Share & Grill & Tell with Mike Golic Jr. and Mina Kimes

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I recently went to the eye doctor, and I, for the first time in like six years, didn't go up a number.

It was a big day.

It was a big day.

Does that feel like it's gotten as bad as it could get?

I think.

think i think i maxed out i think they were just like at this point are you at the point where you have readers i don't have readers i wear contacts all day though gotcha oh yeah i'm still fond of sleep with these things in my eyeballs you sleep the last thing that i should do is the thing i do so often when you go to the eye doctor now do they give you the option of buying the 3d rendering of the inside of your eye that looks like like lord of the rings I'll show you what it looks like.

Hold on.

I didn't know that was an option.

You can get your Sauron picture taken.

It seems completely unnecessary, and yes, a diagram of your eyeball.

This is what inside everyone's eye looks like.

Does it not look like Sauron?

It does look like the eye of Sauron.

The crazy part is, you see your eyelashes.

Yeah.

And then it's like the Aurora Borealis.

Right.

Then you realize, like, oh, wow, like this is, and then all the like capillaries.

It's so like, it looks like a Van Gogh painting or something, too.

That's it.

Yeah, the top of the eye and the, yeah, the bottom.

Yes.

It's cool, right?

Exclusive Mina Kimes eyeball footage.

Love that we're starting with that.

By the way, speaking of seeing things, it is so good to see Mike Oleg Jr.

My eyeballs, my rods could not be more erect upon seeing the man.

So we are reuniting for the first time since I was in L.A.

It's been roughly about a year since we taped Celebrity Family Feud.

And just seeing both you guys, obviously, but Gojo in any sort of capacity just reminds me of feeling the greatest I will ever feel in my life.

Being at this building reminds me of when I like sheepishly tried to bully you guys into letting me come to the taping of that.

You had mentioned it and I was just like, so what are you guys doing later?

Can I come?

Just worked my way into the crowd so I could go be a giant in a crowd full of short people.

You are

many things and I hope this doesn't sound like I'm limiting you to a role, but you are the ultimate plus one.

Like ultimate guest ultimate plastic America's plus one.

Like that is, you're dying because you know it's true.

Like, the other day,

a friend of mine, this guy Andam, I went to college with, was like, hey, I got tickets to the CONCACAF semis at

SoFi, and it was USA versus Panama and Mexico versus Canada.

And then another ticket sprang open, and I was like,

of course, I'm going to ask Michael Jr.

and you're like, yeah, I'd go.

What is it about you?

Everybody loved you.

Fit right in.

I think also provide bodyguard services.

Also, that added beef to the equation.

The Howie Roseman's world, people understand the value of having large bodies around.

You win parties in the trenches.

I've often said that.

But I think it's twofold.

One, it's attitude.

Like my sister was appalled when she heard that I did that.

She's like, how were you ready to go in an hour for something like that?

And the turnaround time and the willingness there, because I am an adult without children.

Like I don't have responsibilities.

I don't have a dog.

I don't have kids at home.

And so I can pick up and go.

Sarah Spain, the reason I got to go and see the Ted Lasso season premiere one year was because Sarah was out here in Los Angeles with her husband for that.

And they had an extra ticket that popped up.

And Sarah literally said, You're the only person I know without kids who could be ready in an hour on a Tuesday night to come to Brentwood and hang out with the cast there.

So being, it's, I mean, it's kind of like sports.

The best ability is availability.

And I am criminally available.

You're also willing.

Yes.

Which is, it's willing and able.

And you were like, and you're down.

You're just like down to do anything.

I like to think, too, that I can get along with a lot of groups.

That is if you just

throw me into a group of people I haven't met.

I'm not going to embarrass you in front of company.

You got there before me.

We're just hanging out with everyone.

Yeah, social safe harbor.

is what I think of.

Just like you're a port in a storm.

It's such a great compliment.

It is truly.

Touched.

I don't know what part of that you thought would be like offensive to me.

That is the ultimate compliment.

Plus one implies you're not like the main character.

Like I feel like.

Yeah.

I'm fine not being the main character.

That I think is part of it as well, though.

You not having main character syndrome.

Yes.

You're not like a look at me Louie.

Yeah.

Again, not to make everything sports, but like I was an offensive lineman.

Like talk about wanting to not be the main character.

That's my life.

It also helps being friends with main characters who have cool tickets to sell, which I mean, most of my cool experiences when I tell people about him in LA, it's like, did not mean I had a plus one to that.

The Love is Blind finale.

What's up?

I do want to start today's show with a topic that I've been thinking about deeply.

And it starts with a bit of sadness because George Foreman, a mountain of a man in his own right, he died last week at age 76.

And for people who don't know, Foreman was one of the greatest heavyweights of all time.

He was somebody who insinuated himself into the tripod that was Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier and George Foreman.

He was the guy who fought Ali at the Rumble in the Jungle.

His first pro fight was 1969.

His last fight was 1997.

But his legacy, speaking of how we perceive the great characters in our lives, his legacy, you could argue, was actually this.

Had a busy day?

My lean mean fat-reducing grilling machine is great to come home to.

It lets you prepare hot, delicious meals in just minutes.

My extra-large grill with temperature control is only available from Sears and it's a knockout.

Dinner's ready, George.

I'm so proud of it, I'll put my name on it.

Have you guys ever used the George Foreman grill before?

Are we American humans on this earth?

Yeah.

I figured that was an everyone thing, like just a rite of passage.

So statistically, it's also real.

So in the 1990s, the George Foreman Lean Mean Fat Reducing Grilling Machine, that was the title, was the second most purchased home appliance after the television.

Wow.

Oh my God.

So just let's just sit with that for a second.

And the visuals, in case you're not watching on YouTube, which you obviously should, to see both the size contrast between me and Michaelick Jr., but also what it looks like to see a George Foreman grill.

It's simple.

I mean, visually, it's like a panini press,

but on a slope.

The angle was really the innovation, right?

Like just that ability to knock out the fat into that tray in front, the tagline, all of it worked so well.

And I mean, I don't know, as someone that grew up in a cold weather environment, being able to grill stuff in the wintertime inside doors indoors huge so when that came out because i was a child so i barely remember i just remember everyone had one i remember using it i remember the commercials and other things about george foreman but since then so many imitators have sprung up and i think actually at the time not many people had i don't think paninis were even no this was the forerunner of the panini press

which then ever became omnipresent yeah so i at the time nothing like this really existed so the origin story of this is actually fascinating and it involves an inventor who had what he called a short order grill, but in the 90s, this is QVC era.

Yeah.

Right.

So this was, imagine like the, the, the primordial ooze of name, image, and likeness.

Yeah.

Was like television for us as kids.

You'd turn on the television and there'd be celebrity pitch men.

And so for the George Foreman Grill, and again, I had one in my house.

I had one in my first apartment.

My roommate Juan would attract hundreds of mice with that grease tray inadvertently, all of that.

The reason why all of this was happening, why it became the most successful athlete-branded product of all time, short of, I believe, the Air Jordan, which is an incredible, an incredible thing.

It begins actually, our story of this, with something that Hulk Hogan.

told our friend Dan Lebetard in 2014 on Highly Questionable, a show we all know, have done.

Because

Hulk Hogan, Terry Balia, told Dan that he missed a phone call that would have enabled him to be the king of the grill.

Is it true that you passed on the George Foreman grill idea?

No, that's not true.

I missed the phone call.

What happened?

Tell me the story.

Well, I mean, you know, George Foreman and I had the same agent, and my kids were complaining that I was always

towards the end of the line picking them up at school.

They would get out of school at three o'clock and these soccer moms would start lining up their minivans and talking shop, you know, and so I would come at quarter to three, 15 minutes before my kids get out of school, and I was at the back of the bus.

So I went to McDonald's early, got Diet Cokes and got the burgers and the fries.

And it was a big surprise.

I got to the school about quarter after two.

I was the first one in line.

My kids came out.

They were all excited.

I had the drinks and the hamburgers and stuff.

And we went home and I checked my answer machine.

And my answer machine, my agent called me.

He goes, hey, Hogan, I'm calling you.

I got two things.

I got a grill and I got a blender.

I got these two choices for you and George.

So when I called him back, my agent says, well, I called you first

and I figured you'd take the grill, but you weren't home.

So I called George and he took the grill.

So

$450 million later, we've got the George Foreman grill in every size and color you can imagine.

And I got the blender that you'd put eight ounces of water, a scoop of protein, and a AA battery in it.

It'd spin three times and fart and cut off.

I was just going to ask if we knew the whereabouts of the blender.

Oh, so it sounds like the magic bullet.

Mike, I was hoping someone would ask.

It was called the Hulk Hogan Thunder Mixer.

It was a real thing.

It did, in fact, fart out stuff and was terrible.

He also tried to make his own grill, by the way, Hulk Hogan, and it failed, obviously.

Nothing could compete.

So this is an incredible sliding doors alternate history in which Hulk Hogan becomes what George Foreman became in all of his economic success and his cultural influence.

A different country, I might even argue.

Yeah, right?

Yes, for a lot of reasons.

So what we wanted to do is fact-check this, and immediately we went to the grill's inventor to meet his question, this guy, Michael Bohm, and what his family did, and they issued a statement to us here at Pablo Dora, it finds out,

because they dispute the Hulkster's cataloging of events.

Quote, George Foreman was the only celebrity our dad approached about endorsing the grill.

We don't know who started the story about Hulk Hogan being approached, but it isn't accurate.

End quote.

And so immediately, I'm like, okay, we have a real he said, she said, Hulk said, they said.

And the agent that Hulk Hogan cited in that clip was a guy named Sam, it turns out, the agent who wrapped both Hulk Hogan and George Foreman.

Unfortunately, Sam also passed away.

This was last fall, but they shared a lawyer.

And the lawyer is a guy named Henry Holmes.

And that lawyer, Henry Holmes, told us also that the Hulk Hogan story is, quote, not my recollection.

And in fact,

in fact, what he said was that it was two other celebrities that their shared representation, their agent, was asking about.

And he says, well, I want to get involved in merchandising.

I'd love to do something with Pamela Anderson.

And I said, Pammy's very particular, Sam, and I don't think you have her sensibilities.

I'll ask.

And then he had a great eye.

He said, what about Chuck Norris and we could do a lock deal?

And I said, well, you know, Chuck is

busy with his television stuff he said can you talk to george so george says tell him to find a hamburger grill

this is really a who's who of the most famous people in the 1990s it really is

it really is and so i was just thinking about how each of them would have worked like Obviously, regardless of feelings about Hulk Hogan and what he represents, based on that time period in his stardom, Grill probably still would have worked.

Pam Anderson and Chuck Norris are interesting to me because in looking and thinking back on this now, part of the George Foreman appeal in my mind is always the underlying thing in food conversations, which is I trust a big guy.

George Foreman, big guy, cooking the food in there.

I'm like, oh yeah, of course he knows what he's talking about in food.

Look at how much food he's probably eaten over the years.

And so, of course, I trust a big guy more so like, you know, Pam Anderson, Chuck Norris.

I know Chuck Norris had like the total gym, so maybe not a super far cry, but George just felt like the perfect perfect symphony of background and enthusiasm for the product that we saw, all those things that came together and made it work.

Does it feel authentic to him?

I think is the question when you think about athlete sponsorships, right?

We don't believe it if we can't imagine you using it.

And George Foreman, this is a detail that I'm so glad, again, Gojo's here to learn.

George Foreman was known for eating two burgers before fights.

He was the self-described cheeseburger champ.

God,

but that's what I mean.

Preceded the grill.

Yes.

So he actually Foreman is a bigger character in the origin story of his own.

Again, what we thought was someone else's externally imposed sponsorship than he ever got credit for.

And so the cheeseburger champ,

what they do is that he signs a deal that's inspired by Michael Jordan's mother's negotiations with Nike.

So this is a sort of famous sports business story.

It's no upfront guarantees, but the back end,

George Foreman gets 45%.

45%.

So George owned part of this licensing deal.

And

the first few

months,

it wasn't really generating a lot.

And we all got together and say, well, this, you know, was George punching and stuff.

So we talked, and George was part of the discussion.

And I said, let's make him a cook that he's cooking.

He had the hamburger,

you know, a presentation when he was training for fights.

And so we changed the infomercial

and it hit like a bang.

Isn't this exciting?

You did not come here today to buy, right?

Not at all.

As a matter of fact.

You can't win on that robe.

Now, I'm in the office and they said, George is on the call.

It's an emergency.

And I went, emergency.

So, yeah, George, it's Henry.

Are they laundering money?

Who's laundering money?

Did you see our check on the grill?

I said, you know, I don't pay attention to that.

But let me, oh my God, maybe they are laundering money.

At the height of the grill's popularity, George Foreman was being paid $8 million

a month.

And this was in the 90s, right?

This is in the 90s.

$8 million a month in the 90s.

Random question.

Do they still sell them?

I am so glad you asked.

So when I looked this up on Amazon, it's the most popular indoor grill product still today.

Still going.

Still going.

Still going.

Well, it's, I was thinking about it too.

It's like Google, where anything I see that is like this to me is a George Foreman grill.

The same way that like

Xerox,

Kleenex, all these things are not just brands, they are the product.

Follow-up thought.

Do we think that the Zoomer generation even knows George Foreman was a boxer?

I think there's a real chance that they don't.

I think there's a real chance that he's merely the autographed cursive name on this thing that their parents have at home.

I think they might not even remember that George Foreman in 1997, this is his last fight, like all boxers, he retired, unretired, fought when it was way too late.

And so the last fight of his career, he loses to a guy named Shannon Briggs that I personally don't remember otherwise.

It's the Trump Taj Mahal in Atlantic City.

And while George Foreman is standing in the ring post-game interview, he says this.

George, your reaction to the decision.

Well, Larry, I want you to see something.

Look, that's about eight weeks I spent on that George Foreman lean, mean, fat-reducing grilling machine.

I would grill right in the bedroom, steaks and salmon steaks, and I was able to lose a lot of weight.

And I use it, the thing really works.

And recently, in Texas, they just started this home equity loan.

People can borrow the little extra money they need on the mortgages.

And what has that got to do with the price of tea in China or the result of this fight?

Trying to sell my grill, Larry.

Jeez.

The goat,

the pitch man goat is what we just witnessed in that clip.

We are all obviously sad for his family that he has been lost.

I have to imagine that outside of them, the saddest people on the planet that George is no longer with us are the Paul brothers, that they couldn't rope him into a fight because that kind of energy in that environment is perfect.

I feel like the innovation right now is happening at the NIL level.

Like,

what's the air conditioner?

Decold as Crawford.

Decoldis Crawford getting the AC sponsorship in Nebraska.

Hey, this is Decodus Crawford.

Rod receiving from Louisiana, now playing in Lincoln.

When your AC isn't Dakotas, you call SOS heating and cooling.

I will say one that comes to mind was Kyler Murray getting a Call of Duty deal.

That was funny.

Oh, that's good.

Well done.

Yeah.

We fully believe that he is going to continue to play that game.

It was blue.

And that cuts to the Foreman principle, which is what you were saying.

Like, do you trust a big guy to sell a grill?

Yes.

I trust Kyler Murray to sell video games.

Yes.

George Foreman, to give a more economic context to this.

So all boxers effectively go broke.

And five years after the manufacturer made this licensing deal with George Foreman,

they then bought their rights to his name for $148.5 million,

which is just.

We don't respect

what this man accomplished as much as we have paid tribute to him as what he was, which was one of the great heavyweights at a time when heavyweight fighters, of course, were the most important people in sports.

I don't want to celebrate Bobby Benilla Day anymore.

I want to celebrate George Foreman Day because we all like my dad always jokes when he would sign something or someone would show, like, hey, this is on eBay.

My dad's like, well, my signature probably brought the value down on that.

George's signature was worth $148 million.

That's insane.

Celebrate that man.

Explains why he named all his kids after him.

Right?

All of them.

George, Georgina, Georgette.

George Foreman's children.

I'm going to give you some of the names on the depth chart.

George Jr., Georgetta, George III,

George IV,

which is, again, interesting.

George V.

Wait for it.

George VI.

And Natalie.

If you're Natalie, are you thrilled or pissed?

They also have nicknames.

Yes.

Wait, this is, I looked up the other day.

This is my favorite part.

So George.

Or the George Foreman children rock.

So George III is Monk.

George IV is Bigwheel.

Yes.

George V is Red.

And George VI, very confusingly, is Little Joey.

I need to know the backstory of Big Wheel so bad.

That sounds like a prime little kid nickname.

That feels like another episode entirely oh man big wheel big wheel big wheel if you're if your circle of friends isn't handing out nicknames like big wheel you need a new circle

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All right, Mina.

What did you bring today?

Is your topic?

The story that I want to start with is

the

former running back turned influencer Ashton Hall.

He is an influencer before this.

He was pretty

active on TikTok.

And anyways, went viral really like a week ago.

It's been a week now that we've lived in this Ashton Hall.

It's only been a week.

I know.

Post his morning routine

on, actually, it went viral on Twitter, but he's a TikTok guy.

And so he's a Florida-based fitness trainer who often posts videos of his daily routine.

This routine, however, took off and went viral because it features him, it has like little time stamps, and it has notably him pouring a bottle of Saratoga water, Saratoga Springs water, into a bowl of ice.

And then that was at 5.46 a.m.

doing his workout and then doing a lot of other strange things.

But at

9 a.m., dunking his face into the bottle of water.

Many people made parodies of it, including our own Mike Golick Jr.

So for the audio audience, go check out Mike Golick Jr.'s video.

It has him.

pouring a bowl of lucky charms and then dunking his face into it.

Yeah, which feels like, again, authentically, actually, what plausibly Mike Golick Jr.

might be doing in the morning.

100%.

So true to form.

When I'm on TikTok, the algorithm, all I see

is,

not all I see, but a lot of what I see is very beautiful young women trying to sell me very cheap and ugly clothing.

Like you would not believe like this

$20 dress looks amazing on everyone.

And I can look at it.

I'm like, this is obviously very ugly.

And like, you look amazing in it because you're hot.

Also, we have, we see like get ready with me routines, a lot of that.

There's a lot of reality TV content.

So my question was: men, what is the like male equivalent of that unique to them?

Like, in addition to seeing that kind of crap, I also see, you know, like a lot of mock drafts and whatnot.

So, so I know that every male is looking at Mita's algorithm is fashion Nova and mock drafts.

Yes.

You know, every you're all beautiful, special snowflakes with your own individually catered algorithms.

I'm sure Mike's has a lot of very key differences from Pablo's.

That said, I do think there's right now,

regardless, specific to gender, you are seeing influencers pitch you the same crap.

And so when I saw this video, I thought, wow, this is a lot of what I imagine men, regardless of even if you're a man who works out a lot, like men are seeing this.

So that is my question.

I would pause, like, what is the slop?

What are male influencers pitching to men right now?

Well, like with this one, and it's the most common one, it's being jacked and appearing successful is is the thing that they want to sell most men.

I did go through and look specifically at the ads I was served on TikTok the other day, like what people were actually trying to sell me.

And it's a mix of really shitty t-shirts that have things like a dog with a beer can in its mouth or Japanese anime characters on it, which might be a personal thing.

Again, the center of the Venn diagram, that is you.

There is also the push-up board, which offers you the ability to do push-ups from different angles and thus to hit different muscle groups.

A lot of custom hats and mugs, which are big on that.

And the two things I think I see most often for men that are being marketed are

competitive brands of like athleisure dress pants, like different versions of like Lululemon, like Chinos, some version of that, where it's like,

my boyfriend used to buy, and a lot of times it's also women talking about men, which is the other thing we get served a lot.

Interesting.

Is it's women being like, my boyfriend had these and I hated it.

And then he got these and now I loved it.

Right.

And now when I'm at my standing treadmill desk,

I am absolutely equipped to be on a Zoom call as well as,

you know, moisture wicking my legs.

Yes.

Fellas love a moisture wick, apparently, because that's all our clothes are made.

Like they make suits now.

Tech fabrics.

Oh, man.

Tech fabrics.

Yeah, we're out in that same quadrant of the algorithm of like this suit is also something that is kind of able to be danced inside of.

So this is actually a response I got a lot.

And then I mentioned it to my husband and he co-signed it, which is just putting the word tactical in front of stuff.

Like, so, and he gets like tactical baby carrier, tactical stroller, because

our algorithms show us a lot of kid.

stuff, right?

Because I'll spend a little too much time watching someone be like, here's a minute, how to get your kid to fall asleep every time.

And I'm like,

so we get, I'll advertise to that.

But is there anything like they won't put tactical in front of of for men?

I mean, if we're doing stroller, the answer is no.

Like, what is a tactical stroller?

Does that have a mounted turret on the back?

It's camo, first of all.

That's always what it is, is it's just, hey, we made a camo for you with like an extra pocket.

But hey, big boy, you think because you play a lot of Call of Duty, you're ready to fight in the military.

So we'll give you some tactical gear to go with that misguided belief.

Yeah, my tactical boxer shorts, which have like loops for carabiners.

Super, super popular.

Ooh,

honestly, it is a lot.

There are a lot more boxer brands than you realize, too.

It really is like it's putting tactical in front of it and then assuring you we will take care of your privates.

Cause the amount of like male trimmers that are on there, wow, oh, yeah, too many to count.

Wow.

Yeah.

I want to clarify: I am not my clicks.

So I think this is just a philosophy that all of us should embrace more.

The algorithm is not who we are, it is who we have been tempted by an unfair, dark force in Silicon Valley to become so

I think that's worth mentioning emphasizing here though because like I I have never once purchased a item of clothing from TikTok but they're still trying man so I like that point that you made and that's why I do think there are like aspects of it where they are showing things I know I will like but they are really they the omniscient they

these apps are mixing things that I have never shown an indication of liking and yet they're still trying it's like being hunted and it's like yeah, you know where I drink at the watering hole, what time I'm there.

You know that I have the capacity to sometimes fall through the little trap you've set.

It just sticks in some leaves over it.

I get it, but I'm not actually always trying to go there.

You are putting it in front of me because I feel

you think that I'm weak.

And sometimes I am.

Well, so that's the thing I was going to ask is because Mina, you mentioned you've not bought anything on the TikTok shop.

Man, I bought one of those things where you put, you hang it over the doorknob of a door, and it's, it's called a neck hammock.

What?

So I get a lot of chiropractor videos.

Do you have back problems?

I have a lot of like

on command.

That was impressive.

Horrible.

And real.

Yes.

Okay, so the algorithm does know you here.

So they sold me a neck.

The predator hunting me sold me a neck hammock.

And so did I, at various points, hang it on a doorknob in my house and then lie down and try to recreate the release that I was promised in this short form video that was euphoric and almost orgasmic?

Yes, I tried to get that and I felt none of it.

Tactical neck hammock.

I was going to say, if you put camo on it, you immediately become the core demographic.

But we are sort of the perfect generation for this in some ways, because As evidenced by the George Foreman Grill, this has been a part, like I remember begging my mom, like, mom, I am a maybe 12, 13 year old boy not doing my own laundry at this point, but I'm like, mom, we got to get Oxy clean.

Oh, my God.

It's incredible.

It was like all of those, like the slap tape,

all of that stuff.

What were they put it on a clear boat?

Yes.

And it stayed up.

And it did.

The sham wow.

Yeah, the sham wow.

I had all of that stuff because I was a mark then as a kid.

I like your point, though, about the through line here because it's, or it's interesting, like, to think, like, those commercials, we were children, we were, they were really good advertising, right?

Like, it was just, like, we saw the George Gorman commercial.

I don't think any of this stuff is that we're seeing now is particularly well-made or thoughtful or well-crafted.

It's just relentless.

Yes, it's, I think, so this, my nostalgia, I realize as we say this aloud, is for the story.

The story of this product, the, the narrative that they're weaving.

That's why it sticks with me now.

Right now, if you ask me to remember the ad that sold me the neck hammock,

I don't remember it.

Just like the general sense that, ah, someone made a sound, but there was no story there.

It was like five seconds.

And that's the part that it's like, oh, that's how little you think of us now.

At least there, it felt like there was some effort.

But with this now, like going all the way back to the Ashton Hall story, I don't know if he was paid by the water company or not, but I've seen their sales have gone crazy because everyone's buying it, even ironically, just to do videos to mock it.

But with that, there was no sell to it.

It was just the sell with all these people.

And Mina, you talked about it with the dresses, the majority of influences.

Look at how hot this person is.

Look at how rich this person looks.

And don't you want the thing that they're also using so that you will also appear rich, which is a concept that's pretty well worn.

But in those infomercials, that wasn't it.

It was, hey, I can keep a boat afloat with this weird ass tape.

That's sick.

Look what it can do.

The other thing, like back then, there were people who were addicted to it, right?

Like, as seen on TV, it was not a common thing.

Now, it's like the thing is there, it's relentless, and it's also giving being fed to you on a device where with one click, you can get it and it's cheap also because costs have come down even further because of, you know, manufacturing and whatnot and delivery.

So, it's just so much more insidious now, I think, than it was then.

Yeah, we are nostalgic for a time when as seen on TV feels in retrospect like it's high art relative to what we're doing, when it was criticized at the time as being like the slop.

Yes.

People were very, very like negative about this.

Yeah, it felt like that was preying on us.

We now realize that, God,

it was it was golden age.

It was a golden age.

Are we really just trapped by our own nostalgia, though?

Because Pablo, you mentioned the relentless nature of it.

And who among us does not remember being woken up after falling asleep on the couch in the middle of the night with the TV on by the sounds of one of the now that's what I call music CDs that's being advertised or any of those, where it just immediately hits you, blasts you with this number, and you hear it.

over and over so often.

I could at that time recite every song.

It was like the riff off in Pitch Perfect, where a lot of those songs now I only know in the context of how they flow into each other in that movie.

You used to know those songs based on how they would flow into the next track on that album of 80s hits or whatever.

Now that's what I call music version.

And it was also equally relentless in a way that felt subliminal.

Now that's what I call music.

I haven't thought about that in so long.

I made my mom buy me the, I think like the 2000s pop one when I was in junior high.

A lot of Britney and those were like the best-selling CDs.

Yes, as they should have been.

Yes.

I do now realize that we're,

I'm just nostalgic for a time when my neck didn't have to be cracked.

Yes.

It's not the ads, it's the life around the ads that's changed.

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Mike, what did you bring?

Pablo Torre finds out.

I brought a question about a very popular TV show that was posed in our group chat, which was White Lotus, the current season that's out of the Hit HBO series that is now in season three, where, you know, every year the show begins with a crime or a death that gives way to a story that usually takes place in some faraway land surrounding a bunch of people that come together from different lives and are tied to some hotel or resort.

This season's in Thailand right now.

And I think as the recording of this podcast, we are six episodes into this season.

So spoiler alert for anybody that's not all the way caught up.

But is this season of White Lotus actually good?

No.

Ooh.

Like

coming out firing.

It's not.

And I don't think that's the wrong answer, but I guess my question is, why with shows like this, and I feel like a subsidiary of this has been season two of Severance in some some ways which is i feel like there's a lot of societal pressure to just nod and agree that shows made by

are you are you using this topic to get to a hotter take which is that severance season two is not good it's a really good sci-fi show that people are trying to constantly convince me is the most well-thought-out prestige show of all well i feel like this elevates to an even not hotter but maybe more overarching thesis which is a lot of television now isn't good it just looks good and has has good actors.

And I think that is what's happening with, because to bring it back to White Lotus, I both look forward to watching it every week and

enjoy watching it, but also don't think it's a particularly good television show this season.

And I think the fact that those two things are happening at the same time is kind of interesting.

It does feel like watching an architectural digest tour.

Right.

Love those, though.

And it is the same.

I am those clicks, actually.

I fully identify as somebody who wants to get a tour of, yeah, Cape Lanchette's rustic townhome.

I am somebody who wants to see what it's like when

beautiful people live in beautiful places.

I am a simple creature in that regard.

What I sort of chafe against is

how easy it's been to drag out.

plots that could be accomplished in 30 minutes.

That part to me feels like the big triumph of aesthetics over substance.

And I think a lot of this also boils back to like fan culture around these shows because

the Reddits that pop up, the internet theories that surround these shows, and the people that in all walks of life, you know, the idea of being a ballknower is this thing we lionize over everything else.

And if you push back at all on this show, it's, well, it's a slow burn.

You have to appreciate that.

It's like, all right, like, you don't have to insult me like that.

Not every slow burn is well earned in the payoff that you get at the end.

And with this, it does just feel like, hey, this is just the vacation porn this season.

Not to use that last term too loosely, considering the other subplot of this show that's

incest.

That plot doesn't make sense.

Not that it doesn't make sense, but it doesn't feel like it's building towards anything or has any true function in the story.

Again, if you're listening to this, you watch the show, you're got up.

So we don't have to do the spoiler disclosure over and over.

The two brothers having like a sort of, not mildly now, incestuous storyline.

That's not interesting to me.

There's no reason it's there.

I would also argue some of the characters feel like retreads.

Patrick Schwarzenegger's character is one of the two brothers.

They've done that character now three times, which is the a-hole white bro finance dude, right?

The first season, it was excellent.

I thought the first season, I was like, this is great.

I love that actor.

Jake Lacey.

Jake.

He's really good.

Second season, Theo James.

But now it's like, wow.

And I don't, and Patrick Sergenaker is actually pretty good at it.

I just feel like we're doing this again.

The dad, every episode.

The dad is, it's.

Every episode is the same thing with the dad.

Also, dream sequences.

Come on.

I know.

I would say the only storyline that I find kind of interesting because it feels a little bit new is the female friendship storyline, which is very funny.

As much as I resent this show for taking my time, I am still trying to figure out, am I missing something such that my time has not been wasted?

So I've been reading these interviews and it's like, it was intended to be this blob that is Mike White, the creator of the show apparently, who loves going on vacation, encountered three blonde women like this that he called the blob because he couldn't distinguish them except for when they were trashing each other.

And so, yes, this hydra of women and the infighting does feel like something that the show hasn't quite taught.

And it's a story.

It's happening.

It's evolving.

They're, you know, things happen with them.

I'll throw out another theory because I'm thinking about, okay, so we like the show or we watch it.

It's where we find it very smooth because of the aesthetics, because the actors, great actors every season, the season, the actors are good.

This is not the problem with the show.

I would also

argue it almost feels like the show is being made for memes rather than like to tell a story.

Because I think about Parker Posey's character who just like speaks in memes, basically, right?

Walton Goggins, the scene with Sam Rockwell, it was so interesting, like, so like, wow.

Elasian women.

Yeah, the guy, this guy tells a story, but like, why to what end?

It was a great mimetic moment, but then

that's it's over.

I don't know.

That's how I feel watching it.

This whole season has felt like a series of just small encapsulated unrelated that aren't paying off to something else.

Like I was reading,

I think Time magazine did like an article breaking down this season and was talking to experts, especially with the, again, the incest subplot.

They were looking at some psychoanalysis there, but they brought up like Game of Thrones and how that had it, but it was like that gave way to a plot line that had that at the center that went on to go and be incredibly impactful in the dynamic of that relationship was, you know, a little more germane to the times and also just a fantasy show.

Like it still wasn't great to see.

It's not like we're promoting that by any means.

It was still a very uncomfortable part of that show, but they also didn't make it the show's whole personality.

Like this whole season has felt like just kind of dancing around getting to that point.

And the only person now that Jennifer Coolidge is gone, which is the other reason I think this season suffered, is my guy Guy Talk.

He's the only one I have to root for.

Oh, God.

But I, so I would.

I hate him.

Really?

As somebody who should identify with Guy Talk, the security guard working the toll booth at the front of the hotel, I'm just mad.

Yeah, same.

Do you have the...

Okay, I have.

This is my.

He's so incompetent.

Yes, I cannot watch it.

This is the summary of the problem.

This is, I think, where we've now drawn.

a line in the sand between two types of weirdly mike gillick jr is pro-asian inclusion, and we are firmly against.

I would say the line of the sand, on one side, we have a true empath in Gojo, which

takes us to the beginning when we were talking about why he's the ultimate plus one.

I feel bad for people who have things that are done or who are victims or whether or are being hurt in some way in these shows.

But someone who keeps hurting themselves is, I have a lot of trouble with as a viewer, generally.

My husband clocked this like one episode in.

He's like, you're going going to hate this guy, huh?

Cause I just cannot handle watching people who are incompetent at their jobs over and over and over to the point where, like, when he actually found the gun in the last episode.

Conveniently, just in the first drawer he opened.

I was truly shocked.

That was a bigger upset to me than the incest.

But that's actually getting something right for once.

But that made me,

that made me even matter.

It made me even more furious.

It's like, wait a minute, you're going to undo this whole plot line about the missing gun by him randomly opening the first drawer with no detective ability at all?

Like, why do we just spend this whole?

So the guy talk thing, and I do appreciate, I do appreciate that this character's name is also the subject of the previous topic on this episode.

Yeah.

Guy talk, guy, talk's whole deal is that

he is Bambi.

He is prey.

He is the guy who is weak and defenseless, but also the security guard.

And if that had any corresponding

connective tissue to a larger plot,

maybe I'll be proven wrong in the finale.

But currently, it just feels like a diversion.

And it's also insulting because something I have been feeling about this show to win back our demographic,

it's set in Thailand and the engagement with Thailand, not that I want to dive into the culture in an earnest way.

I know these are all assholes who are rich and tourists.

There are characters here that I believe could have could have engaged more with the premise of what it means to be an absurd white Western tourist who is an Aaron Rodgers adjacent character.

And even like Walton Goggins, who's like the guy who's going to Bangkok and meeting the Sam Rockwell character, who is the closest thing to this thing I'm describing, it just feels like it feels like he's not really engaging with the setting.

I mean, the

one with the teeth is normal and is definitely supposed to be the the most likable person and she is and she's a the actress is like riveting and it's super funny and a star but it makes no sense why she wants to be with walton goggins and they never sell you on it not for a single

it treats her like and she's just calls him her soulmate and it's another reason that the show is driving me crazy this year Does it say something when you said the one with the teeth?

I thought you were talking about the other one with the teeth.

And now I'm like, oh, you meant the other one with the teeth.

I believe that

the woman who dates Greg, the guy with the yacht, yacht-Canadian woman, also has teeth.

I mean, come on.

That's like

saying, like, Steph Curry is tall compared to Kevin Duran.

Like,

the British woman's going teeth first in every scene.

Different tax bracket.

I mean, she's great.

She is really funny and good actress.

But that's the thing.

They're all really good actors.

They're all really funny.

They all have good lines.

But it's just the underlying stories are not.

It feels like a script story problem that they said, hey, we'll, I mean, it's, by the way, if you're a Mike White and you're like, okay, I made one fantastic season of a show that also enabled me to go on location.

And what they do is they rent out the entire location.

Yeah.

So just as a matter of shooting, I presume.

It's so fun.

They're just like, let's be with our friends.

Let's get our.

Let's have a summer camp in which we produce a prestige show at the end.

That's cool.

What?

I got to get a hot for my brother.

Sure, that's worth it.

I'll be that character.

To answer your question, Carrie Kuhn's character is who I am on vacation, where I get just unnecessarily white girl wasted.

Yeah.

We've seen, we've both experienced Hammered Mina, I think.

Oh, yeah.

Well, and I am the same way on vacation.

Like, it is, it is the chance to pop the tarp off a little bit and

have at it.

So I can, I can identify with that.

I just had this realization when you were talking about Mike White, too.

Is he the Mike McCarthy then of show creators

where an immediate success has given way to an offense that basically demands that the players go out there and continue to make incredible plays while not really making a ton for them?

He is absolutely Mike McCarthy because he also gets massages at work.

I forgot about that.

Oh, man, that's right.

What a detail.

Yeah.

Great poll.

Yeah.

It's like you do this for work.

I hate massages, by the way.

Hate them.

I could not feel more differently.

So uncomfortable the whole time.

Unshocking revelation from you, but and then they're always like, what is the equivalent of this where you're like there to get your back work done or whatever.

And then they're like, you're so tense.

And I'm like, you're making me more tense by pointing out how tense I am.

I hate that.

My last thought about White Lotus is that all I want from a show is for it to care about its story as much as the subreddit does.

Oh my God.

Just match the energy.

If people are going to care about you as if you're writing the goddamn Da Vinci code, then like just try to meet the standard or signal that you're not.

I heard a screech in episode two that paired with the painting and there's a corner of it where you see a monkey pointing a finger.

finger and what if that finger turns out to be the gun and i've heard the monkey has the gun theory as well oh that's my reddit voice i don't i don't think i want any show to care as much as the reddit does i'd like you to care as much as twitter does if you stop there because the reddit you get into you know ted lasso had a

subreddit thread that was just a nightmarish group of people and every subreddit does turn on the thing it loves yeah 100 on podcasting as well 100 do you have a subreddit i do but it's sparsely populated and I have never acknowledged that it exists until now.

I have one that's just like

that's just

waiting to look at this photo of your eyeball.

Show us the rods.

Mina's showing rods.

She's showing rods on the chat for free.

Better rods than cones.

At the end of every episode of Pablo Tori Finds Out, a show about finding out stuff, we talk about what we found out.

Mike Olegs Jr., would you like to go first?

I found out that we can actually put a price on a name, and for George Foreman's, it was $148 million.

I found out that male TikTok sounds like exactly the same nightmarish hellhole that female TikTok is.

Glad we're

right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I found out that part of me believes that

a show with a character named Guy Talk

could have been a guy talk.

Could have been a guy talk.

Shorter, punchier, didn't need to waste all of our time.

Also, that when we think about how you monetize what it means to like put your name on something,

I do want to pour some out for Natalie.

Natalie.

Natalie Foreman, wherever you are,

just know that I

think you deserve

your own legacy.

What if her nickname is Georgina?

Or just straight up George?

George.

That'd be a great bit.

Just the Foreman family,

an all-Foreman family episode of The White Lotus.

Pablo Torre Finds Out is produced by Walter Averoma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Dawig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rob McRae, Rachel Miller-Howard, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, Chris Tuminello, and Juliet Warren.

Our studio engineering by RG Systems, our sound design by NGW Post, our theme song, as always, is by John Bravo.

We will talk to you next time.