Apple Scraps EVs, Google’s Problematic AI, and the SEC’s OpenAI Investigation

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Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher.

And I'm Scott Galloway.

How are you doing, Scott?

Great.

I'm in one of those weeks.

It's just me and my youngest.

So we did our favorite thing last night.

We went to Selfridges for dim sum and then came home and watched the Chelsea game.

And they beat Leeds 3-2 in the 90th minute.

So kind of a perfect evening.

Dim sum at a department store and then football.

Are you going to ask about my week?

How's that going?

Let me guess.

Book tour.

Let me guess.

Nelson Mandela and David Hasselhoff did a book signing for you last night.

By the way, if you could get Nelson Mandela to host a book party, that'd be very impressive.

Yeah, he's not living, Scott.

I'm sorry.

How are you, Kara?

How are you?

Good.

Try that again.

Try that again.

Try that again.

Yes, try that again.

It's like when you call customer service and it's all dogs and they just suggest that you throw up and eat it.

That has nothing to do with anything.

I just like that.

That's funny.

Nothing.

Let's keep trying to get you there to ask a nice question about a nice week because I'm not going to talk to you like this during your book thing.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

Kara, how are you?

Good, good, good.

Tell me more.

No, no.

Don't make it a big deal.

When your book comes out, I'm going to be supportive and friendly and ask you how it's going and everything.

The daddy's books sell on their own.

Do they?

Shall I go look at the number that you're at on Amazon?

I'm in the top 100.

I'm four weeks out.

Trust me, you don't want to play this game.

I told you, I'm the Ted Cruz of media.

People can't stand me, but they keep voting for me.

I'm voting for you.

Okay.

All right.

We'll see how that goes.

I've decided I'm going to write a self-help book next.

That's my next thing.

Not self-help.

It's financial literacy.

It's like how to get rich.

I think you're sometimes in the well, what category do they put you in?

That's an interesting question.

What category do they put you in when they decide you?

Category?

Yeah.

On Amazon, there's all kinds of categories.

And you can like.

What's your category?

Technology.

Well, they have pop.

I'm number one in pop culture in social sciences, number one in computers and technology.

Memoirs.

Holy shit.

Are you really going to read this?

Where are you in narcissism?

Nubra Luno.

I'm number one in memoirs right now.

I'm ahead of He Leadeth Me, an extraordinary testament to the power of God or something.

It's a really interesting game.

When do the best sellers list come out?

Tuesdays.

I think

Tuesdays.

Yeah.

I think it is.

We've got a lot to talk about today including apple putting the brakes on its car project that's a big deal and google is in hot water thanks to its a model although i i think it's a big it's an overreact to it they'll fix it but this is what's interesting because this is about ai because same thing with the ai model um my actual book on amazon you'll find a range of choices of ai generated biographies there's been several stories written about it i saw um this is reportedly a theme with ai generated summaries of buzzy books mostly sold as e-books popping up on the retailer uh savannah Guthrie, who we'll have on, is also dealing with it.

They created workbooks to her book, which is a really top bestseller.

And she didn't make the workbooks.

And then Amazon has grouped them together to buy them together.

And

it seems as if it's her book, you know, her workbook to go with her book.

It's really interesting.

So what I wrote Amazon.

I'm like, what the hell is going on here?

Like, why are it like I'm Gucci and you're selling knockoffs and putting them right next to my thing?

It's an interesting phenomenon that's happening across the news.

Whenever there's a news story now, Google News is flooded with AI versions of the news, which are inaccurate most of the time if you read them, if you know anything about it.

It's a really interesting phenomenon that I wasn't expecting.

It's weird that they're not able to fix that, that it would show up.

I don't get that.

Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know.

I think it's going to happen all over the news environment and the books and things like that because these AI, neither news stories or books can get generated instantly.

And also with pictures of you, like drawings.

Do you like the drawings of me?

I look very femi in all the drawings.

Yeah, it's it's sort of like how a I think like a teen boy would imagine you or something.

It's they're all a little bit more feminized.

I don't know what the term is.

Yeah, they're very feminine.

They're porny.

I find them porny.

You know, yeah, I wasn't going to say that porny because I don't.

It's okay.

They are.

They're porny.

They're weird.

And they have, I have big, hangy earrings in them.

It's just a really,

you know, I can't imagine.

This is a perfect example of these platforms.

What can we do?

Like, they could do something about this.

They have, this is their store and here, they've allowed, you know, knockoffs that, that take away money in, in, uh, or, or else ruin the experience.

I mean, I was, I was, I was on the Today Show with Savannah.

And like, if you've got a shitty thing that comes with her book, you think it's her, right?

And so that creates all kinds of brand mistakes.

I wonder if there'll be lawsuits or with the publishers and stuff like that.

I don't know if news organizations can do anything about the fakes, the stories, which are proliferating.

I will give you this.

You are everywhere.

Everywhere I turn, I keep saying reviews or comments or reviews of reviews.

You realize you're getting reviews of reviews of you.

Yeah, well, I'll tell you why.

And I'll just bring it up very quickly is that

I bet this is going to just

skip right by.

You know what?

When it's you, you talk about you.

I'm not going to skip by because I think this is sucky.

My ex-wife worked for Google, but not for six years after I met her or something like that.

going to back to this.

You talked about that.

No, you know, I'm telling you.

That's what they're discussing.

I think it's rude.

I get that.

No, I didn't earn my job.

She did.

And

people think I'm successful because I'm a white male with outdoor plumbing, which is correct.

Which is correct.

Anyway, yes, it is everywhere.

And there's even more coming, just so you know.

Tonight, I have weeks and weeks of a book tour.

I did have good marketing on this thing.

Oh, God.

I'm going to regret this.

Tell me about what you're done

next.

What's next?

Tonight, Lorraine Powell Jobs and I are going to talk about the book at Six and I in Washington.

That's a flex.

I got to give you that.

That's a flex.

Yep.

Yep.

It's going to be good.

And then next week, it'll be Mark Cuban, I think, and a bunch of people in Los Angeles.

And Sam Altman, you might have heard of it.

Oh, God, that's a big one.

Reed Hoffman.

Gavin Newsome.

Wow.

Gavin Newsom is doing a book time right now?

Yeah.

Wow, that's amazing.

And then I had one in Los Angeles with Bob Ider, but he can't do it for very good reason.

And so Ted Sarandos stepped in for him.

Oh, just you and Ted?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's, he's the, he's the backup singer.

He's the backup singer for that.

The guy who played The Brother and Married with Children, he's doing my book thing.

Yeah.

I'm going to do one of your book things and we're going to have it out.

That's right.

We are going to have it out.

Danny, I'm doing one with Danny Bonaducci.

Nice.

I love Danny Bonaducci.

The Kulkin kid that's not famous.

Is there one?

I'm trying to think of like obtuse characters here.

Anyway, so I'm going to direct it.

It'll be nice.

It'll be nice.

But the best part was at the book party that you gave for me.

Which was great.

Which was great.

Which was great.

Thank you so much for all your work.

By the way, I got a bunch of messages from people at the party.

Yeah, I know.

I know.

I know.

Yeah, yeah.

You know how I got the funniest message from?

I got real-time messages from Jessica Torlov, who, by the way, is my new hero.

She's amazing.

I love her.

She's on Fox News, the Five.

I could almost watch Fox News just to let her make whenever she's on and they have three other anchors on and she breaks into her thing.

Yeah.

She is so right, so on point.

She shuts them down.

She and very poised.

The other three, I'm not exaggerating.

The other three look like they've been caught masturbating.

They have the stupidest looks on their face.

They're like, I don't know how to handle this.

I know.

Yeah, Janine, Piero.

All this truth.

All this truth that's making me look so stupid.

Yeah, yeah.

She's really.

She's my hero.

She's literally, she is literally my spirit animal.

Do you know what she did?

Let me tell you, my she's my hero.

My mom watches the five on Fox News.

My mom was there.

And I said, Mom, this is Jess Tarla from the Five.

And my mom looks at her and she goes, I don't like you.

Like, I don't like you as the character on the show.

She's the liberal character.

Jess, who is pregnant, gets down on the ground, right, face to face with my mother and chit-chats with her.

And when she gets up, my mom goes, I love this woman.

And Jess turned to me and she goes, I'm really good with Republican Fox viewers.

She, and then she invited her to the five to go to the five as in the audience.

She's great.

She's the best.

I wanted not to like her, though.

I was on Bill Maher with her.

She was the other panelist.

Oh, right.

That's right.

And every time I've been on Bill Maher, I go on the videos of it, and everyone's like, Scott's a gangster.

He's amazing.

This time it was all.

Jessica's amazing.

She is.

Jessica's amazing.

And I'm like, I hate that woman.

No, she's a great lady.

She's a great lady.

I am joking.

I know you are.

I know.

She's the kind of lady you would like.

I do like her.

I'm the one who brought her up.

Okay, good.

What is wrong with you today?

You're literally co-opting my friends and compliments.

You know what?

You're jealous of my success this week.

That's what I think is happening.

I did my testosterone injection last night.

I'm especially aggressive this morning.

People are going to be made uncomfortable by your distaste for my success this week.

Distaste for your success.

Last thing, I invited Don and also Brian Stelter and Chris Licked also.

And so they, I think that's the first time they saw each other since he fired both of them.

Brian Stelter?

Yeah, Brian Stelter.

He still loves me.

I was in, I was, I told you this, I was trolling around the hallways of Time Warner during my show, CNN Plus, and I waved at him.

And I'm like, Brian, he was getting in in the elevator he literally tried to ignore he heard me and dashed into the elevator and I thought for the next half hour I'm thinking why does Brian Stelter hate me why does he hate me I'm like have I ever said anything about Brian Stelter shall I ask him shall I text him right now no no no I'd rather live in anonymity

probably has bad eyes I do that all no no no no no no no it was one of those moments direct eye thing it was one of those moments where he literally like looked at me looked away and then was like a dog who'd been caught getting into the trash and thought if I don't make eye contact, it didn't happen.

And then he just ran into the elevator.

Literally, for the next half hour, I'm going through my life.

I'm going through my history.

Like, why does Brian Stelter not like me?

It was like my junior year in high school.

Well, you could have asked him if you came to the party.

Anyway, we're going to move on from that.

Interestingly, speaking of somebody who came up to the party and is leaving, not leaving the party precisely, Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell will step down following the 2024 election.

Trump outlasted him.

He's 82, has been the top Senate Republican since 2006.

Can you imagine?

He did cite age as a factor saying it's time for the next generation of leadership.

There's probably a lot of pressure underneath him among the leadership of the Republicans.

He seems to be planning to serve out the remainder of his Senate term representing Kentucky until January 2027.

It's a reminder.

Why should he leave, right?

McConnell has had a series of health scares in the last year, including freezing up during news conferences.

You know, he's wrangled.

He hasn't been able to get through the Ukraine aid.

He's wrangled over the border stuff that he wanted passed.

And he's not as, you know, he's lost his step, I guess.

Republicans will meet to pick a new leader after the presidential election.

So it's going to be a while.

There's a lot of Johns in the,

and I don't mean people who go to prostitutes.

Oh, that's what they're called?

Johns.

Anyway, there's three Johns in the contention.

And I think one of the more conservative members will probably, Cawley, is going to probably make a bid for it, would be my guess.

Maybe Cruz.

Who knows?

So the Johns are replacing.

Any thoughts on Mitch McConnell?

Well, I mean, quite frankly,

it doesn't.

It hurts Biden because he's the same age.

I've become fond of Mitch McConnell, Senator McConnell, only because he's been very steadfast and courageous or what you need in the Republican Party now to say anything that's not the party line.

And he's been very pro-Ukraine.

And despite his party pushing back on him, he's anti-Trump.

And he's one of the few people

I don't like his base.

his principles, if you will, his political base, his beliefs.

Well, the thing you did with Merrick Garland, remember that?

But he does have a moral compass.

He believes these things.

And I have a lot more respect for him than the majority of Republican senators who will just flip-flop on any issue, trying to kiss the ass of Donald Trump, hoping they'll get Secretary of Interior or something.

But he never said anything when he, like, he hasn't talked to Donald Trump since before the insurrection, actually.

That is the closest to

rejecting.

He's who has been more...

First off, no one's coming out against him as a sitting senator, as far as I know.

Romney.

Romney.

Okay.

Who is retiring?

I mean, here's the thing.

There's something about being a Republican.

I can't stand these guys.

Where all of a sudden their testicles start to grow the moment they leave.

I mean, it's literally all of them decide that this is the wrong guy and it's terrible after they've left office.

All of them.

All of them.

And none of them actually.

There was one very brave Republican senator who gave a very eloquent speech on the floor saying, why on earth are we not passing this immigration bill?

You're telling me it's because there is one senator who's against them.

There is another one, but go ahead.

Go ahead.

Okay, there we go.

One.

at least senator mcconnell i i can't i you know he you got to give him his props he played the democrats like a fiddle yeah that's why i'm not going to give him his props he was much more strategic he was strategic he was very smart he was in it for the long game and i do think that he had a moral compass it's not the morality i admire nor endorse but at least he had a compass all right but i think he brought real bare-knuckled stuff when we needed compromise the stuff he did around Merrick Garland.

He was effective.

He overturned Roe v.

Wade.

That's correct.

Right.

So he's effective.

He's good at at bringing people's lives down.

I think he entered an era of less than comedy between

both sides.

I think he was one of the main people who did that.

He didn't,

not bending.

Yeah, but he leaves.

It's one of the more reasonable ones.

That's how fucked up things have gone.

Of course.

That's how fucked up.

Everyone's like, well, he was against.

I'm like, I don't give him any props.

Because he didn't go.

If he had that backbone, he would have done it all the way.

And I get that he can't do it because of, you know, his the way his party's gone.

But now it's, it's the party of even the Senate, which had been a holdout to Trump.

It's the party of Trump.

It's not the Republican Party.

It's the Trump Party.

So anyway, we'll see who replaces this.

Do you think he should serve out to 2027?

I don't care what he does.

I don't really care.

Whatever.

The Kentucky people can decide that.

But they don't.

He's the senator, so he can do whatever he wants.

He'll probably, you know, freeze up or whatever.

One of the people who will replace him, it'll be a white guy, an old white guy.

The SEC is investigating whether OpenAI's investors were misled.

The internal communications of OpenAI CEO Sam Altman were being looked at along with everyone there.

The Commission sent a subpoena to the company in December, seeking internal records, including these communications.

The request to follow the OpenAI board ousting of Sam Altman in November.

Some of the directors at the time said Altman had not been consistently candid in his communications.

This is what the SEC has to do.

If

one or two board members said this, they have to investigate it.

It's part of their job.

It doesn't mean

there's any malfeasance.

It also doesn't mean that nothing wrong happened, right?

They've got to investigate this.

So I don't know.

They do this all the time.

Am I wrong about this?

I don't think they're looking.

It's not a fishing expedition either.

It's their job.

I think you described it perfectly.

I would imagine one of the board members who feels...

uh upset about it or it's been so public that it warrants some well they were public they said it but go ahead But I mean, here's the bottom line.

I think it's a nothing burger.

It's not a public company.

The people who lost or potentially could have been economically harmed here are sophisticated, accredited investors.

I think it's just a formality.

I don't think we're going to be talking about it in 30 days.

Yeah, we'll see.

The investigation itself, there is an independent investigation, which Altman agreed to.

So he's obviously confident if he agreed to it, right?

I forget what thing.

It's one of the big law firms, independent,

well, independent as much as law firms can be.

I can tell you the results.

Just look at who's paying the law firm.

Yeah, well, yeah, that's true.

Yeah,

sometimes these things yield things.

The CBS one certainly did.

They happen.

It happens.

That's going to be where the real information is.

It seems to me this is just a check mark for the SEC.

And that's what they do.

And whenever it's interesting,

the journal got this scoop, but it's like, you're kidding, you know, person did their job.

This is the job of the SEC.

And if a board member, if the board of

OpenA at the time said this publicly in a statement, they have to investigate it, even if it means nothing.

Even if it's a private company, yeah, they caught it, yeah, because there's investors involved.

Remember, they did that.

I mean, Theranos, you went down for that, was a private company, right?

They monitor that.

Anyway, we'll see.

We'll see what happens.

Well, I'm more interested in the bigger investigation.

And I'm actually more interested in the $7 trillion

he's raising, which I will ask him about next week.

Although, he's been interviewing me, but I'm still going to ask him about that.

Here we go.

Okay.

Okay, let's get to our first big story.

Apple is scrapping its multi-billion dollar plan to release an electric vehicle, a not-so-secret project that was in the works for almost a decade.

The company told employees in an internal meeting this week that the plan notice project Titan has been canceled, surprising the 2,000-person team who had been working on it, according to reports.

Many of those employees will now be reassigned to Apple's generative AI projects,

which will be interesting to see because they have a lot less data than other people because they don't collect it.

You were excited about the idea of an Apple car, Scott.

I'm surprised they canceled it.

Maybe they're working on software.

Apple's car was initially envisioned as an EV to compete against Tesla and later a self-driving car rival, Waymo, which comes from Google, the Google folks.

Elon Musk reacted to Apple's news on X, posting a saluting emoji and a cigarette.

I don't, whatever.

Fuck you.

What do you think, first of all?

Do you consider it a failure?

Are they smart to get out of the EV game, even though they never said they were doing it?

Look, a strategy and a vision is meant to be unifying, but not a suicide pact.

And you were right.

Two years ago, I predicted they were going to build the most valuable waiting list in history, that this made a ton of sense.

They would need to go after big game, and the automobile industry was big.

I felt that Tesla had unearned market cap at 700 billion or whatever it was then, and that Apple was just salivating to go after some of that.

But here's the thing.

When the data changes, As a good manager, you have the right and the obligation to change your mind.

And a step back from the wrong direction is a step in the right direction.

And you know what, Kara?

This was absolutely the right decision.

Because in the last 12 months, the atmospherics have changed dramatically.

And let's just talk about some of those.

The EV market is plateauing, if not slowing.

All the projections are way overestimated.

Consumers' pivot to EVs.

Toyota is looking like a genius right now because they did not go all in on EVs.

They They went hybrid, which you're talking about.

They went hybrids.

Tesla is running up against margin compression.

And then

you have the company, which is

probably the most important company that no one talks about.

BYD is now outselling Tesla.

That's right.

Do you know Warren Buffett has a big stake in that?

Is that right?

I didn't know that.

But let's look at the market versus where it was, say, just even two years ago, much less when this project was probably approved.

You have a low-margin, capital-intensive product that is subsidized.

Basically, every company in the world has either gotten federal loans, Tesla, or has been bailed out, GM and Chrysler.

It's a massively subsidized industry, which makes it incredibly economically inefficient.

They have this enormous competitor with a $600 billion market capitalization that is doing really well called Tesla.

They have another gigantic, low-cost competitor that's actually outselling Tesla right now.

And the consumer seems to be pulling back from EVs and EV, the prices of used EVs are plummeting.

And they look at this, and in addition, what has popped up?

Generative AI.

And so the key to strategy is strategy is decisions that attempt to cut a swath between market dynamics and your internal competences in order to add shareholder value.

And the key to strategy is not what you say yes to, but what you say no to.

And even Apple has finite resources, both human and capital.

And my guess is they've said, based on this market, which quite frankly looks increasingly difficult, we would rather take our finite resources.

Okay, I think EVs, yes, they have, I think they over, everyone overinvested, right?

And so I still think it's the direction it's going, period.

I think this is the way it's going.

I just think consumers aren't quite ready yet.

It's sort of the valley of death area that happens in.

But a lot of who got into this?

Car makers, right?

Car makers got into this and

are starting to make beautiful cars.

Now, as they do that, I do think customers and people have, you know, don't have worries about charging and everything else.

I do think it's going to move.

You're going to see in 10 years.

You know, I forget how much of a percentage EVs are.

It'll move up.

It just won't move up this quickly.

That's one.

Because I do think this is the way things are going, these autonomous vehicles, excuse me, electric vehicles, and then eventually autonomous autonomous vehicles.

I think that is the direction.

I think science fiction has been correct about this, that we will have autonomous electric cars

in the future when we're dead, when both of us are dead.

So, I think that's it's just there's so many competitors now.

And now, you do have like BYD,

and which is just roasting everybody else.

And

they're coming here, they're looking at Mexican sites to build a factory so that they can move into this area.

So, I do think people will have a lot more choice like they do with the regular cars.

That's one.

And so, but it's a lot less than the investment.

So, GM, everybody's pulled back, but they haven't totally pulled back because they realize this is the future.

The second thing is

Apple, I was always dubious, as you know, about them building the car.

I'm like, why don't they just work on the software for the car?

Like making the car, these electric cars work better.

Or, you know, Tim Cook never acknowledged this car project and referred to it as work on autonomous systems.

I think they should not abandon, I think they they should abandon building the car.

That was sort of weird to me, but

keep at this idea of how to operate transportation vehicles, right?

It's a great area.

And as to AI, I think it's very important that they incorporate AI into all their products so that you

like assistance, all that kind of stuff.

Like I don't, they're going to have a harder time in the AI market because they don't collect as much data.

But it's a better bet for them to focus on making these products seamless in a new AI environment.

Like my Apple AI talks to your Apple AI kind of things.

And I think that's where they're going to get the big push of keeping you in the Apple ecosystem.

I'm not sure.

You know what I think was likely the final nail in the coffin when they said, okay, it's time to officially announce this is over?

Is Rivian.

Why is that?

Well, okay, Rivian's been around a decade and a half.

It's executed really well.

I have an order on it, Rivian.

Real briefly, I'm going to get that ocean foam green Rivian.

I've already outfitted it.

And I bought a home in Aspen, and I'm going to drive into town, have lunch at Casatua, dinner at Cash Cash.

I'm going to be a cliche of a douchebag, and everyone is going to love me.

And I'm going to put my dogs in the back of the Rivian.

Anyways, I love Rivians.

I think they're beautiful.

They're really popular.

They have executed really well.

They cost about $70,000.

And every time they sell one, they lose $42,000.

This is an incredibly difficult business.

And they probably said, what's the analog here?

And they're like, well, the analog's Tesla.

And I was like, come on.

Tesla cotton got in front of a tsunami when the entire industry didn't want to acknowledge what was happening they had a spokesperson that brought massive attention to it government subsidies what has happened there is a unicorn on top of a unicorn that gives birth to unicorns right they said the the analog to what we're trying to do here is rivian rivian has executed well it's a good-looking car and they're losing forty thousand dollars every time they sell one yeah well interesting one of the signs of this was and i remember paying a lot of attention this guy named djing i think it's novotny Novotny.

He was sort of one of the early car people at Apple.

He left to go to Rivian.

DJ Novotney?

Yes.

I think I saw him at the

Miami Music Festival.

I like Rufus de Sol and Calvin Harris more, but he's right up there.

I'm sorry, go ahead.

Anyway, he went to Rivian, and that was a big deal.

Now, as to Rivian, it's interesting.

One of the people who follows Apple, Gene Munster, said Apple should buy Rivian.

Like, that's how to do it.

Like, don't get out, but actually buy it, which I thought was interesting.

That's actually a really interesting.

That's That's a really interesting idea.

Yeah.

Do you like that?

That's Gene Munster who said that.

But they're just buying losses at this point.

I'm sorry.

Go ahead, Kern.

Gets them in there.

I don't know.

That was the alternative.

I guess it's a huge project, and they really are focused in on,

they should be focused in properly on integrating AI into their systems and also

on their spatial computing.

They got to be focused on that more than this.

But buying Ribyon could be something.

So Gene Munster is my just tarlov of a decade ago.

I used to go on CNBC all the time.

And whenever I was talking about Apple or whenever they wanted to talk about Apple, they'd bring me and Gene Munster on.

And I would just sit there and think, God, he's so much better than me.

Yeah.

So he said Apple's a tech company and tech companies by definition need to grow.

And that's the $400 billion question that they have here.

They've got all this money.

So he feels like to grow the business, you got to get into it.

They shouldn't.

Because he thinks Apple Vision Bro has potential, but the car, they would grow.

He thinks it eventually would would grow.

It's an interesting, you know, he thinks they need to be in a new market and that why abandon it and

stay in this market by buying someone.

That's not an Apple thing to do.

They're not acquirers.

It's an interesting idea that Rivian would have to get their financial house in order.

It's tough to buy a company that's losing that kind of money right now.

But they'd get a great, great stat.

That guy who's the CEO of Rivian is impressive.

Yeah, but it has about an $11 billion markup, which they could do easily, but it's still hemorrhaging money.

so they'd it's a really interesting idea if they could get sort of to or close to break even then i think it'd be a great idea for apple but as you said apple doesn't like to make acquisitions all right let's go on a quick break we come back we'll talk about google's ai mess and take a listener question about what ai will do for hr oh a lot of letters

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Scott, we're back with our second big story.

Google CEO Sundar Pichai is calling the recent problematic responses from the company's AI tools completely unacceptable in an internal memo to employees.

Google took its Gemini image creation tool offline last week after it generated racially inaccurate pictures of historical figures and in some cases refused to depict white people.

I'm sorry, it made me laugh.

There are other issues about with Gemini's text-based responses.

In one instance, the chatbot refused to say whether Elon Musk tweeting memes was worse than Hitler.

Pichai says teams are working around the clock to address issues and are already seeing a substantial improvement.

Google parent company Alphabet lost some $90 billion in market value earlier this week.

Many right-wing critics and commentators have suggested the Gemini situation is evidence of anti-white bias among big tech, which is my favorite thing I've ever heard.

I don't know, go visit these places.

Thoughts?

Thoughts?

The whole DEI,

you know, whatever Ben Shapiro or whatever conservative commentator gets their hair on fire on this, that's not important.

It's

what it is, is another kind of

what I'll call self-inflicted injury, or, or what you call, what's the term?

Unnecessary foul.

I don't know what the term is

against Google.

They're just these things tend to have a momentum, and it feels like Google is turning into the gang that can't shoot straight right now.

You would think, just in basic QA, someone would have noticed this.

That when you type in the term Nazi and it returns black people, something's not right with the AI.

Yeah, it just isn't working.

Yeah, so it's just weird that they didn't catch it.

The whole woke versus non-woke thing, that's just a fucking sideshow.

Who cares?

Yeah, it is.

But although, although, even before

Ben Thompson wrote in Stratitude, I thought this was a miss by him, that Gemini incident speaks to the larger issue with Google's company culture.

He suggests cutting, quote, employees attracted to Google's power and potential to help them execute their political program, which could include Sundar.

Ben, obviously, you've never spent time with Sundar.

He is literally the most down the line.

I would press him at times to be, you know, during the Muslim ban, I told him he should speak out when we were having lunch, and he wouldn't do it.

Like, he was very, he's very, like, not wanting to do that.

That's it's nonsense, Ben.

I'm sorry.

This was a piece of nonsense you wrote.

I know the people who go to work at these companies, I know the senior people, not as well as you, but I know them.

They don't go to lean left or to lean red or lean blue.

They go to lean green.

They go to make money.

Correct.

They don't.

They would.

The notion that they're there to advance some political agenda.

If political agenda is buying a Gulfstream 650 extended range and being able to be a billionaire such that the rest of their lives, they'll be under the impression that they're loved because that's what it means to be loved in America.

Then sure, that's their political agenda.

But they avoid politics.

They'd rather not.

Really, truly.

He is in particular.

He in particular.

We would laugh about it.

I'd be like, are you going to say anything?

He's like, I am not.

Like, he's just not like that.

Yeah, but that's his superpower.

He stays out of the crosshairs because he's very likable.

He comes across as very gentle, but very smart at the same time.

But there's just no getting around it.

Google overnight, because of open AI, looks flat-footed and poorly managed.

It's true.

They were the first people who bought these companies with DeepMind.

That's what's incredible, right?

I mean, they were.

I wrote that story.

They were first.

They were first.

I think they've, they've, I think you could say this about Sundar.

He's too cautious.

I think people, and he's indecisive, is what sometimes you hear from people, in that he didn't, didn't, he probably wasn't moving forward because of regulatory issues quite as aggressively, right?

Not, there's no way, they're not worried about woke or not wake.

They just just, they had that incident a couple of years ago with that guy, but that guy was this one guy who was saying shitty things to other employees.

And that was about shitty things to other employees to me, in my mind.

And of course, the right made it into some big thing.

I have spent so much time there.

Google.

is just not,

there's no finger snapping happen at Google all the time.

It's just not.

They got rid of Tim Nit Gebru.

They got rid of people who are trying to be more social justice-y, right?

Or what they would consider social justice-y.

I like what Tim Nit is doing.

Just there's, it's, it's laughable.

Now, let's say this, this, these products aren't working, but you know what?

Uh, Grok made fun of Elon Musk.

These, they just don't work these things properly.

There was one that Open AI had the other day in their movie, In Sorrow, where they had a guy lighting a cigarette and it was all ass backwards.

And it just, it just doesn't work.

That's some of it's not ready for prime time.

But I do think that Google's got to get more aggressive in this space very much.

They have all the tools.

They've got all the data, all the technology.

They could come right in.

Microsoft, of course, is the one that was smart about this, of all of them.

But Google can come right in here and do very well.

They can turn it around in seconds.

Well, our prediction last week is that this is the year the Empire strikes back, the Empire Bing Alphabet.

They just have so much access to proprietary data, specifically your email, your viewing preferences on YouTube, your calendar.

I mean, think about it.

And it's theirs, and it's theirs.

That's the thing.

Think about you give them permission to access your calendar or your email, which I would do in exchange for utility.

And the dirty secret that we all don't want to admit is we all give up tons of privacy in exchange for utility.

And they could say, oh, Scott, you're going to South by Southwest.

We see you stay at the Austin proper.

Should our AI reach out to the Gemini-enabled AI at this hotel, Jane, and find the right rate in the right room.

We know what kind of room you want to stay in.

We know where you like to hang out, and we'll just send you alerts and set it all up.

Yes, no, do you want to be here?

I think it's going to be a great year for Alphabet.

They need to get it together.

That's all.

And, you know, let me just finish up on this like idea that this was a mistake they made.

It was stupid.

But let me just tell you, for years, Google search had a problem was every time you search CEO, it was all white people, right?

This went on and on and on.

It is all white people.

It is.

But yes, I get that.

That's accurate.

Yes, I get that.

I get that.

But I'm just saying, there were controversy after controversy about that.

And now for one brief shining moment, the right-wing fuckboys can say everyone's against them.

You know, honestly, stop it.

They just overcorrected.

Exactly.

That's exactly right.

I'm going to call them fuckboys from now on because it'll bother them.

Is that anti-woke?

Is that what I call them fuckboys?

Yeah.

It's a gay term.

Fuckboys?

I have those.

They cost $400.

I'm called a John.

Anyways,

but I'm speaking at TED,

which is my flex.

And I'm going to.

Oh, you are.

I saw that.

Anyways, so I'm starting to put together my presentation, and I go to these places.

I'm looking for images.

I'm going to these places for clip art.

You know, I type in family or whatever.

It's all ethnically ambiguous hot people.

It's like the key party I want to be invited to.

It's all these ridiculous.

I don't care if you're bigoted or you think the future should be patriarchal white people.

Mixed marriages or mixed race marriages are producing the most beautiful generation of people in history.

And clip art, it's like, I have no idea what their background is.

I just know they're hot.

Oh my God.

Clip art.

It's my new porn, Kara.

It's my new porn.

Anyway, just so you know, a fuckboy, besides being a man who has many sexual, casual sexual partners, is a weak and contemptible man.

So I think it's the perfect word.

Anyway,

lastly, where did that come from?

I just was looking it up.

I just looked it up.

I said the word fuckboy.

I wanted to see what it actually meant, and I just told you.

Meanwhile, I like to use the dictionary.

It's known as a derogatory term, by the way.

Meanwhile, several digital news outlets, including The Intercept and Ross Story, are following in the footsteps of the New York Times, filing copyright infringement lawsuits against OpenAI.

The outlets say thousands of their stories were used by OpenAI to train chatbots, to answer questions posed by their users.

We're going to see more of these lawsuits until deals are made.

There's also been some deals made with, I think.

Reddit made a deal with Google, I believe.

WordPress made a deal maybe with OpenAI too.

Everyone's doing deals or suing each other on this area, correct?

This is what's going to happen.

When I saw the story, it reminded me last night I spoke to, I got a call from Andrew Morse, the guy who used to run CNN Plus and now he runs the Atlanta Constitution or Atlanta Constitution Journal.

He does.

And he's a really thoughtful young man.

And

he called and said, I'm writing an op-ed about how we need to play offense and the traditional media business.

And I said, I got to be honest.

I think traditional newspapers are just fucked.

And he said, well, why is that?

And I said, well, imagine that you have these nascent platforms, quote unquote, or these technology platforms, Alphabet, Social Meta, where consumers now get two-thirds of their news.

And imagine if you're not a quote-unquote technology platform, i.e., the New York Times company or the Washington Post or Gannett, you have to pay a 40% tax.

There's no way you can compete.

He's like, well, what do you mean?

We don't have to pay a 40% tax.

I'm like, absolutely, you do.

It's called not having Section 230 protection.

Because you are liable, because, and I'll use News Core, because News Core does not have Section 230 protection, they can run a fraction of the stories that disparage and slander Dominion voting machines, and they get fined $800 million.

Whereas these technology platforms who are protected by Section 230 can just let content run amok without the tax and extreme cost of moderation, editing, fact-checking, and ensuring.

Yep, they're not not paying the costs.

I've said this a dozen times this week.

They don't pay the costs to everybody else.

So the frame through which we should be looking at this is do we want traditional media and news coverage companies acknowledging that they do play an important role in society, should they pay a 40%

tax that big tech does not have to pay?

Because if they continue to, I don't care who you are.

I don't care if you're backed by a billionaire.

That's not changing, though.

libel laws are going in the opposite direction.

They're trying to, the Republicans are trying to make them even more heinous.

Well,

I do think at some point, I'm still hopeful that there'll be carb routes around Section 230.

But the bottom line is the place where most people are now getting their news

complain that they're not getting fact-check news.

And it's like, well, okay, folks, but the guys you like or the guys you're rooting for pay a 40% tax.

They do.

Because

they're not exonerated from liability, which is probably a good thing.

Well, in

this case, it's copyright, which is very good laws.

The laws and copyright are quite stringent.

So this is what they have to do, but it's going to cost them.

It's going to cost them.

These people have less costs than you do.

But you're right.

They're fucked.

This is something, interestingly, it's one of my themes this week.

I was like, they're like, what can we do?

I'm like, nothing until they have liability.

When they have liability, plenty.

There's plenty.

Parents can sue Facebook, you know, all these kinds of things.

I was like, until then, until they pay the costs of what they pay the cost of the damage they do, nothing, because they can operate with impunity in a weird way.

Well, that's the deterrent side.

And I agree with you.

I think you're 100% right.

I would go further than that.

Until there's a perp walk, nothing changes.

Ah, you love it.

I mentioned you on several shows.

I said Scott Galloway thinks there should be a perp walk.

I mentioned you.

I want to be clear.

I'm not a lawyer and I'm not a judge.

But what I will say is, I'm not going to

try and convict anybody, but until someone shows up in an orange uniform, we can't find fines that are big enough.

Well, let's just be, let's just be able to sue them to start.

They don't, There's no purpops from anybody anymore who's rich and can get out of it.

Anyway, not very many.

Not very many.

There just aren't.

Sorry.

I don't know.

Sam Bankman Freed, Elizabeth Walms, they're both

Susan.

You got two.

I agree.

That's fair point.

Fair point.

Anyway, let's pivot to a listener question now.

This question comes from via email.

I'll read it.

Hi, Kara and Scott.

My name is Jimena, and I'm a huge fan of you both and the pod.

It is basically, quote, required reading for weekly Friday night dinner with my friends.

Have fun.

I work at a startup and have found myself in the HR space and what is now called people operations.

My question for you: in this age of AI, how do you think the functions and roles that deal with humans will be impacted?

What a good question.

The use cases for AI and data analytics, creative work, and more are become increasingly clear.

But to what extent do you think AI can support and replace managers and HR teams?

Thanks for all you do, Jimena.

Let me just say everything.

HR is a perfect area for this, but Scott, you start.

You start because you employ people more than I do.

It's not going to, if you're a growth company, it's going to be, it'll be fantastic because if you're growing fast,

the need for additional human capital will supplant and fill in the HR problem of having to lay off people.

In other words, if you're growing 30% a year, well, logically, you need 30% more people, right?

Or 20% more.

But instead, you're only going to need 10% or 15% more each year because AI is not going to take anyone's job.

It's not going to be Mary the copywriter is replaced by AI.

It's going to be you're only going to need two Marys, not three or four, because Mary, if trained and armed well, will just get more productive.

So it's a good thing.

It's a great thing for the economy.

Productivity is not everything, but it's almost everything.

Where it becomes an HR fucking nightmare is for the 80 or 90% of companies in our economy that are only slightly growing or not growing because then they use AI, quite frankly, to lay off people.

And in their earnings call,

if they dare say, as Klarna said,

and it wasn't an earnings call, Klarna is thinking about going public.

If they say AI is doing the work of 600 people, you have an HR nightmare on your hands the next day.

Because the HR manager has a line around our office going, oh, I'm thinking about taking another offer.

Or am I at risk here?

Our CEO is saying that we're using AI to replace people.

So what's happening right now is CEOs and low-growth or modest growth companies are lying, or

they're not being straight with their employee base.

Because the problem is

it is not an aspirational all-hands to say, I've got great news.

Our earnings are up because we've gotten more productive.

And I've got even better news.

I'm going to need less of you moving forward.

What could they use AI for in HR of all the different functions they have?

Oh, I think every, oh my God, everything from churning out offer letters to saying, okay, this is the situation the person is leaving.

Have the AI figure the severance and come up and produce the agreement they need to sign so they don't shitpost us when they leave in exchange for six months severance in their Cobra.

I mean,

onboarding and offboarding are incredibly time-intensive.

And there's a lot of contracts and a lot of lawyers involved.

I wouldn't be surprised at some point if AI gets a certain amount of input and starts making at least recommendations, if not the actual promotion and compensation.

Recommendations for hiring, you mean?

Yeah, because they'll have all the data, right?

They'll have all the data.

And now it's, they don't always know.

And that's one of the things I was always amazed by when I was working.

They don't, first of all, they keep salaries hidden, right?

So people don't understand it.

And even the managers don't quite know who's being paid what and how much, and different things.

It seems like it's all like, it seems, it always has seemed more than, you know, everyone was like, oh, they're actually trying to screw women and people of color more than men.

They get paid more.

They usually did.

But more, it was more chaotic than anything else, was always my impression.

Is that's why that happened was because it wasn't, there was no analysis going on.

I was like, isn't this organized somewhere?

And then I was like, no, there's just a spreadsheet with no thinking about it, right?

That was always my impression of HR, is that it was less, you know, nefarious, although it could be nefarious at various points than people think in a workplace and more totally disorganized because the information was all over the place.

But maybe it's just.

So you said a lot there, a few things.

One, that non-whites and women made less.

That was true.

It's not true any longer.

If you look at the data, And companies are now very sensitive to this, where you do see discrepancies on a job-for-job basis at one crucial point, and that's when a woman decides to leverage her ovaries and have children.

Corporate America, we have closed the gap.

We really have, if you look at the data, where it's still, where there is still a problem, is corporate America has not reconciled how to maintain the trajectory of a person's career, acknowledging that the species needs to continue.

That's where we still have a hold.

But on the whole, we have made huge progress.

There's a lot going on there, but the most difficult thing I think in all of business, and this is from a board level, a CEO level, a manager level, is compensation.

And here's the bullshit.

David Lanhard was just on my Prop G podcast talking about the importance of labor unions.

And I'm like, you know what would be the biggest raise that labor could have is if there was a hack or a law that mandated that you published the compensation of every individual in your company.

Because there's an asymmetry of information.

And an asymmetry of information always benefits the person or the organization that has symmetry because your employer knows that you're making X and someone else is making 1.3x for doing the same job.

And if you knew it, you might be pissed off and you might go in and say, Hey, Bob is making 30% more than me, and it's bullshit.

So you either true me up or I'm out of here.

This gestalt, this whole thing that talking about your salary is like talking about sex is nothing but a transfer of capital from workers to shareholders.

Because if you're not complaining or you're not doing a market check, you don't know that Joey Bagadona

sitting down the aisle is making 40% more than you.

And by the way, he's worth 40% more, and so are you.

They're just paying you less because you don't know.

Well,

what it does is there's a lot of things it could do to try to make things clear for the HR people.

That's one thing.

in the answer to this question.

The other thing is that it will be used,

AI is going to be used by bosses for efficiencies, and that will be an AR, HR nightmare in terms of it will eventually shake itself out.

But

there are going to be a lot less people working at things, whether it's law associates,

anything that

AI can do more efficiently is simply going to happen.

There's no way these bosses are not going to do this.

It makes perfect sense to do so, even if it seems heartless.

It's just that that's the way it's it's going.

If you look at the arc of technology, though, that's a glass, a little bit of glass half empty, or at least a short-term view.

Because with every technology, whether it's a semiconductor, computers, or agricultural technology, one in three Americans just 100 or 120 years ago made their living in agriculture.

Now it's one in 25.

Is that in the short run, there's some destruction of jobs, but it creates so much productivity and so much additional capital to reinvest that it ultimately ends up creating more jobs, right?

That's the hope.

Well, it's happened with every technology.

In this time, I think people are are a little more nervous because that would hit people.

When I was at a dinner party, they were all bemoaning this.

And I'm like, you didn't mind it when you got cheaper strawberries.

You didn't mind it.

You know what I mean?

I think it's just, it's just the, it's the class.

Try build a house with automation.

It's the agonized class that's now getting the ones that are very.

Well, it's whoever's on the wrong end of it and doesn't want to learn new skills, right?

I'm 45 or 50.

I'm an SVP making a lot of money and I don't want to fucking learn AI.

Well, guess what, boss?

The 30-year-old is going to learn AI and he or she is going to take your job.

It's trite, but it's true.

AI is not going to take your job.

Someone who understands AI is going to take your job.

The opportunities for new jobs and the opportunities to start storming the castle with a smaller, more better-trained army, I think a lot of these big companies are going to find upstart competitors with 10, 12, 100 people that are punching so far above their weight class because they built the mother's milk of where they started their DNA with AI skills.

Scott Galloway, Chechno Optimus.

There you go.

So sorry you lost your job.

Anyway, thank you,

Jimena.

We really appreciate it.

That's a great question.

Got us chit-chatting about something that we think is important.

Jimena, that's a wonderful name.

Jimena.

Jimena.

By the way, in Austin, I'm hopping around a lot here.

I'm caffeinated and have ADHD, but in Austin, I'm going to go do that ketamine therapy.

Ekoya or something like that?

Yeah.

Oh, why there?

Why are you doing it there?

A friend of mine owns a clinic there.

He pinged this guy.

They heard the wonderful thing about a podcast is everyone knows where you're going to be.

And so they invite you to cool stuff.

And I've been invited to go do a massive hit of ketamine.

So I'll talk about it.

Doesn't it over a course of just several sessions?

I think this is a singular session.

I think you do a pre-session with a therapist, which for me should take no longer than seven or nine days.

To make sure you're not crazy, right?

To make sure you're not too unstable.

Yes.

Well, you got to be very careful.

You can't suffer from schizophrenia.

But anyways,

you do a pre-session with a therapist, I believe.

Then you go on, you do the session.

You have a therapist asking you questions.

It's with you, right?

And then you do kind of a post-whatever it is.

And I've been offered to do it.

There's nice chairs.

There's nice chairs.

Yeah.

I'll probably check it out.

I'm supposed to.

It's like.

I'll do it with you.

I don't want to do it with you.

So I've been doing Burning Man.

I mean, you'll do it and we'll both talk about it, but

I'm not going to go do ketamine with Karis Fisher.

I don't mean in the same room.

I hear about your childhood promises every day of the week, twice a week.

That's true.

That's totally.

That's fair.

I got an idea.

Let's do it together and I'll be your therapist and just ask you questions.

That'd be good.

That'd be good.

But it's like Burning Man.

I think I'm going to do it and I plan to go and then I chicken out at the last minute.

I'm supposed to know.

You went to Burning Man, haven't you?

No, I've never done it.

I think my window's closed.

What?

No, you got to go.

I've never been.

I'm not going.

I have a determination not to go.

So, and I've, I've kept it.

Unless I can go to one of those camps with Russian hookers and a chef, I'm not going.

My window's closed.

I'm going to Casa too and cash cash at Aspen instead.

I remember the last time I went to Coachella, all I could think is, it's so hot.

I'm too old for this.

And it's already old cella.

That's what they call it.

Do you know that?

Old cella.

Yeah, everyone goes to stagecoach now.

Now it's country music.

Karen doesn't go to any of these things.

It's so funny.

Oh, they're fun.

I don't know.

I'm not interested.

Because you don't do drugs or drinks.

I don't.

That's what it is.

Someone is asking me, you know, even, you know, I like these book parties.

I have one on Friday here in DC too.

I don't like parties.

That's why you don't dance.

I bet you don't dance, right?

You don't like to dance?

I don't.

Yes, because you don't drink or do drugs.

Dancing's awesome as long as you have no self-awareness.

Amanda's always like, who are you?

Is there, I don't like to swim.

You know, they just, my family just marvels at me.

They're like, you really don't like all the good things.

I don't like to swim.

I don't like water.

I don't, I literally am very happy by myself just reading.

Just not swimming and not dancing.

Not dancing, not dimming.

Staying dry and not moving.

Not moving.

I'm very happy.

I like to walk.

I don't know.

I'm really dull in that regard.

Anyway, if you've got a question of your own that you'd like answered, send it our way.

That was a good question.

Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 85551-PIVOT.

All right, Scott, one more quick break.

We'll be back for wins and fails.

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Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails.

Okay, so my

win is this billion dollar,

this billion dollar gift that was given at Einstein University by

a woman named Ruth Goddessman, I believe his name, I believe her name is.

So Ruth, or Professor Goddessman, I should say, she's taught there for decades.

And

she could have had the school renamed after her for literally a quarter of that amount.

And instead, she refused.

And actually, the backstory is she wanted the gift to be anonymous, but was persuaded that if she reveals who she is, that it might inspire others.

Anyways, no tuition.

It's easy to be critical of this.

There's some issues.

One, it lets schools off the hook.

As long as they continue to get these ridiculous donations, they have no reason to cut costs.

And ultimately, everybody...

there's some issues, but on the whole, the core of this is a woman who is giving a billion dollars such that people can pursue careers in medicine and not have debt hanging over them.

And anyways, you just have to admire that sort of generosity and that sort of expression and that sort of legacy.

My fail is a weird one.

I'm being critical of a company I used to be on the board of.

I don't know if you saw this, but Panera Bread, basically Gavin Newsom signed into law that minimum wage goes from 15 to 20 bucks for fast food workers.

And I guess a buddy of his is somehow involved in Panera, although I never met him.

And somehow Panera Bread got an exemption because there's an exemption in the bill for

restaurants that serve bread.

And this is just pure political bullshit.

Pure political bullshit.

And so what I would urge to the board of Panera and to Governor Newsom is this is a moment of opportunity to say we value our employees, especially our frontline workers.

Our company is doing amazing and it is.

I know this firsthand.

And of course we are going to comply with the minimum wage laws across the rest of the industry and pay our frontline workers 20 bucks.

But this is nothing but naked political backroom bullshit.

Yeah, that's a good, that's a good point.

That's a good fail.

I would say my fail, since I'm going to just do it off the top of my head, was the Supreme Court not

agreeing to hear the Trump immunity case, but taking so friggin long and bringing it so close to the election.

This is just,

they should act quickly on an issue like this.

This is an important issue.

I don't think it's wrong for them to bring it up.

I think it's actually the right court has to hear this immunity question.

It's a big question.

But

the feet dragging, I know people think it's fast.

It needs to be faster.

I don't care.

This shouldn't be bumping up against an election, which I think now this case, this January 6th case, is going to.

They're going to have to wait for

April 22nd.

Hey, what do you, I know you have other cases, but this seems to be the most important one.

So, and it's going to get right.

It's going to, oh, what a, it's going to be a nail biter right up to the top.

And so, and then if he, and if it goes past the election and he wins, he can, he can pardon himself, right, off this thing or get rid of it.

It's just this, the Supreme Court is abrogating its responsibility by not hearing it quicker.

Um, they've already taken weeks to decide to take it slower.

You know,

I've read all this stuff, but it's your responsibility not to make a mess.

This creates a real problem.

And I thought, I think it's, I think it's,

I don't know.

I don't know.

I just was.

I think they're just hoping one of the candidates dies and makes their lives easier.

In any case, in any case.

It could happen, folks.

It could happen.

And

my win is just

Tarloff with my mom.

Thank you, Jess.

Thank you.

And by the way, people of Fox News, I'm coming to see the five with my mom.

We're coming there.

I can't wait to see you, Jesse Waters, you giant idiot.

I'm so excited.

He always says dumb things.

So I'm excited to meet you.

Oh, wait, that's the five.

That's not the view.

Who's Janine?

I've never seen it.

No, I was on the view.

Oh, that's my win.

I went to the view.

Oh, my God.

They're so fantastic.

Oh, that's my win.

I'm sorry.

Forget the five.

I love Jess.

Jess, I love you.

That was the most incredible experience.

The most organized show I've been on, by the way.

I was on a lot of

it.

It's a phenomenon, but it was like so well done.

The producers were great.

The green room was the best green room I've ever been, and the food was amazing.

They had the beautiful mug for me.

I may send it to you because I think you'll love it.

It was so great.

And all of them, let me just say, the questions were great.

The crowd was great.

It just was a really lovely experience.

They were all smart and sharp, and they were having a really great discussion.

And each of them has their own little personality, whether it's Joy or Sunny or or Sarah.

And Alyssa Farah, I think, is the one that got me there.

She's the conservative one.

Oh, I love her.

I mean, the future ex-Mrs.

Galloway.

She was amazing.

She's amazing.

She's,

I don't, yeah, we don't agree on lots of stuff, but I really thought, I just thought it was an intelligent conversation the whole time.

And I was really pleased with it.

And Whoopi Goldberg is the coolest person on.

planet.

She's so cool.

And like, she just watches, you know, and then she weighs in with like badoom.

I don't know.

I just, I love that.

I, I just, I want to be on on the view now i want to leave you for the view ladies they need a lesbian um and and that should that should be

no nobody's not a lesbian no they don't have a lesbian that's on the other one they have a lesbian well i don't see sexual orientation well they need a lesbian they need a lesbian that's what they need anyway um great that was great that was my That was my win.

I was so excited.

I shouldn't be so excited, but I was.

I did a lot of great interviews.

And thank you.

One of the things that was really, I liked a lot from this part of the book tour, and it's continuing, was everybody asked really substantive and great questions.

And it wasn't silly.

And that was nice.

And I think I was really heartened by that, really prepared.

And, you know, really good

journalism or whatever it is to discussions can be really wonderful.

So I liked that.

So that's what I would say.

The view.

You know what?

The first thing I would say if I was invited on the view, I would say, ladies, the first thing a man looks at in a woman.

Oh, no.

Is her heart.

The fact that her breasts blocked the view isn't our fault.

Is that wrong?

Is that wrong?

You are not getting on the view.

Anyway, Scott, that's the show.

We'll be back on Tuesday with more Pivot.

Scott, read us out.

Today's show is produced by Larry Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin.

Ernie Urutat engineered this episode.

Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Mil Severio.

Nashat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio.

Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from York magazine, Vox Media.

You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/slash slash pod.

We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

Kara, have a great weekend.

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