Apple vs. Epic battle escalates, GOP’s Section 230 legislation, and a listener question on Chipotle conscious consumerism

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Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, and I'm Kara Swisher.

And you sure are, Kara.

This is Scott Galloway.

The Costello to your Abbott, the

Regis to your Kathy Lee.

No, you're Kathy Lee.

I don't know what you're saying.

In what universe would you not be Kathy Lee and you not be Costello?

But let's not go into it.

I'm so Maurice Gibb in this stand-alive relationship.

No one knows that.

None of the young people know that reference.

Let's try to make more, more, more.

You know, they wrote the Bee Gees wrote when they were shunned from the world for Disco.

They wrote all the songs for Kenny Rogers, actually very talented people.

I met

Maurice's son in Miami.

I don't know how we're talking about the Bee Gees, but keep going.

It's always appropriate to talk about the Bee Gees.

It's never appropriate.

I happen to like the Bee Gees, but not many people do anymore.

That was in the last century, kids.

So in case you want to have a reference, you might enjoy the Saturday Fever soundtrack.

It was a very good movie, too, actually.

But let's go on to more contemporary issues of trouble.

The Woodward interview with Trump.

Oh, my God.

What do you think?

As a fellow journalist, what did you think?

There was an interesting story in the post about whether he should have said something Woodward should have said when Trump, you know, here's what I, here's what I came with.

We can debate that in a second.

Trump sounds very intelligent on those, on those tapes, right?

He knows what he knows the science.

He understands it.

He's not this.

oaf, this sort of like person of the people oaf.

He's a New York sophisticated elite and he understands the repercussions.

He understands the problem.

He's appropriately concerned.

His stuff around Kim Jong is all about his ego, ego, but

that was what's really struck me.

So therefore, I'm like, you're even worse a person.

You know the problem and you absolutely mendacious, you're a mendacious liar.

With,

you know, he lied and people died.

That's what a lot of people are saying.

And I agree.

Like, this is really, I don't know if it'll do anything to hurt him, but boy, what an astonishing

thing to do.

What do you think?

Yeah, if he'd said,

if he'd said, look, we need to play it down to keep America calm, but at the same time, we need to behind the scenes rally the troops and all resources and the full force, credit, and horsepower of the federal government to attack this, I think he would have come off looking good.

Instead, it was like, let's just downplay it.

It just.

Yeah.

The word downplay is not a good word.

And then what feels cooked to me, but in a very...

strategic and thoughtful way is it feels to me like I don't call I don't know it's a lamestream media but essentially if you look at the last two weeks and a lot of the controversy around the story was that it was delayed, is that they are every week hitting him with something and putting him on his heels.

Right.

And I'd be shocked if in about somewhere the middle or end of next week, just as this story is starting to lose its oxygen, something else comes out from another credible journalist.

I think they're just going to hit him every week.

And I wouldn't be surprised if we find out post-election that they were coordinating.

Oh, no.

Come on.

That's ridiculous.

I've never coordinated with another or media organization.

That's insane.

That they're not going to be able to do that.

You don't think that's happening.

No, no.

Thank you, Mr.

MAGA.

Like, that's what they, that is like a theme.

There's nothing wrong with that.

We don't coordinate.

There's no speaking.

In fact, there's a lot of competition inside newspapers.

Isn't holding the story until 60 days before the election coordination?

There was a really good Margaret Sullivan column about this, and I agree that it's definitely worth the discussion.

He's a book author.

He's not a day-to-day reporter at the Washington Post.

And so I don't know.

Like, as a person, I couldn't have kept that to myself, right?

Ethically speaking, as like, if I knew the president knew about this and lied about it, I would have put it out right away.

Like, I don't think I could have, I would have been like, wait a minute.

He said something that's very pertinent because people can die because of his

PR strategy, essentially.

And so I would have said it.

He's a, he's a book artist.

He keeps all his stuff.

You know what I mean?

I think what's more interesting is his sources.

You can tell who his sources are by listening to it, right?

Like it's obviously, yeah, because all the generals are sort of described as hard but soft you know what i mean like their backs are always ramrods right woodmore is a former military person he obviously has a great regard for the military so it's clear it's all the whole bunch of them you know that are that are sort of turning uh turning trump in and presenting the dangers of him what's interesting is that it's also comes with a michael cohen um book which i think is even more accurate about trump right you know even though he's what happens when a liar tells the truth like that's the problem like a persistent and pernicious and awful, you know, it sort of reminds me of the mob when they turn on each other, right?

So he's the lower guy, you know,

who turns on the boss.

That's really what's happening there.

And so I believe him a lot more.

And that was especially about racism and some of the other sort of cynicism.

And then I've been reading of all things Melanie and May, the Stephanie Walcott Wolf or whatever her name is,

which is also very, you know, truthful.

Like you like, this is, these are people who sort of decided they're going to go all in with people that were awful, and then they get kicked in the teeth by them.

And I don't reward them, I think it's awful that they're cashing in.

But at the same time, there's a sort of like sad, pathetic truth to these stories, and which is essentially a grifter mafia family.

What was the most surprising thing you read about in Melania and me?

That's a book I just can't.

I can't.

It's really well written.

Whoever the girl is could be the best in the world.

I just can't.

I'm too, I have too much male ego to be seen reading Melania and me.

Her persistent enthusiasm

of being on the inside, like, and then always getting like the wrong table.

Like, you know what I mean?

They always, they treat her like a servant and she is, and not realizing she's a servant to them.

Um, I think that's that feels like she's a friend when actually it's this sort of weird convenience for them.

To, you know, the sad emptiness of these people's lives, social lives, I think, is really sad.

Um, it definitely

describes a way of life in that New York scene that is very accurate, you know what I I mean?

It's super, and, and that she's, this woman's obviously not stupid.

She did the Met Ball.

She's one of these sort of strivy New York ladies who is in society, who's a little smarter than the rest of the society ladies.

And so

it's sad.

It's sad, empty lives of getting your hair done and your face fixed.

And you're, you know what I mean?

Like that, I don't feel sad for Melania Trump, but, and also that Melania Trump is obviously much smarter than any of us give her credit for.

You know what what I mean?

Like her, her calculation is so,

and protection of herself and her son is really interesting.

Anyway, that's, and the Michael Cohen one, which I'm sort of leafing through,

you know, just he's a muff.

It's like I'm reading the, you know, John Gotti's the guy who turned on John Gotti, whatever that guy's name was.

And it's completely accurate.

He, you know, it's completely, I mean, even though what happens when a liar lies?

And then, and this one, the Woodward one, obviously has the gravitas of Woodward, which he carries with him.

I think what was sad about that is Trump thought he could sort of beat Woodward at his own game.

And then they all turned, they're turning on Lindsey Graham now.

I guess Tucker Carlson outed Lindsey Graham as the person who pushed Trump to do it.

And

when you say outed in Lindsey Graham, I expect somebody.

I'm not talking about that.

I have no idea if the man is gay or not.

Oh, I'll believe that.

And it doesn't matter.

Like, outing in any form is wrong.

So,

so anyway, so it's just the whole thing.

Yeah, you're right, but it does give Biden five more days every time, correct?

So he can't really mount his other parts.

Look, I got to give it to the Biden people.

I think they are strategically, I think they basically, I don't know if it was Obama or Hillary said, okay, here's the A-team.

Here's your head of strategy.

Here's your head of communications.

And we're going to hit them every week or every nine days on a cycle with the following.

And this is how we're going to, you know, these are the things we're going to go.

I think they've so far run a really strategic thoughtful campaign and even the stories around i don't know if you saw in the latest news cycle they were obviously pumping the stories that his fundraising is seriously lagging trumps yeah and that indicates that's a quality key right it indicates that okay that the campaign is not going well and america america does to a certain extent vote with money And it's an indicator.

It's a lagging indicator of how the campaign is going.

Yeah, we'll see.

We'll see what stops the employee.

I just think he constantly bites when people attack him, which is really a good thing for the Biden camping.

And there's no strategy there.

And therefore, they're just constantly putting out fires, which he likes.

That's actually his preferred way of behaving.

Let's go to another story.

Speaking of Trump, TikTok, it has this looming deadline of September 15th.

As nothing's happened, I was talking to all the principals this weekend.

I sort of pinged them.

And they're all like.

I don't know.

Like, I don't know.

They're waiting for Byte Dance to decide.

I think, as you've said, Byte Dance is sort of running out the clock, hoping that something will happen along with the lawsuits.

So I think we're right about this, Scott.

I think we're correct.

Yeah,

I'm trying to think.

I think the only people who are wasting more of their lives than the bankers working on this are the people who still commute down the 280 to go to work on Facebook's Libra coin.

I'm trying to imagine.

Remember LibraCoin?

Go ahead.

I hope some people are listening on their commute.

I just want you to know that when your grandkids asked you what you were doing in the summer of 2020, you should say absolutely nothing.

Those are moments and efforts and history and months that I will never get back.

And then I got transferred to the portal team such that I could have a millimeter of relevance in this world.

I mean, the Facebook portal product.

There's all these really interesting

different biases or cognitive biases.

I tweeted it.

I thought it was a genius and I'll find out who put it out.

And I'm guilty of about 80% of them.

But when I would bet that when the top bankers and the CEOs of Microsoft and Oracle, somebody approaches them about buying TikTok, because they're involved, they think that it's going to happen.

And I think Xi Shinpeng has absolutely no problem wasting their time.

I think, you know, if you and I or somebody has an idea for a company for Microsoft to buy and you call Satcha Nadella, you're like, you immediately think, do not waste this guy's time.

If he gets a call, he assumes anyone on the other line is serious about selling that asset.

I think the Chinese premiere is like, yeah, I don't mind wasting no time.

Tell them we're serious.

They're waiting the whole thing out.

But again, two weeks ago, two weeks ago, they leaked that, oh, maybe in the next 24, as early as the next 24 hours,

there is this date where the acquirer will be announced.

We'll see.

Wasn't it extended by a quarter?

Didn't they get a delay?

We'll find out.

We'll find out.

Anyway, speaking of a related thing is that these companies aren't as rich as they were.

SoftBank reportedly, the NASDAQ whale, Masasan is the NASDAQ whale, the company lost $12 billion in big tech bets.

They would look like they were the ones pushing up these stocks, not just us.

It was SoftBank and others.

What do you assess it very quickly?

We've got to get to the big story, but what do you make of this NASDAQ whale situation?

Well, first off, when we talk about the NASDAQ pullback, it's pulled back to where it was about two and a half weeks ago.

I mean, it's not everyone, the media loves to say, oh, Tesla off 10%.

So what?

Tesla's up 280% year to date.

So the pullback is all, you know, it's all relative.

The most fascinating thing about SoftBank being the NASDAQ well, and that is they purchased $4 billion in options, kind of notional value or control of $30 to $50 billion

of stock is not that the size of it or that they're controlling the market, because they're actually, the real analysis shows they were less than 10% of options volume.

It's that it might be an indicator of one of the most dangerous smells that we really haven't, that hasn't been this stifling since 99, and that is hubris.

And that is imagine...

What is hubris?

Imagine John Lejard.

Well, it smells like a guy who made the most successful investment in the history of the private markets, who put 20 million into Alibaba and he got 100 billion back, believing that his corporation that is a telco, is now in the business of trading options.

So

imagine if Gina Rometti at IBM, it came out out in an earnings call that she'd been playing the options market with $4 billion of IBM shareholders' money.

And the question is, the people, the shareholders, the shareholders of Santa Claus are probably thinking, boss, I can make options on my money.

He always does these kind of things.

Like the thing with the saudies.

There's a lesson here.

And that is if you're in your parents' basement and you took that stimulus check and you levered up and you bought a bunch of Amazon and you bought a bunch of Tesla when you got your stimulus check three months ago and you've turned $1,200 into $7,000, you need to realize it's not your fault.

And you need to be very careful starting to believe that you are good at this and you should start buying options.

This ends badly.

And you have it at one end of the spectrum with young men in their basement making really stupid financial moves that almost never work well in the long term.

And then on the very other end, you have supposedly the smartest guy in the room

taking capital and playing the options.

But he's always making screw-ups.

Look at, he's the WeWork guy.

He's the one that spent all the Saudi money.

I'm amazed the Saudis haven't like dropped him in the ocean, like taken him out and dropped him in the ocean.

He does this a lot.

This is not, this is something

that I'm talking about.

We're going to find out on his deathbed that he was an agent of the Central Intelligence Agency who was charged with repatriating two decades worth of oil wealth back to the United States.

Oh, God.

All right.

On that note, on that strange, I don't know if it's a music or not, but I'm going to stop you right there.

Season nine.

Okay.

All right.

We're going to move on to big stories.

All right.

Apple versus Epic Battle.

Epic being the Epic Games.

Battle is escalating.

Apple is counter-suing the Fortnite video game maker.

Apple argues that it's not just the custodian of its App Store, but it nurtures its service through regular software updates, new features, and advertising.

As a reminder, Epic is suing Apple for what it claims is monopolistic tactics of the App Store.

I mean, neither is backing down.

I had a little discussion with Epic recently.

And

what do you make of this?

What is the point of the countersuit here?

They obviously are confident.

You don't countersuit unless you're confident of something, or maybe you're not.

And what do you think about the brand?

Funny, I'm sitting here and I'm thinking about there's this great Gary Larson cartoon.

This is a huge digression, but just bear with me.

You know how that cartoon works, what you think your dog says.

Come here, Ginger, be a good girl.

And all Ginger hears is blah, blah, blah, Ginger.

The two things I have heard so far in this podcast, and I have trouble focusing on what you say after, are nurture.

I could use some nurturing right now and face, getting your face fixed.

You can get your face fixed.

So two things.

I'd like to be nurtured and I would like to have my face fixed.

Who fixes faces?

I'm not sure.

I'm only right around the corner from your house in New York.

You can get anyway.

I'm in Poca Raton, even worse, Delray Beach.

Okay, so back to Epic.

Look, Apple has said, all right,

the payments within, it's the payment system that basically tries to do an end run around their taxation of their monopoly on the rails that they're like, no, no, no, only we are allowed to do a payment system because that's how we control the ecosystem.

And Epic has come in and said, well, what if we sell other apps within our app and take 8% to 12% instead of 30 the first year and 20 the second year?

Isn't that competition?

And it's highlighting a really interesting issue.

And that is when you have a duopoly over the app economy and someone pops up and says, we're not willing to pay this tax any longer.

It highlights this duopoly problem.

And Apple is basically an app.

I don't think there is a better communicator.

As I think about it, the ultimate acrobatic move, sleight of hand, whatever you want to call it, in communications was Apple positioning itself as a worrier for privacy because it immediately depositioned Facebook and Google and there was nothing they could do about it.

They have gotten off their heels and said, no, we're not a duopoly.

We nurture companies and this is theft.

We nurture this ecosystem and you are stealing from us and other apps.

This single department store is saying we do the advertising, we clean the store, we make the shelves full is that a good argument do you think it's bad for their brand

well look i don't company store they're like the company store it what it highlights is just uh again what uh tim wu at columbia says when you have two players and they control and i would argue there's not even two players it for me it's not a choice if i lose my phone i'm not getting a galaxy i'm not getting android i'm getting iphone because i need to signal to other people that i have good genes and i'm a storyteller and that i have wealth And so really iOS has a monopoly on the global wealthy.

And then

if you are increasingly the fastest growing part or one of the fastest growing parts of our economy is the app economy.

And one company gets to, I mean, if you looked at every streaming video platform, every one of them from Quibi to Apple TV Plus to Hulu, they all care about pay between 4% and 12% of their revenues to Apple, even Netflix.

So the question is.

Well, they're being nurtured.

It's for nurturing.

That's right.

They're being nurtured.

Yeah.

Wipe the sweat off my forehead.

How many would you pay me to nurture you?

I'm just curious.

Oh, I pay you every week.

You're kidding.

Am I kidding?

We are the 79th most downloaded podcast in Moldovia.

The Moldovans love us.

I don't believe that.

We're 79 in Moldova.

We're also big in the U.S.

Is it a good move to do this?

Let me focus you on, and will you see other apps following this trend?

And we haven't even talked about Google, who's also,

Fortnite also was kicked up, the Google Play store, but they're focusing all their attentions on Apple.

So,

what is the brand impact of doing this?

And especially if other apps follow suit?

Yeah, I think Apple is handling this.

Apple has no choice but to push back hard because it's like if somebody, if there's, if there's a rebellion in a small town outside of Glasgow, Scotland, the king's got to go up there and kick the shit out of everyone and kill their goats and hang a bunch of people and send a message to the other

feet.

There must be goats killed?

I don't know.

Goats?

I don't know.

Do they have to do this?

this it's not

is it going to have any impact on their brand mr brand expert i need to understand

whenever you have the little guy epic and there's something kind of cool and youthful and epic positioning himself as a little guy saying that we are not afraid of the big guy and they kick the big guy in the nuts yeah it makes it's a brand enhancing move for epic and it makes apple look like what they are a monopoly so it's not a good look but apple has no choice but to try and basically shut down this rebellion because they do not want other fiefdoms starting to get all confident and saying, well, we're going to build our own payment system within our apps.

They have to send a strong signal.

They have to draw on quarter Epic here.

And that's what they're going to try and do.

It should end up.

Again, the App Store needs to be regulated.

It's just, I can understand the argument against breaking Apple up because Elegant Antitrust maintains stakeholder value and Apple has an amazing brand.

It's not obvious how you would break it up.

But the App Store needs to be regulated.

And if you look at the fastest growing parts of our economy, social,

tech, cloud, e-commerce, in the fastest growing parts of our economy, there's very little diversity in the ecosystem and startups.

What will we do?

There can't be another store,

or could these people do it on their own?

Then it's, you know, all hell breaks loose, right?

Well, if you regulate them, maybe you take down the prices, maybe allow payment systems, maybe you allow other apps or payment systems within certain apps.

And where's Google?

Google, where Google's sort of sitting quietly off to the side.

Yeah, they're just staying out of it.

They're just staying out of it.

But they'll be affected by this.

They'll be affected by this nonetheless.

All right.

So we think it's going to be good for the brand or bad.

I still haven't gotten an answer out of you.

Yeah.

Oh, no, it's bad for the brand.

Bad.

And if others join.

They have no choice.

And if others join.

Yeah, they have no choice but to

play hardball here and hit back hard.

And it's going to make them

look like the

incumbents or the, you know, the,

what's the

purchase of something like Peloton.

Did you see Peloton as a new bike coming out with a swivel screen and everything else?

Splashy.

Splashy.

Yeah, Peloton's almost become too expensive now.

Peloton's being valued at something like $30,000 per user.

And it's hard to imagine a user results in $30,000.

But anyway, we'll see.

Peloton.

Apple.

That's what you just mentioned.

They could do something over here.

We're doing something over here.

All right, Scott.

We're going to go to a quick break to talk about

the GOP introducing Section 230 legislation and a listener mail question, which is about Chipotle.

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And we're back.

Senate Republicans are introducing new legislation to amend Section 230.

as a reminder.

We talked about Section 230 a lot.

Legislation written in the 90s that says internet platforms do not have the same liabilities for content as publishers is to protect them and also allow them to do a lot of stuff we like.

The new online freedom and viewpoint diversity act, which is probably the worst name I've ever heard, introduced by three GOP senators, including Lindsey Graham.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, would narrow online companies' legal protections when they remove user-posted material.

Republicans have long accused Facebook, Twitter, and other social media platforms of abusing Section 230 to censor conservative views, which is so much cod swallow.

President Trump signed an executive order in May that requests government review of Section 230, also an empty thing that he did.

And the bill does not have any Democratic sponsors because it's stupid.

Go ahead.

What do you think, Scott?

Yeah, so I believe 230, if not.

We probably need something to take its place or it should be updated or it should be amended.

Who is the really intelligent guy we spoke to about this?

Who's kind of the 230 guru?

We had him on the podcast.

Oh, oh oh mike mike masnick mike masick there's a lot of people there's a guy there's a number of really smart people on this topic and they have lots of ideas yes and it just seems it feels like this should be a bipartisan commission put together with really thoughtful people with representation from old media new media and these firms to say all right how do we update this legislation or it but it's what's strange is they're both coming at it from different viewpoints republicans obviously think that there's a conservative bias and every piece of evidence doesn't really indicate that there is a conservative bias.

They never shut up.

That's my policy.

We need a policy of get them to shut up.

But go ahead.

But what's difficult to really ascertain is, and this is the danger of Facebook, is we don't really know what's going on.

Because while you can measure what are the most popular Facebook pages, you can't really measure the reach of certain types of content and you can't really measure the outcomes.

And because Facebook won't cooperate with academics around this.

So we don't really know what's going on.

The iceberg here isn't two-thirds below the surface.

The impact of Facebook is 98% below the surface, the surface being what we know about.

And that's what's so frightening about it.

And you just get the sense that the more we find out about the true impact of Facebook, the more we're going to kind of, the hair on our back is going to stand up, right?

But the notion that this legislation, you go in to try and fix the legislation to do away with some sort of conservative bias seems very strange.

So the Democrats, they haven't, as far as I can tell, they haven't proposed their legislation doesn't make a heck of a lot more sense.

It feels like nothing's going to happen here until after the election, and we need some sort of thoughtful, thoughtful, you know, I don't call it commission or group that

something thoughtful and like cooperative and bipartisan because we know how important it is.

I just don't think the Republicans will get off this

bandwidth to the Jim Jordan bandwagon.

They're so badly treated online, but literally, they don't shut up.

They've got lots of places to talk about things.

They're all over Twitter and Facebook and everything else.

The heaviest users, as Kevin Roos has written many times, of Facebook are Republican points of view, not even Republican, far to the, to the right of most Republicans, I think.

And so it won't go anywhere.

It's just a big show pony, really.

It's a show pony.

Show pony.

I get it.

Yeah.

The show pony.

It's a show.

What are they?

What are they?

The elephant.

It's a show elephant.

A shell of a show elephant.

A shell effect.

And, you know, and it just, and also, by the way, years ago, Lindsey Graham was talking to somebody out the internet, and I think I tweeted something like, Lindsey Graham doesn't know how to turn on his cell phone.

Like, these are people who

can turn me on with that full head of hair and that southern accent.

We don't talk about people like that.

The spicy little squirrel that's Southern Carolina.

Oh my God.

Have you seen Southern Charm, by the way?

Hope, no.

What's that?

Oh, it's really funny.

There's a woman on it who every day she has a butler and she's like, it's time for my medicine.

It's a really cute show.

Is it?

It's the only reality TV I watch.

What do you think?

Why do you do this?

You're always watching weird shows.

What do you, what do you, why?

Why?

Well, I gotta do something.

Why did you watch it?

I have to have my homie.

Southern Charm.

How did you, I don't find that charming.

It sounds horrible.

Oh, it's kind of cute.

I have absolutely no, I have very few relatives, period, much less anyone in the south.

Who do you have in the south?

My entire family's from West Virginia.

They are.

Oh, that's right.

They're cold people.

No, no, no.

That's my grandpa.

That's my other son of the family.

That's the Italians.

They are cold people.

The Italians are good.

The West Virginia people are not.

They are not.

They are quite

a grand.

He's a little bit, it looks like he's a little bit of trouble down there

in that.

Yeah,

I think they'll pull through.

That would be it.

I think they'll probably pull through.

It is interesting how many of them are in trouble, though.

It looks like they're in quite a lot of trouble, quite a lot of them from the numbers,

especially in Arizona and Maine.

Looks like Susan, we can't have Susan Collins to make fun of anymore.

Which will be a pleasure.

Which will be a pleasure.

All right, listener mail.

We're going to go to listener mail question for context, Scott.

This question was inspired by Chipotle.

Your favorite company has started a sustainable sustainable fashion brand made from recycling

sustainable fashion brand made from recycled materials let's listen to the tape you've got you've got can't believe I'm gonna be a mailman you've got mail

hey Scott and Kara this is Marley Finnegan from Chicago How can we as consumers push the fashion industry to better their practices to support environmental sustainability like Chipotle has been doing?

As Scott has mentioned previously, resale fashion is on pace to outsell fast fashion in the coming years, and we can only hope that the pandemic has continued to accelerate this trend.

Gen Z's biggest fear surrounds climate change, and they also make up over 40% of purchasing power.

When do you think big tech like Amazon will recognize the need to address socially conscious consumerism in order to continue sustained growth with this important group of consumers?

Thanks so much.

That is an incredible.

I did not know about the Chipotle brand.

I know.

Did you know about that?

No, I did not, but now we do.

So here's the deal.

This is a really interesting question because, as you have pointed out, a lot of, you know, clothing is really one of the biggest problems environmentally, like in terms of greenhouse gases, this and that.

We should probably just all be naked is probably one of the ways.

But what do you think about this?

I didn't have a real,

I don't know.

I wear the same clothes since high school.

So I feel good about my environmental sustainability fashion choices.

This is my son's.

The t-shirt I'm wearing right now is one of my son's when he was eight.

So I feel good.

But what do you think about this idea of making it a brand thing and it being important or trend things?

Well,

so

there's a lot there.

The reality is when you buy a little black dress for $9.99,

if you were to do any real scrutiny around the supply chain, there'd be probably things you're uncomfortable with.

And I always felt that CSR is a tiebreaker, that people, the majority of the market isn't willing to pay for it.

And

we always place on the upcoming generation greater expectations around their morality.

And I find that every generation, for the most part, wants a Rolex and a house and an Audi, and that they do care more about the environment.

And I don't even think of it socially, being socially conscious.

They just realize that when they go outside in San Francisco and it's orange out, that, okay, something's wrong, that we probably need, they are probably going to be around to incur the negative externalities of the world's, arguably one of the world's greatest arbitrages in history.

And that is pulling shit out of the ground and putting externalities in the air such that we could create

economic wealth, just as we're arbitraging teen depression and all these things.

They are kind of saying, okay,

what is the negative externalities of all these arbitrages that baby boomers have gotten wealthy on, and how do we address them?

But in the fashion community, the CSR is mostly a function of, I think it's an attribute that is sort of cool or in vogue.

And I've always believed that the only way you really address this, the only way you really address this is through regulation, because because the moment a company really makes tangible change around supply chain and materials and energy use and carbon footprint, it's very expensive.

And it puts them in a less competitive position than someone who's willing to come along and take and not and not do those very expensive things and reinvest it in marketing or reinvest it in making cooler looking stores.

So unless I think these companies, they'll do a little bit of it as marketing, but you can't ask them to disarm unilaterally.

The government has to step in.

You have to have regulation.

So I don't,

the question was, how do we make fashion more sustainable?

Yeah, consumers, consumers, I generally find there's consumer dissonance here in that is they talk a big game and then they mostly vote with what is the cutest dress for the lowest price with their pocketbooks that this requires thoughtful government regulation.

And the problem is we've emasculated.

the EPA, the FDA.

We've decided the government is no longer worthy of investment.

So these, these, we're in who pay.

And the problem is there's a lag.

It's just it all comes back to the same problem in America.

And that is we have become so short-term,

such short-term thinkers.

We don't say, well, okay, if you don't invest in sustainable technologies, if you don't invest in the EPA and regulations and tax companies right now and make it more difficult for them to spew shit in the air, you know, we're going to pay for it eventually.

But does this, these generations,

I don't see my kids talking about it, but is the buying power, it, is it something that brands will use to like say, we are, you know, we're, we're collecting all these clothes.

Used to be collecting clothes and sending it to the third world, if you recall, like t-shirts all over the place.

But the idea,

yeah, that we're going to like, Tom's did pretty well.

And others, is there, is there like a plus?

Because, you know, you saw, say, McDonald's all of a sudden saying we're going to have healthy food.

And then really, right?

Is it just a branding exercise or more than that?

It's mostly just, it's, it's mostly just branding.

I mean, and Tom's, quite frankly, Tom's has kind of come and gone.

Yeah, that's what I mean.

Your shoes sucked.

I remember being on the phone with someone at Tom's and I said, you know, we're a culture of innovation.

I'm like, your shoes suck.

What's innovative?

It's this flash in the pan CSR thing.

And if you don't come up with interesting products with different distributions,

it's not going to work.

So look, I don't, I'm trying to think of an example of a company.

What do you, I want to know what you use.

What do you use that's sustainable?

I really don't buy clothes at all, but that's just because I'm weird.

But what

I do wear?

I literally have clothes from high school that I continue to wear.

I don't think of myself as a socially conscious consumer.

I can't claim that.

I would like to be.

I like to be more thoughtful about it.

I had someone come over and offered him

an espresso and he said no.

And he seemed kind of like taken aback by it.

And I guess those pods are, and I know a lot of people have known this for a long time, are not very environmentally friendly.

And I started reading about it.

I'm like, oh, no, there's another thing I I can't, that I love that I can't use more of.

But look, the thing that's going to drive

the resale market is really exciting.

The resale market by 2028 is supposed to be a bigger market than fast fashion.

And if you look at the second wealthiest family in Europe, it's the family that owns Intitex Azara.

So the amount of wealth that's going to be created by resale is dramatic.

And it's not, okay, the free gift with purchase here is that it's obviously good for the environment.

But the thing that's driving it is that this new generation doesn't have as much money for the first time as their parents did at their age.

So they're fine or they're more open to the notion of saying, okay, I will wear previously worn, I will wear this really cute top from free people that's been worn three times that I can buy for 40% of the price.

Whereas before, people seemed freaked or sketched out by it.

Yeah, well, the real, the real real and stuff like that, they had some troubles at the beginning of the pandemic.

That was a growing business.

It just added some people onto its board.

Do you see that continuing those kind of things?

Because look what happened in the pandemic, right?

When you say see these things continuing, resale.

Resale, yeah, like the real real, I know, struggled at the beginning of the pandemic because

it's huge.

So you see,

what do you think of something like the real real?

And then we'll get on to programming.

Well,

I like the real real.

And I love one of the things I love about the real, real real is Julie Wainwright, who sat on top of one of the biggest kind of dot bombs and pets.com, has reinvented herself or is

sitting on top of an interesting company.

So

I like her story.

I think the real real is interesting.

I think it's a really neat service.

I like the fact that it combines technology, platforms, and also humans.

It's a really great,

I've had someone from The Real Real come over to our house and it's generally, it's almost to me, it's like the nice part of the gig economy.

It's generally, it's generally women.

It's generally women who need flexibility.

I think they get paid a decent wage.

They do.

My mom's made $10,000 from it.

Yeah.

And so

it's an opportunity to monetize your closet.

I think the gig workers are paid actually fairly well.

I think they make, you know, a lot more than minimum wage.

So I like the company.

I'm betting on them.

I think, unfortunately, what ends up happening is this is playtime.

And you might have a company like the Real Real.

The Real Real needs to get acquired because the moment...

Yeah.

I mean, for example, and I'm on the board of this company, full disclosure, but Urban Outfitters with their brands, with their infrastructure, with their consumer base, when they get into resale as we are, I think that there's just huge advantages there.

And then when Amazon or eBay,

Amazon would be an interesting buyer for the real.

That's an interesting.

I agree.

I agree.

She's an interesting.

I did an interview with her.

Were you there recently?

You know, she's, she's a pistol.

I've known her for a long time.

I covered pets.com.

Would you call a man a pistol?

I feel triggered.

I feel triggered.

Did you say I feel triggered?

I feel triggered.

She is an actual pistol.

Anyway, she is great.

She's a really interesting entrepreneur and has been through a lot.

And not just Pets.com, but before that had a lot of interesting early, she had one called real.com, I think.

Anyway, R-E-E-L.

Anyway, yeah, it's an interesting area.

All right.

This is fascinating.

Thank you for that great question.

And I'm Scott, the Chipotle clothes are on their way to you, right?

You know, you're speaking of the real reel that's going to make huge, like be monster is what your kids use.

And that's, I think it's called Stock X.

The

vintage shoes on it.

Yep.

I mean, that thing is.

We should have that CEO on our show.

We'll talk shoes.

shoes yeah that's a monster i just bought another pair of shoes for my son he has like 700 pairs of shoes all right one quick break and we'll be back for predictions

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Okay, Scott, last week, we we're doing big things for Shopify and Zoom.

Give us another prediction.

Well, I just want to stick to Shopify.

Something, and this is more of an idea.

I love that shop.

You love those Canadians.

How can you not love Canadians?

Seriously, it's like I'm going to move to Canada soon enough.

Soon it'll be mine degrees.

Who wouldn't want to move to Canada?

I mean, literally, when you look at how poorly we've handled the pandemic, it's like we come up with all these excuses and it's like, well, Canada has all that and they seem to have managed it.

But the Alberta-based Shopify has about $114 billion market cap.

And if you say, for example,

I love the idea of being the UN cola.

I'm fascinated.

I'm writing a blog post for no mercy in a mouthful.

Can you explain uncola for people?

Nobody remembers.

Another reference, now that you're in night fever, go ahead.

Bee Gees and night.

So the reason we're attracted to that exotic stranger, whether it's Sophia Loren or Omar Sharif or someone who doesn't look, feel, and smell exactly like the people we grew up with, is genetic diversity helps the next generation be more adaptable because it has skills and genes that are different than ours and also helps us avoid things like hemophilia and tase

because if you get two defective genes together you get it whereas you're less likely so the symmetry of your facial facial features which supposedly indicate an ability to fight a infection and also a little bit of a little bit of diversity are things that you know we want to sleep with we want to have sex with people that have symmetry around their face and come from a little bit of a different background.

And that extends into our brand purchases.

And about the moment everyone is wearing Nikes, you start thinking, okay, I need to go with, I'm all of a sudden very attracted to Adidas.

I need to start diversifying.

Did you just say Adidas?

Adidas.

Adidasler was the founder of Adidas.

Adidas.

Okay.

Anyways, the dog can be pretentious.

Little Eurohound, little Eurohound coming out for the dog.

Anyways.

Anyway, so, so, so.

Nike, Nike, Nike.

One of these really interesting brand strategies is about the moment something becomes ubiquitous and there's no genetic variance in a category where all everyone does is mimic the leader and it begins to feel like the whole space is Docker.

Somebody shows up and zigs to the zag or becomes the Ancola.

And the greatest

Ancola.

in of the last 10 years was Shopify.

While everyone was trying to be more like Amazon, Shopify said, we're going to be the non-Amazon Amazon.

We're going to provide infrastructure and e-commerce and a platform, but we're going to let you keep your data.

We're going to let you keep your packaging.

We're going to let you have custody of the consumer.

We're not going to make money off the data that is.

The uncola.

And they built a $120 billion market cap company, which by the way, is now, think about this, Shopify is worth more than Boeing and Ford Motor combined.

So let's go shopping.

I'm fascinated with this.

What could they offer?

What could they offer small and medium-sized commerce players?

Well, you keep saying they're going to buy FedEx or UPS, right?

That's the exciting part.

What if if they said, all right, let's buy FedEx and let's buy Simon properties.

And we can offer every small and medium-sized commerce player in the world a couple of things.

The second best last mile infrastructure in the world, probably second to Amazon, although FedEx would say they're number one.

And

we could also offer the tens of thousands of small, medium.

small and medium-sized businesses that want to sell stuff flexible on-demand dial up dial down real estate uh retail bricks and mortar and the best real estate in the world and i think that would literally be saying, okay, Amazon, we are coming for your ass.

And if they acquired both those companies, Shopify would still own 60%.

Now, Simon is buying JCPenney, right?

Simon?

Yeah, that's a totally different talk show.

That's a weird one.

That is just, that is just weird.

And we'll come back to that because it's fascinating.

I really like Simon Progress.

Anyways, but think about how gangster this would be.

Shopify X could say to the world of commerce, we'll give you the best last mile delivery, in addition to all the infrastructure online, customer acquisition.

And if you're nomad surf shop, where I just bought my son a surfboard for his 13th birthday here in Delroy Beach, we'll give you some pop-up stores in 12 great markets.

And instead of having to sign a 10-year lease, you can sign a 10-month lease.

That would really be a coming for Amazon to vertically integrate up or down.

Because another thing, verticalization, and I'm thinking academically, because my brand strategy class kicks off in about 17 days and I'm totally

Louis Swisher's still at NYU.

Wrong, you were.

And actually, New York is about to open up restaurants indoor dining because they've been under 1% for 30 days.

Just saying.

Just saying.

Well,

I hope it works out.

By the way,

by the way,

I'll see you and up you, the University of North Carolina, Notre Dame, the University of Alabama.

Agreed, agreed.

I'm just saying there's ways to it.

Possibly, possibly a way.

Maybe of smart prompts.

All right.

Now you're taking the object, but to what end?

Why are we risking the health of these communities?

And then the communities were going to send these kids back to it.

You're right.

Oh, these, all these places are closing.

It's just a matter of one.

Louis will be back home before you know it.

Anyways, anyways, by the way, I'm going to be clear: the people in NYU.

He's liking New York.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's actually safer than New York, weirdly enough, in terms of numbers.

You totally triggered me.

You took me off track.

We were talking about.

Oh, Shopify was a prediction.

So the real crazy thing here would be if Shopify, FedEx, and Simon all got together and said, Shopify said, okay, let's be honest, our stock is overvalued.

And FedEx said, let's be honest.

These guys, it's going to be hard for us to make the infrastructure investments with capital that's four times as expensive as Amazon.

And Simon said, I have the best real estate in the world, but let's be honest, it's real estate and retail is a total shit show right now.

Let's create a true competitor infrastructure play to Amazon that's totally vertical around customers acquisition, technology infrastructure, last mile delivery, and the front end around bricks and mortar, where 70% of commerce still takes place.

I just, I like this.

I think it would be a really bold, big, bigger, feels a little duckbill

Feels a little duck-billed platypus, but okay, sure.

Okay,

duck-billed platypus.

You know, like one of those animals that's made of all the different freakish Frankenstein,

but we'll see.

I think that it's hard to work together like that.

And Amazon's like the army that's just all together.

It just moves.

You know what?

If the British, the Russians, and the Americans can figure out a way to get along and turn back Hitler, we can turn back Amazon.

And by the way, I am not equating Amazon with Hitler.

It's a metaphor.

It's a war metaphor.

Literally, just no, I would.

No, no, no.

I'll compare the president to Hitler in a very direct way, but not Amazon.

I'm comparing Amazon to the Axis power.

Yeah, gig your way out of that one.

All right, listen to me.

That is a really interesting and smart idea.

Have you consulted with them and you want to be on their board or what's the deal?

No, I know the guys.

I know the guys at Simon.

They're really smart.

thoughtful like i like those guys a lot and i don't know the guys at fedex and i don't know the guy at uh the guys at shopify i hear from them because they're all my name say the girls at i'm just saying well okay well there are none i mean well okay who are the girls that shop a five extra assignment i'm just saying i just wanted to point that out for our listeners to understand that persistent sexism exists in all these places it's a fair

last question for you uh what your brand strategy thing starts when this week this week so i have two i have two things coming up i have 280 kids for brand strategy uh in my marketing class at nyu starting uh two weeks from uh i'm sorry starting a week from tuesday and then i'm kicking off 500 kids in my online brand sprint that I'm offering through Section 4, which is a three-week.

You have more students on your own thing versus the universe.

I'm back and I'm freaking out.

I got to go.

What's the first thing you're going to say to them besides boom?

You mean the first kind of lesson?

What's your first line to your students at NYU?

Well, that the brand era is over.

You say it like that because that's like dull online.

What's your thing?

The brand era is dull.

Please take it.

The brand era is over.

Please.

What's your line?

I want to hear your line.

I always start off with the same opening line.

I call on someone and I say, what is brand?

And I just point at someone and get them talking.

And you got to, and your son asked about

how do you stay engaged online on the other end.

And I thought a little bit about it.

One is I find if I'm listening on a Zoom call, I try and write things down.

Otherwise, I just lose interest.

When I hear an interesting point, I write it down.

But with Zoom and now just generally as my class have gotten bigger, you got to call on people.

If there's not the fear of accountability, they don't pay attention.

And I shame them.

And when they come up with something stupid, I say, That's stupid.

I'm going to

ask you again.

I was hoping for a costume change or something like that.

They don't pay attention.

Just to, you know, no, I play cool DJ music.

You two can come experience the wonder of the dog for only seven thousand dollars for three credits.

What a great deal.

You played me all early hip-hop and rap last night, all of it.

I did know some of it, which was good.

I raised you are all over the place today.

Your brain is firing everywhere.

Everywhere.

Yeah, I've been doing a lot of different interviews for Sway.

So I've got to know about a lot of things, which is going to be different.

So by the way, the fact that you're not out there

hoovering up all the good guests, the dog is slipping in when you're not with not a podcast.

I've had Julian Castro.

I had Judd Appetow today.

I've got them.

Go ahead.

Who else?

Well, I know now the dog's got them.

Now I'm literally like, okay, well, she's not here.

I'm going to feed.

I'm going to feed.

You see who I got?

Okay.

Julian Costro.

Okay.

That was great.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Judd Abata.

He's a very thoughtful guy.

He's great.

He's a great guy.

He's really.

Have you seen The King of Staten Island?

I have.

My son made me watch it.

Yes.

And what did you think?

I don't love Pete Davidson, but I thought the movie was great.

I thought, especially the guy who's the boyfriend of the mother.

I love Marissa Tanay.

Yeah, I like her too.

She's fantastic.

She's so undersung as an actress.

I think she's so raw.

She's so scorchingly hot.

She's that too.

But she's also very, like, you can feel her insecurity.

She's really a good actor.

She's always been a good actor.

She was fantastic in the wrestler.

And the guy, I don't remember his name who played our boyfriend the firefighter, I thought was great.

There were a lot of great character actors in that movie.

He's really interesting.

He's done some great things for Hollywood.

He does films that, relatively speaking, are lower budget, and he's really into discovering new talent.

He doesn't do films with a Judd Avato.

He believes in finding,

introducing the world to new talents.

He's super talented.

I think he was in a bit of

doing his same old, same old.

He always knew what his movie was.

And then he sort of, it's hard because he, you know, he has a formula that works.

Freaks and geeks.

I mean, he's done some interesting stuff.

Yeah, he's very talented.

All right, Scott, before we head out, a big part of what makes our show special is you, our listeners, not you, Scott Galloway.

That's why we'd like your help to plan our future by filling out a short survey.

Scott will not listen to you, but I certainly will.

Your responses will help us understand who's listening, how your listening habits have changed in the past few months, and hopefully how we can reach even more people.

Go to voxmedia.com slash pod survey.

That's voxmedia.com slash pod survey.

Will you fill it out, Scott?

Tell me what you think of the show.

100%.

100%.

We're bringing sexy back.

That's my only comment.

Okay, today's show.

Oh, my God.

That's another song.

That's another

song.

That's a raptor?

Right, Justin Timberlake.

Start to read the comments.

That guy's talented.

He is.

Indeed, he is.

Yes, another person who doesn't seem talented, but he is.

Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sinanes.

Fernando Finite engineered this episode.

Erica Anderson is Pivot's executive producer and special thanks to Drew Burroughs.

Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts.

Or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.

If you like the show, please recommend it to a friend.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

We'll be back next week for a breakdown of all things tech and business.

This month on Explain It to Me, we're talking about all things wellness.

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But what does it actually mean to be well?

Why do we want that so badly?

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