Trump Comes for the Fed, The Redistricting Wars, and Guest Co-Host Gov. Gavin Newsom

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Oh my God, you're interrupting already.

You're like Scott.

Scott's coming back next week, and now I've got Scott Part Two.

Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher, and this is the final day of

Scott Free August.

That's my sting.

I love it.

We're going big for Scott Free August grand finale.

My guest co-host is a podcaster.

He's also the governor of California and possibly the only person that could match Scott in irritating me.

It's Gavin Newsom.

Welcome, Gavin.

It is great to be with you.

The final, the final day.

When's Scott back?

When's he back?

After Labor Day.

We have a day off on Labor Day because we labor a lot.

Yeah, and then he's back.

what has he been hibernating is he writing a book what's he doing what what's what's the no he's in nantucket he's in nantucket or in aspen he goes to like rich people vacations all over the place and then and then starts tweeting at the end of august because he wants to say something about not tweeting he's on threads and stuff but he like starts to try to engage again and he's desperate to get back desperate to get back desperate to get back

it's good to be back with you on this very special yes final episode of scott Free August.

Try to keep the hand gestures to a minimum because they're very irritating to the president.

I know I'm very sensitive.

I mean, if people didn't see Trump attack my hand motions, he said that was, so I'm very sensitive.

Now, you're right.

I'm going to, I'm just going to forgive me.

You're not going to see them again.

I'll do my best.

No.

I like your hand motions.

It's such, what's wrong with you?

He does a lot of hand motions.

Every accusation is a confession with these people.

Another example of projection.

Just one more, one more than you need.

Yeah, we're going to get to that today.

Got lots of important issues.

Redistricting the Fed, big tech.

So talk, I think the most important thing we have to discuss is what do you think about Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey today?

I think it's hard not to.

Breaking the internet.

Breaking the internet.

I was just thinking, you think it's going to be a big wedding or a small wedding?

You think they'll do the opposite of what many people think?

And where are they going to get married?

Is it like a Jeff Bezos thing?

Yeah, I think it's going to be a little more.

My thing is going to be smaller, more.

I just think they're going to intentionally do something to surprise people.

Oh, interesting.

Not like a Super Bowl stadium kind of thing.

No, I don't expect it's going to be all that.

No, I think it's going to be family.

I think it's going to be much more just communal.

I just, I don't expect it to be over the top.

Did it catch you off guard?

No, they didn't catch me off guard.

Are you going to be invited?

Come on.

I don't know these.

I don't know them.

I'm literally never met either of them.

I do have a one, you know, sorry, and I don't mean to do a little Trump thing on you, but I have a vineyard that's 13th Vineyard.

It's a 13th license in Napa.

And so I sent a bottle of 13th wine

to her suite at the Super Bowl.

That's my biggest connection to Taylor Swift.

I have no other connection because she loves

the number of people.

Do you have a wedding on your vineyard?

Do you think she'd have an option?

No, I'm not promoting that.

Do you think she'd have

I mean, that's the closest I am to Taylor Swift, besides politics.

Clearly, we share politics.

Okay.

Are you happy?

Do you think this is a good thing?

I think it's a great thing.

I want her to be happy.

She seems like a lovely person.

And he's the real deal.

I have deep respect for him.

So, you know what?

We need more.

We need a little bit of happiness in a world where we're so.

I mean, come on, this has been hard every day, including what happened this morning, the first week of school, right, in Minneapolis.

So, this is so we can all use a little bit of that

and a little bit of love.

That's true.

We can move on if you tell me your favorite song of hers.

Well,

I like all of her new songs from

the old catalog.

So this proving I'm a Swifty.

The old catalog.

No, well, I like the old catalog, but I like all the new versions, Taylor versions of all the new songs.

So that's how comprehensive my respect for her and love is.

Okay.

All right.

I'll move on from our, anyway, we wish you well, Travis.

I mean, Travis and Taylor.

It's going to be a TT.

It's going to be great.

We are getting married in California, right?

I hope so.

Yeah, I expect so.

That's my little pitch.

But I want to ask you about a less dynamic duo, Sean Hannity and Florida governor Ron DeSantis.

They've challenged you to another debate.

Will you accept?

Getting on the little news first.

Well, I think it's interesting that they challenged me because it only reinforced the first debate was Sean Hannity and Ron DeSantis.

It wasn't against Ron DeSantis and the network and the platform itself, Fox.

I think they're, I forgot.

I don't mean to be too dismissive, but honestly, I kind of forgot that Ron DeSantis is still governor.

And it was sort of a bit of a reminder.

And I think maybe that's what it's all about.

Yeah, I think they're having a hard time over there at Fox.

Would you do it?

I have no interest whatsoever.

Literally, it's sub-zero interest.

I'm saying you've become quite a bit of the debate over there.

Like they talk about you constantly.

Yeah, no, it's a bit of an obsession.

And so, no, he's,

Sean and I have,

I don't know, we're a little bit of separation now.

I was gauging, you know, as you know, I went out a couple of years ago on a serious note, a really sort of challenged, a lot of my Democratic friends were upset, started showing up on Fox.

I did this sit-down interview with Sean.

It was over an hour and a half,

you know, unedited.

I said, look, if you're going to come and interview me, let's do it.

But no edits and let's, you know, go after me and I'll, you know, back and forth.

And to his credit, they did multiple segments and aired the entire interview unedited.

And, you know, I sort of stayed in touch and that ultimately led to a debate with Ron DeSantis and a debate within my own party.

Should we even condone, should we show up, should we be on these platforms?

You're just elevating them or at least validating them in some respects.

And I thought it was important that we got to meet people where they are and we've got to get in the bloodstream of those we disagree with.

And so I've tried to maintain that.

I think it's important.

But I think

they're way out.

They've completely lost the plot over there at Fox.

There's a bit of a, you know,

look, I'm the first to acknowledge the Trump derangement syndrome, but they have a California derangement syndrome and increasingly a derangement syndrome about me on Fox.

I think the other night they did seven or eight segments with their primetime lineup.

It's, it's a little, it's not over the top.

It's, it's way over the top.

And of course, at this moment, you may know this, I'm suing them as well for defamation.

And I don't do that lightly.

I've been on the receiving end of them as the punching bag for years and years and years.

It's not about the criticism coming out of there.

It's just the just outright lies, mis and disinformation.

And so we're taking them to task and we've got that defamation lawyer.

There were lawsuits about

a conversation you had with Donald Trump, right?

That they were alleging.

Yeah, a conversation they said I, that, uh, that never, that we never had.

The president said we had a day before that never existed.

Uh, and uh, and they came out and they said I lied about it.

And they, they, they shared that on all their platforms and they shared that around the world.

I had people, honestly, it was like interesting, Carol,

for all the stuff that's on Fox, you know, people are socialized.

They turn on Fox.

They'll see people like me getting attacked.

But this one broke into folks that I knew well, said, hey, man, why'd you lie about that?

I said, what do you mean they lied about it?

And I saw the Chiron.

It says Gavin lied.

And it was just they knowingly lied

about.

the conversation that never occurred and the conversation that did occur, they did not contextualize.

And they just crossed the line.

And, you know, I thought after all the Dominion stuff and everything else, they had honestly at least feigned to change their ways and they clearly haven't.

Yeah, well, we'll see what happens there.

But one of the things that's important is you are the topic of discussion.

Part of it is because of the stuff you're up to right now, which I think is really interesting, as you know.

We've talked about it a little bit.

We texted about it.

But I want to talk about your new role.

I guess troll-in-chief.

I don't know, as one newspaper put it.

But in the last few weeks, you've flooded social media with all caps posts, insults, AI-generated memes, mocking Trump and his policies.

You recently got into the merch game, selling MAGA-inspired Bibles, Red Hats, and even Make America Gavin Again flag, which is really funny.

Fox News has been melting down, as you said.

Dana Perino said, if she were your wife, she'd tell you you're making a fool of yourself.

And while a lot of liberals are loving this, you have critics on the less, of course, you say the Democrat

needs to do more than be an anti-Trump party.

I disagree.

I think this is highly effective, especially that you're not stopping.

So talk a little bit.

I'd love to know this strategy.

I have an idea of why you think you're doing it.

Talk about the strategy.

I have theories on it, but I'd love to hear it from you.

Well, I just wanted to put a mirror up to the absurdity of all of this.

And I wish Dana Perino and others have made that point months and months years ago.

All the old cap tweets, the Trump putting himself on memes as the Pope or putting him up, memes as Superman or with his shirt off and

on top of different

superhero characters or dinosaurs.

I mean, it's just, it's comical.

and yet it's become so normalized and socialized in a way that's not even critiqued in the extreme right.

And so I just wanted to challenge that and challenge all these pundits out there, challenge all these people, all these acolytes, people that are just fawning over a guy who puts his picture up on Mount Rushmore that

does text like a 13-year-old or a 10-year-old.

It's humiliating.

It's embarrassing.

And so

this is the mirror.

And it's a mirror not just to Trump himself,

but to these, you know, these networks that, you know,

these guys are talk about, you know, these are the chat bots for the administration.

And it's not just Fox.

It's One American News.

It's Newsmax.

And it's all the folks in the right-wing media.

And I'm glad they're melting down over.

I'm glad they're challenging.

I mean, their situational unawareness is rather jaw-dropping.

So what is the strategy?

How did you come up with it?

And you have given credit to the whole team in creating these memes, but it does, someone asked me about it.

I said, well, just, this does sound like him, the person I know.

You can be very funny and cutting and sarcastic and stuff like that.

This is like, it's sort of in your wheelhouse to do, to sort of do this.

Talk about how it's made and the strategy.

I appreciate it.

Look, I think it's, there's, there's, um,

there's, um, there's one answer to that, and then there's a subtext.

This thing really, it's, it's about iteration.

I've always been willing to try new things.

So I'm always trying

to, you know, challenge my team.

Just let's see what works.

I mean, that's why I went on Fox.

That's why I did the debate with Ron DeSantis.

That's why I went, I was one of the first Democrats to go on True Social.

That's why I started a PAC a few years ago and only went to red states and started raising awareness and resources in parts of the country where I feel the Democratic Party walked away.

And so it's part of that, but it's also specifically part of

what we were on the receiving end of after the fires in January in LA.

And before that.

And just a a different level of mis and disinformation.

And to your point about before that, look, the recall, these guys, I, you know, I'm romantic.

I always think all politics is local.

I was sort of born and bred with that construct, but that's not the case, obviously.

And I intellectualized that, but I never fully internalized it until the recall.

And I had guys like Newt Gingrich, and I had folks like Mike Huckabee and the RNC nationalizing their grievance.

And of course, all the folks at Fox and One American News, et cetera, coming after us.

So I started to shift our approach.

Then it really got into high gear after the fires where Trump and Elon Musk were coming after us, and they were winning on the just rank lies about water policy and all the BS.

But the National Guard, the care of the National Guard and what they did to federalize 4,000 of our National Guard men and women and put 700 active duty military on the streets of L.A., that's when we just said, we're on the other side of this.

And we told the team, it's no permission slip now not even forgiveness you just go and we go hard and we don't stop and you don't stop that's what's interesting about it because it's relentless which is very different i had told i think it was kamala harris like you've got to be almost promiscuous now from a social media point of view you have to be everywhere constantly and not stopping which i think characterizes this quite a bit and do you when you hear criticism is too much or cringy or even from the left or right how do you answer that you know how i answered it kind of interesting uh because I haven't really said this publicly, but I send my team a YouTube video of Marshawn Lynch on 60 Minutes Sports when he was asked his running style.

And he says going into the front line goes over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

And

so this notion of communication, I could not agree with you more.

Trump's success is the simplicity to which he communicates the same thing in that cadence over and over and over and over and over again.

And we move week to week.

It's infrastructure week and all of a sudden not child care week and it's foster care week.

And as a consequence, we have weak messaging and they're winning the narrative war.

Illusion rules.

Facts don't matter.

That's what Fox understands.

That's what Trump understands.

He floods the zone and we're constantly on our heels and not on our front toes.

And so what we're trying to do is, yes, fight fire with fire with the redistricting substance and in terms of our communication style.

And we're trying to keep at it and we've done it.

Look, you mentioned, you know, the Patriot store.

You know, I mean, just look at the stuff he's selling.

Perfumes.

Yeah.

This is embarrassing.

The guy's hawking Bibles.

Ours is sold out.

So if you want it, sorry, it's sold out.

I was hoping to get one.

And if you want a real prediction, I know we talked about the Taylor Swift prediction.

The real prediction is, you know, we're about to put a meme coin out.

And you know what, Donald Trump?

We'll see how well your coin does versus our coin.

I mean,

we're just trying

to

turn up the heat.

The meme coin, is it going to be called Gavin coin?

No, it's, I think, Trump corruption coin.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

That's a little bit.

This is one of the great grifters of our time.

This is just jaw-dropping.

And none of this is normal.

Again, none of this is funny.

I mean, it's funny in one respect, but it's

funny.

It's extraordinary what's going on.

It's jaw-dropping.

His family is sent out before these foreign trips doing deals.

Deals are literally done before tariffs are imposed.

The crony capitalism that's going on, the people that are selling their souls in this country, the fact that you saw there these guys bloviating at that, I mean, that was, I mean, insanity

yesterday at the cabinet meeting and Lutnik talking about socializing and nationalizing companies like Lockheed.

I mean, this is, and you're worried about Mandani and some grocery stores.

And these guys are taking tithings from AMD, 15% from NVIDIA.

I mean, this is serious stuff.

And so the graft and the corruption, the self-dealing

is something that will continue to call out and just to be,

I'm really worried about this country.

I think we've crossed the red line.

I think it is much more acute and profound

than many people think.

And I just try to wake people up.

That's what this is all about.

Wake people.

So

what is the next?

What is the next?

It has to be this aggression, correct?

Which I, again, I think is the correct method.

Others, you know, I think the Democratic Party is far too weak in that regard in terms of behaving when they're not behaving, right?

That kind of thing.

Yeah, look, I mean,

it was so indelible.

I don't know why I'm sort of, you know, stuck years and years in my mindset.

And I remember, you know, and it's been well.

discussed, but I'll repeat it for the few folks that don't remember it.

But after we got shellacked in one of the midterms, I think Clinton was out of office and the Democratic Party lost and people were trying to sort of of hand ring and we were trying to figure out if we all need to go to Applebee's and we were reading Applebee's America and we all just, you know, we need to, you know, we, we need to go to the heartland, all this messaging stuff.

And Bill Clinton just summed it up.

He said, given the choice, given the choice, the American people will always support strong and wrong versus weak and right.

And I've been doing a lot of forensics, as you know, and people have criticized me for having folks that, you know, my party disagrees with vehemently, like Charlie Kirk or Steve Bannon or Newt Gingrich or even, you know, old school conservatives like Michael Savage on.

It's to try to understand what the hell's happened to my party, the Democratic Party.

But the more I've sort of mined it, the more I've gotten into the issues and reflected on what's happened, I think it comes down.

I mean, at the core, it comes down to what you just said.

It's about weakness.

We appear so damn weak.

And I can't take it anymore.

And I think our brand has struggled.

We're suffering from that.

And so what I'm trying to express is a desire to push back, to punch these guys back in the mouth.

Forgive me.

I know it's hard.

Yes, fight firefighter.

And just like that.

You know, I wish you'd have punched harder with those interviews.

So in that, my whole thing was, for example, the Tucker Carls interview with Ted Cruz was a lot better than yours with Bannon.

That's what I would say.

That's, you know what I mean?

You had an opportunity to engage with him.

Why not engage?

Well, you know,

forgive me, you know, that was my second ever podcast.

I'm not the pro that some of these others are, but I appreciate the insight.

But also, let me say this, and sincerely, that's not, that's, when I started the podcast, I said, I was very clear what this is and what this wasn't.

I said, I'm not, you want to see me debate, tune into Fox, you know, go online, see what I do every single day.

I have no problem fighting these guys.

I have no fighting debating.

But what that, but what I'm trying to do is have a civil conversation because I want to understand.

You know, I think the amazing thing about the Bannon interview was I thought I was interviewing Bernie Sanders for half of it.

He was talking about populism.

He was making the case for California's tax code.

Steve Bannon was.

And, you know, I thought it was, there was interesting aspects of that.

And I think we're so tuned up in terms of wanting to tune people out because we reject obvious

flaws that I want to create a space for folks where at least they can feel like we can have a civil dialogue.

And I'd totally get people upset about it.

They rather seem nervous about you now, which is why, hence the attacks, correct?

Presumably, that's what it seems to be working for you, right?

Well, yeah, I guess.

And I'm trying not to make it for me.

Look, I do think, you know, once a mind is stretched, it never goes back to its original form.

I think Donald Trump understands that.

That's why he throws things out and he sees what works.

He's got his focus group, which is his rallies.

And increasingly, he's doing that with the media.

He does that every day, sort of testing those boundaries.

And

I'm trying to do the same a little bit as it relates to communication style, how we're iterating, trying new things, and try to encourage other people.

I'll take the arrows in the back.

I'll do the first mover, but hopefully get other people to feel a little more comfortable in that space.

And, you know, I see it a little bit.

I saw Ken Martin at the DNC.

He was a little more aggressive.

I feel like we're getting back on our feet.

Okay.

So do you have a, I'm going to get to the more serious thing of the redistricting, but do you have a favorite of your memes?

Calling Trump tiny hands was nice.

You're getting prayed over by Tucker Carlson, Kid Rock, and an angelic hull collection.

Oh, that was my favorite.

There's a lot of user-generated, jesty stuff going on with you there.

Yeah, they finally did some untouched photos of me without a shirt on, which is good to finally see something that's not edited.

Yeah.

Is there one that you like that you're like, well done?

No, I think it's a team of people, right?

I, I, come on.

I think,

God bless Hulk.

I'm sorry for his passing, his family's loss, but I think that Tucker Kid Rock, come on.

That's why it's a t-shirt.

It's available on the Patriot site.

And, you know, and before the meme coin, as I said, the Bible's already sold out.

And I'd encourage you that that's going to be limited edition, that t-shirt.

Okay, I'm excited for the steak.

Where do the proceeds from the Patriot shop go in the meme coin?

Well, in the meme coin that will soon be, the Trump corruption coin, available to all of you, all of those go to our campaign for democracy.

They go for this effort on the redistricting.

They go into this effort.

They go into our effort to continue to raise awareness and continue to communicate and organize.

But let's talk more seriously.

The trolling has kicked into high gear about redistricting fight that started in Texas and could be spread across the country.

You signed two redistricting bills last week and called a special election for voters to approve the new congressional map aimed at countering Texas, adding five new GOP seats.

If the ballot measure passes, Democrats could pick up as many as five House seats in 2026.

And meanwhile, Trump said this week the DOJ will sue California over the move.

It's also

divisive a little bit.

Former California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has been vocal in opposing the plan.

But on the other hand, Danny DeVito chipped in $1,000 to support it.

For people who don't know that, you're driving a wedge between the classic twins stars from the 80s.

Talk a little bit about what you're doing here.

And of course, there's been innumerable think pieces of has he bitten off more than he can chew?

Is this the way to go?

Could other red state governors start to participate, as well as blue state governors?

But of course they're going to do that anyway.

I mean, that punditry is so naive, it's not even worth the paper it's printed on.

I mean, the idea that Trump was going to stop at Texas was absurd to begin with.

Remember, it was Trump who started this.

They drew proverb of first blood.

It was Trump that called Abbott, said, I am entitled.

Not the words he used in that first phone call, but weeks later, he said he's entitled to five seats.

He is trying to rig the election before one vote is cast.

What more evidence did we need than January 6th, where he tried to light democracy on fire and wreck this country and tried to dial up for 11, almost 12,000 votes to the Secretary of State in Georgia.

Now he's doing it in plain sight.

You saw him yesterday.

He was in the Oval Office with the Speaker of the Indiana Legislature and the Senate chair saying, we need to do what J.D.

Vance was assigned to tell you to do a week ago.

You need to move in Indiana, in Missouri.

And of course, Ron DeSantis will do anything the guy asks.

in order to get back in his good graces.

So these guys are going.

They're not screwing around, and we can't screw around either.

And so, yeah, we're pushing back.

We'll neutralize what's happened in Texas, but we need other Democrats in other states to do the same thing.

This is it.

You don't get a do-over.

This thing can end.

Is that happening?

How are you organizing them?

Well, I'm trying to, back to this notion, once the mind is strong.

I'm hoping the legislative leaders in those states are putting pressure.

I know the governors like Moore and others, Wes Moore has talked about it in Maryland.

Obviously, Kathy Hochl's talked a little bit about it.

Pritzker has talked a bit about it, but we got to move.

You know, as we pray, we have to move our feet.

It's action.

So we got to go.

And look, back to biting off a lot.

I get that.

You know, we had to do it in a different way.

We're doing it in a transparent way, a temporary way.

We're keeping our independent redistricting, which we've had for 15 years, but in a temporary basis, we're responding to what Trump has done and what Texas has done in an emergency manner in 26, 28, and in 2030 for congressional seats only.

And we're doing it in the most democratic way of any state in U.S.

history.

There's never been maps put to the voters so they'll decide for themselves.

As opposed to this supermajority in a state.

Yeah, or whatever Mar-a-Lago map.

you know, writing folks are sending their way, which, I mean, this is, so, you know, this, this is the contrast in the approach.

And again, we're just, we're trying to be accountable to this moment.

I'm not interested in holding hands and talking about the world should be.

I'm not going to be the ex-governor sitting there in some think tank, putting on a white paper saying, Democrat, you know, I can't take that anymore.

Enough, everybody.

We got to get to get in the way.

Do you feel that you'll be able to neutralize you and other blue state governors, be able to do that?

I just, you know, I hope so.

But even if we can't, they know that Trump did this because he knows he's going to lose.

And he knows he's going to lose because he's singularly the most.

He's in Iowa.

Yeah, he's the the most, but he's the most, he lost yesterday in Iowa

in that local race, which was great, that statewide race.

But the point being, he continues to lose.

He's going to lose in Virginia.

He's going to lose in New Jersey in those governors races.

He can continue to see his polls are some of the worst in American history.

His policies are the most unpopular in modern American history.

He's flailing every single day.

That's what all these threats and the mortgage stuff is all about, going after enemies, threatening to arrest people.

He's falling apart.

And as I continue to say, he's weakness masquerading his strength.

And so we have to be assertive and we have to recognize that there are no limits with this guy.

And he'll do, if he can rig next year's election, you're not, I mean, we joke about not having another one.

I don't think that's a joke.

He will wire this for the next 20, 30 years.

If it's a JD or if it's a Don, I don't, it doesn't even matter.

He will wire it.

He's already sending out masked people

to intimidate folks.

When we launched our campaign, he did it down in Little Tokyo in L.A.

Do you think ICE is not going to show up around voting and polling booths to chill participation?

You know that.

The National Guard, you know that.

Everybody knows what's at stake.

So we have to put a stake in the ground and do things differently.

For all the funny stuff you're doing.

You're absolutely right.

And what do you say to people like Schwarzenegger and others at Munger who are like, let's not do this.

Let's not go here.

Well, it's romantic.

We can do a group hug.

We can talk.

I want to go back to that place too, but we're not in it.

I mean, it's just, they've lost the plot about the world we're living in right now.

Trump doesn't play by a different set of rules.

He doesn't play by any rules.

You're a fool if you engage in a contest playing by the rules and the other side doesn't play by any rules.

The consequences of that are profound.

This is about the architecture of our country.

This is about co-equal branches of government, popular sovereignty.

This is about the rule of law versus the rule of dawn.

There is no independent redistricting to those two in the future if Trump wires this election.

There's none.

It's over.

They have to recognize that.

And I get why they're holding on to this romantic notion.

And by the way, I respect their point of view so much so that we maintain the Independent Redistricting commission, but in an emergency manner, we respond to this moment.

That's it.

So, summed up, it's the Patrick Swayze Roadhouse rule: be nice until it's time not to be nice.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, I guess.

And look,

we all want to be nice and we all want to get back to that.

You know, we want the Aaron Sorkin.

We want the music in the background.

I want that.

We all want to go back to West Wing.

You know, I want to see, you know, but

that's not, that's not Trump's America.

And it may not be the United States of America if we don't wake up.

Wake up, everybody.

All right, Governor, let's go on a quick break when we come back.

Trump's unprecedented move to control the Fed, another version of this.

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Governor Newsom, we're back.

President Trump is escalating his push to control the Federal Reserve, announcing this week he's removing federal governor Lisa Cook.

Trump posted his letter to Cook on True Social saying there was, quote, sufficient cause for removal, citing unproven allegations of mortgage fraud.

Cook plans to sue with their lawyer arguing Trump has no authority to order the firing.

It looks like that.

The Fed, for its part, is defending its independence, but says it will buy whatever.

The courts decide this is almost certainly going to the Supreme Court.

Talk a little bit about this, and then I want to talk about what's happening in the cities that you referenced before.

No, I mean, it's what we were just talking about in the last section.

It's not the rule of law, it's the rule of Don.

There are no constraints anymore.

And with this Supreme Court, there may actually not be any constraints.

Already eliminated one co-equal branch of government.

Ron Johnson's run to the woods.

It's irrelevant.

It's Mike Johnson.

It's whatever his name is.

He's the representative of a district, Street Port Louisa, that has six times the murder rate of Nancy Pelosi, San Francisco.

It's that guy that I'm referring to.

And so there is no co-equal branch of government.

And the question is, is there a third branch,

the judicial branch?

And with the Supreme Court, it's an open-ended question.

And so it's an open-ended question of whether or not he, quote unquote, for cause, can have her fired.

And if he can have her fired, he can have any of the board members fired, not just Chair Powell.

And then he can start getting rid of all the regional presidents.

So now you don't have an independent monetary system.

You don't have the truth and trust around the globe.

And now we're in, what, Argentina?

We're in Turkey.

We're back to the good old days of Nixon and the inflationary impacts of his decisions and impacts on the Fed policy that we all enjoyed in the 70s.

And so this is, again, just another proof point of the world we're living in and why it's essential that everyone disabuse themselves, that we can operate as we have in the past.

Do you imagine where he's going to strike next?

Obviously, he's talking of militarizing more cities.

As we talk on Wednesday, the president is still suggesting Chicago, Baltimore, and New York are next.

He's mentioned San Francisco.

The president has said, quote, I have the right to do anything I want.

I'm the president of the United States in response to sending the National Guard to Chicago.

Speaking of deploying troops to Baltimore, Trump wrote, if Westmore needs help, like Gavin Newscomb did in L.A., I will send in the troops.

Meanwhile, in D.C., the National Guard, who were sent to deal with a crime emergency, has been picking up trash as a part of a beautification mission.

What say you?

Because you, did he help you in L.A.?

Yeah, no, I mean,

we could have used the help because we had to protect the National Guard.

We could have used the help after he federalized them.

It was the California Highway Patrol and the LAPD that actually had to protect the military

because that became the attractive nuisance for protests.

But he offered no help in that respect.

The vast majority, I'll remind you, thousands and thousands of our National Guard, by the way, police officers, firefighters, teachers

that were pulled off the beat.

and their day jobs ended up in the armories doing literally nothing, hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayers' money.

They had nothing to do.

And the few hundred that were assigned at any different time, again, had to be protected by local law enforcement.

So this isn't, obviously, none of this has anything to do with public safety, quite the contrary.

It's about power, dominance, and aggression, the only thing he understands.

And the question is, does he have the legal right?

And we completely reject that.

And I say that.

because I think it's important to highlight for your audience.

We are not just saying that.

We have asserted that.

And we were in federal court two weeks ago doing oral arguments.

We deposed members of the Trump administration under the Posse Comitatus framework that the U.S.

military cannot be deployed for domestic law enforcement purposes.

And Justice Breyer is about to adjudicate, have the first judgment, first opinion that will be published ever on the Posse Comitatas case that could have a real impact

on what Trump is doing all across the United States.

And so we're trying to assert ourselves in the courts, not just the court of public opinion, and push back against what he's doing.

But I said this literally months ago, that LA is a preview of things to come.

D.C.

is a preview of things to come in every major city across this country.

What do you do if you're a government?

You can't keep them out, correct?

You couldn't the troops into California.

No, we just have the legal authority to at least fight it out in the courts.

And we hope the rule of law and the constitutional provisions that we've enjoyed and, frankly, often taken for granted for 249 years

ultimately win the day.

But yeah, you're right.

I mean, he has the legal right to federalize troops.

He doesn't have the legal right, however, to militarize our seat for streets for domestic law enforcement.

And that is crystal clear under the Posse Comitatus Act.

And those limits are very, very clear.

And it's a question of whether or not ultimately the United States Supreme Court will agree with that.

And

that's an open-ended question, sadly.

Can those mayors in Chicago, Baltimore, and New York keep them out?

They can't legally

unless the courts intervene.

And the courts need to intervene or Congress needs to do their job.

Obviously, we've already established that.

But can I say this just on the topic?

Sure.

Democrats need to be careful about this.

You know, you're in San Francisco, and just a reminder, full disclosure, and this may offend some people.

Two years ago, I deployed the California Highway Patrol and the National Guard under state authority in partnership with city leaders and state leaders, and also engaged the federal government, the FBI, with the Biden administration.

in terms of federal law enforcement, state and local law enforcement actions to address some of the fentanyl and drug issues in San Francisco.

We then did a similar model in Oakland, California, and we've now rolled that out in many different parts of the state.

It is in stark contrast, obviously, to what Trump is doing.

He's doing it to people, not with any of us.

But the issue of crime, quality of life is something Democrats need to recognize that we need to reconcile and we need to be accountable for all of us.

And

this is not a permission slip for the way Trump is doing things, quite the contrary.

But it is an acknowledgement that he's hitting on an issue that is an issue across this country in red states, eight of the top 10 murder states, red states, in red states with blue cities.

It doesn't matter.

It's not a political issue.

It's about issues of crime and violence and quality life that universally all Americans want us to address.

So how do you say, okay,

one of the things that a lot of people are telling me is

a lot of people do agree on some of the things and they always follow it, but not like this, right?

Like, whatever Trump's doing, the immigration stuff, I'm concerned about it, but not like this.

This is not how to fix it.

How do you message that?

Because a lot of the messaging is, as you just said, crime is heavier in Shreveport than it is in San Francisco, right?

And it's true, but people don't feel that.

Telling them it's 24%, it's down 24%, it's down this is not, you know, know i was talking to someone years ago in san francisco about the problems here and it's not as bad as of course fox depicted it which drove me crazy i was like it isn't but you also can't and you can't meet it by saying murder is down because it's like my car got broken into

and even even if it doesn't it's not the same obviously it is a way of life right it's a feeling of lack of safety how do you message that without messaging we don't want these troops here to help us clean it up well i think it's beyond even messaging you got to do the work.

I mean, that's why, you know, I hired an additional 1,000 CHP officers.

It's why we've deployed all across the state, not just in San Francisco, where we launched this two plus years ago.

It's why we changed a lot of the laws as it relates to organized retail theft.

In fact, I had one of the biggest takedowns of organized retail theft in California history recently, just in fact, recently, a couple of days ago, related to Home Depots using some of the new tools and laws that we passed.

Look, I think you have to be accountable to actually doing the work and then communicate that work and not in a responsive way, but in a proactive way.

And I think we were slow to do that, to be candid with you, after, you know, there were a few, just a handful.

of people promoting defund the police.

I certainly wasn't one of them, but Fox weaponized that.

The grievance machine was out there, Surround Sound 24-7, and we were slow to react to that and they shapeshifted that.

And we're sort of playing catch up, even though a lot of mayors and governors have been very proactive on policing and look we have the second hot lowest homicides in in you know recorded history in california we're down 10.4 percent again from double digit declines the prior year on crime but to your point we're not leading with that because no one no one cares about that if they feel differently and so i think we have to own that we have to flood the zone in terms of our alternative strategy and approach and then we have to communicate them every single day and again that's where he's so damn effective and there's an asymmetry to that because he's the president of the damn united States.

Is it working, these troop deployments?

Do you think it's working?

I don't think it's working.

I know it's had unbelievable.

Every single Tuesday in California, we announce, we call it, and forgive the vernacular, we call it Takedown Tuesdays.

In a transparent way, we've been updating the public on the arrests and going after stolen vehicles, back to car break-ins and issues related to quality of life and keeping people aware of what's going on.

But

it's hard because these things don't get attention like Trump's true social gets attention.

And so that's why I do agree with you back to the pivot and the previous point, pivot figuratively and literally in this case with you, that we also have to pivot back to a much more, dare I say, muscular, not from,

I know, muscular, but not through a gender frame,

muscular approach to communication, a little more smash mouth, dare I say, in terms of our ability to get the message out of what we're doing.

Or talk very clearly.

Someone like Zoran Mandanami is talking about costs, right?

Or something that they have.

How do you look at his communication skills, for example?

Because New York is in the crosshairs here, too, if he wins, especially.

Yeah, I mean, it does.

Sounds like Trump's been paying a lot of attention to him with his desire to socialize great American companies and continue to invest like he did with Intel and others.

But beyond that, no, I think it's unbelievably effective, his grassroots, his ability to utilize social media, meet people where they are, literally and

physically, meaning he's out in the streets, he's talking to real people,

and he's been able to connect with folks in a very visceral way.

And so there's back to this notion, success leaves clues.

And there's a lot of successful campaigning

ideas that he's advanced.

The question is governing.

And governing is a radically different thing than campaigning and communicating.

But the hostility to him is quite high, correct?

Of course.

Of course, because of some of his, well, for obvious reasons, some of his views.

And there's a lot of anxiety around those views um and they could be on issues related to domestic policy as it relates to uh you know socializing um you know grocery stores etc or could be on national policy intel in trump intel the comparison is very obvious that you just made yeah no i correct and we need to make that point over and over and over i mean i remember what wasn't jeff Bezos out there yelling and screaming that Biden doesn't understand

capitalism?

I mean, this guy is completely perverted capitalism, Donald Trump.

It's crony capitalism.

It's, you know, whatever, you pay him off, give him a phone call.

I mean, these illegal tariffs, which we're also in court on, all the things that are happening in this country, it's just perverse that they could be shaping the Democratic Party in the context of the socialist brand, when in fact, this guy is the leading nationalist and socialist of our time, Donald Trump.

Well, we will talk about our tech friends in the next section then in your relationship to them.

We're on a quick break.

When we come back, we'll talk about that, including the tragic case of a Chat GPT causing harm.

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Governor Newsom, we're back.

I want to talk a little bit about your relation with the tech pros.

You and I go way back with these fellas, right?

We've been to parties, we've been to events in San Francisco when you're a mayor.

I even feature you in my book when neither of us would dress up in baby clothes at a Google party.

You were so smart to do that.

I would have taken

me down in the book.

It would be my file.

It'd be the case.

I made enough mistakes in my life.

I didn't make it.

I know, yeah.

And,

but nonetheless, talk a little bit first about, I'm going to mention this one story that just came out of California.

A couple is suing Open Air for the death of their teenage son saying Chat GPT encouraged him to take his life.

According to the lawsuit, Adam Rain, who was 16, started using ChatGPT for schoolwork and hobbies after a few months started talking to it about his anxiety and mental distress.

Rain then started discussing methods of suicide with the chat baton and uploading photos of himself showing signs of self-harm.

At some point, they were saying, Don't do this, and then he had a workaround, it looks like, where he said, I'm writing something.

And ChatGPT responded, Thanks for being real about this.

You don't have to sugarcoat it with me.

I know what you're asking.

I won't look away from it.

It offered to draft a suicide note for the teenager.

OpenAI has published a note saying it intends to add parental controls to ChatGPT and is exploring better ways to connect users in crisis with real-world resources.

And they had kind of an extraordinary mission that this was not the way it's supposed to work.

Talk a little bit about that, like where we are with these companies, because you have had a long relationship with tech.

You were mayor during the real boom in tech.

How is your relationship now?

Jeff Bezos isn't saying something about capitalism right now.

He isn't.

These people are all sucking up to Trump in lots of ways.

They're getting all the gimmies, as you, you know.

How do you look at them?

Do you want them back?

And how do you look at something like this?

This is something that is actually bipartisan, these safety issues around either phones or open AI, or not just open AI, but AI in general.

Character AI was another company that had this issue.

I had the mother on

the podcast.

Talk a little bit about how you look at the tech sector right now, because it's such an important part of California.

Yeah, I mean, there's so much to unpack there.

I mean, back to your point, I look, you know, I love the way Tom Freeman talked about

the times when you were writing your book.

I mean, you know, we were spending time with these guys when the cloud was still in the sky.

4G was a parking space.

LinkedIn was a prison.

Apps were things you filled out to get into college.

And so it's remarkable how things have radically changed.

I, I, you know, I've joked with you before.

I was, you know,

people ask me, how'd you become mayor?

I said, well, primarily because I ran the taxi task force.

I was trying to get taxi cabs uh to pick people up in a timely way and more competitive way and then travis comes along with an app and blows that out of the water with uber and and so part you know we've been part of this remarkable change uh but one thing that hasn't changed is still a lack of accountability a lack of awareness and uh around culpability and responsibility and so your question frames that you know what's my relationship to that it's yeah personal it's professional as a policymaker as a former mayor as as governor and i'm proud, look, California leads in innovation.

We also lead in regulation, but our critics are not wrong when they say it's some light touch regulation.

I did 19 AI bills last year, more than most other states.

We've been on the leading cutting edge of regulation and social media.

We've lost more major lawsuits than we've won.

We were just deposed a few weeks ago with another major lawsuit as it relates to child privacy issues.

We created a privacy council in the state, independent of the state itself, meaning it was voted on by the people.

And we're trying right now to address the issue of frontier models and address a response to a bill that I thought over-regulated last year, a bill by the common numeric of 1047, where I got an independent group, not politicians, but experts, Fei Fei Lee and others, the godmother of AI, academics from Stanford, Berkeley, and elsewhere, to come up with a report to guide us on a legislative legislative path this year, which we're working on in real time.

So we're trying to find that balance.

We're trying to be accountable.

At the same time, we are trying to maintain our entrepreneurial and innovative ecosystem and not over-regulate and stifle that at the same time.

But here they are.

They've turned on you all.

They, I mean, they put, I would agree the Ben administration was far too censorious to them in some ways.

That said, they took tail and ran for the for the Trump campaign.

How do you get that back?

And without seeming like a, you know, put, letting them do whatever they want?

Well, I mean,

you know all these folks.

I know them personally as well.

And we have private conversations, either directly or indirectly.

And obviously we battle out in court and battle out with legislation.

And we're on different sides of many of these issues.

But look, bottom line, it's fear and greed.

just is it's both and fear and greed and and to your point about biden it's interesting you know we we did the first ai executive order did one of the first crypto executive orders and then the did the first ai executive order but we did it hand in glove with the biden administration that was thrown out immediately and then these guys wanted to preempt any statewide legislation for 10 years so you know this there's no moral equity if there's any hope for a real regulatory framework it's going to be the democratic party um trying to to to find that that that that sweet spot again around innovation entrepreneurialism truth and trust, and not over-regulating at the same time, being accountable to the tragic example that you just advanced.

I got four kids, so that hits me very differently, like it does for you as a mother

with what's going on with social media.

And so that's, that's, this is a constant iteration.

I have over two dozen bills that we're working on right now to substantively, Kara, answer your question as it relates to our responsibility and relationship to this moment.

What about your relationship with the tech industry?

You, you know,

I would say you were relatively friendly.

So was Kamala Hara.

So, I mean, any California politician has to have relationships within the tech industry.

Well, I thought we were, I was very frustrated to be candid with you very privately and, you know,

around the unwillingness to gauge in, you know, the whole crypto blockchain space.

I felt they turned their back a little bit.

And I thought we paid a huge political price for that.

A lot of organizations come together.

And we, so we got work to do to pull that back, number one.

And on the issue, look, it was a classic pendulum swing for some that thought they overcorrected during COVID.

And there was a concern around censorship and sort of big tech, big brother in relationship to

big government.

And now the light touch, that pendulum's back in the other direction.

And so I think trying to find that back.

And look, it's, you're right.

It, you know, these personal relationships have been challenged because you see all these guys that you know and worked with and you knew them before, you know, back in the day when.

Right.

And there they are, all standing up there going like this to the dear leader during the inaugural.

I think the golden statute, Tim Cook, thing was my like, oh, good God.

Not easy.

I mean, look,

Intel giving up 10% of its, what the hell is going on?

NVIDIA saying 15% tithing to, you know, so a lot of California companies in that mix.

And breaks my heart.

And so, so, again, back to fear and just, you know, I guess they would say they're fiduciary responsibilities.

Others would suggest greed.

What would be your message to tech, say, if you were running for something like president?

Look, I think two things.

They matter.

And we should care because they're shapeshifting this economy.

They're shapeshifting the future.

So we have to care because they do matter.

And it's foundational.

We're 32 of the top 50 AI companies.

By the way, that's an old stat.

I think it's even more of market share, right?

They're all here.

They're all here.

They're all moving back from Florida and Texas.

Grass is not always greener.

So we have a unique responsibility to your point, but we also have a unique ecosystem that defines the best of, you know, we're the 10 pole of the U.S.

economy for a reason.

And it's that ecosystem that's built up for decades.

Of course, Trump's trying to completely wreck that as it relates to institutions of higher learning, research and development, NIH, NSF grants.

Obviously, the $1 billion extortion payment that he wants from UCLA.

We've watched the capitulation of these institutions that allegedly cultivate independent thought, selling their souls.

And Harvard appears to be the next one.

Obviously, Columbia.

I know Brown is lauded for

their $50 million contribution and tithing to the Trump whims.

But it's pretty...

pretty alarming what this guy is doing to the economy and to the ecosystem and the fact that tech

is still indulging them as they're watching the reason that they exist as an industry and persist in terms of being the biggest beneficiaries of the research and development, the biggest beneficiaries of the NIH, the biggest beneficiaries of the NSF,

is remarkable to me.

And so in that relationship, I remind them of this, try to highlight this, try to maintain a cordial relationship.

But at the same time, it doesn't mean we're backing away from these lawsuits.

And it doesn't mean we're backing away from passing laws.

All right, Governor, one more quick break.

We'll be back for predictions.

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Okay, Governor, it's time for predictions.

First, though, I'd like you to make a specific prediction.

New York Mayor Eric Adams was mocking Zoran Mandanu last week for his bench pressing prowess.

Mandani seems to be struggling in a viral video.

If you were bench pressing contests against Scott Galloway, who would you predict win?

No, I'm not.

You think I'm naive?

Galloway would run away with that guy.

And by the way, he may be out there training this last month.

You don't even know what he's been up to.

You think you know what he's up to.

Don't get under a bench press.

If you're running for president, don't do it.

Because look how Pete Hugseth looked trying to do one single pull-up.

I can do two.

That was sad.

I hate mocking people's physical things, but you kind of have to since he kind of put it up.

And you kind of have to swing at that one, I guess.

You got to swing at that one.

But no, yeah.

So I'm cautious in that respect.

Then again, I do like all the untouched memes of me on the back of Barry.

Yes, I know.

I'm sure you do.

But let me hear from your prediction.

Any other predictions?

My predict is in the sort of meme market.

By the way, I spent an hour and a half with Trump in the Oval Office a few months ago,

back when we were working together, if there's such a thing.

And he starts telling me, he goes, he didn't even realize.

He goes, he goes, hey, Gavin, did this.

this coin.

He goes, you know, it's not even a coin.

It's not even a coin.

I said, that's amazing, Mr.

President.

He goes, he goes, and then he went on to say how much money he just made.

He got a check from, you know, that was just sent over.

And then he mentioned Melania and the whole thing.

Melania coins.

And her coin and her meme coin.

So anyway, my prediction is, you know, I just put this on the prediction market.

When we put out the Trump corruption coin,

I think it's going to outperform

Trump's coins.

That's my prediction.

That's my prediction.

All right.

Okay.

Well, you're done.

I'm very excited.

What's the picture on it?

You, right?

No, it's not me.

I'm not expensive.

It's not Trump corruption.

I'm not putting it.

I was was going to do a smelt coin, but no one seemed to fully understand that, which I thought was a much more insightful and perhaps

more, it could be more successful.

I still may do one.

I don't know.

After the perfume, I don't know about what, you know, perfect sense, but what would be the name of your perfume?

I don't know.

I have to, I have to, we have, maybe we can crowdsource it, sort of a little old school 2000 social media here, a little crowdsource.

Anyway, I really appreciate this, Governor Newsom.

I really do.

I like our back and forth because I think one of the things that's helpful is when people actually can debate.

And the aggression is just what's needed, in my opinion.

And I'm paying you a compliment that won't last.

Well, you're, as they say in San Francisco, where you're back home,

as we described the Grateful Dead, and you described Jerry Garcia, only a former mayor of California or San Francisco can say this.

You say he described in many ways, you, as Bill Graham was describing, the Grateful Dead.

You don't want to be the best of the best.

You want to be the only one that does what you do.

And that is,

oh my God, you're kissing up me.

I'm just saying.

All I want to do is you win the presidency.

As I told you before, I'm coming to the Lincoln bedroom.

So get fucking ready.

And by the way, he's apparently remodeled the Lincoln bedroom just like he's remodeling the ballroom.

And don't think you, by the way, who spends hundreds of millions of dollars remodeling a home?

Thank you.

Thank you.

Because you're running for president, right?

I have to get to the Lincoln bedroom.

I mean, you've

just a yes.

You have some other suitors.

I'm well aware.

I'm well aware.

Okay, in any case, that handsome Westmore.

There can be two handsome people.

No, there's no.

We want to hear from you.

Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind.

Go to nymag.com/slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 85551-Pivot.

Okay, that's the show.

Thanks for listening to Pivot.

Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel, which is growing by leaps and bounds.

We'll be back next week with a triumphant return of Scott Galloway.

Governor Newsom, you kept it up.

You kept up

the Scott Galloway banner.

And he used to come back shirtless.

I want to see.

I think the guy.

Don't say that.

Don't say that.

I want to see it.

He's going to take his shirt off.

He does it all the time.

Scott, I literally look forward to seeing it.

I want to see the pecs.

That's creepy.

It is kind of creepy, but

I am the only person who has to look at men's chests all the time.

By the way,

that's why I signed up.

He is.

He is a unique character.

You should, well, anyway, I've said enough on this topic.

I'm already joking.

I didn't say I should marry him.

No, I didn't say that.

You guys already talked about your love for each other.

We've already described that's been well, well discussed on this podcast.

Yes, but you know what?

I like to step out on him now and then.

Anyway, this has been a great step out.

I will read us thank you again, Governor Newsom.

Today's show was produced by Larry Naiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver.

Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode.

Jim Mackle edited the video.

Nashad Kurwa is Fox Media's executive producer of podcasts.

Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/slash pod.

We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

I am so looking forward to Gavin Perfume.

Take care.

Mike and Alyssa are always trying to outdo each other.

When Alyssa got a small water bottle, Mike showed up with a four-liter jug.

When Mike started gardening, Alyssa started beekeeping.

Oh, come on.

They called a truce for their holiday and used Expedia Trip Planner to collaborate on all the details of their trip.

Once there, Mike still did more laps around the pool.

Whatever.

You were made to outdo your holidays.

We were made to help organize the competition.

Expedia, made to travel.

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