On with Kara Swisher: Why Ben Stiller Made Severance

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Speaker 4 Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.
I'm Kara Swisher.

Speaker 4 We're off for the holiday, but we're bringing you a great episode of my other podcast, On with Kara Swisher, my recent interview with Ben Stiller, whom Scott and I adore.

Speaker 4 Ben is the executive producer and go-to director of one of my favorite shows, Severance. We talk about all things inny and outie, and Ben also shares his thoughts about being an Elon Musk target.

Speaker 4 Enjoy the episode. Scott and I will be back on Friday.
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Speaker 4 Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher.

Speaker 4 Today, I'm talking to actor, director, and producer Ben Stiller, someone I've gotten to know over the past few years and really enjoy talking to.

Speaker 4 I really enjoy the second season of his hit series, Severance, and it's finally arrived after almost three years. I liked the first season, but the second season has really taken it to a new level.

Speaker 4 This is Apple TV's dystopian workplace comedy thriller about a company that's taken work-life balance to the extreme.

Speaker 4 In the world of Severance, employees at the company called Lumen can choose to sever their brains into two selves, one for work and one for living.

Speaker 4 When they clock in at 9 a.m., their brain is wiped clean of the outside world. And when they clock out at 5 p.m., it's wiped clean of work.
I just love this show.

Speaker 4 I can't explain why you have to watch it. It's about a lot of things that are going on today, but it's a lot of things that have gone on for a while.
And it's about who you are and the unconscious.

Speaker 4 And it's also very, very funny, which is the best part of it.

Speaker 4 Ben is the show's executive producer and he's directed many of the episodes.

Speaker 4 So we're going to get into the themes, big ideas, and creative choices that have gone into the series, which is written by a man named Dan Erickson.

Speaker 4 It's his first outing, and what an impressive outing it is. Severance is also a success for Apple TV.
It's reportedly generated $200 million for the streamer.

Speaker 4 We'll talk about his experience working with the tech giant, get his views on how tech money is impacting Hollywood, and how Trump's return could affect the ability of artists to get their stories made.

Speaker 4 On that note, our expert question this week comes from Bloomberg reporter Lucas Shaw, who writes a weekly newsletter called Screen Time about the collision of Hollywood and Silicon Valley.

Speaker 4 So stick around.

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Speaker 7 Billionaires are everywhere. Just this week, The Guardian reported that Gen Z's hottest job is nannying for billionaires.

Speaker 7 President Trump pardoned a British billionaire who was convicted of fraud so he can visit his grandbabies in America.

Speaker 7 A billionaire investor threatened on CNBC to leave New York because housing is too expensive.

Speaker 2 It's super expensive.

Speaker 7 Because of

Speaker 7 the unions.

Speaker 2 Other developers have tried to cut deals with the unions, but they rule New York.

Speaker 7 Then he said, Mamdani's gonna turn New York into Mumbai. These stories are annoying.
We are annoyed with billionaires, but we can't escape them. Or can we?

Speaker 7 Coming up on today explains the movement to abolish billionaires.

Speaker 2 No hate, but yeah, give your money away, shorties. Love you guys.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 4 Ben S., welcome and thanks for being on on.

Speaker 2 Hi, Kara S.

Speaker 4 Hi, Kara S. That's right.
That's obviously a severance reference for people who don't know. This show is about a world in which you can become a different person during working hours.

Speaker 4 A person is called your innie, and it is you, but your brain wiped of all the details of your Audi life.

Speaker 4 So the innie is you, but not really you. It's without a lot of information or background.

Speaker 4 I'm just curious, have you ever thought about what your innie would be like?

Speaker 2 You know, recently I've been thinking about it actually, but I think, you know, the innies are more innocent. They're less corrupted by life experience.

Speaker 2 And so I guess my innie would be like a little bit more,

Speaker 2 you know, fun-loving, innocent,

Speaker 2 playful. Though I think I am still playful in certain situations,

Speaker 2 but I do feel like I'd probably be maybe like a little less sort of like hunched and like stressed, you know?

Speaker 4 Well, you know, it's interesting because some people's innies are not like on the show. Like Helly's is quite angry, right? She's an instantly angry and her Audi is also angry in a different way.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, I think Helly is, you know, she's rebellious and curious and not a rule follower.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 yeah, she's got a lot of,

Speaker 2 you know, it's like, I don't know if it's necessarily anger as much as, you know, sort of like this questioning of authority and not taking things, you know, at face value and accepting them just because they tell us we should accept them.

Speaker 4 Right. So you wonder where that comes from, right?

Speaker 4 Because a lot of them do, and then they suddenly get rebellious pretty quickly, all of them by reading books or going down the hall to see a potential boyfriend or whatever.

Speaker 4 They lose their, they become Audis pretty quickly, I would say.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, we looked at it sort of like the first season was these, these Audis were sort of, you know, kids. You know, they're pretty young.

Speaker 2 They're only like two, you know, Mark's only probably like two years old and Irving's maybe was there, you know, a few more years, but they're kind of innocent and childlike to a certain extent, but also have developed personalities.

Speaker 2 And then as the season evolved and as the second season is starting to evolve, I think they're kind of becoming more adolescents and more, you know, kind of,

Speaker 2 yeah, self-empowered and questioning authority. And so I think there's like a maturation that's happening with them slowly.

Speaker 4 Right. And a cynicism that goes with it because they're beginning to see things.
So

Speaker 4 would you ever do get severed? I'm just curious. I was thinking, I was talking about with my wife, Amanda, like, would you let it happen?

Speaker 4 She said it would be impossible to sever me because I'd be the same irritating person.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 I don't know if I'd want to be totally cut off from part of my life experience.

Speaker 2 I think in retrospect, when I look back at, you know, painful situations I've been in in or things that have happened in life that didn't feel good, I could imagine not wanting to go through that pain.

Speaker 2 But I also think that one of the ideas of the show is this questioning of

Speaker 2 what can you actually cut off, right? Because we all have to deal with

Speaker 2 everything on some level. And I think it's also what I was really attracted to when I first read the script, too, is there's so many different ideas of what severance could be a metaphor for.

Speaker 2 And I think we all do sever to a certain extent when we you know, check out, if you have a drink or, you know, you take a gummy or you, you know, watch a TV show or if you go on your phone.

Speaker 2 I mean, we all find ways to cope with the everyday sort of, you know, torrent of stuff that's coming at us in life.

Speaker 4 Right. It's also, I go to hardware stores and browse.

Speaker 4 I do.

Speaker 2 I love them.

Speaker 4 So to be clear, you're not the writer of Severance, but your executive producer sort of directed quite a lot of the episodes.

Speaker 4 But you have been the driver of it, it feels like. You were supposed to star in it and you said you prefer to either direct or act, but not both.

Speaker 4 So what attracted you to it and the writer, Dan Erickson?

Speaker 2 Well, honestly, you know, the script came into our production company and it was a spec script, a script sent to see a writing sample.

Speaker 2 And Jackie Cohn, who worked at her company at the time, read it and she gave it to me and I read it. And I was like, this is great.
It's a great writing sample. And also, is anybody doing this show?

Speaker 2 It was so unique.

Speaker 2 the tone of the dialogue it reminded me of shows that i'd seen before but it felt like its own thing i i was one of the you know ideas bandied about to be in it but really the second i read it i was like this is adam scott and um and i felt just a desire to make it and sometimes it's hard to actually analyze what it is that draws you to something because sometimes I think it's something subconscious you don't necessarily know, but you have a feeling for it.

Speaker 2 And I've tried to listen to that over the years in terms of just, you know, kind of going with my gut feeling about something and not even knowing what it is. I just thought it was good.

Speaker 2 I thought I wanted to see it. I thought I could see it in my head and wanted to, you know, wanted to make it happen.
So that was it.

Speaker 4 What was the thing about it? Because if it reminded you, by the way, you are the voice of Kir Egan, right?

Speaker 2 The culture. I am the voice of Keir Egan in the,

Speaker 2 in, I guess it's episode

Speaker 2 when you hit 100 and you got like the little video of kira on the mountaintop so it's not actually it's an actor playing kir because we actually have the voice of the real kira egan that mark geller portrays when you see and he's who kirigan is when you see him i mean i think it was the mix of humor and weirdness and the basic and the tone of the humor, which related to me to a lot of comedies that I loved, the office banter, this feeling of sort of like this weird sort of like the movie Office Space or Parks and Rec or the office you know that sort of genre of um office workplace comedy yeah where it's like a lot of the humor is based in sort of everyday stuff but then there was this other layer to it which is these people don't know who they are where they are what they're doing why they're doing it yeah right i mean it's sort of like you put mary tyler moore in a in a an absurdist sartre play or something a little bit of no exit i guess because it's it's it's also a lot of friends of mine they're like oh i don't want to watch it it's too scary it's a thriller I'm like, no, it's a comedy.

Speaker 4 But it's also sci-fi. It's romantic.
It's dystopian. It's absurd.
You've called it a workplace comedy. Is there,

Speaker 2 there's a lot of things.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 I feel like it's rooted in the workplace comedy genre. And then it also has these aspects of, you know, thriller, but also like 70s sort of, you know, style thrillers.

Speaker 2 And then also the weird kind of Twilight Zone vibe to it also. And I, I mean, to me, that was what was exciting was it's a combination of all these different things.

Speaker 2 And when you see something like that, where you haven't seen it before, but in some way it triggers, you know, these ideas for you, it makes you want to lean into it.

Speaker 2 And so Dan had never had anything produced before, ever before. And so I had obviously worked for a long time.

Speaker 2 So I, you know, he and I sort of partnered up and it's always been his vision, but I think we really collaborated a lot in terms of the, you know, just the feeling and the vibe of it and the direction of the story as we looked at, you know, building it out from this pilot that he'd written.

Speaker 4 It also has a, I know it's, I don't know how old this guy is, but do you remember the one of the last Planet of the Apes, like beyond the planet, not beyond, when they're sort of in Century City, a planet of the apes?

Speaker 2 Yeah, that might be Battle or Conquest. Battle, Conquest.
I don't know.

Speaker 4 It had that really cheap feel, but also, you know what I mean, in those weird places.

Speaker 2 Well, these are formative movies for me, the Planet of the Apes movies.

Speaker 2 I went to the Lowe's 84th Street cinema and watched the Battle, the Planet of the Apes, you know, marathon, where they go from Planet of the Apes all the way through conquest or whatever.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, that's deeply rooted in my, you know, my DNA of like just things that I love to watch.

Speaker 4 Or Omega Man.

Speaker 2 It had a little bit of Omega Man, for sure. Yeah, we're all Charlton Heston.

Speaker 2 Yeah, a little bit of Logan's runnish. Logan's runnish.

Speaker 4 So, but there's also a sense in the moment right now that big tech controls us, but this is about big corporations controlling us, which is not an uncommon trope.

Speaker 4 There's been a million movies of that.

Speaker 4 In this case, it's with cooperation, though not full disclosure, which is what tech is like right now in a lot of ways.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, technically Lumen is sort of a med tech company, you know, and they, and they go back to the 1860s and 70s when Kier Egan founded it.

Speaker 2 And, you know, it kind of is really, you know,

Speaker 2 one of those companies that does a lot of things and you shouldn't quite know everything that they do. And obviously the severed workers have no idea what they do there.

Speaker 2 And I always think that's interesting when you see the characters having to talk, especially for Mark in the first season when he just talks about, you know, supposedly I'm a corporate archivist or something like that.

Speaker 2 He doesn't have any idea what he's up to.

Speaker 2 And I think that idea of people who are working for giant corporations with a tech or whatever, you know, who actually, you know, knows what they're really working towards. I don't know.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I don't know about that world that much, but it seems to me.

Speaker 4 Well, it's a maximalization of what is work even for, right? Like, what's the idea of what works even for when you're just a cog in a larger picture of it?

Speaker 2 Yeah. And I think that goes just back to human nature.
It's like we all want to work. We all want to have something to do with our lives.

Speaker 2 And then there are certain people who, you know, have ideas of doing things that are, you know, who knows what they want to do. I mean, you could pick any tech billionaire.

Speaker 2 You know, what are their, you know, what are their goals and their aims?

Speaker 2 But ultimately, we're all just people who want to work and be happy and

Speaker 2 fill our time with something that we think is meaningful. And it can be really distressing when you're doing that in something you think is

Speaker 2 good or meaningful to you. But then the overall goal of this corporation you're working for might be totally nefarious.

Speaker 4 Yeah, the goal of the billionaires, tech billionaires is fascism, as it turned out.

Speaker 2 And greed, right? It's all about greed. Well, power.

Speaker 2 Power. Power

Speaker 4 is where it is. Or they know better and they will tell us what to do.
And that's what this corporate Lumen is like that, too. We know we care, but then they don't actually care in any way.

Speaker 4 So there's a lot about the unconscious as a model of knowing separating you from doing severed, but not entirely severed, since a lot of it creeps into the consciousness, like

Speaker 4 the happiness he has in one world and deep unhappiness the others and the idea that it would seep into it.

Speaker 4 What does that mean to have two senses of knowing? And how does it impact directing the actors? Because the actors obviously have to be two different people when you're doing it.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, to me, again, it's one of the really interesting aspects of the premise of the show is how much of a person can be cut off from, I guess, you know, this, if it's your brain, if it's your mind, if, you know, there are technologies that are approaching trying to do something like this.

Speaker 2 But what is it that can cross over if you don't remember anything about your life? What are the innate human desires or characteristics that make you a person?

Speaker 2 And so that's, you know, that's constantly what we're looking at and asking in the show. And for the actors, it's great because that's a question they can ask in literally every scene.

Speaker 2 They can, you know, wonder about, well, how much of this is coming through?

Speaker 2 You know, my feeling for, you know, Dylan and Irving, if they're having a conversation, how much of Dylan's Audi life is coming through for Dylan, even if it's not what the scene is about?

Speaker 2 Or, you know, for Adam Scott playing Mark, he's constantly going back and forth between that. And I think,

Speaker 2 you know, that's to me what's really interesting about the show, too, is finding those

Speaker 2 places where something transcends the severance barrier, an emotion or a feeling.

Speaker 2 There's a time in episode, I think it's like, I forget which episode, it's season one, where Dylan says basically, you know, do you think does love transcend the severance barrier?

Speaker 2 And, you know, that's the question.

Speaker 2 You know, what transcends? And what when we, when we suppress feelings, how much can you, you know, really keep out of what you're experiencing?

Speaker 2 I mean, it goes to the questions of post-traumatic stress disorder,

Speaker 2 suppressed memories, repressed memories, all those things.

Speaker 4 Years ago, I had a friend who was in one of those psychiatric things where they did therapy every day for hours and hours and was trying to find out all about themselves and figuring out where suppressed memories was.

Speaker 4 And they said, have you ever been to therapy? I said, never. I just, I don't want to know that much about myself.
Like something like that.

Speaker 4 I said something offhand, which is probably rude to someone who's in intense therapy. And they said to me,

Speaker 4 and they were a pretty unhappy person, I would say. And they said to me, you're blocking.
And I said, it's working

Speaker 4 because I'm happy and you're not, like,

Speaker 4 which was kind of an interesting moment.

Speaker 4 And I thought about it watching this. I thought it'd be really interesting to watch this if you were a therapist of some sort, too.
Like, what, what, how do you look at this?

Speaker 4 Because everything's about the conscious and unconscious and what bleeds into each other.

Speaker 2 I mean, as a person, I've been in therapy.

Speaker 2 and I've talked a lot.

Speaker 2 And, you know, that question of how much talking about

Speaker 2 your past or talking about memories and issues, you know, there's questions about that, how much that really can help, right? You know, and alternate therapies that are much more, you know,

Speaker 2 in the body and actually, you know, not really just about analyzing. And I think that to me resonates because I feel like a lot of this stuff is

Speaker 2 internal. And there's even, you know, questions about generational trauma, you know, that people talk about now.

Speaker 2 And really, it's really interesting because, you know, you think about like what is cellularly in our bodies that we carry with us.

Speaker 4 Yeah, well, except in this case, they use an advanced piece of technology to create this ever, right? To create the suppressing of the unconscious or the conscious. But

Speaker 4 even though it's an advanced technology that's happening here, it seems like everyone in the show is living in the 70s, as you talked about. It's a retro set.

Speaker 4 The costumes feel older on certain, on all of them, really. Talk a little bit about that, why you wanted the look and feel.

Speaker 4 There's also a lot of doubling and duality, which was there's people walking together in twos or in it's a theme of two characters playing two different people.

Speaker 4 Talk a little bit about that, the look and feel of why you had the retro set and also the duality that's happening visually.

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, in terms of the Audi world and the indie world too, what I thought that Dan had written written in the pilot was a very sort of generic kind of world.

Speaker 2 And I think he was commenting on that, I think, in a way in terms of like what working for a big corporation can kind of turn you into.

Speaker 2 And that sort of blandness, that corporate blandness, I felt we should mirror in the outside world.

Speaker 2 And I didn't want to have any actual reference points like, you know, like CNN or, you know, brand names or things, you know, when you saw the news, just, you know, and that, that was sort of the idea was like, we don't quite know where or when this is.

Speaker 2 It's kind of now, but we don't want to have

Speaker 2 any sort of touchstones or, and even in the technology.

Speaker 2 And look, I, you know, grew up in the 70s, and I do feel like ever since cell phones and smartphones were invented, it's really changed our lives, obviously, but also storytelling because so many things that you'd have to do before that you tell a story would you'd have to go and do research or whatever.

Speaker 2 Now you just get on your phone. It's not very cinematic.

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 2 You know, and that's why I like a prison story too. Inside of a prison, you don't have access to that technology.
Prisoners aren't allowed. So, and in a way, severance is a little bit of a

Speaker 2 prison aspect too.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's got the Stanford prison experiment vibe to it.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And I think,

Speaker 2 you know, that world

Speaker 2 should be as kind of interesting and off and and generic in its own way as the any world, the outie world. And so that's kind of why we sort of gravitated towards that.
And

Speaker 2 so the duality aspect, though, is just inherent in the theme.

Speaker 2 So just that's a natural sort of, you know, tendency for us then to look for in the imagery that, because it just, it's just telling the story in a way, and it lends itself to that.

Speaker 2 So, you know, I think that's part of just the sort of visual world of the show. And I think when you have a a clear theme and you have an idea that's really

Speaker 2 specific, you know, you want to stick with that theme and let that, everything build off of that. So it feels organic and not forced, hopefully.

Speaker 2 You know, and that's what I think the great thing about this idea is that it allows for that.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I went back and looked at the movements and it's all duality.

Speaker 4 It's really interesting, but it also has a level of suspense since there is what the viewer knows and what two different people know.

Speaker 4 And then the pervasive sense of withholding information in a total surveillance environment, right?

Speaker 4 There's a lot of misinformation happening here in this environment, largely by the Lumen executives who are not severed, by the way, who know both sides.

Speaker 2 Right. And we are constantly

Speaker 2 dealing with that. question all the time, the question of how much Lumen knows, how much they're listening to, how much they're seeing, you know, within the severed world.

Speaker 2 I think there's always a question of how much they're letting happen, how much they know is happening, how sometimes the technology isn't quite great there.

Speaker 2 So there's like, you know, there are places they can find, like, you know, like a closet or something like that.

Speaker 2 And, um, you know, that's like a specific aspect of the reality of the show that, you know, maybe if we were doing this as a modern-day show, everybody would be like, oh, wait, well, there's no way you could do that because they would have microphones everywhere.

Speaker 2 But I think there's something to the sort of clunky nature of this corporation, too, that is kind of fun. And,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 we don't have any, there's one security person in the first season, Grainer.

Speaker 2 But early on, we had experimented and thought about having security guards on the floor.

Speaker 2 And anytime we ever brought security guards in, it always felt to me like it turned into like a Star Trek episode or something. It just, there was something about it.

Speaker 2 And we realized, oh, well, like the more we don't tell, the more we don't show.

Speaker 2 the more the audience has a chance to fill it in themselves. And that's always been, for me, a little bit of the question as I put the show out into the world.

Speaker 2 When we were making it the first season, we'd made all, you know, nine episodes and nobody had seen it.

Speaker 2 It's like, oh, I hope people will buy this conceit because, you know, it's, you have to buy into it.

Speaker 2 But it's there because I feel like those aren't the questions as much that I'm as interested in as opposed to the sort of greater themes of the show.

Speaker 4 Right, absolutely. I mean, it's also a return to work story, which is sort of in the news right now, this idea of return to work.

Speaker 4 Did you understand that at the time?

Speaker 4 You had a COVID period in here when you were making it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, not at all. I mean, yeah, the first season we made starting right when COVID started, and we were delayed actually six months in production because of it.

Speaker 2 And so when the show was finished and people were starting to go back to work and some writer wrote about it as like, oh, this is like one of the first return to work shows.

Speaker 2 It was purely, you know, that's just happenstance.

Speaker 2 So it was just, I think, the timing of how, you know, the show came out.

Speaker 2 And it seemed like both the aspect of being sort of severed from everybody else in the world, you know, as we were, and that weirdness, even making the show where the actors were, you know, we were first season, everybody was in full PPE and

Speaker 2 face masks. Yeah, I don't remember any of that.
I don't remember anything.

Speaker 4 Blocking, it's working.

Speaker 2 Someone's like, do you remember that?

Speaker 4 I'm like, I don't.

Speaker 2 Do you know that Trump was president before?

Speaker 4 I don't remember that. It's not going very well right now.

Speaker 4 We'll get get to that in a minute um but no blocking it's working um i want to get into the business of this in a second but do you have a character you particularly vibe with on the show um

Speaker 2 i mean i really enjoy all the characters equally i like them uh adam is the key i think because you know he's the protagonist but um

Speaker 4 Mitchick, that guy.

Speaker 2 Milchik, yeah. Milchik.

Speaker 2 Well, Milchik is, yeah. I mean, I'm excited for this season with Milchik, too,

Speaker 2 just because I feel like, you know, he's an enigma and he can be scary. And, but there's so many different aspects to who he is that, you know, make him, you know, a really fascinating character.

Speaker 2 And, you know, everybody works for this corporation. So at the end of the day, there's a chain of command.
And I think that's something that's interesting.

Speaker 2 to us in the show is sort of like how even if it's this weird kind of world or these maybe possibly you know scary characters that work at the company, they're also looking.

Speaker 2 And so they have to deal with all of the office politics, too.

Speaker 4 The Defiant Jazz scene was my favorite in the entire, when they were dancing. So awkward.
I've been at that party. I've been at that office party where they have

Speaker 4 a cake in the office.

Speaker 2 They do pineapples here. Yeah, they, they, the pineapple fruit plate as a way of luring people back.
You know, it's like sort of like, you know, the shitty little, you know, perks that you get

Speaker 2 that, you know, in contrast to what these people have experienced, that that's huge for them. I mean, though they are trying it in season two on the Audis, but

Speaker 2 it's funny to me that when they have an office party, it's still just them. There's nobody else there.

Speaker 2 So it's just like the lights change, but it's still the same four people who are like mingling with each other.

Speaker 2 So that was one of my favorite sort of setups that we had with, you know, the idea of like, well, okay, where is this going to go?

Speaker 2 And all of a sudden, you know, when you get this next level perk, it's they're going to like change the color of the lights in the room, and you're going to dance.

Speaker 2 And the combination of, you know, Milchik is like, he's kind of like, you know, obviously the best dancer there.

Speaker 4 Such a good dancer.

Speaker 2 An amazing dancer, Tramel Tillman.

Speaker 2 And Adam, the best like white guy dancing, I think I've ever seen.

Speaker 2 Quite good.

Speaker 4 He didn't do his,

Speaker 4 you know, biting his lip. The white man overbite.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 To save that Billy Crystal, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. It was, to me, the weirdness of that moment is kind of like, well, that's what's in this show.
It's motivated because it's a, you know, it's a party, it's a perk.

Speaker 2 It's, you understand why they're doing it, but it's also just so weird and it's really fun to be able to like explore that.

Speaker 4 We'll be back in a minute.

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Speaker 4 So I want to talk a little bit about the business. Have you you been surprised how popular it's gotten? I know succession got more popular in the second season, right?

Speaker 4 And Severance was Apple's first new series order after the company launched its streaming service. And it was trying to do an HBO thing.

Speaker 4 That was very clear, a place for big talent to come and make what they want with big budgets.

Speaker 4 Now, Severance is reportedly costing a lot of money, and there have been cuts at Apple pulling the budget as the second season was being produced all across the way.

Speaker 4 But at the same time, Parrot Analytics was noting that you might be generating $200 million for Apple in terms of subscriptions and everything else.

Speaker 4 And at the same time, you're about to maybe announce your third season.

Speaker 4 Talk a little bit about the calculations here of how you look at it, because it used to be so much easier. Now you made mostly movies over TV shows.

Speaker 4 But talk a little bit about the calculations because it's a weird economic environment at the same time.

Speaker 2 Honestly, I, yeah, I know very little about it. It's a weird world to be in.

Speaker 2 From the beginning, it was a new, strange experience because when we started developing the show apple wasn't even up yet

Speaker 2 and uh someone called up and said yeah apple's doing gonna do a streaming service too and i were like

Speaker 2 laughing going like what who's every okay everybody's doing streaming services is crazy um and we went out and pitched the show to different uh the hbo all these places and apple was the only one that bought it and they weren't even up yet so what did the others say about it well you know no one ever really tells you it's hollywood

Speaker 2 They say we loved it. It just wasn't for us.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 But that's just the way it is. And that's par for the course.
But they said yes to it. And then it was like, okay, we're going to develop this thing for Apple, you know, Apple TV.

Speaker 2 That's weird to think of. And then a couple of years go by, and then all of a sudden they're up and running.
And we're a show that's in production for them.

Speaker 2 And so honestly, I had no sense of what success would be other than I hope people watch it. And you know, they don't really tell you the analytics.
No, they don't.

Speaker 2 No, they don't ever tell you the analytics. No, they show us graphs and charts, but without numbers attached to them.
And

Speaker 2 it's weird.

Speaker 2 I think that's weird for any creative person, especially when you're used to, you make a movie, you know exactly how many people went to see it on opening night, how much money it made, the show, you get Nielsen ratings.

Speaker 2 In a way, it took the pressure off of us because there wasn't some number we were waiting to hear. All we wanted to hear was like, yeah, we're happy.

Speaker 2 A lot of people are watching it and you want people to watch the show. But the first season, you know, we were lucky enough to get

Speaker 2 very positive, you know, critical response, which hardly ever happens in my life.

Speaker 2 And it was, I was so happy about that. And it seemed like people were watching it, but I didn't know how many people.

Speaker 2 And then we went into our process of making the second season, which got hit by the strike. And, you know, it took a long, much longer than we wanted.

Speaker 2 So coming back after three years in this culture is, you know, it's like a hundred years in terms of just any guarantee that people are still going to be there. But in the meantime, Apple had grown.

Speaker 2 They'd built out their subscriber base. And I think they also really

Speaker 2 get the show, have always gotten the show. I thought they did a great job of marketing it the first season in terms of just like the aesthetic of it with the show and Apple.

Speaker 4 And it always felt like it looks like Apple Headquarters, but go ahead.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it does. And that wasn't intentional.

Speaker 2 I've never been to Apple Headquarters, you know, seen like aerial shots, shots, but like really we designed it, but it always felt like it's, you know, yeah, this fits on Apple.

Speaker 2 And then the second season, they really put a lot behind it. I think they believed in it and they, you know, had money invested in it too.

Speaker 2 And luckily, our fan base, our core fan base really was still there for it. And I felt like it could go either way.

Speaker 2 It could go, you know, it's three years and we waited for this, you know, no thanks, or like nobody cares, it's back. Or it could be, you know, hey, it was worth the wait.

Speaker 2 And that's totally out of your control when you're making something. So you just put your head down and do it.
So you don't know.

Speaker 4 I mean, I'm just,

Speaker 4 this parrot analytics is pretty accurate. $200 million for Apple in terms of subscription.

Speaker 2 You don't know. Yes.
I saw that article, but that's all. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 Does that change your, you know, going to Apple saying, I want more money?

Speaker 2 I want. No, no, because honestly, I feel like they've been great.
I have no complaints. It's like they, they've gotten behind the show.
They, I, you know, and

Speaker 2 these things are so complicated. I think I was really happy to see that article because I didn't know, but I also feel like they've always been like, yeah, we love the show.
We're behind it.

Speaker 2 And, you know,

Speaker 2 it's, yeah, it's never been like a thing.

Speaker 4 Did you have any problems working for a tech company?

Speaker 2 You mean like in terms of just my own sort of moral?

Speaker 4 Yeah, versus a Hollywood.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 No, just this is a whole new change with these tech companies, sort of Amazon.

Speaker 2 For me, just the concern that not knowing what Apple TV Plus would be, like whether or not they were how serious they were about it,

Speaker 2 whether or not we would be looked at as, you know, a real show early on, you know, in that way.

Speaker 2 I think like, and, you know, that's also the not knowing what they had really planned for and what they were trying to do other than

Speaker 2 them saying they wanted to make really good shows. Right.

Speaker 2 But, you know, you do hear, of course, everybody's like, well, you know, ultimately it's a phone company. You know, they're making phones.
Yeah. Yeah.
Like

Speaker 4 the creator of Transparent called me once and I said, you're selling toilet paper. That's what you're doing.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And look, for a creative person who grew up in my generation, it's weird to see, you know, it's weird to see that Amazon Prime is on there, like when you're shopping for Amazon stuff and you could just click on that and watch movies and shows.

Speaker 2 It takes away something of, you know, of the specialness of movies, you know, when you look at it that way.

Speaker 2 And then there's the other aspect of what's informing their decisions based on, you know, their analytics and

Speaker 2 the level of information that they're getting that will create for them, you know, ideas of what they think they want to produce for their platform.

Speaker 4 Yeah. So what are the chances of a third season? You did get Tim Cook in an ad.
That was a good sign.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I think he's a big ham, by the way. He pretends he's not a ham.

Speaker 2 He's a ham.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 No, yeah, I think the chances are really good. And, you know,

Speaker 2 that, yeah, I mean, for us, we just want to be able to tell the story in the number of seasons that it that it should be to to finish the story and that's what's great i mean that's the upside of working in this era is that you know we we're not a show that has to keep going because the network it's a network hit show that they're saying we need 22 episodes right and you got to keep doing until the ratings drop um there's not that pressure is not there and that that i think is something that gets gets lost a little bit in all the sort of weird negatives of this world too is that you're you have that creative freedom so at the same time there's the netflix phenomenon right they regularly beat all the other streamers more top 10 shows combined than all of them despite the quality and reviews that apple gets they'll pop up anything netflix like really pretty much uh now you guys have been doing a bunch of marketing you had the season two pop-up in grand central station that was hysterical where you put them in a in a glass box and had people had them do their work in the glass box which was three hours they were three hours and you were outside people were shooting pictures of you at the same time.

Speaker 2 How do you

Speaker 4 now go around Netflix in that regard? Or is there streaming is sort of starting to settle, I guess, but maybe not?

Speaker 2 I don't know in terms of how it's all settling out. It's just, I know it's a crazy new world.
I know Netflix has changed everything.

Speaker 2 You know, the amount of

Speaker 2 shows that they produce, movies that they make, the level of, you know, what they're putting in and spending. um

Speaker 2 it's just changed everything so uh

Speaker 2 everybody who makes stuff you want your stuff to be seen and so it's that sort of push-pull where if you have something on netflix you know that you have a chance for more people in the world to see it than probably ever but it also could be just go down the queue very quickly and never even you know get any attention and so that and that's a real thing too you know so you're scared of the queue the queue yeah sure But I mean, like, who wouldn't be, you know, feeling like, oh, I don't want to just go down, you know.

Speaker 2 But it's just such a crazy world now that the cultural moment that you have for something, I actually like being on Apple because they don't drop everything at once.

Speaker 2 We get to have an episode every week. And I think for our show, that benefits our show

Speaker 2 because we get a chance for people to chew on it and to think about it and to talk about it and to go online and go back and forth.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and to want it. And I like that.
And maybe that's just a generational thing. I'm just, I'm an old guy who's like, oh, I remember when shows would come on, you know, every week.

Speaker 2 But it's, it is, succession was like that. Right.
And you'd look forward to that. And I think,

Speaker 2 you know, it's just the new world we're in. But yeah, Netflix has turned.

Speaker 2 has turned the movie business upside down and it's still trying to find its way. I think in terms of what defines a movie,

Speaker 2 you know, I'm hoping and I really do believe we're going to get back to what people went to the movies for besides spectacle and, you know, giant IP and,

Speaker 2 you know, and all that stuff. And, you know, I feel like that will come back around.

Speaker 4 Well, you've made both types of movies, right?

Speaker 2 Sure. Yeah.
But, you know, back in the day a little bit. And I haven't done it for a while

Speaker 2 in movies. And

Speaker 2 it's hard too. You know, the thing is, like the movies had that version of it where you have an opening weekend.

Speaker 2 And if your movie didn't do well on the opening weekend, a wide release, then it would go away pretty quickly. So it's kind of the same version of like being on the queue at Netflix.

Speaker 2 It's just kind of, you know, on steroids or something.

Speaker 4 Even more existential. In that vein, there's a question, not from me.
Every episode, we ask an outside person to record a question. Here's yours.

Speaker 8 Hi, Ben. My name is Lucas Shaw, and I'm the managing editor for media and entertainment at Bloomberg News.

Speaker 2 My big question is.

Speaker 8 Following strikes and the broader pullback on spending in Hollywood, many executives, producers, and creative people say this is the worst time to work in Hollywood in their lives.

Speaker 8 What's another moment in your career where your peers had so much existential dread?

Speaker 2 Thanks.

Speaker 4 That's presuming you have existential dread.

Speaker 2 I mean, existential dread is sort of something that creative people have

Speaker 2 all the time. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And that I think could be like generational trauma that I have too. I mean, I grew up around that too.
It's, you know,

Speaker 2 it's not a very

Speaker 2 secure

Speaker 2 business being an actor or or a creative person.

Speaker 2 I mean, I can't remember a time when people were as off balance as they are now.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's, it's, everything has changed in such a big way. I'm trying to think of, you know, like when

Speaker 2 VHS happened or something like that, or, you know, things like that. But it's, it's just all been sort of thrown out there in a way that we don't know.

Speaker 2 I don't think the people who are making things know where where it's going to land either. So they're trying to figure it out.
And then there, and there's a lot of fear

Speaker 2 because those people want to keep their jobs, which I understand, but they have to make these choices based on what they think the audiences are doing. And so, yeah,

Speaker 2 I can't remember a time like this.

Speaker 4 It didn't feel so.

Speaker 4 You had noted it in the New York Times interview, though, that when a decision is made, it's never explained to the creative person, or usually, if it is, it's not usually the truth, et cetera.

Speaker 2 Well, that's, yeah, that's just sort of

Speaker 2 old school. Yeah, Yeah, that's old school.
Yeah, it is. It's, and, you know, it really is, you know, people don't ever say,

Speaker 2 I don't know of in any business, because I've only done this, but like if people tell you when they reject an idea or something, if they always tell you the actual, their honest, you know, reason why they're doing it.

Speaker 2 But I think,

Speaker 2 you know, in this business, people want to keep their relationships with each other and they want to stay connected because they don't know what the next thing is going to be.

Speaker 2 And that's just always been a part of.

Speaker 4 But I do think you're right. The bosses don't know what's going to happen, right? That's the problem, is they really don't know.
And going back to Existential Jed,

Speaker 4 coming up with the guardrails for use of AI in filmmaking are important points of negotiation. The actors and writers' strikes, we've talked about this.

Speaker 4 There was some recent controversy with the Oscar-nominated film The Brutalist. They use AI to correct the Hungarian accents of its lead actors.

Speaker 4 Do you think about AI's potential impact on the industry? Are you thrilled by it? Is there a line in your head that shouldn't be crossed when applying? I suspect you might lean into it.

Speaker 4 I don't know why I think think that.

Speaker 2 Maybe.

Speaker 2 I think it's so unknown. It's scary to think about what people could do with it, the potential, what is actually possible to do.

Speaker 2 I do believe that creative human beings are always going to be what people want to, you know. connect with and see their stuff.

Speaker 2 There are little places where AI, I mean, I feel like almost what's going on with CGI

Speaker 2 really is, in terms of visual effects, is basically into that world anyway at this point, you know, using those tools.

Speaker 2 I mean, there are little ways that if I feel like, oh, you know, to be honest, I'd say, like, oh, you're doing

Speaker 2 ADR, which is when you're like doing looping extra lines or something, and an actor's not available.

Speaker 2 If the actor said, hey, it's okay, you know, you can use my voice and we can get the, you know, those words that you need to put in because I'm not available to do it because I'm doing another movie, something like that.

Speaker 2 Those are like kind of like mundane, practical things that I think would be really helpful.

Speaker 2 And I don't know. I mean, I think I love The Brutalist.
I, you know, I, I, I don't in any way look at that as that making that movie lesser in any way at all, honestly.

Speaker 2 Um, I also am very impressed with that movie as a lot of people are because the price it was made for. Um, but the unfortunate thing is that a movie like that has to be made for such a low price.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you know, it's just, it's hard because I know how much creative people will, you know, will really stretch themselves to do what they want to do creatively.

Speaker 2 And it's really hard to get the opportunity to make a movie that's not something that everybody in the world is going to want to see.

Speaker 2 But yet those are the movies that we celebrate with awards and move us. So

Speaker 2 that's what I feel for are the creative. people who are forced to have to really sacrifice a lot so that they can get something made.

Speaker 2 And now, whether, you know, if AI could in some way help that, I don't think that's a bad thing, but you know, what where the rules are around it, I mean, the idea of like somebody taking your image and then being able to do whatever they want with it, it's very concerning to me when I see what it could be done.

Speaker 4 Well, they take your image a lot, Zoolander, all your different parts. I've often seen that.

Speaker 2 That also happened. That's always happening, that kind of thing, right? I think ever since the internet, you know?

Speaker 2 But I do think it's concerning when you see in the political world how, you know, political ads can be created and people doing things that they didn't do. It's, that's, that's that's really scary.

Speaker 4 We'll be back in a minute.

Speaker 4 So, you recently joined me in a not-so-exclusive club. We've both been called names by Elon Musk.

Speaker 4 I am seething with hate and an asshole, in case you're interested. I'm not going to repeat what he said about you.

Speaker 2 You know what he said about you.

Speaker 4 We're not repeating that word because I'm a good girl, okay? I don't say that word anymore. I used to when I was a kid, we don't do it anymore.

Speaker 4 Um, but he was he seemed upset that you endorsed Kamala Harris.

Speaker 4 And then, after you wondered in an interview whether Tropic Thunder could be made today, and I wish there was, as you know, I'm desperate for Tropic Thunder too.

Speaker 4 Um,

Speaker 4 he wanted you to be more upset about how wokeness has supposedly ruined comedy. Talk a little bit about that.

Speaker 2 That makes no sense to me. I have no idea what that means.

Speaker 4 Well, you think he's on the up and up now these days? Because he makes so much sense about everything he does.

Speaker 2 But, um, but I have very little interest in his whole thing and like what he's doing.

Speaker 4 So tell me why, because

Speaker 4 he was retweeting a Daily Mail headline that read, Ben Stiller says, Woke America killed Edgy or comedy. That's not what you said at all, from what I could read.

Speaker 2 No, not

Speaker 2 yeah, that was totally,

Speaker 2 yeah, that was not at all. It's the opposite of what I was saying.
Yeah. I don't know why he has so much time on his hands that he's retweeting something that was written about me.

Speaker 2 I know he really likes Tropic Thunder. Great.
Good for him. But I think he's, you know, after that, that, you know, the Nazi salute, the double Nazi salute.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I'm just, I'm not, yeah, I'm not into it, never was into it.

Speaker 2 And I think, you know, what's happening, honestly, not that anybody needs my opinion, but what's happening in terms of him being so close to the president and, you know, all the questions that that brings up in terms of conflicts of interest, all of that stuff is really, really concerning.

Speaker 4 It is, absolutely.

Speaker 2 The two of them together. And what he cares about pop culture and all that stuff.
It's like, you know,

Speaker 4 who who gives a shit you know he wanted you to agree with him that tropic thunder couldn't be made isn't that awful it goes with the narrative of isn't everybody trying to stop us because we're the greatest victims on earth us rich people are the greatest i think that's that's down that lane something like that yeah i mean I don't think it makes anybody a victim.

Speaker 2 I mean, what the temperature is in terms of what movies are getting, you know, made or not.

Speaker 2 The reality is,

Speaker 2 yeah, sure, the environment is different and it would be tougher to get it made.

Speaker 4 I don't know if it could get made or not i think it would be harder to get it made but that doesn't mean i'm commenting on you know the state of our like of our culture i think it's he wanted you to agree with him i think yeah yeah well i don't yeah but you don't okay but one of the things that people are worried about is a trump chill in hollywood now obviously that's happening in tech everybody showed up at the at the inauguration all the tech richest people in the world um new york magazine recently quoted an anonymous producer who said there's more fear in the executive suites now than there's ever been there seems to be be a pulling back.

Speaker 4 Disney pulled a trans character, for example.

Speaker 4 Is there any indication for you that Hollywood executives would be more hesitant to fund projects with political messages? Quite a few of yours have them.

Speaker 4 Now, besides sports that you endlessly blew sky about, which I don't understand any of your references, you're also very political. You don't,

Speaker 4 I believe they're a basketball team in any case.

Speaker 4 You are a political, but do you think about that at all?

Speaker 2 Yeah, sure. I think about it.
I mean,

Speaker 2 yeah, I don't know. Like after,

Speaker 2 you know, when October 7th happened and, you know,

Speaker 2 yeah,

Speaker 2 I was trying to think of like, well, what should I say? And it was really,

Speaker 2 I realized like, I'm not going to be able to express myself in a tweet or a blue sky post or, you know, it's just, I don't want to go into that arena of like having to sort of like distill some idea down into a thought that then people are going to debate and you know what's going to happen with that.

Speaker 2 But so to me, it's more a question of like, where do I express myself and what do I do?

Speaker 2 And I don't think having to legislate all this stuff on the, you know, on your phone all the time, or as much as sometimes there's an instinct to, to me, that's not something that I'm going to.

Speaker 2 really do well with or it's just not going to make me happy to do that.

Speaker 2 But I feel like that's why I wrote a little something about October 7th and just put it out there because I wanted to express myself.

Speaker 2 I just think it's this social media debate and what it turns into is not, it never really goes well.

Speaker 4 What about the art itself? Do you think how it will be impacted by the time we're in if you could look forward?

Speaker 4 I know I interviewed Rachel Maddow recently and we talked a bit about our podcast about Nixon's corrupt first vice president, Spear Wagner, called Bagman.

Speaker 4 It's being adapted into a feature film you were reportedly set to direct. Do you think about doing, are you directing that? Is that correct?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm trying to get that movie made. We almost got it made a couple of years ago.
I think it's more, more important now.

Speaker 2 Look, I think artists are

Speaker 2 incredibly inspired now to speak out. through in creative ways about what's going on in our country.

Speaker 2 You know, my daughter is

Speaker 2 an actor. She just graduated from drama school and she's a writer and she wants to make movies.

Speaker 2 And she said, you know, all I want to do right now is make stories about women and what they're going through because of what's going on in our country right now.

Speaker 2 So I think think people are really inspired, and you're going to see a lot of amazing art come out of it.

Speaker 4 Does it make you want to do more? Because, I mean, Angels in America came out of Reagan, right? It came out of that anger. A lot of that art came out of this.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think you have to be true to who you are and, you know, in terms of what you create, but yes, for sure.

Speaker 2 And I think we all have to kind of look at ourselves and say, okay, you know, what message are we putting out there with whatever it is we make?

Speaker 2 But even if a comedy, a drama, whatever it is, it doesn't all have to be political. It has to be true to who you are.
And, you know, we're all affected by the world that we're in.

Speaker 2 So it's hopefully going to be a reflection of the experience that you're having in some way. I don't put that pressure on people to have to go out and do something.

Speaker 2 I think you have to be, you know, do what feels right for you.

Speaker 4 Is there something that inspires you now at this moment?

Speaker 4 Because, I mean, do you get, feel more, I don't feel like you're going to be making Night at the Museum 7 at this point or whatever we're on, whatever we're on.

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, honestly, though, I still think it's good to have stuff that you can watch that can make you laugh and give you a reward. Your heist movie.

Speaker 4 What's it called? Heist? Oh, Tower Heist? Tower Heist was so good.

Speaker 2 Do you want to know? You know what? We shot that in the Trump Tower. Oh, you did.
I know you did. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And the movie was originally called Trump Tower Heist, but Trump wanted them to pay him for the use of his name. So they changed it to Tower Heist.
Oh, wow. I don't think anybody ever heard that.

Speaker 2 Oh, wow. Good to know.

Speaker 2 Yeah. But no, look, I, like many people after the election who, you know, didn't vote for Trump, kind of wanted to just sort of hide for a moment and just not have to deal with the reality.

Speaker 2 And I think, you know, now it's sort of this moment in time where it's like, okay, this is the reality we're in. It's not the first term.

Speaker 2 We have to look at it, look at ourselves and do what we feel is right to, you know, to be who we want to be in this moment. And so I think it's.

Speaker 2 that should all be, you know, what you're expressing and it should all be part of, you know, what you want to say.

Speaker 2 So yeah, that movie Bagman, I'd love to get that movie made right now because I feel like it sort of tells the story of what happens when people do the right thing in the face of somebody who's trying to, you know, go past the bounds of what their power is.

Speaker 4 Right. And Spear Ragnew is quite a character.
He's such a fantastic.

Speaker 4 That was a great podcast. I like all of Rachel's podcasts a lot.

Speaker 4 So my last question, before we go, is this idea of influences you now, or perhaps before.

Speaker 4 I know your mother and father, the great Jerry Stiller and Anne Mira, she died in 2015, I think that's right, and he died in 2020.

Speaker 4 You're working on a documentary about them right now. Can you talk a little bit about this? And I imagine they gave you a lot of advice about entertainment, business, and storytelling over the years.

Speaker 4 Is there anything about their careers from your perspective that endures and what influences you today?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, they worked together as a comedy team. They got married in 1953, and they weren't making any money as actors, both separately, trying to, you know, get work.

Speaker 2 And then my dad came up with this idea of them doing a comedy act together about who they were. And then we were born, my sister and I, and so grew up around it all.
And

Speaker 2 for me, it was exploring in the movie this life of

Speaker 2 living in a household that was constantly

Speaker 2 part of their creative process because they would work at home and they would write together and they would perform and come home and, you know, be parents and actors.

Speaker 2 And it was all sort of intermingled. And then, of course, you know, you grow up and I

Speaker 2 got married and had kids and became an actor, and my kids want to be actors.

Speaker 2 And I was sort of looking at, you know, what is it inside of us that the creative process is and how that connects with relationships that we have in our life when you do this kind of thing.

Speaker 2 You know, when you go to an office job, you know, you go to the office, then you want to maybe sever and not think about it, right?

Speaker 2 You know, but in a life where you're a creative person, it melves through and it's always part of who you are. So I, it affected my parents' marriage.

Speaker 2 They stayed married for 60 plus years, but there was a lot of stress and tension in there. And I was able to, my dad recorded

Speaker 2 a lot of stuff, audio recordings, Super 8 film, and he recorded them rehearsing.

Speaker 2 And then sometimes the tape recorder would keep going and they'd get into an argument or they'd talk about what was going on in their life.

Speaker 2 So I was able to take those tapes and kind of see something that I hadn't seen in their private life together and how they navigated this relationship and their careers together.

Speaker 4 And where is that coming off?

Speaker 2 It's going to be Apple. Apple Apple Movies.
Yeah. And it's going to come out later this year, I think.

Speaker 4 So last question. What then influences you today about doing this from them? What did you come away with?

Speaker 2 I think I came away with a better understanding of my parents

Speaker 2 in terms of my dad's creative process in particular, because he was very focused on that. And sometimes

Speaker 2 it sort of took him away from the family in a way, just kind of in his head a little bit. And I think I inherited that from him.

Speaker 2 And I think it's kind of made me look at my own relationship with my kids and my wife and have a little more perspective on that. And maybe kind of, you know, I don't know, like less

Speaker 2 angst about that because, you know, an appreciation of like going, okay, we've gotten to this place. Things have not always been perfect, but you know, you keep evolving.

Speaker 2 And both my parents, I think, were

Speaker 2 constantly evolving and questioning themselves and looking inward. And I think that's something I got out of it.

Speaker 4 All right, Ben, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 Great talking to you. All right.
Bye, Cara.

Speaker 4 On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor-Wassell, Kateri Yoakum, Jolie Myers, Megan Burney, Megan Kunane, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio.

Speaker 4 Special thanks to Kate Furby. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Aruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics.
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Speaker 4 Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.