Trump Is Too Afraid to Debate Harris Again

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Speaker 5 Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm John Favreau.
I'm Dan Pfeiffer. On today's show, Donald Trump says no more debates as even Republicans are saying that he lost on Tuesday night.

Speaker 5 Meanwhile, the Harris campaign is doing everything they can to keep the momentum going with new ads, big rallies, and more interviews.

Speaker 5 And later, as if they didn't already have enough to whine about, MAGA World melts down over Taylor Swift's endorsement of Kamala Harris.

Speaker 5 But first, More than 67 million people watch Tuesday night's debate, about 15 million more than watched the Biden-Trump debate in June.

Speaker 5 And the more data we get, the more clear it is that Kamala Harris won the debate decisively. In addition to the first post-debate poll from CNN that showed Harris winning 63 to 37%,

Speaker 5 a YouGov poll found her winning 54% to 31%.

Speaker 5 And both Reuters and Morning Consult now show Harris with a five-point lead over Trump, which is her gaining a few points since before the debate.

Speaker 5 So we won't get a full picture of post-debate polling until probably the end of next week or the week after.

Speaker 5 But until then, we also have some great feedback from swing state voters who haven't made up their minds yet.

Speaker 5 Our pal Sarah Longwell at the Bulwark offered a glowing report from her nine-person panel, where the most common word to describe Kamala's performance was presidential.

Speaker 5 That kind of take seems to be shared by a lot of the undecided voters who spoke to reporters at CNN, MSNBC, and elsewhere after the debate. Let's listen.

Speaker 6 So that's Trump, the bully. And I think Kamala Harris came out showing some decorum, some presidential nature about her.

Speaker 7 So I think we're,

Speaker 6 the door's a little bit open.

Speaker 8 But it also sounds like this debate's cemented for you that you will never vote for former President Trump, at least again. Is that right?

Speaker 9 Yeah, I mean, I think that people want to separate policy from character, and I just don't see how you can do that.

Speaker 10 Robert, I know we started off the evening where you said you're not sure who you may support. Did this debate change your mind in any way?

Speaker 5 It kind of did make me sway a little bit toward Kamala Harris.

Speaker 9 What did you think? As to who I would vote for in this election,

Speaker 9 I

Speaker 9 strongly felt Kamala was more optimistic, more respectful.

Speaker 9 I thought she had plans that she

Speaker 9 tried to describe in the minutes worth of time that she had.

Speaker 5 All right, so we're still working on the pronunciation with some folks, but

Speaker 5 that is a super cut I could listen to over and over again.

Speaker 5 Just great stuff. What a fun guy.
From my friends in the focus groups. You know, I just, I love focus group.
I love an undecided voter.

Speaker 5 With all the caveats, first impressions, still early, lots of voters who haven't watched or maybe even seen a clip of the debate.

Speaker 5 What are your thoughts on how this debate is landing with people?

Speaker 12 It's landing great.

Speaker 13 She clearly won.

Speaker 14 She moved the ball forward on a whole host of measures.

Speaker 8 She looked strong.

Speaker 16 She looked presidential.

Speaker 17 She got a chance to introduce herself to the country, huge viewership, which is a huge win, right?

Speaker 21 I think there were some initial numbers that made it seem like only a slight increase over Biden.

Speaker 22 The fact that it's this big, I think, is very good for her.

Speaker 23 And because of Trump's behavior, it became sort of a cultural moment.

Speaker 21 So you're seeing a lot.

Speaker 16 There are a lot of the clips.

Speaker 21 They may not be the clips that, and we'll get into some other polling later, but they may not be the clips that.

Speaker 20 are exactly perfect for Kamala Harris in terms of like the exact focus group message, but it shows her looking good and him looking bad.

Speaker 13 And that is great.

Speaker 8 But the biggest takeaway here is there's a lot more work to do, right?

Speaker 28 In the CNN poll,

Speaker 8 82% of people said that their vote was not changed, which no one should be surprised by that.

Speaker 5 You know,

Speaker 20 basically 80 to 85% of voters have been pretty locked in their position for a long time.

Speaker 29 In that poll, 14% said the debate made them reconsider who they were supporting.

Speaker 30 I imagine most of those are Trump supporters, but and then 4% said they'd actually changed their mind.

Speaker 8 And I think it's important that we think about this debate differently than any other presidential debate we've ever had, because usually the debate is the closing pitch.

Speaker 18 It's where you try to close the deal because the candidates have been campaigning for well over a year.

Speaker 24 They've been running ads.

Speaker 13 They are well known to the voters in that moment.

Speaker 21 Kamala Harris, for most people, just like popped up two months ago.

Speaker 20 They still didn't know her.

Speaker 21 So this is not her closing pitch.

Speaker 33 This is her in front of a giant audience making the initial sale to try to get people to be open to her.

Speaker 8 And the fact that 14% of people have moved and most of those probably have at least are now openly considering her.

Speaker 19 That's a win, but there's a lot more work to do.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I think we have to

Speaker 5 look at people's decision about who to vote for, not as like an on and off switch where they see the debate and suddenly they change their minds overnight.

Speaker 5 Like this is sort of a journey for a lot of voters, undecided voters.

Speaker 5 And I think it's clear that for most undecided voters, at least what we're seeing in the data, what we're hearing in the focus groups, they came away with a more favorable impression of Kamala Harris, and they learned more about Kamala Harris that they liked.

Speaker 5 If they haven't changed their mind yet, it sounds like it's because they haven't heard enough from her yet. They want to know more.
They want more, more details, they want to see more of her.

Speaker 5 They probably want to see her, you know, doing interviews, talking to people in other settings, right? And so,

Speaker 5 you know, we've talked for over a year now about sort of originally Biden and now Kamala Harris wanting to force a choice, right?

Speaker 5 To say, here's Donald Trump, here's me, and let's make people decide who maybe haven't been paying attention.

Speaker 5 And I do think, you know, unlike either of the conventions, Democratic or Republican, the debate was the first time voters got to see the two candidates who were running against each other for president, one of whom will be president, on stage together next to each other for 90 minutes.

Speaker 5 And they came away thinking that Kamala Harris did much better. Our friends at the

Speaker 5 center left blueprint polling also asked voters which lines and messages made them more likely to vote for Kamala Harris and against Donald Trump.

Speaker 5 I thought this was probably more useful than any top-line number about who might have changed their minds.

Speaker 5 Anything stand out to you from that poll or others we've seen so far, like other data points that actually would help with the campaign's message and all of us as volunteers as we're going out trying to convince people?

Speaker 31 So two things.

Speaker 34 One, the

Speaker 20 essentially the best testing message in the entire poll from that debate was Kamala Harris's line that she's not Joe Biden.

Speaker 24 She's certainly not Donald Trump, but she offers a new generation of leadership.

Speaker 18 And fits with what I think has been probably both of our theory of this race, which is her ability to represent something different, to turn the page on the Trump era is really the key to victory here.

Speaker 37 Because in that Times poll, voters wanted change and most voters thought that she represented more of the same.

Speaker 21 And so if she can change that and reframe this race and the fact where she is turning the page on Trump, that and sort of what we've been going through for the last many years here, that's a huge positive for her.

Speaker 35 The other thing, and I think this is really interesting, and it's interesting for people in the conversations they're going to have with the voters in their lives and also for how we think about the campaign strategy going forward is all the best messages were the positive ones, the ones that were about Kamala Harris and her values.

Speaker 22 And it really wasn't about Trump.

Speaker 20 And I think when you look at that CNN poll to try to merge these two polls together, people's opinions of Donald Trump did not change.

Speaker 25 They did not think worse of him after that debate.

Speaker 13 Like his unfavorability rating did not really go up. It didn't really move.

Speaker 21 And so when people are trying to make their decision, when they're on that journey that you're talking about, they already know what they need to know about Trump.

Speaker 16 And so they're going to cross the line, cross the Rubicon to vote for Kamala Harris based on what they learn about her over these next 50 some days.

Speaker 13 And I think that's just really important as we think about how we're going to, what we are posting on social, what we're sharing with in our friends and families, group chats, et cetera, is that what they really want is they want to know about Kamala Harris, who she is, her plans, et cetera, more than they need one more clip of Trump acting like a nutcase.

Speaker 5 Well, and we heard one of the women we heard from in that clip said, you know, people think that you can separate character from policy, and I don't know how you can do that.

Speaker 5 The voters who still haven't made up their minds yet about who to vote for or whether they're going to vote at all, most of them don't like Donald Trump and they don't think he has a great character.

Speaker 5 They have already decided that. They are still considering him because they haven't separated character from policy yet.

Speaker 5 And they're still thinking, yeah, maybe she has a better character and she's more honest and a fresh face, stuff like that.

Speaker 5 But I'm still, I don't know if her policies are better, if she's going to be a better president than him, even though he's kind of an asshole. That's the voter that we're talking about here.

Speaker 5 And that can frustrate all of you, as it does us,

Speaker 5 but

Speaker 5 it's something to keep in mind. And to your point, first of all, I am not Joe Biden and I'm certainly not Donald Trump.
What I do is offer a new generation of leadership for the country.

Speaker 5 We hadn't even seen the blueprint polling yet, but when she said that line in the debate, there were cheers from our office.

Speaker 5 Because we just knew, we knew that from all the data that we had seen, that that would work well. And sure enough, it did.

Speaker 5 The other best testing lines, the true measure of a leader is who actually understands that strength is not beating people down, it's lifting people up, right?

Speaker 5 Which again, I'm sure a lot of us political, hardened, cynical political junkies would think that that's maybe too gauzy and positive. And, you know, that's voters like that.

Speaker 5 We don't want this kind of approach that's just constantly trying to divide us, especially by race. We don't want a leader who is constantly trying to have Americans point their fingers at each other.

Speaker 5 That was another top testing line. And then on issues, no surprise here, right around those lines that I just mentioned, restoring Roe v.

Speaker 5 Wade, strengthening the Affordable Care Act and bringing down drug costs, Kamala saying Trump has no plan for you. And then

Speaker 5 the only negative message about Trump that tested in that top range was her talking about the Trump sales tax, the 20% tax on everyday goods that's $4,000 more a year for families.

Speaker 5 This is how she described the tariffs, which was great because she didn't even have to describe what a tariff is.

Speaker 39 She didn't use the word, which I appreciate.

Speaker 5 No, she just called it a Trump sales tax. And it turns out it was maybe the strongest negative message against Trump.

Speaker 5 The only other thing I'll point out is I saw the New York Times has been talking to undecided voters, not the random story about how, that they ran, about how, that some of you may have seen, about how for some undecided voters, she didn't close the deal.

Speaker 5 But there's like a panel of undecided voters that they've been following around that's that's actually the right sample scientifically and not just like random people that they talk to in a diner.

Speaker 5 And Patrick Keeley of the New York Times said he was talking to some of these younger undecided voters after the debate.

Speaker 5 And he has a comment from a 24-year-old undecided voter that he said reflected the sentiments of a lot of people in the group after the debate about Trump.

Speaker 5 And he said, he doesn't necessarily scare me. I think he's incompetent.
What scares me is the people he surrounded himself with and how they can use him. Laura Loomer was on the plane with him.

Speaker 5 The Heritage Foundation and all the plans they have.

Speaker 5 It just seems like he's a vessel for other people who are way more competent and have way more plans to do stuff that I personally don't agree with.

Speaker 5 I feel like they're going to use him and get policies enacted that I personally don't agree with.

Speaker 5 I love that comment because I think it gets at a truth of how people see Trump.

Speaker 5 And we've talked a lot about how some voters don't see him as that extreme on abortion, even though they know that it was his Supreme Supreme Court justices that overturned Roe and

Speaker 5 they don't trust him, stuff like that. But people are starting to understand that Project 2025, you know, fucking Laura Loomer on the plane.

Speaker 5 For those who don't know, she said she's a proud Islamophobe. She's already tweeting horribly racist things about Kamala Harris.

Speaker 5 All you have to know about her is she's in a fight with Marjorie Taylor Green right now, where Marjorie Taylor Green says she's too extreme and racist for the MAGA movement.

Speaker 19 She's the one person Marjorie Taylor Greene would fight with where you'd think about rooting for Marjorie Taylor Greene.

Speaker 5 That's how you do that. That's right.
Yeah. That's how bad.
That's all you have to know about Laura Loomer. And she's been on the plane with Trump.
She was his debate guest. She's his buddy now.

Speaker 21 She's a 9-11 truther and she went to the 9-11 Memorial with him.

Speaker 5 Sorry. Yes, I forgot.
That was a big one.

Speaker 17 Because if I didn't say that, Tommy was going to bust through into the studio like a Kool-Aid man.

Speaker 5 He's so mad about it. I know.
But that 24-year-old from California who is undecided,

Speaker 5 I think that is the more effective argument about Trump for people who think maybe he's a little different or maybe he's he's not that bad, or he's like bullshit, but like, you know, he's actually not that extreme or conservative.

Speaker 5 It's that he has,

Speaker 5 as Kamal Harris said in the debate, he is easily duped.

Speaker 5 He is easily manipulated.

Speaker 5 And he's going to have a bunch of extreme, extreme far-right people around him, more so than he ever has before, that if he gets back to the White House, are going to do whatever the fuck they want because Donald Trump doesn't really care because he's easily manipulated.

Speaker 5 And I think that is a very effective argument for for undecided swing voters.

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Speaker 5 One person who begs to differ on the outcome of the debate: Donald Trump, whose kink is saying that he won things he actually lost. Not all of his usual pals are buying the spin this time, though.

Speaker 5 Here's Britt Hume and Neil Cavuto of Fox News, MAGA, Maha Surrogate RFK Jr., and Republican pollster Frank Luntz.

Speaker 7 Make no mistake about it. Trump had a bad night.

Speaker 2 He decisively lost.

Speaker 1 Vice President Harris clearly won the debate.

Speaker 49 I've spoken to people on his team and

Speaker 49 members of his family. They feel like the same way that I do.
I think that there were some lost opportunities.

Speaker 50 Donald Trump lost. This is not the worst debate performance I've seen in my career, but it's very close to it.
It was a pretty negative performance, pretty pessimistic, cynical.

Speaker 50 And I think that this will cost him.

Speaker 50 Yes.

Speaker 50 I'm trying to decide if I want to go on record, and the answer is yes. I think that he loses because of this debate performance.

Speaker 5 Wow. Wow.
That was fun to listen to also.

Speaker 11 That's what I would listen to over and over again.

Speaker 5 More than the undecided vote. I mean, I like them too, but this is more enjoyable.

Speaker 5 Hearing Frank Luntz just bring himself to say on Piers Morgan, oh, he lost. I think the debate lost it for him.

Speaker 5 We almost, by the way, Reed didn't want to put this clip in because he didn't want to jinx it, which was a good thought

Speaker 5 on Reed's behalf. And I thought about that too.
So we're not saying, again, we're not saying so much more work to do. He could easily win.

Speaker 5 And, you know, Frank Luntz, maybe you don't take his prediction seriously. You know, we're just having fun.

Speaker 16 We take our superstitions politically very seriously here.

Speaker 21 And I went through an entire calculus on this when Reed brought it up.

Speaker 18 And us saying it would be possibly a karma violation.

Speaker 19 Frank Luntz saying it doesn't have anything to do with karma for us.

Speaker 15 So it's okay.

Speaker 5 Yeah, we're not telling you to believe anything Frank Lunt says. RFK Jr., great surrogate, by the way.
How helpful is that?

Speaker 39 I'm shocked he's not better at this.

Speaker 30 Just truly shocked.

Speaker 23 I mean, have you known him before the brain worm?

Speaker 13 He was great then, but now I don't know.

Speaker 5 This is his big week. You know, the guy who's been,

Speaker 5 he's had a lot of roadkill animal stuff.

Speaker 23 Was the whale thing this week?

Speaker 5 No, I'm saying it's a big week for him because of the Springfield.

Speaker 39 Oh, I know, I see. Yes, yes.

Speaker 5 You know, but he's been, I guess he's been, you'd think he'd want to sit back because he's had some

Speaker 5 pet issues himself. Yeah.

Speaker 39 Animal issues himself. That's why.

Speaker 5 So all this is, of course, driving Trump nuts. He posted on Truth Social that Neil Cavuto is is one of the worst on television uh he said he'd rather go with the losers at msdnc

Speaker 5 and then yeah that's tough and then in much bigger news trump made it clear on thursday that he is too afraid to face kamala harris again because we've done two debates and because they were successful there will be no third debate

Speaker 5 that's it No third debate.

Speaker 5 I guess that's that, huh?

Speaker 5 Are you surprised he already threw in the towel the day after or two days after?

Speaker 16 I don't know what I don't know that he, yeah, we have just been talking about this debate non-stop for 72 hours now.

Speaker 34 Um, I'm not sure he threw in the towel.

Speaker 5 You think he might reconsider if the polls go badly?

Speaker 26 He backed out of the debate we just had like three different times.

Speaker 25 So I think it's possible.

Speaker 29 Oftentimes with Trump, this sort of thing is the beginning of a negotiating ploy.

Speaker 20 Maybe this is how he pushes for Fox.

Speaker 7 Who knows? I don't know that there's a lot real, there's a real plan here,

Speaker 29 but I can definitely see him being goaded into, possibly being goaded into doing another one.

Speaker 13 He's not someone super well acquainted with his own best interests, so maybe he will do another debate.

Speaker 5 Well, it's interesting that you said it could be the opening of a negotiating ploy.

Speaker 5 If you're the Harris campaign, do you fight for another debate at this point? 100%.

Speaker 22 Yes.

Speaker 5 Because I mean, I know we said that it was in her interest to do it, which is why they said we'll see you at the next debate. Now that he said no, I'm wondering how hard they push it.

Speaker 5 But I still think you want another big audience.

Speaker 8 She needs another debate.

Speaker 24 She absolutely does.

Speaker 8 If you, one of the things in that CNN poll, not to keep coming back to it, is Trump exits that debate with a 12-point advantage on the economy.

Speaker 18 And that's the big, this is through no fault of hers.

Speaker 25 It's just that the way that debate went is the first two questions from the economy, Trump answered one of those questions about immigration, and we were off to the races onto mythically

Speaker 53 missing cats.

Speaker 26 And that is the biggest thing she needs to do.

Speaker 29 That was her biggest audience to do it.

Speaker 33 She did not get an opportunity.

Speaker 13 She came back through a middle-class background at seven points, but the debate did not allow for a huge, big conversation on the economy.

Speaker 26 And that's what she has to fix.

Speaker 25 And so having another opportunity in front of another incredibly large audience to do that is, I think, incredibly important if she can get it.

Speaker 23 She can win without it, obviously, but there is so much more work to do here.

Speaker 27 And a debate would be very helpful to be back on that stage for that reason.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 And again, for all the hundreds of millions of dollars that she has raised and the ads she'll run and the campaigning she and the rest of the ticket and spouses and everyone else is doing all over the swing states, you're still not going to get an audience as big as a debate audience to deliver your message, which is why that's really valuable.

Speaker 29 And even a debate audience, like even that audience of 67 million people is less than half of the 2020 electorate.

Speaker 5 Yeah. And we know that the 160 million, right?

Speaker 15 160 million. Yeah.

Speaker 13 I think 158 maybe.

Speaker 22 I don't know.

Speaker 12 But we know what we do know is that the voters who are most persuadable, most undecided, most swingy are the ones least likely to watch the debate, least likely to watch, to consume at least traditional media coverage of of the debate.

Speaker 18 And so, so that you may ask the question: why do a second debate?

Speaker 19 It's because you need another moment where obviously people will hear about this through Osmosis, or maybe closer to the end, they will tune in if it's in October, as it would likely be.

Speaker 5 So, what do you make of the outbreak of honesty among some of these Republican media types?

Speaker 39 I would just say that Donald Trump's debate performance was so bad that the people who deny climate change couldn't deny this.

Speaker 5 It's just

Speaker 5 Suddenly, they found like shame crept back into their minds. They couldn't

Speaker 39 themselves to shame.

Speaker 29 I mean, obviously, the most obsequious MAGA types are

Speaker 25 chilling for Trump here, but it's impossible to defend.

Speaker 19 It's absolutely impossible.

Speaker 20 It was an, he knew he was losing from the look on his face from about 35 minutes into that debate.

Speaker 16 You couldn't really say otherwise.

Speaker 23 And so they will say he did poorly, but then we won't talk about this, pivot and blame other, other factors for why he did so poorly.

Speaker 34 But, you know, there was,

Speaker 29 no, you couldn't, if you were a person who at least pretends half the time to be somewhat

Speaker 38 to the journalistic center of Sean Hannity, like Britt Hume does, then you kind of had to say this.

Speaker 14 Yeah.

Speaker 5 I mean, I think they, they, those people probably realize that most people who watch the debate had working eyes and ears and they could see it with their, with, see themselves.

Speaker 5 And you can't really bullshit people on that.

Speaker 5 So the Trump campaign has been telling reporters on background that Trump supposedly had detailed plans and talking points for the debate that would have helped him avoid taking the bait from Kamala Harris and pivot back to his core message.

Speaker 5 Do you think any of these people have ever met Donald Trump prior to the debate?

Speaker 8 It's so funny because if you read, there's a great bulwark story from Marco Caputo about this.

Speaker 26 And in it, they talk about how he had these very detailed strategic plans.

Speaker 8 And the one they cite is how he was going to pivot off the cat story that he himself brings up.

Speaker 30 So it's like they had decided that this very serious policy, happy warrior Trump, could not be convinced to not bring up the fake cat story, but they prepared him for how to get to the cat story and then pivot to the larger Biden administration immigration record, whatever else.

Speaker 33 I mean, they did debate prep with Matt Gates and Tulsi Gabbard.

Speaker 5 And he just couldn't execute. He just couldn't execute the play.
What a surprise. Let Trump be Trump.

Speaker 25 I mean, obviously, put aside the idea that he ever had detailed plans or a concept of a plan for how to do this debate or whatever you want to say.

Speaker 32 He obviously, and they've been clear in their report on this.

Speaker 23 He had a strategic objective.

Speaker 23 They announced it in a conference call with this collection of morons who did debate prep that what they were going to do is they were going to tie her to the Biden administration record on inflation and immigration.

Speaker 13 And he could not do that.

Speaker 13 He could not execute because he's an adult, old man who's obsessed with himself.

Speaker 14 Like, he just could not execute it.

Speaker 5 And by the way, her pointing that out out is not just fan service for all of us who've already known that.

Speaker 5 It is showing people, and I think it has showed people, and I just had voice, like this man, imagine him in the Oval Office. Like he can't follow a plan.
He has no discipline.

Speaker 5 He can't control himself. And that can be funny or politically fruitful if you're Kamala Harris in the context of a debate.

Speaker 5 But when you're leading the free world, it might be problematic, might be a riskier choice to send him back to the White House.

Speaker 19 Which reason why that's important is in that New York Times Siena poll, Kamala Harris and Donald Trump were tied in terms of who is a riskier choice.

Speaker 16 Yep.

Speaker 5 So not all of Trump's sycophants have given up on making excuses for his bad debate. Most of them are blaming ABC News and the moderators.

Speaker 5 Ben Shapiro said the network, quote, put a stake through the heart of presidential debates. And Charlie Kirk likened it to a show trial where ABC News was the executioner.

Speaker 5 MAGA Kooks are also calling moderator Lindsey Davis and Kamala Harris sorority sisters because they were part of the same historically black sorority, even though they graduated from different colleges several years apart.

Speaker 5 And the sorority has 360,000 members.

Speaker 5 So that's, yeah,

Speaker 5 they're buddies. Trump himself

Speaker 5 is calling the moderators all kinds of names, saying that ABC News should lose its broadcast license. Sean Davis over at the Federalist

Speaker 5 The guy who runs the Federalist he said that they should be arrested the moderators should be arrested and charged with campaign interference

Speaker 5 is that a law I'm being sure that's a law it's not a law it's not a law Dan Trump also had more to say about his performance at a rally in Tucson on Thursday

Speaker 51 as everyone saw two nights ago we had a monumental victory over comrade Kamala Harris in the presidential debate. Two low-life anchors in lowlives.

Speaker 51 I'm not going to watch him because he's not legit what he did. I'm not going to watch him.

Speaker 51 And his hair is not as good as it used to be, you know? And she was nasty. She looked at me with hatred in her eyes.
People said that I was angry at the debate. Angry.

Speaker 49 I was angry.

Speaker 51 And yes, I am angry because he allowed 21 million illegal aliens invading our communities.

Speaker 51 Many of them are criminals.

Speaker 51 Many are criminals.

Speaker 49 I'm angry.

Speaker 5 Wow. So that was a little bit about David Muir's hair.
A little bit about Lindsay Davis' hate in her eyes. He's angry.

Speaker 5 We don't have this part of the clip, but at one point, he talked about the situation in Springfield and said, all these Haitian immigrants are coming into Springfield. Who knows where they're from?

Speaker 39 Who could venture a guess?

Speaker 5 I'm sure all of the complaining about the moderators and ABC, sure that's landing with Trump supporters. Do you think that kind of whining is going to land with anyone else?

Speaker 29 I don't think most people are hearing it, right?

Speaker 24 It's fan service, right? It's just to

Speaker 20 make your megabase feel better about the disaster they watched.

Speaker 16 And there is just a truism in politics that the side complaining about the moderators is the side that lost the debate.

Speaker 24 That is always true. It was true when Democrats were complaining about the CNN moderators after the Biden-Trump debate.

Speaker 19 That is always the case.

Speaker 25 To the extent anyone hears it, it just sounds like more fucking whining about something involving himself.

Speaker 29 And this is, you can see the seeds of the campaign in trying to manage Trump here, which is, I'm angry, but I'm angry.

Speaker 11 What he was trying to execute there quite poorly, I would say, was allow him to blather on about the debate.

Speaker 18 And then he's going to say he's angry, but he's angry on behalf of you for all, for immigration or whatever else, but he can't do it.

Speaker 25 And he, the part where he's talking about himself, he has passion and vigor.

Speaker 16 And the part where he's talking about everyone else, he's reading a script.

Speaker 28 And that is like how that is downloaded.

Speaker 5 Which is what Kamala Harris said. Yeah.

Speaker 5 She said, go to one of his rallies, and the one thing you won't hear is anything about you because he has no plans for you because he doesn't care about anyone but himself. Which, by the way, also,

Speaker 5 he announced in a video today that in a couple days he's coming out with his own crypto.

Speaker 40 I mean, what? Like, that does not get enough attention.

Speaker 5 50-something days before the election, crypto?

Speaker 8 He's doing it at Twitter Spaces on September 16th.

Speaker 5 I hope. That's right, a Twitter spaces.
Yeah.

Speaker 11 That's a Monday, I think.

Speaker 5 I don't know. I don't know.

Speaker 14 That's what he's going to do.

Speaker 5 He's just, it's a money-making fucking scheme. That's it.

Speaker 29 The idea that he is doing this 50 days before the election and it's not one of the biggest stories is just sort of wild.

Speaker 52 Like, there's a lot of big stories, so I don't want to play that game, but it's just, it is a truly insane thing to do.

Speaker 25 It's crazier than selling the Bipoles with League Rewind.

Speaker 35 It's crazier than that.

Speaker 5 Well, before we we move on to Kamala Harris, we should note that the other message MAGA World is driving post-debate has to do with the issue that most voters are focused on, which is whether or not immigrants in Springfield, Ohio are eating people's pets.

Speaker 5 An update, but they're still not. But thanks to Trump and J.D.

Speaker 5 Vance repeating this deranged conspiracy to millions of people, the Springfield News Sun reports that multiple city, county, and school buildings were closed on Thursday due to a bomb threat while Haitian immigrants are saying that they're scared for their families' lives.

Speaker 5 Meanwhile, a Trump advisor told the bulwark, quote, if anyone thinks we're scared to talk about Haitians eating pets, they're wrong. Yeah, no shit.
They don't seem scared to do that.

Speaker 5 Here I'm reminded of Kamala Harris's convention speech line that Trump is an unserious man whose second term as president would come with extremely serious consequences. What do you think?

Speaker 5 Is this a storyline to be mocked, feared, both? Both.

Speaker 25 Like Trump should be mocked for this because it's

Speaker 53 absurd. It's embarrassing.

Speaker 21 It's unpresidential.

Speaker 13 It just shows like what, as Kamal Harris would say, an unserious person.

Speaker 22 But

Speaker 11 this is yet another on a long line of incidents over the last nine years of American politics where Donald Trump and the far-right media and the Republican Party as a whole have said things, spread conspiracy theories, and those conspiracy theories have led to real world consequences, including violence.

Speaker 29 Like, do we remember when in 2016, a gunman showed up at Comet Pizza in Washington, D.C.

Speaker 17 because of all the Pizzagate conspiracies?

Speaker 20 That person showed up there to try to rescue children from a pizza place because of what was spreading around the internet, being pushed by Trump allies.

Speaker 23 We've seen these mass shootings that have been where the shooters have talked about great replacement theory, something that is being pushed by Tucker Carlson and a bunch of other people in the far right.

Speaker 21 Like there is a history here and it is, it is deeply dangerous.

Speaker 13 And so, yes, we should make fun of Trump, but we should understand, as Kamala Harris would say, that there are very serious consequences for his unserious behavior.

Speaker 5 And, you know, I think the Bulwark was also interviewing some folks in Springfield, and what they're finding is a lot of the residents in Springfield are now saying they've heard about the rumors from Trump and J.D.

Speaker 5 Vance or something that they saw on the internet, not something that they've seen in their community. Of course.
And in fact, like...

Speaker 5 So yes, the background here for Springfield is a lot of Haitian immigrants came over the last couple of years. They are, first of all, legal immigrants.

Speaker 5 They got asylum from Haiti, which is horribly violent right now. And so they escaped.
They came to the United States all legally. And there were all these job opportunities in Springfield.

Speaker 5 So they came. Now, because there's so many new people in Springfield, it has put like some strain on social services and there have been some issues.

Speaker 5 But when you talk to people in Springfield and when they ask people, so many of them were saying, well, these Haitian immigrants are some of the best workers we have in our factories.

Speaker 5 And it's actually not that big of a deal. And it's getting blown up by the national press.

Speaker 5 And so you see how this happens, where maybe there's some tension with newcomers in a town in Ohio, and then the right-wing crazies get involved.

Speaker 5 And the larger the platform, when it gets, by the time it gets to J.D.

Speaker 5 Vance, and then it gets to Donald Trump on a debate stage in front of 67 million people, suddenly conspiracies are floating around that are really going to put people in danger who live in the town.

Speaker 5 Both the Haitian immigrants and the residents of Springfield, because now there's just crazies all over the place. It's insane.

Speaker 5 It is so insane. It is so insane.
But it also should be mocked.

Speaker 5 And right now, on TikTok, by the way, people are remixing the Donald Trump saying they're eating cats and dogs, and it's just, it's fire. Some of those remixes are fire.

Speaker 17 Did you just say it's fire?

Speaker 5 It's fire. Yeah.
And it's hard to say this because are you speaking in

Speaker 21 an emoji now? Like, what is happening?

Speaker 5 I don't even know you.

Speaker 40 You go on TikTok for six minutes and you start saying,

Speaker 5 look, it's fire brain has been pickled. It's gone.
It's fast. It's great.

Speaker 5 i mean come on um but it's insane and i i don't i i can't tell now if they're gonna stop it uh because they're just gonna get bored with it or like they're they're gonna keep keep riding this one now they're just gonna keep talking about springfield ohio i would imagine i can't imagine that they find that this you think it you think the latter they're just gonna keep doing this i mean for a while until they found it find a new absurd thing like we had an entire episode explainer on gas stove confiscation a couple years ago.

Speaker 11 They take these things for a long, pretty far away.

Speaker 5 Let me ask you something before we move on to this. Like, it seems like the two best issues for Trump are the economy, inflation, and immigration.

Speaker 5 It seems very much like he does not want to talk about his best issue, which according to the polls is inflation and the economy, and only wants to talk about immigration.

Speaker 5 Do you think that that could ultimately be a mistake for him?

Speaker 18 Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 5 For sure. Like, it seems like he just can't.
He has no interest in driving an economic contrast or an economic message.

Speaker 21 The same reason that Donald Trump doesn't like to talk about the economy is the same reason why the press rarely writes about the economy.

Speaker 35 It doesn't drive engagement, right?

Speaker 13 We go to a rally and he starts talking about the cost of living.

Speaker 11 People don't go nuts.

Speaker 25 You spew some conspiracy theory about immigrants eating cats, crowd goes crazy.

Speaker 28 And so, and he is.

Speaker 34 just very Pavlovian when it comes to applause.

Speaker 21 And so he, this is like that New York, that North Carolina rally from a few weeks ago where he got there, started reading the economic parts of the speech.

Speaker 20 No one applauded.

Speaker 15 So he just went down all the rabbit holes.

Speaker 20 So yeah, I think it's hard for him to do.

Speaker 13 Now the campaign is advertising on the economy, right?

Speaker 24 They have a new ad up, which has quotes of Kamala Harris saying Bidenomics is working.

Speaker 5 Like they are, they are hammering that.

Speaker 5 What's popping, listeners?

Speaker 45 I'm Lacey Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week, I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time.

Speaker 45 Want to know about the fake heirs? We got them. What about a career con man? We've got them too.
Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins.

Speaker 45 Oh, you know they are represented because representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Beyer, Ira Madison III, Conan O'Brien, and more.

Speaker 45 Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 5 All right, let's talk about Kamala Harris. Her team has their foot in the gas after their big win Tuesday night.

Speaker 5 Apparently, they brought in $47 million from 600,000 donors within the first 24 hours after the debate. On Thursday, they released two new ads that incorporate debate footage.

Speaker 5 You can always tell which campaign thinks they won the debate because they put out ads that didn't have the debate footage in them. Trump did not do that.
Kamala Harris did.

Speaker 5 One ad does the future versus past, optimism versus pessimism contrast. It includes the great Harris line where she said she offers the new generation of leadership.

Speaker 5 The other ad is a cutdown of the debate exchange over abortion.

Speaker 5 Politico also has a story saying the Harris campaign is going to be stepping up the pace of their events and interviews, including interviews with less traditional outlets, something Trump has been doing a lot of.

Speaker 5 And the campaign launched their post-debate battleground tour on Thursday, starting with two Kamala Harris events in North Carolina. Here she is in Charlotte talking about the debate.

Speaker 41 Two nights ago, Donald Trump and I had our first debate.

Speaker 41 And I believe we owe it to the voters to have another debate

Speaker 41 because

Speaker 41 this election and what is at stake

Speaker 5 could not be more important. Now, she sounded like she was having a good time at that event.
How long do you think she keeps needling him about the debate?

Speaker 5 And anything else she can do to just keep this in the news a couple more days?

Speaker 33 I think needle him about the debate for a few more days, keep aggressively pushing publicly for another debate, call him out for being afraid to debate again.

Speaker 16 That's where, that's the next turn of the wheel, I think, is there.

Speaker 5 Yeah, calling him a chicken. Pluff was on Twitter calling him a chicken.

Speaker 22 He's excited.

Speaker 5 Good to have Pluff back in the mix. What did you think of the two new ads?

Speaker 18 They're good. I mean, they

Speaker 34 like so much of this campaign, they are very data-driven.

Speaker 5 And the things they put out are the things that the polls say work the abortion ad is very powerful and it's this sort of exact contrast i think it's the the when we always talk about like what ads should you send to the people and your you know the voters in your life who are curious and particularly the ones who are deciding between voting and not voting not necessarily voting between harris and trump and i think the abortion ad is a very powerful one like that is a that is a great one to send to send around to people well and i think you brought this up on our last pod that that pluff tweeted during the debate that how undecided voters reacted to both of their answers on abortion was like the biggest split we've ever seen.

Speaker 37 So 40-point swing.

Speaker 5 40-point swing, yeah. So that's probably why they went with that one.

Speaker 5 On the politico story about Harris doing more interviews with non-traditional outlets, do you have any advice for the campaign on that aside from go on Pod Save America?

Speaker 13 I've been pitching them directly to some polar coaster.

Speaker 26 Just so dig in the data.

Speaker 5 You and Elijah got them behind the paywall.

Speaker 26 It's a good way to reach undecided political poll junkies.

Speaker 12 i i mean i think this is to be very interesting what happens next here i think they've had a very good set of reasons for why they have been pretty reticent in the sort of media appearances she's been doing right they had they you know as we said before she woke up in the morning the vice president by brunch she was the democratic nominee she had to pick a vice president get ready for a convention prepare for a debate hire a staff do all these things and so but now here we are we're in the final stretch of 50 days and i think her media strategy has to be what I sometimes call is like everything, everywhere, all at once.

Speaker 23 She's got to do everything.

Speaker 38 And to her credit, she has been doing local radio almost every morning

Speaker 34 when she was in debate camp, getting ready for the debate.

Speaker 29 Keep doing that.

Speaker 8 She's going to have to sit down and do local TV interviews. But I think the bulk of where the energy has to be is in non-traditional stuff because.

Speaker 38 The voters that you need to reach are just impossible to reach through all the traditional tools of a campaign, including advertising on linear television.

Speaker 23 It is just so hard to reach, particularly young people, because they have cut the cord.

Speaker 15 They are on TikTok where there's no paid advertising.

Speaker 13 They are on Netflix, where there's no political advertising.

Speaker 20 They are on other platforms where there's no political coverage.

Speaker 13 They're just other than like major events, like really football games.

Speaker 29 it is very hard to reach them with ads.

Speaker 12 And so you're going to have to just be everywhere.

Speaker 35 And I, so, you know, have Kamala Harris go on hot ones, do Caller Daddy, have Tim Walls do every

Speaker 26 sports podcast you possibly can around football season.

Speaker 20 Have him do local sports radio before high school games as a former high school coach.

Speaker 18 Just be everywhere.

Speaker 12 Do lots of things. Take big swings.

Speaker 53 Take big risks.

Speaker 15 You have to do it.

Speaker 5 And by the way, we should say, like, this,

Speaker 5 that strategy probably will not satisfy a lot of reporters from traditional outlets who will say she's avoiding tough questions instead of she's avoiding the press because they'll think that you know the argument is they're more softball questions and non-traditional outlets.

Speaker 5 But it's less about the type of question for the hirest campaign than it is about the audience.

Speaker 5 Because like you, like you said, it's just a lot of voters that they need to reach are just not tuning into traditional media outlets and not getting their news from them.

Speaker 30 There was

Speaker 18 either like it would be great.

Speaker 25 She should take questions from the press.

Speaker 29 She should, you know, before when she gets off the plane or gets on the plane after an event, take questions, do that, just be out there.

Speaker 34 But there was this bargain that existed since the invention of media where candidates would take questions from the press.

Speaker 19 And oftentimes those questions were tough, but they're really often process-oriented.

Speaker 23 They weren't the questions that the campaign wanted.

Speaker 18 They weren't the campaign's message.

Speaker 23 But you took those questions.

Speaker 19 You suffer through that because you needed the reach of the media to reach the public.

Speaker 36 You still need some of that for sure, but just that relationship between journalism and reaching voters has been severed somewhat.

Speaker 25 And so you have like do some of that stuff.

Speaker 29 The CNN interview got 6.6 million viewers, which is good, but that's because it was sort of an event.

Speaker 21 The next one's not going to get that.

Speaker 11 You know, maybe one way to sort of, I think you can sort of square the circle on this is to do like a network town hall where, because that serves two versus one, you are taking questions from a reporter and voters.

Speaker 18 Voters.

Speaker 30 It's traditional media, but it's also usually covered by the rest of the press as an event.

Speaker 8 And so it's not, you know, because you just do a CNN interview.

Speaker 16 Generally, it's just going to be on CNN and no one else is going to really care.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 34 lean into the non-traditional stuff, take risks, and be incredibly aggressive because she's really good.

Speaker 38 And she's really, really good when she is just being a human talking about her life.

Speaker 16 And there's this great one.

Speaker 24 This is a great clip that's been going around on TikTok. Maybe it's fire.
I don't know.

Speaker 5 Where.

Speaker 5 Sorry, you've never heard that before.

Speaker 18 Never heard it from you.

Speaker 23 I've heard it, just not from you.

Speaker 5 My Gen X co-host.

Speaker 32 You have the spirit.

Speaker 16 You may be a millennial, but you have the soul of a silent generation member.

Speaker 5 Look, I haven't gone as far as Tommy talking about Riz, this, and that.

Speaker 5 We're not there yet.

Speaker 32 But there's this great,

Speaker 20 God, I wish I remember what it was called, but it's a show where they ask you, they play a little music and you have to guess the artist and then talk about your relationship with it, which talks about CV Wonder and Miles Davis.

Speaker 5 And it is awesome.

Speaker 12 And like, there's, we've talked before about the Mindy Kaling cooking video from 2019, like that sort of stuff, more and more of that.

Speaker 5 And by the way, there's a lot of these non-traditional outlets where you can talk substantively about your plans and policies for voters who want to know more about what you're going to do.

Speaker 5 Like it doesn't have to all be sort of like human interest, cultural lighter stuff, right?

Speaker 5 Like it can be a mix of that and like letting people know what you're going to do as president, which is what a lot of like some of the low info, less engaged, more cynical voters are going to want to know.

Speaker 5 So before we go, the other big news from Tuesday night, of course, was Taylor Swift's endorsement of Kamala Harris.

Speaker 5 CNN has reported that in the 24-hour period after Swift posted, more than 405,000 people had clicked the link she shared to vote.gov. Most days, traffic is about 30,000 people.

Speaker 5 She also encouraged people to register at the VMAs on Wednesday night when she spoke and won a VMA.

Speaker 5 And even though MAGA World has plenty to be angry about between Trump's debate performance and the spate of petnapping and cat eating in Springfield.

Speaker 5 They've still saved some outrage for the world's biggest pop star. Let's listen.

Speaker 54 We admire Taylor Swift's music, but I don't think most Americans, whether they like her music or fans of hers or not, are going to be influenced by a billionaire celebrity who I think is fundamentally disconnected from the interests and the problems of most Americans.

Speaker 44 I was not a Taylor Swift fan, and she'll probably pay a price for it

Speaker 44 in the marketplace.

Speaker 5 But the other thing about all this is what makes you think that the way you think should influence other people you sing for a living just deal with that i'm allowed to criticize taylor swift and i don't give a shit who gets upset this is disgusting f you taylor swift megan kelly someday megan kelly is going through something

Speaker 5 she is yeah she's ever since she's off she's gotten even the last couple of months it's just gotten steadily weirder and more extreme. She's so angry.

Speaker 5 She thinks it's disgusting because Taylor in her post said she's particularly happy that Kamala chose Tim Walls. And she said that, you know, Tim Walls in Minnesota has stood up for LGBT people.

Speaker 5 And, you know, he remembered

Speaker 5 he sort of was the head of the Gay Straight Alliance at the high school, right? All the stories. But she takes it as like, I don't know.

Speaker 5 She went down this whole conspiracy with Tim Walls, and it's like, it's

Speaker 5 who knows? What do you think about all this? Like, what, what?

Speaker 5 I continue to think that going hard negative on the most popular recording artist in the world is not a good strategy.

Speaker 33 No, it is not a good strategy.

Speaker 15 It makes you look fucking ridiculous,

Speaker 15 which first point.

Speaker 23 Two, J.D.

Speaker 8 Vance is, I know he went to Yale Law, but he is an adult.

Speaker 5 If only we

Speaker 5 saying who's going to listen to a billionaire disconnect, the Harris campaign should put that in an ad and then put a picture of Donald Trump after he says the line. There.
There's

Speaker 30 a billionaire celebrity made J.D.

Speaker 16 Vance abandon everything he stood for.

Speaker 25 But the reason like

Speaker 13 Judge Janine Pirot and Megan Kelly are doing this is because they're not trying to win an election.

Speaker 12 They are trying to get engagement. And talking about Taylor Swift, being angry about Taylor Swift, loving Taylor Swift will get people on the internet to pay attention to you.

Speaker 34 And that's what that was.

Speaker 7 There's not real anger.

Speaker 29 Like she is a naturally angry human being.

Speaker 18 I believe that.

Speaker 20 But Megan Kelly did that little performance so that we would talk about her, she'd go viral, more people would pay attention to her.

Speaker 8 Remember that she was once on a network television show and now she does whatever she does.

Speaker 18 It's just the whole people, they're ridiculous. They're a ridiculous group of people.

Speaker 27 It's a crazy thing to be bad about.

Speaker 5 Also, Donald Trump saying she thinks she's going to pay a price in the marketplace. We'll see, pal.
We'll see. And then like Elon Musk's weird, creepy tweet about it.

Speaker 39 Oh, I didn't even see

Speaker 39 this.

Speaker 5 Oh my God. Hold on.
Hold on.

Speaker 39 Pull it up right here.

Speaker 5 Let's do do this live pull it up i'm gonna pull it up we can cut out some of the space here here we go okay so elon musk tweeted fine taylor you win i will give you a child and guard your cats with my life

Speaker 5 i mean they are just so the weird thing the weird thing is really it's you know what if you like even if you are for some reason haven't followed elon musk's trip down the rabbit hole over the last several years like you see him talking about, like, I will give you a child, Taylor Swift.

Speaker 5 What the fuck is wrong with this person? Weird.

Speaker 22 You're right.

Speaker 5 Weird, weird. Megan Kelly saying, fuck you, Taylor.

Speaker 39 What is going on with these people?

Speaker 5 Like, how dare?

Speaker 15 How dare someone?

Speaker 29 How dare a celebrity get involved in politics?

Speaker 13 Well, I don't know why that would be so offensive.

Speaker 39 I can imagine why this Republicans are so offended by it.

Speaker 5 Unbelievable. Anyway, what a great week.

Speaker 22 Gorilla. Great.

Speaker 5 There's going to be tough weeks ahead. It's a close race.
Who knows what's going to happen? Right now, we're We're having a good time.

Speaker 39 That debate was great.

Speaker 19 Watching Donald Trump melt down is great.

Speaker 20 Watching the Megan Kelly meltdown about Taylor Swift is great.

Speaker 5 It's all great. I mean, it's fantastic.
All right.

Speaker 5 You know, it would be even better if you went to votesaveamerica.com and signed up because we have four days left to help Vodesave America reach their goal of 75,000 volunteer signups by National Voter Registration Day on September 17th.

Speaker 5 If you haven't signed up yet, what are you waiting for? The race is close. Every action you take between now and election day can have a huge impact on the outcome.

Speaker 5 Visit votesaveamerica.com slash 2024 to get started now. And if you're already volunteering with VSA, you know, take it a step further.
Grab some friends. Have them register.

Speaker 5 Share Pod Save America with some of these friends who might not be listening. Get them to start listening, and then maybe they'll also sign up for VSA and help with the election.

Speaker 5 We need everyone to work hard, not just be happy about what a great week we had. Go to VSA now, votesaveamerica.com slash 2024.
This message has been paid for by Vodesave America.

Speaker 5 You can learn more at votesaveamerica.com and this ad has not been authorized by any candidate or candidates committee. That is our show for today.
Everyone have a great weekend.

Speaker 5 We will be back in your feeds on Tuesday morning with a brand new episode.

Speaker 38 Bye everyone.

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Speaker 5 Plus, if you're as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review to help boost this episode or spice up the group chat by sharing it with friends, family, or randos you want in on this conversation.

Speaker 5 Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producer is David Toledo.
Our associate producers are Saul Rubin and Ferris Safari.

Speaker 5 Reed Cherlin is our executive editor, and Adrian Hill is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.

Speaker 5 Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglund and Charlotte Landis. Writing support by Hallie Kiefer.
Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming.

Speaker 5 Matt DeGroote is our head of production. Andy Taft is our executive assistant.

Speaker 5 Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Phoebe Bradford, Joseph Dutra, Ben Hefcote, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kirill Pelavieve, and David Toles.

Speaker 5 What's poppin' listeners?

Speaker 45 I'm Lacey Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week, I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time.

Speaker 45 Want to know about the fake heirs? We got them. What about a career con man? We've got them too.
Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins.

Speaker 45 Oh, you know they are represented because representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Beyer, Ira Madison III, Conan O'Brien, and more.

Speaker 45 Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts.