The “Woke” Smithsonian, South Park’s Latest Dig at Trump, and Co-Host Wesley Morris

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Wait, there's a Claude?

Claude, yes, Anthropic.

Who's Claude?

Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher, and August rolls on.

Welcome back to

Scott Free August.

Do you like that?

Do you like our sting?

Okay, Scott is still, before I introduce you, yes, Scott is still away, and I know he misses me terribly.

He's been posting a lot, pretending he's still on the show, but pretty much he's gone.

and he's sitting on the beach wishing because there's so much news.

But in his place, once again, I have yet another amazing co-host.

He's a critic at large for the New York Times and two-time Pulitzer Prize winner, which Scott will never win, and the host of the Times' brand new podcast, Cannonball.

It's Wesley Morris.

I can't believe

this is happening to Scott again.

I mean, week,

day after day, it's another fantastic person who is so more qualified to be my partner than other people.

So I'm thrilled that you are here.

Let me just explain what your podcast is all about.

And you had a very popular podcast.

Obviously, the New York Times is glowing up the whole podcast division with videos and this and that.

So talk about where the name Cannonball came from and talk a little bit about your podcasting history because it's been terrific, actually.

Thank you.

Well, you know, Jay Wortham and I had this show called Still Processing.

It was, you know, one of the happiest things I've ever been involved with.

And now I'm doing this other culture show.

And I mean, mostly it's, it's me sort of thinking through,

you know, art, TV shows, movies, books, sports.

I mean, anything that I'm kind of curious about and trying to make these connections between

one thing to another thing.

Usually, you know, so far, it's been me talking to other people about like what's coming up for them as I'm trying to work out my stuff with the other person.

And the name, you know, I wanted to call this show some other things.

Tell me, tell me the name you wanted.

I know how the New York Times is about names.

I shoved mine through so hard.

Did you have to fight to get Sway called Sway?

Oh, yeah.

Really?

You know what?

I didn't care.

I refused to do it without the name.

But what was the name you wanted?

Tell me the name.

I wanted to call it Parlando.

Prolando?

Parlando.

Parliamento.

I love that.

Which, you know, for our musicologist friends, you know,

explain that.

It is,

it's essentially, um, it's an opera term, and it essentially means to sing in a manner that is recognizable as speech, essentially.

Um, but there's also, and there's a great tradition of Parlando and pop music.

We just don't really call it that.

But, you know, some of your favorite singers are Parlando.

I don't know, Kara.

I don't want to, I don't want to like, I don't want to accuse you of being a learner.

They They talk fan.

Oh, yeah.

No, no, they talk.

Yeah.

Or a Grace Jones fan.

Yeah.

But I wanted to call the show that because I can't sing,

but I can talk.

You can parlando.

It's been a verb.

But you know what's great about cannonball is that I have discovered that I have been using it at people when they come on.

um both you know as a verb like we cannonballed or you know the back and forth to get them to come on the show like i can't wait to cannonball with so good so you're gonna make it into something i mean it already is a verb right that is how we're using it

yeah i mean like there's you're in a pool and you do a cannonball dingity ding there's a song yeah there's a song cannonball do you play that on the show that's a terrible song i believe uh no i think that probably costs five hundred thousand dollars i would love to give kim deal that money but i don't think the near i mean we have a great theme song i love our theme song a guy named justin ellington did it um it's wonderful it is so not cannonball, like by the breeders, but it's something, it's something as good as far as I'm concerned.

You don't like cannonball the song?

I didn't want to let that sit down.

I don't love the cannonball.

I don't know.

I just, I it reminds me of my youth, I guess.

I don't know.

I got to listen to it again.

I don't know.

Whenever I hear, I'm like, oh,

there's like, it's not the song.

It's not the song.

It's the, it's something that happened during the song.

I don't know.

Teenage.

We've got to recover this memory.

This is 1993, i want to say last splash is like 93 94 94 yeah yeah i'm gonna lean on my i'm gonna lean on my arm for this one and just um i want to recover the memory though because it really you know there are these cultural artifacts that are

you can't quite you don't there are things where like you know exactly why you feel the way you feel about it but then there are these other things that they're not they're not proustian like i don't well i can't say if in your case if this is is or is not a proustian experience It's not one of the high ones.

I mean, landslide, forget it.

That's the gay, that landslide.

That one I listen to and weep.

But do you know why?

I had a crush on a friend of mine, and I was gay, and I was, I listened to it a lot.

I just,

I can't believe I'm telling you this.

That's what happened.

I think that that's an important one, but you can identify why Landslide is a song you love.

Cannonball being a song you don't like.

Let's see, 94.

What was it?

What was I doing in 1994?

God, I was so lonely.

If you can't remember what was going on then, that's another thing.

I thought I was going to ask if you were in D.C.

That's I was at the Washington Post.

I just become a reporter.

You know, I was in the business section.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Maybe it's got to be a relationship.

I mean, I don't know.

They're all relationships.

Were you going to bars?

Were you going out?

No, I'm not a bar person.

I'm not.

That's the whole thing.

You know, you you know, my wife, Amanda, she loves a bar.

Yeah.

She cares about her.

You know, Amanda.

She loves to dance.

I don't like to dance.

I know.

Wait, you're not a dancer?

I'm not.

It's just like my son and Amanda always joke.

One of my sons and Amanda always joke that I don't like swimming.

I don't like dancing.

I don't like bars.

Well, were you missing out in D.C.?

Because D.C.

strikes me as having like some great, well, like having had anyway, some great gay bars.

Yes, it did.

It did.

It did.

There still are a couple there, except now, like, it's populated by the government.

Yeah, I was going to say, they really can.

We talk about that.

Why are they hanging out at the gay bars?

I mean, because they're,

I mean, listen, Kara.

It's always been an issue.

Anyway, all right, we're going to get to a lot of things.

Anyway, Cannonball.

So you talked to

who's the last person you talked to in Cannonball?

Um, that the public can hear.

It's probably Vincent Cunningham.

He and I talked about the new Spike Lee movie, Highest to Lowest.

Um, that that happened this week.

And then next week is going to be a conversation with me and Sam Anderson talking about

old summer movies.

I, well, you know, I had this feeling that this summer was going to be really dry.

And it was in fact dry.

And, you know, it was the usual thing that happens now with our summers.

You get a lot of sequels, a lot of, you know, eighth editions of something.

But, you know, my favorite movie from this summer is Weapons.

I don't know if you've seen this movie yet.

I can't see it.

It's scary.

I don't care.

You got to just like.

That's another thing I can't do.

Really?

i can't i know i know it's like sinners i finally went to sinners i did i thought it was scary and then it was fantastic this is scarier than sinners to me i know exactly i and the kid the the this guy is a very gifted filmmaker it's very clear it's incredible um but the arms with the kids yeah i mean i i just don't like that i don't know why that upset me and i don't want to see it and i don't want it i could i've seen it in this posters and i don't want to see it in my head like i i was just in my town i was driving through oh it was on long island doing something which the New York Post has reported about.

But

they were filming the Devil Wears Product 2 out there.

I won't say more.

And so

it has just been sold.

All right.

So various minor situations.

So

I grew up there and there was a movie theater that used to be there in Roslyn Harbor and Roslyn Village.

And I saw

Tales from the Crypt there when I was a kid with my brother.

He dragged me on a rainy day.

I had a turkey sandwich in my pocket, and which, by the way, stayed there for too long later.

But

it was from the Clock Tower restaurant, and that I did not like seeing that movie.

That upset me.

There was a Santa that was evil in it, etc.

Remember that movie?

And I was with my brother in an old movie theater, and I'll never forgive him for taking me to that movie.

So I don't see horror movies very much

then.

Since then, I saw Halloween once, and I did not appreciate it, even though I very much like Jamie Lee Curtis.

Yeah, I mean, Halloween's a that's a no-brainer in terms of just like a really visceral movie going experience.

You had a bad one.

Well, a guy grabbed my legs during the scary scene in behind me because he had seen it before.

And I have a bad experience as Halloween.

So, this one looks beautifully done horror movies.

That's why I imagine it would stick with me.

It's very good.

Anyway, the point of bringing that up is weapons.

Weapons is the only, like, it's the only thing.

It's one of the few things this summer based on an original screenplay.

And I

went sinners sort of bled into summer, right?

The conversation around it did.

Bled into summer.

And I think, you know, part of the reason Sam and I wanted to talk about old movies is because we didn't think we were going to get any good new ones this summer.

Turns out that is basically true.

I mean, we got weapons and like some residual sinners conversation because it arrived, I don't know, onto one of these streaming platforms, probably HBO, HBO Max,

which I just, I'm just saying HBO.

I don't know what we're doing here.

Whatever you want because they'll change it next week.

What was your favorite old movie?

Old movie?

I mean, well, I mean, the thing that Sam Anderson and I talk about is Ghost, but in Total Recall.

Those are our two movies.

Oh, love that movie.

That's a great.

That's the summer of 1990.

Yeah.

You know what the Swishers watch every year here on the summer vacation?

I'm on a phone is

Patrick Swayze in Roadhouse.

Oh, wow.

He was so good.

Well,

why?

Why that?

That might have been a summer.

Because we love it because there's so many great lines in it.

Go watch it, Weslie.

I mean, I've seen it.

Your life will be changed.

My life has already been changed.

By Patrick Swayze.

I mean, many times.

I mean, well, Ghost was amazing.

I just love Patrick Swayze.

I really do.

I don't know why dance, you know, a dancing movie.

He's a dirty dancing.

Yeah, dirty dancing.

He's a strange movie star that we'll never get again because, you know, he's not

really good at anything.

No, but he's a good dancer.

That's not true.

He's a beautiful dancer.

That's true.

Well, I mean, he's good enough, but he's good enough for the movies.

Good dance.

But what I would say is, like, the thing that's great about Patrick Swayze as a, as a person on camera is he's got all the intangible things, right?

I mean, handsomeness, but also a little swagger, but like a real vulnerability or an access.

He's feminine.

He's got femininity to him.

And I think that there's that, that

conflation of several different

like his gender spectrum is bright and

functioning simultaneously with every performance.

He's just a sweetheart.

I just think he's a great person.

And he seems like a kind person.

Yes.

He does.

And he's always great.

We're going to be nice until it's time not to be nice.

Yeah.

Point break.

No, that was that.

That was Roadhouse.

Point Break was another one.

He's amazing.

And I mean, oh, I thought, oh, I forgot.

I can't quote Roadhouse the way you do it.

I can quote Roadhouse.

That's correct.

And we sit around and we insult the Jake Gyllenha version.

I feel bad for the remade Roadhouse.

I don't know why they did it.

I'm a big Jake Gyllenhaal person.

I don't like him doing movie star karaoke.

Like the idea of him doing Patrick Swayze and

Harrison Ford in the same year, essentially.

I didn't like it.

But I mean, because he's his own thing, right?

Like, I don't think that he needs to.

I love that he was doing that movie this summer that Taylor Swift had her enormous tour because it was like, yeah here he was in his sad little roadhouse and she was billionaires selling out stadiums

i mean i don't want to skip ahead or anything but i did find that part of that podcast conversation that she had with the kelsey brothers um

to be

really fascinating when she's like my favorite part of that entire um re-recording odyssey was getting to do her 10-minute version of all too well

which allegedly, you know, is about the person we were just discussing.

Of course, it is.

We're going to get to her too.

All right.

Look, look, we got to.

Okay, you're rushing us.

You're rushing us.

You're not rushing us.

We've got lots of things to talk about.

We've been talking, talk just a little bit.

This week, you're talking about Spike Lee's latest movie.

Last week, you were talking about the series finale and just like that.

Listen, did you watch that show?

Hello?

I love Sarah Jessica Parker.

I'm not of the haters.

I mean, I can see why people hate watch it, but I love it.

It was so fuck you.

I love a fuck you.

Yeah, like to everybody.

Yeah, I love it.

The poop, like, oh my God, they really did that.

And then her last thing was like, fuck you.

I'm going to dance away in my thing.

Yeah.

Did you like it or not?

You probably hate watched it.

No, I love the show.

Okay.

I love the show.

I really think it's one of the great projects about friendship that we've ever had.

I mean, I don't care if we're talking about books, movies,

TV.

I mean, it's one of the great works of friendship

and all the

vicissitudes of being close to people

for a long time.

Well, we have to forgive them for Che.

Che was a bad character.

Of course, of course, of course.

But that's okay.

It's okay.

Can I give you a premise?

You remember when they got into troll for not being diverse enough?

There's lots of shows of dudes, white dudes, black dudes, all kinds of dudes kind of thing, where there's never diversity among them, right?

This show got slapped for it in a way that other shows don't.

And I thought it was really interesting as I watched it.

I was trying to think of a popular show that didn't really try very hard.

That was a long, the thing is, it was on forever, I guess.

That's because it was so long.

98 to, you know, now more or less, right?

As much as I hate to say, this is probably what a lot of, if the people they're depicting, their lives would have been like this.

So they were kind of depicting the lives.

They wouldn't have had a lot of diverse friends necessarily, unless, you know, just unless they sort of, you know, Venn diagrammed into fashion, I guess, right?

Which is great.

But no, I've, I agree with you.

I mean, that's, I don't want, if this is the, if

I live in New York City,

I go to restaurants all the time.

And you know what I see a lot of the time when I go out is four white ladies

just yucking it up.

Yucking it up.

And I think I didn't need that to be the case if that wasn't the case from the beginning.

Right.

But I think the amazing, sort of one of the cool things about the, and just like that project was

it was going to take a different risk, right?

It was going to absorb the criticism of the show not being, quote, diverse enough,

which nobody, I mean, did anybody say Tony Soprano needs a black friend?

That's what I was thinking of.

I was like, there were no black people on.

Well, no, no, no.

I mean, it just,

I mean, there were, there were some, but they, they weren't, they weren't major characters.

I mean, they were like ancillary, you'd get an episode where Christopher, Christopher was hanging out with some Negroes, right?

Yeah, yeah.

That's what would happen.

But I think that, you know, the idea that these women would come back, you know, minus Samantha and be put into a post-George Floyd United States, what would it then mean for them to be able to stay on HBO for one thing and during this period?

But also, what would be realistic?

What would be a realistic experience for them as women who were realizing that the world had changed and that they

were part of the problem in some way without actually saying, hey, we're part of the problem, right?

Like Charlotte goes on it, like Charlotte, Carrie, and Miranda go on these respective crusades to

find

some non-white people.

So the ones that you have were, would make sense would have maybe happened, right?

Yes.

It didn't feel forced to me.

Yes, it didn't feel this when they got past Che, it didn't feel forced because I thought the woman who played the real estate agent was amazing.

And then the film.

Sarita Chowdhury?

Amazing.

She's amazing.

That is one of the best performances on a show

that I can think of.

I mean, I, with all due due respect to, you know, I bow down, Kim Cattrall, but this is just like a deeper version of the same character to me.

And I believe I've met that person.

I've met

that person.

Permanent real estate lady is like a killer.

Yes.

And the same thing with,

I'm totally.

Lisa Nicole Ari Parker.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Amazed.

I've met that woman.

Yes.

I've met that woman.

I know her.

And she would have hung out with them.

Anyway, I love that show.

And let me just say, I love Sarah Jessica Parker.

I know her a little bit.

And

she's actually a fan of Pitt, but you may may be listening to this.

I think she has delivered more entertainment.

I always think of like, who delivers more entertainment in their lifetime?

And she certainly has in lots of roles.

But I actually think that what you're identifying is something interesting about her, which is that, you know, we haven't really,

I don't know, I have not experienced like a useful or

enlightening appreciation of what it is that she did both as Carrie and what she, what kind of entertainer she's been all this time.

I think that there's something, one of the things I loved and sometimes cringed at, but like loved the nerve of

in her work as Carrie is that,

you know, Carrie Bradshaw was somebody who was very present to the moment in the late 90s and early 2000s, right?

She kind of had a really great

white B-girl energy.

And she,

there was like a little hip-hop dimension to her glamour and the way that she would both incorporate like black slang and like borscht belt

comedy um into her like throwaway line deliveries i always thought that was great um the way she could screw her face up was you know that's like 1930s 1940s screwball um i just think that that performance is

Very, very good.

And it got to the to the end and it got better.

It it got even better

four episodes were amazing yes i agree i agree i think she's great i would give her kudos she was also in a movie that it was about a family where she was sort of the girlfriend that nobody liked uh oh was that the um

that was home was it not home for the holidays uh that was like that

oh family stone the the knockoff home for the holidays yeah yes but i love that movie because i loved her performance in it because she was sort of this difficult woman and she didn't hide it and her difficulty and then she falls in love with the other brother etc But I loved her in that movie.

I that's I appreciated her as part of that great stretch that she had in the movies because of the show, right?

I mean, if you can remember this, Kara, her like early 90s version of her, the early 90s version of herself.

I don't know if you remember this, but there was this movie with Bruce Willis as some kind of like

river cop, like Coastal Guard

called Striking Distance.

And Sarah Jessica Parker is his partner in that movie.

His cop partner, I believe.

Wore a uniform and everything.

Yeah.

That's like when Meryl Streep drove a boat.

Remember?

The River Wild.

Who could forget?

May I say she's the classiest dame I've ever met?

I won't say how.

Anyway, President Trump is accused.

We're moving on.

President Trump is accused of.

We can't go from Meryl Streep to President Trump.

We are.

Because listen, because historically speaking,

she's been in many history movies that's why um president trump is accusing smithsonian of focusing too much on quote how bad slavery was and not enough on the brightness of america trump sent a post on true socials he's directed his attorneys to go through the museums and start the same process done with universities across the country also noted the country cannot be woke because woke is broke the comments come a week after the white house announced a sweeping review of the smithsonian museums were given 120 days to change content the trump administration finds problematic in tone historical framing and alignment with american ideals.

I mean,

please just go on.

Please just pontificate on what is happening here.

How bad slavery was.

Can I start here?

I want to take you back to February 24th.

Sorry, February 21st, 2017.

This is like a month after the inauguration.

And

I mean, because this is what I've been thinking about.

This man, a month after the inauguration, gets a tour of the relatively still new Smithsonian Museum of African American History and Culture, which

we at my house call the Blacksonian.

The president

gets a tour of this museum from Lonnie Bunch, the man who is now in charge of the whole Smithsonian system and is under fire to

gladden it up.

President Trump gives this speech.

I have the entire speech.

I'm not going to read all of it, but Kara,

I'm going to just like read some of it because I don't recognize this person,

this person is a different person.

I am very proud of Lonnie Bunch.

The work and the love that he has done in his heart and for what he's done is, I always need to talk.

He's like, this is not a written speech.

I always need to talk to you.

I always need to talk about your, you need enthusiasm.

You need really, you need really love for anything.

You, you do it successfully.

And Lonnie, you, where are you?

Come on, Lonnie.

I'll skip ahead.

Then he thanks, David Rubenstein, who he just fired from the Kennedy Center.

Uh, it's a privilege to be here today.

This museum is so is a beautiful tribute to so many American heroes: heroes like Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglass, Booker T.

Washington, Rosa Parks, the Greensboro students, the students who had a sit-in at a at a Woolworth in Greenborough, North Carolina,

the African-American Medal of Honor recipients, among so many other really incredible heroes.

It's amazing to see.

I went to M Dash.

We did a pretty comprehensive tour, but not comprehensive enough, Kara.

Not comprehensive enough.

So Lonnie, I'll be back.

I told you that.

Because I could stay here for a lot longer.

Believe me, it's really incredible.

I am deeply proud.

I am deeply proud that we now have a museum that honors the millions of African-American men and women who built our national heritage, especially when it comes to faith, culture, and the unbreakable American spirit.

My wife was here last week and took a tour, and it was something that she still is talking about.

Ivanka is here right now.

Hi, Ivanka.

And it is really very special.

It's something that, frankly, if you want to know the truth, it's doing so well that everybody's talking about it.

Incredible.

Well, he was

tell me what's happening because he had people around him who were like, This is a good thing.

And, you know, look, I'm sorry, I've seen Donald Trump's been a racist since.

I mean, who are we talking about?

Forever, like, never not been a racist.

And so, this is what's happened between age, power, and not being stopped by someone, not dying with dumbass.

Yes, yes.

He now is showing you exactly who he is.

Like, slavery is like, like, how bad, why is it too much on how bad slavery was?

There is not a number of how bad it was, right?

There is not a number high enough to do it.

But I think he just was told what to do there.

And he had, I hate to say it, he had a vonca there.

You mean on the, on the, on the first, February 21st, February 17th, 2020 or 2022?

He had people who were like,

slavery was bad.

Let's stick with slavery was bad on this one.

Terrible, the worst thing ever.

And, you know, the original sin, whatever.

There's no, there's several original sins, but

well, he he wants them all gone.

So all gone.

So what do you, how do you, what do you think about these attempts?

And do you think they're, you know, he just will not give up on this woke thing, which is nuts.

And they had, there was a bunch of interviews in front of the museum and they showed people what he said, like all kinds of people, not just like what you'd imagine be angry about it.

But they were like, what?

What?

What?

Like, talk about this and what they're trying to do here from a cultural point of view.

They're trying to purify, they're trying to create some idea of

a thing that, you know, has been being attempted for 400 years, right?

Like a like a new thing.

A racially purified, well, it's just never been achieved, right?

There's never been, there's, I mean, not even Woodrow Wilson has gone as far as Trump is trying to go.

And Wilson was, was, you know, all but a KKK member.

I think that

this is propaganda at its,

I mean,

most blatant, right?

This is the beginning of something, right?

I mean, if you look at the prongs that are, that are laid out on this table, essentially, holding it up.

Um, you've got the National Guard down the street, probably around the museum right now, right?

Exactly.

You know,

those black people act up a lot.

Like, that's where they would put the National Guard, like idiots, like where no crime is taking place, but we'll get into that.

Right.

But where, like, in a city where, you know, if you ask the average DC resident, like,

could, could things be a little better from the standpoint of public safety, they would say yes.

But do I think the solution to that is the National Guard?

No, it's housing.

You know, it's get let people go to sleep.

I mean, this is my number one thing about like, like what we call crime and mental health situations.

I think a lot of this stuff stuff is just, I think, I think stress

and not having a place to actually reset your brain every night contributes to what we don't, we probably wouldn't even qualify

certain aspects of urban crime as mental illness because we've been culturally conditioned to think of it as gang warfare.

But that's the people.

And the people suck, but no, it's the systemic conditions that have led people to behave this way.

Now, I'm not trying to, whatever.

This is a whole other, this is a whole other aspect of this conversation.

Including sea slavery.

Right, go ahead.

Right.

But I think that the point here is that

something is being gotten underway, essentially.

Right.

And I think

purifying the story of American history is part of it.

I think creating an environment in which they can use Washington, D.C.

as a test case for how this might go once you start rolling it out in Detroit, Chicago, Philadelphia.

I mean, he's describing cities as blood-soaked and cesspools.

No, they're not.

I have raised children in D.C.

and San Francisco.

You know, Kara, I'm actually curious about this because I think it only takes one

upset white woman to have an experience that she didn't like and for that to reach somebody on the staff of this administration or

to reach him, right?

Well, it was in this case, it was Big Balls, right?

Big Balls got beat up on 14th Street, which is not as, you know, it's crazy on Saturday night.

It is, I lived over there, and I lived a block away.

And

it's a city.

Like, I don't know what to say.

It's a city.

Like, all cities have their issues.

And you don't want to minimize crime, but the idea of maximizing it and creating it, it's almost pornographic in the way they're maximizing it, like bloodbaths, ongoing this.

It's like just not true.

Yeah, it does not correspond with the reality that

most people are living.

But I will say that, I mean, I can't speak to its effectiveness.

I think what you're telling me about when people are like man on the streeting responses to the news that he wants to like remove slavery from a museum that, you know, is telling the story from slavery to like the glorious things that African Americans have contributed to this country.

Um,

and how you can't, if you, you know, you remove slavery and we're not America anymore.

Right, right.

Like, who are you?

They will be removing the glorious things, just so you know.

It's not just, it's not just slavery was bad, but white people did the most things.

I mean, I think that's what's really what's happening here.

I mean, although talk a little bit about the Kennedy Center Honors, because it goes there, too, speaking of cultural impacts, it includes Kiss, Sylvester Stallone, and Gloria Gaynor.

The country music star they picked.

George Strait.

Good country music star.

I'm sorry.

I mean, I

mean, also Stallone.

I'm not against Stallone, even though I think he's kind of heinous in many ways.

I think he's culturally irrelevant in some fashion.

Talk a little bit about these honors.

What do they say?

Well, it's funny.

I'm going to do an episode about

these five people and

this particular situation.

Kiss, Sebastian, Gloria Gaynor, George Strait.

Michael Crawford.

Again, important

Broadway star.

No question.

Like, under ordinary circumstances, because Michael Crawford.

Like, can I give you a list of people who have not been Kennedy Kennedy centered?

Yes, I get it.

You start with, has Founder McDonald gotten one yet?

I mean, no, she is not.

Has Madonna?

I mean, Madonna.

You know, I mean, I just, there's so many people.

Like,

the Democrats aren't giving it to Madonna either.

But

I mean,

but somebody on the board at some point would just be like, listen, I think it's kind of cool that Madonna hasn't gotten it because it's kind of, it's sort of a badge of honor.

But the idea that Julia Roberts is inducting George Clooney X number of years ago and she hasn't been Kennedy Kennedy Center.

She is.

You know, I mean, Glenn Close.

I mean, there's just like a long list of people who have not been, who have not gotten it.

But here we are, right?

But I actually think that, you know, Sylvester Stallone and George Strait, those are no-brainers to me.

Yeah.

That's like, that's easy.

That's, that's not hard.

Gloria Gaynor, I don't know what that is.

That, I mean, listen, there's a part of me.

There's a part of me that's like, I don't know, still a little DEI left in this administration.

They needed to find some, a person of color who would say yes.

I mean, what they get.

But even they still feel a kind of pressure

to acknowledge that even though they're letting all these Afrikaners in the country under victimization statutes of some kind.

We got to find one.

We got to find one.

Are you going to go?

I used to cover the Kennedy Center honors for the Washington Post, just so you know, when I was a younger, speaking of my time, that was my job, one of the jobs in the style section.

I have to say say, it was a ball because it was, it was

fun.

I've been Trump's hosting, which could be

hosting for now.

I don't know how that's going to go.

Can you imagine?

Like, what are the rehearsals?

Carol.

Who are they going to get?

Who are they going to get?

Wait, stop for one second.

What?

I'm sorry.

This man is going to have to go to rehearsals.

I know.

I know.

But he loves that.

He doesn't want to rehearse.

He's just going to extemporaneously talk about how slavery wasn't that bad.

Not, I mean, and broadcast it live on CBS, which is also what they want to do.

Yeah.

I mean, typically, typically, for anybody who doesn't know, I mean,

this is a ceremony that happens a month before anybody in the public gets to see it.

That's right.

They have a month to like make a television show out of this live event.

Right.

Right.

That's right.

You can't broadcast.

I mean, you could broadcast it live if everybody's on their P's and Q's.

It's key.

It will be broadcast live.

Stop it.

You know, I mean, in today's,

whatever CBS does and their, and their behaviors, it doesn't matter.

Are you going to go?

You need to go.

Oh, my God.

I need to go.

Are you assigning me?

I'm assigning you to go and do a show about it.

You need to go.

I am going to do an episode about the nominees and like the

rightness and wrongness of having the president choose them.

But I guess, I don't know, I could try.

That's like,

I'm going to think about that because you're right.

Maybe it would be worth it.

But he's trying to culturally take over this old, old aged.

He's going to rename it after him.

He's going to rename the center after him.

He's already on his way to naming the opera House After Melania.

The Trump Center.

No, that's not going to work.

I've been listening to you talk about this man for years.

You are one of the smartest people on this person.

I think that you understand what, I think you understand him.

You're one of the people who understands him.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's because my mother is Trump.

But go ahead.

I know.

I mean, I think that that, I think the people who have the biggest insights into him understand him as a family member, right?

Yeah.

For sure.

But I also feel like, you know, it's funny because I feel lucky because I felt like, you you know,

you know, at my house, it was pictures of John Kennedy, John F.

Kennedy, and Martin Luther King.

That was who, that was who, you know, my grandmother and her sisters had around the house.

My mother liked Jackie's outfits.

But I think that there is,

I just am curious about,

you know, he he's like a stopped clock in some ways.

So that when he says like things that the Kennedy, like there aren't good shows at the Kennedy Center, it's not true, but they would, I mean, some of the things didn't work, right?

Not everything was great that went on there.

I mean, in terms of like the quality of the thing, not morally bad.

There had been.

There had been years ago, I saw when Audrey McDonald, her first show, Masterclass, was called well.

You saw the original Masterclass.

I saw it six times.

She was amazing.

And I saw Spalding Gray there doing his show.

It was amazing there and one of his shows.

And so there used to be a lot more

interesting things there.

And then it just became like.

But the fact of the matter is, the point is, like, the, the, the, like, great people who made that place an exciting place to go do anything

have gone.

Like, Ben Folds split, one of my favorite, like, performers, Ben Folds.

I love him.

Uh, he's out.

Yeah, Renee Fleming hit the road.

Um, and now he's taken over the board.

I don't, I don't know.

I truly David Rubenstein.

Well, you know, the telling thing about this whole Kennedy Center thing is, I don't know if you caught this, but when he gave that press conference, talking about like how bad it was

and talking about how he was going to take over, like he was going to host the show, he said,

I want one of these.

I wanted one of these.

I wanted it.

He wanted an honor.

He does.

He wants everything.

He wants a Nobel Prize.

I waited and waited and waited.

And I said, the hell with it.

I'll become chairman.

I'll give myself an honor.

Maybe next year we'll honor Trump.

Yep.

That's what he said.

We probably will have to, although I would enjoy that.

Fuck.

I say yes because I just want to see the whole horrible thing.

All right.

Well, we have to go on a quick break.

We come back.

The White House joins TikTok.

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Wesley, we're back.

TikTok just got a new user, the White House.

The Trump administration launched an official account this week, despite the fact that a federal law requires TikTok to be sold or banned, though Trump keeps extending the deadline illegally, by the way.

The new White House account posted several videos, including one in which Trump says, I am your voice.

Posts were quickly flooded with spam and negative comments, many referencing the Epstein files.

Trump is reportedly still working on a deal for U.S.

investors to buy TikTok from its parent company, ByteDance.

Probably Larry Ellison will be involved in that.

The latest deadline for the ban expires in mid-September.

Talk about him using TikTok.

And years ago, just so people don't know, he called TikTok a national security threat in 2020 and tried to ban it back then.

Then he shifted when one of his biggest donors, he realized, was one of a, was one of the biggest investors in it, Jeff Yass.

So any thoughts on them doing this?

You know, I got to be honest.

Well, first of all, I would have just assumed that the White House had already had a TikTok account before

this guy got back into office.

Not that Biden would have been all over it or anything, but there would have been some like

There would have been some like

young person in the Biden administration who's like, hey, Uncle Joe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's some shaking cameras.

They had a pretty good social media group there.

Yeah, I mean,

so I'm surprised by that.

But I also, I mean, I, this, as a story, I know that I'm supposed to be disturbed and upset by the idea of simultaneously the national security threat being addressed.

Like, you know, legitimately, you got to find somebody else to do this.

Can't let the Chinese government involved in, you know, our private business.

I think the ship has sailed.

I don't know about you.

If, if, if, If you were on it, they got it.

I think it's a wrap.

It's how many, like every American, like are they, are there new TikTok users besides the White House?

Yeah.

No, I agree.

TikToks, that's what I always thought.

They don't need anything else.

They don't.

I just think, like most of these media things, they'll go up and down.

And TikTok's not on the ascension necessarily.

I don't know what the new thing will be.

Probably YouTube in many ways.

How do you

knew how, like, in terms of growth?

People growth.

Yeah, when you look at the growth, I think they've been, they're fine.

They're sort of baked in.

Threads is actually growing bigger than X right now, which is really interesting.

They're reaching the same daily users.

I think Blue Sky is doing fine well.

I think what's happened is everything's gotten dissipated in terms of social media.

And then so.

So there's just more, there are more options.

Right.

Yeah.

Depending on what, or people not using it as much.

My kids use Reddit.

That's it.

YouTube and Venus.

Interesting.

That's the whole thing.

Interesting.

That's their entire, they don't participate.

I've noticed I don't use social media as much.

I am having a love affair with Reddit.

Reddit is great, actually.

I had sort of been led to the, well, you know, what's interesting is that Google sort of is giving me more Reddit threads in my searches than I had ever been getting.

Interesting.

Are you still using Google for search?

Yeah, I'm not a, I'm in a relationship with a chat.

I'm not even going to take that as shade, Kara.

You're in Chat G.

I don't.

I bet you do.

No, I'm not.

I bet you don't.

But, you know, I'm probably going to get there because I'm in a relationship with a man who is, you know, I love a man who loves some chat GPT.

Oh, well, some people do.

But he is really good at it.

And I'm learning that you can't treat ChatGPT like some any old Google search.

You can't.

It's not.

You can't.

It's a relationship.

You can't get cheap with Chat GPT.

You got to whine and die in ChatGPT.

The prompt.

Yes.

You got to talk to it.

You got to make love to ChatGPT.

You know, you got to really like give it what it wants.

If you like,

it's like, you know, what ain't nothing going on but the rent.

You know, use what you've got to get what you want.

I just, you've got to

give ChatGPT what it needs.

You know, yeah.

Do you

step out with any other?

I mean, he's tried everything.

He's over to Claude.

He's over to Claude.

Wait, there's a Claude?

Claude, yes.

Anthropics.

Oh, no, Carol.

My man is secretly out with Claude pretending to love Chat GPT with me.

There's a lot.

Claude is pretty good, actually.

Everyone is a different one.

But I think Google, Gemini.

I just think my point is when I'm using, when I'm using boring ass, basic ass Google.

Well, Google is now Gemini, really.

The answers come in AI, by the way.

You've noticed.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I have noticed that.

And I don't like it.

You know, a lot of the time it's wrong.

I don't like it.

Even though it's not right, it's like right-ish.

It'll get right.

Okay.

It'll get right.

It'll get right.

But Reddit is the thing that Google is now pushing me.

Like, it's near the top of a lot of my searches when I'm, when I'm looking for information.

So I've, I've become a Reddit person.

Like, I'll just go to Reddit now.

There used to be a lot of heinous stuff on there, but the people who are running.

That's what kept me away.

Something changed.

Something changed.

It's, it's, you know what it is?

It's a consumption.

I think Reddit is like YouTube.

It's consumptive where you don't have to necessarily participate, but it brings you all kinds of interesting information if you curate it properly.

And I know people have talked about it this way, which is like it does remind me of the past.

It seems somehow innocent.

And at the same time, you know, a lot of the people there take it,

it, it is like the information is good.

Like, I have, I have traveled based, I made travel decisions based on Reddit threads.

And you've gotten good results.

Yeah, I've gotten good results.

My sons use it completely.

Good system.

Let me ask you about another cultural thing because it's, this is all over Reddit and all over social media.

South Park has done it again.

I have to say, whatever is in these people's drinks is working for them.

The third episode of the show, Current Season, continued to mock the Trump administration, an episode focused on federal takeover in D.C.

In the episode, the president is mocked for accepting bribes from big tech CEOs.

Sort of real to life.

Once again, is in bed with Satan and yes, still has a micro penis.

Let's listen to a clip of Trump receiving gifts from a line of suckups, including Tim Cook.

Mr.

President, you have so many great ideas.

Your leadership is truly beyond anything we have ever had in this country.

And you do not have a small penis.

Ah, thank you.

On behalf of the state of Florida, I'd like to give you this gift, a silver-plated space shuttle.

Next, Mr.

President, your ideas for the tech industry are so innovative, and you definitely do not have a small penis.

Ah, thank you.

Please accept this gift on behalf of Apple.

So tell me what you think of,

it also did take, this latest episode also took some shots at Chat GPT, by the way.

But talk about this show right now.

Something is something's in there, weedies or whatever.

I think that the timing is really good.

I think there's something about the brute force of the South Park

comedy ideology.

I think the show didn't have to change to

for us to come back to it.

What do you mean the brute force of the comedy idea to explain that their

their approach is really to just name the thing right to just say the thing that it that that

the to make the subtextual textual um there's no line to you don't need to be literate to watch the show, if you know what I mean.

Like, you don't need to be visually literate and you don't need to really have a great sort of sense of cultural literacy.

You just have to basically know, like have a gist of what's happening, especially now.

But I mean, these guys, their genius is for,

I think that's part of their genius to sort of be declarative

as comedians,

to not need

to have,

it's like the Easter egg

is, is an omelet on that show.

You just see it.

It's just the thing that you, they've cracked it open.

You don't have to look for it.

You might not agree, like the trans stuff, people complain about that.

I just think they go after everybody.

I think that, well, that's the thing that like always sort of scared me about those guys.

I mean, I'm doing it, I'm doing an episode with somebody about my relationship with this show.

And a lot of

what I'm a lot of where we're starting in this conversation is me sort of thinking through

how much the show scared me me because it was forcing me to think differently about things that, you know, as a young person, I thought I understood.

And here were people who were basically my age who, who were making fun of things that I didn't think you could make fun of.

Give me an example.

Jesus.

Yeah, they do make fun of me.

I mean, I'm not a, you know, I wasn't an extremely religious person, but I didn't have time.

I wasn't thinking, I mean, you know, and I had lived, this was, I mean, I would consider South Park part of the culture war era of this, of the country, right?

The beginning of the show was happening at the end of the so-called culture wars.

And, you know, I'm familiar with Andrea Serrano's Christ piss and Chris Opheli's work and Madonna.

And yet there was something about the subversiveness of doing that dismantling and undermining in the form of

like crude children's animation, right?

It was actually the animation is so crude that it isn't, it isn't for children because all the lines are sharp, right?

All the lines on those drawings are sharp.

Yeah, one of the things that's interesting about it is, you know, that they can, not that they continue to push against Trump, they will push against anybody, I think.

And obviously, the tech leaders are perfect for that.

I mean, they don't even have to mock them.

That's exactly what Tim Cook said, you know, when he was handing him the golden statue, essentially, or whatever, the gold and whatever the fuck he handed him.

It's just, I think one of the things they do is, as you said, they are brutal.

They're just, they don't even have to make satire here, right?

Because everything is so ridiculous on some level.

Well, I mean, I think that the one thing that they have changed is the calibration.

Because, you know, when

South Park, Bigger, Longer, and Uncut,

the great, truly great movie musical they made 26 years ago came out,

there was a degree of

subtlety happening there because, you know, they were taking the satire of the sitcom and essentially overlaying it they were they were stretching it to fit a musical movie musical format and so the movie is a legitimate musical while also functioning as social and political satire it's just that in 1999

the culture was different and so the thing that that people were upset about was the way in which it depicted Satan and homosexuals and

um and was having a good time with these conflations and I found that

that naughtiness to be really liberating in a way I did too I was not offended interesting no I was I mean and I should have been an offended party as as a gay negro um but I wasn't because I kind of understood the place that the comedy was coming from and I think that in these in the the lifespan of this show, we've seen our relationship to comedy change like 10 times.

Yes.

Well, you think about the Book of Mormon, too, though, right?

Yeah.

I mean, I loved that show so much.

And oddly enough, I was there, I saw it several times.

And there's a lot of offensive gay things in that, you know, and it's fun, but it's funny.

It's funny.

But it's really funny.

And I know it's like, don't pick on the gays.

I'm like, it's okay a little bit to pick on.

I mean, the gays pick on the gays.

The gays pick on the gays, let's be and other people

in our meetings, in our meetings when you're not there.

But the Book of Mormon to me, I was recommending someone see it even now because it's so

I actually may go back and see it again.

I'm going to go back actually because I think, you know, for the purposes of this thing that I'm doing, I'm going to go back and see it.

But one of the things is I was there once.

Still on Broadway.

Still on Broadway with a bunch of Mormons went because they thought it was funny.

Certain Mormons think it's funny too.

And it's so insulting to Mormons.

So, but

it's interesting that I don't think the the Trump administration thinks this is funny because they have no sense of humor, right?

This group of people are not gonna, if they continue at it, they may, especially the micropenis part, which is really funny, which is what everybody thinks of Donald Trump because a micropenis.

That's what is, you know, I mean, Kara, I can see the tie.

Yeah,

that's correct.

And, you know, the thing that like I find scary, I found scary about Trey Parker and Matt Stone

as a kid was that they didn't seem to have any allegiance to anything other than like their comedic version of the truth and the joke.

Is the joke funny?

Um, and after that, we don't care.

This is why I like them.

You know, sometimes I had a real issue with Dave Chappelle because he didn't mind his making jokes.

I was like, do you need to make an hour of them?

And some aren't funny, like make it funny.

Like the other in at Easter in San Francisco, near my house, they have Hot Jesus.

Have you ever been to the Hot Jesus contest?

I mean, fantastic.

Hello.

But it was like someone's like, oh, it's Sacramento.

I'm like, no, it's funny.

It's like, if it's not funny, then why do it?

And that's what I like about it.

The hot Jesus, come on.

I mean, but again, like, I think that the return of this show has been really useful to remind us.

I mean, because we've had more fights about whether comedy can be comedy in the last, I mean, this has been going on since 9-11, honestly.

Right.

Like, what can be funny?

what are we allowed to laugh at?

When can we laugh?

Um, what now is comedy is really about like who the comedian is.

And the, the thing about having South Park back is nobody's changed.

It's not like in just like that, where Carrie, Miranda, and Charlotte are now no longer 28 to 34.

They're in their mid-50s, they're like mid to late 50s, and

figuring out how the world works.

The world has changed, but the people in South Park have not.

Have not.

That's exactly right.

And it's still funny.

And it's still funny.

It's still funny.

All right, let's go on a quick break.

When we come back, we'll talk about the latest to join the podcast game, Taylor Swift.

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Wesley, we're back with more news.

Last week, Taylor Swift went on her boyfriend Travis Kelsey's podcast to announce her newest album.

As usual, she broke the internet.

The episode had 1.3 million live viewers, which is almost double the audience that tuned in to see Donald Trump on Joe Rogan.

At the time of the taping, the episode has 20 million YouTube views in total.

Meanwhile, Spotify reported the episode has become one of the past year's highest performing within just one day of release, increased female viewership of the shows by 600%.

Not a surprise.

600%?

600%.

God damn.

I know, I know.

I guess the dudes are watching that.

Talk about

that.

What she can do whenever it wants.

And of course, Donald Trump is is saying she's not hot anymore.

She's still hot.

She still remains.

I'm sorry.

Can we pause for what?

What did he mean?

She's not hot anymore.

I don't know because she is hot.

She looks beautiful on that show.

Like, did he mean, did he mean it like that?

Or she's not like...

No, she's no longer the thing.

She's not.

She's still talking about.

Exactly.

This man, I mean, I can't talk about big tie energy.

I just can't do it.

I just won't do it.

Yeah, exactly.

Big, like long tie energy.

Is that what it is?

first of all, I found it interesting that

she basically was using it to, she was using this appearance to announce an album, essentially, right?

Yes, exactly.

It wasn't as though this show needed,

you know, there are shows that would love to have Taylor Swift come on for the numbers.

This didn't feel like a numbers play to me.

It felt like she was trying something out.

I mean, she kind of said it herself

on the episode.

But I think that you know i mean this is a show that has adam sandler come on brad pitt's been on it like it's not it's not like they it's not a desert for celebrity guests um

so having her come on it felt kind of sweet and and to the extent that like adorable a thing that turns into an album

announce an album release announcement can be can be sweet pure and innocent this felt a lot like that um you know the thing that I,

that sort of

listening to the show,

the two of them, you know, the brothers, Travis and Jason Kelsey, you know, who have these, like, they have like very different

off the show lives and to bring their different personalities and energies into the show is often fun.

It really does feel like two brothers.

I think they have a nice relationship.

They have a good relationship, but it was interesting watching Jason try to drive this particular episode.

Oh, because

it was all Taylor.

Right, yes, right.

And the brother's famous girlfriend.

Well, but also the way that Travis Kelsey is just hype manning her pretty much the entire conversation.

That was, it was just interesting seeing the show dynamics change around this, the arrival of this person.

Right.

That must be like that outside, right?

She's got to suck up all the energy.

I've heard that that happens.

I've heard that.

Even if she doesn't try, she can't help it, right?

Because one of the things I thought about the show is, again, like Sarah and Jessica Barker are different, but pound for pound, she's really entertaining.

Like she's really like you want, you can't stop watching her.

And I don't know why that is, right?

And so wherever she appears, and she even sings about it, right?

You know, my daughter was dancing to Auntie Hero the other day.

I don't know why she's so attractive to people, which is especially women,

that that it that it was a completely pleasurable experience watching it in a way that was very satisfying.

I thought

I don't know, maybe not.

No, I listened to it, but I didn't watch it.

I watched it like the tiny little bit, but I listened to it.

But you gotta watch it because she leans into it.

Anyway, oh, no, I mean, I can, I was allowed to imagine it, right?

Um, I find uh,

I don't know, it, she,

it's interesting.

She's an interesting physical presence, um,

and I kind of like her better in my imagination, if that makes sense.

Um, you know, I like one of the, I have a real, it was interesting listening to her talk about

listening to the three of them talk about the Aristotle in their different ways.

And,

you know, the way that, that, I mean, I had forgotten the entire story of the relationship, right?

Like, I mean, he was at the show and was like, I got to know who this person is.

I mean, you know, he's the luckiest fan in the world.

We all know this.

He gets to go home with the thing that he went to the show to see.

And she seems happy with that.

I think that she,

the way she talked about that show

was interesting to me in that I have a lot of wonder about what these tours are like for the artists.

And,

you know, unlike the Beyoncé concert documentary of her Renaissance tour, the era's tour film didn't have a lot of backstage stuff.

It didn't.

You're right.

She wanted to sort of preserve the magic of

the live experience, whereas the Beyoncé film, to me, was fascinating because she wanted to kind of enhance the mythology of the achievement of the live experience by humanizing the person who becomes someone else on stage.

Yes.

And so it was great listening to her talk.

I mean, you know, it was enlightening hearing Taylor Swift talk about toe spacers.

But she does that.

I would encourage you to go back and watch Miss Americana again.

Adjustment.

Because that gives you enormous insight into her.

Yes.

Watch it now when she's famous because at the time she was on a downswing, right?

Yeah, it was when it was around the time that reputation was being rebuffed.

Or there's another show of where she's in someone's house where they're singing all country songs.

She's with two of her, and they're just talking about the songs.

I mean, I think she's quite accessible and yet unknowable in a lot of ways.

And I felt like this was, you know, but she's very, you do know a lot about her in a weird way.

And I think she may be just like this, right?

I always think, does the, does a drunk agree with the sober is an expression, you know, if people are drunk, they're different when they're sober.

Yes, yes.

I think sometimes you meet certain people who are exactly the way they are in private and public.

And

then there's some that are quite different, you know, like a Johnny Carson would be the perfect perfect example, like shy and kind of.

Oh, yeah, you would be disappointed to meet him in person

because you're not getting tonight.

Pretty much like this.

I think she's lived in fame for so long.

So this is what she is.

I would agree with that.

I also, but

there's something about,

yes, I mean, I think that the thing that I loved about this conversation was

how.

seriously she was taking it in some way.

Like she wasn't there to do all the joshing that the brothers were trying to do.

Right.

And so, like, there'd be Jason would ask a question, and she'd be in the middle of answering it.

Travis, Kelsey would kind of interrupt, and then they would start doing their brother thing.

And she would not even acknowledge that that was happening.

And she would continue giving her answer.

And that was, to me,

I just felt like she was happy to have this opportunity to just

think through herself

in a safe space, right?

In a place where she wasn't going to be asked a follow-up question, basically.

Right.

Right, exactly.

Listen, all the results of the results, people are still thrilled with her, which is really interesting.

We'll see how this album does, but

we'll still.

We'll see how this album does.

What do you think is going to happen to this album, Carol?

It's going to be huge.

Like,

nobody's going to care.

No, everyone's going to care.

But I'm saying, like, yeah, but how can you top yourself if you're this woman?

That's the difficulty of being Taylor Swift.

I will never forget my night at the Errors tour.

I truly will never forget it.

Me neither.

It was one of the most special

communal experiences I've had.

I've had a lot of special communal experiences.

This is definitely in my top 50.

And I think one of the things that was special about it was one of the things that she kind of wanted to unpack a little bit, which is like the toll that it took on her body.

And you can really, you know, after two and a half hours, Kara, I watched this show.

Well, I was fine, but

I was watching it with a friend in front of three,

I don't know, 13 to 15-year-old girls.

And for the first hour of this show, which really annoyed me because Lover is the opening album, and

I'm mostly a lover person.

It's not my favorite Killer Swift album, but I do really, there's some great songs on that album.

And these girls were screaming for like an hour, just screaming, just screaming.

It didn't didn't matter what.

They just screamed the entire first hour of that show.

And I, I just turned, I couldn't, but and also, like, the part of me that is like, like, wanted to turn around and give them like the dirtiest look I possibly could.

I was like, damn, don't do that.

You're not supposed to be here, Wesley.

These people, this show is for them.

It's not for you.

Don't you old man them.

Just stand there and take it.

But Kara, at like hour 107,

I'm sorry, hour 107, at minute 107

when Taylor is still going strong, guess who is passed out on the seats behind me?

The kids are out.

They don't have the stamina of this 35-year-old woman.

Nope, nope,

she is the one.

It's crazy.

She wiped these girls out.

Yep.

And she did it night after night.

She did the same thing with podcasting.

She did the same thing.

But she made that look easy.

But I think what I'm saying about the limitations are, the only limitation to me is

that I think it keeps her from doing something that I think is really critical for

like artistic growth in some way, which is to like be reinterpreting yourself.

Yes.

But she doesn't want to.

I mean, I mean, just the act of re-recording those songs, she basically does it.

I mean, I think the original recordings are the important artistic document.

The important historical and political document are the re-recordings.

100%.

Like one of the greatest things a pop star has ever done is re-record the old material.

That's great.

It's not artistically, it's good.

To me, she thinks it's better in some ways.

Her singing is better, but I didn't, that's not what I'm showing up for.

Yeah, I agree.

But let me just tell you, Taylor Swift does as she damn well pleases.

That's all I understand.

We have a news news flash, and she's going to continue to do so.

All right, Wesley, one more quick break.

We'll be back for predictions.

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Okay, Wesley, let's hear a prediction.

Anything you want, anything you want.

Another thing I want to, I'm going to do an Adam Sandler episode.

Okay, I love Adam Sandler.

I'm sorry.

I'm not, I'm not against this.

And

I am just obsessed with these directors trying to win this man an Oscar.

Oh, because they're trying to, this serious one.

Because everybody wants to try to win, like the murderer's row of people who have tried to win this man an Academy Award is just, y'all need to stop it.

Just stop.

Because when you stop trying, it will happen.

I mean, I don't know.

I just, so there's this Noah Bombach movie coming out

toward the end of the year that he is in.

And, you know, I really enjoy Noah Bombach.

I enjoy Adam Sandler.

This isn't even my favorite Adam Sandler mode.

I can't, I won't even get into it here.

But like, I think, I believe for a lot of reasons, the

stars will align for Adam Sandler to at least go to the Academy Awards with his name on a list.

That's a prediction.

That's what you predict.

And do you, you know, he's still in a lot of certain.

I mean, remember Spanglish in 2000?

I just watched the sandwich scene from that movie.

It's such a good movie.

It Pas Vegas.

It was amazing.

I loved it.

The lighting in that movie, the reason I can't really go back and keep watching it is it's some of the worst lighting I've ever seen in a movie.

I don't see anything.

Just truly bizarre.

Like it's all lit from above with fluorescence.

Nobody looks good in the indoor scenes.

Taleone always looks good in Pas Vegas.

She's mostly outside.

You'll notice Taleone is mostly outside in this movie.

She's got like three indoor scenes.

Everybody else is inside.

Okay, anyway, I think he's probably not a bad thing because he is actually every now and then you see very good acting, even though he knows the

you know, a little like Jerry Lewis.

Can you do that again?

There's a really good SNL skit where he visits his relatives and they're like, I think you're taking my character, and they're all his cousins.

Oh, yeah,

it's really great, actually.

Um, but he's, um, I think he's he's like Jerry Lewis to me, and Jerry Lewis, I think, was a fascinating actor.

Yes,

He's more interesting to me than, well, no, that's not true.

I mean, Jerry Lewis at his peak, they're comparable.

Jerry Lewis has more cocaine in him.

And Adam Sandler is more weed.

Or beer.

I don't know.

I mean, but if there's a drug, if there's a drug that, if, if, like, what is their drug or what is the drug that personifies them?

Jerry Lewis is hands down

cocaine.

What's a speedball?

Speedball.

Cannonball.

Well, I mean, like, if the speedball, like, maybe it's a speedball that's Jerry Lewis.

Yeah, speedball.

That's true.

Who knows?

Or a drink or a martini.

Just a lot.

No, that would be Dean.

That's Dean.

That's Dean.

That's Dean.

You're right.

Rodeo Dodo.

Anyway, so you predict he's going to get an Oscar.

You predict.

Nomination.

Let's not go crazy, Carol.

Okay.

All right.

Because who's going to like hip check him?

What does he have to do?

Because he's been in some serious movies.

Yeah, but that's not enough.

You really, I mean, like, truly, do I think he should have been, I mean, it just hasn't happened because it doesn't need it to happen.

You know why?

Because he does Happy Gilmore 2.

That's why, even if it's highly successful.

But I think the thing that makes him great is that he doesn't want it.

Like, the thing that makes him great is that he's doing Happy Gilmore 2.

Yeah, he is.

This is a person who really enjoys himself.

I miss weird Adam Sandler.

And that's, I won't get it.

Like, that's the thing I really was going to try to get into, but I'm not going to do it.

You will have to come back for the Adam Sandler episode.

Okay, I can't wait.

That'll mostly be about

none of the things we are talking about, but this other mode of Adam Sandler that I really want to do.

All right.

I can't wait to see you.

I'm going to go to it.

Well, this has been great.

We want to hear from you.

Send us your questions about Disney Tech or whatever's on your mind.

Go to nymag.com/slash pivot.

Do submit a question for the show or call 85551-PIVOT.

Okay, that's the show.

Wesley, you're wonderful.

I think you're wonderful.

I can't believe I got to like spend 75 minutes talking to you.

Oh, come on.

You can hang out with me in real life.

I know, I know.

People can listen to Cannonball or Parlando, whatever you want to call it.

Cannonball.

It's not Paul Parlando.

You got to be real clear about that.

Parlando.

In my head, I'm going to think Parlando.

Well, fine, but it's Cannonball.

And you're on YouTube as well, even though you don't like it.

You got a nice shine up.

You look great.

Thank you.

You look really good.

All the times when some of them less.

I'm not going to say anything about Ross Duhat at all.

I think you just said it.

i just did say it you there's no shining possible for that man anyway he's got other attributes i don't know

okay sure why not

okay i'm not gonna don't make me insult him i have a name for him and everything else anyway i do i'm not gonna tell it to you on this show i'm not gonna do it

but ask amanda she knows she knows she's she's named him okay uh thanks for listening to pivot and be sure to subscribe to our youtube channel also we'll be back next week and please listen to cannonball it's a great show thank you wesley is a very prescient person on all things culture.

You always make me think, and I really appreciate that in lots of ways and ways I didn't think I would think about.

But back at you.

Thank you.

Anyway, I will read us out.

Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman, Zillie Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver.

Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode.

Jim Mackle edited this video.

Nishat Kura is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts.

Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

You can subscribe subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/slash pod.

We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

The days to Scott are ticking away.

But Wes, I really appreciate you being here.

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