Share & Tell (and Teeth) with Mina Kimes, Dan, and Pablo

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out.

I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is.

Can we talk about grinding?

Right after this ad.

You're listening to Giraffe Kings Network.

If you're looking to add something special to your next celebration, try Remy Martin's 1738 Accord Royale.

This smooth, flavorful cognac is crafted from the finest grapes and aged to perfection, giving you rich notes of oak and caramel with every sip.

Whether you're celebrating a big win or simply enjoying some cocktails with family and friends, Remy Martin 1738 is the perfect spirit to elevate any occasion.

So go ahead, treat yourself to a little luxury, and try Remy Martin 1738 Accord Royale.

Learn more at remymartin.com.

Remy Martin Cognac, Feen Champain, afforded to an alcoholic volume, reported by Remy Control, USA, Incorporated in York, New York, 1738, Centaur design.

Please drink responsibly.

Mina has a better camera now.

I'm noticing that.

Power move.

What's the deal?

What's what'd you get?

You got like a 4K something.

She looks, I don't know if this is maternal or what, but she looks radiant.

She,

I don't know if you are happier or what is going on, but I'm not even kidding you when I tell you that

you look vibrantly alive these

Just sweatier is actually the answer to that question.

When you, because I got gigantic lights now, the ESPN finally sent me real lights.

And when we zoomed in earlier, you could see every gigantic bead of sweat on the side.

Oh, but I

look.

I am sweating.

You giving you brave enough to give the internet your pores.

I know.

That was deeply funny.

That was.

I don't care.

Yeah, brave and funny.

I'm not nervous about my pores, but my teeth are not great.

I don't have great teeth, and they're also chipped.

Both the tops and the bottom are chipped because I refuse to wear my mouth guard at night.

Why am I doing that?

No, we should do this.

Pablo, you and me should do this.

I don't know if we have the camera equipment to do it, but we should, in the name of equality, allow the internet the same inside-our-mouth vulnerabilities so that they can attack us for our physical frailties.

Because

I just had a bunch of chicken, so I might have in my teeth if we did it.

I

that's gross.

I don't want to see that, actually.

But my teeth, I also, so I have a I have a I have a mouth guard as well that I was given that I don't wear because

it's incredibly comfortable.

I don't want to sleep in a mouth guard.

No, but I do because it helps with the grinding, right?

You're pressurized, you've got a lot of stress.

That's why I got them.

And so now my jaw doesn't hurt anymore because I do use the mouth guard.

It was a pain in the head to get one, but yes, it absolutely works.

Can we talk about grinding?

Clip that.

Lots of people have been waiting for you to talk about grinding.

Usually I grind every day.

I just grind tape, but I also grind my teeth at night.

And I want to say something because...

It's not like this is new, and yet every human, every adult I know has a grinding problem and needs to wear a mouth guard.

Does this not feel like a creation of the dental industry to get us to spend $400 plus dollars on mouth guards?

I would say yes, except I had pain in my jaw and I got a mouth guard and I no longer have pain in my jaw.

I also grind so furiously that I have chips in my teeth, so I'm probably not the best spokesperson for this.

If you've been on my teeth, my incisors are not sharp.

I've grinded them down to a total flatness of it because I too, I believe I would.

Dan seems compromised by big dentists.

I'm going to throw that out there.

Okay, so you guys, I've been, okay, well, what if I were to tell you, though, that I did not even know until diagnosed by my dentist that I was an anxious person when I was sleeping because

I did not know that my anxiety reached into my sleep.

I did not know it.

So dentists are like therapists now.

They get to tell us that we're anxious at night.

I just feel, this feels like a power grab to me.

And

people had to have been grinding their teeth before, and they're, I guess they're not fine because, you know, previous generations had really bad teeth.

So maybe this isn't.

Do you do you guys not believe that the three of us underestimate in all our self-awareness what our anxiety might be?

Like, you think you guys are all, I have learned later in life that I did not know I had these anxious spaces brought on to me by the last couple of years of just general turmoil and sanity.

You guys think you're self-aware about your anxieties, your neuroses?

Every time I go to get a massage, which is done for like truly like maintenance reasons for me, because I am like my entire body, it turns out,

because these massage therapists have informed me of this,

turns out my entire body is constantly clenched.

Like I am a fist that is balled up in a way that I only realized when, again, either the massage therapy industry is scamming me by telling me I need a lot more work done.

Compromised by Big Masseus.

Compromised by Big Masseus, this guy doing infomercials for, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a stoner who looks casual and easygoing all the time, but I'm wrought with anxiety from my neck to my spine.

Yeah, if only it was just that.

It's everywhere.

Turns out.

Is there a person in our industry who who doesn't grind their teeth who isn't a human fist who

beyond our industry i just feel like everybody right now has these maybe stagats doesn't have these problems that he doesn't grind his teeth he sleeps you know i feel like chris cody Chris Cody feels like a guy whose teeth his incisors are sharp he has not a care in the world when he goes into dreaming no he's been

in the studio here he was shaking his head no he was pantomiming that he is a grinder as well i'm a grinder grinder i've been given one of these mouth guards i wore it once oh no he's not really mouth guard achiever oh no not surprising

when you go to the dentist

do you lie when they ask you if you've been wearing it so i i i i do not lie because

it literally like it is like the equivalent of you know when on room raiders they would go with a blue light and you look at the bed and it was the second that dentist and you'd see the the stains the second the dentist opens my mouth like you could take someone off the street they could look at my teeth and probably tell you that i'm a grinder so i can't lie it's too obvious but you know but i don't care i don't care i wear my shame i'm not going to be allow myself to be humiliated or shamed by the dentist because i don't wear it so i will though I will not, I mean, it's, yes, it's hard to lie about whether my teeth are entirely flat now because I am racked with an unknown anxiety I cannot articulate when I'm awake.

but I do do the thing where like before my dentist appointment I'm going to brush my teeth more thoroughly I'm gonna floss right as if I do this every day cheating active cheating well I'm just I'm just trying to ace level I'm trying to ace how much blood trying to ace the interview and there's so much blood oh my god

it is like a murder scene really unpleasant it is a murder scene the morning before a dentist appointment holy did you guys see dan campbell's teeth on the broadcast no during the cataboise

he has to be a grinder he has to be a grinder

It wasn't the grind.

I'm not teeth shaming, by the way, because, like I said, my own teeth are not great.

They're just like little yellow chiclets over here.

But

it's less of the grind and more of the dip that.

Oh, are they brown?

Are they brown?

I was self-conscious.

Okay, camera angle, go ahead.

Focus on my teeth here to make this.

Because

I just had coffee as well.

So I was feeling like my teeth would be extra yellow here.

I just had coffee and chicken.

This is going to be unpleasant here.

Do you guys even have the ability to zone in here?

We've got a media empire here.

We've got multiple control rooms in Miami and New York.

Do you guys have the ability to shame me on the teeth?

Here's a problem for you, Dan.

I don't think they need to zoom in.

I don't think they need to zoom in to shame me.

Okay, very good.

So, Danny just mentioned that he had drank some coffee and some alongside his chicken, which is admittedly gross.

I am also vibrating a little bit.

I have become a person who drinks coffee, or at the very least, this is not an ad, but in the Metal Arc New York office, there's a thing called Root Brew.

I don't get paid to advertise this,

because I will point out that it is something that makes me feel like I am on the strongest drug I've ever had.

I wasn't a person, okay, there are 45 grams of sugar.

Jesus Christ.

That's not healthy.

That is not

any way healthy.

If you're not,

you're drinking that much.

This is a problem.

You are not thinking about what you're consuming, and it's got tons of sugar as we talk about teeth and not brushing your teeth enough.

Not ideal.

Not ideal.

But I was thinking about this as I was, again, sort of just like vibrating intensely in my chair because I was reading a story on slate.com about,

and this is a thing that lots of people are doing in January.

They're giving stuff up.

Dry January is a thing.

And so this was a column by somebody who was both contemplating seriously the experiment of switching to decaf because caffeine, of course,

is a drug, scientifically speaking, and also getting rid of alcohol.

And

I should also note that the author of this story

is Amanda Knox.

So there's a lot going on here.

Amanda Knox, who revealed and reminded me that it was her byline by pointing out very casually that

five weeks into my study abroad program, I was wrongly accused of murdering my roommate, Meredith Kirscher.

And so she had to say goodbye to wine because she got arrested.

So anyway, she's not guilty.

She's now a free person in her relationship.

That, by the way, is just a sentence in the middle of this article about giving up caffeine and alcohol.

Yes, was I was five weeks into my study abroad program, I was wrongly accused of murdering my roommate.

That's something that's like, it's about 30 or 40 sentences in.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I wanted to do this before I knew it was Amanda Knox.

And then I was like, oh, we're going to get Amanda Knox's reflections upon pregnancy and what she had to give up because in pregnancy, of course, you give up all sorts of things.

But Mina, alcohol, alcohol, of course, is foremost among the list of things they tell you to give up.

Which is this whole other thing, and there's a lot of debate over what you have to give up and the wisdom and the science around it.

And boy, if you want to make people on the internet mad at you, talk about that.

Yep.

That actually, I would say, like, even more than, I don't know, whatever the thing that makes people the mad Aaron Rodgers right now, the thing that makes people the most mad, talking about

the

regulations or lack thereof or the standards around pregnancy, that is the most, I think, that's the third rail of the thirdiest of third rails.

I just say that, even to the point where, like, I guess this is relevant, you know, me when I was pregnant in conversations I'd have with friends,

I was shocked by the difference of opinions, the way people approach this, the nervousness about it.

If you go to, if you're a pregnant person and you're out to eat with friends, the tension at the table when it's time to order, the tension if you do order a glass of wine, the judgment, the silent judgment, or the people saying, we're not judging you, we're not judging you.

I've also read the books by Emily Oster.

It's fine.

Anyways, that is a whole other thing.

Amanda Knox did too.

She interviewed Emily Oster.

She cites this in the column.

Hold on, but you guys are saying, forgive me, because I don't know exactly what this 30th of third rails is.

Mina, are you suggesting that everyone at the table has very strong opinions about what a mother is supposed to consume to accurately take care of a fetus?

Yeah, so just I'll give the TLDR version, and I'm sure Pablo knows this very well from his own wife going through pregnancy.

For a long time, it was believed

the CDC and

all the NIH.

I don't need to know.

NIH, yeah, would come out and say, you can't drink when you're pregnant.

And there's a complicated history around that tied up with the government trying to disincentivize everybody from drinking, women from drinking generally.

But around,

I would say, 2010 or so, the woman I mentioned, Emily Oster, and some other

writers started looking into the research and saying, actually, it's not quite that conclusive.

A lot of these studies are not actually

comprehensive because you don't do studies on, and the same is for weed as well, on like pregnant women who do consume a lot of cases.

Now, and we know binge drinking is bad.

Everybody agrees that, but there's a lot of debate over, can you have like a glass of wine a week?

Right.

As they do in Europe, right?

I mean, that's part of the thing, too, is like in Europe, they drink a glass of wine.

Pregnant mothers do.

By the way, you're not supposed to eat raw fish.

And yet.

It seems in Japan, not the same level of concern.

So everyone's sort of like running different forms of an inconsistent experiment.

Exactly.

And a lot of the studies that have been leaned on were not well done because of confounding factors.

I am not here to give you, to incite debate about this.

In fact,

I'll speak to my own stance.

I really mostly avoided drinking while I was pregnant.

And I think this is probably more

relatable for you guys or a good jumping off point.

It was really hard.

I was shocked by how much I missed alcohol during my pregnancy.

And I was shocked that I was shocked.

It just wasn't something I anticipated.

I never thought of myself as somebody who was dependent on it.

I was a social drinker since I was, you know, like 16 or whatnot,

more than social drinker in college and in my early 20s.

But

I found myself craving it in a way that I didn't expect.

I don't know if either of you have gone periods without drinking or experienced that, but it was genuinely surprising to me how much I missed.

Is it a case of thinking that alcohol-ism is a dependency that looks a certain way versus something that could be by degrees where you're dependent on something and don't even know it.

And the reason I ask the question is because I imagine, like a lot of people during the pandemic, I found myself, tequila is the only one that matches with my blood chemistry, where I'm not going to get too drunk, I'm not going to get too sick, but I can have a numbing involved with what my last two years have been that

a little bit of tequila just mindlessly can feel soothing, can feel deadening, right?

Because especially since I've been in pain for the last two years, like emotional pain, deathbed studying stuff, you can have a drink without thinking of it.

And isn't dependency by degrees where you wouldn't necessarily be self-aware that you were drinking too much or that you were even developing a dependency?

Man.

Yeah.

Look, the degree to which these things, which are classified as vices, and we can bring caffeine into this too, but are utilities, right?

Like, of course, so the caveats apply here, right?

Like, moderation in all things.

This is a general rule that I think is a useful sort of disclaimer.

But when it comes to why we do these things, what it does for us, I don't know if Mina's sort of biological response or psychological response, I shouldn't presume what kind of response it was to not drinking, what she was missing, but I can speak to like caffeine, which gets lumped into this, of course, because NIH, again,

I will cite them as many mothers do.

Caffeine is the most widely taken psychoactive stimulant globally, right?

And the reason why it is classified or it's felt differently is because it has a respectable purpose.

I get to be better at work because of this.

I am now alert and awake, and I'm talking to you guys, and I'm tracking.

A drug with better marketing is what you're saying.

A drug.

Big coffee.

It's instead of nicotine or alcohol that have stigmas.

Caffeine comes with no stigmas, but is a dependency or can be a dependency drug.

Can be.

But as in all of these conversations, right,

there is a controversy over how dependent, how addictive the research is.

Well, you'll get headaches, right?

If you stop drinking coffee, if people who drink coffee every day stop drinking coffee for a day or a week, they will get headaches.

I get headaches, yeah, if I don't drink it.

I mean, Papa, you're right.

The dependency is there and we do

paper over it or don't, it's not stigmatized because of the positive effects but also because lack of negative effects you don't yes you know drink a bunch of caffeine and then hit hit someone in your car like you know there's obviously it's not dangerous in the same

provided that you consume it the way that most people do like people aren't doing coffee they're not doing keurig keg stands at college parties right like they're not like overdoing caffeine on purpose oh but wait a minute i would say four six eight ten cups of coffee i would say 45 grams of sugar if you're drinking it mindlessly like i'm not

like, yeah, one or two cups is one thing, but what if you're somebody who's mindlessly drinking nine cups of coffee a day?

So, so to bring it back to the story, Amanda Knox

was informed by her doctor.

She drank some radioactive fluid is how she described it.

They x-rayed her stomach.

They asked her, how many shots of espresso are you drinking a day?

She said, I don't know, eight, maybe 10.

And that's, that's, that's too much.

That's a lot.

That's a lot.

That's a lot.

Right.

And, and so, and so the PED, I guess we're talking about like the performance enhancement of these drugs.

Um,

yeah, like I'm, I, I have not always been a coffee drinker.

I'm somebody who always prided himself actually on not needing it, being alert and energized and passionate and specific about my memory without this.

But then having a kid, uh, having my sleeping habits change, I'm now an early morning person, which is a shock to anybody who knows me as the guy who shows up late to everything.

I'm awake earlier than I have ever been, and I have relied on it as,

I don't mean to stigmatize, but as a crutch, because now I feel like I need it more.

And certainly now, in dry January, as a premise, the point is that you can be reminded that actually maybe you don't need it as much as you thought you did.

Although, in Mina's case,

I think there is also a buyer-beware aspect that I should point out too, as a side note, Dan.

I was one, I like to consider myself in that first wave, maybe, of people who was aware that Mina, in fact, was carrying a child.

But I had a source reach out to me.

Pablo Tory finds out.

I had a source reach out to me saying simply, Mina didn't have a drink at dinner.

Something.

Yeah, it was Mike Riott.

I've never seen someone more eager to be the first to know something.

Pablo came over to my house when I was hiding my pregnancy, or I was not ready to reveal to the world.

He's nosy.

He's a busy buddy.

It's a private video.

I'm a journalist.

He's a gossip.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

This is not about him being nosy.

It's about how he loves

being the first on something or just being the

report.

He came to my house because we went to this event together.

It was the Gold House Gala.

And I swear to God,

he looked like the veins were about to pop out of his head.

He was just sitting there staring at me.

So

eager for me to just reveal it to him.

And finally, I gave in.

I just told him because I could tell it was literally

he's the worst.

I thought I was pretty slick.

I thought I was pretty slick.

It's funny because we were wearing, I mean, she was wearing a gown.

I was wearing a black tie, like tuxedo.

It was an event for the top 100 Asian Americans.

Oh, for the 100 Asian.

Oh, America.

How many?

What are we doing?

I'm just saying, you're surrounded by high-end Asians, Dan.

Sorry.

Like, this is the company you built.

He loves knowing stuff.

I do.

He just loves it.

And I saw it in the middle.

I guess that's the entire premise of this conference.

I drink coffee because I depended on it.

It actually helps me get up because I'm like, it's something I look forward to.

I drink alcohol because I like the flavor, but also to Dan's question, for me, it takes the edge off.

I think one thing that really struck me during my time drinking, not drinking, was

it overlapped with the Super Bowl and the combine, some big events.

And oh my God, parties suck when you don't drink.

If, like me, you're a somebody who is, who needs it, apparently, in a way that I'm not sure.

Oh, but socially, no, it probably helps you with whatever the awkwardness is in just sort of socially interacting with people, right?

Like there's got to be, there's got to, Mina, there has to be all sorts of weird energy as you enter fame and people with an understanding now of who you are, who have a whole list of things they think they know about you in a social setting and you're meeting them for the first time.

Like, that's got to be a social awkwardness beyond even the normal stuff of just meeting new people.

I mean, it was the same way when I was in college.

So, I'm not going to act like I need the edge now because of my D-list celebrity.

No,

I have found that in large social gatherings, and tell me if you guys feel the same way,

that sort of blunted, slightly fuzzy feeling you get from having a couple of drinks makes them more enjoyable.

I don't need it to have one-on-one interactions or group dinners or work or do any of the other things.

But for some reason, that particular environment to me is much more palatable

with a beverage in hand.

Yeah, I mean, I feel like it connects a bit to just the idea of can we stop grinding our teeth so much?

Can we release and relax just a bit?

Of course, my approach this entire time has been to quietly be just a little bit stoned while everyone else is drunk.

And I find that that works pretty well until someone notices and then you're like super paranoid.

And then it becomes untenable for everybody.

The part with me, though, and the pandemic, and I don't know if this is what would happen to you stoned, Pablo, but when I'm talking about

the numbing effect of, you know, a couple of shots of tequila every couple of days,

the dulling of thoughts,

the stopping of the mind, the,

I don't know how consumed you guys are by these anxieties.

I don't know, Mina, I don't know if people look at Pablo and see someone who is anxious.

I think they'd be surprised that he is that anxious.

And I would think he's that anxious because his mind controls everything that he's doing all the time.

He thinks it's a blessing and it's actually very often a poison.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, do you think the fact that we use these substances really reflects that we have an unusual amount of anxiety?

I mean, what we're talking about is

the pretty standard.

I think that's, so the reason I am happy and

a little alarmed at the same time about knowing how many teeth grinders I'm surrounded by is because I believe that our problems, I think Dan's had a really sh ⁇ two years.

Okay.

I feel like, Dan, if you told me I need to cope with this by doing these extreme things, my God, man, like,

but for me, I consider, I'll speak for myself exclusively.

I feel like the quotidian aspect of my anxieties resulting in this thing that I see everybody else doing, it is both a unifying thing about, I guess, what it means to be a person.

And it also makes me think that all of us just need more help than we're willing to realize when we're awake.

And that part, I'm like, and when we're sleeping, and when we're sleeping.

And

maybe most of all, when I am shaving my teeth down to no is when I'm asleep.

With your anxieties.

Yeah.

If you're looking to add something special to your next celebration, try Remy Martin 1738 Accord Royale.

This smooth, flavorful cognac is crafted from the finest grapes and aged to perfection, giving you rich notes of oak and caramel with every sip.

Whether you're celebrating a big win or simply enjoying some cocktails with family and friends, Remy Martin 1738 is the perfect spirit to elevate any occasion.

So go ahead, treat yourself to a little luxury, and try Remy Martin 1738 Accord Royale.

Learn more at remymartin.com.

Remy Martin Cognac, Feen Champagne, 14 Alcohol by Volume 40 by Remy Control, USA Incorporated, York, New York, 1738, Centaur Design.

Please print responsibly.

All right, so the article that I am bringing to the table is called The People Who Brought You Travis Kelsey.

Ran the New York Times.

It's by Zach Sconebrum.

It's a profile of the twin brothers that Kelsey has known since he was at the University of Cincinnati, named Andre and Aaron Eans, I imagine, E-A-N-E-S,

and basically how they've been working with him over the last,

well, since then, but especially the last few years to make him really famous.

Kelsey is arguably at this point the

most

famous NFL player.

Is that crazy to say?

That's right.

I think that's objectively metrically correct.

They take pains to note that they did not plan his relationship with Taylor Swift, which, to quote a popular TikTok meme, really put him on the map.

But the article is interesting.

It gets into sort of

how

Kelsey's aspirations and their own have contrived to kind of mainstream him beyond football.

And I think this is interesting, too, because,

you know, football players, we think of them as being really famous because of what we do for a living, but most of them are not recognizable on the street.

They're in helmets, right?

But Kelsey is a person whose face I think America really knows now.

They know him from

obviously his success on the field.

They know him from the relationship with Swift.

They know him from the fact that he's in every commercial known to man, that he hosted SNL.

And I think it's actually pretty unique.

There aren't really many examples like this in recent NFL history.

I think it runs, and they address this in the story, the risk of overexposure.

I'd be curious to see how he,

what his cube rating is right now relative to other points in his career.

But undeniably, it's worked, Pablo.

And, you know, they are in this article taking credit for it.

Yeah, no, it's staggering.

And there's a lot here that I want to actually talk to Dan about, too, because part of the reference point here are a couple of people that I think Dan has gotten to know unusually well relative to us at least.

Because at one point in a trip to L.A.

in this story in 2022, the two brothers, his managers, and Kravis Kelsey drive by this massive billboard of Dwayne The Rock Johnson.

And Kelsey goes, apparently, man, I don't think I'll ever be as famous as The Rock.

And the twins apparently look at each other and they say in 2022, again, yes, you can.

And so there is a bit of a, I would have called that delusion if you had asked me in 2022 about that possibility for the reasons Mina was alluding to.

But I also think that...

Part of the delusion of being the manager of an athlete now, somebody who knew him before he was big, before anybody else saw him as a stock to own, it reminds me of like how it is that Maverick Carter and Rich Paul got with LeBron James, Dan.

Like these guys who are friends and not experts, who believe in the subject and the protagonist that is going to become the center, the gravitational center of their lives, those guys were first to market with him.

And it's really hard to tell.

My cynicism is it's hard to tell how much they are the causal reason why he is this way, because they're not saying that they orchestrated Taylor Swift.

It's the opposite.

And so are they along for the ride?

What are we giving them credit for in terms of being people who are now at the center of the biggest name in the NFL?

The article was interesting for a lot of reasons to me.

Four agents is a lot by any player's standard.

Adding creative artist agency on top of your agents, that is aggressive.

You don't really need to be giving up these percentages of your money unless you're being management aggressive of I'm going to be ambitious with my career post-football at the end of football.

Travis Kelsey went to Stugat's a long time ago trying to figure out the podcast game before which is

insane

that this is real.

This is I've heard about this.

Is real.

Yes, this is real, but I would take you back because you mentioned Dwayne Johnson.

I went to college with Dwayne Johnson.

Dwayne Johnson was

not a great football player or not compared to the people who were ahead of him at defensive tackle.

But he had learned from wrestling that around sports, you can have charisma and work ethic and turn it into something.

And Travis Kelsey, with the help of these people, has figured out a way to get into the space in football where they've got a hugely popular sport, but the only guys who get the marketing are the old white quarterbacks.

So what can we do about that?

Well, we can be aggressive about taking a tight end and making sure that we manage around his charisma because he wants to be famous outside of football.

He tried a dating show and they hated it in the Kansas City organization.

He was doing reality television.

And so they just did it better and smarter.

They took a guy who's got great talent, a champion and charisma, and they found the ingredients.

You can say that this was orchestrated.

It was by design.

It was strategic.

It was smart.

They got Travis Kelsey, what agents are paid to get them, the things they want.

I think

you're absolutely right.

Although he has, you talked about his charisma.

I think there's kind of two things here that are unique.

One is

he's one of the greatest to ever played the position.

I do question, I wonder, would any of this be happening if not for the fact fact that they're working from the baseline, that his football credentials are unquestioned, right, at this point?

And that'll be interesting, by the way, next year if he continues down this path as his play, and it will decline, and you're seeing a little bit of that now.

But if it does really start to decline, okay, at what point, you know, does one thing affect the other or not?

Right now, oh, but Mina, but for Jimmy, though, but like Antonio Gates was that there, any number, Tony Gonzalez, hell, uh, Shannon Sharp, was that a tight end who is undeniably, unquestionably game-changing,

great, and none of them get to be this.

Like, nobody, nobody's ever parlayed charisma and tight end play into this.

Well, I think this is also, and this is what I was going to say, also a function of the times.

Like, we are living at a moment where influencers are just as famous as actors amongst certain age groups and whatnot.

Travis Kelsey, you could say is kind of an influencer, right?

Like, he's

not in movies, he's not on, he hosts to Destinel, yeah, and he's on commercials, but he does a podcast.

It's really, really popular.

It's one of the most

oh, just to clarify, like, among the many things that Travis Kelsey's empire consists of is his podcast with his brother Jason, who's a Hall of Famer himself.

And it's one of the most popular podcasts in general.

And so, again, the idea that Stu Gats was like, Travis Kelsey wants me to help figure out out like the most popular podcast it would turn out in the in America is hilarious, but also a symptom of what I think we're circling, which is a fame that is very much of its time.

Like, I don't know if dating Taylor Swift in the pre-internet era would have all of this

residual benefit.

I am served by TikTok constantly videos about the relationship.

I realize that's a Jason Whitlocky inhibition because it means I am also looking at those videos.

I get that.

I am, I, they serve it to me.

I eat it.

Appropriate.

They're serving me more.

Question mark.

You're going to get targeted ads for tight ends.

That's what you're going to get.

But by the way, you know, we are living also in a post-Gronk world.

Like, I think it's funny to imagine Rob Gronkowski in this.

Rob Gronkowski.

I mean, well, Mita, I'm curious where you put him in this taxonomy of like, of celebrity, of tight end, white guy, NFL, helmet on, celebrity, because he seemed to have been the peak of it.

And now he's been Trumped very obviously.

Yeah, I think that's where Dan kind of gets interesting because everything you're saying about, you know, he's just sort of like this neutral, pleasant, affable white guy who's really, really good position.

They would seem to both fall into those categories.

I think, though, there are a couple meaningful differences.

One is the time that we're in.

Two, like, I don't think.

Gronk is as charismatic as Travis Kelsey.

And I think, like, like, a Gronk podcast would not hit the same, frankly.

Guys, come on.

I've watched many interviews with Gronk.

I've seen him on television.

Travis Kelsey is better than him at those things.

I think we don't have to diminish Gronk too much to point out the obvious.

It is obvious, as Dan said.

Kelsey came on NFL Live at the draft two years ago.

He was fantastic.

He was, and this probably also, by the way, cuts into a little bit of what we're talking about.

He was really nice to everyone.

Yeah, people like him.

No, I mean, there's really like people in terms of connecting him to the rock and what makes him.

So, again, that's sort of the

goal here, right?

Like, can he be as big as the rock that was a prophecy i mean he is charismatic could he act i can i can believe it um at the very least i don't know dan if you saw in dwayne johnson oh this guy is a future blockbuster movie star no but in travis killer could not have could not have seen that from college but descending from professional wrestling and seeing the value of being able to Connor McGregor your way to infamy and fame and and just talking your way into the game.

You guys are right that I underestimate.

If I dismiss him as a fool, I underestimate the power of Gronk's likability.

Not everyone can pull that off.

There is value to that.

The marketing and myth-making machine can work with that.

There was a moment this year that I think is worth highlighting with Travis Kelsey as we talk about why is he famous?

What is it about him?

What is it about this moment?

How much of his planned?

Whatnot?

Is there anything intrinsic to him or does he have any qualities that have making him uniquely suited for this?

It was when aaron rogers took a shot at him on mcafee and um what did he call him mr mr pfizer mr fisher right yeah uh you know mr pfizer we kind of shut him down a little bit he didn't have you know his like crazy impact game

i thought kelsey's response to that was about as well as i've ever seen an athlete handle any

drama or whatnot.

Once I got the vaccine, and I got it because of,

you know, keeping myself safe, keeping my family safe, the people in this building.

So, yeah, I stand by it 1,000% and fully comfortable with him calling me Mr.

Pfizer.

I remember watching that, watching the video.

It was an oppressor thinking, oh, wow, this guy's got it.

But it's not as good as Gronk, though.

Gronk's got it figured out.

Just do it this way.

They got that sexy body.

That's all you got to do.

That's all you got to do.

Rob Gronkowski, former fan of the Clevelander Hotel.

So, I read this article in the New York Times.

The headline is, and this will get people to read: they sold everything to go on a three-year cruise.

How it all unraveled.

Excellent headline writing by the New York Times.

And then I start to read the story because I can imagine in the dystopian last three years that there are a lot of people who have had thoughts about

how do I get away

from everything?

How do I remove myself from the dark realities that surround us and create all this anxiety?

So, I've seen nine-month cruises, and now I see the three-year cruise.

And before I get started, because I don't know how Mina feels about cruises or Pablo, but neither one of you strike me as cruise people.

The Cody's, though, are our resident cruise line experts.

They love a buffer.

I've never been on a cruise.

They love,

okay.

Well, I consider both of you hygienic people who don't want to be on a floating disease.

Did you hear us talking about our teeth earlier?

And now we don't call them a floating disease vessel covered with food at midnight and unlimited drink packages that have Greg Cody careening into you on day two because he's had 16 beers.

But Chris Cody is a cruise aficionado.

And what is, Mina, your cruise history?

Because my brother, keep in mind, my brother was always going on cruises.

My brother traveled the world, saw the world, sold art on cruise ships, very difficult profession, saw the world and thought it was the greatest.

Like, yeah, massages.

I mean, I'm in all the time.

Things are taken care of.

It's a floating hotel.

I don't have to take my bags out.

It seems like very comfortable, easy way to see the world.

That's the argument I would make on its behalf.

Chris Cody, can you do better than that?

I mean, the cruise is the perfect place.

I mean, the way I would sell it is by asking you, Mina, when you go on a vacation, just start listing some things you're looking for what are you trying to get out of a vacation

uh the freedom to move around as i please in a country and not be restricted to a boat well luckily for you we have six stops on this cruise so in the span of a week you will see countless places spending multi many hours in each not that many hours not that many hours maybe seven hours you got to be on back on board by five you have to hurry you have to hurry back and they'll leave without you if you don't get back uh but you get about seven hours of a place but what else you could you be looking for a little relaxation well i i could find you on deck six in the spa and if not maybe after that we head up to deck nine for a nice relaxing afternoon at the pool oh you're hungry mina what's that you're in the mood for a nice meal well on deck five we have fine dining but if you're ready to gorge like the codys do head up to deck 11 the wind jammer my god you'll eat like a queen bar food

The wind jammer feels like the consequence of Chris Cody eating.

Oh, what's that, Mina?

You want to have some fun?

You want to get out and dance a little bit, let let loose?

Well, there's a dance club on deck eight.

This is all an elevator away, Mina.

This is all.

In New York, you need to get in 70 Ubers, a million

cabs and trains and taking this train.

No, no, no.

Hop in the elevator.

Hey, and guess what?

In this elevator, it tells you what day it is.

You look down at the floor.

Oh, it's Tuesday.

Tomorrow, it'll say Wednesday on here.

It's a beautiful place, Mina.

It's so dystopian what you're doing.

Oh, what's that, Mina?

You want to gamble a little bit?

You feel a little

wild.

You want to hit the blackjack table?

Well, deck four, it's waiting for you and i got the best part i haven't even said it yet you said you like alcohol there's a bar on every floor meeting it's a perfect place it's heavy and it's not sad at all now the bathroom is sad your stateroom bathroom all of the bathrooms all of the bathrooms are airplane bathrooms all of them i i've been on one cruise my family um took my husband i my brother and his wife on a cruise to iceland and greenland which was really cool but it was a little bit unique it was like a national geographic cruise Were you going for the Northern Lights?

Were you trying to do some Aurora Borealis?

Northern Lights.

Greenland is unbelievable, like Mars.

It was

really interesting.

So I think this is a bit of a unique cruise.

Also, it was also like a bunch of old professors.

So the clientele was a little bit different.

A bunch of non-gronks.

Yeah.

I will say, though, like, you know,

okay, so here's my stand.

Old Mina, this is the worst.

I

hate, I didn't like the cruise or the concept of a cruise for the same reason that I don't like Vegas.

I hate having my food, my enjoyment chewed up for me and then spat into my mouth.

I like to make my own choices.

I like to have freedom of movement.

I like to pick out restaurants on my own.

I don't want everything planned for me in the way that a cruise does for its patrons.

I also get a little seasick.

I'll throw that out there too.

But you get to pick Arena.

You get to pick when you go to Deck Six.

When you go to Deck Six.

Chris.

I said, How are you?

Are you in the mood for bingo?

There's a get six.

We got that on the roller coaster in a game room around here somewhere.

However, I'm really feeling frisky.

And I'll quote Chris on this.

I have a child.

And now the idea of being able to voice that child upon people and have everything all set up for the presence of the child and everything being made easy for me, especially as he gets older, has appeal now in a way that it did not before.

It's It's like how Disney, everything is easy for you.

Everything is laid out for you.

I used to know, I'm like, I want to be challenged.

I don't want to be challenged on vacation.

I want my entertainment chewed up and spat into my mouth.

I want my child taken care of.

I want options for him so that I don't have to think of them.

I don't want to think.

I don't want to use my brain anymore.

My brain is compromised in a way that it wasn't before.

So put me on a cruise as long as there's like a kid's place and I will happily spend my vacation.

Unlimited soft serve ice cream.

I'll take it.

Now, I should point out that this particular story, while we got derailed by just our love or lack of love for cruise ships, this particular story is selling your home, uprooting yourself, and getting involved in a scam that not surprisingly has a lot of tentacles in Miami with the idea that it's almost impossible.

to get a ship to function as a three-year economy, but you have to pay for it on the front end.

And some people sold their home and now can't get out of this situation because they've been defrauded, because they can't actually pull together a three-year cruise, even a nine-month cruise, which is being done by someone here locally.

I don't know whether it's Royal Caribbean or Norwegian, but a nine-month cruise is pretty hard.

And all of this, by the way, as the cruise industry takes an unholy beating during the pandemic, because one of the risks involved is if you go out to sea, you might stay there if a country has another virus problem and be out there for three years, right, whether you want to be or not, because you can't get back to American citizenship at a turbulent time.

So your thoughts there on the craziness of selling your home in the dream of, well, I'll just float around for three years?

Well, it's part of the, I think, a human instinct is to want to see the world, right?

Like it goes back centuries, like the grand tour.

You would go to another continent, you would see as much as you could, because what it means to be human is to explore the planet that we have dominion over.

And so, this premise, and I'm reading this article about the three-year, it was supposed to be a three-hour tour.

The three-year cruise

is sad because there are these people who, many of whom had never been on a cruise before, but they were sold the dream by a Chris Cody-like Firefest adjacent salesperson, allegedly, who was like, we're going to give you all of this stuff.

All your life,

expand your life.

You can work remotely.

There'll be Starlink.

You can see countries.

We'll take care of everything for you.

Except it turns out that such a premise

of a three-year cruise is like a sci-fi movie that, of course, goes bad.

And luckily for them, maybe went bad before they ever departed.

But you see in the nine-month cruise, which is a thing that's happening simultaneously, perhaps because of the economic pressures, Dan is pointing out, that they got to sort of reconfigure how do we we sell cruises to people.

What they're doing or finding is that all of the people on the nine-month cruise have become essentially TikTok reality television stars.

And so there's this headline in the Washington Post about how this is the number one reality show is all of these people who are, I guess, organically in scare quotes, realizing that they can post updates on their own.

Like, because of course, on cruises apparently, I've never been on one.

The ecosystem of characters, of egos, of like, oh, the old people, the young people, the people who want to fuck, the people who are who are hoping to find love, whatever.

All of that shit is happening at 911.

I like how you said that.

I was made uncomfortable.

I was made uncomfortable by Harold Grass.

None of us needed that.

The voice, what was like the deepening of the voice?

You pelvic thrusted.

It was uncomfortable.

What are you doing?

I had Rob Gronkowski.

What are you doing?

You weren't.

You did it again.

No one wanted you to do it.

You didn't have to do it.

It sounded like you were going for something monster trucky.

Like, what do you, what, just have, like, what are you doing?

Do you think he says that in his regular life?

Like when he's talking about it.

Why would he do that?

Like when he's like talking to like one of his pictures, he's like, did you, did you?

Yeah.

Are you doing?

Is that what you're doing?

Is that

am I really getting no backup from Chris Cody here when you're talking about my painting?

Wyatt's in that

Ezra Edelman.

Are you like, yeah, did you get some last night?

Did you follow?

Like, what are you doing?

I invited Chris Cody to participate on this program.

And the one time I need him is backup, he's completely silent on whether anyone can plausibly.

was he's the one who incited me.

He was always producing.

He's like, he said, while you were talking, he said to me, Why did he say it like that?

And then I wondered,

why did he say it like that?

I'm like, I was going to let it slide.

I was.

It's the root brew, okay?

I'm hopped up on root brew.

What did we learn?

What do we find out today?

I'm Pablo Torre finds out.

Dan,

I need to get rid of some of the coffee I'm drinking during our show, I think,

because

I'm drinking too much coffee and it might be affecting my sleep.

And I wasn't even thinking about it.

It's not because I have a couple of cups of coffee while we're doing the three hours of nonsense that we do a day, I'm probably drinking too much coffee because it's not just coffee, it's that Cuban coffee.

And I'm thinking now I'm a little overstimulated.

It might also be why I'm rambling on the show.

Flaming the capesito.

It's not cafesito, it's cafe song.

It's like a lot.

It's what is that?

It's very strong.

It's just what I'm doing.

Is that like the evolved Pokémon version of Capesito?

It evolves.

It's on steroids.

It's, yeah, I need to drink less.

It's horrifying.

But it's good.

Thank you for the mirror.

I appreciate it.

You're welcome.

I learned that besides the fact that Pablo gives a f

about everything.

Bone, try bone.

I feel like you might be able to pull off bone.

Oh, yeah, people want a bone all the time.

I can do that one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, see, that sounded right.

Travis Kelsey might be able to run for president.

Alarming, but true based on the conversation we had.

I mean, first he didn't get elected just because of his first lady.

What a great romance story that would end up being.

I didn't even contemplate that.

I'm going to go home and practice saying the F-word into the mirror.

That's where, that's really what I do.

Think he can ever sound cool doing it?

Mean it?

I can say it not in the context of actually, I was going to say fornicate.

I need to leave.

This is, you're a dorky cusser.

I am.

Is what you are.

I've thought this.

No, I'm not a dorky cusser.

You are a dorky cusser.

It doesn't fit.

It doesn't say the words.

Put it on the poll.

It doesn't fit.

Is Pablo?

Dorothy cusser?

Is he believable when he's not?

No, it's not.

Go yourselves.

Believe that.

There you go.

Believe that you go.

But I should probably also thank the people who helped me grind my teeth less than I used to.

Because Pablo Dori Finds Out is produced by Michael Antonucci, Ryan Cortez, Sam Daywig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rachel Miller-Howard, Ethan Schreier, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Chris Tumanello, and Juliet Warren.

With Studio Engineering by RG Systems, post-production by NGW Post, our theme song by John Bravo.

It's been good to be back with you in the new year.

So,

yeah, I'll see you next week.