you.

Speaker 1 Plenty of other party bigwigs think you have what it takes. I do know Republicans are worried about you, as I told you at dinner.
They seem to be focused on you quite a bit.

Speaker 1 Obviously, Maryland is one of the bluest states in the country. And,

Speaker 1 you know, there's lots of issues they can push at. One of them that you and I discussed was the New York Times report about the Bronze Star.

Speaker 1 The paperbook hadn't gone through.

Speaker 2 The Bronze Star that I received.

Speaker 1 That you did receive. Now you have, correct?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Oh, that is correct.
Yes.

Speaker 2 In fact, the United States Army, once they realized that there was a mistake within the paperwork, corrected it in last November.

Speaker 2 What ended up happening was when I was told about it by a person who's now a three-star general that I was going to receive it, he had all the authorizations that he thought that were going to be necessary and required.

Speaker 2 And frankly, I just know I just focused my time when I got home. I was just thankful that I was able to get home and that I got home safely.

Speaker 1 And are you worried about being turned into a weakness, fairly or not?

Speaker 2 No, no, no.

Speaker 2 I'm thankful for my service. I'm thankful for the service that I did.

Speaker 2 I'm thankful for the service I did with the other paratroopers, you know, when I was leading paratroopers in Afghanistan in a combat zone.

Speaker 2 And if any, you know, people want to have conversations about my service, I am, I'm very ready for that conversation.

Speaker 1 But you're aware they've done it, John Kerry and Tim Walls and everyone else

Speaker 1 in some fashion, correct?

Speaker 2 Oh, I'm aware, but I'm very thankful for my service that I was able to make at home. And

Speaker 2 I'm thankful for

Speaker 2 the work that I did with the other soldiers in Afghanistan.

Speaker 1 Okay. So last question: What should um project 2029 be? I mean, you don't have to call it that because it's the would be stealing from the Republicans, which is fine, I guess.

Speaker 1 So, the best case scenario for you and the Democrats take back the White House and both chambers of Congress. What would be the priorities for you, even if you were not president?

Speaker 1 Um, what to undo the damage done by the Trump administration, or something fresh and new? So, if you were to say Project 2029, what would it be for Westmore? What are the most important things?

Speaker 2 You know,

Speaker 2 it's not a real focus because I'm not running.

Speaker 2 But, you know, I'm running for re-election in 26. But the thing that I do know is.

Speaker 2 Did you say you're not running for president?

Speaker 1 You don't know if you're running for president.

Speaker 2 I'm not running.

Speaker 2 But I am running for re-election in 26.

Speaker 2 But the thing that I do know is if you look at what we've done in Maryland, I think it's actually an important roadmap that people are going to be paying attention to because, and I think the people in Maryland seem to like now our numbers are strong people in maryl seem to like what we're doing the fact that we've been able to raise the minimum wage right the fact that we have driven maryland to the lowest to historically low unemployment rates the fact that we did the largest uh mass pardon in the history of the united states of america 175 000 pardons for misdemeanor cannabis evictions the fact that we followed up with expungement reform and being able to clean the records for individuals who are sitting there and still being punished for something that in some cases happened decades ago for misdemeanors the fact that we've been able to create the first service year option in the history of the United States where every single Maryland high school graduate now has a chance to have a year of service to the state of Maryland.

Speaker 2 The fact that we now have created the first state-led, first ever state-led place-based investment strategy when it comes to combating childhood poverty and making childhood poverty history within the state of Maryland.

Speaker 2 I think we have done some things that have been really thoughtful, really creative, and we've been able to drive real results in people's lives.

Speaker 2 And I think that's what actually resonates with the the folks in our state.

Speaker 1 So what's the through line in that is what? If you were, I know you're saying you're not running. I assume that's yet.

Speaker 1 But you don't have to answer. It's fine.
I don't care. This is a stupid game.

Speaker 2 I'm not running.

Speaker 1 What is the through line? You're not running yet.

Speaker 1 But what,

Speaker 1 okay, you're not running. What is the through line in that? What's what when you say that? That's my last question for you.

Speaker 1 What is the through line of what's happening in Maryland that has implications that could be rolled out across the u.s be bold

Speaker 2 be bold you know we only have but so long in these seats you know i i have a i have a clock that sits on my desk and it tells me right now i got 638 days left uh until the end of my first term and i'm gonna run it back i'm gonna i'm gonna ask the people for a second term but um but but you only have but so much time here don't waste a single day go be bold right and and if there are things that you know that you can address if you can actually focus on things like increasing housing options and making sure you're getting rid of this dearth of housing that our communities continue to deal with, if you can actually focus on things like having a strong public education system and making sure that we're not completely condemning our children because of the neighborhoods that they live in about the schools that they're going to attend, if you can actually do things like increase economic opportunities and apprenticeship programs and give people a better pathway to long-term economic success, if you're not in the seat focusing on that every day, then why are you in in the seat in the first place?

Speaker 2 What are you there for? And so my whole thing is be bold. All right.

Speaker 1 Governor Moore, thank you so much.

Speaker 2 Thank you so much. Good to see you again.

Speaker 1 On with Caravis Wisher is produced by Christian Castor Rousselle, Kateri Yoakum, Dave Shaw, Megan Burney, Megan Kunane, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kirwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts.

Speaker 1 Special thanks to Annika Robbins. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Aruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics.
If you're already following the show, you get results.

Speaker 1 I still don't think that's quite the message we want to send. If not,

Speaker 1 you don't get a stadium. You're the runner-up.
Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow.

Speaker 1 Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.