Musk vs. Altman, Trump Admin's DEI Crackdown, and Netflix Stock Surge

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Speaker 2 Support for this show comes from Upwork. If you're overextended and understaffed, Upwork Business Plus helps you bring in top quality freelancers fast.

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Speaker 2 Support for this show comes from Upwork. If you're overextended and understaffed, Upwork Business Plus helps you bring in top quality freelancers fast.

Speaker 2 You can get instant access to the top 1% of talent on Upwork in marketing, design, AI, and more, ready to jump in and take work off your plate.

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Speaker 3 Let me just say, let's go around and give tips to really successful people.

Speaker 1 Well, isn't that what this show is? Isn't that what Pivot is? Yes, it is. Unsolicited advice.

Speaker 3 Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.
I'm Kara Swisher.

Speaker 1 I'm I'm Scott Galloway, and I endorse Lauren Sanchez's dress code.

Speaker 3 I do, too.

Speaker 1 I'm here for them. I mean, it's singular double breast chest.

Speaker 1 Tell me.

Speaker 3 Listen, we at Pivot do not like talking about people's personal. foibles and looks and everything else.
We don't. We don't.
We never do.

Speaker 1 But who is we, white man? I very much enjoy objectifying people. I understand.
I'm an equal opportunity objectifier. You got to give me that.

Speaker 3 Here's what I think got Scott going. Megan Megan Kelly went on a rant about Lauren Sanchez's lady parts.
It was really kind of strange and weird about, you know, essentially calling her a whore.

Speaker 3 That's what she was essentially doing.

Speaker 3 And I felt like I ran to her defense. I'm like, if she wants to wear a boostier in the Capitol Rotunda.
Great.

Speaker 1 She looked good.

Speaker 3 It was sexy and I like it. And we're, we're all for you, Lauren.

Speaker 3 We're not so much loving your boyfriend, but we really like your outfit. And, you know, whatever.

Speaker 3 I feel like people should wear what they want.

Speaker 1 I, you know what?

Speaker 1 I relate to her because when I'm on the beaches of Santa Peace, I wear a banana hammock, Espito, because it would just be unfair not to share this youth, this, this, this, this, this raging hot sexuality.

Speaker 1 You know, you have to put it in the window a little bit. Yeah, okay.
No, I'm serious. I thought she looked great.
Everyone was saying she wore a bra. I thought she looked great.

Speaker 3 Well, it was a bustiere. It's called the bustiere.

Speaker 1 Whatever. Okay.
I agree. I don't find people calling women sluts for wearing boostiers.
And he's banging a porn star and a woman who was in Playboy. Like, play to the crowd.

Speaker 3 It's apparently Boustier. Boustier is how you pronounce it.

Speaker 1 I just say yay.

Speaker 1 I just say yay.

Speaker 1 Megan wears sleeveless dresses. My guess is that's not her natural hair color.
And she wears form-fitting dresses because she's got fantastic genetic attributes and more power to her. And she,

Speaker 1 I think people should do what makes them feel right. I'm more, quite frankly, I'm more uncomfortable with the way Senator Fetterman showed up.

Speaker 1 Really?

Speaker 3 Oh, because he's sloppy.

Speaker 1 It's sloppy. He showed up in shorts.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's his thing, though. I mean, it's his brand.
He has to kind of wear that all the time. It's sort of like Richard Simmons.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but it's kind of like I'm bigger than you. And it's this whole, it's this whole Sam Bankman Freed thing.
Anyways, back to back to much more interesting topics.

Speaker 3 Anyway, Lauren, we're with you.

Speaker 1 We're with you. We're with you.

Speaker 3 Team Sanchez on the Boost dealer.

Speaker 1 Whatever.

Speaker 3 Yay for the Boostie.

Speaker 1 If Musk can have double-E breasts, so can she.

Speaker 1 No, I'm sorry. If Bezos.

Speaker 1 Oh, God.

Speaker 1 He's got big tits. That guy's got really big tits.

Speaker 3 He's got a set.

Speaker 1 He's got a set. Oh, my gosh.
It's all real. Every bit of it.

Speaker 1 No, no, no, not really. There's a definite amount.
Take it from me. There's a lot of HGH and testosterone going through those.

Speaker 3 Do you take that?

Speaker 1 No,

Speaker 1 I've been on testosterone for about two or three years for

Speaker 1 I'm aging Okay. And I want to be stronger in the gym and have longer erections.

Speaker 1 Would you like me to go into greater detail?

Speaker 3 Just, I'm curious. And no one ever asks, so I ask.

Speaker 1 But I go off it. Anyways, it's on it to try and make sure that I can still actually produce my own man juice, my own man gravy.
Wow.

Speaker 3 Oh, no.

Speaker 1 You didn't just say that word.

Speaker 1 Anyways, but all right, that's enough information. Thank you.
Okay.

Speaker 3 All right.

Speaker 1 Does it, does it affect you in any way at taking it?

Speaker 3 I'm just curious. I know steroids can make your penis smaller.
That's what I understand.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that would be difficult.

Speaker 3 We've got a lot to get to today.

Speaker 1 You've got a lot to get to. I'm just saying my nickname in college was Tripod.
I'm not going to say anything more.

Speaker 1 I'm not going to say anything more. That is a good thing.
Don't worry about that. Stop inquiring about my personal life.

Speaker 3 That's a boy's joke. That is a 12-year-old.

Speaker 1 You could up the level of your jokes. My other one was Anne-Eater.
Ant-eater. A no-more.
I'm not saying anymore. We're done.

Speaker 3 I'm not saying anymore. We're done with the boobs and penises now, people.

Speaker 3 Let's get to the news because there was not a dick measuring contest going on between Elon Musk and Sam Altman, uh, trolling each other to get Trump's favor and lavishly trying to get Trump's favor, including by Sam Altman.

Speaker 3 That was quite a tweet. Uh, by the way, Bill Gates is doing the same after having trashed him previously.
Anyway, whatever.

Speaker 3 It's a new day, apparently, kind of a scary new day in many ways, and we'll talk about that too. Uh, plus, new names in the mix for the TikTok deal.
We have a lot to get to today, Scott.

Speaker 3 We've got to get off of Lawrence and justice boobs. Anyway,

Speaker 3 this story is really disturbing, honestly. Federal employees have been warned if they don't report co-workers working in DEI and accessibility positions, they will face repercussions.

Speaker 3 The warning told employees to notify the Office of Personnel if they were aware of any change in position descriptions to obscure the connection to DEI. I think it's DEI truth, you know,

Speaker 3 is the email address, which is kind of frightening. Feels like 1984.
One employee told the New York Times they felt like they were being recruited into into the Gestapo.

Speaker 3 The Trump administration also called agency heads to place DEI roles on paid leave by Wednesday. They haven't fired them, but they're putting on pay leave.

Speaker 3 They're sort of, this is one of their promises to rid the government of DEI. And of course, at the same time, there's all these lawsuits trying to get corporations to pull back on those things.

Speaker 3 And some are dying it and others aren't. But it was really disturbing.
The last time they kind of did this, I think it was the Eisenhower administration. It was targeting gay people,

Speaker 3 report gay people,

Speaker 3 so that we can get them out of government.

Speaker 3 I'm not loving the report and commies. Yeah, I'm not loving the reporting thing.
Like, I don't,

Speaker 3 it's interesting because Amanda and I, I love your thoughts, but Amanda, I have a little bit of a thing.

Speaker 3 And I said, Biden administration shouldn't change the names of these jobs just to hide them and obscure them. They should make them fire these people in plain sight.

Speaker 3 That's to me, instead of trying to hide them away. At the same time, getting employees to report on each other.
What a, what a, that is a freakish thing to do. And

Speaker 3 it's really quite disturbing. I find it very disturbing and creates all kinds of different problems between employees.
It does feel has that kind of Gestapo-y feel to it. What do you think?

Speaker 1 I actually think that's the wrong analogy. I think the right, the correct analogy is, is the Stasi.
By the way,

Speaker 1 one of the best movies, most underrated movies, The Lives of Others, about an East German who eventually gets to the West and the life he led in East Germany.

Speaker 1 But essentially, there was currency and power in ratting out your neighbors. Ratting out.

Speaker 1 Over time, people started ratting out innocent people, and it created such a society of distrust that no one wanted to talk to their neighbors.

Speaker 3 Which was the point.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but it's really, well, okay, but it leads to everything that's horrible about America.

Speaker 1 And that is we used to be a group of people that when we bound together to try and help people, other Americans we didn't know, we were down with that because we knew that we had more in common with them.

Speaker 1 We had regard for them. We trusted them.
We generally assumed that other Americans were good people. So we were willing to invest.
We were willing to be drafted.

Speaker 1 You know, we had a certain comity of man as it related to other Americans. When you create this, this is just terrible for a culture.

Speaker 1 It also speaks to mismanagement in the sense that they should be able to figure out who these positions are without incenting people

Speaker 1 to rat on each other. But something you inspired another thought, and that is, I would argue that this is really

Speaker 1 not the first example, but the most brazen example the last two weeks about how much ridiculous, brazen, outrageous corruption and grift and general weirdness has taken place. And in any other era,

Speaker 1 there would have been non-stop coverage and shaming of exactly all the scenarios, the grift of

Speaker 1 these meme coins that the president launched. And you know what? I just don't think there's enough.
I think there's too much grift. They do it.

Speaker 3 They flood the grift zone.

Speaker 1 They've just flooded it. And I don't think people can focus.
And I don't think there's enough journalists out there to actually cover this and do actual reporting. Agreed.

Speaker 3 Agreed.

Speaker 3 And I think one of the things, we'll get to there were some layoffs in the CNN, and one thing that Mark Thompson said, which I do not agree with, and I think I can say it pretty clearly: that you take them at, you know, let's cover them.

Speaker 3 Let's not have an opinion. I think you can have an opinion once you do reporting.
And my opinion on this is snitches get stitches. That's,

Speaker 3 you know, that expression? Like, it's really, it's snitches. That's what you are if you do things like this.

Speaker 3 And again, if Trump wants to get DEI out of things, which by the way, probably targets women and people of color more in those positions, would be my guess, but I don't know.

Speaker 3 I don't have the statistics. If you want to get rid of that, get rid of it in plain sight and say you're doing it and find them.
and find the people and get rid of them. And that's how you do it.

Speaker 3 And if you really believe in your ridiculous obsession with DEI, then do it and be proud of your shitty behavior. That's my feeling, instead of forcing employees to rat on each other.
I hate rats.

Speaker 1 And you know how I feel about it. As it relates to DEI, I think there are likely government agencies that were DEI and affirmative action were needed, and I'm not sure they're as needed now.

Speaker 1 And I think in many instances, they create more problems than they solve. This is true.
So I'm not an enormous DEI fan. In government agencies where you might have 60% non-white or 30%.
not.

Speaker 1 In other words, the problem, and we should collectively celebrate this, a lot of the problem has been addressed, not all of it, but a lot of it.

Speaker 1 And oftentimes it ends up in propagating the exact things

Speaker 1 you're trying to solve for. Now, having said this, just some advice to younger people or people in the workplace.
A really smart strategy is that you always

Speaker 1 talk well of people behind their back. And that is you are the first person to acknowledge someone's work behind their back.
You're not kissing their ass.

Speaker 1 You talk up your colleagues. When someone does something good, you constantly talk well of people behind their back.
This is the polar fucking opposite. It is.

Speaker 1 It creates distrust. And by the way, if word gets out that you're the one narking on people.
Yeah, I know. Yeah, try and manage a group of people after that.

Speaker 3 Snitches get stitches.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 this is ugly. And also, just generally speaking.

Speaker 3 I don't like snitches.

Speaker 1 Couldn't they figure this shit out on their own?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I agree. Now, there's a difference between snitches and like something terrible happens in the workplace and you report it like a whistleblower, right? That is a different thing.

Speaker 3 This is snitches. You know what I mean? Like, I do think people, if their abuse is happening, should feel safe to whistleblow.

Speaker 3 But anyway.

Speaker 1 If it's a crime, but I'm actually a fan. I hate suggestion boxes.
I like identity. If

Speaker 1 you should be able to assign, now people will say, well, granted, that's easy for you to say because you're wealthy and can afford lawyers. But I hate anonymous anything.
I just think it

Speaker 1 just, it creates, I don't like this person for the following reasons. I mean, we had this shit at schools.

Speaker 1 We had, we had parents of kids who had been broken up with by other kids calling anonymous hotlines for child abuse. I mean, this shit gets so ugly so fast.

Speaker 1 And this is, this is not a way to build a culture around a group of people.

Speaker 3 So if you guys are real proud of what you're doing and you're so obnoxious about it, by the way, they're so obnoxious about it, then just do it and let people see it and then decide if they think you're an asshole.

Speaker 3 They just don't, they want to hide behind everything. Anyway, well, moving on, the SEC's new leadership has created a crypto task force.

Speaker 3 The force will develop a regulatory framework for crypto assets and address issues surrounding registration of coins. Bitcoin rallied in response to the news.
It is up almost 10% in the last month.

Speaker 3 Nothing wrong with a crypto task force. It just depends on who's on it, right?

Speaker 3 There should be critics and people who want more regulation. There should be boosters, I suppose.
There have to be legitimate people on it.

Speaker 3 Anyone that thinks meme coins that Donald Trump pushed are the best thing ever should not be on it.

Speaker 3 I don't know. What do you think? Nothing wrong with a task force.
They're usually useless, but you know.

Speaker 1 This thing is rendered

Speaker 1 castrated before it forms.

Speaker 1 The person whose idea this is, who's assembling it and has total influence over it and can fire any of them on a dime, has introduced two coins under the cover of darkness, letting a few people that he knows get a 7,000% gain, and then seeing ordinary investors absolutely take a bath.

Speaker 1 The Melania coin is off 67% in the last 72 hours. I mean, what do you want in an asset class? You want credibility.
You want people to trust it. You want the rule of fair play.

Speaker 1 You want it to be a store of value or have utility. This is literally, just as my generation has pulled prosperity forward in the form of deficits,

Speaker 1 I want your future prosperity, Gen Z and millennials, pulled forward to my current prosperity.

Speaker 1 Donald Trump, President Trump, took the increasing credibility of this asset class, and it has been increasing over the last year, and future increases in credibility, and pulled it forward for essentially what was a grift and a scam.

Speaker 1 You know who is outraged about this? The crypto community. They were? They're like, Jesus Christ.

Speaker 3 The legitimate crypto community.

Speaker 1 The legitimacy.

Speaker 1 But what is going to happen with this thing?

Speaker 1 You are going to see whenever they try, whenever this quote unquote task force attempts to pass anything resembling laws and regulation that would have given crypto more of a shot,

Speaker 1 I can't wait to see the Democratic representatives and senators and some Republican senators putting up the data on the Trump and Melania coin and saying, let me get this. This is what we want.
Right.

Speaker 1 So the idea. I mean, it's literally like Jeffrey Dahmer puts, you know, puts the task force together on lunchtime meals.
It's just what

Speaker 1 this, this task force has lost all credibility because the guy assembling it is the greatest offender.

Speaker 3 I like that you got high dudgeon about the crypt, that, the meme coin, the shit coin. I love that this, I love you.

Speaker 3 You're offended because you don't not believe in it, but that it's like not fair play, right?

Speaker 3 It isn't something that's not done in a way that improves the use of crypto or keeps it, makes it legitimate. Instead, makes it sort of like Alex Jones selling vitamins, right?

Speaker 3 Or whatever, selenium tablets or whatever. That's the kind of stuff it feels like.

Speaker 1 Physical violence is the most heinous crime. But when you take, when you steal from people when you're already rich, money is the transfer of time and work.

Speaker 1 When you take people's trust or their desire to help you or whatever it is, and they lose 70% of their money in what is an obvious grift, you're taking time from their kids.

Speaker 1 You're taking their retirement. And the whole point of having an operating system in capitalism is that we do need some protections.

Speaker 1 We do need some guardrails because some people will try and exploit it.

Speaker 1 And when the person in charge, the person who's supposed to be the ultimate exemplar of trying to prevent a tragedy at the commons, engages in the theft of other people's time and money, the whole fucking thing collapses.

Speaker 1 How do my kids get rich when no one trusts this economy?

Speaker 3 Aaron Trevor Brandon, and then everyone wants to be in on the grift, right? Then the grift is the thing and not the grift.

Speaker 1 And everyone's like, I'm grifting. I'm grifting.
So why not? He's grifting.

Speaker 3 He's grifting. Absolutely.
I have a connection to make. I almost stole your cashmere sweater.
I didn't. It was so soft.

Speaker 1 Well, if you'd taken it, if you'd taken it and started wearing it, it would mean we're going steady. The next thing is I borrow your car.

Speaker 3 I know, it's true. It was so cold, and I did wear it.
And then I gave it.

Speaker 1 It was so soft. I have some very nice sweaters.
I have the GDP of a Latin American Nation in Lauro Piano and Bruno Cuncinelli sweaters. You do.

Speaker 3 You do. This happened to be, that's what it was.
That was when Laura Piano was very soft. I thought about it and then I thought, I can't take it.
Anyway, it was warm. All right, let's move on.

Speaker 3 You're right, completely. The Netflix is upping its prices after reporting its biggest ever subscriber jump.

Speaker 3 The streamer gained 19 million new subscribers in Q4, bringing the global total to 302 million. Revenue increased 16%, topping $10 billion for the first time.

Speaker 3 Netflix attributed the growth to Mike Tyson and Jake Paul boxing match in November. Interesting, these live events.
They're doing these live-ish events, which drew in 108 million viewers.

Speaker 3 Probably a whole new class of people using Netflix, I would guess. Shares are up 12% in five days at the time of the taping.

Speaker 3 Wow, they have, this group, this group of executives really does not make very many mistakes these days, I have to say.

Speaker 3 And they're doing all kinds of live events, you know, this live event thing, which a lot, I'm curious if they ever jump into news, right?

Speaker 3 If they jump into news, probably not, but live TV certainly around sports and whatever that fight was, which was a shitty fight, but still it drew in a lot of people.

Speaker 3 Thoughts on

Speaker 3 their continued march toward dominance everywhere?

Speaker 1 Well, you asked, will they jump into news? The answer is they're going to jump into everything.

Speaker 1 I mean, at one point, it was unthinkable they were going to have their own

Speaker 1 house before House of Cards, it wasn't obvious they were going to have their own production. And then no one ever thought they'd have live events.

Speaker 3 Which is how HBO started, FYI. HBO used to be movies.
It was movies.

Speaker 1 Yeah. That's right.
And then they had HBO boxing. Boxing.
They're going into live. They'll be in news.
Amazon broke the seal with their election night coverage. I don't know what the results are here.

Speaker 1 They are also, they always thought, well, it's bifurcated into the large, actually the bigger part of the market, think of it, is Android that is ad supported.

Speaker 1 That broadcast television was supposed to own that for people who don't want to pay or are willing to endure the ads. Guess what? 55% of their new subscribers were in their ad tier model.

Speaker 1 And if you look at, they have basically doubled their price over the last 10 years when inflation is up 33%. Netflix has so much pricing power in the face of

Speaker 1 that's called pricing power. I know.
What are you saying?

Speaker 3 I find, I get a lot of value out of my Netflix things. I watch a lot of Amazon.

Speaker 1 So do 300 million other subscribers

Speaker 1 because these things are very easy to subscribe. So what do you have? They not only have power, but they've just raised prices.
They are getting so much more money and have so many more people.

Speaker 1 No one else is going to be able to compete unless they go very niche.

Speaker 3 Well, why do you think like the Amazon, Amazon, I sometimes go to, I have to say, I go to Peacock more. I'm finding more stuff I like there.

Speaker 3 Why does Amazon seem so flaccid in terms of? They have some good shows, but Netflix always has something I want to watch. Say the three places would be Disney for my kids and everything.

Speaker 3 Although Disney has some other stuff I really like with Hulu.

Speaker 3 Peacock and Max are the other ones. Max, I think it's getting better and better.
It is 100%. It has a lot of shows I want to watch.
But Netflix just is always interesting to me. And I would not.

Speaker 3 If I had to get rid of any of them, they would be the last one I'd get rid of. Well, maybe Disney would be the last one because of my kids.
But why do the others seem so

Speaker 3 much of them? Why are they so far behind the other streamers?

Speaker 1 Well, Netflix, quite frankly, Netflix is spending $18 billion

Speaker 1 billion dollars on content. Even Apple with a $3 trillion market cap has said we can't spend more than $4 or $5 billion.
So

Speaker 1 you have just the biggest investor, the biggest company that offers the most for the lowest price.

Speaker 1 If you looked at the amount of shows they have relative to the price they're charging, it's still the best value. And then the only way you compete is through focus.

Speaker 1 and so you have hbo which has still managed to maintain this incredible culture that is artisanal and if there's someone talking at the water cooler about a show it's usually on hbo and the people the the their ability to attract top talent when i was pitching our show we got we ended up with netflix but we had

Speaker 1 there were a lot of people in the group that wanted to go with HBO because HBO has a reputation. You can see that HBO attracts the cream of the crop in terms of talent.

Speaker 1 And they are able to, they've created a culture where they punch above their weight class. And then Disney has the best positioning.
Disney is family.

Speaker 1 And if you have kids, you got to take your kids to Disneyland and you got to have Disney Plus. Everybody else has Spider-Man on there.
Everybody else is a guy at 3 a.m.

Speaker 1 who's fucked up, who's just like, got to find a dance partner. It's just like, everybody else has either got to merge, cut costs, or sell to some billionaire son.

Speaker 3 That's it. Some of them are interesting.
Like Tubi is, I really like Tubi. I think they're fun.
They're kind of, she's, I just interviewed the CEOs, a young woman,

Speaker 3 CEO, but she used to work for Barry Diller, I think. But they have interesting stuff.
Like

Speaker 3 I go around and kind of look at it just to see what I like. And they have, they put together some, because of the way you pick it, like

Speaker 3 stories about.

Speaker 3 you know, sad sack lawyers or whatever. They do a lot of that.
And that's interesting to me. But you really have to be creative in getting people the things they want to watch, right?

Speaker 3 If that makes sense.

Speaker 3 And I have to to say netflix is a little bit down like you're right max not max um hbo feels fancy restaurant like not fancy but really good restaurant netflix feels a little bit like cheesecake factory sometimes and again i like the cheesecake like i know it sounds crazy but it doesn't always feel like there's a new camera and diaz movie i love camera and diaz and this is her first movie in like a decade not a very good movie but i watched it anyway and it it was like not great but i don't care right or a jared butler movie or you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 Like, I'm like perfectly happy in that, in those genres, that they don't have to be spectacular in some way.

Speaker 1 Look, Netflix is Toyota. It'll be the biggest in the world.
It produces the most for the lowest price. It's really well managed.
HBO is more like an Audi or maybe even a Mercedes.

Speaker 1 It's just, it's a, it's a higher end,

Speaker 1 a higher end.

Speaker 1 HBO, Netflix's strength is how much they produce. HBO's strength is how much they don't produce.
They've just got a higher bar and there's more trial.

Speaker 1 I think when HBO comes out with a big series, you're very inclined to trial it because there's a chance it's going to be the thing.

Speaker 1 Whereas Netflix says, okay, 99% of our stuff is shit, but 1% of a shit ton is enough for you. And so, you know,

Speaker 1 everything else is everything else is like features. It's like heated seats.
So I can't live without GPS. But Netflix is now the car.

Speaker 3 Apple does some really interesting things, I have to say. They have some very interesting, like Severance and Ted Lasso, and there's a bunch of shows and horses, whatever.

Speaker 3 Slow horse, they have some shows that are quite good. Slow horses.
They're sort of going for HBO, it seems like, but they're not quite there.

Speaker 1 Well, they hired Plepler. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 They hired Plebar.

Speaker 1 Anyway, it's a great time to love edibles and have a really nice couch. That is true.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 I thought that was a dick joke, but I won't go there. Did you ever couch fucking?

Speaker 3 Anyway, that was wild.

Speaker 1 I never understood that one. That oat.
Oh, yeah. That's the guy formerly known as the VP.

Speaker 1 Yeah, right, right. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Anyway, I love streaming.

Speaker 3 That story got lost in some more, but that was a good story. Okay, Scott, let's go in a quick break.
We come back. Elon Musk attempts to undermine Trump's new AI deal.
And badly, I have to say.

Speaker 3 And of course, his nemesis is back, Sam Altman.

Speaker 1 Support for the show comes from Odo. Running a business is hard enough, and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other.

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That's Odoo.com.

Speaker 2 Support for this show comes from Upwork. So you started a business, but you didn't expect to become the head of everything.
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Speaker 3 Scott, we're back with our first big story.

Speaker 3 President Trump is embracing artificial intelligence in a big way, announcing Stargate, a joint venture between OpenAI, SoftBank, and Oracle that aims to build up AI infrastructure in the U.S.

Speaker 3 Trump unveiled it. There's no government money here.
Just, I got so many people like, why is the government giving these people money? They're not. This is an initiative.

Speaker 3 It's just a press release from the White House is what it is. That's why he was there.
Had Sam Altman was there. Larry Ellison was there.
Masio Shisan was there.

Speaker 3 All of them have up and down startup experience, if you want to say that. They're sort of big-time investors.
And Sam Altman took the opportunity to briefly thank Trump. Let's listen.

Speaker 4 I'm thrilled we get to do this in the United States of America. I think this will be the most important project of this era.

Speaker 4 And as Masa said, for AGI to get built here, to create hundreds of thousands of jobs, to create a new industry centered here. We wouldn't be able to do this without you, Mr.
President.

Speaker 4 And I'm thrilled that we get to.

Speaker 3 So this has been in the works. Just so you know, it's been in the works for a long time.

Speaker 3 This is not a new thing. And I believe they offered it to the Biden people to do it sooner.

Speaker 3 And they didn't bite, I suppose. Trump knows how to bite.
Trump's done almost nothing here to do that, except for pose with him in the the White House, which is not a bad thing.

Speaker 3 It's already broke ground. I know a lot about this.
I've talked to all the different players in it.

Speaker 3 And just for history's sake, Masa had promised this in the last administration and didn't really make a lot of the investments that he said he was going to make the last Trump administration.

Speaker 3 That said, he's also a very good entrepreneur.

Speaker 1 on many things and a very bad one on others.

Speaker 3 There also was Foxconn in the last era. It never got built, which Trump had promised and touted and everything else.

Speaker 3 That said, this is a much more substantive group of people, and they're already building the thing.

Speaker 3 After the announcement, though, Elon Musk, who was not in the room and purposely not in the room, in case everybody's interested, I have talked to a lot of people. They made sure he wasn't there.

Speaker 3 He was stirring the pot, posting on X that these companies don't have the capital to invest. Sam Altman responded wrong.

Speaker 3 He went on to say, I realize what is great for the country isn't always what's optimal for your companies, but in your new role, I hope you mostly put America first.

Speaker 3 The word mostly is doing a lot of work. It's such a troll.
It was such a perfect troll. I think part of,

Speaker 3 let me say, because I've done a little reporting into it, is

Speaker 3 they don't have the money yet, but they have a lot of money also, and they'll get the money.

Speaker 3 And I've talked to all the parties, Microsoft's a partner, there's other partners, and essentially it's to build a data center and build them all over the country.

Speaker 3 They still also need energy centers, they need all kinds of chips, building chips here. There's going to be a lot of this kind of stuff.
A lot of money. Not much result yet.

Speaker 3 So start on that, because I want to also get into this tech telenovela, as I'm calling it, between Musk and Altman, because they continued through the night to troll back and forth.

Speaker 3 And we'll talk about that in a minute. But talk about the announcement itself, Scott.

Speaker 1 It's genius branding on the part of the administration, the president, because he basically took other people's assets and money and pretended it was his idea.

Speaker 1 I mean, most of this was underway during the Biden administration, but what he's done is he's branded it and taken credit for it. And most Americans will go,

Speaker 1 you know, a half a trillion dollars, U.S. government weighing in like the space program.
We're going to be number one in AI. That's leadership day five.

Speaker 1 When all he really did was just take an existing, existing efforts and capital and brand it. So this was brilliant from the president, quite frankly.

Speaker 1 The one I don't get, I can't figure out that Masiyoshi-san is still hanging around the hoop.

Speaker 1 I don't think he's a great entrepreneur. I think he's one of the luckiest investors in history.

Speaker 1 I'm convinced, and this is my theory, that Masioshi-san is an officer in the Central Intelligence Agency that's been tasked with transferring oil capital back from the Gulf to American entrepreneurs.

Speaker 1 Wow. Oh, oh, okay.
There's been few people that have lost more of other people's money, more of other people's money, than Masioshi-san. SoftBank, I mean, come on, Kara.

Speaker 3 Yes, I agree. I think he's had some wins.

Speaker 1 Well, okay.

Speaker 1 Broken clock.

Speaker 1 Remember at your conference? I used to speak a lot at your code conferences.

Speaker 1 Whenever there was a really attractive entrepreneur on stage saying, I have this internet-powered mattress and we just raised money at a valuation of $7 billion.

Speaker 1 You knew it was a soft bank-backed company. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, they were literally, they weren't drunken sailors. They were drunk sailors on meth with dad's credit card

Speaker 1 and doing rails. And like, they just found out they had terminal ass cancer and they were at a weekend in Vegas.
I mean,

Speaker 3 yes, I would, let's put the context here.

Speaker 3 Scott was incredibly critical and correctly throw on WeWork, on the WeWork example, of which Son lost a lot of money and then continued to throw good money after bad.

Speaker 3 You're right. He's had more disasters than he has pluses.
There's all kinds of controversies around his companies. He gets a lot of money from the Gulf states, as you know.

Speaker 3 He was one of the first to go there. He would drive tech technologists and venture capitalists crazy in Silicon Valley because he'd spend like a crazy person and then they'd have to.

Speaker 3 And so it got really ugly in terms of messing up the venture capital ecosystem in a way that was weird. And there were all these bad companies, like one after the next.
Go ahead, Scott.

Speaker 1 Yeah, look, in terms of the group, the other interesting thing is the group. I have no idea what Masio Shasana is doing in this group.
I think it diminishes the credibility of the whole thing. The

Speaker 1 biggest winner is the president here. And the other big winner, quite frankly, is Oracle.
Oracle is all of a sudden, I went to this wonderful, our friends.

Speaker 1 Patrick and Tatum had this wonderful Christmas dinner, and there's a kids' table and an adults' table.

Speaker 1 And I said to my 14-year-old wonnie, who joined the adults' table, and we played these games, and he was just so excited to be there.

Speaker 1 I feel like Oracle with this announcement is officially at the grown-ups table around AI. Agreed.

Speaker 3 They've been behind in this area a lot, quite a bit. And they, they, and Sam needs capacity.
That's what he needs because he's not getting enough from Microsoft. He's not, he needs computing capacity.

Speaker 3 That's really

Speaker 3 the situation. Because I'll tell you.
Musk has done a great job scaling in terms of doing, shoving all those chips in the place, you know, polluting an area where he was opening one of the things.

Speaker 3 He's done a great job of scaling. And Altman needs to keep keep up here and needs to look like he's on his front foot.

Speaker 3 The two of them, what a relationship. They were very close and now are sort of like arch enemies.
They've continued this back and forth, trolling through the night.

Speaker 3 Elon's been resharing some of Sam's old anti-Trump tweets. They existed.
Sam posted he's not going to agree with Trump on everything, but he thinks he'll be incredible for the country in many ways.

Speaker 3 Very much like Bill Gates saying, I was impressed with him, more impressed with him than I thought.

Speaker 3 Obviously, every one of these people is going to do, you know, a kiss ass to Trump because it works so well.

Speaker 3 And, but Elon's trying to paint him as anti-Trump. Elon should be careful.
Elon, I have some texts from Elon that are not so positive towards Donald Trump.

Speaker 3 You know, a lot of them were not pro-Trump, a lot of them. And then they were.
And in this case, I think Sam is doing it for, I would imagine, I think a lot of people were pissed at him for doing it.

Speaker 3 And I can see why. But

Speaker 3 he's definitely, all these people, whether it's Bill Gates now in an interview with the head of the Wall Street Journal or Sam are going to say Trump's going to be incredible.

Speaker 3 It's the only way to get through to this guy.

Speaker 3 But it's interesting that Elon was sort of shoved out a little bit here, which I think is vintage Trump.

Speaker 1 Again, I think

Speaker 3 a win for Trump to have all these people competing. That's my feeling.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but I initially thought that, that, oh, this was Trump saying I'm on top. But basically, Trump just played the hand he was dealt.

Speaker 1 This group, I think, was already assembled and already on their way, and he just wanted credit for it.

Speaker 1 I do think, though, that this is probably the beginning of the end of their romance because I don't think Trump likes sharing the mic with anyone.

Speaker 1 Musk fired Vivek because he didn't want to share the mic with Vivek. Musk is used to doing whatever the fuck he wants.

Speaker 1 And Trump, when he appoints you to something, and now you're off hogging all of the media echo chamber and you're criticizing his new pet project, I got to think that Trump and his folks are like, all right, everybody said we couldn't control this guy, but we were under the impression he wouldn't shitpost us five days into the administration.

Speaker 1 I got to think that Trump and his circle are like, okay,

Speaker 1 this is not. But what do they do?

Speaker 3 They rely on his money. They want to use him as a cudgel against the primaries.
They gave him a West Wing office, not an East Building office.

Speaker 1 You're saying he's more powerful. There's nothing they can do.

Speaker 3 Except they kept him out of this meeting. I mean, people there,

Speaker 3 one of the many people involved said it was the greatest engineering feat of all time to keep him out, right?

Speaker 3 So I think, and I think Sam felt emboldened to attack him, right, or to make fun of him. And what's really interesting about Musk that you really have to understand is he loves to troll people.

Speaker 3 He loves to troll people. This gives him his greatest pleasure.
He loves, if I do this, what will they do? I've heard out of his mouth so many times. Like, it's usually a stupid prank, right?

Speaker 3 And that he got pushed back on by Sam, who he's also in a lawsuit with, OpenAI, by the way, calls him a liar all the time, et cetera.

Speaker 3 That he got pushed on. When he gets pushed back on, very typical bully, he gets all mad.
He gets all beside himself.

Speaker 3 He trolls, but he can't take a troll in any way with any sense of humor whatsoever. And so I think that's something Trump will not like.

Speaker 3 And Sam is a more appealing character, like if he's assembling billionaires to have around him. You know, you want the Gateses and the Sams and the Tim Cooks.

Speaker 3 Musk is a lot if you have him in proximity and he takes a lot of attention.

Speaker 1 But my theory, and I talked to you about this, and you said you, and you may be right here. You're just closer to this and more knowledgeable than I am.

Speaker 1 I thought that the twofer that Musk was getting, one, he likes to troll, and two, he has to push out of the news cycle this Roman salute slash Heil Hitler gesture. He just needs to change.

Speaker 1 It's like when Don Draper said, if you don't like what people are saying, change the conversation.

Speaker 3 Well, he doesn't want to change the conversation. and Elon seems to be doubling down on the Nazi thing.

Speaker 3 He put up a post on Thursday morning with all sorts of puns playing on the names of Nazi leaders like Rudolf Hess and Joseph Goebbels, and writing, Bet You Did Not See That Coming, that was the least irritating one of all of them.

Speaker 3 They were really quite a heinous group of stupid jokes about Nazis. Of course, CEO Linda Yaccarino, also known as the Quizling Ad Lady from Queens, responded with a laughing emoji.

Speaker 3 There is no low she will not sink to. He's just strange.
She's just, he's just, I don't know what to say. She is.
Anyway, does he get the benefit of the doubt? I don't know, Scott.

Speaker 3 You can have your own opinions about this, but he's absolutely what I just said. He's a complete troll and he just wants attention.
Focus on him.

Speaker 3 I think the Trump administration, believe me, which is sort of the Olympics of trolling, doesn't like this because it takes focus on their own troll, who is a much better troll, by the way.

Speaker 3 and these are not funny jokes this is a 53 year old man i let me just underscore this and he just has to have all the attention on himself and to cause all kinds of controversy on himself and i think the best thing that has been said of all things um you can like or dislike sam altman all you want but i think his uh

Speaker 3 tweet um today i thought was sort of said it all just one more mean tweet and then maybe you'll love yourself i actually don't think he will.

Speaker 3 I think he's a sad, sad man, Elon Musk, and he will never feel loved because he's unlovable. Scott?

Speaker 1 I mean, where I go with this is

Speaker 1 there, there are, you don't make jokes about AIDS. You don't.

Speaker 1 There are certain things that are so painful and so raw and represent so much of the worst of us that you just don't go there. Beyond the decorum, which he seems to enjoy kind of poking,

Speaker 1 and some people like that he does that, What this is for me is,

Speaker 1 you know, look at what money has done to us.

Speaker 1 If you showed up,

Speaker 1 if you wrote this, if you were a public, if you were a late time TV host and you started making these jokes, if you were the president of a school board or a member of Congress and you started making these jokes, you know, you'd be pretty swiftly reprimanded in your career.

Speaker 1 And your,

Speaker 1 I don't know, status, your social capital would erode pretty fast. But when you're worth $400 billion,

Speaker 1 you know, you have your CEO weighing in with a crying emoji because they want money from you. You have your stands weighing in.

Speaker 1 I just think if you, I go to the whole dad thing. If my son was,

Speaker 1 if my son was having trouble with drugs, was

Speaker 1 saying his employees were committing sex crimes when they weren't such that they had to leave their house. living with a gun next to me, not living with any of my 13 kids,

Speaker 1 and then

Speaker 1 mocking or making making fun or light of the Holocaust,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 you'd move in. You'd say, look, son,

Speaker 1 this just isn't, you're not acting like a man.

Speaker 1 You're causing unnecessary harm.

Speaker 1 The definition,

Speaker 1 I like Carlos Cipola,

Speaker 1 you could say this is cruel. What this is is stupid.
And that is there's a great matrix. People who help themselves and help others are intelligent.

Speaker 1 People who help themselves and hurt others are bandits, the above tech CEOs. People who help others but don't help themselves, philanthropists slash artists, if you will.

Speaker 1 People who help, people who hurt others and hurt themselves, that's just stupid. This is a definition of stupid.
This hurts others and it hurts themselves.

Speaker 1 I'm writing a post about corruption and money for numerous no malice. And

Speaker 1 my kind of closing line is, look what money has done to us.

Speaker 1 I was on my kids' school board and I had the pleasurable assignment of calling someone who I knew and saying, you can no longer drop your kid off at drop-off because you cut in line and it's pissed everybody off the cutting in line well yeah but imagine showing up to a parent teacher night and accidentally making a fucking nazi gesture imagine doing try doing that in work at work and see what happens by the way yep that gesture in germany is against the law it is in any case elon not a good week for you i don't know when you're going to break up with donald trump but it doesn't you probably you have enough money you he's good he's the only reason he's still there is there's not quite enough billionaires kissing trump's ass yet.

Speaker 3 And once they do,

Speaker 3 well, they don't. Like, you don't see Sam Altman funding Donald Trump in the next.

Speaker 1 But does Trump need the money any longer?

Speaker 3 No, he doesn't. So that's the thing.
Or unless he wants to be permanent, you know, dictator of the United States. But we'll see.

Speaker 3 I shouldn't say that in such a glip way. It's scary if that would happen.

Speaker 3 Let me just ask the last question. Oracle's shares jumped over 7% on the heels of the Stargate announcement.
And again, Oracle's been behind other people in this area.

Speaker 3 And it's their sweet spot, by the way. SoftBank surged 11%.
NVIDIA was up more than 4%.

Speaker 3 This idea of them raising the money, let me just take away, they don't have the money yet. I think they will get the money.

Speaker 3 And I think Elam was making a point, which is vaguely accurate, but he left out the fact that they'll probably get the money because he raises money for all manner of good things and nonsense, right?

Speaker 3 So he'll get the money. I think they'll get

Speaker 3 some of the money or at least a lot of it. And I think we do need to start doing this stuff on U.S.
soil, and it has a great political benefit. So

Speaker 3 it'll probably be Gulf money, by the way, FYI.

Speaker 1 Oh, it already is.

Speaker 1 There's a Gulf entity in the group.

Speaker 3 Saudi Arabia just said they're going to invest even more in this country.

Speaker 1 And I hope they do. I want their cheap capital, and I want to increase our ties and binds with the Gulf, quite frankly.

Speaker 3 In any case,

Speaker 3 who benefits the most from this idea of Stargate and projects like this? Because the money is not there in terms of profits. There may be overspending.
We've talked about that before.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 I mean, it's easy just to get incredibly excited about AI when you spend any time on it. It just, it does blow your mind.
And the applications are just sort of endless.

Speaker 1 Having said that, the revenues have not kept pace with the valuations. All right.

Speaker 1 These companies are willing to make these staggering commitments and investments because the last time they made these sort of staggering investments was in the cloud, and the cloud has paid off wildly.

Speaker 1 So they have the confidence to make these types of investments. Who benefits? If America maintains its lead, I was on Diary of a CEO with Stephen Bartlett.
And,

Speaker 1 you know, people always ask me, or the question I get the most living in London is, how would you summarize the difference between the U.S. and the U.K.?

Speaker 1 And the way I would summarize it is my mom and dad in the late 50s at the age of 19 and 23 got on steamships from Glasgow and London and came to the U.S. with like $300.

Speaker 1 And I say, everyone here, referencing people who are in London, you're the ones that decided to stay.

Speaker 1 And what I mean by that is that there's $5 million in venture capital for every business started in the U.S. versus $1 million in the U.S.
There's five times the number of entrepreneurs.

Speaker 1 It is in our DNA to take crazy risks like this. And occasionally it ends up being crazy genius.
And about 90, name an important AI company that's not in the U.S.

Speaker 1 Okay, list over. And it's because we are willing to make these types of, take these staggering risks.
I agree.

Speaker 3 It's always been like that. It's always, and it's the same thing with people who stopped in Pennsylvania and didn't go to California.
I always think about that, like who stopped and who kept going.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 we don't think small. I was on one of my other panelists on Stephen Barlett, it was this really impressive, intelligent guy named Constantine,

Speaker 1 who's kind of, I would call him center right, if not right. But he made a lot of really interesting points.
And he said, in the U.K., if you go into a restaurant and you like it, you eat there.

Speaker 1 In the U.S., if you go into a restaurant and you like it and you have money, you give them your card and you want to open a second, a third, and a fifth, and you want to try and scale it to 200.

Speaker 1 And so we benefit from this economic growth. And

Speaker 1 I think it's amazing and wonderful how big we think, half a trillion dollars.

Speaker 3 There'll be a lot of failures. This is, I said that to someone.
I said, imagine not investing in the internet when they were overinvesting.

Speaker 3 Like, you know, what's interesting is when you talk, when you talk about that years ago in the UK, I went on this thing.

Speaker 3 It was called Silicon Valley in the UK. And we went to Cambridge and Oxford and we did debates

Speaker 3 at the Oxford, you know, the famous debate series that they have there. And it was me and Reed Hoffman on one side saying the posit was the U.S.
or Britain will create the first $1 billion company.

Speaker 3 It was billion at the time. And

Speaker 3 that was Reid's in my side was the U.S. would win.
And then they had some Britain. It must have been trillion.

Speaker 1 You mean trillion?

Speaker 3 No, it was billion at the time. Swear to God, it was billion.

Speaker 1 How long ago was that?

Speaker 3 It was almost 15, 20 years ago.

Speaker 1 It was billion-dollar companies.

Speaker 1 I'm not going to sweat Harris here, but go ahead.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it was billion. I have the stuff from it.
And so

Speaker 3 who's going to create the most billion-dollar companies, I guess it was, in the internet? And

Speaker 3 I'll read and I did as we got up because we're shitty debaters and we're like, we're like, we just listed Google.

Speaker 3 It was early on before they were really big. And

Speaker 3 we just, I said, we listed like 20 U.S. companies and we go, England.
And that was our whole debate. We still lost.
We still got voted against because the British were better talkers than us.

Speaker 3 But I remember thinking, they're not going to make these here. It was, it was with the guy, Mike Lynch's company was the only one.
He died. Remember, he died in that weird voting accident.

Speaker 3 His company was the only one that was pretty big.

Speaker 1 Since 2020, our economy has grown 10%.

Speaker 1 It's barely half of that in Europe and in Germany, in the UK, it's like a third of that.

Speaker 1 And there is something about

Speaker 1 the culture here, and I can't quite figure it out. They have all of the,

Speaker 1 well, in America, I'm a beneficiary of this. I raised crazy amounts of money on really stupid fucking ideas and occasionally one like panned out.

Speaker 1 And not only that, the amazing thing about America is even when my crazy ideas didn't work, as long as you're a good person, as long as you treat people well, you can go raise more money.

Speaker 1 In Europe, you have one startup failure and you're that guy that was a high flyer but crashed and burned.

Speaker 1 They're more interested in kind of cutting the daisies or trimming the daisies, whatever the term is. And the U.S.
really embraces risk takers.

Speaker 3 We're crazy, cruel, and greedy.

Speaker 1 We're the ones who left, Kara. We're the ones who said, I'm out of here.
I want religious freedom. Yeah.
You know, I want to practice breath work.

Speaker 1 I want to wear a boostier.

Speaker 3 London is an exemplification of our country. I wore a boostier and I'm proud of it.
All right, let's go on a quick break. I love how we come back to Boustier all the time.
Boustier.

Speaker 3 When we come back, we'll talk about TikTok's potential suitors and take a listener mail question on those drones in New Jersey.

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Speaker 3 Scott, we're back with our second big story. Byte Dance is exploring a deal to keep TikTok running in the U.S.

Speaker 3 without a sale, according to one of its directors, General Atlantic CEO Bill Ford, who sits on Byte Dance's board, told Bloomberg that one of the options is to change in control locally that can comply with U.S.

Speaker 3 legislation. They're always looking for tricks.
Meanwhile, President Trump told reporters he'd be open to Elon Musk buying TikTok or Oracle chairman Larry Ellison. YouTube star Mr.

Speaker 3 Beast, I see I was right about that. Thank you.
YouTube star Mr. Beast is also rumored to be in the mix to buy the app, although his rep says he hasn't officially joined any bids.

Speaker 3 What do you think about Oracle? Well, Oracle's already in there. Oracle is one of TikTok's leading server providers and resumed service after last week's shutdown at risk to the company.

Speaker 3 TikTok is still not on the Apple or Google App stores, and they are not going to be on the Apple and Google stores. Trump hasn't imposed his promised tariffs on foreign countries just yet.

Speaker 3 He's threatening to do so by February 1st.

Speaker 3 Maybe he's going to hold off to get leverage on the TikTok deal. Very overthoughts.
I knew he would say Elon Musk, of course,

Speaker 3 but Ellison seems an obvious partner in that.

Speaker 3 And as I said, they're going to do some deal that hides the fact that China still runs the place.

Speaker 3 Anyway, your thoughts?

Speaker 1 Look, the criteria for anyone who potentially does a deal here, first and foremost, is capital. And that just sweeps off the deck Mr.
Beast and what's his name? Mr. Wonderful.

Speaker 1 They're just, hey, look at me. I'm relevant.
I have a big idea. There's just no chance in hell.
You need compute. Oracle brings that.
But more than anything, you need China. You need the CCP.

Speaker 1 And that probably, I hate to say it, puts Musk and some other people in a bit of a poll position because the primary criteria for if and who this gets sold to is who the CCP believes they can control.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's true.

Speaker 3 Unless Trump says no CCP, but he's not.

Speaker 1 Well, it'll be a negotiation.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 there's just no way. They own the asset.
You don't have to sell your house if you don't want to. And 20% of the revenues come out of the U.S.

Speaker 1 There's a lot of pressure, but they will spin this as if it was some sort of great victory. But the only thing I know here is the Chinese are going to have a lot of influence.

Speaker 1 And everybody says about Musk, well, he's a child. You got to give him some break.
He has Asperger's. He just says this thing.
He doesn't mean, never says anything mean about China.

Speaker 1 He's got a lot of maturity and discipline around China. He does.
And I think China, giving us,

Speaker 1 you've highlighted this to me.

Speaker 3 He's a fuck, FOC. I was the first person saying he was going to get it.

Speaker 1 Friend of China. But you've pointed this out to me.
They have real leverage over him because a lot of his factories and a lot of his sales are in China. Or it'll be...

Speaker 1 someone they see is very friendly to their interests. But look, the bottom line is everything has changed because our negotiating leverage has been dramatically reduced.

Speaker 1 When you say, unless you do the following things, I'm leaving. And the next day your spouse does those things and you don't leave, your threats become somewhat hollow.

Speaker 1 And so they know they have the upper hand here. The CCP doesn't need TikTok.

Speaker 1 Doesn't need the capital, especially when they can say, look, guys, you're getting 80% of your capital overseas.

Speaker 1 We're not going to put up with this shit. If they can come up with some sort of accommodation that gives Trump a win.
I like it.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that looks like it's going to be very, I call it the Elon Feint.

Speaker 1 It's going to be a pretzel. This deal is going to be a pretzel if it happens.

Speaker 3 Yeah. So one of the things that will be interesting is how senators like Tom Cotton, who've been very adamant that China, who's a China hawk, reacts to whatever the deal happens to be.

Speaker 3 And if they have, get him in on it and say, Elon's a great owner, it's over.

Speaker 3 The second thing, I was just thinking of one the other day that could be, see, if you were doing this in a really fair way, the person that you, the company you might give it to is is Snapchat, who has moved, who is very strong in video, has been an innovator.

Speaker 3 It creates a much

Speaker 3 more competitive playing field in the area.

Speaker 3 Here's a company that knows how to do this stuff and is, again, Meta steals ideas from them all the time. I don't know.
I just was thinking of them the other day.

Speaker 3 Give this company an opportunity to really compete.

Speaker 3 They'd be creative. Creators love them.
They're based in LA, et cetera, et cetera. That was my weird thought of the day.

Speaker 1 It is a weird thought.

Speaker 1 That's like giving a bazooka to an eight-year-old.

Speaker 3 In a way, they have been the most innovative in these spaces.

Speaker 1 No, no, no. What I mean by, what I mean, that was the wrong analogy.
Evan is a super smart guy, super creative.

Speaker 1 You know, my guess is he would do a pretty good job managing it. They don't have the capital or the compute.

Speaker 3 No, with capital, with partners. I'm just thinking that's who would make it something really interesting.
That's all I'm saying.

Speaker 3 And then you'd sort of have a competitor to Instagram. You'd have a real competitor that's U.S.
owned.

Speaker 3 Then you have a real competition and you get better products. I just was like that.

Speaker 1 My idea, and I'm name-dropping, I met with Ted Surround us, and I'm like, if you want to be a trillion-dollar company,

Speaker 1 you should start a competitor to TikTok. And you should take all of your 99%.

Speaker 1 I take all of your 99% that doesn't get viewed, chop it into little digestible bits and start a Netflix, start a TikTok competitor called

Speaker 1 NetVibes or something like that. I think actually the best partner here would be a giant compute company and Netflix.

Speaker 3 Oh, that's a great one. Another one.
Mark Cuban's sort of trying to put something together using Blue Sky protocols. I love competition.
And so that's all I'm thinking of it.

Speaker 3 Like giving it to Elon is just such a weird gimme and thank you. And he would not innovate on it and he will ruin it.
And so I want it to be a really good competitor to Instagram.

Speaker 3 I want there to be a U.S.-owned. competitor to Instagram.
I love the Snapchat idea. I really like the Netflix idea.
That's a great idea. I like what Mark Cuban's doing.
It should not go to Elon.

Speaker 3 He will wreck it. And it's a gimme and a payback for it's corruption again and it's the worst thing.
And then the Chinese will have much more control over it.

Speaker 3 I don't think there's any deal done without Oracle involved.

Speaker 1 Netflix has a $420 billion market cap. Say they paid $80.
That's like a 15%. What is that? 15, 20% dilution.
It's kind of worth it. Yeah.
Without the algorithm. And they have all the content.

Speaker 3 They should buy Snapchat. That's who should buy Snapchat.

Speaker 1 Think about that. Netflix should buy Snap?

Speaker 3 Yeah, and then get all and do that there too. And they also get TikTok.

Speaker 1 Anyway, I don't think Netflix wants to be in the business of messaging kids.

Speaker 1 I know.

Speaker 3 But they do a lot. They're doing a ton of videos.
They're doing that.

Speaker 1 Ted had the right response. He's like, Scott, we're killing it.
And we use TikTok to market our products. Yeah, what do we need to do? Why do I need to get distracted?

Speaker 1 And, you know, I mean, that's always. As evidenced by the fact that they just increased their subscriber base

Speaker 1 17% year-on-year.

Speaker 3 Those are the tips, Scott.

Speaker 3 It's like giving a tip to Michael Jordan. Hey, it reminds me.
If you spin your ball just a little bit more with your thumb, you might have a better shot or something.

Speaker 1 Now, I remember saying to,

Speaker 1 in my past life, I was a consultant and I used to consult to the CEOs of big consumer brands. And I remember meeting with Johan Rupert and they prepared me.
It was this big deal.

Speaker 1 And he's the head of Richemont. He's kind of this larger-than-life character with this deep, rumbly voice.

Speaker 1 And all of his brands, from Cartier to Panarai, they have kind of the best watch brands in the world. I said, you have to get on the internet.
You have to establish this as a distribution channel.

Speaker 1 This is like 10 years ago. And he's like, let's just listen to me.
He's like, he's like, young man, I can't find enough parts in Switzerland for my watches. I don't have to do anything.
Guys,

Speaker 1 he's like, my watches are sold out. Yeah.
I don't, you know, and you're telling me I have to be on the internet. He's like, no, I don't have to do anything.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 That was that was pre-Apple Watch, by the way.

Speaker 3 That's true. No, FYI.
They're sure to buy this guy's watches. But let me just say, let's go around and give tips to really successful people.

Speaker 1 Well, isn't that what this show is? Isn't that what Pivot is?

Speaker 1 Unsolicited advice.

Speaker 3 Let's get people who are really killing it and say,

Speaker 1 I start almost every sentence with my friends by saying, look, I'm really good at running other people's lives. So let me tell you what you should do.

Speaker 3 Okay, let's pivot to a listener question so we can advise them.

Speaker 3 This question comes from Kelly. Let's listen.

Speaker 8 Hi, Kara and Scott. So my name is Kelly Applegate-Nichols, and I live in Champaign, Illinois.
I don't know if you need to know that or not, but I'm calling to say that of all the things

Speaker 8 that Trump said,

Speaker 8 I am very disappointed that he did not tell us what the mystery drones in New Jersey are because he said that he was going to do that on day one. So I want to know.

Speaker 8 What do you two think about the mystery drones? Thank you. I love you guys.
Bye.

Speaker 3 Oh, that's funny. I just interviewed Maorkas, Secretary Mayorkas, Mayorkas, who is Biden's director.
We talked a lot about the mystery drones. Apparently, they were private drones people were flying.

Speaker 3 That's what he seemed to indicate. I agree.
Why didn't they tell him? Trump has said he's going to shoot them down if they come back, I guess. That's the shoot for us to ask questions later.

Speaker 3 Of course, people on the ground could be killed, which is Majorca said that's why they didn't shoot them down. I don't know.
What do you think? Scott, any quick drone thoughts? What do you think?

Speaker 3 And by the way, we love Champaign, Illinois.

Speaker 3 It's just like the name.

Speaker 1 Urbana, the Illini, or the Illini. She sounds like she's from Illinois, by the way.

Speaker 1 Look, this reminds me of a couple of personal experiences because I don't talk enough about me on this show, but I was in Mammoth Mountain when I was like 16 on a high school skiing trip.

Speaker 1 And this, what was at the time,

Speaker 1 stealth bomber came rolling over the mountain. Oh, those are scary.
Well,

Speaker 1 you'd never seen a picture of one before.

Speaker 3 A friend of mine went to work. The one went down the mall once when I was living here, Gush's administration.
It was terrifying.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but in 1980, whatever it was, 85, or I don't know what, with these things, a friend of mine went to work for Lockheed Martin Mariotto, and he was like, I remember him telling me, I go into this weird place through an elevator, in a hangar, and I'm like, wow, you must see, you know,

Speaker 1 I've seen a bunch of cool stuff in aviation. And he's like, no one has ever seen any of this shit.
Anyways, I remember seeing it and thinking, wow, our government does a lot of weird things.

Speaker 1 I wouldn't be surprised if there's some sort of government surveillance drones. The honest answer is, I don't know.

Speaker 1 But what was one one of the most enjoyable flights I've ever taken, I used to commute from Tilbury Beach to New York and I was flying up and I saw a bunch of fighter jets rolling the other way.

Speaker 1 And then I looked up and they said,

Speaker 1 the pilot said, up to your right around 11 o'clock is the balloon. And

Speaker 1 I went by the balloon and I looked up.

Speaker 1 And it said, we're calling about extending your automobiles insurance plan. Yeah.

Speaker 1 No, just kidding. And then literally 30 minutes later, they shot it out of the sky.

Speaker 3 They had to wait till it's somewhere safe. You know, Trump's not going to do this.
He makes all kinds of demented promises.

Speaker 3 What I want from him, I think they're probably private commercial things that were just up there fucking with people to see what would happen. I don't, maybe they were a government thing.

Speaker 3 I know they couldn't have shot them down with areas of people. You just can't do that because you'll kill a kid or something like that.

Speaker 3 I want him to tell us who killed JFK, and I'd like to know, Cecilian alien. Those are the two things I want out of this administration.

Speaker 1 Who invented Bitcoin? I'd like to know that.

Speaker 3 Who invented Bitcoin?

Speaker 1 I thought the CIA did that too. The CIA is the only organization in the world that can keep a secret.

Speaker 3 Okay. For the rest of you listeners, it's time for this week's threads poll.
This one's open-ended. Who do you think will be the next member of Trump's inner orbit to get the boot? Oh, that's good.

Speaker 3 Let us know.

Speaker 3 What is your choice?

Speaker 1 I don't know. I don't know who's going to go first.
I don't really thought about it. Have you thought about it?

Speaker 3 I don't know. Probably Eric.
Anyway,

Speaker 3 visit us at Pivot Podcast Official on Threads to Answer.

Speaker 1 Oh, Cash Patel.

Speaker 1 I think it's going to be over before it starts. I do think there is.
I think Cash Patel. There is.
There is a line. I think.

Speaker 1 They like him.

Speaker 3 They like him. He was loyal to Trump when he was on the outs.

Speaker 1 And again, I said that about Pete Heckseth. But in honor of Pete Heckseth, I last night tried to do five sets of 47 push-ups, and tonight I couldn't do it.
I got through three.

Speaker 1 Tonight, I'm going to start with a gin and tonic and see if it helps. Okay.
And I'm going to do five sets of 47.

Speaker 3 All right. Good luck.
If you've got a question of your own you'd like answered, send it our our way. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT.

Speaker 3 All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

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Speaker 3 Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction.

Speaker 1 I just want to call Balls and Strikes here. I've been indignant, outraged, incredibly upset about these meme coins.
That is 3D-level chess compared to the checkers of the corruption of Speaker Pelosi.

Speaker 1 And the most recent example of Speaker Pelosi's corruption is Tempest AI, which is a healthcare AI company,

Speaker 1 announced on Tuesday, or it became public on Tuesday, that Speaker Pelosi, who is in confidential hearings about where Medicaid is going to spend their money.

Speaker 1 It's not unthinkable that she saw Tempest on a list of where they might be investing in AI diagnostics and care management.

Speaker 1 And it comes out that parties affiliated with Speaker Emir Pelosi bought $50,000 to $100,000 of call options in Tempest AI.

Speaker 1 When that was announced on Tuesday, Tempest AI had its biggest gain in its history. It was up 35%.

Speaker 1 That is bullshit.

Speaker 1 Now, granted, if you're going to abuse your position, do it for billions like Trump, and his is more outrageous and more brazen, but this is the same flavor of the same sorbet, and that sorbet is corruption.

Speaker 1 It is an abuse of power for the Speaker of the House buying call options

Speaker 1 on a company that could be getting hundreds of millions of dollars from our agency. So

Speaker 1 this is a bipartisan issue here, this corruption. Okay, enough of my ranting.
My prediction is the following. Oracle has officially been invited to the grown-ups table.

Speaker 1 They trade at a price to sales ratio of about eight.

Speaker 1 Microsoft's at 13.

Speaker 1 OpenAI is at 40.

Speaker 1 NVIDIA is I think at 28.

Speaker 1 Anthropic, interestingly enough, trades at like more like 60 to 90, depending on how you define revenues.

Speaker 1 oracle's at eight oracle is a great company great revenues great management and they're going to start to get the the peanut butter and chocolate right now of ecleptocracy are one proximity to trump and two and this is an eclectocracy is how close you are to the epicenter of ai and now oracle with its proximity to trump and its credibility in ai being invited into stargate is going to result in multiple expansion i think in the next 90 days oracle is going to outperform its peers.

Speaker 1 All right.

Speaker 3 Oh, that's a good one. That's a great one.
Okay. All right.
That's an interesting choice.

Speaker 3 And I would agree. I think they've been behind.
They have been behind. And now they're trying to make a move and using Altman to do so.

Speaker 1 The speaker is buying call-ops. I got it.

Speaker 3 I got it. I got it.
I got it. Nope, they shouldn't be doing this.
It's at the very least, it's a perception thing.

Speaker 3 Anyway, elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe this week, this week on Prof G Markets, Scott spoke with Rich Greenfield, partner and media and technology analyst at Lightshed Partners. He's very smart.

Speaker 3 Let's listen.

Speaker 11 I think it's highly likely that you're going to end 2025 and TikTok is still going to exist.

Speaker 12 Will there be some subtle shifts in its ownership?

Speaker 11 You know, the word salad that came out of Trump, you know, when he was signing the executive orders about, you know, needing to own or someone in the U.S. owning 50%.

Speaker 11 It's hard to understand what that means, you know, Ed, because TikTok is already 58% owned by international investors, you know, well-known international investors.

Speaker 3 Yep, that's right. It's going to be some deal that is just a feint.
It's going to be all a feint.

Speaker 3 And we are still in danger of China having influence over our world. Good job.
Good job. Rich is really smart.

Speaker 3 Okay, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Tuesday with more Pivot.
Can you read us out?

Speaker 1 Today's show is produced by Larry Naiman, Zway Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Intertod engineered this episode.
Thanks also to Drew Burroughs, Ms. Severio, and Dan Shulan.

Speaker 1 Nishak Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you're subscribed to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.
Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

Speaker 1 You can subscribe to the magazine at nmymag.com/slash pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.
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