Twitter’s Trump Warrant, and An Abortion Rights Win in Ohio with Co-Host Will Hurd

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Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher.

We're closing out a second week of Scott-Free August.

It's been a very enjoyable month so far.

And my co-host today is former CIA officer and more recently, a Texas Congressman.

He is currently a Republican candidate for president.

Please welcome Will Hurd.

Hi, Will.

What's up, everybody?

Hey, Kara.

Thanks for having me on.

How are you doing?

I'm doing wonderful.

I'm glad Scott takes off for August so I get this opportunity.

Yeah, I know.

The person who brought us together is Alyssa Farris said you like Pivot, and you have a lot to say.

Apparently, you're running for president.

We're going to talk about that and more.

How are you doing?

Otherwise, how's it going?

How's the campaign going?

Look, it's exciting.

I have to say, you know, I just hired a new person, and he's a huge super fan of yours.

So much so that when we were last in iowa he rented us a kia a kia sorento and he's like he's like you're going to be able to talk about this on on on i love the kia sorento did you hear what happened to my kia sorento no i do not know the it got crushed by a tree in washington during the storms and your old haunts yes a tree fell on it it was uh we'll see how it survives i'm gonna get another one obviously but well i'm glad i'm glad you weren't in the tree I was

in the car.

No, you know, the bolts survived.

We moved the bolt just the night before and it would have also gotten crushed.

Um, but thank god the bolt survives.

And also, uh, you know, so I have two unsexy cars that I think are very, I'm trying to bring sexy back to bolts and sorentos.

If anybody can do it, you can.

I can do it.

Um, so I want to talk about a lot of things, but how is how is your campaign going?

Have you gotten more votes than Connor Roy yet?

I don't even know.

I don't even know the reference.

I don't even know the reference.

Oh, my God.

Yeah, you know what?

Look,

I've only seen a

few episodes.

Look, here's the thing.

I'm a dark horse candidate.

I recognize that.

But what has been fascinating is every week we're getting better.

I talk about how we're a startup, right?

And the way a startup, look, you've forgotten more about startups than most people know, is have a good product market fit.

We know who our customers are and who our customers aren't.

And it's about growing at the right times.

And so my most immediate issue is making sure I meet the requirements to get on the debate stage.

And we're getting really close to that.

How close are you?

It's like $40,000?

It's $40,000.

I'll give you money.

I gave money to Christy, so I'll give money to you to get you up.

Well, look, look, I appreciate that.

It's $5, so I don't feel that honored.

Hey, $5

counts towards that $40,000.

But look,

it's been fun.

It's been exciting.

The message is slowly resonating.

The goal is not to peak next week.

The goal is to peak between Thanksgiving and Christmas.

And guess what?

I think America deserves a sane conservative party so that we can have a competition of ideas.

And that's why we're doing it.

So, talk about that a tiny bit.

You were just appearing, I forget whatever gathering you were at, and you got booed.

I thought you handled it rather well.

Donald Trump is running to stay out of prison.

And if we elect,

I know, I know, I know, I know,

I know.

Listen, listen, I know the truth.

The truth is hard.

Was that how what was that like?

This was a group of Trump supporters, and obviously, you're not running for vice president like some of the people are because you're not going to get it, just FYI.

You've been critical, not quite as loud as Christie, but or more colorfully as Christie, I guess.

Talk a little bit about why you did that and how you handled that, because it's tough when a crowd's booing you like that.

So, so, first and foremost, right, I've never bent the need of Donald Trump.

I've been that way since the very beginning.

And I'm the only person in this race that

can claim that title.

And going in,

this was a Lincoln Day dinner in Iowa.

And there's about 2,000 people.

And a lot of it is party activists.

And so I knew that some people were not going to like my message.

And ultimately, what I said was, Donald Trump is not running for president to make America great.

Donald Trump is not running to president to represent the people who voted for him in 2016 or 2020.

Donald Trump is running for president to stay out of prison.

And several people booed.

But what was fascinating and what I was not expecting was there are a lot of people that clapped.

And there were more people that sat their hands folded and quiet.

And my message was to those folks that know that that is true and saying that that it's okay.

And if we're not, if we're afraid to tell the truth, even when telling the truth is uncomfortable, then we're never going to get out of this morass that we are currently in.

I would assume it was different in the room, but there was heavy booing.

How do you deal with that?

You handle it well.

You're like, well, fine.

You don't have to agree with me, but I'm telling you the truth, essentially.

Look,

we knew it was going to happen.

And when it started booing, it's like, hey, you know, how do you calm the crowd down in order to finish?

Right.

And it was at the end of my speech and so it was just calmly walk off look it's it's not it's not um it's not a fun experience right but look i i i go back to when i was a kid um

I had I had messed up teeth until I was in high school.

I had a speech impediment until I was high school.

My head has been this size since I was four years old.

And like my mom, that's a fact.

I had a big head and I wore a size 14 shoe.

See, back then, you know,

to get a shoe over 12, it was only red and it was big.

And it wasn't cool back then to have red shoes, right?

So, so, you know, my, I'm, I'm half black, half white.

Um, and, and it was, you know, so I've gotten made fun of.

I gotten picked on, picked on a lot.

And, and so, I have a, I have a thick skin, um,

but, but, knowing and thinking through what your options are with something like that happens.

And guess what?

I do it again.

And, and what happened was when I was at the airport the next day, uh, people walked by and whispered, hey, thanks for being honest.

Um, I was at Walmart yesterday and some people came up and they're like, hey, Heard, thank you for being honest.

And so.

Do you think it's resonating?

It is.

It is.

Slowly but surely, people are starting to see that.

And if more people, look,

I've said this so many times.

I'm not a political scientist.

However, I have run and won some really tough elections, right?

You don't win by kissing your opponent's butt.

right and and why these other republicans are doing why why is that look i i they're afraid of donald trump they're they're afraid of his voters and i'm sorry if you can't stand up to donald trump how are you going to be able to have a a conversation and a debate with the current president of the united states how are you going to be in a position with vladimir putin xi jinpin dealing with uh president lopez obrador in mexico if you're afraid um to speak the truth when we all know it, then I'm sorry you're not fit.

You're not fit to be president.

Do any of them believe?

believe so i i will say that i look it's these are these are intelligent people these are intelligent people you know i go back to like january 6th right and and i and i knew all of my colleagues there were probably 15 people that actually

thought that the election was unfair right but everybody else knew that it was solid, right?

And so

I just, I don't understand.

If I understood why they're doing that and anybody who thinks, like, maybe they thought that Donald Trump was going to pull out, be like, oh, you know, these legal issues are too much.

You know,

I got to back out.

Or maybe he was going to have a heart attack, you know.

But why they're doing it, I don't know.

It's not a winning.

It's not a winning strategy.

And oh, and by the way, also, clones.

Never win, especially when the original is still in.

I think they thought he had shame and he doesn't.

That's the thing they thought he'd pull out.

In any case, we have a lot to talk about today.

Today, we'll talk about the special election Ohio, which was a big sign for these people, I would imagine.

What results mean for the GOP's campaign strategy.

We'll also talk about Donald Trump's Twitter account and why special counsel Jack Smith got a search warrant for it, among other things.

But first, we've been starting pretty much every show asking about Barbie.

It's just crossed the billion-dollar mark.

And message to Scott Galloway on vacation.

That's a billion dollars from the woke people.

You're welcome.

Have you seen it?

I've seen them both.

I love movies.

You know, my wife, I'm recently married.

We're in Q3 of marriage.

I like how campaign's a startup.

I'm in Q3 of marriage.

The love funds are open to the right.

Hugely romantic.

And so she has probably seen 400 movies in her entire life.

398 of them have been with me, right?

Like I, i love i love movies so we saw we saw oppenheimer and barbie on the the same on the same on the on the weekend it came out thought they were both excellent movies you know anybody who's criticizing barbie for like empowerment it's like come on it's about empowerment you should be supportive of it and it was funny the concept was interesting i thought michael sarah's character was pretty funny i i had never known that there was another

Alan.

Yeah, I didn't know there was an Alan doll.

And like, and working in the history of it was was great.

And Oppenheimer, I thought, I, look,

I've read a lot of books on

nuclear fission and partly because of my involvement in artificial intelligence.

I think AI and nuclear fission are have some equivalent.

Controlled, you have something amazing.

Uncontrolled, you have something destructive.

But I didn't know all the history about Oppenheimer.

after World War II.

So I appreciated that frame.

So yeah, loved book.

both.

What were your thoughts?

Yeah, what was your thoughts?

I loved it.

I loved it.

I think people, either, it's either just fun for people, and then you could just take it away like that.

I think it made fun of everybody.

It made fun of feminism.

It made fun of men's movements.

It made fun of just everybody, you know, and just ridiculousness.

But

it was funny.

It was lovely.

You can take away anything you want from it.

It was lovely.

And Oppenheimer was substantive, a little long, but really good.

Let me ask you a question, though.

It's the hundredth day of the writer's strike.

And obviously, you have been a more, the reason I know you is you've been a more tech-oriented congressman.

How do you look at where they are?

It's 100 days.

There's obviously AI is a very big part of it.

Sure.

Look,

I just put out a video about this.

And one of the issues, and I can't speak

the streaming residuals and all these issues, right?

Like

I'm of the opinion is that if you have frames for something, just adapt them and edit them for the new thing, right?

And so

I can't give you an authoritative or thoughtful issue there, but on one issue, facial rights, right?

It's real simple.

My face is my face.

And guess what?

Warner Brothers doesn't get to bring back Heath Ledger to play the Joker in Batman 17, right?

Or new actors can't be AI models of old actors.

And why should everybody care?

And look, I know that it's easy to kick Hollywood and

depending on where you are.

But guess what?

I love movies, man.

I love movies.

Our culture, our soft power matters.

Our culture, our music, our films, our TV shows, all that stuff has led to the greatness of America.

But

if a studio could do something like that with Heath Ledger, then guess what?

They're going to screw my next door neighbor if it was beneficial.

So I think one of the issues is around facial reactions.

Facial, which is what it is.

It's kind of interesting because as we record this, the FEC is expected to vote on a ban on deep fakes and campaign ads.

The ban would prevent candidates and political parties from deliberately misrepresenting their opponents with the use of AI.

AI has already played a big role in the 2024 presidential election when Joe Biden announced he would seek re-election.

The RNC released a video made with AI depicting a dystopian future.

Both the Trump campaign and the DeSantis campaign have produced videos using AI.

And you yourself have struggled with it.

An AI video was made altering your appearance on the view to suggest a guest told you to shut the hell up.

Here's what I think is important.

Donald Trump is a threat to our national security.

Oh, brother, please.

We all know that the country and the world was more secure under Trump.

So please just shut the hell up with a talking point for dummies.

They could have, but they didn't.

They clapped.

They clapped.

That was not one where I got booed.

That was definitely one where they were clapped, right?

Look,

Donald Trump is a threat to our national security.

and

so you've placed ai at the forefront of your campaign should the fec be regulating this or who should if you were still in congress and we're banning candidates and parties not just hollywood from using ai help when the everyday citizens can create misleading material as well sure so so fac has their um it's clear what their roles and guidance on are in in political advertising right and so so being narrow on political advertisement and things that can and cannot do I think that is I think that is fine within the FEC's purview when it comes to broader deep fakes and in our systems

you know talking about the

why you know what systems and what critical infrastructure should these not be allowed how platforms should be using the deep fake detection you know the the the reality is there's a number of companies that are working on how you detect deep fakes

and they're they're all pretty good.

And so making sure, you know,

how, if I share something on Twitter or whatever calling it today,

that that photo was doctored or that video was doctored.

And something more than just basic editing, right?

I put a, you know, something more than just I, you know, adjusted the darkness or something like that.

The technology exists, and I think there should be a conversation about how those platforms deploy that.

Do you worry about it as a candidate and, you know, a longtime politician?

Is it something that will become so deceptive that it's impossible to know who's telling the truth?

So I've had millions of dollars of negative advertising dropped on my head, right?

You know, and so

whether someone lies in

a mail piece, right, that's coming to someone's door or they lie in a video,

the concepts are ultimately the same.

But it requires us to be able to educate and have a way to hit back.

I think when it comes to political advertising, the ability for like super PACs and outside interests to incredibly juice this to potentially have an overwhelming opposition.

So a million people thought, you know, I got booed on stage, which, you know, in that case, because I know how, you know, it positively helped me in Iowa, I'm okay with it.

But these are difficult issues to deal with.

What I think Congress should be doing,

and this is in a broader sense, let's start with saying AI needs to follow the law.

We have a lot of rules on civil liberties and civil rights.

Let's make sure those apply.

Let's not have a carve-out for AI.

Let's not carve, you know, what we know about social media now, we would not have carved it out of the Communication and Decency Act a couple of decades ago.

You know, young women are, you know, because of images they're seeing are leading them to cutting themselves, right?

Like, that's not acceptable.

And, and this probably would not have happened if the same rules that radio and TV had at the time would have applied.

Like, that may not be enough, but it's a, but it's a start.

Is Congress as up to speed as they need to be?

You were one of the, you know, I'm trying to think I could name Ken Buck has gotten pretty good.

David Cicillini, who's left, was good in the House and the Senate.

Obviously, there's quite a few.

Chloe Bachar, Warner, Bennett.

There's some.

I'm trying to think on on the Republican side, not my homie from Nashville, Marsha, Senator Blackburn.

Look, she, she, no, look, she,

I agree, I agree.

She understands.

She understands.

Like, there's probably disagreements on other things, but but she understands.

Here's what I would say: she never misses an opportunity to politicize it when she could be sensible.

That's all I'm saying.

It's like, just talk about the danger, and you don't have to then throw in a, and by the way, Hillary Clinton's emails.

But go ahead,

go ahead.

Sorry.

These are the views of Kahara Swisher, not the co-host.

No, I get it.

You know what I mean?

It's like it's a serious enough issue that we don't need to muck it up with stupid partisanship.

Let's focus on the things we agree on, right?

Like, there's like I've always said way more unites us than divides us.

I will say this.

I was pretty shocked.

I've been pretty shocked by the hearings that Blumenthal and Josh Harley are doing.

Look, if you wanted to find complete opposites, it's Blumenthal and Holly.

And they're asking some of the right questions.

Now, can that turn into execution?

That's the real question.

That's what I mean.

Yeah.

You have to be nonpartisan on this stuff.

But

here is the problem.

Why do we not have a privacy standard in the United States?

Why is Europe,

I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you.

I know.

Why is Europe 24 to 36 months ahead of us when it comes to regulation on technologies?

We should be the one driving the world.

The reason is behind closed doors,

when

all outside groups and supporters say, yeah, we should have a privacy law.

But then behind closed door, the financial community says something very different and retailers come in and say something very different.

And that's what prevents

a privacy standard from happening because those two organizations and members of Congress are unwilling.

They're not smart enough on these issues to come in and say, yeah, you know, here's the decision I'm going to make, and here's a slide I'm going to come down on.

And so I think AI is early enough in it being an issue that we could potentially have some regulations on it.

Okay.

All right.

We'll see.

Well, speaking of which, Diane Feinstein is back home after a brief hospital visit following a fall.

A spokesperson said the fall was, quote, minor and that all of her scans were clear.

Just weeks ago, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell froze during a press conference, and Donald Trump and Joe Biden are 77 and 80, respectively.

A lot of these people do not understand tech, and I'm not going to focus it just on techs.

What is your take on these aging representatives?

Should there be a maximum age to serve?

And if we leave the decision to the politicians themselves, do we hurt constituents?

Well, look, so

how old are you?

I'm 45.

I turned 46 next week.

And you left.

And you left.

I left.

I walked away, right?

I had been asked,

do I support term limits?

And I said early on, I don't.

I was like, because guess what?

Vote somebody out.

And I always said, you don't have to die or be defeated to leave Congress.

And I walked away.

A 2020 election would have been my biggest win and

biggest victory.

Publicly traded companies force CEOs to walk out.

at a certain time, right?

And

so I can make an argument for.

I can also, I think it's slightly self-indulgent for me to be like, yeah, these people are too old.

And I think it's for the next generation to actually take.

If something, if I'm president and Congress put something on my desk, of course I would sign it.

If I was still in Congress,

I would probably vote for it.

And so it's like, we should be looking at

is there a disproportional advantage for incumbents to stay on office?

And I think maybe looking at that.

But look, age is going to be an issue.

I do not wish

Senator McConnell and Feinstein any ill will.

I'm glad

they're all doing better.

But yes, I think people that do not have an understanding of these issues and people that are making decisions about the future need to be the ones living in that future.

And so,

you know, age is going to be an issue, especially in the 2024 election.

And I can say, you know,

my father is 90.

We lost my mother this year.

And I know, I think the best person to comment on this was Jimmy Carter.

Jimmy Carter said, I've been 80 and I've been president, and you can't do both at the same time.

And so, yeah, look,

this is going to be an issue.

It's going to be a big issue.

It's going to be.

All right, let's get to our first big story.

Abortion rights activists won a decisive victory in Ohio this week in a special election.

Voters rejected a Republican-backed measure known as Issue One, which would have made it harder to change the state constitution.

It would have shifted it from a simple majority of 50 to 60 percent.

This November, an amendment to enshrine abortion rights in that constitution will be on the ballot.

And so they were trying to avoid that, although they tried to make it broader.

This was a landslide defeat, a resolution lost by 57 percent to 43 percent margin.

The voter turnout was incredibly high, higher than the midterm election, I believe.

There's six other statewide abortion-related ballot initiatives since Roe versus Wade was returned, and everyone so far abortion rights have won.

So, and

there's going to be more efforts, and people are, this seems to work.

So, what do you think the message is here for your party?

Well, look, so the message is this is going to continue to be an issue, and it obviously is not a winning issue.

I'm pro-life, but I also think there's a lot of agreement that with the exception, and I'm for exceptions, and

most people think that abortion shouldn't happen after 15 weeks

unless there's a life of the mother issue.

And so I think that's an area that

we can all cooperate on.

I also believe that if you are a state that has these serious restrictions,

you need to make sure it's clear that

when it comes to the life of the mother, like there's been some examples here in Texas where a woman was forced to carry

basically a dead child.

And like the,

I can't, I can't, I can't

fathom the mental anguish of that.

But if you also are going to be a state that has these laws, then your maternal health in that state needs to be first class.

Neonatal health needs to be first class.

Like the fact that

in many parts of the country, if you're a black woman that has a child, the maternal death rates are worse than in some developing worlds, right?

Like, so to me, like it's 2023 in the greatest country on the planet, when women are pregnant, they should not have an increased likelihood for death.

So, this is, I think, where

some of the messaging and where the party should ultimately be.

So,

you said that if Congress put a 15-week ban on your desk, if you're president, you would sign it.

You added if states are restricting this, those states could also have the best neonatal health, best maternity health care.

They don't do that.

They're very zeroed in on

six weeks, and they don't care about the born babies or the mothers that are carrying these children.

How do you win in this situation?

It's both cruel and

also cruel to the people that are involved in it, story after story after story.

It's a losing issue, a political issue, too.

Well, I think you don't win, right?

Like

that's what Ohio and Kansas and even Montana suggest.

And what was fascinating to me before this Ohio vote, there were several polls that were done that said, oh, this is going to be close, right?

This is going to be tight.

All the Republicans,

you know, senior Republicans in the state thought this was going to turn out.

And

this was an ass kicking, pardon my language.

And so

also for me,

let's start looking at what voters are actually saying and not looking at the polling.

Ohio is,

everybody still kind of thinks of it as a swing state.

It's a red state, right?

All the senior leaders are Republicans.

And when you look, you got to remind that Trump won Ohio.

And

so

this is an issue.

So why go down this lemming-like, you know,

the tyranny of the minority in this case?

They aren't listening to voters.

They may be running the state, but the voters don't seem to think they are.

And why take away voters' rights?

To me, it's like abortion rights, people seem to be broadly in favor of, or much looser ones for sure.

And they keep doing this.

What's within the GOP that will not stop in this?

It's a suicide march in a lot of ways, politically.

There's also an issue here about overreach for government.

Like, like, you know, people are getting frustrated with that.

Book bannings.

People are getting frustrated whether book bannings or whether you're a Republican governor in Florida or a Democratic governor in California telling businesses what they can and can't think or what they can or can't support.

You know, this is people are getting frustrated

by that.

And so I think there's another vein there.

And look, I think a lot of stuff I talk about, I talk about the vision of the Republican Party I want to see, the vision of the Republican Party that I subscribe to.

And this issue about local control is something that Republicans have gotten really really far away from.

And I think when you look at some of the numbers and why these ballot initiatives fail, it's because

there's a lot of people that are conservative leaning that it's like, hey, this is not the government's responsibility or role in here.

So stay out of it.

Right, stay out of it.

So if it's not a winning, abortion is not a winning issue for the GOP.

It clearly isn't.

They're taking a lot of lumps for it.

Can the party realize that and pivot?

Or are you captive of

these much more, I would say, cruel people because of what the impact people aren't listening to voters, what voters say.

There's not one poll that says voters do not want some level of abortion rights.

Look, I would say, I think when a guy like Mike Pence

is able to say, hey, 15 weeks makes sense, right?

And nobody's going to question Mike Pence's conservative evangelical roots.

And when he can say that, and that gets applause at a conservative crowd,

I think, you know, maybe that isn't, I don't know if I'd consider that a pivot,

but I think that's a sign that there's, you know, that there is, there's something potentially, you know, different or

where we can find some areas of.

So is that going to happen?

You've got a very short amount of time.

Look,

I can't speak to that, right?

Like the fact that I can tell you what I say and what I talk to people and people appreciate the perspective.

And, you know, and so, so can I, you know,

what everybody else is going to be focused on doing, that's up to them.

And, um, and, and where, where the broader party ends up on this issue, um, I don't know.

And look, I, I always talk about like pro-life, right?

Is you should be, you should care about life.

Like, the, it's fine.

I stopped talking about all the times I got booed.

Um, one of the first times I had a, I had a crowd really upset with me is because I said I was against the death penalty.

And this was a Republican primary electorate.

And I'm like, well, if you're pro-life, you should

prove

all the way through, right?

You should care about kids in cages, you know, on the border.

Like, like, you should care, you should care about life

at all times, right?

And so for me, being ideologically consistent is one of the more important things.

And that's how the party can continue to grow in larger, growing groups of voters.

Do you think this is something they'll pull?

Because they seem to be doubling down on book bans, attacking trans people, and strict, ridiculously cruel and strict abortion laws.

Seems like a prescription for loss all over the place.

And then you'll get exactly what you don't want.

Sure.

Look, here's, it's real simple.

Okay.

It's real simple.

Donald Trump, and what I can make an argument is the authoritarian wing of the Republican Party is a loser.

He hasn't won since 2016.

We lost the House in 2018.

And in 2020, we lost the Senate and the White House.

The lesson of 2020 was real simple.

Don't be a jerk and don't be a socialist.

The reason Joe Biden won with absolutely no coattails was because people like Donald Trump's a jerk, but all this other stuff,

what was the defund the police and defund ICE and all that kind of stuff.

People are like, nah, nah, nah, nah.

We're not having that.

And that's why people voted for Joe Biden for president and a Republican as their, as their member, as a member in Congress.

And so, yeah,

I would agree with your concept.

Guess what?

The way

the Republican Party, and again,

I know you like President Biden,

but there's a lot of Democrats that don't.

And there's a real opportunity.

There's a real opportunity for a Republican.

And everybody's like, well, Will,

how do you have the Republican, how do you have the GOP be palatable to independents and conservative Democrats?

Guess what?

Don't be a jerk.

Don't be a racist.

Don't be a humble.

Don't be a misogynist.

It seems pretty hard.

It seems pretty hard.

I really do hope you're getting through.

Listen, you'd be surprised who I vote for.

I vote for a lot of different people.

I do like reasonable people.

I was very out front liking Biden when everyone else was in love with Betto, who I thought was a manboy, a silly man boy.

But in any case,

and some people are too liberal in many ways.

Anyway, well, let's go on on a quick break.

When we come back, we'll talk about the latest on the Trump indictments, how the company formerly known as Twitter got involved.

We're going to keep calling it Twitter, by the way.

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Will, we're back for a second big story: the latest news of former President Donald Trump's legal troubles, of which there's more coming up next week, apparently.

First off, the government apparently obtained a search warrant for this past January for data and records related to Real Donald Trump Twitter account.

The Twitter was reportedly barred from even telling Trump about the warrant.

The company missed the deadline to produce the records and ended up paying a $350,000 fine for that delay.

That's not so weird to me.

Twitter was always slow in terms of giving things over to the government.

But what do you think they were looking for?

Will here, here are some theories someone sent me.

One, to see he had secret accounts.

Two, to see what devices he was posting from.

Three, to see the DMs on main and secret accounts.

And four, to see drafts of tweets or perhaps even tweets that Twitter refused to post or that he refused to post, which is interesting.

How do you feel about this?

So I think this is the prosecutor's trying to better understand

and understand his intentions.

My understanding of Donald Trump's habits is I don't think he's a big texter or emailer.

He would always print stuff out and

write stuff on with a Sharpie, you know?

And so, but those draft texts and interest, that may show

of his ability and how he was trying to coordinate.

And

it supports this narrative of

intent, but also conspiracy, right?

That, you know, it's funny, Bill Barr always reminds people: the conspiracy starts when you agree to do it.

It's not that the fact that you were successful in it.

So I think there will be some evidence to suggest that and coordination with some of those other groups, right?

January 6th started with Donald Trump

putting a tweet out.

And so to me, all of these cases are serious.

I've spent a little bit more time focusing on the classified document one, partly because I spent a decade as an undercover officer in the CIA overseas collecting intelligence.

Yeah.

So how do you look at that?

You do not have.

So there's two questions I would love Donald Trump to ask.

And if I got on the debate stage, I would ask these questions

with an opportunity.

And if people want to hear me answer, ask these questions, heardforamerica.com, give at least $1.

Why did he want to keep those documents when he was told,

you got classified stuff, you need to turn it back?

Just turn it back.

We would not be in this situation in this case if he'd give them back.

Why was he holding them?

Well, they're his.

They're his.

They're his beautiful paper.

Yeah, look, you had your golf shirts in it.

I get it.

But like, there's another reason of those specific documents.

Why do you give some back, but not all of them?

Why were you holding those?

Two,

Secret Service's responsibility is to protect Donald Trump and his family.

It is not to protect documents or classified information.

That is Donald Trump's responsibility.

So the fact that Donald Trump willingly knew he had classified documents

in an unsecure environment.

What did he do in order to protect access to them, to vet employees?

And he's never explained.

We all know that the Russians and the

Russians and the Chinese

are sophisticated and trying to get access to.

Whether they got access to them or not, I can't speak to that.

I have not seen evidence that that was the case, but that doesn't mean that

it wasn't potential.

But explain, why did you have access to those?

And to me.

For someone to have things that talked about our capabilities

with our overhead architecture, our satellites.

Sure, Sure, because you were in the middle of that in your job.

I was in the middle of it.

Look, I put my, I'm the only person in this race that's been shot at, chased, tried to be blown up, you know, be in places that were overrun by folks, right?

And it is a slap in the face to the thousands of men and women who are putting themselves in harm's way every single day and every single night in order for us to be safe and to enjoy the freedoms that we enjoy.

To me, that's just that's like that is that part is outrageous.

Do you have any idea?

Why do you think he did it?

And why do you think he didn't protect them and handed it over to the pool guy, essentially?

Right.

The pool guy took.

I think he didn't protect him because

he didn't value the importance of this.

I think he was incapable of understanding the importance of the materials that he had.

Like, I just think he's deficient in that.

Or he didn't care about putting people in danger.

Yeah.

he,

and, and it's a hubris to think, oh, nothing's going to happen to this, you know, and and so, but why he wanted them, I don't know.

Look, he wanted them.

And again, I'm not a, I'm not a Donald Trump psychologist,

but just we know the one example of when he shared some of the war plans.

He wanted to brag.

He wanted to brag.

And so if he's bragging to the author of his staffer's biography, who else is he bragging to?

Right.

And

that's why he had him.

He had them for props.

And to me, that's just, that's unforgivable.

That means you're unfit for office.

And we should all be horrified, especially at a time when,

and look, our adversaries.

are laughing, right?

The Chinese government is laughing.

The Russians are thankful that all of this stuff is is happening and then our allies are like

horrified yeah horrified right and and and the chinese were just happening hacking the japanese too speaking of which it's everywhere you know it's they're hacking the united states government right look look you you know you've seen the stats about the zero day the zero day attacks that have happened in the last year all of them all the new ones were from the chinese it to the to the defense industrial base right like like the chinese is is they're trying to surpass us as a global superpower.

This is not my opinion.

It's what they say about themselves.

They're going to do that by being a leader in a number of advanced technologies, and they're showing a level of aggression at all levels, from diplomacy to cyber attacks.

And, and, and we're, and, and we're having debates.

We're opening the door.

Yeah, I got it.

About whether we should ban books or, or have classified documents in your loo, right?

Yeah.

And the answer to both those questions is no.

Let's get on to the next, let's get on to the next topic, right?

So, let me say the indictments that, besides this one, are coming.

Is there a new in Georgia, which is again the fourth, where the DAN Atlanta is expected to present her findings from an investigation Trump's alleged election interference?

She does have tape of him saying it, actually, which seems to be a problem for him.

Fulton County District Attorney Fannie Willis is reportedly aiming for conspiracy and racketeering.

They have a very broad racketeering laws in Georgia.

Just a reminder, there are three other criminal cases.

As you said, the January 6th and 2020 election inquiry, the classified documents case, and I agree it's incredibly, it's both depressing and heinous.

And the Manhattan hush money case, which everyone's forgotten about at this point.

The 86% of Republicans in a CBS poll believe these indictments, investigators have political motives to disrupt Trump's campaign.

I talked to Frank Luntz

earlier in the week, and he's like, you know, obviously the polls go up when these things happen.

And this fourth one, he said, it'll put him over the top.

But it's putting over the top with people who...

who are a small minority of people and not able to make the presidency.

And perhaps you don't even want him him to be president.

So that's a good thing.

Obviously, you don't.

How positive is this for Trump?

And how ultimately negative is it?

Because I think it's ultimately negative.

So

I think this, again, I'm not a lawyer, right?

I think this, this Georgia case is one of the clearest issues because we have the call.

We've all heard the phone call of Donald Trump asking a state employee to commit a crime that he knew was a crime, right?

Like, like, like

find the votes here.

Right, right, right.

Like, that's, that's like, that's pretty clear to me, right?

So, so here is where

polling is a snapshot in time.

It's a very narrow insight.

And so, so would most Republicans be like, Joe Biden and everybody associated with them hate Donald Trump?

Yeah, of course, right?

Would they be like,

there's some political activism here?

I can understand why they say that.

But is that going to translate 25 weeks from now into them voting for Donald Trump?

Ultimately, what I think, and

when you juxtapose national polling with some of the state polling, Donald Trump is probably going to get 30% of the Republican primary voters.

No matter what.

Their rider dies.

They're going with him.

They got the hats.

They got the t-shirts, no matter what, no matter what happens, right?

I don't know, she'd appreciate being compared.

You know, oh, she would beat him in election,

Barbie and T.

Swift are keeping the economy going, you know, what billion dollars?

Like, that's crazy.

It's the feminists, the feminists are keeping it.

Girl power is keeping everyone going.

So, so

for

me, um,

this is what I always ask people: Let's do this thought experiment.

Who's the independent or

conservative Democrat that voted for Joe Biden in 2020?

And then in 2024, it's like, you know what?

Donald J.

Trump's my guy.

That doesn't exist.

It doesn't exist, right?

So all the polling that shows that Trump is...

So they'll go, he's old, but yes, I can't.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm going to hold my nose for all that group of people, right?

And so, so this is what I keep telling republicans if the gop nominates donald trump as our as our nominee we are willingly giving four more years to

joe biden right and because there is no way oh and by the way right like

i don't mean this in a in a in a derogatory way he literally campaigned from his basement right and he still beats you right like like like come on and and so so anyway you notice he's not saying much he's biking around around and sitting on the beach.

And every time he says nothing, his polls go up.

Biden said nothing.

It makes no sense.

And ultimately, I also think the path.

So all of these court cases, no one is above the law, right?

And

for those that want to criticize and bring up Hunter Biden and all that.

So the person who's going to prosecute that case is someone who's been indicted like 90 times.

Like that, that makes no sense if that's something you care about.

And and and what I the the the pathway is there's a lot of Republicans that once we start getting into the winter that people start paying attention to the election

are going to be like, yeah, I voted for Donald Trump twice, but he's got too much baggage and we need to look somewhere else.

And then also the fact that Ron DeSantis has basically stumbled and

is is faltering.

If you're not Donald Trump, if your name is not Trump, I think your chances are pretty much equal

in this Republican primary of the group.

That's what you're hoping for.

That's what you're hoping for.

Can I ask you very briefly because we've got to get going, but why do you think DeSantis has stumbled so much?

I think, as you know, I think he's charmless.

You know, do you remember when Obama said Hillary Clinton was likable enough?

Remember that?

Which was

worked.

It worked, no matter how you slice it.

I think he's unlikable enough.

I've always thought he's charmless.

that's a good title.

That's a good title.

Unlikable husband.

Yeah.

The wife, I would possibly take a wife is charming, but not him.

Look, so when you're more interested in fighting

my friends in the LGBTQ community than you are Vladimir Putin, we got a problem.

When you think Cinderella is a bigger national security threat than anything else,

than a president storing documents in his bathroom, then we have a problem.

And so, you know, there's no upside to slavery, right?

You know, if you want to come in and defend it and be like, I didn't write it.

Well, it's not my fault.

It's not my fault.

I didn't write it.

Right.

That's not leadership.

Then change the phrase to be like, listen, that's not our, that was not our intention.

I'm going to call everybody back.

I'm going to call everybody back.

Yeah, he doubles down.

Fix that word ink, right?

It's that simple.

Then you hire a guy, like a known neo-Nazi, or let me not be hyperbolic.

I think he was like an anti-semite, right?

Like, and that, that he knew that he, like, he knew that in advance.

Like, and then you hire, you hire that.

And then all the anti-LGBTQ stuff, right?

That's called a pattern.

And, and I think those are all the reasons that he's, that he's failing.

Oh, and Republicans don't like authority trying to concentrate power in the hands of the few and telling businesses what the how they can and cannot think yeah so that's it so everybody's got a chance if if trump stumbles at some point or people or the penny suddenly drops with everybody yeah or or or it's it's taken right like and and and that's that's our thesis right i do think you're right i think everyone has a chance i think it'll be interesting to see who pulls forward but i think you can't

i think trump is going to stumble i think he's going to stumble ultimately he doesn't want to spend his life the rest of his life in prison so we'll see he's got to me he's got to this is my calculation he's got to win which he's not going going to do unless something incredible happened.

So he's got to win.

He's got to hope a Republican who'll give him a pardon wins, which is not a certainty.

There's pretty much, it's just Vivek and that guy, whatever he is, and

DeSantis.

Everyone else is like, pardon?

Probably not.

Or he's going to jail.

Or he's going to jail.

And it may be at Mar-a-Lago with a with a bracelet on his leg, but he's not going anywhere.

It's not a great, he doesn't, he's not going to enjoy.

He could make a fake presidential office at Mar-a-Lago and pretend he's president the rest of his life.

That's the best choice for him.

Anyway, Will, we've got one more quick break.

We'll be back for predictions.

Do you have a good prediction?

We'll see.

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Okay, well, let's hear a prediction.

It can be on anything.

It doesn't have to be political, but it certainly can.

Can I give three real quick?

Yes, sure.

Go right ahead.

Okay.

Pivot listeners put Will Heard over the top of his 40,000 because they all went to herdforamerica.com and gave at least $1.

That's prediction number one.

Number two, the 2024 NBA champions are my San Antonio Spurs

because of Wimby.

And number three.

Why is it sports with you people?

Luntz was talking about the Orioles, but go ahead, move along, move along.

That cat,

the Harvard professor that took all that metal out of the ocean because he thought it was like going to prove extraterrestrial life.

I don't think it's, I think the final analysis is not going to be clear that that was so.

You don't believe in UFOs?

I didn't say that.

I just think those pebbles that he got out of the ocean are not going to, are not going going to uh be the definitive case

there's some don't you think it's time for the aliens to show up now just about now like

okay that's enough human humanity we've been watching you and we're tired it's like you know well i my brother my brother my big brother is a big star trek fan and and i forget which star trek it was and they're talking about the history of the world and it was like there was world peace on earth when when aliens showed up that's right because that's right we were all banned together first it's called first contact there was a whole movie about great movie great movie yeah first contact arrival arrival is another good we need a first contact either it's got to be a simulation that we realize and it's over and some teenagers are going to sick of us or

aliens need to get here immediately what would you say if you're president what would you say to the aliens if they showed up what would do your first message as president president will heard i'd be like

let's work together Let's find.

I'm going to say what I always say.

We can find way more to unite us and divide us.

Let's

eat us.

What if they want to eat us?

If they want to eat us, be like, you know, let's hope.

To serve man.

It's a cookbook.

I don't know if y'all have nuclear weapons where you come from, but we can shoot ours into space.

Yeah, that was the plot of like, I think, Independence Day.

I think that's what that happened.

Anyway, what's your prediction?

Yeah.

I think the writers and Hollywood strike is going to possibly go until January 15th, at least.

I thought several people were thinking October 14th, maybe, but certainly not.

Now that it's August, they're all on vacation.

They all go on vacation.

What's the specific date?

How are you going to do that?

Because they have to really, it really ruins next summer for them if they don't get working by January 15th.

I think everyone will feel the pressure by then.

I think writers and actors will be out of work, and they can only do so many cameos, the actors,

which is what a lot of them are doing right now to make money.

They can do ads and cameos pretty much.

I I don't even think they can do ads.

So I think that's going to be

the financial pressure on writers and it's 100 days today, I think.

It's a real, and I think yelling at Bob Iger saying he makes too much money is just not going to work after a while.

Ultimately, it doesn't work.

So I think that's, they'll have to, they'll come to an agreement.

And I think the studios, that's when the studios really have pressure because they're doing well because they're saving money right now.

It's good for their bottom line.

And I think there's plenty plenty of content.

But by summer, if they really go to January, they'll have problems with summer

kind of thing.

So we'll see.

That's when they'll push.

What's your sports prediction?

I don't have any.

I don't watch sports, Wilhelm.

I'm the only lesbian in America who hates sports, which is the way it is.

I'm sorry.

I hate it.

I have sporty sons.

They both are very athletic.

I have to go to all these events, and I hate every one of them.

And if I look at my phone, my sons clock it and say, put down your phone.

And so it's hell.

And now my third son, who is only one and a half, seems to like sports, which is a real problem.

So

anyway, anyway.

You do you.

You do you.

I do me.

I really don't like sports.

I don't even like Megan Rapino kicking.

And I like Megan Rapino, by the way, as opposed to.

And by the way, Megan Rapino, good for you with an amazing career.

Even if you didn't make that last kick, astonishing athlete.

I still didn't watch it.

It doesn't matter.

Anyway, and she's a lesbian.

You think I would, but I don't.

In any case, there we have it um will thank you so much i love people being on the debate stage you're you know highly intelligent person who should be talking about issues like ai and and reasonability i guess being reasonable um and you're sort of the nicer chris christie essentially um so

he's I think he's effective.

I think it's effective.

He keeps going.

He's good at, he's a former prosecutor, so he should be.

I do think people need to be able to debate on the stage, especially the Republican Party, and bring people to their senses, because I do like divided government myself and I like lots of points of view.

So I really do hope you give him a dollar.

I am going to go do that right now.

You said $5.

You said you give him $5.

They give $1, you give $5.

I'll give $5.

I gave Christy $5.

I'll give you $5.

Do not make me give Vivek Ramaswamy anything.

There's things I'd like to give him we're not supposed to say.

Anyway, I will read us out and thank you so much and good luck with your campaign.

Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman and Taylor Griffin.

Ernie Enderdott engineered this episode.

Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business with some new fresh people, including Don Lemon, who's coming on next week, so that should be interesting.

Thank you so much, Will.

Thanks for coming.

Thanks for having me on.

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