Trump's Tariffs, Elon's Government Takeover, and OpenAI's New Funding

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Speaker 10 And I also occasionally, if I have both a gummy and a couple makers and ginger, I put in my AirPods and I dance to 80s music without my shirt on.

Speaker 5 Can you put a camera in your house so I can watch that?

Speaker 5 Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Speaker 5 I'm Kara Swisher and I am in San Francisco and was on a flight last night having to read about Doge working all weekend taking over the government.

Speaker 9 Good to see you, Kara.

Speaker 12 I'm so tired.

Speaker 13 Are you?

Speaker 14 Why are you back in San Francisco?

Speaker 5 Oh, I have a bunch of things to do here. I'm speaking in front of a group from Columbia University Journalism School.
I've got some appointments.

Speaker 5 I've got a whole bunch of stuff I'm doing here in San Francisco. I like to come and visit the place every now and then to find out.
I love it there.

Speaker 5 I do. I do.
I don't have a lot of time here this time, but I am

Speaker 5 excited to be here. Anyway, it was a long weekend.
Listen, this whole Doge thing has got me off to a bad start, but I am glad I'm in San Francisco, that's for sure. How are you doing?

Speaker 15 Good. I'm about to get on a plane for Orlando.

Speaker 4 Oh, nice.

Speaker 17 Yeah.

Speaker 18 I have a speaking gig at Walt Disney World.

Speaker 5 What?

Speaker 20 Yeah, don't ask. I don't don't know.

Speaker 21 I don't know. I just go where they send me.

Speaker 22 Which

Speaker 4 place?

Speaker 23 What's that? Why?

Speaker 5 Who is at Walt Disney World?

Speaker 24 They do a lot of conventions there, I guess.

Speaker 4 I don't know.

Speaker 27 Foreigners? I don't know.

Speaker 16 I don't know what's going on there.

Speaker 29 I just know I'm going. And

Speaker 29 then I spend a day there, and then I go to New York for three or four days, and I'm back.

Speaker 4 Oh,

Speaker 5 nice. That's really nice.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Yeah.
It's February is going to be a big month. It's going to be a big month.
And it has been in Washington, as I said, but it's just, it seems very active.

Speaker 37 it used to be a lot slower in the winter now it seems crazy maybe just i'm tired from flying all night and then being here yeah i don't know i don't you spend it's interesting as close as we are professionally and personally uh we are never in the same place you spend most of your time in dc and san francisco and i am never in dc or san francisco but that's why we're so close you see yeah but i it's funny you say that so just to bring this back to me i have a really nice relationship with my sister.

Speaker 16 She's my dad's daughter by his third marriage.

Speaker 38 I'm the son by his second marriage.

Speaker 43 And I'm convinced one of the reasons that we're so close now is that we didn't live in the same household.

Speaker 32 I've always been shocked by how many siblings are not that close, even though they're both really good people.

Speaker 30 And I convince it's because something traumatic happens. It creates a fissure when they're living together as children.

Speaker 29 And when you're a sibling, you feel that familial bond, but the fact that you never lived together, I don't know.

Speaker 9 She looks like a different species.

Speaker 25 She's attractive.

Speaker 45 She's blonde.

Speaker 43 She kind of looks Irish joke.

Speaker 47 She looks like Aryan youth.

Speaker 29 She has big, beautiful blue eyes and platinum blonde hair.

Speaker 5 Okay. All right.
That's an interesting reference. Okay.

Speaker 12 Yeah, she likes that. Oh, all right.
She likes that.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I'm sure. We have a lot to get to today.
May I start off by saying something? Someone who is a big listener of ours wrote me, and someone

Speaker 5 they knew died in that plane crash and said we were a little too glib about the plane crash getting making it political.

Speaker 5 And I thought about it, and I really do

Speaker 5 think we were trying hard to separate it from the politics. And there's no getting around it.
This is a terrible tragedy of people dying. And I get it.

Speaker 5 For a lot of people, it's been turned into a political thing. And maybe we did a little bit more than we should have because we said we weren't going to.

Speaker 5 So I wanted to bring that up. I don't know how you feel about that, but I wanted to say these families were finally, they're finally finding everybody there.

Speaker 5 It's still, they still have not found everybody in the Potomac. But reading these stories this week of

Speaker 5 these families was

Speaker 5 really heartbreaking. I found it.
I found it very heartbreaking.

Speaker 11 Yeah, it's look, it's it's impossible not

Speaker 15 that's an impossible, I don't want to call it accusation, but it's an impossible comment to not land because if you knew somebody on one of those flights,

Speaker 25 you're devastated, right?

Speaker 17 They're losing a loved one

Speaker 49 unexpectedly and in such a harsh spectacle is, you know, you're kind of, I can't imagine any of those people, including their families, are ever going to be the same again.

Speaker 11 You know, my, my view is taking a step back, I mean, it was sort of like when the wildfires came,

Speaker 22 I think, at least the point I was trying to make, I won't put words in your mouth, is that

Speaker 8 rather than, I would argue, empathy for the people on, you know, who lost their homes or the people who lost their lives,

Speaker 21 the left says it's climate change.

Speaker 50 The right says it's DEI.

Speaker 48 In this instance, the right mostly, the left was mostly quiet.

Speaker 24 The right was, this is DEI.

Speaker 15 And it's just a shame that a lot of that empathy gets, it gets some bullshit nods from people, thoughts and prayers, and they immediately go to, how can I politicize this?

Speaker 46 And our point was, or not our point, my point is the following.

Speaker 35 The FAA is arguably one of the most successful government agencies in history.

Speaker 52 And as someone who's invested in aviation, the error rate you have to

Speaker 7 test to is 10 to the negative eighth

Speaker 45 with to get a civil aviation aircraft certified to fly passengers.

Speaker 54 I mean, in the ability at any moment, there's something like 7,000 planes in the air in our airspace.

Speaker 19 And the fact that they're able to minimize or keep the number of these horrific tragedies, it is more dangerous to walk up your stairs to get on a plane.

Speaker 12 No, I get that.

Speaker 5 I get it.

Speaker 25 And so the,

Speaker 18 and just let me finish here.

Speaker 13 I am not a fan of DEI.

Speaker 45 I've said in the university setting, I think that apparatus should be disassembled.

Speaker 14 I think in the corporate setting, there is absolutely still a role for DEI, and people don't realize that DEI,

Speaker 18 the removal of DEI will impact veterans' ability to get jobs.

Speaker 25 But in the instance of, if you were to say that the DEI has infected the FAA, then all you could say is based on the performance of the FAA, then

Speaker 18 DEI should be incorporated into every organization.

Speaker 45 Because whatever the FAA has been doing the last 30 or 40 years has resulted in outstanding metrics.

Speaker 38 But I just want to circle back.

Speaker 23 I feel whoever wrote that, I trust and hope.

Speaker 12 I'm a fan of ours.

Speaker 43 I would, yeah, I apologize sincerely if in any way our comments come across as course. That was not our intention.

Speaker 5 Yeah, not at all. Let me just say,

Speaker 5 I would avail avail myself someone. Sometimes you can complain about media, but these stories about these people, and I read a bunch of them, are wonderful, especially this,

Speaker 5 you know, this group of skaters and friends. And

Speaker 5 it's,

Speaker 5 you know, I know plane crashes do get more attention than other things. And as you say, not as many people die, but it's such a sort of horrific way to die.

Speaker 5 And the way it becomes a spectacle is also horrific. But let's just remember, there's people on this flight.
That's all I want want to say. I just, I did that after 9-11, too.

Speaker 5 I read so many of the biographies and stuff like that. And you don't do that for everybody, every day of the year who dies.

Speaker 5 But in that case, it starts, it gives you a real sense of mortality when those happens to everybody. And it just was, anyway, we're sorry.
That was not our intent. And

Speaker 5 let's hope we figure out what happened.

Speaker 5 stop accidents like that because God is right, our air travel is safe comparatively going forward. Anyway, we've got a lot to get today.

Speaker 5 Trump set off a firestorm over the weekend slapping 25% tariffs on goods from Canada and Mexico and 10% on China's products set to go into effect this week. What do you think, Scott?

Speaker 15 Well, just on a human level, for the first time in my life,

Speaker 34 and this is an odd feeling and it's a mix of shame and surprise, I'm rooting for Canada, not the U.S.

Speaker 30 So let's start with the tariffs and let's do a strongman or steel man.

Speaker 24 His argument is that

Speaker 61 countries, the America has been too soft and that America should command the space it occupies and charge more and create a revenue source for access to what is the largest economy in the world.

Speaker 42 And that our trade agreements have been asymmetric and that is they have we have been taken advantage of.

Speaker 49 First, my personal experience, having literally done business in almost every Western nation and even negotiated agreements between private companies and world leaders, America flexes its power every fucking day.

Speaker 24 I mean, the notion that somehow we're always on the wrong end of deals, when you show up, almost every trade agreement, we have 700 military bases in 80 countries.

Speaker 64 China has one in Djibouti.

Speaker 55 And you think we just asked for those?

Speaker 18 You think we just said, hey, wouldn't it be a great idea to have a military base?

Speaker 51 We flex our power.

Speaker 23 every day.

Speaker 7 So first, the base notion that somehow we've been taking advantage of.

Speaker 16 Getting taken advantage of is literally comical.

Speaker 13 Now, let's talk about the tariffs themselves.

Speaker 66 You could make the argument, all right, with China.

Speaker 67 The argument would be, and I'm trying to call balls and strikes here, a lot of the tariffs initially imposed in the first Trump administration were actually kept in place by Biden.

Speaker 59 This takes it to such a deeper, weirder level because,

Speaker 35 for example, with Canada, 25%,

Speaker 31 this will just immediately raise prices for both nations.

Speaker 68 The definition of stupid is you hurt yourself and you hurt others.

Speaker 20 In addition,

Speaker 47 you don't think China might get a military base at Colombia at some point? You don't think

Speaker 45 Canada,

Speaker 59 the Canadian embassy in Tehran, those people risked their lives to try and covertly get American hostages out of Iran.

Speaker 21 They risked their lives because Canada sees themselves as friends, brothers, siblings of America.

Speaker 23 They followed us into Afghanistan.

Speaker 51 They followed us into Iraq.

Speaker 63 We have major league baseball, national basketball association

Speaker 41 in Canada.

Speaker 64 It's more than an ally.

Speaker 59 They are with us.

Speaker 17 And Canada right now can even answer the question, what do you want from us?

Speaker 69 What's the end game here?

Speaker 59 Why didn't you call us your good friend and say, this is our concern and this is what we're trying to achieve?

Speaker 16 I don't even think they know.

Speaker 63 They can't even answer the question, what is his end game here in this bullshit that, well, we've got to reduce the level of fentanyl.

Speaker 64 You can sort of make that argument against China and Mexico.

Speaker 20 You can't make it against Canada.

Speaker 5 He wants to be the 51st state. There's that throwing in there that Canadian is.

Speaker 18 Okay, you've managed to raise prices to diminish the quality of life of a friend, to diminish goodwill that has been built up over

Speaker 35 150 years.

Speaker 42 And it's just going to raise consumer prices.

Speaker 39 It's not only reckless, it is literally the definition of stupid is doing something that hurts others and hurts yourself, especially the one against Canada.

Speaker 53 I can sort of see the argument, at least theoretically, about the drug trade and fentanyl coming through Mexico.

Speaker 21 Fine, the immigrants, the 250,000 people coming over the border, maybe China, I can sort of make an argument.

Speaker 67 I still don't think it's smart, but the tariffs against Canada?

Speaker 5 Right. All right.
One of the, I mean, the Mexicans, Mexican president, who's who seems much more aggressive than previous presidents, was making the point, stop wanting drugs so much.

Speaker 5 Do something about your own drug problem within the country and the demand, which you never do.

Speaker 5 There has been an effort by the Mexican government to slow all that down, right? There has been progress made.

Speaker 5 Just a note, we recorded this episode on Monday morning.

Speaker 5 Since then, Mexico has announced that it has struck a deal with the Trump administration to put tariffs on hold for a month, which is exactly what Mark Cuban said would happen.

Speaker 5 But again, this

Speaker 5 seems like in Trump's head, and I've read economists after economist that is just like this is the world's worst thing to happen to everybody. And it will be a tax.
You know, there were a couple of

Speaker 5 anchors who just doesn't seem to know math. It'll be a tax on the American consumer that they're not going to get through tax breaks because the tax breaks are going to the very wealthy.

Speaker 5 They're not going to.

Speaker 5 And this is a direct tax on the American consumer. It's really quite something.
And the price of everything, all this weird, I had no idea that so much stuff.

Speaker 5 And I, you know, I know that we're doing lots of trade vaguely, but in terms of when you start to get the specifics of what we import, fresh fruits and vegetables, gas, obviously maple syrup, things like that.

Speaker 5 But some of it, you know, cars that go back and forth across the border.

Speaker 5 I was vaguely aware of that, but it's really, we are, they aren't the 51st state, but they sure as hell aren't just another country. That is true.
And I think the same with Mexico.

Speaker 5 We have so much trade with them. And there was a hope that we'd put more technology engineering there.
So it was closer and less at risk than in China, right?

Speaker 5 He thinks it's a negotiating tactic. And one of the things,

Speaker 5 let me look it up. Mark Cuban said, which I thought was smart, is that he'll make some calls and call them off right away and then declare victory, essentially.

Speaker 5 You know, do a pinky promise that I think that's what he said,

Speaker 5 that he was tough and then he can take his win and go home, essentially, which it sounded like a pretty reasonable idea of what this idiot's going to do, essentially.

Speaker 9 If you were to game theory this out, the most likely outcome is that immediately you're going to see a spike in prices or near immediately.

Speaker 21 A lot of companies have been stockpiling.

Speaker 50 I was on the board of a retailer and I was speaking to the CEO the other day and he said, yeah, the tariffs in China, we knew they were coming.

Speaker 18 So we've been stockpiling things and get trying to get them in until this gets solved.

Speaker 40 So you're not, I actually don't think you're going to see price increases as quickly as people think.

Speaker 30 Maybe we will, but we will see price increases.

Speaker 60 And then he will come up with some sort of, he'll declare victory and say he got something and most likely roll them back somewhat or all.

Speaker 38 That's the most likely scenario.

Speaker 61 What we're not thinking about is that people have memories, people have egos, and we're no longer a trusted ally.

Speaker 11 We no longer can be counted on.

Speaker 54 You're going to see that the Canadians are going to be more likely to import BYD electric vehicles.

Speaker 5 This is from China, for people who don't know.

Speaker 6 And what's interesting about this, and it gets more Machiavellian and mendacious as you look at it, it's clear Musk's fingerprints are all over this because if you look at Tesla, they actually have, to their credit, the greatest manufacturing depth.

Speaker 62 What do I mean by that?

Speaker 51 If you're an American car maker, sometimes certain car parts or components literally go up and down Canada and cross Mexican borders six, eight, 10 times.

Speaker 32 There's tariffs going to be everywhere in American automobile companies, except Tesla.

Speaker 21 The majority of their parts are manufactured vertically here in the S.

Speaker 55 The majority of the automobiles they sell in China, which would be subject to the reciprocal tariffs that China is going to impose on American products.

Speaker 47 The majority of Teslas sold in China are actually manufactured in China.

Speaker 18 Now,

Speaker 47 and Tesla is suing Europe for their 7.5% tariff they put on

Speaker 47 Teslas sold, manufactured in China.

Speaker 4 So, actually, these tariffs, in my view, were massaged and written and negotiated to a certain extent by Elon Musk.

Speaker 63 Because what this amounts to in the automobile industry is it's going to seriously impair U.S.

Speaker 47 auto companies, but it's not going to impair Tesla.

Speaker 45 But this is

Speaker 47 what people don't realize, he'll try and get some sort of political win, flex his muscle, America's back.

Speaker 9 But the amount of goodwill that we are eroding long term, this isn't how you operate a business.

Speaker 58 This isn't how you operate a country.

Speaker 5 No, it's called distributed negotiations, where one is a winner and a loser.

Speaker 5 I was reading a whole thing about his negotiating style, which doesn't work on the international stage. This is what Cuban said.

Speaker 5 He's going to say, pinky square, you will protect our border and buy more booze and stuff from us. They will say yes.
We'll actually buy this stuff. And he will declare victory, Trump and Omics.

Speaker 39 And long term, they're just not going to be as inclined to

Speaker 42 cooperate with our central intelligence agency when there's a terrorist threat in their country.

Speaker 24 The reason the U.S.

Speaker 55 is the most powerful nation in the world is for a variety of reasons, our geography, our national resources, our IP, but also the incredible amount of admiration and goodwill our allies have for us.

Speaker 5 Let's listen to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau essentially called Trump's actions a betrayal of our alliance, which you just said.

Speaker 50 Together,

Speaker 74 we've built the most successful economic, military, and security partnership the world has ever seen. A relationship that has been the envy of the world.

Speaker 74 Yes, we've had our differences in the past, but we've always found a way to get past them.

Speaker 74 As I've said before, if President Trump wants to usher in a new golden age for the United States, the better path is to partner with Canada, not to punish us.

Speaker 5 I don't know. Anyway, that's a very good secret.
He's also gaining. He's had to leave because of pressure from conservatives, too.
And now they're all joined together.

Speaker 5 Just some more things, and then one next thing. Larry Summers has called the tariffs against Canada and Mexico inexplicable and dangerous.
He's usually right about things.

Speaker 5 He's an economist, obviously, well-known economist. Trump acknowledged it could cause some pain, but how bad could it get?

Speaker 5 As we said, alcohol, food, cars, toys, pretty much everything. They'll also, these tariffs will also target that de minimis provision that allows packages of less than $800 to ship to the U.S.

Speaker 5 duty-free. That loophole has been

Speaker 5 a boon for Sheen,

Speaker 5 Tamu, and others.

Speaker 5 I suspect

Speaker 5 he'll be a paper tiger here, correct? I mean, do you imagine? I think that he's going to do exactly what Mark says.

Speaker 24 Well, a senator that both of us know heard our comments

Speaker 37 and our disappointment in the Democratic Party around messaging and hitting back and called me and said, Well, what would you do?

Speaker 62 And I'm like,

Speaker 16 don't play the indignance card.

Speaker 21 Don't talk about all these federal employees being laid off.

Speaker 9 Don't be outraged.

Speaker 21 Have five or six different items, whether it's eggs, whether it's lumber, whether it's a toy, I don't know what, you know, a car, a new Chevrolet, and have it on the DNC website and just every day announce what the prices are.

Speaker 21 Inflation is number one on people's minds. That's what they promised to bring prices down.

Speaker 61 And I don't see any way around how interest rates or prices don't immediately or near immediately tick up.

Speaker 21 And that's what impacts people every day.

Speaker 27 And that's what he promised to immediately bring down is we were going to bring prices down immediately.

Speaker 43 This is,

Speaker 42 I don't get the end game here.

Speaker 11 I don't.

Speaker 5 Because he was. He was

Speaker 5 prices down and tax cuts, I think. And none of those things are on the, are on the thing.

Speaker 5 It's DEI at the FAA and tariffs and destroying the government, essentially, which seems to be taking advantage of his chaotic friend, Elon Musk, or help.

Speaker 17 Well, in all of these stories that would have made huge news and had real scrutiny, one, there's fewer journalists to cover them, and you fled the zone with all of this stuff.

Speaker 30 By the way, these tax cuts are talking about, just so you know, Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway are getting a tax cut.

Speaker 21 Anyone else on this show that makes less than $300,000 a year is getting a tax hike.

Speaker 8 So these tax cuts, again, done under the cover of flooding the zone, are going to cut taxes on people making over, the people making over $300,000 will get a small tax cut.

Speaker 1 People making over $800,000 or a million bucks a year, about to get a pretty nice tax cut.

Speaker 23 Is that what you voted for?

Speaker 22 More, more wealth for the more wealth for the 1%, but no one's even talking about it because everything seems even more outrageous.

Speaker 9 There's so many things here that we can't, the media, and I don't think consumers can absorb it.

Speaker 68 And that was their strategy.

Speaker 42 In some ways, it's sort of mendaciously brilliant.

Speaker 43 Just, oh,

Speaker 21 slip in a tax cut for the rich because they're going to be focused on all this stuff over here, all our accusations of DEI and the things we're doing at the CEO.

Speaker 12 Distraction.

Speaker 5 Distraction.

Speaker 65 There's just so much here.

Speaker 9 And one thing feels more strange, weird, reckless, economically stupid than the next.

Speaker 21 They won't notice all this other stuff.

Speaker 39 Project 2025 is being implemented.

Speaker 5 Let me go through the other ones that happened. Over 8,000 U.S.
government websites have been deleted as a result of Trump's order to end programs to promote gender ideology.

Speaker 5 Information about vaccines, hate crimes, and veterans' care has been removed.

Speaker 5 Among the removed, 3,000 pages from the CDC, 100 pages from the FDA, 200 pages from Head Start, a program for low-income children, and 1,000 pages from the Department of Justice, a lot around January 6th.

Speaker 5 Obviously, USAID was the other thing that was happening. Looks like they're closing it down.
They went in over the weekend and took control of the agency, which they're trying to close down.

Speaker 5 Apparently, Elon said

Speaker 5 on X on a Spaces, I guess, that they are closing it down. And he also tweeted, it should die.
It was a criminal organization, making all kinds of accusations.

Speaker 5 Sounds like he has a band of teenagers, young people helping him do this.

Speaker 5 Troublesome. They are claiming that nobody without security clearance got access, but it sounds pretty middle of the night on the weekend, which he bragged about, saying

Speaker 5 one of his advantages and superpowers is he works on the weekend.

Speaker 5 I work on the weekend, but I don't consider it a superpower.

Speaker 51 Can we talk about the sites?

Speaker 5 Yes, let's go to the sites.

Speaker 42 Well, I've always maintained.

Speaker 36 So, for example, there was an HIV transmission calculator, and I've maintained that actually, I don't think Trump is

Speaker 48 homophobic.

Speaker 60 I'm not even sure it's fair to say that their policies are misogynistic.

Speaker 43 What I think their policies are, I don't know what the right term is here.

Speaker 37 I don't think this is a war on women. I don't think it's a war on gay people.

Speaker 16 I think it's a war on poor people.

Speaker 50 And if you have, the CDC had an HIV transmission calculator.

Speaker 45 And if you're a young man discovering your sexuality, and you live with a single mother, you don't have a lot of money, maybe you've dropped out of high school, it's important that these kids have have this information about PrEP and PEP and what certain types of sex result in transmission of HIV.

Speaker 63 It's important that if you have an STD and you find out that you're pregnant, what that means and what treatment are available.

Speaker 13 And all those sites have been taken down.

Speaker 45 Now, who does that impact?

Speaker 64 Would it impact my son?

Speaker 4 No.

Speaker 48 It impacts poor kids.

Speaker 77 It impacts poor women.

Speaker 23 And this is the, it's the definition of censorship and purposely regressing and taking us back.

Speaker 42 It feels like it's not, I don't think it's a war on women or LGBTQ.

Speaker 23 It's a war on poor women.

Speaker 5 Oh, come on, Scott. I'm sorry.
It is. It's a war on lots of things.
That stuff they're taking down across the government is it's not just poor people.

Speaker 5 They're trying to like abrogate, to eliminate other, anyone else that has, remember, they're taking down, like, they have Black History Month or Gay Pride Month.

Speaker 11 But who does it impact?

Speaker 5 Well, that kind of stuff. It's the same message.

Speaker 5 If you read Project 2025, it's not just, of course it impacts poor people, but it also impacts the idea of any kind of identity beyond, you know,

Speaker 5 veterans need to veteran.

Speaker 5 You know, CDC needs to CDC. Don't talk about anything else.

Speaker 5 It's an idea. It's an idea that has driven them crazy, which is that we should celebrate diversity, I guess.
That's, you know, it's a broader obsession that they have with this issue.

Speaker 5 And that's how you led to sort of the FAA thing, which is it had to be diversity, equity, inclusion that caused these crashes, even though we haven't had a crash in a very, very long time when those things were in place,

Speaker 5 which probably is a tragic accident.

Speaker 5 You know, that's really what it is. And that's what happens in life.
But,

Speaker 5 but I think

Speaker 5 it's a bigger ideological attack of things they're trying to eliminate in schools.

Speaker 5 Let me just say, my kids in a public school in DC, I am very nervous. They're going to start meddling with the education system.
She came home and was talking.

Speaker 5 She said, oh, I learned the word diverse today. And I said, what does that mean to you? And she goes, oh, they're all different.
And she wasn't using race.

Speaker 5 She was like, oh, we're all different people from each other. And it's good to be, you know, to have differences.
And it's good to have things in common. It was a very like,

Speaker 5 you know, chalk vanilla strawberry way of thinking about it. But I was like, oh, they're going to take that out of her education, just the word, which was frightening in a lot of ways.

Speaker 14 You know, I think it's a bigger issue, you know, taking the word diversity out of preschool.

Speaker 12 No, I know.

Speaker 5 I think they're going to do a lot of meddling in education.

Speaker 18 Well, let me finish.

Speaker 7 I think in terms of actual damage on the ground, not letting, having information around vaccines for new mothers who may not have access to, you know, formal education.

Speaker 47 not having access to information around STDs, not having access to information around HIV transmission, not having access to who you can contact if you think your landlord is unfairly abusing you and won't give you your deposit back.

Speaker 32 I generally believe America, even under Trump, that rich people continue to have more rights at the expense of poor people.

Speaker 19 And I think that's the basic fulcrum and the injustice in our society right now.

Speaker 21 I think the majority of the people who are in special interest groups, as long as you have money, I think you're fine.

Speaker 51 I just,

Speaker 18 this to me is just a war on poor people.

Speaker 42 And they give up,

Speaker 51 I agree with you.

Speaker 18 It's ideologically driven.

Speaker 21 But what they've said is in order to execute it, we're going to give rich people a pass on all these things.

Speaker 23 They will still have access to medical abortions.

Speaker 68 They will still have access to lawyers to ensure they have civil rights.

Speaker 32 They will still have access to marriage if they want it.

Speaker 49 They're fine.

Speaker 16 It's poor people who are going to bear the brunt of all this ideological weirdness.

Speaker 5 I very much think they're going to go after marriage. This is the hallmarks of all of it.
I think they're going to go after that.

Speaker 5 They're trying to get it to the Supreme Court, just like they did with affirmative action. They're trying to get libel cases with the press.
There's certain

Speaker 5 this obsession about gender ideology has really twisted them in a way that's really

Speaker 5 it's just twisted them in ways that I think is much more at the heart of ideology than just let's attack the poor people.

Speaker 5 I think they have a real, they want to push back so much of the stuff that has happened over the past couple of years, probably including among their children and everything else.

Speaker 5 So we'll see where it goes, but taking down pages is really just about, it seems so needlessly cruel. Let's go on a quick break.

Speaker 5 When we come back, we'll talk about winners and losers from the latest round of big tech earnings. We'll talk a little bit more about what Musk is doing by being the,

Speaker 5 not the second president, the president.

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Speaker 5 Scott, we're back. We're recording this Monday morning.
The U.S. markets just opened a little while ago, and the Dow dropped 600 points.
NASDAQ is down 2%. S ⁇ P down around 1.75%.

Speaker 5 Global stocks are are also plunging. Scott, what do you think about this? Not a surprise.

Speaker 17 The market is a sober arbiter and has done the math really quickly. Everybody loses over the medium and long term with tariffs.

Speaker 53 Yes.

Speaker 5 Wall Street thinks you're an idiot, Donald Trump. It's been a few busy days for tech earnings, also.
Let's go through it to sort of line us up for that.

Speaker 5 Apple reported blockbuster earnings for its most recent quarter, but the numbers show a slight dip in year-over-year iPhone revenue, probably not a surprise, showing Apple Intelligence did not boost sales that they had hoped, although it introduced sort of of at the end of the quarter.

Speaker 5 Microsoft reported a 12% year-over-year rise in revenue, although its cloud business is slowing, and Meta beat expectations with revenue rising 21% in the last quarter.

Speaker 5 Really big performance from Meta. Tesla mostly missed expectations on earnings and revenue with $25 billion in quarterly revenue.
Automotive revenue fell 8%.

Speaker 5 These earnings were announced during the initial DeepSeek Frenzy last week. There's questions about the AI spending plans.
Microsoft has earmarked $80 billion for AI this year.

Speaker 5 Meta has pledged as much as $65 billion. Let's talk about,

Speaker 5 obviously, tariffs probably may or may not affect them. And at the same time, they've pledged fealty to Trump in one way or another.

Speaker 5 Another things to throw in as Meta is reporting in talks to reincorporating Texas or another state, according to the Wall Street Journal, out of Delaware.

Speaker 5 It has to do with certain lawsuits that Mark Zuckerberg is facing, I believe. But Texas seems to be the place where they all have, is their safe space.

Speaker 5 Thoughts about the earnings?

Speaker 33 Yeah, like they continue to do, I mean, all of them.

Speaker 4 It just went from sort of better, you know, good, better, best.

Speaker 29 I don't think you've seen any chill around earnings.

Speaker 46 The thing I find most interesting is that

Speaker 24 all of them have essentially said we're going big at

Speaker 21 AI, except for Apple in terms of CapEx.

Speaker 27 And no one is thinking that Apple is the dumb one right now.

Speaker 30 Apple said we're going to take sort of a wait and see approach, and we're going to leverage other people's technology and investments. And Apple just continues to, you know, sort of overperform.

Speaker 37 And then the other one is

Speaker 29 Meta using their kind of AI ad technology.

Speaker 31 They continue to serve more ads, more targeted, more effective.

Speaker 43 It's almost like what Tim Cook did to Meta was similar to what we did to China around AI, and that is we forced, or Tim Cook with their opt-in kind of trying to kneecap Meta actually inspired them to figure out a workaround where now their ad stack is much more robust and much more AI driven.

Speaker 24 And just as we held kind of sophisticated

Speaker 30 chip technology from China, which forced them to come up with a workaround that might, in fact, disrupt American AI, Apple sort of is, no one is criticizing Apple now for not making these enormous announcements about just these staggering investments.

Speaker 5 Do you see any effect of the deep seek? That came at the end of the quarter, obviously. And it did

Speaker 5 shake up the stock market and people worried about the spending.

Speaker 33 This is my

Speaker 49 thesis right now, and is that similar that AI may be like, I mean, there's three layers to AI, loosely speaking, buckets.

Speaker 58 There's the infrastructure layer, the NVIDIA guys, there's the LLMs, the Anthropics, the OpenAIs, perplexity in there.

Speaker 30 And then there's the application layer, an Expedia or an Airbnb or whoever comes up with AI to do more sophisticated things or make their services better.

Speaker 22 They're the customer layer.

Speaker 42 I wonder if this is going to end up being like the airline industry and the PC industry, where there's a massive increase in economic value and productivity, but no one company is able to capture the majority of revenues similar to the way people are banking that Microsoft, OpenAI, and NVIDIA are going to be able to capture it.

Speaker 17 Now, Intel captured a ton of revenue and shareholder value because they were the brains inside of PCs.

Speaker 48 I was on the board of Gateway Computer.

Speaker 64 Do you remember them?

Speaker 5 Oh, of course, Ted Waite.

Speaker 53 Yeah. We, okay, get this.

Speaker 55 PCs changed the world.

Speaker 11 Are you on that board?

Speaker 4 What?

Speaker 44 I was on the board of Gateway Computer.

Speaker 17 I know.

Speaker 73 Talk about the weakest flex in the world.

Speaker 5 No wonder what happened to it. No, sorry.
Sorry. Did I say that?

Speaker 21 Anyways, so we were the second largest manufacturer of computers.

Speaker 41 Think about it.

Speaker 55 If someone had said 100 years ago, PCs or 50 years, PCs,

Speaker 21 these supercomputers that cost the government billions of dollars, we're going to be able to put one on on every desk.

Speaker 64 What would the market cap of that company be?

Speaker 17 PC manufacturers, Dell for a little while, but not anyone else, Lenovo, ASUS, Compaq, Packard Belt, remember all these companies?

Speaker 23 None of them got anywhere, maybe with the exception of Dell,

Speaker 21 in a product that revolutionized the world.

Speaker 4 That's a really good analogy.

Speaker 12 God,

Speaker 4 you can't do that. Every once in a while, right? You really do.

Speaker 5 I hadn't thought about that.

Speaker 46 Well, I'm not done.

Speaker 17 I'm not done.

Speaker 8 So the airline industry, I'm about to get on a plane and in eight and a half hours, I'm going to be in fucking Disney World.

Speaker 23 For like, now, granted, I'm going to spend a shit ton of money because I'm a narcissist, but I could do it for $400.

Speaker 77 I could skirt along the surface of the atmosphere at eight tenths the speed of sound for almost no money, almost no money, as opposed to getting scurvy or having to eat my niece

Speaker 17 through the passage of the Andes or the Rockies, which they had to do 150 years ago.

Speaker 67 Commercial jet transportation.

Speaker 4 Go ahead.

Speaker 77 But you see what I'm saying? Yes.

Speaker 35 Jet, commercial jet transportation has been remarkable.

Speaker 16 And guess what?

Speaker 60 The airlines have lost more money than they've made because there's no barriers of entry.

Speaker 32 Everyone copied each other and all of the value was recognized by the general public.

Speaker 47 And I now believe after what I saw with DeepSeek, by the way, I just fucking love that Sam Altman was copying everything and then someone copied him.

Speaker 16 Karma's a bitch, Sam.

Speaker 41 Anyways, this might be a tectonic shift.

Speaker 39 And I'm drunk on this idea.

Speaker 45 I'm intoxicated by this idea that AI might be the airline or the PC industry where there's enormous value created and it's all captured by consumers and the public and the Commonwealth, but no one company is able to capture the trillions of dollars in value that we become used to in big tech.

Speaker 5 So who's the Microsoft? Who's the Google? Anyway, let me note. You most noted OpenAI.
They're in talks to raise $40 billion in a funding round, which would value the company as high as $300 billion.

Speaker 5 SoftBank would lead the round, investing between $15 and $25 billion.

Speaker 5 There were several good Masio Shison things. I've forgotten how much success he's had, too, even though he's had so many disasters.
He's like one or the other. It's fascinating.

Speaker 5 I looked at Lionel Barber's book called Gambling Man, which was really quite good. I recommend it.
Open AI was valued at $157 billion in October.

Speaker 5 Meanwhile, Sam is giving competition some credit on Reddit in AMA this weekend. When asked if OpenAI would show users all of the thinking steps, Altman said yes and give credit to R1,

Speaker 5 also known as DeepSeek. When asked to consider a more open source approach like Meta's Lama, he said the company was discussing doing so and he feels we've been on the wrong side of history.

Speaker 5 What do you think of him admitting the company needs to make changes? And of course, this fundraising round. He certainly moves fast, I'll tell you that.

Speaker 69 I have never heard a bell

Speaker 32 signaling the top like the fucking gong of Macio Hussain saying he's going to invest 50 billion in Open AI.

Speaker 5 15, 15.

Speaker 30 I read that it was going to be as much as 45.

Speaker 19 It's 15.

Speaker 5 No, 15 and 25 billion. There's a $40 billion fundraising and he's going to be 15 or 25 billion of it.

Speaker 32 So 15 of a $40 billion round at a valuation I read that is greater than the valuation on ByteDance right now at somewhere between 300 and 350 billion.

Speaker 5 Yes, that's correct.

Speaker 39 So when Masuyoshi-san says we need to be crazy, he's living up to it.

Speaker 35 I think this will be,

Speaker 64 I think this will go down is arguably in terms of gross tonnage, gross capital lost.

Speaker 55 I think this is just so fucking ridiculous.

Speaker 5 Not a fan. You're thinking Wheatwork here versus one of the others where he's made a ton of money.

Speaker 60 Wheatwork was renting death space.

Speaker 35 It wasn't a tech company.

Speaker 33 This is a tech company.

Speaker 17 There's a non-zero probability that given how smart Sam is, given this unbelievable technology, which I'm using 50 times a day, they will figure out a way.

Speaker 12 I don't see how it right now, given the fact that the Chinese appear to have come up with something very robust for a fraction or less, the lack of barriers of entry, the regulatory issues, I don't see how this is

Speaker 25 today

Speaker 33 one of the 15 most valuable companies in the world.

Speaker 11 Now, what they're saying is for Masayoshi-san to get his limited partners the return they expect with the risk here, he's saying this will be one of the five or seven most valuable companies within three years in the world.

Speaker 63 This to me is an asymmetrically, incredibly bad bet.

Speaker 4 And he is known for, and to be fair, he did ARM.

Speaker 37 He had a big win there.

Speaker 64 He's had some wins, but his vision funds, his vision funds have underperformed the market.

Speaker 70 He himself is a great entrepreneur.

Speaker 64 SoftBank or his telco has done really well, but the funds themselves have underperformed the benchmarks.

Speaker 63 And to me,

Speaker 43 this is literally, I saw the valuation here.

Speaker 21 And when I look at the risks facing OpenAI, the fact they have no vertical distribution, they don't, even if AI ends up being as big as it is, even if I'm wrong, and there is private company capture along the lines of what cloud and smartphones were.

Speaker 54 There's so many competitors who have direct distribution or existing relationships, whether it's Microsoft that has a direct relationship with 97% of every corporation over a million dollars in the world, whether it's Apple with their iPhones, whether it's Anthropic, which has a large investment from Amazon, where 80% of households are in a monogamous relationship via Prime.

Speaker 21 And then there's OpenAI, which Masayoshi-san is telling his limited partners that this valuation is going to be one of the seven most valuable companies in the world in the next 36 months.

Speaker 48 I just think it's nuts.

Speaker 5 And gambling man, he's a gambling

Speaker 4 gambling man.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it's really interesting to look at his history because he really has gotten some huge wins and some enormous. And WeWork obviously was his most famous one, but there's been others.

Speaker 5 Um, what do you think of Sam shifting this? Like, shifting, oh, yes, deep seek, hmm, and then also uh, the open source thing. Like a lot of the Facebook people, Yan La Kun was like, huh, interesting.

Speaker 5 Cause they've been touting, you know, open source, of course, the whole time.

Speaker 7 I just think if you go to OpenAI right now and type in, what is karma, there's a picture of Sam Altman crawling everyone's information and stealing it.

Speaker 21 And then when he goes to sleep, someone crawls his information and steals from him.

Speaker 5 People have noted that.

Speaker 63 I just, I think this is such comeuppance.

Speaker 54 from OpenAI.

Speaker 5 So what happens to this company?

Speaker 39 I think it probably ends up being an amazing company doing amazing things.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 39 the limiteds at the Vision Fund go, what the fuck were we thinking investing at $350 billion

Speaker 49 valuation?

Speaker 48 I don't, this guy is so good.

Speaker 42 The technology is so amazing.

Speaker 39 I'm not suggesting it's not going to be an incredible company.

Speaker 5 Not a WeWork is what you're saying.

Speaker 4 Not a WeWork here.

Speaker 21 WeWork was literally the definition of insanity.

Speaker 21 Let's create an app for scheduling the conference room and call ourselves a tech company. Let's buy office space for a million dollars and lease it out at 200,000 a year just to show growth.

Speaker 15 That'd make no fucking sense.

Speaker 52 There is a non-zero probability here that they lead the revolution that's the most seminal change in technology in history.

Speaker 68 I am now betting that the majority of that capture is going to be by the larger economy.

Speaker 18 And based on the fact they have no vertical distribution, based on the fact that China has popped up and said, hey, we're here again.

Speaker 60 And guess what?

Speaker 41 We're making similar shit for cheaper as we've always done based on the fact their competitors have vertical distribution.

Speaker 18 Stupid fucking idea.

Speaker 60 If he raises money, if they were raising money at 50 billion, I'd try, I'd be calling Maasa and say, I think you're amazing.

Speaker 21 I've been a Sprint customer back from the 90s.

Speaker 42 Can I get on this deal?

Speaker 35 At 350 billion?

Speaker 5 Yeah, it was 157 in October. So that is kind of a leap at this time.
You know, I think they'll.

Speaker 5 One thing that OpenAI and Sam Alton have is this ability to be flexible and say one thing on Tuesday and a very different thing on Thursday, you know, whatever it takes.

Speaker 5 The open source thing is sort of interesting as they move forward.

Speaker 5 Obviously, the Microsoft won that open close thing with Apple many years ago, although you would say you'd rather have been Apple in many ways.

Speaker 5 So it'll be interesting what will happen to this company.

Speaker 5 I sort of wonder, you know, I've always thought, is it Netscape or is it Google? That's always been my question about them. And it'll be really interesting to see how he

Speaker 5 navigates himself.

Speaker 45 What do you think?

Speaker 5 I have not done enough reporting to understand what's what's happening here. When you see him saying we've been on the wrong side of history, that's quite a statement, right?

Speaker 5 What does that mean precisely?

Speaker 5 Consider a more open source approach. You better hurry.
That's all I have to say if he's going to want to dominate that. And in that case, it's not quite the same company, but it is hard.

Speaker 5 As you said, vertical distribution is critical, I think, here. If you're going to do anything, maybe a merger.
I kept thinking a merger with someone, Microsoft, Apple. Someone like that.

Speaker 54 Yeah, but

Speaker 15 no one's going to pay $350.

Speaker 5 No one's going to pay $300 billion. not going to pay too much for this muffler.
Yeah, it's a good muffler.

Speaker 49 And by the way, the people investing in that round, they're not looking for $350 billion.

Speaker 64 They're looking for a trillion back.

Speaker 24 And guess what?

Speaker 42 If I type into OpenAI or ChatGPT in the voice of Kara Swisher, specifically referencing chapter seven on,

Speaker 17 you know, whatever it is, Microsoft from her book, Burn Book, it's remarkably accurate.

Speaker 21 in your voice referencing that chapter.

Speaker 67 They have crawled your book.

Speaker 36 They are using your IP without paying you.

Speaker 31 So DeepSeek, bring it on.

Speaker 55 Copy that bitch is do to him what he's been doing to us.

Speaker 35 I am so here for DeepSeek.

Speaker 42 It is so weird to be rooting for a Chinese company, the Canadians, and the Germans.

Speaker 5 You're rooting for the Chinese, the Canadians, and the Germans. Anyway, let's get on a quick break.
We come back more on Elon's hostile takeover of the U.S.

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Speaker 5 Scott, we're back. Elon Musk's Doge now has access, as I said, to the federal payment system.

Speaker 5 Musk criticized the U.S. Treasury Department.
Obviously, they're trying to close down USAID. He said he's doing it on instructions from President Trump, and he's doing what he said.

Speaker 5 They're saying that there's stuff,

Speaker 5 obviously, the concern is privacy and and sensitive and classified information being accessed by a bunch of kids. That's a worry.
That's sort of been a narrative around over the weekend.

Speaker 5 Obviously, the way they did it was sort of in the middle of the weekend. They crashed in.
All kinds of people left and tried to stop them. It's quite a dramatic thing.

Speaker 5 And then Congress has no ability to stop him in some way.

Speaker 5 It is concerning that the world's richest man has and a private citizen that has contracts with massive contracts of the federal government has this much access, and now seemingly has the power to close down entire departments.

Speaker 5 They think it's a, obviously, I'm doing a on with some of the experts of what he did at Twitter and is doing here.

Speaker 5 But it is one way to take over a government is to be doing this.

Speaker 5 And of course, they're arguing that they're trying to save money and it's the only way to do it, but they're flinging all kinds of unsupportable allegations about different things.

Speaker 5 But of course, that chaos is part of the plan here. Any thoughts on this?

Speaker 48 Well, when you have the world's richest man who can deny people their, you know, get in the way of their Medicare, Social Security, veterans benefits unilaterally based on his crew that shows up.

Speaker 29 I mean, it's the ultimate we complain about regulatory capture and private capture.

Speaker 38 Richest man in the world is now have access to who gets money from the federal government without the approval or the oversight of our elected representatives.

Speaker 31 So

Speaker 50 again, there's just so much crazy shit going on that we never thought we would see that people don't seem to be, they're just, they're,

Speaker 65 you know, it's triage right now.

Speaker 29 There's so many incoming projectiles at everybody that they don't know how to respond and absorb this.

Speaker 29 But he is now kind of the puppet master.

Speaker 21 And the notion that he can go into a website and turn off payments for social services or government services or shut off foreign aid at his sole discretion.

Speaker 67 It's just

Speaker 5 he's doing it on the president's orders.

Speaker 17 Well, that's fair because he's appointed by the president and the president can remove him.

Speaker 50 But my impression is based on the tariffs, the market's reaction to taking a stock op that basically, okay, you have one guy who the president has entrusted to make these decisions real time.

Speaker 9 And it's

Speaker 30 you know, we the one of the downsides or the upsides of a bureaucracy, and then what people would argue correctly is sometimes an inefficient government, is that we don't let any, you know, power corrupts and absolute power, absolutely corrupts.

Speaker 48 And what we have here is absolute power.

Speaker 58 And what do you know? It's the world's wealthiest man.

Speaker 30 And it goes back to the same thing.

Speaker 31 There has to be a check on this American experience where we just have decided that money translates to not only power, but to rights.

Speaker 21 And we are transferring more and more wealth, which subsequently means more and more power.

Speaker 44 and probably most excitingly, more and more rights at the expense of poor people.

Speaker 42 And what's going to happen to every company that isn't owned by Musk?

Speaker 67 And I look at these tariffs and I'm like, this is brilliant.

Speaker 31 He's figured out a way to create a tariff that pretty much exempts.

Speaker 45 Tesla. Everyone's like, well, Tesla sells a lot of cars into China.

Speaker 21 No, all the cars being sold in China are manufactured in China.

Speaker 45 They're not subject to tariffs.

Speaker 34 Anyways,

Speaker 19 I I find it very distressing and very un-American.

Speaker 5 There are very, very little.

Speaker 5 It's interesting to see whether you saw those protests in Germany or not seeing them in this country, whether, but Musk's favorables are quite low, really quite low, considering most a lot of people look up to him, which is interesting because it does look, especially with this, this crew he's got around him, it feels like a movie someone made up, right?

Speaker 5 Some of this stuff. And one of, they're all kids.

Speaker 5 They're all kids of some sort that are around him or people that work for, they're all his people that are coming in and demanding to see everything, demanding their,

Speaker 5 you know, they're like the they're like the evil genius bar essentially that's going into all these places. And they did take over what was essentially the genius bar for the government, the U.S.

Speaker 5 Digital Service, and they've renamed it the U.S. Adoge Service.

Speaker 5 And that gives them access.

Speaker 5 These were already set up, these offices in every

Speaker 5 federal government facility and every department. And, you know,

Speaker 5 some of them literally was just a college, was just a camp counselor.

Speaker 5 And one kid did this astonishing computing around decoding these ancient scrolls, brilliant people who had brilliant coding skills and brilliant computer skills.

Speaker 5 But it's this sort of team. One guy is called Big Balls.
That's his nickname, which I doubt he has them. That's what his nickname is.
I bet they're small balls.

Speaker 5 It's just, the whole thing feels so bizarre and people are freaking out because I don't think many people can do anything, right? What do you do when he does this?

Speaker 5 It doesn't feel like Congress has a handle on it. The Democrats do not control Congress.

Speaker 5 It feels like it's in plain sight, just this is how they're going to go through every federal agency and do this unless they're stopped by courts. That's, you know, which is interesting.

Speaker 5 Now, Ezra Klein was making a really interesting argument, which I like. I'm going to read from it.

Speaker 5 There's a reason Trump is doing all this through executive orders rather than submitting these directives as legislation to pass through Congress.

Speaker 5 A more powerful executive could persuade Congress to eliminate the spending he opposes to reform the civil service, to give himself powers of hiring and firing that he seeks, to write those changes into legislation, make them more durable, and allow him to argue their merits in a more strategic way.

Speaker 5 Even if Trump's aim is to bring the civil service to heel, to get to rid it of his opponents and to turn it to his own ends, he would be better off arguing that he is simply trying to bring high-performance management culture of Silicon Valley to the federal government.

Speaker 5 You never want a power grab to look like a power grab. I thought that was exactly on point.
I don't know what you think. He's calling it weak.
This is a weak flex.

Speaker 21 I think almost every life lesson can be extracted from one of the seasons of Game of Thrones.

Speaker 58 And I feel like Elon Musk right now is

Speaker 46 the high sparrow.

Speaker 5 Oh, that's not good for him.

Speaker 22 And Toman is President Trump.

Speaker 65 It feels to me like

Speaker 30 Trump is just kind of massaging and coordinating everything here and shows up with these really impressive, probably very hardworking, intensely smart group of people who show total falty to Musk like a god.

Speaker 21 And I bet Trump admires that.

Speaker 30 And Trump says to him, show that same sort of loyalty to him. And Trump says, this guy's smart.
He fired 80% of Twitter staff.

Speaker 50 This is exactly what we need in the government.

Speaker 24 And they just go at it. And

Speaker 31 I don't think at this point, Trump has the regulatory checks to even slow him down unless he were to decide to fire him.

Speaker 43 So I think he's just going after it so fast and so furious.

Speaker 5 He's his junkyard dog. That's what he is.
He's just, he doesn't care what he does to get there.

Speaker 21 Yeah, it just, it feels, I mean, there's a component of it that I understand. There's a kernel of like value.

Speaker 30 You know, it's you can.

Speaker 5 Something has to shake it up. Something has to shake it up.

Speaker 43 You can see the importance of shock value and occasionally you do need to kind of go in with a hammer, not a scalpel.

Speaker 43 It strikes me that this is just so reckless that it's going to take, it's going to erode decades.

Speaker 25 What do you think the morale is like? Yeah.

Speaker 5 This is what he did at Twitter. This is the same tactics.

Speaker 5 You know, one of the things that, you know, when they were talking about, oh, look, the word fork in the road is in the, um, is in the letter, Elon Musk wanted you to see that.

Speaker 5 He wanted you to know it was, you know, it was me. Tell them it was me.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 5 Like he wanted, he wants people to have us to, and the journalists to write that he's trying to copy what he did at Twitter, right?

Speaker 5 Which, which is, which is a lot of these moves, you know, he remember he sees the systems, fired people, took over people's, there was worries about privacy.

Speaker 5 It's the same kind of playbook that he has. They're sleeping in the office.
That's his favorite thing to do. Apparently, they have beds at the Office of Personnel Management, bringing in his cronies.

Speaker 5 This is the same, you know, it's like watching Fast and Furious over and over again, except they're a bunch of geeks, I guess.

Speaker 5 This is what he wants to do. But I agree with you.
I think it's, it's really, I do think it's the mark of a loser, and he wants to be seen as a king and so he's he's sicking his his

Speaker 5 this guy on people and to scare them and I'm not so sure they're so easily scared.

Speaker 5 That's I think this FBI agent that pushed back a lot of these people at these agencies are pushing back and we'll see we'll see if Congress has any kind of balls, which they don't in any way.

Speaker 5 They kind of like it in some weird way. The Republicans certainly do.
And

Speaker 5 the concerns, of course, are privacy and the ability for these people to download all this information about people.

Speaker 5 We'll see why these, what explanations they have, of course, but let's just say Scott and I don't trust them on first blush. All right, one more quick break.
We'll be back for wins and fails.

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Speaker 5 Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails.

Speaker 9 It strikes me that you need a better strategy than showing up at churches and schools and workplaces for these immigration raids.

Speaker 26 I don't, I just find it so ironic that the agencies charge with locating people, okay,

Speaker 47 starting with people who've been detained for a crime, I get it.

Speaker 21 But it just strikes me as so ironic that

Speaker 21 they have determined the place to find these undocumented workers is at work, church, or school.

Speaker 64 Doesn't that make them the most American of us?

Speaker 12 I mean,

Speaker 23 hard workers. It's so ironic.

Speaker 5 Largely hard workers.

Speaker 12 But it appears that we've decided that if we want to find undocumented workers, we should go to a workplace or they're sending their kids to school or they're going to worship.

Speaker 13 It's just so, I find it so, so telling that maybe,

Speaker 66 maybe, I mean,

Speaker 64 I'm not about, I'm not against deporting people, but I find it illuminating that, okay, we didn't wake up one day and just find out that 17% of people on construction work sites were undocumented workers.

Speaker 21 And what I don't think we've come to grips with in terms of an honest conversation around this is one, I do believe, I don't think you can have open borders, but two, the reason why we have let this go so far is that the most, if the secret sauce of America is immigration, the most profitable part of that secret sauce has been illegal immigration.

Speaker 15 And we don't want to have an honest conversation about it because they come in, they take care of grandma, they pick our crops, they build our houses, and then when the work dries up, they leave without taking Social Security.

Speaker 30 They pay Social Security taxes, but they never stick around for Social Security.

Speaker 58 They actually don't lean on our social services because they're worried about being deported.

Speaker 42 And have you seen what's happened at construction sites across America?

Speaker 24 They're empty.

Speaker 65 People aren't showing up.

Speaker 49 So I wonder if this strategy is just of

Speaker 21 trying to shock and

Speaker 58 intimidate is very short-sighted and not good for the economy and not going to accomplish what we need to accomplish in terms of having a sane immigration strategy.

Speaker 37 That's my, you know, anyways, I, I, that, that, call it two fails in a row here.

Speaker 21 The other real fail, again, under the auspices of flooding the zone with mendacious shit,

Speaker 21 you know, a foreign aid freeze, I think we spend about $70 billion or about $200 per citizen.

Speaker 42 And this is some of the things we do. You know, in Sudan, we support 634 soup kitchens that feed almost a million people.

Speaker 64 And Thailand and Myanmar, refugee hospitals funded by the U.S.

Speaker 9 are closing their doors.

Speaker 64 Patients with tuberculosis and life-threatening conditions are being carried away on makeshift stretchers.

Speaker 48 In Africa, I mean,

Speaker 73 The Democratic Republic of Congo, where U.S.

Speaker 55 aid supported 4.5 million displaced people, verge of eradication.

Speaker 21 We were on the verge of eradicating diseases like malaria, malnutrition, because of private and public coordination.

Speaker 55 In Cambodia, where the U.S.

Speaker 54 was close to eliminating malaria, officials now fear the disease is making a comeback.

Speaker 5 Scott, it's not helping Americans. It's not helping Americans.
That's the stupidest argument.

Speaker 5 It does help Americans.

Speaker 11 I think the majority of Republicans, when if you sat them down and you said, for 200 bucks a year, this is the good we're going to do around the world, and this is the goodwill it's going to create, and these are the diseases we're going to eradicate, and this is how we're going to find refugees who are displaced in wars a shot at surviving.

Speaker 14 I think the majority would people go, here's $200, right on.

Speaker 5 I can't even, it's the cruelest. It's the cruelest and small, most petty and small-minded of cuts.
There's so many cruel and just like cutting, like we talked about last week, cutting the

Speaker 5 security details of people who worked for this country. It's so petty.
It's so small. It shows you the sheriff a little heart that we have at work here.

Speaker 77 But let's put the morality aside.

Speaker 43 Say you decide, look,

Speaker 21 I want that $200 to go to American kids.

Speaker 13 Full stop.

Speaker 17 Okay, I understand the argument.

Speaker 24 I don't agree with it, but I understand it.

Speaker 43 That $200,

Speaker 11 that void we're leaving, Russia and China are going to step into that void.

Speaker 39 They're going to find

Speaker 21 people willing to be allies and who will fund groups.

Speaker 43 We have this sense of security, this cold comfort that there aren't people out there who would come for us, kill us, and take our shit away.

Speaker 49 And one of the reasons they don't is because they can't, because generally speaking, the vast majority of nations and the vast majority of people around the world might find us obnoxious, they might find us gluttonous, they might find us arrogant, but they think at the end of the day, we're trying to do the right thing.

Speaker 23 That we're the people who are funding that hospital, that when there's refugees, when there are homeless people and there are maternity wards being shelled in Ukraine, that American charities show up.

Speaker 68 When, I mean, we're seen as the good guys.

Speaker 21 And that pays enormous, that pays enormous dividends that

Speaker 69 we don't recognize because the homeland hasn't been attacked since September 11th.

Speaker 68 So even if you think, even if you don't make the moral argument or you don't accept the moral argument, just from a security standpoint, from a political power standpoint, this is the best 200 bucks.

Speaker 5 Canadians are booing us, people. Canadians don't boo anybody.
Let's just say, Canadians.

Speaker 11 Did you just see the national anthem?

Speaker 72 They started booing.

Speaker 5 They're booing us. They're booing us.
Anyway, all right, I'll start with mine.

Speaker 5 My win obviously has to go to Beyoncé on her album of the year.

Speaker 4 Grammy wins. I'm glad you're lighting it up.
You know what?

Speaker 5 Watching the Grammys was great. They weren't, the vibe they had was like, fuck you, all of you.
We're going to be black. We're going to be interesting.
We're going to be talented.

Speaker 5 We're going to be enjoyable.

Speaker 5 There was not a lot of, the vibe was so good at

Speaker 5 at the Grammys. I'm sorry.

Speaker 5 They weren't doing a lot of the virtue signaling at all. In fact, they were just like, we're fucking better.
We're cooler. We're so cool.
We are so creative. Anyway, Beyonce's at the top of that.

Speaker 5 I love Cowboy Carter. I love that album.
There's a lot of albums I love this year. Kendrick Lamar was, I liked a lot.
But this one, I really enjoyed and played it over and over again.

Speaker 5 She's been nominated four times in this category.

Speaker 5 This was her first album to win it and deserve it. Go listen to it.
It's really a wonderful album in lots of ways and really fun, actually, super fun and really moving, and everything else.

Speaker 5 So, congratulations, Beyonce. I know it's been hard for you to make it in this business.

Speaker 5 I also really enjoyed watching Taylor Swift dance her ass off throughout, no matter what. She made kind of a little, like an adorable spectacle of herself, dancing with kids, dancing in coats.

Speaker 5 And also, Janelle Monet did a Michael Jackson dance. Everybody, and

Speaker 5 Lady Gaga did an amazing duet of California Dreaming with Bruno Mars. Really wonderful.
The whole Grammys was wonderful, wonderful, wonderful.

Speaker 5 My fail, besides this ridiculous antics of Elon Musk, which continues into the fucking millennial, make Elon Go Away is a really good thing to happen. He should go to Mars again.

Speaker 5 I think he should realize his dream. We should spend all that foreign aid money we're not spending on sending him to Mars immediately.

Speaker 5 But was an interview that Mitch McConnell did with Leslie Stahl on 60 Minutes, which is under attack because the owners are trying to pay off Trump through settling a lawsuit, as we talked about last week.

Speaker 5 But this is a great interview with Mitch McConnell where he goes, you know, she's like, you wrote this and this and this about Trump being a terrible person.

Speaker 5 He goes, well, that was a private conversation. And then she goes, well, it's in your book.
And he's like, yes, it is.

Speaker 5 He's just, this guy had every opportunity to stop Trump in a very significant way and did not do so. And it mystifies me me that he could act like he doesn't like him.

Speaker 5 Just, he doesn't get the right not to. He facilitated Trump.

Speaker 5 And to try to pretend he didn't is really, he's a loathsome toad. He really is of all the people.

Speaker 5 Cause you can't hate someone and then be the reason they're still here and give him the lifeline that he did, richly did not deserve. So Mitch McConnell, you also should go away.
You really should.

Speaker 5 You've been a real

Speaker 43 he did vote against Hexeth, which is kind of he did, finally.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 15 I feel like that's Hannibal Lecter deciding he's a vegan on his deathbed.

Speaker 11 I mean, it's just like, it doesn't do us a lot of good now, right?

Speaker 5 Exactly. You're no John McCain, my friend.
You're just no John McCain.

Speaker 5 And I just act trying to be like that right now. I don't know what he's going for, but I would like his tour to be over and I'd like him to go back to Kentucky and just get the fuck out of here.

Speaker 5 Just leave. It's all your fault,

Speaker 5 Mr. McConnell.
Anyway,

Speaker 5 that is my fail.

Speaker 52 I have a quick question for you.

Speaker 45 Sure.

Speaker 9 Is Edward Snowden a traitor?

Speaker 5 Complex topic.

Speaker 5 I did an interview with him many years ago, and I think what he uncovered was astonishingly disturbing about the government spying on citizens. So in that way, a good thing.

Speaker 5 In a bad thing, the way he did it, I think there's all kinds of hair all over him in ways that are disturbing.

Speaker 5 I have talked to many national security people who find him to be a traitor, and they have very persuasive arguments. I have a hard time deciding about that.
I do.

Speaker 5 Even after doing the interview, and I hate to say that because I think that in many ways he is and in

Speaker 5 many ways he isn't. I don't know what to say.
That's where I am. I don't know what else to say.
I think it's a complex topic, let's just say.

Speaker 5 And they did make reforms after he did it. But at the same time, the way he did it was traitorous, too.

Speaker 5 Why did you ask that?

Speaker 11 Because, well,

Speaker 46 I thought that was the most interesting moment of it, but you now as well no longer, in my opinion, are qualified to run our National Intelligence Service.

Speaker 4 I think that's a layup of a question.

Speaker 12 All right. Okay.

Speaker 32 I'm not suggesting what was found out might not ultimately be good for America, but he's full stop, 100% a traitor.

Speaker 4 All right.

Speaker 5 I've heard,

Speaker 5 I'm usually with the national security people on this thing, and I think he did hurt our national security apparatus.

Speaker 73 You lost my vote. I'll vote for you.

Speaker 38 Secretary of Defense, I'm in for you.

Speaker 5 I just have a smidge of I don't love the government, what they did. So anyway, we want to hear from you.
Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind.

Speaker 5 Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show. We're calling 855-51-PIT.
Elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe, I talked to Ben Stiller about severance on on. Let's listen to a clip.

Speaker 79 There's so many different ideas of what, you know, severance could be a metaphor for.

Speaker 79 And I think we all do sever to a certain extent when we, you know, check out, if you have a drink or, you know, you take a gummy, or you, you know, watch a TV show, or if you go on your phone.

Speaker 79 I mean, we all find ways to cope with the everyday sort of, you know, torrent of stuff that's coming at us in life.

Speaker 5 Right. It's also, I go to hardware stores and browse.

Speaker 5 What do you do to sever, Scott? Like, we already know gummies, breath work, what?

Speaker 17 I hang out with my dogs.

Speaker 12 Sometimes I take a gummy.

Speaker 6 I like to write.

Speaker 33 I just, the evening is

Speaker 62 my alone alone kind of peace peacetime.

Speaker 6 And I also occasionally,

Speaker 7 if I have both a gummy and

Speaker 10 a couple makers and ginger, I put in my AirPods and I dance 80s music without my, without my shirt on.

Speaker 6 I dance in the mirror like a 15 or what I imagine like

Speaker 9 a gay 15 year old teenager would do.

Speaker 5 I so want to see that.

Speaker 12 I so want to see that.

Speaker 5 Can you put a camera in your house so I can watch that and then I will sever watching that? That would make me happy.

Speaker 48 It would literally, it would probably, it would probably decrease the amount of sex people that, people have that night by like, everyone would just be so freaked out and so unattracted to everybody.

Speaker 5 I would like to sever doing that. I would like you to do that for me.
I want that as a gift.

Speaker 5 I want a video where I can make it.

Speaker 47 DJs and Tom Petty.

Speaker 56 Little bit of edible, CBD, and sativa with the makers and ginger.

Speaker 11 Daddy's got the moves.

Speaker 53 Hello, ladies. All right.

Speaker 23 Do you believe in love at first sight or should I walk by again?

Speaker 5 I don't know what else to say. Anyway, that's the show.
We'll We'll be back on Friday for more. Scott, read us out.
Dance us out.

Speaker 2 Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin.

Speaker 50 Ernie Interside engineered this episode.

Speaker 68 Thanks also to Drew Burroughs, Ms.

Speaker 2 Severio, and Dan Shallan. Nishad Kurua is Vox Media's executive producer of audio.
Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 2 Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

Speaker 1 You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/slash pod.

Speaker 2 We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

Speaker 1 Kara, have a great rest of the week.

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