Trump VP Pick, Assassination Attempt Aftermath, and Guest David Plouffe

Support for the show comes from Odo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odo.

It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that makes your work easier.
CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part?

Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch.
So why not you? Try Odoo for free at Odo.com. That's ODOO.com.

Support for this show comes from Upwork. If you're overextended and understaffed, Upwork Business Plus helps you bring in top quality freelancers fast.

You can get instant access to the top 1% of talent on Upwork in marketing, design, AI, and more, ready to jump in and take work off your plate.

Upwork Business Plus sources vets and shortlists proven experts so you can stop doing it all and delegate with confidence.

Right now, when you spend $1,000 on Upwork Business Plus, you get $500 in credit. Go to upwork.com/slash save now and claim the offer before December 31st, 2025.

Again, that's upwork.com/slash S-A-V-E, scale smarter with top talent and $500 in credit. Terms and conditions apply.

Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.
I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway.
Scott, you got here late. You were flying in.
Yeah.

Lots of news while you were on the plane. I heard.
Lots of news. Yeah, yeah.
Crazy, crazy times. I have to tell you.

It's been a crazy few days in the aftermath of the assassination attempt of former President Trump, but even more news.

We've got a lot to discuss about that, including how social media is fueling conspiracy theories and misinformation. What a shock.
And how Elon Musk and others are shaping the post-shooting narrative.

A little later, I'll talk to the friend Pivot, David Pluff, a former Obama campaign manager and current host of the Campaign Managers podcast about what it all means for the election.

He does that with Kellyanne Conway, of all people. I will ask him about that.
But first, Trump, while we were just sitting here, I just selected his VP pick. It's Ohio Senator J.D.
Vance.

Thoughts? I want you to go because I don't feel as if I know much about him. Okay.
I met him when he worked for Steve Case.

Very moderate person, I would say, almost like very anti-Trump tech person, smart. He wrote obviously Hillbilly Elegy, got him famous.
A great book, great writer, actually.

He's since turned into a rabbit attack dog for Trump in this really big shift, which I find either performative or vaguely disturbing, if it's real. I don't know if it's real.

You know, he sort of was talking about the grievances of sort of the whites in the middle of the country, white poor people. He certainly clocked that.

And at the same, and he came from that background. At the same time,

you know, I find him disingenuous and a bully.

I think it's a pick for someone who thinks he's going to win. I think if he had

picked Doug Bergham or Marco Rubio, or Marco Rubio, if he was interested in governing, he would have picked Marco Rubio. If he was interested in someone who the business people would like,

Bergham would be the choice. He's not doing the safe choice.
He's doing the not safe choice,

the legacy choice, essentially. Scott? My My initial reaction is that it's a smart choice for Trump.
I wouldn't be surprised if this is what put him over the top. I saw him on Meet the Press,

and he was able to just sort of calmly and eloquently lie.

Yeah, he's very talented at that. I think he's very good.
He was just able to, he was able to almost, I mean, I came away thinking, wow, it's the Democrats that have turned up the volume of the run.

And then I remember, wait, didn't, didn't Trump send an angry mob of people with zip ties and nooses to

try and go after the vice president and the speaker? So

I think he's good looking. He's young.
He's smart. He has kind of his finger on the pulse of the tech bros.

I think it's a good pick for him. Yeah, I'm not so sure.
I don't know. We'll see.
I think he's appealing in some fashion, but he's really an awful person.

Yeah, but that's not what we're talking about. Yes, that's true.
All right. From a political point of view, I think he's a dangerous person, actually, comparatively to the others.

I think Marco Rubio is certainly the the establishment choice and would be very, would be good at governing, right? And Bergham certainly is a calm choice, dull, but calm,

sort of a not someone that would outshine. I think this guy is going to outshine Trump, and that'll be an issue.
In his announcement on True Social, he said that J.D.

Vance was, quote, best suited to be vice president. He referenced Vance's time in the Marine Corps, his book, Hill Billy Elegy, his career in tech and finance.
Mr.

Vance, he said, championed the hardworking men and women of America and would continue to do so on the trail. Yeah, you know, I can see from the physical, he's a very physically oriented person.

I think he probably thought he was the best looking. I know it sounds crazy.
That's important. And he was always going to pick a white man, no matter what.

I think it's a,

I want to be clear.

I find him, I agree with you. I think he's scary.

I don't, it strikes me that someone can sit there and say these things and then you go back and look at the tape of what they said 24 months ago and they just have absolutely no problem saying it.

But from a pure brand standpoint, he's, I think, a solid Marines, good looking, very good on camera,

brings the average age way down of the ticket. I think it's a good pick for Trump.
He'll be able to take on a Kamala Harris, too, in a debate if they ever have one, if there ever is one.

Anyway, the idea of a 39-year-old person without any experience possibly being president, as you said, there's a chance that any of these candidates, since they're so old from actuarial tables, could die in office.

And we'll get to the assassination, assassination, but this is just of old age we're talking about.

And so this guy could be president at a very young age. He attacked me on social media many times.
Really? Yes. Good for you.
He's a piece of work.

Anyway, I think he's an unpleasant, nasty piece of work. And he's pals with all the tech bros, you're correct.
And

very close to Don Jr. FYI, he was Don Jr.'s choice.

Moving on to our main story, which is obviously President Biden calling for the country to lower the temperature in our politics in the Oval Office address following the Trump assassination attempt.

The shooting at a rally in Pennsylvania killed one man, injured Trump, and critically wounded two others. Thomas Matthew Crooks, the 20-year-old shooter, was killed by Secret Service snipers.

It was very close, actually. Senior FBI officials said Sunday that agents were investigating the shooting as a possible domestic terrorism attack, and they're still determining the motive.

They can't seem to find any. The Republican National Convention will proceed as planned this week.
It's already ongoing, according to Trump campaign and RNC officials.

You know, this is sad.

This is sad, although the temperature temperature is really hot.

And this kid was sort of a nondescript, lonely loner, possibly bullied, math geek kind of person. She liked to shoot rifles.

He registered a Republican. He gave some money, allegedly, to the Democrats for a very small amount of money.
So it's not clear, but he was a registered Republican. So confusing.

No social media information that they can find. They're trying to get in his phone.
Not a lot of friends. Initial thoughts?

Well, obviously there's a lot here. And whenever this happens,

it's an awful look for America. It threatens democracy because autocracy is a small group of people trying to, you know, taking power.

And this is, you know, the assassins are essentially, or assassination attempts are essentially one person trying to change the course of history.

very destabilizing. You know, world wars have been started with this type of thing.
So, and also you just hate to think that we're that nation again, right? And

so it's, it's awful. And I think actually President Biden has been quite eloquent on it, trying to say, you know, we need to turn the temperature down.

The thing I find disappointing, though, is that, first off, the temperature is not going to go down.

The notion you've already seen Republican, elected Republican officials blame it on DEI. And I put out a thing saying, no, this was clearly the fault of Obamacare.
They did. I thought that was smart.

And this is what we're ignoring. Oh, it's DEI.
Okay, that's just fucking crazy. Most people won't believe that.
More people say it's a function of the rhetoric and the intensity of the exchange.

I don't think that's the reason this happened either. If you look at this kid's background, I don't think there's anything to indicate he was some sort of radical, politically motivated person.

I think he's the same as almost every shooter, and that's the following.

He's a young man who is struggling, who is trying in an attempt to recapture social status, who has access to to weapons of war.

That's what this is.

It's the AR 15 that he used. I don't know if this qualifies as a mass shooting, but again, the notion somehow that we're going to turn down the volume,

there are other nations, Western nations, or the political parties where the rhetoric is very incendiary. There are other nations where there are young men who struggle with mental illness.

There are other nations with too many single-parent homes. There are other nations where there aren't enough institutions.

The difference is we have a lot of these struggling young men, except that the variable here is they have access to weapons of war. And this could have been much worse if the kid was a better shot.

So I think, again, DEI and the tone of our dialogue are nothing but misdirects.

This is about access to weapons of war. And also mental illness, you know, or loneliness.
And, you know, not to be sympathetic to this kid, but I felt so sad when I saw

when I saw that picture, I was like, oh, him, that kid. right?

Didn't you? You're like, that kid. We knew that kid, right? I mean, it's just,

you just, that's the thing. We know who this, we know who these people are before we knew who they are.

When I heard about this, I'm like, it's a young man who has no, who, who, who's been socially isolated and in an attempt to recapture some sort of social status.

Yeah, no, interesting, no sign of mental illness. No, no, no, you know, a couple of these people, they were hospitalized or there was very, there was lots of warning, warning, warning, right?

In a lot of these school shootings and things like that. That one kid whose parents just got convicted, in this case, there wasn't.
This, the interviewing people around his school, oh, he seemed fine.

You know, he was nice, quiet, that kind of thing, but not scary. Yeah, I was really saddened.
And, you know, they were making a lot about them giving $15. I was like,

maybe he did. That's a good idea.
He was a registered Republican. Same thing.
I don't even think it matters to a registered Republican, although it takes an act for a young person.

He's not that political.

And again, we ignore that. There's no evidence.
Some people who are 20-year-old are political.

The vast majority, the vast majority of mass shooters, the day before the shooting would not be classified as mentally ill, or at least you wouldn't be able to

do anything.

So look,

mental illness, no doubt about it.

It's something we need to focus on, but using it as a misdirect from the real problem, it's just uses a a heat shield where people pretend all of a sudden to care about mental illness when they voted against this type of funding for more public places or counseling or what or suicide prevention, but they want to blame it on mental illness.

It's a misdirect. It's a misdirect.
It's 100%.

And also, one of the things that I think is interesting is the instantly, I think media did pull back, you know, a lot of like they weren't going to do Morning Joe in case they said the wrong thing because the right is blaming MSNBC.

I don't get that. What do you think of that? I think that's friggin bizarre.
Like, do your work, do your job. Like, don't like, they're scared of saying the wrong thing.

They're scared of saying the wrong thing, and which is ridiculous. Because I'll tell you, the right didn't wait for a second.
You had Marjorie Taylor Greene doing

pedos and communists where they did this. I was like, hey, it was a 20-year-old, sad, 20-year-old kid who wanted attention, who thought he'd get away with it, I think, in some fashion.

The fact that he had such a clear shot was, I found, disturbing for all political candidates, right? That he, especially presidential ones, like, whoa, boy, this kid was on a roof that was so obvious.

Yeah, there were pictures of him before the shots. I sort of was like, I could secure this perimeter better than the Secret Service at this point.

You know,

I agree. The charge rhetoric and polarization, I think, are part of it, a little bit of it.
And Donald Trump is, you know, I think Biden is so much less

charge rhetoric than Donald Trump

in every regard. He did, unfortunately, say bullseye last week, but that's a common thing.
People always use shooting metaphors in politics,

and shouldn't, but we all do it and we shouldn't, we should think about it. And Donald Trump talks about carnage and bloodbath all the time.
It's just, I'm not so sure that that was it at all.

I just don't, you know, I don't know. Maybe it was, maybe a little bit.

I would bet like the majority of me actually were going to find out that the kid. I mean, the kid wasn't involved in institutions.
People,

he had very few connections, a loner, kept to himself. And I don't think we're going to find that he was like on message boards, totally

freaked out about Trump.

Everyone will try and find the easy solution or the solution that makes the other guy look bad rather than facing the hard work of the following.

We needed to invest more in institutions and give young people more opportunity and create early warning systems that show more empathy for young people, specifically young men.

And for God's sakes, we can't, when they have these episodes, give them easy access to weapons of war.

But no, we're going to say it's DI or it's

tongue. Let me get to that.
Social media is flooded with misinformation, conspiracy theories, especially X, of course. And Elon Musk keeps touting that he's real media now.
He's not real media.

He's a piece of,

anyway.

Elon Musk and some other tech business leaders using their megaphones to criticize the Secret Service diversity initiatives and making unsubstantiated claims about the shooting, just like they did with that guy who got killed in San Francisco.

Wrong, wrong. He's not Antifa.

He also formally endorsed Trump after the shooting, as did Bill Ackman, because they couldn't have the spotlight away from them for a New York minute.

Meanwhile,

SpaceX rocket had a catastrophic failure. Maybe he should have focused on his businesses.

He's pulling back in the Robo-Taxi area. None of his businesses matter at this point.
It just wants to be the focus of attention.

Do you think that matters at all, these kind of things online? Theories and stuff like that? False flag? I think they're really unhelpful.

And I think your take's the right one.

This is awful. It's awful for everybody.
This should be a bipartisan,

you know,

this makes society less safe. And so this is, I believe, the first assassination attempt on a president since Reagan.
But it gives you that sense of that fear that our society is collapsing. Yeah.

And then

this BS notion, and

I think the president's more authentic about this, that we need to tone down the rhetoric. Okay, I get it.
That's not going to happen.

And

nobody wants to deal with the real problem. But also, I hate to say this, but it's true.
He's going to be, I bet in the next poll that comes out, I think he might be up by double digits.

That image of him pumping his fists with blood on his face with an American flag above him is going to be the most iconic image of 2024, if not the last decade. He really knew what to do.

You got to give the guy credit for his instincts. Look,

the thing that summarizes what is so dangerous or upsetting

for Democrats right now is the following. I have

a friend, I'd even call him a good friend in Florida. He's a real estate broker.
He's this lovely young man, just a beautiful family. He's so likable, so good at what he does.

And we're friends with them. They're Trumpers.
We just don't talk about it. They're very religious.
Nothing wrong with that. He posted on his Instagram feed yesterday an image.

And I don't know if you've seen this image of Donald Trump with a visage, an image of Jesus standing behind him with his hands on his shoulders

as if he was the chosen one. Yeah, I know.

That's a long time thing, but it got even worse. And God descended.
Oh, my God. They believe this guy is the chosen one.
Yeah, it's interesting.

One of the parents of Sandy Hook, because I think Marco Rubio said God, you know, was protecting Trump. And one of the parents said, oh, yes, they weren't protecting.
God wasn't protecting our kids.

Like, what is wrong with you? Like, you know,

there's the chosen one. Yeah, there is that idea.

I mean, I think him, it's interesting because people on both sides of the political spectrum are sharing theories, the false flag, claiming the picture was staged.

He certainly was fast on his feet, so to speak. Yeah, Yeah, it wasn't staged.

There's ridiculous theories on both sides, the worst on the right, but I don't know if you heard, but right before Melania gave her public statement, she was heard yelling into a phone, you had one job.

Too soon?

Too soon? I like a joke. My favorite joke was from someone where they said,

let's hope it's not a time traveler from the future who can't shoot. It was something like that.
Anyway. Oh, no.

The truth is, I mean,

probably the most likely conspiracy theory is the Democratic Party ordered a hit, but they used Timu for it. They used Timu, and it was.

All right, we'll stop with the jokes.

You know, it's really interesting because there are, there's a lot of them on the left, too, with this, like, where the bullet thing and whether it was glass from the, whatever, the teleprompter.

I don't care. He got attacked, people.
Like, they're called Blue Anon. They're called Blue Anon.
No one wants to deal.

with the reality that we and our nation are producing too many depressed, lonely young men. As, you know, someone wrote me, as you sow, so shall we reap.

I'm like, I don't think you want that to be your take.

But I'm telling you, Kara, if we don't, I was just, I just did a podcast with Senator Al Franken on his podcast. If we don't,

you know, I mean, it's hard to tell. I believe if we don't announce a new nominee and take some oxygen out of the room here and shift the narrative really quickly,

I think we're just going to get crushed because there's just no getting around it. This This helps Trump, who is already up a great deal.

And unless we, like the day before the convention ends, announces that he's stepping down and we announce a series of debates or something, this is just, it's just, it's quite frankly, Karen, we don't want to admit it, this is running away from us.

It's running away from us.

And then, of course, by the way, finally, the news broke a few hours ago that Judge Eileen Cannon dismissed the classified documents case against Trump.

In a ruling Monday, Cannon said the appointment of a a special counsel, Jack Smith, violated the Constitution. I wonder if she's ever read it.

Her argument is that because Smith was not named as special counsel by the president or confirmed by the Senate, his appointment is in violation of the Constitute's appointment clause.

It's not true, Eileen. I can read, and I'm not even a lawyer.

This will be certainly appealed, and they will win.

This woman's been slapped down by conservative, very conservative courts because she's really, I don't know what else to say, but legally incompetent.

It'll get reversed, but you know, it's his toughest case, the strongest of the four criminal cases.

they probably will have a new judge on this one, but it will, it will take forever. This woman's been reversed,

I think, twice before, and she seems like a suck up. I, everyone thinks that.
All the lawyers, even the conservatives, are like, she's dumb. She's dumb.
Um, but it helps Trump.

Trump's got Trump's got some sort of luck happening with him. I'll tell you.
He's on a roll, but I do think, I do think she's transparently outed herself for someone who should not sit on the bench.

But still, just delays it, delay, delay, delay, and obfuscate. That's really pretty much how it works.
And it works for people.

And that's where it'll go. So Trump's got quite a week.
Let's just say he had quite a week of

activities around him. He definitely doesn't

disappoint on the news front, I'll tell you. But I agree.
Let me just say one thing. News people should not pull back on covering it.
I'm sorry.

It's a terrible thing that he was shot, but he still has a record. He's still, you know, they should be covering both candidates strongly and toughly.
It's terrible.

We'll learn more, hopefully, about the kid. We should take a breath.
I think it doesn't hurt to call to turn down the volume or the rhetoric. It won't.
Let's get back to the good work of ensuring that

2025 is not season seven of The Handmaid's Tale. It's a get past the hurt.
That's exactly right. Exactly.
I don't look good in red anyway. All right, let's go on a quick break.

You had some flight delays earlier today, so I spoke with our friend of Pivot, David Pluff. Without you, we'll hear that in the interview next.

Support for the show comes from Odo. Running a business is hard enough, and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other.

One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting.

Before you know it, you find yourself drowning in software and processes instead of focusing on what matters, growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in.

It's the only business software you'll ever need. Odo is an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything.
That means CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more.

No more app overload, no more juggling logins, just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part is that Odo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.

It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process.

It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odo.com.
That's odoo.com.

Support for the show comes from Odo. Running a business is hard enough, and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other.

One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting.

Before you know it, you find yourself drowning in software and processes instead of focusing on what matters, growing your business. This is where Odo comes in.

It's the only business software you'll ever need. Odoo is an all-in-one fully integrated platform that handles everything.
That means CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more.

No more app overload, no more juggling logins, just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part is that Odo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.

It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process.

It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odo.com.
That's odoo.com.

Support for the show comes from Odo. Running a business is hard enough and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other.

One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting.

Before you know it, you find yourself drowning in software and processes instead of focusing on what matters, growing your business. This is where Odo comes in.

It's the only business software you'll ever need. ODU is an all-in-one fully integrated platform that handles everything.
That means CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more.

No more app overload, no more juggling logins, just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part is that Odo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.

It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process.

It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odu for free at odoo.com.
That's odoo.com.

A quick note, I taped this interview with David Pluff earlier before Trump had selected J.D. Mance to run as his vice presidential candidate.
Okay, we're back with our friend of Pivot, David Plough.

He was the campaign manager for former President Barack Obama. You might have heard of him, as well as a White House senior advisor.

He's currently co-hosting the campaign managers podcast with Kellyanne Conway, and he and I have had some differences about this. We're going to get into it.

David, welcome. Thank you for coming.
Great to be with you, Kara. So let's first talk about the effect the Trump assassination attempt will have on the presidential race.

I hate to like do it in only those terms because it seems like that's it's sort of like the horse racey kind of thing, but it's obviously a major event. We're in the middle of a presidential cycle.

I'd love you sort of be a little more thoughtful than he's going to get more votes or whatever. Just how do you look at it when you first heard about this? Well, super scared for the country, Kara.

And you're right. I think hopefully voices will be lowered a little bit, even with our fierce disagreements.

And this will be the last political violence we have in this country for a very, very long time. So that's one question is, are things really going to change?

You know, we'll get a sense of that, a very good sense from the Trump side in Milwaukee this week.

You know, he just put out a true social post that seemed to suggest that unity for him meant getting rid of all the investigations and not criticizing him. That's obviously not unity.

So I think that I do know from the research I've seen with voters, you know, if Donald Trump were to signal that he might be a little bit different than the first term, you know, maybe a little bit more magnanimous, maybe admit that he lost the election, it'd go a long way.

From a mathematical state, so there's there's how both sides handle it. I do think the discussion about replacing Biden freezes for three or four days.
I don't think it goes away, but it freezes.

So that's important. I look at it a couple ways.
Are there people who were either truly undecided or leaning Biden or RFK that are now going to vote for Trump? I don't think there's not many of them.

There's some, particularly if he handles this in a way that surprises people. The other point is turnout.
Is it going to help wound the Republican turnout? And my strong suspicion is it will.

There's a lot of people out there that, even if they said, hey, if I had to vote, I'd vote for Trump, but I'm not really, I don't think I'm going to vote.

This probably gives them more of a reason to do. And we see in every poll, it's fascinating change because American politics has changed in this regard.

It used to be a high turnout election would benefit Democrats, low turnout, Republican. All the polls suggest the lower the turnout on this race, the better for Biden.

So if Trump can actually create higher turnout, that helps him. But my big answer is: who the hell knows? This is unprecedented.

And I think we have to let quite a few few days if not weeks settle before we get a sense of that and it is like an ongoing trump tv show in a lot of ways obviously trump's the star of this um obviously he just got off uh right now in florida on the documents case for now at least for now let's just say probably will be overturned on appeal because this judge is that's what happens to this particular strange little Florida judge.

But talk the idea of him changing. Like I see that a lot.
And I've noticed the media really pulled back its horns quite a bit. And I know they are doing that.

His

subordinates and his surrogates are not doing that. And he is not going to do that from my perspective.
I think they'll take advantage of that, of the indignation.

I've heard the word they did this to him. And I'm like, it's a young, 20-year-old, troubled Republican young man.
But I don't think Republic even matters with this kid.

I think he was just troubled in many ways. Exactly.
Well, Kara, I agree with you. My point is, as a political practitioner,

if Donald Trump somehow were to send real cues to people that this has changed me a little bit,

what if he actually said, listen, I was really upset I lost to Joe Biden. I think he's old and frail.
But okay, I'm running against him because he clearly won and I'll respect these election results.

I think I'll win. Will he do that? No.
It'd actually be a really smart thing for him to do. Will he stop talking about Hunter Biden? He won't do any of those things.

Now, I will say this, having been responsible for conventions in the past, every word that a speaker says from that stage has been vetted by the Trump campaign. So

they have complete and total control. So we'll know how seriously they are about just talking about immigration and inflation and foreign policy and not the personal attacks.

And of course, Donald Trump's rise back in 15 and 16 and till now was largely fueled by embrasive violence rhetoric, you know, attacking Muslims, attacking Hispanics.

By the way, then there were copycat murders and assaults, right, that those people said were because Donald Trump told them to. So this would go against everything we know about him.

So my sense is this sense that I saw Axios wrote today that, well, we really believe this has changed him. We'll see.
I hope it has. I highly doubt it.

And I think we'll be right back in the political sewer, you know, before too long. We can all wish otherwise.
I'm just seeing the surrogates.

I'm watching like Marjorie Taylor Greene is back to pedophiles and copies

and Elon Musk. Well, J.D.
Vance, who's on the short list, you know, basically Joe Biden for this. So, you know, we'll see.
By the way, I mean, I don't know who the hell Donald Trump's going to pick.

Maybe it's somebody none of us are really talking about. But if he picks J.D.
Vance, that would strongly suggest that he's going to double down on everything he's done to date. Right.

Well, he could put him in the cabinet or whatever else he could do with him or keep him in the Senate. One of the things that's interesting is the idea of emboldenment.

I think when you get shot at and you miss, If you have a narcissistic personality disorder, you might think you're a god, correct? That would be my

inclination for someone like this. Well, we don't know what he thinks.
Certainly, that's been what a lot of his supporters say that this was an act of providence.

And obviously, listen, we should all be so grateful because he has a father, a grandfather. Most importantly, we don't want anybody to get killed in this country.

It is interesting, again, this is an IAR-15 that a lot of Republican lawmakers wear

IAR-15 buttons. Not the same outrage when young kids are slaughtered.
But obviously, if Donald Trump had been assassinated, I mean, the country would be completely torn apart more than it is.

So, you know, at the end of the day, I think, you know,

he was convicted.

You think being a convicted felon would change you. He now survives an assassination attempt.
We'll see.

He is, you know, been truly and completely a narcissist in his behavior, not just in his political life, in his whole life. We'll see.
I mean, again, A sane person might say, I'm leading right now.

And there's no question he is. He's got a small lead.
I am leading in the race for president. I could avenge my loss in 2020.

So let's gather as a team and talk about all the things I could do to further my advantage and chances. That just doesn't seem to be how he rolls.
Kindness would be. Kindness would go a long way.

Right. Something.
And I'm not overstating it. He's still Donald Trump, but just some acknowledgement and some

like cue to swing voters and even some of the Republican voters who aren't sure they want to vote for him that like, listen, I'm going to govern a little bit differently.

I don't expect that to happen. But, you know, sometimes getting to 50% of the vote or 48% of the vote in this case does take rocket science.

You know, right now for him, makes me sad as a Democrat, less so. And so you should be in the business of addition, growing your market share.
And that has never been seen what he's interested in.

But I do think right now he's got a moment to potentially do that. Would it be just him and then just the surrogates get mean? Or

how does that run in these? I mean, I don't know how a convention runs. You've always been in the middle of one.
Well, listen, I think consistency is really important.

So I would have your surrogates this week and going forward basically not depart too much from what he says.

But again, my suspicion is maybe by Thursday night, he'll be back to the same old Donald Trump. But if not, certainly by the next Thursday.
And they'll all be back to, you know, basically pedophiles.

And, you know, Democrats are trying to ruin the country. Don't forget in the debate, you know, Donald Trump said Joe Biden would destroy America, has destroyed America.
He's not been subtle.

And that creates anger and division.

So I, but i think listen having run campaigns what you want is every ad you know that you're responsible for everybody giving a speech on your behalf every message you want it to be consistent two reasons one is it's hard to reach people so you want to definitely repeat repeat repeat until you're sick of it but two you don't want people coloring outside the line so hope would work hope worked for you that's right but like what will frustrate me if there's a sense oh you know trump you know he's trying but it's all these surrogates he's got complete and total control.

I just want your listeners to understand that. You don't leave anything to chance in a presidential campaign.
Talk about the visuals. Which are the visuals?

The last ones were pretty dark, as I recall. Yes.
And megalomaniacal with the shadow and the whole thing. Yeah, very, very Uber 1.0, Kara, actually.

It's very Travis Kalanik.

You know, I think there's, I've always been a fan of having as many people as possible, people behind you, people on the video stages, the lighting being a little bit upbeat.

I think it's a great point. And convention people spend a lot of time on this.
So, again, if the visuals are overly dark, it's not by accident.

And so, you know, listen, if I were Trump, I'd have a bunch of people speaking at the convention and say, listen, I voted for Biden four years ago. Here's why I'm not.

I hope Biden does the same thing in Chicago, assuming he's our nominee. So getting real people to speak about these issues rather than politicians, I think, is really important.

But the only two speeches that really matter this week will be Trump's and then his VPs. You know, the conventions are long, a lot of speakers, but the networks only cover the major speakers.

Although there's always one that sticks out, right? I mean, Obama, that's Obama got on the radar. Your keynote can stick out, right? Somebody can surprise you.
But so at most, it's three. Who else?

Cuomo Clinton, but that was for negative reasons. He overcame that.
He gave like a three-hour speech back in 80s. No, before Obama was Obama, he gave that speech.
Oh, it was critical to his ride.

That's the same thing. That's correct.
There could be one of those. There could be on both sides.
We'll see who Biden picks for the keynote.

I hope it's somebody in their 30s, maybe even their 20s, who will excite people.

But I think that the major thing, and

far and away, it'll be Trump's speech. And because of what happened Saturday night, there's going to be a lot more interest in Trump's speech than there would have been.

I'm just curious, who would you pick for the keynote?

Well, if I were him, I'd pick a young, diverse voice from Battleground State if you could. I think Biden should do the same thing.

I mean, we've got some really, whether it's Josh Shapiro, the youngish, youngish governor of Pennsylvania, Jasmine Crockett, I think the really dynamic congresswoman, Mark Kelly could be interesting from Arizona.

But we've got a lot of talent. By the way, that's one thing that's been revealed in this discussion about should Biden stay the nominee or not.

Obviously, I think if he doesn't, Kamala Harris will likely be it. But we've got a lot of talent out there, man.
We've got a better bunch than we've had in a long time. Absolutely.

So that's exciting, not just for 28, but for the convention. So when you're thinking of the vice presidential pick, do you, for him, do you, is there, does it really matter?

So historically, if you look at all of them, they matter very little uh you know voters are choosing the presidential candidate they're not voting for number two palin hurt mccain because it spoke to poor judgment mccain was already voters thought was he a little erratic this added to that bush was able to overcome the first bush the quail pick back in 88 but it caused some turbulence for the campaign so i don't think it matters that much i i will say there's a difference between even though they share the same policies a rubio let's say and a jd vance JD Vance is, we saw from his statement after the assassination attempt Saturday.

He's on the further. Now, it's all bullshit.
You've talked to him. I've talked to him.
You know, he didn't believe any of this stuff a few years ago, but this is the role he's playing now.

And so I do think for some voters, they, but by the way, because Trump's 78, you know, there's also questions of, hey, if he's elected, there's a decent chance he won't make his full term.

And I don't say that because of an assassination attempt, just health. So I, but how much does it matter? Not that much.

I think it probably is the most overcovered story in American politics as it relates to the campaign. It greatly matters in terms of the judgment of this person.

And if something were to happen to them, is this a good qualified person? By the way, it also says Rubio is probably a lot more qualified to be president than J.D. Vance is.
Oh, 100%.

So, before you just mentioned age, before the shooting, all eyes were on Biden. That was the story.
Now it's just swirled out of the situation and it will be swirled out for the next week at least.

Do Democrats still try to get him to step aside? Is that still an ongoing debate? I know

your former partner, David Axelrod, is working at the sorry.

Well, it's a great question. I think it freezes for a little bit.

And, you know, last week seemed like 12 weeks, right? There was part of last week where it looked like Biden had settled things down. Then it really, a bunch of people came out against him.

Then after the press conference, people like James Clyburn said, okay, I'm fully for Biden. So I think he's probably going to survive this.
I think that there's, but, but to to me, this is healthy.

I know it's not, I don't like seeing it. He's so livelier, isn't he? Well, my point is, like, this is a big decision for the country and our party.

And I think that what he said in the press conference, you know, did say, if my team tells me I can't win, I won't run. Now, Jennel Malley Dillon, I can speak to.
I know her very well.

I'm sure she's telling Biden exactly where the race stands. I can't speak to other people.
I hope they are as well. He's losing.
Like he was losing pre-debate. He's losing now.

Would you say it's impossible for Joe Biden to win? You'll never say that. So I think he'll hold on to that.
And he has defied history in the past.

But, you know, Donald Trump right now has probably a three to five point lead in the battleground states in a couple of states out west, maybe a little bit more than that. That's deeply concerning.

Now, does that mean Kamala Harris or another Democrat would automatically switch that? No, there's risk in any, I think, situation here. But you got to understand

what caused a lot of the unrest last week was Democrats running for the Senate and running for the House got their own polls back.

And they didn't like what they see because Biden has slipped. And a lot of them can probably perform two to

four points better than Biden, but they can't overcome Biden losing eight to 10 points. You know, there's been polls suggesting New York and California are a lot closer than we'd like.

And if we don't have the top of the ticket doing well enough in those states, we won't win the House, which could be really important in a scenario where Trump were to win, sadly.

So I think the conversation will continue.

but the other thing is you know joe biden is going to do some interviews this week even though the campaign's controlling curtailing their activity he's in this very unenviable position where every public appearance is going to be judged really intensely and there's clearly if he has another really bad moment i think there'll be more democrats to come out and say he ought to withdraw but but the clock's ticking here kara we got a couple weeks we got a couple weeks probably and do you think that's a good thing well it's just the calendar right we don't need to do the roll call virtually anymore so i i i don't see why we would do that.

Let's let it go to August. But, you know, at the end of the day, we do have to get on with winning the race.

And if it's Joe Biden, what I think you'll see is even Democrats who said they wished he wouldn't run will get on board. I think he'll have surrogates in the battleground states.

He'll have people in ads for them making the case. But Democrats should make no mistake.
It brings me

real pain to say this. This is the worst position a Democratic presidential candidate has been in since

1988.

That's just a fact. That was Bush Dekakis, where Dekakis actually led.
But once we get into the summer, you know, Bush opened up a league. This is the worst position.

Doesn't mean Joe Biden can't win, but what drives me crazy is when people suggest that, you know, well, it's bad polls or look at this poll or we got to deal with truth here.

And it's not just the polls. His approval ratings in the mid-30s, almost 80% of the electorate's not sure he's up for the job.
He's got to answer those questions. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Talk a little bit about the involvement of tech people. There's a, there's sort of a double, there's a, there's a split in the tech group.

There's the Reed Hoffman's, Mark Cuban side, I'd say, and then the Elon Musk and his stance, essentially. Bill Ackman is in that little, sad little gang with him.

Talk a little bit about the impact of that because after the shooting, you know, when all the Democrats were trying to be nice, they immediately attacked, immediately said it was a, you know, it was an Joe Biden ordered it or that it was DEI or whatever.

They just continued on the same nonsensical bullshit that they tend to like to do constantly, but it was repetitive and it kept going.

Talk a little bit about, and then they decided to, because they're a narcissist, both Bill Ackman and Elon Musk, they had to like say, we declare for him

because they couldn't have the eye off of each of themselves at any one moment. Talk, is that important or not at all? Or just a lot of rich people, cosplaying, powerful people?

I think it's very much the latter, Kara.

Let me give you one historical example, and it's a long time ago, but back in 2012 when Obama was running pre-re-election, you'll remember we had a really tough economy, high unemployment rate,

you know, but we were starting to recover, really tough race against Romney. So, you know, we were trying to research every way we could talk about the economy, and some of that's validator.

So, best would be someone who worked at an auto plant saying, I only still have a job because Barack Obama stepped in and saved us. Great.
But it was also, could we talk to business leaders?

And, you know, a lot of the tech community supported us back then.

So we talked to voters in states like Ohio and Wisconsin and said, okay, what if these tech loaders said Obama, they trust him to steward the economy? What would that mean to you?

And they said, it would actually. either mean nothing or it would hurt him because those people don't employ jobs in my community.
They're very wealthy. They're disconnected from the real world.

So I don't think it's going to have any impact with voters. Will they raise a bunch of money? Yes.

And that helps a little bit on the margins, but money matters less than a presidential campaign. So I think they think they have more prominent voices than they do politically.

They have Trump's here, and that's not unimportant because if he wins, they'll be in the Oval Office and they'll be talking about. It's critical to Musk or else.

Well, and Musk, listen, you know, he's one of the most dangerous people on the planet right now. There's no question about that.

He's really become not just unhinged,

but really deeply anger and driving hugely dangerous and

wrong accusations against immigrants, against women. It's really awful.
Yeah. Well, if Biden Biden wins, Musk loses badly.
I suspect he's on the downward slope. If Trump wins, he's safer for sure.

Maybe. I mean, we'll see.

What's interesting to me, I mean,

let's talk about business for a minute.

I'm amazed, and it's already hurting him, but like, you know, if you think about the people who are thinking within a week's time about purchasing an electric vehicle, it wouldn't be hard to run a campaign against Musk to make sure you remind people they tend to be more progressive, more upper income.

What he said, you have better options. Like it is, it is malpractice of the highest order from a business standpoint.
That's my personal opinion.

But their voices in politics, will a swing voter in Wisconsin really matter what these narcissistic tech bros say? I highly doubt it. Yeah.
Do you regret your time doing tech?

I mean, I'm sure you've advised different tech people now, but

how do you look at what happened with you there? Just for people that know, David worked for Uber.

Yeah, I worked for Uber and then I spent, you know, I still spend some time helping the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative.

So philanthropy, no, I'm very proud about what the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative does in science and education. Also, Donald Donald Trump threatened Mark Zuckerberg, but go ahead.

You know, right, Zuckerberg's insanity. All Mark and Priscilla were trying to do was help voting during COVID.

And by the way, every county, including every Red County, could access that money and many did. You know, my time at Uber, I don't regret it.

Obviously, there were some cultural challenges there that, you know, were a shock to me and were hard to manage through.

But I look at Uber and, you know, particularly, you know, under DARA, there's been agreements with labor unions. There's healthcare benefits being offered in some states.

Like, I think a really mature way to evolve the business. But no, it's a source of work.
It's a source of transportation. It's a source of how you develop cities.

And to me, it was almost like getting, I don't want to overstate this, but kind of a faux PhD in the cities of the world, how they work, how they employ people, how you interact with public transportation.

So I don't, the one thing I did find, and this isn't just about Uber generally, I think there's a lot of people who lead those companies, certainly, but some who work with them that almost pretend that they're not a business first, that they're doing societal good, they're a charity, and they're all businesses, right?

Don't ever forget that, don't confuse, right? They're heroes in their own and I think somebody player one. I don't know if you understand that, yeah.

I love that book, but yeah, you know, so I think that's changed a little bit.

Um, but but I think it's it's hard when you're told you're changing the world first, as opposed to, hey, we're building a business that we think has some good societal impacts.

It's hard when you get criticized, no different than politicians. I found some of the most thin-skinned people I've ever dealt with are big financiers on Wall Street.

They just can't take the criticism.

But I don't listen. We know our world's going to continue to be shaped by technology.
You've been an amazing chronicler of that.

Whatever you think about AI, you need to get as smart as you can about it. And to have as much as a front row seat to some of the changes in our economy is important.

Now, you do a great job of criticizing those that could be harmful, the leaders that aren't stepping up and doing the right thing from a leadership standpoint. But we can't hide from it.

It's here to stay,

whether it's quantum computing or whether it's AI. I mean, listen, what's happening in battlefields in both the Middle East and Ukraine and Russia, warfare is going to be completely changed.

And we have to understand this. And this is one thing that does depress me about a lot of the presidential campaign to date.

They didn't talk about AI, didn't talk about quantum computing, things that are going to define the next few decades. I'd love to see these candidates talk more of that.
Well, they're not going to.

It's not that important. Maybe they'll be forced to, yes.
Maybe they'll come on your podcast. They absolutely don't understand it and they don't and they are not equipped to do so.

Let me finish up asking you about, you know, you and I had a back and forth about Kelly Conway. I have so much regard for you and I do not have regard for her, I'll be honest with you.

And you talk about getting along, this whole thing right now, everyone's like, we got to turn down, we got to get along. I find you to be a very responsible, respectful, honest person.

I do not think the same of her. I think she constantly is manipulating things in a very similar way, the idea, the words, used and stuff.
So talk to me about why you decided to do this this podcast.

I'm going to be as open-minded as possible. And just so you know, this week I had a long discussion with Ben Shapiro.
He and I had a, so I can talk to people like that.

Well, Karen, I appreciate you asking that. So I listen, I think, you know, modeling the fact that you can disagree without, you know, hating each other is important.

You know, that was something I learned from Barack Obama. But that's not the reason that I'm doing it.
For me, I had a podcast the last two years, last two election cycles, loved it.

Talk mostly to Democratic operatives. The Republicans I talked to were never Trumpers.

And I really thought to understand this election properly, both for myself and for listeners, you know, it's not shooting free throws.

And someone who understands Donald Trump, Donald Trump world, those voters is important.

And, you know, Kellyanne did not deny the election results, important for me, maybe small line, but she said Donald Trump lost, criticized his criticism of early voting.

So we're going to disagree about almost every policy. I'm sure I'll say things about Donald Trump she certainly won't like.
I know she'll say things about Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. I won't like.

But what I found is when we talk about practitioners, let's talk about battleground states. Let's talk about how each campaign is dealing with early voting.

You know, we'll talk this week about how you'd handle the RNC convention in the aftermath of the assassination attempt, how Joe Biden should campaign. I feel like there's something to be gained there.

And what I've heard from people is who've listened to it is like, listen, it's interesting because we all are in our information. You're both practicing.

Even as it relates to, yeah, so I think when we're as practitioners, there's something there because I like being on MSNBC. I like going on Hacks and Tap with my friend David Axerod.

But we kind of see the race in the same way.

And I find the more we can understand about, you know, how Donald Trump's run campaigns, how this one might be different, we understand the election a little bit differently. So that's why I did it.

And

I think that it's hopefully a service to people out there because I think that one of the reasons both parties are always surprised when they lose an election is their information streams tend to say,

don't believe this bad poll or we're going to be okay.

I mean, I'll never forget, God, back in 2012, which sounds like a quaint time, Republicans, including Mitt Romney, were shocked that he lost because Fox News, in particular, those last 60 days were just like, Obama is going to lose.

Obama's going to lose. And I think the same thing can happen on our side.
So I think that that's why I did it is for me personally to better understand 360 degrees of this election.

I thought I needed to talk to someone, not from the Never Trump side of the Republican Party, but from the Trump side, but someone someone who's a practitioner and Kelly Ann led a presidential campaign.

She's a pollster. You know who I'd love to see you do a podcast with is Susie Wiles.
That's just fast. Well, by the way,

I'm sure, you know, Tim Alberta from The Atlantic had this amazing story with Susie Wiles and Chris La Savito. She's the campaign manager, just like David was.

Highly worth reading. It's a much more professional outfit.

Doesn't mean I think some of what they said was bullshit and bluster, but, you know, two smart professionals leading, and that's important to know. Yeah, absolutely.
All right, last question.

When you are looking in the wake of all of what's happened this year, everyone uses the word unprecedented, right? Do you think these are unprecedented times or just times?

Because we have a sort of a lack of historical knowledge in this country. We forget it goes down a memory hole, and that's that.

To me, when you start to look at history, some of this feels very, it certainly rhymes, history rhymes. I agree with you, Kara.
I think we're just going through times.

And I actually, one thing I've observed of the last couple of decades is the things that would have been in prior times like massive and they'd be in the news for weeks and we'd all be reading and seeing the same things and talking about, they move on more quickly.

Like even this assassination attempt. you know, a week from now may not be as heavily discussed on social media.
So I think it's times.

I think this election might be unprecedented just because, okay, now you have an assassination attempt this close to the election.

You have an incumbent president who's being challenged within his party. You have a rematch.
That's quite unusual.

You have a lot of voters who actually disapprove of both candidates, so-called double haters. You've got an election where it seems like low turnout would help the Democrat.
Very unusual.

You've got Trump actually in polls anyway, doing better with young, black, and Hispanic voters in a way that would be somewhat unprecedented in modern times, but Biden actually showing real strength with older white voters.

So there's a bunch of strange things happening.

And so that's where I do say I have a lot of humility about this election because there is a lot of things happening that when they all collide together, we're not sure where it nets out.

So I think this election, if it's not unprecedented, it's really taxing the system in terms of some unusual circumstances. But I think the times we're living through are just times.

And I think I'm glad you call that out because I think that sometimes we can be narcissists about, no, this has never happened before. It's like, actually, it has.

There's real derangement from the right for sure

for a long time. And there's increasing derangement from the left.
Like, it's really, it's interesting.

Like, you can't have an opinion without it getting, and it could, of course, it just could be noise, online noise, which I think it is, which is why I'm.

Well, 70% of Americans, I think, you know, I can't remember if it was Pew or Gallup, but, you know, they term them the exhausted middle, where they actually agree on a lot of stuff, not all stuff.

They're not active in politics. And we know that, you know, the 20 to 30% of the folks in both parties that drive so much of the social engagement and

the attention,

you know, they are not part of that exhausted middle. And by the way, I think more on the left actually believe their issues and what they're fighting for.

I think on the right, there's an entertainment notion to it

that, you know, the crazier you can be, like MTG and others,

even in the aftermath of an assassination attempt, you know, they believe that they're better for it.

What is it, Madison Cawthorne, that one-term congressman from North Carolina, said, I'm not going to hire any legislative staff.

I'm just going to hire communications because it's basically a performance. And I think, sadly, too many people in that wing of that party believe that.

Yeah, well, he had quite a performance, as you recall. Anyway, we'll get into that.
He's gone. Good luck.
Good riddance, Madison. Anyway, David, thank you so much.

I really appreciate hearing from you. It's so nice to have some sensible talk.
Well, Kara, thank you.

And Kara, you are an interpreter for me about so much that's happened both in the world, generally, in tech specifically. So, thank you.
I appreciate it.

You know, for the tech people, you just said I have four children, so I'm really good at toddlers. Anyway,

anyway, on that note, thank you so much. All right, one more quick break and Scott and I will be back for Wins and Fails.

Support for the show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other.

One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting.

Before you know it, you find yourself drowning in software and processes instead of focusing on what matters, growing your business. This is where Odo comes in.

It's the only business software you'll ever need. Odo is an all-in-one fully integrated platform that handles everything.
That means CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more.

No more app overload, no more juggling logins, just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part is that Odo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.

It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process.

It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odo for free at odo.com.
That's odoo.com.

Support for the show comes from Odo. Running a business is hard enough, and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other.

One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting.

Before you know it, you find yourself drowning in software and processes instead of focusing on what matters, growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in.

It's the only business software you'll ever need. ODU is an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything.
That means CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more.

No more app overload, no more juggling logins, just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part is that Odo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.

It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process.

It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odo for free at odo.com.
That's odoo.com.

Support for today's show comes from Zoom. Work isn't just meetings, it's calls, chats, docs, emails, calendar invites, events, and more.

And Zoom brings it all together on one platform, everything flows together, so that you can finally focus on what matters.

With Zoom, ideas happen faster, projects move forward, and your workday finally works for you. Zoom is more than meetings.
It's a unified platform powering how people get work done.

Learn more at zoom.com slash podcast and zoom ahead.

Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. I have weird ones.

I thought the

court case against Alec Baldwin was just pure identity politics.

And when the prosecution has to call themselves as a witness to defend their handling of the case, I think if he'd been a young woman of color, I don't think this case would have been brought.

And I think he's a very unlikable old white guy.

But everything I read, it just, I'm not a lawyer, but it made absolutely no sense. to bring this case against him.
And I'm glad I thought, I thought the judge got this so right.

And she she was visibly angry at the prosecution. Yeah, she was.
She's a good judge. Some of these judges are so good.

Isn't she? She's so impressed.

No, but I was, anyways, I don't, and I have a story here.

I did a podcast with Alec Baldwin. He invited me on his podcast when I released my book.

It was like a year and a half ago. And he was so distracted, upset, didn't know his lines.
And

it was either his producer or my producer came on and said, we're really sorry, but Alec is.

This was right after he'd been charged. Oh, the second time or the first time? I don't know.
I forget if it was the,

but he just, the prosecution had just announced that they were, you know, going after him, essentially. And he was visibly so rattled, he couldn't get through the podcast.

And I don't, I don't blame him.

Also, he has 900 children, but go ahead. My fail was what strikes me as just the worst type of identity politics and putting the patriarchy on trial with no legal justification.

It seems very unlikable, but it seemed like a lot. Agreed.

The nice thing about the bench is we're supposed to say it doesn't matter. I mean, I think there should be a civil trial and someone should sue him and take money from them, but that's different.

I think he probably created an unsafe, sloppy. environment on that set.
Yeah, I don't.

Anyways,

I thought they got it right. I don't know if that's my fail or my win, but

my win is in my brand strategy class, the most popular session of my course is something called the brand you.

And I talk about using brand strategy principles as a means of being successful professionally and using it as a guidepost for your own life.

And I talk about very successful individuals who were outstanding at managing their own brand. And

I use three examples, Margaret Thatcher, Muhammad Ali, and I'll get to the third, but they have a few things. One, They demonstrate excellence.
They're just amazing at what they do.

There's nothing like excellence or having a great product in terms of a brand. They have very strong visual metaphors, whether it's

Margaret Thatcher's hairstyle or that knit pantsuit suit she would always wear, Muhammad Ali. They're incredible storytellers, incredible in terms of the medium.

You know, I am so pretty or telling, you know, poetry.

But more than anything, more than anything, they were so comfortable with themselves and their beliefs and their beliefs that they said, yeah, strip me of my medals. Fuck it.

This is against my religious values. I am not going to Vietnam.

Yeah, I don't care.

I don't care about the minors or the fact that everyone is demonizing me. This is bad for Britain.
They were comfortable with themselves and their own decisions.

And my third example of this brand strategy of being successful through deft use of your brand was Richard Simmons.

And Richard Simmons was, he actually didn't demonstrate that much excellence, but he had the fourth big feature, and that was empathy. And that is people want

people who, the fastest way to get someone to like you is to like them.

And when you're a public figure, and Bill Clinton was great at this.

I met Bill Clinton at a fundraiser, and he came up to me and he shook my hand and he said, I heard you were raised by a single mother too.

And he looked at me and he grabbed my hand, no joke, and he looked into my eyes and he said, it wasn't easy, was it?

Since then, I have raised money anytime the Clintons Clintons do anything such an easy lay oh my god oh that was it that's his thing he touched your arm didn't he empathy he does that he touches arms but let's go through all of them okay visual metaphor I'm at LaGuardia I'm at LaGuardia it's 30 fucking degrees outside And this guy takes off his overcoat and he's wearing a sweater, except it's not a sweater.

It's a tank top and backhair. And at the moment, I realize how horrific this is.
I also noticed the guy is wearing dolphin short shorts. Remember, dolphin shorts? Sure.

And K-Swiss with athletic socks.

And it's Richard Simmons. And I'm not exaggerating.

In the wild.

I'm not exaggerating, but this is like 10, 15 years ago. I'm not exaggerating.
The whole airport comes to a standstill. And all the TSA offers go, Richard.

And he like clears people away from him, steps back, throws his hands into the air, and goes, hello,

to the entire

airport. And the airport went electric.
And here's the thing about Richard Simmons. Empathetic.
Wanted obese kids, which he was, to be healthy. Good at what he did.
Visual metaphors.

Always wore those short shorts. Always wore that weird sparkly tank top and K-Swiss.

He was gay before it was cool.

He was like, I don't give a shit

what you think I should be or not be.

I am comfortable with who Richard Simmons. Richard Simmons is down with Richard Simmons.
All right. Okay.

Richard wasn't out, by the way. Just so you know, he just wasn't out.
Oh, he was. But he wasn't.
That was one of the issues the gays had. He wasn't.

In any case, listen, I'm not going to say a bad word about him. I don't care.
He was fantastic. And let's pour one out.
Anyways,

my win is the life and times of Richard Simmons.

But let's also pour one out for Dr. Ruth, who also died, who I love.
Wonderful. Speaking of someone who was who they were, I loved her.
I love Dr. Ruth.

And Shannon Doherty, who was Brenda on 90210, troubled, but it fascinated you, died sadly of cancer.

And Shelley Duvall. But you know what Dr.
Ruth, though, really says? What a wonderful place America is. Where else could Dr.
Ruth have immigrated?

She had this wonderful line. She said, basically, one and a half million Jewish children were killed, and it's up to me to help repair the world.
Yeah. She was a happy person.
She was was a happy

book. She was.
So where else would she have recognized the influence and success if she hadn't immigrated to America? I agree. I agree.
Anyway, all of them.

I'm glad you brought that up. All of them.

I hope you're all doing well. And I hope you and Luke Perry

are in the peach pit right now, Brenda.

Anyway,

I will do mine. My fail as we tape this.
Nearly 300,000 people are still without power on the Texas Gulf Coast. Today in Washington, it's close to 100 degrees, by the way, but there it's even hotter.

A full week after Hurricane Beryl slammed into the area, some 80% of those customers of Center Point Energy.

The power company has been notoriously slow to restore electricity, leading Governor Greg Abbott to threaten to, quote, to quote, impose my own requirements on Center Point that are geared to keeping the power on.

I would arrest them, Greg. People in southeast Texas have endured several days of triple-digit heat index without air conditioning.
Food is going bad.

This is, remember, this is the state where they had a massive statewide power outage during a deep freeze.

and room was freezing um same thing also by the way is happening up in vermont flooding massive flooding because of beryl uh they as it moved up the coast um it's just really reprehensible that they can't keep lights and energy on or get it on quickly after a this is an area of hurricanes they should have this a little better sorted out at this point so i feel terrible for all those people suffering in both uh texas and vermont my win uh is guess what i did scott i i took twitter off my phone.

Really? I'm not, I didn't, I didn't quit it because I don't want someone to take my thing because that fuck charts over there will take it. But I don't have it on my thing.

And I'm actually enjoying it. I'm getting news from news organizations, as I always do.
But now I don't immediately go and look there for news. It's an easier, it was my news.
It was my news thing.

And actually, I'm getting a lot of news on threads. I have to say, it's not that bad.
It's not my, I look at videos on.

fun videos on cooking videos on threads and and things that they do to build wood without nails and things like that, videos like that. But I have to say, I took it off.

I feel so much better, especially having this happen with Donald Trump. I'm so glad I wasn't there looking at all that ridiculous QAnon bullshit conspiracy theory.
And that's just Elon Musk.

You know what I mean? I'm so glad I didn't do it. I feel good about it.
I feel good.

I feel like you're that Native American at the end of one flew over the cuckoo's nest that literally is so strong, it pulls the sink up and he throws it through the window and escapes.

Yes, that's what I did. That's what I did.
That's what I've done. I still have my account.

As soon as he defaults and decides he was not cut out for media, insulted to someone responsible, we'll go back. Yeah, we'll go back.
I was glad to do that. And I actually did something.

Speaking of community and doing things, I went to an Orioles game. I'm wearing an Orioles hat right now.
That's a really cool hat. I was wondering where that hat is from.
I will send you one.

It was fun. We went to Baltimore, which is a city that I just love.
It's so charming and interesting. We went for dinner.
We walked around. We went to the aquarium.

We went to the Italian section of there. And then we went to a game.
It was so nice. Everyone out.
Sounds like a very American day. It was really great.

I have to say, it makes you feel so much better. I feel 100% better not being on Twitter and actually going to a baseball game, even though I have no interest in sports.
But I got a hat.

Anyway, Scott, I'm seeing you're changing me, Scott. You're changing me.
Well, welcome. Welcome to Twitter Rehab.
It feels really good. Yeah, thanks.
It does. You didn't ask about my weekend.

What did your weekend? What did you do? You were in London, right? Literally 18 hours ago, I was watching

Spain win or beat Team England

at the Olympic Stadium in Berlin. It was great to get a look at that Olympic plaque.
1936, Jesse Owens won the gold medal. But Team Spain is just incredible.

They have probably the strongest young players. And Team England, the British fans love to shit post the team for some reason.
They did amazing this tournament.

But me and my youngest got our kits and we followed the team around. We went to Munich.
We watched the game in Dortmund and then we just went to the game in Berlin and it was just fantastic.

Germany is such a wonderful country. Every city I go to, Berlin's kind of got this edge and cool to it.
I did my favorite thing in the world. I did Big Fat Tire tour or Big Fat, or what's it called?

Fat Tire Bike Tour where you go to all these World War II

historical places, Hitler's bunker, these guard towers. And my 13-year-old pretended to be interested.
Did they have the bunker? They thought they got rid of the bunker.

The bunker is now a parking lot. They purposely wanted to make it as nondescript as possible.
They covered, that's that's right. And then when we went to the

Memorial for Murdered Jews and my son was asking me thoughtful questions about it, it was really just such a rewarding experience. And I absolutely love Germany.

And there's a lesson in here, and I apologize because I'm hijacking your win.

But Germany

has been for the last two or 300 years. One of the most liberal, progressive, accepting societies, a thriving gay community before it was cool.

Different religions welcome, except for a 12-year period. And it's just very strong memory, or I think a strong reminder for all of us to think that it can't happen in America ignores history.

1935 Germany or 1931, Germany, progressive, Jews welcome, celebrated academics, a thriving gay community. This shit can turn so fast.

And

by the way, Germany's turned back. Germany is now one of the most tolerant progressive nations in the world.
Some scary right-wing stuff going on.

Well, that's happening across all of Europe, but I would say on the whole, Germany gets a really outstanding grade for coming to grips with its history and

being a wonderful progressive nation, economic powerhouse, amazing manufacturing sector. And not only that, how can you not love...

I find in New York, things are either sequestered. There's either things for kids or in America.

You go to Disneyland, which is just awful for the parents, great for the kids, or you go go to a great bar, which is great for the adults, but kids aren't welcome.

Germany is the literally the threads the needle perfectly. They have beer gardens with trampolines.
Yeah. Well, unlike France, which does not like your kids any to be seen.

In any case,

it can happen here. And by the way, if you want to listen to a lot about that, you should listen to my interview with Rachel Maddow today that's on.

We do talk about Germany and how it tried to propagandize this country. It didn't work last time.
And now we're doing it all by ourselves. Anyway, we got to go.
We want to hear from you.

Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT.
All right, Scott. Auske Zeichnen.

I'm going to say it again. It means excellent in German.
Thank you. Farfer Nugen.

That's the only word you know. You need to, your wife speaks German.
Can you come up with some more moves in Farfer Nugen or not? Can you do that? Yeah, no.

Anyway, that's the show. We'll be back on Friday with more.
Please read us out. Today's show is produced by Larry Names, soy marcus, and Taylor Griffin.
Ernie Andrew Todd engineered this episode.

Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Mil Severio. Nashot Cura is Vox Media's executive producer of audio.
Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nmymag.com/slash pod.

We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Rest in peace, Shannon Doherty, Richard Simmons, and Ruth Westheimer.
And Shelly Duvall.

And Shelly Duvall. Thank you.

Support for the show comes from Odo. Running a business is hard enough, and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other.

One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting.

Before you know it, you find yourself drowning in software and processes instead of focusing on what matters, growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in.

It's the only business software you'll ever need. ODU is an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything.
That means CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more.

No more app overload, no more juggling logins, just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part is that Odo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.

It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling it up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process.

It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odo for free at odo.com.
That's odoo.com.

Support for this show comes from S. Steve Johnson.
We've all been there. Choosing not to wear your new white shoes because there's a 10% chance of rain.

Bending awkwardly over the tiny coffee table to enjoy a sip of your latte.

Not ordering the red sauce. Those feelings of dread are what we call stainsiety.

But now you can break free from your stainsiety with Shout's Triple Acting Spray that has stain-fighting ingredients to remove a huge variety of stains so you can live in the moment and clean up later.

Just breathe and shout with Shout Triple Acting Spray. Learn more at shoutitout.com.