The Journalist vs. The Interviewer, with Adam Friedland

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Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out.

I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is.

Let's say our value premise on three: one, two, three is justice.

Just kidding.

Right after this ad.

How's your summer?

It's been good.

It's good.

It's good, man.

You've been working the whole time?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I just finally took a break.

I was going to say, but

you're in the midst of like prepping

your Frost Nixon.

Well, I had Frost yesterday.

Oh.

I had the millennial Congressman Frost.

You know him?

Maxwell Frost?

Oh, that's a real thing.

That boy, a freak.

Elected 25.

The first year you can get elected.

I just Googled him.

I recognize this person he's the first young bull that like because they the democratic party like shanks any other child like young you know like zoron yes um they don't want any new talent they just want like you know so he he made smea gold and whatever he may he's their precious and i think that he's the one that snuck that got through he's like progressive are we are we on the show oh yeah yeah yeah we're going is that okay i didn't know do you you did the sneak attack on yeah Yeah, I did.

Dude,

I have studio envy right now.

Hold on.

Because you came to me first.

I did it.

I'm like, voila, Pablo.

Yeah, it's a full-on theater.

You have a mid-century showroom.

This is the most gorgeous.

You have 27 people behind the camera.

That's right.

I feel like a multiracial rainbow coalition that we've assembled here to surround you.

Is it every single race is represented?

United Nations.

Yeah, you have to do that.

You have a test would indicate.

You have the flags everywhere, man.

We have a rice cooker with a soccer ball in it.

Oh, nice.

Can we restart?

That's mostly what I do.

Can we restart?

So welcome to Pablo Pablo Torre finds out.

My guest today, Pablo Torre, Adam Friedland here.

We're like, we're, we're quite good friends.

We're coming out of the closet as friends today.

You did something when I left your studio.

I parted?

No.

I've been holding it in the whole time.

I don't know if you even caught this because I did.

And I was like...

Is it embarrassing?

Are you no, no, no, you just said, you said on the way out, I was in there, you were premiering the Sarah Jessica Parker episode.

Okay, so you're like, as I said, the president of girls.

So, or like, you're like, you know, you're the number one, you're the, you're the reluctant leader.

Yes, father of the country.

So I just want to ask you, as Your Majesty, Your Highness, Mom, what the answer is to some questions I have about girls.

Okay.

Okay.

So when they say, take these fries away from me, are you supposed to physically do it or do they like, do they say they taste good?

I don't know what to do.

Yeah, fabulous.

Really, the peak.

It's a hard thing to summit.

The peak is not nice.

Oh, my God.

Your peak, well, your peak was the Frost Nixon

over

in L.A.

with the

king of Boston.

That's right.

Fair.

Okay, let's start again.

Welcome to Pablo Torrey Funsound.

You told me on the way out, you're like, love you.

Oh, I I say I love you a lot.

Yeah.

And I said,

it's embarrassing.

Oh, you have issues with that?

No, I just didn't know if this was, I was kind of calibrating.

Like, is that

am I one of many people who he tells that to?

Or did I just.

Yeah, yeah, I'm a hoe.

I'm a hoe.

Yeah.

No, no, no.

What's your body count on the I love you?

Oh, my God.

God, I'm Chamberlain.

Yeah.

Neville Chamberlain, not Willip.

Ha ha ha ha.

No,

it slips out.

Yeah, it slips out.

Genuinely, I'm great.

It's only the guys.

You can't say it's like a platonic female friend, but not anymore.

Not anymore.

Not in this culture.

Yeah.

That's right.

Thanks for having me, dude.

Dude, it's funny that you have been.

Can we call Kornheiser?

I will call Tony Kornheiser at the very end of the episode.

No way.

Yes, and we'll see what happens.

We'll just see what happens.

Will he pick up?

We'll find out.

We will authentically find out.

I am not going to be able to stop thinking about it until the end of the episode.

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I want to convey to people that you are many people.

Many people will be excited that you're here.

Others, I think, should be introduced to you, maybe.

Yes.

Thank you.

I want to establish that, you know, various headlines that may have appeared in GQ and otherwise.

Not true.

I mean, there are photo spreads that indicate all of it.

Very embarrassing photos.

Yeah, yeah.

What was the headline?

I want to get it right.

Is he the millennial Adolf Hitler?

I believe it was.

Adam Friedland could be the millennial Jon Stewart.

Period.

Thank you.

But does he want that question mark?

That's as far as I read.

Actually, I read the first sentence or the first.

The beginning of the article I read, and then I was like, I got scared and nauseous.

I watched my girlfriend read it.

I I was like, I was like, is it a hit?

Where's the hit?

She's like, no hits so far.

And then it's long, right?

It's very, it's exhaustive.

And it's very, it is rightfully complimentary.

Oh, okay.

I would say that.

Thank you.

Your lip is quivering

in the photo spread with,

again, just a real crackling, masculine emotional openness.

I saw those.

They made me take the picture on the floor, like the sexy one.

I was like, can you not use it?

And they use it as the main one.

I stopped the floor part.

I was like, I'm not, can we not do this?

And then they used it the main one.

Yeah, they're like, can you get that elbow crooked at 45 degrees?

I got basically every comedian's group chat just,

I instantly knew.

I was like, everyone's killing me right now.

People text me and they were like, this is terrible.

You look, I hate this.

I had a photo taken in this studio right over there in front of that vortex for New York magazine.

And they had me do a pose at the very end.

And I was like, can you just like hold your

chin in your hand?

And I was like,

they're not going to use this.

And they use it.

And then I look like, you know, Professor Sexy.

So one of the sexiest people.

Filipino, Dr.

Evil.

Yeah.

Pinoy Evil.

Yeah.

You are genuinely beyond being host of Come Town, which is a show that I can't even begin to explain here.

It was like a comedy podcast.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Super big and stuff.

Super, super influential.

And this is very sincere.

A super influential, wildly successful generationally

identifying

unscripted improvisational podcast with you and two friends yeah it was like um we just acted like children for an hour yeah it was a comedy podcast that we did for a while and i'd never we didn't listen i'd never listened to it at the time and on youtube they're like fan generated clip comps and i've listened to it since and i was like it was so funny we thought it was terrible at the time we're like that sucked but uh

yeah it was so funny i guess yeah turns out yeah turns out they were the the fan the fan clip accounts were onto something i think well fan cams the atom fan cams were onto something we had a no media policy that nick instituted quite quite intelligent i didn't appreciate this and well also the name prohibited us from like i think them we were like said like a podcast whose name we can't write in in this fine publication and uh

and we i i guess that's how the show show grew, right?

So, because like, because of the fans are making these like compilations, we had no idea at the time.

It was cool.

It's the best

metaphor.

Yeah.

It's organic.

Yeah, yeah.

A street team.

Yes.

Yes.

A volunteer army.

Yes.

A volunteer army of ugly men.

Yes.

Yeah.

Your proud boys were just.

Come on, dude.

Come on.

No, it was hot, six-pack guys.

It was sexy.

Also, like, like our staff, a multiracial coalition of very proud boys.

Yeah, yeah.

But I say all of that to say that the show that you do now that I visited,

it's not that.

And it is something that I love.

Thanks, bro.

And part of what I love about it genuinely is the sincerity of effort that I witnessed that is quite real.

Yeah.

You're putting work into this and it's not, let me sit down and just see what happens.

It's like, no, you're, you're prepping and you're structuring and you're producing.

Yeah, it was like, I think it was the first time I tried in my life.

35, I decided to try.

Well, it was the first time I tried since the LSAT.

Oh, God.

You told me you were going to tell me.

Oh, what is it?

That's right.

What was your

exclusive?

I've never said this.

Yeah, what was your.

I did a lot.

The first time I got the LSAT.

You went to heart.

No.

So I took it.

So the legend.

I took three.

You took three?

Yeah.

I took two.

Three.

But the second time I thought I,

my, my second cousin is a psychiatrist.

So I told my parents I needed

Vivance,

which is like the most intense ADD medication.

And I was like, it's going to be pre-manned earlier.

And

it turns out

being on drugs, that my score was not enhanced.

So, yeah.

Okay, one, two,

three.

161.

Oh, wow.

161.

That's the one.

The final minute of the Ivy League.

No, no, the first time.

Oh, yeah.

161.

161.

Okay.

And the

time.

Was that...

Wait, did you say your score the second time?

No, the second time is a wash.

What does that mean?

Because I was on drugs.

Oh, okay.

So I was drunk.

You asked me.

I was drunk.

Yes.

Okay.

I was on PED.

I thought it was PEDs, but it was.

You're getting nervous, Gen.

I'm getting the same nervous.

I know.

This is real.

I got the dinosaur game my third time.

It f ⁇ ed my ass.

I would have been the president of the United States if it wasn't for the dinosaur game.

No one knows what we're talking about.

If you don't know, so I recently learned that on the LSAT, the most

the thing that I considered, we both considered clearly the most like fearsome section is logic games.

I was no, once you figure out the system, that you know, they took them off for the snowflakes.

That's what I was about to say.

The snowflakes are gone now.

I can't believe it.

That's I mean, it's just we should go to law school together.

We should retroactively

retroactively, we should get our stats adjusted.

We should leave our women and start a personal injury law firm.

Extensive plastic surgery, start over in a new town.

Yeah.

Pose for photos at very particular angles.

Yes.

And put them on billboards.

I think we just wrote a movie.

I got a 161 the first time.

Okay, same.

And then I, you, really?

Literally same.

Oh, my God.

Okay.

This is getting, this is very relatable.

So you know what you beat, you beat me or you didn't beat me last time?

Yeah, I got a 171 the second time.

Whatever, dude.

So.

So you think you're better than me?

I didn't need that to know.

Did you apply?

Did you apply?

No, no, no, no, no.

I never did.

Oh, I did.

I deferred twice to do, and I told my parents I wanted to explore my stand-up comedy.

Oh, man.

It was really embarrassing.

I came out of the closet as a clown to my parents.

And my father said he was going to sue me.

And I said, that's not how the courts work.

He's like, you promised us you'd be a lawyer.

And yeah, so then,

and then I told my parents this is what God does send me on.

It's, oh, God, it's nauseating to remember that.

I think I was too lazy to do law school.

So I started doing stand-up comedy.

It's what a stupid idea.

What a

millennial, like, what to tell my parents I want to be a clown.

I'm not even good at stand-up comedy.

I told my parents I wanted to be a sports writer.

That's a real job.

I don't think it's that much more real than clown.

I'm so jealous of that job.

No, because there's actually, you get paid by a company.

That's true.

I was getting drink tickets for 10 years.

Yeah.

And working as a paralegal.

My real passion.

Anyway, to go back to what we were saying initially, which was,

yeah, we kind of changed the show.

And Nick, it was Nick Mullins, credit to him.

Like, this is how everything happened.

Like, it would start as a joke because I was the least popular.

I was the schmuck of Come Town.

And we're like, what if we made the least popular guy in Come Town into like a public intellectual, Dick Cavot-esque

talk show host?

And then it kind of became a real thing.

I kind of started to enjoy doing interviews, and now we're three years in, and yeah, now the show's you know, and now you're like really good friends with Chris Cuomo.

I think Joe's got it, really?

Yeah, he's sick.

Are you gonna vote for Joe Biden?

I think when you say he's sick, you mean that he's dying?

No, I think he's awesome.

Oh, he's got a he has a Corvette and stuff.

Uh, I don't know.

We'll see.

Yeah, I think, I think, I don't know.

I love the dynamic, genuinely.

Yeah, well, I mean, uh,

yeah, I did his show on uh News Nation.

You have been.

So I was on a panel with Andrew Yang, and I could just tell that I don't think me and Andrew Yang liked each other.

I did not get the sense that you guys were vibing.

Well, because they were telling me what anti-that the campus protests are killing, that they're killing people at Columbia or something.

It was insane.

This isn't just about anti-Semitism.

It is about the growth of fundamentalism in America.

When you have kids who are openly pro-Hamas, it's not just anti-Semitism.

And

you guys are going to have to vote and donate in a different way and not forget who was for you and who wasn't.

You got it in this moment.

You got to stop with the kids.

As the Jew on the pen, Andrew, you're Jewish or no?

No, I'm Jewish.

I'll say this right now.

I'm Jewish.

We're acting as if kids are protesting at a college and it's the first time ever.

No.

I mean, we gave $25 billion to a war and kids are protesting it.

It's not pro-Hamas.

It's the most vulnerable thing in the world.

Some of them are.

They're always lying.

They're kids.

And there is anti-and it was violent on some of these.

Okay, listen, guys.

People are being attacked and killed.

I mean,

this has gotten very, very

hard.

There's nothing wrong with being against what's happening in Gaza.

But I'm just telling you, I've never seen Americans support terrorism.

Don't think that 18-year-old

kids are the problem right now.

Guys, I got a 169 on the LC.

I got a 169 Yang.

Okay.

I got a 169, Yang.

How much money does that get me every year?

No.

So we started this talk show, and now I do interviews, and it's been really fun.

And tomorrow's a big one.

We're not going to say what it is.

I was going to say, well, that's the Nixon part of the Frost Nixon.

He's my favorite president.

In terms of the writing, the writing on Nixon is the best.

The writing about the screenwriting of that character is...

He's an incredible guy.

Do you know about

he's a guy that just lost his whole life?

And everyone's like, oh, you're Richard Nixon.

He beat Kennedy.

And then America was like, we'd rather have a papist, we'd rather let a papist with a criminal, like steal an election than Richard Nixon.

Yeah, he was like, he looked ugly at that debate.

You think JFK benefited from pretty privilege?

No, I think he benefited from dead people in Illinois voting for him, probably.

Okay, but here's the best, one of the best Nixons I'll give you right now.

Okay.

When he

liked Pat,

who became his wife, and he was like,

Do you want to go out with me?

And she was like, no, like you, you're Richard Nixon.

And he was like, well, can I chaperone you on dates with other guys?

And he did it for 18 months.

Richard Nixon.

That's great writing.

Cucked himself.

Well, no, he got to.

To win her heart.

He broke her.

I mean, she broke.

Yeah, she eventually was like, I'll be with Richard Nixon, I guess.

But yeah, he was, he's, I think.

I visited.

I did.

I was at a wedding in California, and it was within driving distance of the presidential.

Did you go?

Yes.

Yeah, we love Nixon.

We're both.

I got a shirt of him shaking Elvis's hand.

That one.

That one.

Elvis was on fat Elvis.

Yeah.

The anti-drug thing, right?

I believe that's that must be why Elvis was there.

Yeah, and he was on a ton of like speed at the time and fat somehow.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He has the, I mean, yes.

Which is such a funny idea, is that like the kids are going to like Elvis to tell them not to do drugs.

So, like, this is that, this is exactly why he was there.

So, King of Rock and Roll visited the White House in 1970 with one goal.

This is the subet of an article, to have Nixon grant him a federal NARC badge.

Which is, that's the, that's the movie.

That's a Shaquille O'Neal move.

Yeah.

Like how Shaq was deputized by Sheriff Joe Arpaio.

Where's Arpaio at the?

Oh, he's dead.

I think he died.

Sheriff Joe.

We're going to find it.

Mariposa.

We're just hanging out right now.

Googling.

This is how we talk to each other.

We change the subject every two sentences.

Sheriff Joe Arpaio is 93 years old and thriving.

Good for him.

You guys are going to enjoy Pablo and I changing the subject 17 times, saying, you remember this guy?

Do you remember Mookie Blaylock?

Do you remember?

Yeah, yeah.

John Olerud.

This will cut down.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

We're definitely going to exhaustively

from this so what's up how you doing can we call cordon has

do you consider yourself a journalist now i don't know what is it you know the you you didn't go to j school no what are like the rules of it well that's part of the problem have i broken any of the rules i don't know yeah but i think part of the issue is that there is no good answer that's widely known to that question.

Like, what, what does it take?

There are certainly the Columbia Journalism School has a philosophy on it.

Various other August institutions have journalism programs.

So there's no like DSM of like the rules.

Yeah, there's no.

Is there a 700-page text that tells you whether you're clinically a journalist?

So, so no one, I mean, but there are journalistic ethics, right?

Yes, yes.

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, you've worked for news organizations like

ESPN before.

Sports Illustrator is where I started.

That's like a real publication, right?

And they, who taught you the rules then?

Who's your

funny thing is that like, so my first job, the job that I chose instead of going to apply to law school was as a fact checker.

And that was not like a seminar.

It was just like a thing you started doing.

Like you're truly the lowest rung of a newsroom ladder.

That's like the mail room.

Yes, except in this case, you saw, you saw.

You were like Spostra.

You were like in the tape.

You were doing the tape.

I was grinding.

Yeah, you were grinding.

And you worked your way up.

And you had to cross off every single word in an article to make sure it was true.

And And that really did like convey the foremost, I think, principle of whatever journalism should be defined as, which is

you have to try and be as accurate as possible.

Yeah.

I think that's probably task number one.

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

But like journalism to you, how would you define it, actually?

I don't want to just give you my takes.

I mean, I, when I have like an interview that's more substantive, I have like a friend of mine who is a journalist who, I mean, we do research for the interviews.

And so he, he like works on the, like a research packet for me.

And we like talk about, I don't know, I, I don't really, how would I define it?

The newspaper?

I don't know.

Is that what journalist?

I googled it when I first started doing interviews.

I went on Wikipedia for journalism because I didn't know how to do interviews.

And I watched a bunch of different,

like, I was like, who's good at interviews?

And I watched Rogan.

And what he does is like, he's like, well, he agrees.

Like, he, he's very exuberant and he like

an easily impressionable maybe.

I don't know.

I'm trying to say it in a nice way.

He's a colleague.

He's a friend.

But like, he'll have like Bernie and he'll be like,

that's right.

Joe Rogan is a great listener.

I'll say that.

He's a great active listener.

Well, when a guest is on the show, they feel like they're crushing.

Yes.

Right.

So he'll have Bernie and then he'll have like, I don't know, like a Holocaust revisionist and he'll be like, that's trippy.

And then because you feel like you're crushed, take it out, he's a friend.

He's, I, he's a good, whatever.

And because

people feel like they're being convincing, he can get more out of them.

I think that part of what Rogan is there, though, is a really good interviewer.

But I think part of the definition of journalism is that that's not exactly the same thing.

I don't really know what anything is anymore.

It's a schizophrenic world, and comedians are now public intellectuals.

All I know is this, I really want to be careful not to speak from a position of authority.

Like I hear a lot, there are a lot of people nowadays that think that they, that aren't Wolf Blitzer, that have podcasts that will say things.

Like I had a congressman, Ro Khanna, on.

That's why I asked.

I can't be like,

I can't ask him, like, what do you think about HR 270?

Like, I'm not a f ⁇ ing, I don't know, like, I'm an idiot.

I'm a, like, I'm a comedian.

Like,

you know, I'm not Ezra Klein.

So, like, I'm not, but I can't ask.

but I can ask someone, uh, like, you know, like, no one likes the government.

Why do you want to be in the government?

Like, that I feel like asking really good questions, which I think you do.

Yeah.

And I think you're really good, frankly, with people who like seem to regard you as an alien of some kind, especially, and or people that you seem to not respect a lot.

I'm not

sure genres of guests from my point of view that you have.

Well, I think what it is, is this, is like, so like, when I watched Rogan, Rogan, I was like, can I emulate that, like, that, and no, I can't really emulate that because my voice is annoying and Jewish.

And like, so what I do is what, like, what comes natural to me is that I can just self-deprecate.

And I can be like, listen, like, you're sitting next to a guy who pooped his pants on a podcast once.

And so, like, that is a factual.

Yeah, I'm a schmuck.

Like, so, like, so America doesn't, people don't like know-it-alls, right?

It's the same reason why, like, Fedderman had a, like, had a stroke and, and like was struggling through a debate but dr oz was such a was so smug that they're like we're gonna vote for the guy that like was having trouble talking right so during the pennsylvania senate run yeah um john fetterman yeah john fetterman um and uh the guy that wears the hoodie to congress which is come on we can all agree put on a shirt you know like i feel about john fetterman the way i feel about nba coaches honestly where it's like you could dress up john

but at least they're wearing like golf like business, like Friday business casual.

At least they're wearing like, yeah, they're wearing exactly.

So, like, what I can do is, like,

is if a guest disarms, if I'm like, you know, like, just, you know, like,

and if I can like make them relaxed, then, you know, if they, if they're self-aware enough to realize, I don't want to come across as a know-it-all schmuck, I'd rather, you know, then they'll kind of drop their guard and I can like, you know, then I can kind of talk to them in a more natural way.

Yes.

And I don't think people are used to talking to someone like as as unremarkable and mediocre as me.

So like them trying to make sense of it, I think is kind of an advantage that I have because I'm so I'm just

like, you know how AI is going to take all of the jobs.

Like I don't think that they can do something that's just so

like just so nothing.

I don't think like a computer could emulate something so stupid and unremarkable, right?

I think that's my advantage in life.

I think I'm always going to have a job doing this.

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Do you think Chris Cuomo is going to listen to this and be like, he was working me the whole time?

No, we got along, I thought.

but that's that example by the way is an it is like jock nerd that was the dynamic immediately established i i was done i was dunking i think that he was the nerd well but that's that's that was the joy of it was that it got to it got to be

chris cuomo gra having to like reckon with the fact that you

also

um knew what you were doing and he started to play along.

I know ball.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I know sports.

So

that's kind of, I think, I think when you're doing interviews, you have to kind of like, it's like when you're starting stand-up, you have to like look at the thing that's, when you're starting stand-up, you're like, what is fun?

Like, what makes my friends laugh?

Right.

So when I was doing interviews, I was like, what's the thing about me that's like makes people feel comfortable?

So this gets me back to like the definition of journalism to me, because I think.

Asking really good questions,

asking them charismatically or strategically, which we've been describing, is not quite journalism.

But the thing you just said about who am I doing this for, I think journalism has a defined answer.

Yeah.

And that answer is, and I'm going to break out the scare quotes, the public interest.

Like, that's who I'm trying to serve.

That's the real distinction to me.

There are like substantive cores of each one of them that I'm trying to get to, but I have to get to it in my way.

Which is, by the way, and I am a subscriber and an imitator and somebody who tries to do the same thing.

It needs to be stupid to get smart.

I believe that as well, like fundamentally.

If you

like, I had this like internet debate guy, Destiny, on the show.

Oh, I know.

And I didn't know who, I didn't really know who he was before I started doing the research, but I saw that everyone who like was interfacing with him online, I didn't know that it was a thing that you could be famous for online, which is having an argument, right?

What feels like satisfying for you while you're doing one?

I don't want to step on any toes and open the most

divisive issue ever for a prior guest, but I did a lot of preparation for the Finkelstein interview.

People said I cooked him way harder than you.

I don't think that ever, I don't think we ever debated anything in South Sensor.

Not on your debate.

I didn't watch a 17-hour debate on Lex Friedman about Israel where some goy is popping off about my shit.

I'm

so everyone,

he's like a guy that can read a ton and get all the stats, right?

And you're not going to get more stats than him.

So, what I realized was like, you got to come to someone like that.

Everyone's trying to get more stats and more documents than him.

And he's going to have more than you.

So, you have to come to him with no documents and no stats.

And that's like kind of what, like, if I'm approaching someone and saying, like, you know, you're wrong, or like, I know and you don't know, then it's going to be adversarial.

I did high school debate.

Destiny is a familiar character.

Lincoln Douglas?

Yeah.

We're like the same guy.

We're the same guy.

Let's say our value premise on three.

One, two, three.

Justice.

Just kidding.

But the thing about Destiny, which I enjoyed in your interview of him, was that you did not try to high school debate him.

And I think part of what you do really well, which I admire, is that you find

conflict, verbal rhetorical tension while not doing it in the way that a high school debater would.

You check facts insofar as I can tell, but that's important.

I don't want to be a journalist.

I just think that people just don't care anymore.

People just aren't reading it.

They're probably on Twitter looking at people getting killed and, like,

well, you could, Twitter is Sodom and Gomorrah these days.

It's so scary.

I can't look at it.

Did you see that, like, that stat that, like, a super majority of accounts on Twitter are just just bots at this point really yeah really so everyone likes Jewish people still

because I got I was getting nervous there for a second

but I think your point is is a fair one also that like the the reality of how we get news and

probably more people are like you know Rogan's probably getting 10 times more people than Anderson Cooper every day but as a sports fan to bring it back to the guy that was the peak of my career uh-huh i i also think that like modern modern journalism, like what Bill Simmons did in sports, is a really good way forward, actually.

We should disclose.

Sports is doing good, you're saying.

I think that identifying your fandom

and not pretending like you're this omniscient voice from nowhere.

Oh, being a home.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, like just disclose it.

It's okay.

I respect that about him as a Laker fan, even.

And that's, by the way, so our friendship really did escalate when I'm like, all right, Adam loves

to phone call people.

I, it's, people get really annoyed by it.

But yeah, I'm a phone call guy.

Which I, so is Tony Kornizer, by the way.

Like just refuses to have the deposition records, the discovery refuses that.

But the point being that like

you,

as unapologetic Laker fan, calling me.

and talking for an hour about your fandom, I'm like,

you still can be somebody who writes or covers sports as a fan.

You just got to disclose that part.

Sure.

And that's okay.

But the NBA media is just all Boston.

Yeah.

Right.

The Boston, you know, the Green Hand.

Or the Green.

And Andrew Quo at Cookie.

Those people.

Those people.

The Boston Media Muffin, BMM.

The Little Green Hand.

Yes.

I'm out of the closet as a Laker fan.

And people just be aware of that.

But, you know, it doesn't feel.

You're unhinged.

I need him.

I need him.

It doesn't feel the same with him as it felt with my

when the Lakers won in the bubble.

I like thought 30 seconds later, I'm like, it's different.

He's never going to be our, he's never going to be my guy.

Him.

I don't know.

I'm a Kobe fan.

And you know what kids do nowadays?

They're player fans.

Oh, this is the biggest problem for the NBA as a

business.

Really?

Yeah, is that kids don't watch games, they follow players.

Does it make more sense, though?

I think it's kind of, that makes more sense, right?

It's, it's a, by the way, that's exactly what's happening in media.

It's like, I'm not like a Genie Bus fan, right?

I'm not like a ripp or like an outfit.

Now a Mark Walter, your new owner.

Yeah, we're going to do great things.

Yeah.

We're going to do some huge things.

He's also a friend.

But truly, like that whole thing, though, of like young people would rather consume an individual's stuff, Joe Rogan, instead of fill-in-the-blank institution.

Yeah.

So too is it in sports fandom, where I'm not paying attention so much to the team, I'm paying attention to my favorite guy, whoever my favorite individual creator is.

That's sweet.

Yeah.

That's real.

That's how kids are apparently demographically trending.

Yeah.

What's interesting is that

I think that we didn't know who guys were like prior to social media and stuff, right?

Like we didn't, we thought like MJ hung out with Bugs Bunny every day.

We thought like we didn't know that he was like

sociopath.

He had hate in his gut, you know.

We just thought he was like just a car, like a nice guy, because he was so insulated by Nike and by the NBA.

And by the way, David CERN, like, last stance is another good case study in like is this journalism.

So, my friend Jason Hare directed it.

He does not identify as a journalist, but what he got Michael Jordan to say, in which he's crying, articulating his code of honor.

I don't want to do this.

I'm only doing it because

it is who I am.

That's how I played the game.

That was my mentality.

If you don't want to play that way,

don't play that way.

Break.

That's also like supreme perfect interviewing to get that part.

Not the goat.

Not your goat.

Not my goat.

But you're a bad person.

What I'm saying is this is like, I feel really bad.

Well, like the distance between,

I hate this word, but the creator and then the consumer is blurred.

Like the menu of production and

there's a really good

interview with David Bowie in the 1990s where he predicts the internet, right?

Where he's like, the distance between the Beatles and Elvis and then the fans was just light years, right?

And what the computer is going to do is it's going to blur it.

I think we're actually on the cusp of something exhilarating and terrifying.

It's just a tool, though, isn't it?

No, it's not.

No.

No, it's an alien life form.

What do you think?

I mean, when you think then about this...

It's their life on Mars.

Yes, it's just landed here.

But it's simply a different delivery system there.

You're arguing about something more profound.

Oh, yeah, I'm talking about the actual context and and the state of content is going to be so different to anything that we can really envisage at the moment, where the interplay between the user and the provider will be so insempatico.

It's going to crush our ideas of what mediums are all about.

So now everyone gets mad at LeBron for...

every single day for like trying to do something and then stepping like sideshow Bob stepping on a rake but

I feel like now you have empathy for that part of his life.

I mean like when he liked perfect booties on Instagram and it got caught and screenshot.

I have empathy for the fact that like he's kind of the beta tester of this

dude.

He's our generation.

LeBron is the first millennial Jon Stewart

Michael Jordan generation.

And because he's the main guy, like Steph can go to

like, what's that guy, guy, that concert, Benson Boone concert.

And like if LeBron wore that hat at a Benson Boon,

at a Benson Boone concert, LeBron would have gotten killed.

What I'm fascinated by is like

there are all these like, you know, you could read an infinite stream of opinions about you, right?

Like there were three newspapers MJ could read and, you know, he'd have the journalists killed and then they, you know, whatever.

But these guys, like,

what I've come to understand is that these guys, that all of them are re, like, LeBron does consume the LeBum accounts.

Even if he's not burner.

Okay, so I, this is, this, so this is where that drives me insane.

What I should reveal to our audience is that you

don't get me in trouble now, too.

No, but you're the number one person who persuaded me to look into

did LeBron go to the Kobe Bryan Memorial?

I told my dad that, and he's like, you just ruined the playoff run.

He's like, The playoffs are about to start.

He's like, Why are you ruining the season?

You convinced his podcasters

to establish that he never showed up.

Okay, this is an interesting thing that I'd love to say.

But you were the person who were like, I you should look into this, and I did, and you were correct.

But let's be Christian for a second, okay?

The two of us are God-fearing Christian men, right?

Um,

we never saw Michael

be nice, we're like be like uh uh tender ever, right?

He was at his Hall of Fame speech drunk, talking about Byron Russell.

He's like, if he wants to come see me, it's like,

no one remembers Byron Russell except for like us,

Ryan.

The first, yeah, the first, oh, was it by

everybody's weird?

I know, everybody's how do you is this

Brian Brown?

Okay, anyway, can you imagine

is different, yeah?

B-R-Y-O-N for can you imagine, like, the first time we ever ever see MJ,

like,

and it was a beautiful, it was one of the most beautiful moments ever.

He said, there was this kid and he bothered me and he annoyed me.

And he used to call me in the middle of the night.

And

I was like, this f ⁇ ing guy.

And I realized he was like,

he's like a little brother.

And he was in pain about Kobe.

At the memorial.

And

he's like, I love this person.

And if we accept the premise that MJ won't even speak, according to your former colleague, Stephen A.

Smith, that MJ won't even acknowledge LeBron's existence.

Can you imagine how painful he wore 23 growing up?

Can you imagine watching Michael who ignores you and thinks you suck?

And like, and has been torturing you probably through the media for the last 20 years

about, and somehow the goat debate is a thing when we see a guy who's 40 and and 20, what was he, 24, 8, and 8 last year?

At 40.

Can you imagine how terrible that would have been for LeBron?

The stakes of that memorial service could not have been more emotionally profound.

Yeah.

Like that all is real.

Like the Shakespearean whole, like, there is everybody, like, Michael Jordan is in the way that Bill Belichick has been, like, America's emotionally unforgiving dad.

But he was nice to Kobe.

But he then reveals after Kobe is not around to hear it, that he had always had this tender spot for this guy who was like trying to cry.

You're actually tearing up.

It makes me want to cry.

This is, I again, I love the utter sincerity around your fandom.

You know, the

do you know the Michael Jackson story?

What is what is the you don't know the Michael Jackson story?

Wait, about Kobe?

About Kobe.

So Kobe studied the greats, right?

It was like in his office, it was like Steve Jobs.

Oh, God.

Yeah, it was corny sometimes the way he'd talk about it.

But, like, it'd be cool because every summer he'd come back and he'd like go to Houston for a summer and then have the dream shake.

He'd like add a new weapon every summer.

I love that.

I love that.

Yeah, I love that.

I love that.

We love that.

Um,

bald-headed Kobe, Slam Dung Champion rookie, was a babe.

He was 17, right?

And on that first offseason, he's like, I need to get a man's body, right?

So, he was in Gold's gym and he's lifting weights in Marina Del Rey, California.

And he gets a call and he picks up and he goes, Kobe, it's Michael.

And he's like, this is a prank.

And he hangs up.

And

the person calls back.

He's like, Kobe, it's Michael.

I want you to come to Neverland.

And he goes out to Santa Barbara.

Tell me if I'm found out.

No, so far, this is accurate.

Fact checking.

He was in Gold's gym.

How did I get that right?

Okay.

He's at Planet Fitness.

And anyway, he goes out to Santa Barbara to Neverland, and Michael, apparently, they have this conversation.

Michael's like, listen, I see you, and you're like me, and people are going to heap you with praise.

People are going to give you everything and tell you you're incredible.

This is a paraphrase, but the quote from the

close?

No, it is.

This is Kobe recalling.

how inside the French Normandy residence, otherwise known as Neverland, a 2,700-acre cornucopia of childlike delights, according to this East Man the Magazine.

Yeah, it's great.

Well,

only good things happen there.

The two men share a meal of marinated chicken and organic vegetables.

He told me, quote, this is what you love.

This is your obsession, Brian recalls.

He said, I know what it's like to be different.

Embrace it.

Yeah, Michael's like, they're going to give you everything and they're going to take it away.

And every, and everyone, everyone's going to love you.

And every then all of a sudden everyone's gonna hate you this is where and you cannot stop this is where michael shows him the smooth he shows him like and he gives him a book oh yeah yeah yeah so he shows him footage of kobe had never heard of grace kelly fortistera ginger rogers before this private screening by michael jackson in which he explains the inspiration for smooth criminal by the way um but the book do you remember the book Jonathan Livingston Siegel.

It's a book about a bird who wants to fly higher than any other bird.

A novella about an outcast bird who's unwilling to conform.

And he said, we are that bird.

And when everyone hates you, you cannot stop being great.

So again, like, I'm laughing because this is a mad lib, but it's also you're.

And it is.

It is what happened in Kobe's career where, like, he emotionally, this is exactly right.

He went evil Kobe after Shaq.

Basically, he got blamed for the breakup of that team, and it wasn't his fault.

It was much more the buses, buses, right?

They say that Kobe broke up that team, and then Shaq is at a club, wins it, basically rides D-Wade's coattails to a chip, and then he's at a club, and he's saying, tell me how my ass tastes.

This is about P-I-G, aka Big Shaq.

Now that's the difference between first and last play.

Kobe,

tell me how my ass tastes.

And everyone's laughing at Kobe.

That is a great clip.

It's not that great.

Yeah.

Well, let's start.

I love Sheriff Shaquille Shaquille O'Neal rapping.

Okay.

You're going to play the Detroit Pistons, and then the referees are not going to call a single foul against you guys.

Oh, God.

That series.

You want to hear really funny?

He got beaten by

Ben Wallace?

By a six-foot-two-center.

He played big, though.

I mean, he was amazing.

He played big.

My dad,

I think like four minutes before we were about to lose those finals, my dad said he stood up and he goes, we never go on family walks.

And

he's like,

and he's like, put your shoes on, everyone.

And me, my sister, my mom went on a walk with my dad where he was like five feet ahead of us, like walking as fast as he could because he was so mad.

Just working out

with rage.

And so, so, but anyway.

Yeah, apparently, Michael was like,

do not ever stop trying to like be with your obsession.

Do not ever stop

trying to be as great as you could possibly be.

Go four for 28 every single night.

In your last game.

And then you will take 1 million field goal attempts.

That is the most.

The score is 60.

Oh, shut up.

That is the most beautiful sports memory of my entire lifetime.

I cried.

I legitimately called my father and we were both crying.

Because do you remember that last season?

I watched that game.

That whole season was

terrible.

It was a very

nauseating retirement farewell tour.

Well, no, it was so engineered by the league.

Every stadium that was like,

you know, everyone acted like they were Kobe fans.

Exactly.

That's what was

so annoying about it.

Was like, it was really good.

Every stadium did a video tribute, and we were saying goodbye to him, and he was done.

His legs, his knees were gone.

He sucked.

And like, we were seeing him, he had that digit like points uh streak that got he was scoring like six you know on on 28 attempts or something like it was heartbreaking it was like why are you doing this it's like nauseating and uh we got him back one night

we got

it it was it's god theatrical it's god it was perfect

No sport is, I think, narratively, theatrically more interesting on an individual level because, again, it's like there's no better seat in sports, by the way, than being on the court for a basketball game.

It's like being on stage during a play.

Yeah, yeah.

And so you see the faces, you see the tears, you hear everything.

Like it is theater.

And so the NBA has these individualized, like virtuoso performances.

And the problem is that the kids today, the kids today, like, they these goddamn three-pointers.

But no, but they individualized that phenomenon to the exclusion of actual games relative to us, relative to our parents, certainly.

And that's like the gift became the curse.

But the thing that we're talking about, I think the kids can understand because the beautiful moments are a 17-win team like winning that one game or Michael jordan like uh

the d this guy that we've never seen be like uh this beautiful moment in this beautiful speech or kd talking to his mom i mean it's just like you have to the real mvp that i mean that's one of the most beautiful things i've ever seen when you didn't eat you made sure we ate you went to sleep hungry

You sacrificed for us.

You're the real MVP.

because it's like you create a narrative and we love like to follow these people's careers and like human human and follow these stories, right?

And that's part of the reason why Tiger makes me so sad.

Because like, and when he won the masters, so sad

Tiger now.

And I just cried when he won the masters.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because we're at the age, did you have SI for kids?

Of course.

Like, Buzz Beamer?

Do you know Grant Hill was big on in our era?

Well, Grant Hill was like

he was like the role model.

He played the piano.

He was a nice boy.

His dad went to Yale.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, he went to Duke.

So Tiger was like the good boy, right?

And then we found out that

he got ladies or something.

And then the Perkins.

And then he went away.

Like, we felt like...

He was deeply broken physically.

Yeah,

from thinking that he's SEAL Team Six.

Well, he did do all those Navy SEAL exercises.

His dad did used to say that he believed that Tiger would be on par, if not in excess of Gandhi when it came to his impact upon the world.

When we were kids, we were like, this guy's the greatest of all time.

And he's also kind of a kid, right?

And he's winning tournaments by like

19 strokes.

And we're like, this is awesome.

Like, we're part of this thing right now.

And then he just, he went away.

We didn't get, we didn't get to see him anymore.

And then he came back and won the Masters one time.

And it was like, we saw our friend again one time and it was like i miss i missed you like yes it's it's that's that's part of the same uh i guess uh uh phenomena

i love ball i just love sports it's very obvious to me that uh your genuine love of ball is like the thing you're most passionate about i care about sports more than comedy I hate it.

I don't care about it.

I like songs and sports.

Songs, yeah.

I like movies.

Movies, songs, and sports.

Which is why Shaquille O'Neal is criminally underrated in your personal Hall of Fame as a recording artist.

As a actor, recording artist, and

ballplayer.

All right.

So what is journalism?

I think we should call at the end here.

Can we call Corniser?

Tony Kornizer and see if he'll tell us what it is.

Oh, this is...

That's a good button on the episode.

You're a real pro.

Dude.

You think I...

That's a great button on the episode.

I'm trying to land the plane here.

Land this fing plane.

He better please pick up.

This will be one of the best days of my life.

I love him so much.

I know.

It's, I mean, same.

Here we go.

Here we go.

Do you remember being home sick from school and watching?

They're about to take PTI, but we can sneak in.

Let's see.

Is Wilbon there?

Wilbon's going to be way late.

So I think we have time.

Here we go.

Hold on.

Oh, my God.

I'm so nervous.

This is good enough.

What do you want to say?

Mr.

Cornizer, big fan of Adam Freeland.

I just, you know, I would honestly,

if you'd like to come on the Adam Freeland show, come on.

Sorry.

Yeah, I just'm with Pablo right now, and I just wanted to say

what is journalism Question mark, yeah, but he, he's it's his voicemail.

Is he gonna call us back?

Probably, yeah, yeah, just uh, yeah, I was wondering what journalism

love you.

Oh, love you.

Did we get it?

Pablo Torre finds out is produced by Walter Aberoma, Maxwell Carney, Ryan Cortez, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rob McRae, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, and Chris Tumanello.

Our studio engineering by RG Systems, sound design by NGW Post, theme song, as always, by John Bravo, and we will talk to you next time.

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