Trouble at Basecamp, Bezos fights for the moon, and a listener question about dating apps

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Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from the Vox Media Podcast Network.
I'm Kara Swisher. And Daddy's Hungover.
I see that. I knew you went out last night.
You went out with Joanna Coles, didn't you?

You had a party.

We went in. She assembled some super interesting friends.
And

I brought a candle because I like Joanna and I just think you need to bring a candle. You're a Kemity or whatever, right?

I pinged my assistant and said, I just have no idea what to get this person. She's impressive and smart.
I don't want it to be. And she's like, a candle.
And I'm like, that's genius.

A candle is perfect. Did you get her the Gwyneth Paltrow vagina candle?

No, those are just for me. Okay.

No, I got her the Dipteak. Oh, yeah, that's the one.

That's the fancy one. That's the one when you don't know what to buy, rich people, that's what you buy.

Hello.

Hello. So, Daddy,

Daddy hung out with Joanna Coles and Jack is in Jack Daniels, and I'm paying the price now. Yeah, I knew.
You too. I wouldn't even want to think about a party between you.

I hear she has a hip apartment and everything else because she's a hip lady. She's a super hip.
Yeah. She is super hip.
She is super hip. Oh, but you know what?

I invited my Twitter boyfriend, George Hahn, the first time I got to meet him. And

he's lovely. Yeah.
He's small and

funny and handsome. And he has, I think, a really nice, I don't know, real authentic and real soul.
Was the meeting awkward, the initial meeting, since you were Twitter pals?

No, we like each other, and it kind of was nice. It was sort of when I was, I'm thinking about one of the...

One of the nice things, or I don't know, from tragedy comes inspiration, is

he's a guy I met, or I just started corresponding with on Twitter. And we become friends.
And it was just very rewarding to finally get a chance to meet in person. Well, that's funny.

He could have been a stalker, like a crazy person, you know?

You know what? I'm just saying. I could use a couple stalkers.
That is fair. Okay.
That's not funny. Stalkers are not funny.
That's not funny.

We do not back stalkers here at Pivot, except for Scott Galloway. He does.

That's good. That's great.
Who else was there? You care to say?

I probably shouldn't.

They haven't signed a release form. All right.

But, you know, as you're imagining,

his friends are really, you know, smart, nice. Yeah.

Yes. The professional poker player.
That was interesting. Oh, that's interesting.
Speaking of poker,

what's Rudy Giuliani going to do? His apartment and office are being searched as part of an investigation into whether Mr.

Giuliani broke lobbying laws as President Trump's lawyer in connection with deals with Ukraine. What do you think the answer to that is? So let me listen.

We contacted our friend Preet Bihar, and he did not have time to give us a special thing. But here's what he wants.
We want to know what the dog thinks. We want to know what Preet Burari thinks.

I'll ask what you think in a second. But let's listen to what Preet,

our gentle lover, Preet,

says. But it's very, very significant.
It's a very aggressive step. I know the folks at the SDNY.
I hired a lot of them.

And they would only do something like this that's so significant if they believed very strongly based on the facts and the law that there's something worthwhile pursuing here.

Yeah, that's what they all say. But nonetheless, he hired most of them, just FYI.
What do you think, Scott? What do you think of the Rudy situation? Well, let's just break down that comment. Okay.

Hold Hold on. Let me just interpret what he said.
I'm a fucking baller and I'm going to say nothing. Okay.

I'm a baller.

He's saying this is serious shit. At this point, no joke, and

I don't know the semantics of this type of defense. I think a viable defense for Rudy Giuliani, should he ever end up in court,

is insanity.

But look at where this guy was 30 years ago.

He ran the southern district. He did.
He was the district attorney. And now he is,

it appears, he is showing this reckless, wanton approach to breaking the law. Yeah.
He says he knows how not to break the law, by the way, because he did all that. Just he said that.

I agree with Preet.

It just looks as if he's been cohorting with Ukrainian cooperatives. Yeah.

I mean, it just, what, I think at this point, his behavior, and they could show clips from Bora.

I think you could really assemble a credible insanity plea here. Yeah.

Did you see his son who looks like Will Farrell

going on and on about how this is a miscarriage of justice? We should all be scared. I'm not scared.
I'm not scared, Andrew Giuliani, because I don't cavort with Ukrainians. Yeah, I don't.

I'd take

whatever the heck he was doing. Plus, he should spend some time in the big house just for that hair dye.
Yeah. That is criminal.
Man, that would be something.

Well, Michael Cohen went down for less, apparently. So, and he was in the jungle.

I think it's,

it's just strange. It shocks me that anyone would get near.
I'm shocked to me anyone would go to the buffet at the at Mar-a-Lago because this guy. Anyone near Trump has gotten Michael Flynn.

They all did.

You get your reputation ruined or you get your

FBI show up in the middle of the night and take your electronics to try and. Yep.
I mean, it's just, it's just. Maybe they're just bad people around him.
I could be. I don't know.

I'm hastening a guess here. Anyway, it's interesting.

It will be a great story and actually a very good movie at some point.

By the way, speaking of fighting that's going on, we'll see. I think Juliana will kick and scream his whole way to prison, essentially.

Speaking of kicking and screaming, last week a judge ordered the work be stopped on the $10 billion cloud computing project for the Defense Department called Joint Enterprise Defense Infrastructure Project, also known as Jedi.

The sealed opinion, which I've heard a lot about, and it's not that sealed, is a big win for Amazon, who says the contract was unfairly awarded to Microsoft because of President Trump's distaste for Amazon founder Jeff Bezos.

So this was the contract that Bezos looked like he had won. Then apparently

Trump interceded, and then it went to Microsoft in the end.

Bezos also took aim at Elon Musk and his

contract with NASA around the moon base, essentially, moon stuff that we're going to be doing and stuff. So Bezos, by pushing back and suing, Bezos has a win here, but we'll see where it goes.

Now it has to, it has to keep going on. But I can't imagine the Biden administration defending a Trump administration effort to stick it to Jeff Bezos, but we'll see.

Well, I don't know. Let's find out what Preet thinks.
What do you think?

I bet there's teeth here. I mean, you're coming off an administration that was, if they thought they could hand out contracts like they were seats at a political fundraiser.

And it was it was fairly apparent with this whole TikTok shit show

circus weirdness that

Trump likes Microsoft. So

I don't think

in that case, he liked Oracle better than Microsoft. Remember?

Didn't he sort of like Microsoft? He did initially have a talk, but he wanted a VIG. And I think they didn't, Microsoft acted like a normal.
Look, here's the deal.

Microsoft is perfectly capable of doing this infrastructure project.

They got tarnished by this.

Anything Trump touches tarnishes you, even the affiliation.

100%.

Yeah. So I don't think we've heard the last of this.

I think they probably have, I mean, $10 billion of serious cabbage.

And

I think they'll probably find, I wouldn't be surprised if they end up having to redo it or redo the, but this is

because they need to do it. It wouldn't be a surprise.
They need to get this stuff done now. I mean, especially with solar winds and all this other stuff.

You know, who's the win for? Russia, China. You know what, Kara? You're exactly right.

Nothing is as oppressive as a feeble and weak government. And that's what we had for four years.
Yeah, his obsession with Jeff Bezos is strange. But Jeff is, you know, doing a lot of lawsuits.

Everybody wants these defense contracts or government contracts. And this is where the big business for

everyone,

Amazon, for Google, for

Microsoft, these are big, they're sort of shoving aside, and Elon too, they're shoving aside the Lockheeds and the General Dynamics and all these other people to do these things because they're largely cyber-based.

And so these are the companies you would go to naturally.

By the way, did you see Apple's earnings? Yeah.

Oh, my God. Killing it.
Oh, my God.

Their revenues

were up 54%. The iPhone sales were up 66%.

Sales in China were like up 85%.

It's just staggering how many cylinders this company is firing on. I just couldn't.
I'm just interesting sort of the attacks on

two-thirds of their sales are outside the U.S. I mean, they're incredibly well-diversified.
Their services revenue grew 20. I mean, I mean, geez.
They can go in any direction here. They can.
Healthy.

Available. Health.

We have to buy that Peloton. Peloton's sort of suffering a little because of some problems around its trend.
Supply chain.

And who's got the best supply chain in the world? Tim Cook. I don't know.
Apple. Tim Cook.
You know what? But again, you know where I think they're going?

I think the $100 billion moment, one of the first moments in business history where $100 billion is transferred in a minute between companies, I'm telling you, Tim Cook's going to get on stage and he's going to roll out a car with an Apple logo on it.

Well, he did talk about that with me. Are you going to get on that list? Yeah.
100%. If you're not shouting, I would get on that list.
I would. It's interesting because

I really have to think about what I would buy if I bought a car. I've written comms saying I won't buy a gas car.
But looking in an electric car. Getting in a gas car with you.

I know. I know we go.
I say owning a gas car. It's more like a go-kart.
It was designed for you.

That was literally like a lawnmower with doors. That's what he said.
By the way, you could not put Giant Man in there. Oh, yeah, I know.
That's what he said. He would have an LA.

He said we need to get another car, Mom, because this was my older son's car, who's slightly shorter.

But yeah, Giant Man, he always is like putting his head on the ceiling and thinking it's hysterical.

Unless it's like one of those Flintstone cars where there's no floor and he uses his legs to go 800 miles an hour. He could do that.

But yeah, it's interesting. Yes, you're right.
I was thinking, if Apple did it, I'd buy it in a second. 100%.
I would buy it in 1.2 seconds. The strongest brand in the world.
No question.

And I bet they'd figure out a way to do it very easily. That's

the way I was going with that is the moment he unveils, he pulls back

that cover of that curtain, Tesla sheds $100 billion, which, by the way, would only be 16% of its market cap to Apple. You know, Tesla is 80% of electric car sales.

And you know, the whole EV market globally is like one and a half, it's like $2 million, and there's $1.3 billion billion cars.

I mean, the EV market is still small it's like my dad used to say you know when he was a salesman and he would try and you know have a moment of like trying to create inspiration for you he's like okay a salesman a set one salesman goes to this country and he says is a shoe salesman and he says this is terrible nobody wears shoes here and the other salesman goes and says this is great no one has shoes so

and i'm like oh wait so you want to be the guy that that that doesn't waste money where they don't and he's like no the glass is half full you have we let's all sat and then he hit me across the head.

Oh, my God.

Mom. Anyways, hold me, Kara.
I have learned so much about you in the past week with the visitor. And then he moved in.
And then he moved in a flight attendant.

And then he moved in with a flight attendant from Continental Airlines. And I was living in a small apartment in the valley.
I was in my dad, your son, and you and Kilts.

I think we're way past that at this point.

All right. So the point being.
Why am I? The point being, it's a big opportunity. I think that's what you're saying.
Did I mention I'm hungover? Well, yeah, I know that. Thanks, Joanna Coles.

Joanna Coles, you know, once created a sex act with my name on it, the swisher.

Once created a sex act. On stage.
She was on stage at a code event, and she said, what would the swisher be as a sex act? That's rendered me speechless. That's her whole goal.
I just want to say that.

Yeah, we're not touching that here.

We're not touching that. But nonetheless, Joanna Coles.
Bring in Preet. Ask Preet that question.

Joanna Coles literally said that on a public stage, and I was rendered mute. That was, she was, I have to give it to her.
Hey, that's never happened.

No, that's never happened until she said, what would the swisho be? You know, she did in that British voice, that naughty British voice. She's a baller.
She's got SPACs. She's on boards.
SPACs.

She's all over the place. Anyway, I don't want to talk about your hijinks with Joanna Coles in New York.
All right. Let's talk.
Let's talk about the big story.

Which is the Base Camp controversy. Basecamp is in hot water this week.
Here's what happened.

On Monday, CEO Jason Freed sent out a memo announcing the company would be banning employees to holding, quote, societal and political discussion on the company's internal chat forms.

The memo also said the company would end paternalistic benefits, such as farmers' market stipends and wellness allowances, giving them money instead to do what they will. And then co-founder David

Heinemeyer Hansen followed his memo with his own expanding on the controversial ban. And they kept putting out more and more memos as things got hot.

According to article in The Verge, the events that led up to the ban was the circulation of an employee-generated list of representative names, names representatives found funny.

Actually, Casey Newton wrote that story on the platform found funny, many of which were making fun of non-American Anglo-Saxon names, although they also made fun of Anglo-Saxon names.

The announcements at Basecamp are similar to workplace decisions made at Coinbase, sort of.

It's a little more complicated than just that they did this. There's all kinds of back thing.
And a lot of their employees are on the, they only have 60 employees actually, or about 58,

on the on the board saying this is not what they're representing is not what happened. They just had a diversity and inclusion committee.
They got David, the EHH, as he's known, who's very volatile.

If you see him on Twitter or anything else, they got into it over

something. And then he just did this because he just didn't want to talk about it anymore.

And this group, this DE, this diversity and inclusion committee had just gotten started in February, and half the employees

signed up for it. So it's kind of a little more complex than just sort of these CEOs doing this.
I happen to like Jason Freed a lot.

This, I think, is a little bit of a black eye for him, the way they rolled this out. But it's also what a lot of CEOs are thinking.
They don't want to listen to their employees anymore.

And Silicon Valley has given their employees great,

a great amount of ability to speak. And now that they're speaking, they don't want to hear them speak anymore.
What do you think?

Yeah, I think there's a place. I think that companies so companies, when they start donating a lot of money to political action committees and

putting squares

in certain fonts saying Black Lives Matter, they kind of have dipped into the political pool and they can't decide when they want to be in and when they don't.

And with a more politically conscious generation that every tech firm is trying to attract, it's understandable that these and in a kind of a full employment economy, it's understandable that employees now have, you know, want to know the company's viewpoint.

But at the same time, you're right to express as a a company, and we personify companies, which I just think is weird, but your right or your expectation that a company has a political viewpoint or weighs in, a political viewpoint is also to not have one and to be apolitical.

And I do think there is room. I don't know, Kara.
I think there's more. Well, hold on, hold on, hold on.

I do think there's people out there that don't live and breathe politics and want to go to work and create economic security for them and their families and have good relationships with their colleagues and not find out that the guy or gal next to them is a Trumper or really

far left and start and bring that bullshit to work. I do think that there's a lot of people that say, I get it.

But if a few companies decide that, you know what, we are about, we are a fantastic legal entity where we bring human resources together and intellectual property to help all of us create economic security for us and our families such we can put food on the table.

And then on evenings and weekends, if you want to go to a Bernie or a QAnon rally, that's your business. Right.
But we're not going to be in that business.

That makes sense for people who didn't let them do it for years and years and then don't want to listen to them now.

This is, this is, it's sort of are you talking about the tech community or this community? Yeah, tech community, literally.

I've never, in fact, I used to be like, why are they letting all these employees say all these things? You know what I mean? But they did. That's what they did.

They raised, they did all the virtue signaling around and like here, have a meme generator, meet the CEO on Friday and tell us whatever you think,

et cetera, et cetera. Politics, though? There's the difference between open diversity.

Everything from politics to I don't like the kombucha. Like, I have been in these things and I cannot believe them sometimes, sort of.
And

they have raised a generation of people saying, talk all you want. And when you don't,

when they decided it got a little too tiresome for them, when it made them slightly uncomfortable, and

they were starting to discover things about hiring and salaries and stuff like that, they wanted them to shut up. I think it's a very, I don't think, I agree with you.

It's complex to start these things at work. And every workplace I have has this problem where people bring their their whole selves to work.

But what about after the riots, not letting people talk about it? That's insane. That's insane.
It's just it used to be around a water cooler versus on an internal board. And people are remotely.

I just don't buy that. Every company feels people feel a need to have customers.
I agree, but these companies let people do that. Well, I'll tell you, I'll give you a tip.

So I've been the CEO of several companies in my startups, and we had all hands every Friday. And whenever anyone brought up an issue that

they were upset about or they complained complained about or when they were ever unhappy with our approach to anything, you know what my response was? Yeah.

That's what the money's for. All right.
Get back to work. That's because you said that at the beginning.
That's what I'm saying. I'm just saying they created these things and then got uncomfortable.

And it does smack of white men being uncomfortable with some things because, you know, this is they just pretended it was a group of people at this company and then it really wasn't a group of people.

A group of white men. That's not.
It is. It's true.
It's white men uncomfortable. Let me read you some tweets.
I'm going to read. i'm gonna

most of these companies are run by white guys and they don't like hearing this now listen and they're also famous for talking about having a different type of workplace for their books all right let me just read okay i work at base camp and i co-spearheaded the da council formation i've seen people ask what uh dei council did to warrant such a response the answer is nothing we formed in february and we're still getting ourselves organized they pointed to this council which they've never done anything another one uh excited to read the new shut up and work book by base camp guys before they said you should talk at work.

For some reasons, I'm becoming increasingly more shook by this Basecamp post. Like, I don't even work there, but it feels like a signpost the future was to come across the industry.

White men are tired. Try being a black person.
I'm fucking exhausted.

Love that Basecamp marketed itself on rejection of capitalism and company culture for literal decades to pivot into the purest form of capitalist white enterprise where only your work matters because inherently you're not a human, just a means of production.

Another, this is a smart, this is from Erica Joy, who I always think is very smart. Lots to be said about this, but I have a meta thought.

Some companies have recently created policies that are eerily similar to this. They just don't have the gumption to publish them publicly.
I wonder who is leading and who is following.

And then two more. I'm going to read two more.
Deeply disappointed by the latest Basecamp announcement. I stand by my recent comments about this historical moment.

Social contracts are being renegotiated. In the process, we'll discover the limits of many leaders.
Basecamp to Apple. We do all the work.
We deserve more than 70%.

Basecamp to employees, you deserve 10%. I'm just saying, it's a really complex topic.

They were signaling and signaling, and this is the last one, actually.

If you insist on reading between the lines of the base camp thing, I'm seeing reduction in benefits, shift to profit-based comp, offer of severance packages, hiring freeze since 2019.

To me, it looks like layoffs with some anti-woke noise as a distraction. It's very complex.
I'm just saying. I'm not going to say this is the greatest stand by people who don't want wokeness at work.

I just have never wanted unemployment to go up such that we had to deal with a few of these whiny little bitches called tech employees.

Jesus Christ. No, they made them this way, and they should be able to talk.
And by the way, if something happened, when a shooting happens, or the George Floyd thing, people are.

I just escalated fast. I'm just, no, I think there's places where you can't.
I agree that some of these boards go crazy, but they've let them do it.

And now they've got to have a smart talk and then actually deliver.

It's hard to put the genie back in the box. And they have to actually deliver

more diversity in a significant way. Sorry.
Actually, Casey Noon had a good take on it.

It'd be great to call in Casey, except we can't because he's having breakfast with pre-fucking Barrara right now. Casey's piece is excellent.
And actually, Casey came down where I am, by the way.

It's really, it's a little bit more. That's a shocker.
Yeah, that's a shocker. No, but he did a great recording.

He's like, look, they got into a big old mess and they didn't know how to get out of it. That's Casey Newton.
You know what? What? Swisher Casey Newton. We love each other.
Dude, I just stayed there.

Okay, I got that. I got that.
Got it. Anyway, all right.
We're going to talk about it more, but I think it's a little bit more than anti-woke. We're protecting it.

These people, this is a really complex situation. It deserves to be talked about.
Those two talk a lot. I'm hoping to get to talk about it.

The total fixed problem is when they miss their earnings and they're in danger of going out of business. Oh, you know what? Fine.
If it was any other, if it's like

BNG, I get it. The other, these companies have let this go on for a long time.
And then when there's real...

Let's talk about the actual business. I don't know much about it.
They have productivity software and then they've tried to do an email thing. And I think they're running against a wall for that.

But they've fighting with Apple, by the way. There's that Apple thing in terms of they fought with them over that thing.
They get very high and mighty when it comes to Apple.

And then when it's their own thing, it's complex. It's complex.
Scott, that's all I'm going to say.

It's complex. Oh, my God.
You're winning.

And shut up and work. You don't do that.
You don't do that. And people can't do that anymore.

That's what the money's for. It's a different workplace, my friend.
Anyway, and you know what? I think

it's like that man. I'm exhausted.
I'm motivated.

Buy your own damn snacks. It just points out that they run the show and they pretend they don't run the show and they do run the show.

That's the message I get is that they do as they damn well please, but they pretend they don't and they give signals that they don't.

Thank you. All right, we're going to take a quick break.
We'll be right back to talk about Bezos Fighting for the Moon and a listener mail question.

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Okay, Scott, we're back. Bezos, as we talked about, was

one that sort of won this round with Microsoft on the Jedi contract. He's not giving up on the moon that easily, Elon.

This week, Jeff Bezos, the CEO of Blue Origin, where he's spending a lot of his time and he's going to be stepping down from Amazon very soon, submitted a 159-page petition to the Government Accountability Office contesting NASA's decision to use SpaceX on their next trip to the moon.

As a reminder, SpaceX is run by Elon Musk, who also runs Tesla and Boring, etc. Last week, NASA awarded a contract to the company for $2.9 billion to land astronauts on the moon by 2024.

The goal is to have a moon base where they take off and do other things in the end.

In a petition, Blue Origin said NASA has executed a flawed acquisition for a human landing system program and moved the goalposts at the last minute.

Their decision to eliminate opportunities for competition significantly narrows. The supply base, not only delays, but also endangers America's return to the moon.

So then there was a Twitter feud. Elon Musk tweeted, besides the fact that he called himself the Doge Father,

he tweeted, can't get it up to orbit, LOL.

Those are fighting words in the land of midlife crises. Oh, God.
Anyway,

so does

Blue Origin have a point here? Is really Jeff Bezos Bruised ego? He loses out to Elon on a lot of these things. Elon's way ahead in the whole space business.

And Jeff, it feels like a hobby. But what do you think?

Well, I mean, didn't we just hear about Jeff complaining somewhere else saying not fair? Yeah, not fair. I don't know.
I probably, if I were on the board of Amazon, which will never happen.

Never happen. If I were on the board, I'd say, Jeff, let's pick one or the other.
We're either going to go out. He's leaving.
He's leaving. So he'll be like, go fish.

No, what I mean is if we're going to complain and cry foul, I would do it once, not twice, because as soon as you hear he's also crying foul at NASA, in addition to the CIS decision around Jedi, it begins to feel like a pattern and this guy is just can't take an L.

You know, it's like, so I, I, and, but by the way, I also read and go, I think that Trump was calling these obsequious weirdos, incompetent people that he put in charge of very important

very important organizations and saying, hey, I think we should pick so-and-so. And unless they said yes, he was going to start insulting them and fire them.
And I wouldn't be surprised if there was.

I mean, there's politics in it. To think that these are apolitical decisions is probably naive.

But there's probably,

I don't doubt there's some credibility and legitimacy to these complaints.

Although I think SpaceX and everything I've read has beat out Boeing, that SpaceX really does a better job and has fantastic engineers. But

I think there's a bad look. I would have picked one or the other, not both.
There's a pattern here, and it's not a good look that there's constantly complaining.

Well, this is his next business, though. He's really going to devote a lot of attention to it.
So I think he's not going to back off on that. He wants to get these contracts.

He's going to have to put up the dough and get going on the innovation if he really wants to.

I think Elon has spent years really ingratiating himself, I don't mean that in a negative way, with this business, with these bits, with doing the rocket launches and doing all things.

And he's going to get competition, just like with everything else. This is very expensive competition.

You know, he's also in, you know, Lockheed's not happy. The rest of, you know, probably all the other.

other ones that are involved and I don't know all their names, but you know, Jeff is, it looks like Jeff really seriously wants to make Blue Origin more than just, I want to live in a space colony floating in the sky kind of thing.

And

that's what the issue is, I think. It's interesting.

I've always said, all right, the biggest business in the world

that Amazon has to go into is healthcare. And the thing I've totally missed, and it just isn't.
I've got to separate this from Amazon. This is Jeff Bezos, Blue Origin, but go ahead.

Is there a separation anyway?

Other than shareholder and legal entity? Anyway,

the biggest business in the world, and it just kind of dawned on me that these companies are now,

you know, big tech is now a big player here, not Northrop Grumman and Lockheed,

is government. And it's just interesting that both of these are really about multi-billion dollar contracts from government.
Sure.

There's a very frightening thing here, and that is.

You know, government, the separation between government and private enterprise, it just is all feeling way too close. Well, it's been a lot of time.
Too many lobbyists.

It feels really uncomfortable. It's just obvious because these are famous people as opposed to the people who ran Lockheed or General Dynamics.
That's good point. You didn't know them.

I did make that point about government 10 minutes ago. Nonetheless, nonetheless.
Where am I? You're just repeating what a lady said.

Jesus Christ.

More thinly veiled.

Here I am, another aggrieved white male telling people they can't express their politics at work. My white capitalist, whatever it is.

Oh, God. Oh, you shouldn't have, you gotta be sharper with me than today, but you're not because Joanna, see, that was our plot is to get you unsharp.
Well, it works. It works.
It works.

But here's the situation: is that it's become, one, it's become because it's these personalities that are doing this.

Two, it's that the government, I think, has an opportunity here to play them off each other all the time because that's how they're like. They love to tweet at each other.

I think the government can advantage government here by,

you know, here's, let them spend all their money. Let them do, let them pursue these dreams of rocketry that they've had since boyhood and now they have the money and means to do it.

And I think it's probably good for the government to have all these players sort of buying to build a moon base or whatever it is because

the government's got to have partners in these things. They're way too expensive.
And NASA, I think, is being very clever sidling up to that. 100%.

But we'll see which one prevails. I think Bezos, it'll be interesting to see when Bezos is only doing this, right? This is his only job, essentially, where he's really focusing in on it.

And he's so aggressive that maybe Elon better stop with the silly tweets because I think Jeff doesn't tweet. He just kills.

But it also reflects in a weird way this, I think, an uncomfortable trend where the greatest concentration of IQ used to be working for our nations. And that is

probably the greatest concentration of IQ at one point was the Nazi rocket program. And then we took the smartest Nazis.
We got better Nazis than the Russians did.

And then they ended up working at NASA. And the greatest concentration of IQ ever assembled used to be the Manhattan Project.
Then it was NASA. Then it was Lawrence Livermore Labs.

Now by far the greatest concentration of IQ is at Amazon and at Google and possibly Microsoft. And it's just too bad.
Something that's nicer, hopefully, that we're reversing or the trend is reversing.

A lot of very impressive young human capital is deciding to go into government or go to get their master's in epidemiology.

But it used to be that the best and brightest went to work for the government. And now that's no longer the case.
It's a lot of money. It's a lot of money.
Agreed. A lot of money.
I don't know.

It'll be interesting to see these tech tech personality feuds, Bezos versus Musk, Cook versus Zuckerberg, et cetera, et cetera, go on. I think there's going to be a lot more of that.

And that's how we see it. It's reductive, and yet it's actually true at the same time.
Well, look, Zuckerberg doesn't like Tim Cook because he's a scold. And I think

Cook

doesn't like Zuckerberg because he's an awful person.

He's an awful person, Kara.

And the Bezos Musk thing. I just think Musk is very smart, but Bezos is, I don't know if I would poke that.
Bezos is very disciplined, but the problem is Musk, here's the thing.

If you ever see anybody that garners a disproportionate amount of influence socially in a short amount of time, it's because they have leveraged an emerging medium.

And Musk's kind of, you know, whether it's AOC or Musk or even Trump, Musk's ability to kind of capture a moment in a five, not even five-word, but five-letter tweet. He does.
He is kind of fear.

I mean, he's the most fear. Do you know what you have to do if you're Mary Barra and you're the C of GM to actually put out a tweet?

Do you know how many people touch and massage and mangle that thing? Yep. And the lawyers that got to see it and the PR consultants and say, well, what does this say about Mary Barra?

And is this reinforcing

our commitment to climate change? Yet, I mean, and he just, you know, he just puts down the blunt and starts tweeting. I know.
You know what? Look at Dogecoin. Dogecoin.
I'm Dogecoin. Oh my gosh.

I mean, now it's up like crazy. It's like, it's insane.
And, you know, you know, there's going to be Doge, Doge skits on Saturday Night Live on May 8th. So, I mean, he just, he can.

You're stealing my thunder around my prediction. Oh, okay.
I won't say anything. All right.
Okay. All right.
Okay. All right.
Let's go on to listener mail then. Roll the tape.

You've got, you've got, I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman. You've got mail.

Hi, guys. This question is 50-50 for Scott and Kara.
about a tech company that you guys don't really talk much about.

Bumble. CEO, Whitney Wolf, was an exec exec over at Tender.
She didn't like the boys club over there and said, I can do this better. And she did.

She launched essentially a female first product and they went public last month, going toe-to-toe versus the Titan and industry match group.

Current valuation is $7 billion on about $600 million in revenue. I've heard arguments that there's several new service lines these guys could launch.

They could do partnerships with bookings or venues, live events, maybe matchmaking.

But really, all these entail some considerable risk or downside for the brand if they get it wrong. What do you guys think of the whole industry, the valuations, and where these companies are headed?

Thanks. Wow.
We don't talk. That's a great question.
We don't talk about dating. This company went public really

interestingly and did rather well. And, you know,

we're the matchmaking and the other matchmaking company, Match Occompany, is run by a woman also right now.

It's a really interesting time for the dating. area, which has consolidated sort of.
And then she has this offering.

I think it's a really interesting area for a lot of uh innovation the big players like facebook have tried it i don't think i don't even what happened in their dating service do you hear anything about it or

uh the only my only exposure to it is my friend is recently divorced and i'm having so much fun i wrote his write his profile and he gets he shares with me what's going on yeah the the thing i think that's fascinating about or what i take from dating and this is sort of not doesn't directly answer his question but

If you look at the digitization or innovation, when a sector gets digitized and it attracts cheap capital and the capital goes to a small number of players, somebody identifies themselves through innovation and execution as the leader.

They attract more and more cheap capital. They can reinvest.
And two or three, if not one or two, players just pull away and there's a concentration of power.

There is the same concentration of power or a winner-take-most effect taking place in mating and vis-a-vis dating apps, because now I think it's going to be about one in three, probably marriages are going to start on dating apps.

It's incredible how much this has permeated society. And it's actually kind of dangerous because Tinder put out some data showing that if there's

50 women on Tinder and 50 men on Tinder, four men get the attention of 46 of the women.

And so the other 46 men are trying to buy for the attention of four men.

There's actually, if you do a Gini coefficient, the mating inequality, and that is the concentration of interest or spoils, if you will, will, or resources or attention, if that's the resource resource or swiping right on dating apps, there's actually greater inequality in mating on dating apps than there is income inequality.

So, if you're worried about income inequality, what happens when you kind of create this incredible skew towards a few people? So, for example, some very unusual things.

Your zip code, and all these things are geotagged, where you live is a big factor.

And if people swipe left or right, especially with men, because if men signal resources, they garner much more interest. Interesting.

And women, it's based based much more, much more on their, quite frankly, on their looks. And so these, these, when you have access to everything and everyone has access to everyone else,

the perceived top 1%,

you start ending up with the same type of inequality and concentration. I'm fascinated.
You know a lot about the dating market. Well, no, you know what I'm fascinated by?

I wrote an article called The Virgin Homicides, and I am just absolutely, and I'm just blown away by this one stat, and we've said it before, and I'll say it again.

In 2008, the number of young men under the age of 30 who had never had sex, and people immediately focus on the word sex, so let's just talk it, let's just assume it's a component of establishing a relationship and connecting to somebody.

I will.

It was 8%.

And do you know what it is now, just 13 years later? It's 27%.

That's a lot. And so when young men aren't attaching to work because

they're

greater unemployment, lower levels of graduating from college, when they're not attaching to school, they're not graduating at the same rates as women, and they're not attaching to relationships, you have the most dangerous person in the world is a broke, angry, and alone young man.

It's true. God.
If you look at the most unstable,

if you look at the most unstable, violent nations in the world,

it's a lot of young men that have no opportunity to get away from the world. And then you get mad that I'm saying that these companies run by older white men are aggrieved slightly.

All All right, listen. I think you're 100% right, but let's get back to his question.
Okay, sorry.

What is there if they try to do other things and to build revenue, because they're going to have to. They can't just be dating.

What do you think

these valuations of these things? I think these are big opportunities. I do.
It's huge. And this is what's going to happen.
It's going to attract other companies.

My prediction, or one of my predictions, you know who I think is going to be one of the most successful dating app companies in the world in 12 months? Not match.com, but go ahead.

Peloton. Peloton.
Oh, Peloton has a community of like-minded, young, successful, and fit, i.e. hot people.

And they're already experimenting with a Facebook page. Their Facebook page is off the charts in terms of engagement.
And you're going to start seeing running clubs.

And it's like, and it's going to be, it's going to be like those dumb softball leagues we have here in Manhattan, which is basically trying to pretend I'm not dating. Were you on one?

I never did that. You never did.
But that's just thinly veiled match. Oh, okay.
That's thinly veiled tender. Scott, I always knock an insight out of you.

I got to say, I pull you back from the verge of suicide. It's you.
And then that's really interesting. So, John, this is interesting.

I think the big ones like Facebook just are going about it the wrong way. Nobody wants to date on Facebook.
Like, it's just, they should create a brand. We don't even know it's them kind of thing.

But Whitney Wolf is, we should have Whitney Wolfe on. She's the youngest woman to take a company public.
She's the youngest female billionaire, right? Yes, we should talk to her.

I know her a little bit when she got screwed over at Tinder, which was interesting. That said, I do think some of the brands, I think, match is way ahead in lots of ways.

And Tinder is still a very powerful brand. Barry Diller.

Barry Diller.

And it's very innovative. I think, you know, my son is using Tinder for the first time.
Oh, he's going to hate you for that one.

Not the younger one. Of course not.
He's not allowed. No, the older one.
No, the older one doesn't care. He thinks it's fascinating.
Tinder for giants.

He is not using Tinder. The other one is.
And it's, of course, because

sons and I close talk because we're healthy. We have a healthy relationship.
He has all that hair and that cooking thing. That just solves itself.
I know. That's a lot of stuff.
I know.

That's a lot of stuff. He has cooking in his bro, I'll cook for you kind of thing, and he looks good.
Yeah, yeah.

He's doing it. It's interesting.
He did get matched with a rather older woman.

And I was like...

Oh, how did mommy feel about that? Shut up. Don't talk to me.
Don't. We're not going down that road.
Trouble at the Swiss household.

You know, when he's just four more years, he could do whatever he wants, but he's a little too young to be going out with someone significant. I know exactly what he said.

You so much as look at that woman, and I'm going to have your younger brother kick your ass.

No, I think it's interesting that he was using it. He did it apropos of nothing.
He's like,

I was like, oh, okay. Like, he's also,

he dates from people he meets in classes and things like that, but it's also that. So, and he likes it.
He likes it. I'm just saying.
It's a very strong brand. I do think there is.

I think the universe, I know. I introduced him to Bumble.
I told him you should try Bumble. I just have more faith in the universe knowing there's a cougar going after your son.
I just, I love that.

That has made my morning. That has made my morning.
From the Vox Media Podcast Network, it's Cougar Town.

What does Pre-Barara think of your son dating older women?

Oh my God. In any case, he's using it.
I'm trying to get back to points. Fossey makes Louis.
Listen, listen. He's doing it, meeting people in a lot of ways, but it's interesting.

I'm watching him is interesting. And I'm going to, I wanted to talk to him about Bumble to see which ones he likes.
It's interesting.

We should bring him on to talk about it. We should.
We're going to. We will do that.

We will do that.

That will happen because, and that'll drive Jeff Switcher crazy. Anyway, okay.
We'll have all the Switchers all over your life, Scott. You've now joined the Switchers.
Switch your town.

My mom sat in your house and said you might be gay. Lucky.
Lucky, who kept saying like over and over.

So I thought you were gay. I see that.
And I'd be like, oh, we'd all laugh uncomfortably. And then we'd say, so you drew down from Veryl Beach.

And she'd go, literally, she'd go, yeah, it took us about an hour. I thought you were gay.

And then she called your wife a model. She called your wife a model.

That was nice. That's the story of our life.

Story of our life. You're a model, aren't you? I still think he's gay.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. He's gay.
That's his wife. Oh, my God.

No. We forgot that part.
My mom.

He met my mom. He's met her before, but nonetheless, she was in fine form, as they say, sitting in his room.
She looked great. You got to give it to her.
She looked great. She's a good-looking woman.

Anyway.

You know what's the scariest moment I've had in a while what this woman comes in you know starts you know barking things at everybody yeah your mom's not a young lady and

and

anyways i'm like oh this she's so adorable and she's so little and old and likable um i mean she looks great for her age just in case she listens to this and then what do we do we put her in a rental car and send her to the highways of florida i'm like that woman has a driver's i cannot stop her i've tried i've tried driver's i've tried i have i i'm going to have to do something about it at some point but it i have tried i that's florida for you welcome to that but then again you brought me to a drum boat rally anyway scott one more quick break and and by the way scott if you are gay there's nothing wrong with that 100 it's not too late one more quick break not too late back for predictions

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Okay, Scott, you predicted Elon Musk was going to do a Dogecoin sketch on SNL, and he's already tweeting about it. What else do you have? That was really good.
Dogefox.

I'm just kind of blown away by this. I don't know if you saw Tesla's earnings, but it did, I think it did 93 cents of earnings per share.
But 25 of that. Okay,

it was supposed to, analysts estimated it was going to

do somewhere in the 70s. Yeah.
And if you miss earnings, the stock goes way down. And if you beat earnings, the stock typically goes up.
You beat expectations, stock goes up.

You miss expectations, it go down.

The actual part of the company that builds cars or batteries or solar or whatever did 68 cents. Yeah.
But the company reported 93 cents. You know what made up the delta? Doge.

Profits from selling Bitcoin. Bitcoin.

So we now have a company that is beating earnings based on its ability to trade in a currency asset equity, which, quite frankly, the CEO has tremendous influence over. So imagine the following.

This could be an SEC problem. Go ahead.
Imagine the following.

You're the CEO of a company and you're not going to make earnings and you can put out a tweet that sends the value of a stock or an asset that you have had your company buy soaring.

You then sell that inflated currency and juice your earnings and then wash, rinse, and repeat.

It just, there is something very uncomfortable about, and the beautiful thing about the markets, at least to date, is that no one person can control them.

And we are getting to a point now where one person can control the markets. And now,

and now he can make up his earnings by doing a tweet saying, Bitcoin's at $60,000. And if Bitcoin goes up, they sell their Bitcoin.
Then when it goes down, he might buy some more in a few more tweets.

And you're going to see, I think the SNL is going to be

in a congressional hearing. Wow.
And that is, I think they're going to. I love this prediction.
They're going to do a skit on Dogecoin.

Dogecoin's is going to become increasingly volatile around when SNL plays because the unique thing about crypto is it trades 24 by 7 versus stocks which only trade in market hours. Wow.

And I think watch that carefully. That's what we're talking about.
Well,

the House and Senate committees and the SEC are all going to freak out when they realize we now have one individual who can not only manipulate the markets or, I don't know, pump the markets.

I don't want to use the word manipulate because it's really not anything different than any other hedge fund manager tries to do.

But now it's starting, he's using it as a cushion or a shock absorber for his earnings.

We're in uncharted territory. Elon Musk has always taken people to uncharted territories.
I'll tell you that. SNL, Doja Coin, Musk, and congressional hearings.

Has there been a character like him in history? Is it like, who has been? That's a really interesting point. Is it P.T.
Barnum? What is it?

Well, P.T. Barnum,

people don't give the credit, the genius, and I learned all of this from Hugh Jackman, that movie about P.T. Barnum.

You know, the guy that pt barnum is considered just a carnival barker but he was also a genius and and marketing you know very creative and very interesting product right like i don't know i'm i'm trying to think who the equivalent of well there's a little pt barnum in there howard hughes there's all kinds of people yeah howard hughes i'm i'm a i i think howard hughes is a really interesting character i don't know what do you you're i don't know i'm trying to sort of i like i'm thinking about this fan base i'm thinking of doing a column on fans like how this fan thing and he is the ultimate fan haver and he does use it to manipulate i was thinking about that like watching look at those earnings and watching how a lot of it was this coin but then he was talking about it like what do you do if you're the sec and that's happening yeah but i mean it's not and people won't like this analogy but the closest

the closest metaphor or analog to elon musk in terms of his fearlessness and quite frankly his his creative his willingness to innovate appropriate and have this religious like following is trump yeah um yeah But and also leveraging a medium.

But the thing, the thing that you

make nearly as much money.

Well, and the thing that's fascinating about Elon Musk is he's clearly a brilliant engineer and an incredible visionary.

And I mean, this fearlessness and I don't know, that part of his brain that doesn't put up filters

basically brings down filters to, oh, you can't do that. And he thinks, well, no, I can land two rockets on two barges concurrently.

He's also, when you interview him, like, he will get mad at you and threaten to leave. And he's, nobody does that.
He's so id. He's like an id.
Really? Interviewing him is like an id.

And then you sort of calm him down. And then he says, you know, he stays, which is interesting.
But I wouldn't be surprised if he walked off and interviewed mine at some point. But

I don't even mind because I sort of expect it, which is interesting. Everyone else tries to be polite.
I heard him and Louis Swisher are dating. I just, I heard it.
I heard it here. Stop.

Anyway, we'll see what happens. This is a great prediction.
You know, I made a little prediction.

Aren't you gay?

Wait, what? I like how you bring that together.

This is a nice home. It feels like someone gay did it.

Okay, Lucky. Get in your compact car and head back to Vero Beach.

Jesus.

We'll stay off the road. Anyway, I did a prediction.
I said, even if California Governor Gavin is a little bit of a girl, you marry a model. Don't you have sex with other men?

Thank you, Swisher family.

And you're like, you don't even spend any time with her. You're like, I don't want to deal with her.
You just roam around on FaceTime calls, barking orders at people.

And she's there with her sister. And I'm like, how did I end up here?

How did I end up here?

27 minutes. You could have handled it.
I'll deal with your dad any day of the week and twice on Sunday. You bring your dad to me and we will have a good time.
We'll drink a little whiskey.

We'll laugh. I'll find out what actually happened to you when you were a young person.
Anyway, Anyway, nonetheless, I'm willing to.

He wasn't there for much of that. He's willing to host any gabbling you want to bring together.
Oh, I heard he makes a lot of money now, so I love him to death.

That's probably true. Anyway, I'm going to finish with my prediction.

Even if California Governor Gavin Newsom faces a vote of no confidence, he is, quote, not going to lose no matter how many tech dudes and GOP are trying to take advantage of it. 100%.

Say more. Say more.
I'm just saying he's on the upswing. Things are going better in California.

You know, he may have that little bit of a problem with going to the restaurant, but that's all over. I think he's going to do just fine.
What's, I mean, what's with that?

This has been a tough time for every state. I think that's a good thing.
I think people are very forgiving of him.

Well, not only that, but what's with this movement and all these, all these people, all these moths, talk about carnival barkers that don't have any actual solutions. There's a lot of people.

Caitlin Jenner's running, you know, which is interesting. But, you know, this happened before, like when.
when when Arnold Schwarzenegger became governor.

But nonetheless, I think he is not, I think he's not going anywhere. He's very popular.
Nobody wants him out. All the polls are showing that way.
So he's got to really screw up over the summer.

But it did qualify. So we'll see what happens.
Anything can happen because now it can happen. But I think he's

going to be stronger than ever. Gavin Newsome is not Gray Davis.
Yeah.

He's too tall and handsome to recall.

Anyway,

I think he was always had a real, much more tense relationship with the tech people than you realize. Even then, he was a politician.
Who I interviewed yesterday on Prop G. Who? Senator Al Franken.

Ooh, how'd that go?

You know,

I think Senator Franken deployed what is a weapon that is not utilized in politics

that is just so ripe, and that is humor. He's very funny.

You could tell he's really

scarred, upset, deeply hurt by what happened to him.

And also, he said that he would consider running again. So I'm interested to see if that happens.
He should.

I think he'd be re-elected, wouldn't he? I do too. Yeah.
I think people, forgive and forget. Just like I said with Newsom.
Forget. Those are kind of things.

Now, on the other hand, Cuomo, I thought, would get over it. This new report the New York Times has about how much they tried to kill old people.
Just not going. Oh, yeah.
This is bad.

This is like, if he wins again, it's like gross. This is so funny.
Look at what's happened in terms of public perception of the governors of New York and Florida. Yeah.
Yeah.

It's just incredible how much they've flipped. I think Ant DeSantis is overplaying his hand, though.
That's my feeling. Talking about Florida, everything.
He's overstating it much too early.

Much too early. Yeah, I think you're a little biased there.
No, I'm not. I think he is.
I think he's over-bragging himself, trying to like knock out Nikki Haley, et cetera.

I think he's got a problem if he does that.

That's the problem with some people. They overstate their qualities much too early.
Anyway, Scott, I got to go.

Another jam-packed weekend I have, and I'm going to be down there, of course. I'll be down.
Well, I'm really excited to come down there. What will you do actually without the Swishers this weekend?

Are you going to be okay? I'm going to Tulum this weekend with a bunch of my old. Oh my God.
Yeah. Can I come? Can I bring the swishers? How about Jeff? Oh, 100% no.
100% no.

There's so many swishers. You haven't met David.
Hold on. Lucky's coming with us and a strange 50-year-old who claims she's dating a young man with good hair at NYU.

40. That literally made my day.

That made my day. I'm so glad you're here.
I'm so encouraging that relationship. I am so.
We're bringing on Louis Swishes.

We're bringing him on. He's a very funny.
He's a wonderful boy. I love that guy.
Do you know what he asked me this week? He wants to get a tattoo.

Can I date your friends? No.

No. Sorry, go ahead.
Listen, he has a tattoo of San Francisco. I have tattoos.
He wanted to get one since he was a kid, and he has one. We turned 18.
I said it was okay.

He said, I want to get another tattoo. And he came up with this new tattoo parlor.
And I said, oh, that's cool. And he goes, will you come with me? And I said, sure.
Like, okay.

But then he's like, no, I want you to get a tattoo with me at the same time.

Interesting. I've told my kids I'll buy them a car if they have just three rules.

Okay. No motorcycles, no military.
I think military service is a wonderful thing. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.
Yeah. And no tattoos.
Oh, well, we're at the complete opposite.

No motorcycles, we agree on. Nonetheless, Louis and I are going to go get tattoos this summer.
Yeah, great. I love that.

That sounds like the worst reality TV show ever invented. I just hate that.
My kids just

love hanging with their mama. They do love hanging with mama.
Anyway. They do love hanging.
Yeah, anyway. And then we'll take Clara for a tattoo, obviously, at some point.

don't even say that.

That is the most perfect physical being in the world.

And by the way, stop her from growing up. Literally, just keep that where it is.
She's so funny. She's so funny.
Every morning she wakes up and every day is a new adventure.

That's really pretty much Clara's life. Anyway, I've got to go.
Don't forget if you have a story in the news, you want to hear our opinion or submit your questions to nymag.com/slash pivot.

And just be clear, Scott is not gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sinanis. Ernie Intertot engineered this episode.

Thanks also to Hannah Rose and Andrew Burroughs. Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts.
Or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.

If you like the show, please recommend it to a friend. Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media.
We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech in business.

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