Share & Tell & Celebrate with Mina Kimes and David Dennis Jr.

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out.

I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is.

Today is my birthday, right after this ad.

You're listening to DraftKings Network.

Were you guys big library kids growing up?

Yeah.

I mean, like living, growing up in New York, Pablo, where public libraries, did you guys go to use them a lot?

Yeah, we had one right between my house and our school, and

it's the same.

I mean, unfortunately, it is exactly the same in 2024 as it was in 1990.

I went back and brought Violet there, and I was like, these are the same books.

Like, this is my name.

I checked this out.

30 years ago.

We had a public library across the street from my middle school.

So that ended up being like the community.

So I was like the after school care for middle school kids.

You just go there and wait for your parents to come pick you up.

And it was like packed.

Like all, everybody wanted to go to that.

Like people would miss the bus on purpose so they can go to that library and just hang out.

Like that was, that was a thing.

Now the library is closed.

So that's just, that's how things roll.

I feel like there was generally like a turning point when

personal computing became a thing, right?

Because when we grew up, libraries either didn't have computers or they were like very like computers were kind of new and it was like iMacs, like one iMac, like one purple iMac.

Everybody had to wait in line to use.

Now, I feel like though, but once libraries became a place where like people who didn't have computers, that's just where they went to use the computer, the whole dynamic of the library changed.

It became a little bit more

utilitarian, or maybe like a creepy old guy looking at porn.

Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say, libraries went from a place where you could like check out, you know, the stinky cheeseman and other adventures as a kid to the place where now you see adults just straight up watching pornography.

When I was a kid, my parents used to punish me by taking away library time.

Like, maybe like, because I, because going to the library was that I looked forward to all week.

And if I like, you know, didn't finish my dinner or something or whatever, they'd be like, no library trip this week.

And that was,

yeah, I was a nerd.

Yeah, it just, just, just just the most

predictable origin story.

I have tried to not withhold anything.

I try like to not.

So I try to go, I'm anti-punishment, which is what I've been trying to do.

Like, I've been trying to go anti-punishment.

And like my son's older.

He's in middle school.

So like, there's like a different sort of like thing there where I'm trying to like talk to him about like larger

topics about like prison abolition and policing and things like that.

And what does punishment mean?

So like he's been like, Am I, does this mean I'm getting punished?

And I'd be like, I don't believe you should get punished.

I don't want to withhold a thing from you.

I'm just laughing, visualizing Nino biting me because that's his new thing.

He's got teeth now.

And me being like, I really don't like when you do that, but I also want to teach you about prison abolition right now.

Never too early.

Never too early to restorative justice here.

Never too early to give us a Mangela Davis like right under the right under the pillowcase and see what happens, you know?

i want to stick around in the area of of our childhoods because

david you brought a story today that is relevant to all of our adulthoods also not all so what you got so

oh okay all right spicy all right boys boys

Yeah, I know.

I know.

The patriarchy.

So GQ has a story about how dudes are weird about birthdays, right?

And reading the article was interesting.

It was also sort of like humbling because I was like, thought I had like a unique story and that I was weird about my birthday.

I was like, yeah, it's like a thing.

But then it's like, no, I'm a typical guy.

All the guys are weird about their birthdays.

I thought, you know, like, it is just like, it was interesting because she she like interviewed some of the people who were you know on the staff and stuff like that and talked about them and guys just are weird about their birthdays and um everybody had different excuse or different reasons like i have my reasons i felt like as a kid of like a divorce i thought it was just weird to be like it was difficult right to be like you got people who may not necessarily always like each other that you got to put them in the same room and i felt a lot of pressure and i was kind of like don't like birthdays i didn't put my birthday on facebook for years like that was the thing.

Like people didn't even know when the birthday was.

I would try to go about it like a normal thing.

And I was just like, yeah, I'm not a birthday person.

But then like all guys are like that.

And I am so non-unique and very typical and very like every other guy.

Yo, so, okay.

So I'll talk about myself in a second, but I have a friend, my friend Pietro, one of my childhood friends.

And he.

to prove this point, actually, fellow dude, took his birthday off of Facebook and was like, I'm going to find out who's really like my friend.

And let me tell you what happened.

Nobody.

He got zero happy birthdays on his wall.

Nobody knew.

Everybody, everybody was like, this is a you problem.

And I realize it's also a me problem because I'm one of these people.

It is this way.

Like you amongst your coworkers and friends, like, do they know how little you want to celebrate your own birthday?

And do they know

that you're weird about it, Nina?

And people in this article are like, like, I have background character syndrome, blah, blah, blah.

And I'm like, but I have this and I'm a guy with my name in my show.

And so I am also this way.

Let me jump in here and ask, because this is the, the article is about, the reason I said not all of us is because this article is like men are weird about celebrating birthday.

And I think that is largely true.

Honestly, like based on like the men and women in my life, women seem to be more likely to have birthday parties, to do birthday weeks, which is

something I personally judge.

I'm like, come on, we're adults.

You don't have to like, you don't the whole like birthday week celebrate.

That's not for me, but whatever.

Like shark week, but

and men don't do that.

And I think that's kind of true.

So I think what I want to ask you guys, because to get at the heart of why this might be, is it that you don't actually like being celebrated, having the party, getting attention, or do you not like being the person who initiates that?

Because a lot of the quotes in this article were men feeling embarrassed about asking other people to celebrate them or like being seen as deliberately seeking attention or participating in this tradition.

And I can't tell if it's more about the embarrassment or self-consciousness of being like the initiator or you just don't like being the center of attention because we know Pablo loves being the center of attention, as he established.

It's not necessarily embarrassment.

Like

asking people to show up for your birthday is a very vulnerable thing to do, right?

Yeah.

And you have to be really in touch with your emotions to set up a birthday party.

Like, have you ever, like, I've been thinking about like, have you ever talked talked to a woman about a birthday party that went wrong?

And like the, the things that they express in those, like they set them up and they say, my friend didn't show up.

And it made me sad and I was upset.

And I had to talk to them and we had to have a conversation about how they were acting crazy at my party.

And we had to do these things that were like emotion, like they're, that are like emotionally vulnerable and emotionally like connected, right?

And men, like, I don't want to, not me, but like men do not want to be in a position like, hey, can you show up at my party?

Oh, you didn't show up.

Now I'm disappointed.

Now I got to like express these feelings that men are like, like, we don't, we like traditionally say that we do not want to do these things.

Like, I don't want to put myself in a position to say, please come.

Oh, you can't come.

Now I'm sad.

Why couldn't you make it?

And like, we have to like talk emotionally to each other.

There is something about, I mean, again, I cop to this.

It's obvious if you've ever listened to me.

I want to be liked, but I hate more than anything saying, please like me.

And that request is the embodiment to me of like, hey, guys, it's my birthday.

Come celebrate me.

You sort of want a layer, a plausible deniability.

It reminds me of how sometimes I'll see this on Twitter as well, where it's like, you'll see a guy invariably like quote tweet someone telling them happy birthday.

and saying thank you so that they're not saying, hey, everybody, it's my birthday.

It's like they just need one degree away from the actual act that we want, which is to be celebrated actually, despite all of it.

And so it's stressful.

I, Mina, I, on high noon, I, there was a day where I just didn't tell anybody.

And then at the end of the day, someone realized it.

And I then was just like,

it was worse, admittedly.

Like, it's, it's not the ideal way to handle it is to wait for someone to be like, oh, it's your birthday.

uh we should have done something and you'd be like because then when they start doing it you start eating it up you know you're just kind of like yeah it is my birthday.

Like, yeah, it's a crazy, let's have a cake, let's go get drinks.

And it's like, you could have done this two weeks ago and we would have, we would have been there for you.

So, I do like celebrating my birthday, but um, the reason I like it is not because I

like being feted.

And it's not that I don't like being praised, like all of us, I do, but like, you know, I'm not gonna like being praised for just existing is like kind of meaningless to me.

Um,

You know, so I don't draw like a lot of pleasure out of that.

However, I do like to have birthday parties.

I think you've been to some of them, Pablo, because one of my great pleasures in life is when my friends become friends.

And I just, that, I love that feeling.

I don't know why.

It's like one of my favorite feelings in the world is just watching two people, like maybe in different, someone I work with and somebody I went to college with, and they're talking at a party.

And then a few weeks later, I hear they got coffee.

Oh, yeah.

That's such a rush.

Yeah, that's a rush.

It's like a rush.

It's a rush.

And so, yeah.

Can I confess something about that specifically?

I

don't have that.

And I think it's because I'm afraid of them not getting along.

Like, I am so deeply siloed, my friend groups.

And this is another reason why I'm terrible at throwing my own birthday party is I don't actually want to have everybody from the different corners of my life encounter each other because I just love it the way it is.

And I'm kind of selfishly like, what if it what if what if this doesn't work and i'm actually fearful of it so i have a story that kind of ties this a little bit all together is that like so um as you know you may or may not know i i was on nba today for the first time like a month or so ago i was out in la me and me and hung out it was great um and so I was really happy about it.

I was like really ecstatic about it.

Like it was cool.

They loved me.

It was cool.

And I just told my partner, I was like, hey, can we like, I want to celebrate.

I want to celebrate this like really cool thing.

Can we like have a get together?

Like, can we just get some friends and like make it happen?

And so she like took, took the lead and like invited people over and had, and but like even to Pablo's point, when I invited my friends, I was like, hey, you know, my girlfriend wants to do something for me.

You know what I'm saying?

It wasn't like, hey, like, guys, pull up.

I was like, she wants to do something for me.

So like, come on and hang out.

But like, when we did it, it was my friends and her friends.

And like.

like interconnected people were like hanging out and like making plans.

And I was like, this is like orgasmic.

Like this is the best thing to ever have.

And it sort of became like a gateway drug to me wanting to have a birthday party.

Like I really want to have my first like adult birthday party with a lot of people like coming together and hanging out because they were at this thing, they were celebrating me.

Like they were there and everybody who showed up was like, congratulations.

And it felt really, really good.

And like, I must admit that I needed somebody to like hold my hand through the process.

So this sent me down memory lane, right?

Because it occurred to me as I was grappling with my own neuroses about this that I didn't used to be this way.

Like,

I want us all to remember what our like favorite birthdays were like as kids.

Um, now all of us, three of us as parents, um, because

I did recently find this video.

Neil, darling, so you can be sick.

Is that a new place?

Hi.

Happy birthday!

There's my daddy.

This is Bop Pee B's bursting.

And I give him Kevin's babe.

How old are you?

We had turkey for every holiday and birthday because we thought that was that's what Americans did, I think.

Which one is your favorite?

Chai Joe.

Ooh, starting

baseball.

No birthdays quickly without some G.I.

Joe war propaganda.

Get your familiar to wash everything down.

I watched that and I was like, this was my favorite day of the year once upon a time.

Also, as a kid, though, you don't have control, like you don't have control over the guests, you know?

Like, you are not asking, you still have that like degree of separation.

Like, your parents did it.

And if the kid doesn't show up, it's because their mom or dad had like church or like practice or something that they had to go to.

Like, you're still not in that vote.

You're just there receiving everything and enjoying Chuck E.

Cheese and like that there's stuff to do, but there's, you're not putting that sort of vulnerability that you will, that you will as an adult.

It was a big deal at school, too, which

that, you know, like everybody was nice to you and the teacher did give you a little moment when it was your birthday during, like I used to be disappointed when my birthday was not during the school week for that reason.

And if I have birthday trauma, it's because my birthday is September 8th, which was typically like the first week of school or something.

And because I moved around a lot as a kid,

often I didn't have friends by that time.

So a lot of, like a lot of times growing up, I wasn't able to have like a big birthday party because I didn't know many people.

It was really sad.

So how do you approach, Mina, how are you approaching Nino's birthday, right?

His birthday is coming up is Saturday.

Or actually, no, pardon me.

The party is Saturday.

Birthday is Friday.

So actually, the day this comes out is my son's first birthday, which is a big deal in Korean culture.

So is the 100 Days, which we didn't celebrate.

But it's called the Dole.

And you have a big party and then you have a ceremony.

I did this as a kid.

I sent you guys a photo.

An adorable photo.

Let's not bury it.

We're going to show you.

We're going to show you.

We're going to show you a little baby humbook

and we'll see how long Nino lasts in his.

I've got the overunder in about five minutes.

And

well, it it was hard to find one big enough for him.

Then the ceremony is called a dole jobby.

So the kid sits in front of a bunch of objects and then whatever you crawl to and grab like foretells your destiny.

You can obviously, as because parents, you get to choose the objects.

You could stack the deck if you want.

Wait, what do you, what do you had a lot of conversations about this where basically at first we were just coming up with bits.

Like we were like, podcaster Mike.

And then I was like, I don't want to like in 10, 20 years, tell my son that we did a bit on his birthday.

So we ended up going with pretty straightforward ones, like a gavel, a paintbrush, a stethoscope, whatever.

Stethoscope, by the way, if you want to automatically make a group of Korean parents lose their minds, watch a baby crawl towards a stethoscope.

But

yeah, so we're going to do that.

And I'll let you guys know what the results are.

At the end of this segment, I should probably reveal that this episode is out on Friday, and today is my birthday.

And neither of you guys brought that.

I didn't see it on Facebook, so there's that.

You know what I'm saying?

So I don't know, I didn't know what to do.

You know why I don't like acknowledging your birthday, Pablo.

I'm just waiting.

He's two weeks younger than me, David.

Oh, oh, man.

Nothing is more cosmically frustrating for Mina than knowing that she had a head start on achieving.

And that

explains so much.

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So the story that I brought is a bit off the board.

It is a sports story.

It is in the realm of just like online, I would say, maladaptive behaviors, because I don't know if you guys really follow like ultra-marathon running.

It is one of the most ridiculous sports that is only a sport insofar as people are doing athletic things.

It is different in the degree of everything else in my mind, because these are races that involve you running between 31 and 3,100 miles.

Okay, so this is what an ultra marathon is as a matter of distance.

And there's been a controversy in the world of ultra-marathon running that concerns Wikipedia.

And I want to explain this for people who don't give a shit about distance running because you don't need to to appreciate this story.

All you need to know is that one of the greatest ultra-marathon runners has been found guilty via online internet sleuthing of editing her own Wikipedia page and the Wikipedia pages of her, it seems, foremost competitors and rivals.

And so one of the great statements that keeps recurring in the reporting on this stuff is that, and I want to get her name here.

Camille Heron,

objectively a great ultra-marathoner, has repeatedly, along with her husband, it seems, removed statements like, quote, widely regarded as one of the best trail runners ever, end quote, from her opponents' Wikipedia pages.

Killian Journay and Courtney DeWalter, I believe, is their names.

And the justification was that she was, quote unquote, removing puffery.

And so she was just sort of like editing Wikipedia Wikipedia for some sort of like larger, more noble truth fact-finding mission.

Except she also then added that same thing, one of the greatest trail runners ever to her own page and just kept on doing this and doing this and doing this.

And it just reminded me that Wikipedia, when it comes to places where

the burner account feels...

feels like a cousin of this story, but Wikipedia to me also feels far more significant because we've also gotten to a point where Wikipedia is just the encyclopedia.

I I was thinking about burners as well, right?

This is a classic burner story, but I think the Wikipedia aspect does make it a little bit unique and something that Pablo and I have talked about, David, a lot on the show is how the internet, Google is becoming increasingly messy, unusable, cluttered with, you know, it's impossible to find any information, social media also as well, obviously.

And I think Wikipedia is like one of the few things that people trust, one of the few places where if you're trying to find an answer to a question, I know personally, personally, like I, I am, if I'm trying to find a basic answer to a question, nine times out of 10, I am clicking on the Wikipedia.

And that has only amplified as the insidification as a term, right, of the internet has grown.

So I think it is

like, there's more importance to it than ever, perhaps.

And it, like, when you, when you're doing that, when you're looking for information in Wikipedia and you come across a page that is like weirdly has an opinion or doesn't seem like it's been edited that much or something's off.

It really jumps out because of that because it has more credibility than most places on the internet right now.

My favorite part of the story was that they were like, we had to stop her from using words like warrior or whatever, like these like adjectives for herself.

Like it was really, oh, God.

Yes, hold on.

Yes.

Using language like legendary, prestigious, and quote-unquote steely toughness.

is not the kind of neutral tone that is allowed in writing here, according to a Wikipedia moderator who was like policing this, 2024 is the year of the hater.

Like Kendrick Lamar said that he was the biggest hater, and that is incorrect because this is hating on a whole nother level to go change somebody's Wikipedia page, which is a step above a burner account.

Because a burner account is just some dwee being like, no, like, you know, like Kevin Durant being like, no, I'm better than Steph Curry, blah, blah, blah.

Like, like with some random account.

This is somebody changing what we as societally have considered like the record of fact, right?

The record, like, you know, it's not, you know, congressional record of fact, but we societally think of it as that.

And you are changing that to, you know, down your enemy or your opponent.

Yeah, no, it's to me at this point, it's the number one SEO result, if you Google someone's name typically is their Wikipedia page.

And so when Camille Heron and her husband have reportedly made more than 300 contributions to pages on Wikipedia since 2017,

and more than half of them are entirely embellishments to her own page, it's something that

the Wikipedia moderating sort of squad, like it's, it's, it's, yeah, thank God they exist.

You know, like this volunteer army of people who are there to police these micro edits.

It's just, part of me wonders, Mina, like the inshittification of Wikipedia.

has been prevented because it is deliberately like this nonprofit enterprise with volunteer force.

Like it's like the pro publica of like internet sites at this point, weirdly,

despite also being a place that of course used to be, it used to be the exact sort of nightmare example for teachers being like, don't look this up on like, that's not what you, but now it's somehow like the most trusted authorities.

I don't know if that's.

I feel like that's more about the direction the internet is going in and less about like Wikipedia getting better per se,

but it does make it more important.

Right.

Right.

That's just what I was just thinking reading this.

Like, I don't know what your guys' experience with your own Wikipedia pages are,

but, you know, I find that like if I'm doing like an engagement, speaking engagement, or like if I'm interviewing someone, they will reference things from, like, it's clearly the thing people use to get information about me.

And so, you know, I look at my own,

I sorry, I looked at my own.

ahead of doing this and it's a little weird.

Like some of the stuff that's highlighted is kind of odd and like it feels a little dated.

It's true right now, but

it's not how I would write my own bio.

This was an athlete, a public figure, trying to write her own biography.

Yeah.

And I get it insofar as I look at my Wikipedia page right now and the photo of me is not one that I would choose.

It's from like a weird like sponsored content thing I did with AT ⁇ T.

And I'm like, I'm wearing like an AT ⁇ T shirt with an AT ⁇ T microphone.

I'm like, can we not have this as like the portrait of my journalism, please?

But you don't get to choose that.

And I don't think they would allow allow me to edit it, lest I be flagged by, again, one of the various people who, by the way, this person's husband, the Ultra Marathoner's husband has claimed were the cyber bullies.

But in fact, when you click into this, are just like, again, the moderators who are trying to make sure that anything resembling truth is still

part of this enterprise.

Journalism is

increasingly like harder to do or harder to do.

And there's, you know, fewer careers in it.

And like, a lot of documentaries are made by the subjects themselves, and people seem to be more in control of their own images than ever, perhaps.

And I think something like Wikipedia, where you don't have control if it's done properly, must be very frustrating to someone like this who obviously tried to manipulate that process and got caught, right?

Like, it is like one of the very few things that, like,

you can't really get away with lying about yourself now in

today's, like, where, because social media has like taken such a vast, also like it has overtaken a lot of the internet in terms of like the stories that people tell about themselves.

This is like one of the very few places that you can't manipulate in the same way.

Yeah.

And for, you know, one thing that you know, that I'm sure we all know of like talking to people who are great at something is like this like unified obsession with these things, like obsession with narratives that you can't control, like obsession with like little slights.

And Wikipedia is where those things live a lot of times because they state the facts about things that happen and like you don't feel like you have a way to control that.

And she tried to find one, like not only hers, but like the other competitors.

But also, as we're talking, I don't have a Wikipedia page, which is kind of sweet.

I just looked, I don't have a Wikipedia page.

It's nice.

My dad,

who famously

used his influence to make me a DEI hire at ESPN, he does have

notable civil, actual civil rights activists slash Apple

baby creator.

Yes, me and uh Bernice Schanner co-hosting PTI next week.

Everybody, tune in.

So, um, yeah, he has a Wikipedia page, which is really like, I, it's things that I did not, had not heard of about him.

And I'd like to think about like, um, you know,

these things that you want to consider private a lot of times are out there for people.

Like, it's a, it's a, it could be a terrifying place on the internet to have a a Wikipedia page.

Like, I, like, when Mina was like, we all have one, I was like, I hope I don't.

Cause like, I do not, I as am terrified of like things about me being on the internet.

Do you guys have Wikipedia pages that you like that are your favorites?

Like, uh, anything like a person, like a concept.

I've sent this to, I'm in a group chat with Pablo.

The list of nicknames used by Donald Trump is an incredible Wikipedia page.

Oh, God.

Because there's so many nicknames we don't know about, like involving like leaders in other countries, like just really it's so long i'm scrolling down right now there's so many nicknames it is totally the case to mina's point that like the bar has fallen for our authorities on truth and so pages that for example remind us that jeff bezos' nickname from donald trump was jeff bozo uh yeah those those those become far more

rod rosenstein mr peepers parenthetical denied by trump

what

um another great wikipedia page that uh producer Rob just threw my way that I do think is,

again, a historical document that should be revered is just a list of sandwiches.

And it's just a list of every sandwich.

It is American sub, bacon, bacon, egg, and cheese, bagel toast, baked bean, bon me, barbecue, barros harpa, barros bucco,

with pictures, beef on wek,

bifana, b-l-t, bocadillo, bocit, bologna, bondiola, bosna, Bosna, Bratwurst, Breakfast Roll, Breakfast, Bruget, Croquet, Netherlands.

The beef sandwich says it originated in Boston.

Oh, I don't know.

I don't know about that.

Can I just.

Hot dog is listed on Wikipedia

for sandwiches.

Yes, I also found a sandwich that looks like it was a nickname that Donald Trump gave to somebody because there's a sandwich from Jacksonville, Florida that is lunch meats and Italian dressings in a pita that is simply called Camel Rider.

I'm like, yeah, that sounds, that sounds fraught.

When it comes to talking, by the way,

the other part of this story that I do want to acknowledge, though, is the detective work.

Like, I don't know if you guys have had somebody talk you that resulted in some sort of way down a rabbit hole the other day.

What am I doing?

Yeah, sorry.

So,

my story also goes back to high school.

So, there was,

this is the most intelligent story you may ever tell about myself.

There was a message board.

There was a message board called lddebate.org.

So I did Lincoln Douglas debate in high school.

I was a captain of our speech and debate team.

And there is a message board called lddebate.org.

And there was a user whose posting name was John Galt.

Okay.

Yeah, so he's already horrible.

That is just for if you know, you know that this guy

is an Ayn Rand-inspired

poster

would post specific things about how me specifically, Pablo Torre on this message board, like was overrated, just like classic, just like talk.

And

weeks later, right,

we executed a sting operation.

We were able to trace the IP

to a suspect and we sent an email with the this is my friend Mike McTiernan who did this.

God bless Mike McTiernan.

I have not said your name in years, but you did this.

Brilliant.

He sent a,

he should, he might.

He sent an email with a link in.

And if you click the link, your IP address registered.

And so we sent it to the person we thought.

And we matched the IP address.

And it was revealed that John Galt was one of my fing teammates.

I'm not going to say his name now because I do believe he works in the actual federal government,

which is a thing that I'm just going to dangle over the prospects of a future political career.

I'm just going to say.

Did you confront him?

I'm not going to say who it is.

I'm just saying that

he was confronted.

He was confronted.

Not by me because I'm very non-confrontational, but he was confronted by others.

And yeah, it was him.

It was him.

And things radically changed in our locker room.

you had your own locker room source that went to Shams

from the message board.

Unbelievable.

It was the call was coming inside the house.

That's wow.

Producer Rob is telling me that there's

come on.

Should you read that for the podcast audience, Pablo?

Since you're the superior podcaster, I would think you would understand how this format works.

Pablo C.

Santori, born September 27, 1985, is a superior podcast at Amita Times, despite being two weeks younger.

Who would write such a thing?

Who would ever write such a thing?

Can somebody edit that Pablo's entry on my behalf and say that Pablo Torre is a superior podcaster to Mina Kimes?

Because unlike Mina Kimes, that's his main job, perhaps.

Oh,

hello.

Not just part of his job.

Wikipedia is tearing this family apart.

Speaking of locker rooms being ripped apart,

UNLV, if you're listening to this, you probably are familiar with the story because it was one of the biggest stories in sports this week.

Matthew Sluka, who was the quarterback, was being the operative bird here of University of Nevada, Las Vegas, a team that was 3-0, very surprising.

They beat Kansas.

They were

being listed as a possible group of five playoff contender with the expanded playoffs.

Very exciting there.

Announced that he is leaving after the 3-0 start.

And so

as this came out, information, competing information rather, came out very quickly.

First, the news, he's leaving.

And,

you know, it's, oh my gosh.

And I think there was a report from someone, maybe like a local news reporter saying he was offered more money elsewhere.

And immediately people were like, this is NIL.

It's a mercenary and it's an open market and whatever.

Then his side comes out.

I think it was his dad or someone maybe talking to Pete Thamble, but there were immediately reports saying, well, he wasn't given the money he was promised by.

And we soon learned, an assistant coach for the team, $100,000.

They said, we'll give you $3,000 a game or a quarter or a month or rather.

And he hasn't even gotten mad.

And then

UNLV came out again and said, no, no, no, no, no.

Like he tried to, basically, they insinuated that he tried to extort them.

And the whole thing is a mess.

Point is, he is gone.

Consensus view on this is this was inevitable, right?

Like in this new world of NIL where there are no rules and there's no, by the way, notably, this was a handshake deal.

that he is saying happened.

And

I don't believe anyone at UNLV has has denied that the assistant coach did, like outright denied that anything has happened.

They've just said there was no like above the board deal, which doesn't, unless I'm mistaken, deny that there was a handshake deal.

Anyways, but consensus here, most people are reacting to this saying, wow, this is just how things are right now, right?

Because there's no oversight, there's handshake deals.

There was a great tweet from, I think it was Trill Withers who tweeted this, that like, this is like a drug, drug deal, because you're like, if it goes south, what are you going to do?

Like, there's no, there's no regulators.

Um, so I think that's true, right?

Like, it's very obvious here that the biggest villains, if you are, are is the NCAA because they have created this world where things like this happen.

But my question for you guys is: like, do you think that, A, this is just going to keep happening?

Um, is there anything about this that you do find surprising?

And

like, you know, like Sluka himself, like,

I mean,

I feel really bad for him in all of this.

I, you know, I just feel like he's like kind of the biggest loser here in some way.

I mean, obviously his teammates are, and that's the fault of the program potentially.

But

I feel really, really like just crappy about how all this shook out.

And like, it just feels like,

yeah, like if it does keep happening, we're going to see more really bummer stories like this.

So a couple of things, David, that I found interesting about this was that, of course, I had no idea who Matthew Sluka was before this story.

And I think that is going to be his legacy in a way that Mina is sort of alluding to, which is that now we know nationally that kids, that players, college players will actually do this.

You know, like with this sort of level of explicit, this is why.

This is the case that I'm trying to make.

This is how I got fed over.

And this is why, despite being the quarterback of a 3-0 team, I'm going to redshirt redshirt myself and take myself out of the season and demand out.

And so the other bit of context here, I think that's worthwhile and interesting, because I never really thought about this redshirting rules, is that the rule is if you play four or fewer games, you can be redshirted.

And of course, that means that you are sidelined for the rest of the season, but you preserve your eligibility such that you continue to play college football as if this season never happened.

And typically, of course, this was what coaches would do to players.

Like players wouldn't sort of do do this to themselves in this way until the rules around NIL and transferring the transfer portal specifically changed.

And so now we have a kid who has done this.

And it's just now a weapon that, again, is being used in a different direction in ways that the people who made the rules did not foresee.

And of course, this is because there are no contracts.

This is not a job, despite being a job.

There is no regulator, as Mina said, despite needing regulation.

And so you have battles about leverage.

And this is this device, redshirting is now a new or it's an old, new mechanism.

What Sluka did obviously puts UNLV in a bind, but UNLV and these schools are more, you know, they have more at their disposal to combat this going forward.

Like even though he put them in a bind, they have a good backup quarterback.

They got this guy from Jackson State who's a decent backup quarterback.

And so what what i'm fearing is that we're going to have the last week in september first week in october be like the game of chicken weekend right where it's like we're going into week four and the school says no because because this is not this was not sluka obviously this was not sluka's first act like first movie like he didn't jump from like where's my money to i'm out of here like there was a lot of steps in the way And we're going to look at his year and his, the rest of his career, right?

And say, hey, maybe this dude never gets picked up.

maybe he doesn't play anywhere else maybe this is like just a bad end to his career and next year going into week four you have these schools staring down their quarterback or staring down the running back who's looking at maybe their last chance at two hundred thousand dollars a year before they go into the job market or maybe even the chance to get drafted and they say all right i'm not giving you your money what are you going to do about it or a school or a player being like i'm out of here what are you going to do about it and we're playing this game of chicken up until week four on saturdays and it's adding another another layer of wild, wild west-ness to a wild, wild west.

What I find so jarring about this, other than everything we've discussed, is the

like relatively low amount of money we're talking about here, right?

I think that's what's so

where UNLV, like you look at them and you're like, really, guys, right?

Because I'm like David said, I assume there was some back and forth.

First of all, even $100,000 for a quarterback, you know, yes, they're not in the SEC or whatever, but that is, I'm telling you, like the RI on that is clearly worth it if your team is going to be contending the amount of excitement.

I mean, you know, the amount, let's just put it this way, the amount of money that the quarterbacks who play for the big programs are getting makes that look like absolute chump change right now.

Where it becomes

strategically more complex is if a quarterback is like, you paid me like $300,000 and we're winning a lot.

I actually want $500,000.

I don't know, maybe like in that hypothetical, then you would actually have some reasonable push back and forth.

But this to me, like they, UNLV screwed up big time because this is not a lot of money and they absolutely lost.

And maybe, you know, their backup quarterback who David said is good, maybe comes out and he keeps this thing going and maybe they do end up winning here.

But I feel like this was such an unnecessary risk on this part, given the amount of money at stake.

Look, I think you're right, Mina, to say like the bottom line in all of this is if you want to solve this problem, the reason why we're struggling with this, the reason why we don't think there's an end to this is because there is no paperwork, because these are not contracts.

And so to get to contracts, you got to collectively bargain, which means they're employees, which means that, okay, did you guys really want to do this?

But to me,

I get, David, I do get why if you're a college coach, you are worried.

Like, oh, wait a minute, is my player now going to ask for a mid-season raise and then stop playing?

because

he outperformed his contract?

Because there is no contract.

And that, I get it.

That sucks.

It objectively does suck for that team.

I think if there's anything that we know about these colleges, coaches, and these programs is that they are going to spend the like energy that they could have spent just paying players, figuring out ways to screw players over.

Right.

So like what I think is most likely to happen, like Sluka's leverage now is gone.

Like he redshirted this year.

You're not going to redshirt again.

Like you have a freshman.

You're not going to redshirt.

Like, you know what I'm saying?

Like you could have, we can do this thing on week four of one year and you say you're redshirting.

Next year, what are you going to do?

Right.

You got to come back to, you know, the altar of college football at some point because you have to play eventually.

Right.

And so.

Yeah, I think what's most likely to happen is a coach.

No, a coach is not going to want to lose his star quarterback or his star running back.

But what I imagine they're going to do is probably try to load up with two star quarterbacks or two star running backs so that you could get this guy.

Like this guy wants to leave i will get a marginally like a little bit worse guy behind him and see what i can do in terms of replacing him and make them feel replaced like the easiest solution is just pay like nina said pay the guy a hundred thousand dollars but it's so baked into college football to like screw players over that that doesn't even come into their mind to just like give a kid what he wants it's like i'm going to find a way to make his life worse Well, good luck finding two good college quarterbacks.

I'll just say that.

It's really hard out there.

Let me ask you guys a question because, you know, we all agree, right?

Like this is, I think we're all

unless this whole you know he is dramatically lying and the deal was never offered i think we all side with the player here we all agree that the ncoua is true villain of the story yada yada yada where would be the tipping point where you don't side with the player right because pablo introduced the concept of like the slippery slope that um the coaches and the pro like what would be a point where if a player was like nah i'm good i'm out where you'd actually look at this and be and think wow it's kind of not cool and you're kind of screwing up your teammates and like would it be for example

let's say it's like a bigger program player is offered five hundred thousand dollars and he's like nah i think i deserve more based on my play and i'm gonna leave my team like would you then

well let me let me introduce an even more sort of like uh

thorny hypothetical right so we've seen versions of thorny hypotheticals before where it's like players sitting out bowl games because they prioritize their health right and so that's a familiar debate but what if, what if, behind the scenes, quietly, another school was like, hey,

we'll pay you twice what you're making right now next year to stop playing this season.

I mean, take it.

But at that point, you're like actively, you're actively

undermining, like paying a kid to betray his team in the present.

And you're basically saying, I mean, this is what I, I'm like, where would I turn on the kid?

I'm like, that feels f ⁇ ed up.

What is the goal of college sports, right?

Like the goal of college sports is to like make as much money as an individual player, right?

Like the teammates, like the teammate thing is something that the fans and the school have like created to make you feel like you're part of something bigger.

But like nobody cares about the collective, right, of the play.

You know what I'm saying?

Like the like your goal as a college player, like this sluka's gone from UNLV, right?

But if they, I don't know what their recruitment or their five, their, their prospects there.

But if I'm a five-star linebacker at UNLV, I'm not sure I give a shit that Sluka's gone because I'm still going to be a five-star LB linebacker who is going to be fine when you look at the, when you break down like the footage and I get my

NFL contract or I go into the draft or whatever.

Like, I'm not sure if.

I should, as a player, me, maybe because I'm old, like if I'm thinking about going into a team, I'm not sure if I care about waving the flag of UNLV or or any school as much as I care about myself.

And I'm not sure if Sluka leaves, unless I'm a receiver.

That's maybe something different.

Yeah.

I think this is where I'm going to say the

weed and play card might actually be applicable here because I just know from like talking with players, like they do care and they would be very upset and they would feel like betrayed.

And there is like a level of like, wow, you're, and you know, this comes up with the bull game stuff.

And I think the players, based on conversations I've had, like, do

they understand understand if guys go into the NFL and assistant bowl game, you're not, I have felt most part, players do empathize with that, whatever.

But I think if we were talking about a situation as one as dramatic as the one we're describing where a guy just totally quits on the team, players would be mad, man.

Like they would be mad.

But I'll say this too.

I don't think that hypothetical happens because I think, or is unlikely to happen, because I think the situations like Sluka are going to be mostly involving players who do not have NFL prospects,

where where you play doesn't matter as much, where you're not trying to, you know what I mean?

Like to like for like a true prospect, your college career is about optimizing your ability to be drafted, to be drafted high, to impress NFL teams, all of that.

That's a tiny minority of college football players that we're talking about.

A guy like Sluka is the perfect

case study for this because he's a guy who did play, by the way, four years at one program.

So you can't accuse him of being a mercenary.

And saw this is my opportunity to actually make some money to earn a living because you know, he's not going to play in the NFL, right?

And there are a lot of guys like that.

They're not going to be paid, you know, the $500,000 or whatever.

This is like the exact sweet spot where this kind of thing happens, I think.

So I've called up noted jock Dominique Foxworth to be our athlete voice here.

Three of us nerds,

we need you to be football guy for us.

In hypothetical locker room A,

a quarterback has decided to transfer transfer to redshirt and then transfer because another school, locker room B, is offering him a way better contract.

The season is underway.

You may now get the sense of what real life example we're referring to.

You're a teammate of this player in locker room A.

How are you feeling upon learning that this is happening?

Then I think it depends on the person.

It depends on the player.

That's what it really comes down to.

What you're saying is that like a guy, then we're gonna pretend like the reason why we don't like him is because he did this, but it's actually we don't with him.

Wait, wait, if this guy that we really like does some, we're like, that's my dog.

Like, we've stood by guys for much more heinous things than trying to get paid.

Yeah, when you are

down to it, like, your relationship.

So, what Dominique is saying is that if you would attend this kid's birthday party,

you would support him in what he does.

If not,

this kid, you're a traitor.

Did he hang up on you

that's what i'm saying uh

should i be talking yeah they've been talking this whole time um by the way uh do you know what day it is today

uh no

you're about

damn it goodbye domini

goodbye happy birthday

Well, we've been judge judy by Dominique.

And I want to know what we found out today after an episode that is full of childhood and

arrested development for lots of us adults.

David, what did you find out at the end of Pablo Torre finds out a show about us finding out stuff?

I found out like six different people's actual birthdays, which is really cool.

That's awesome.

I've updated my calendar accordingly.

And I think that we should all throw a party.

We should all throw, you two should throw a joint birthday party.

That's the thing that makes the most sense.

I've found out that

somebody should make David a Wikipedia page.

I know he doesn't want one, but if you're listening to this and you feel like creating one, I'll have some suggestions.

Get at me.

God.

You know, it does remind me, though, to David's suggestion, a Wikipedia page-worthy protagonist, David Dennis Jr., having a good suggestion.

My first memory of Mina, actually, now that I think about it, it was Mina's birthday party

in Williamsburg, naturally, would have been.

And I believe she was pretty drunk.

And there was like at some point a cheers that we did.

And Mina was like, no, to journalism.

Also, why would that be your first memory?

If you're at my birthday party, it doesn't even make sense.

Yeah, right.

This is.

It doesn't even make sense.

Was it a friend of a friend?

Was Pablo a friend of a friend that became friends?

Was that the...

No,

I wouldn't have invited you to my birthday party if we weren't already friends.

Oh, wait a minute.

Maybe that was me.

Maybe I'm the person who was drunk

toasting journalism.

Pablo Torre finds out is produced by Michael Antonucci, Walter Ravaroma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Dawig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rob McRae, Rachel Miller-Howard, Ethan Schreier, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Chris Tumanello, and Juliet Warren.

Our studio engineering by RG Systems.

Our sound design by NGW Post.

Our theme song, as always, is by John Bravo.

And all of us will talk to you on Tuesday.