Trump's Happy-Go-Lucky Debate Strategy

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Speaker 3 What's up, Phoenix?

Speaker 3 Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm John Favreau.

Speaker 4 I'm Jane Koston.

Speaker 5 I'm John Lubbitt.

Speaker 5 Tommy Vitor.

Speaker 3 I'm Dan Pfeiffer.

Speaker 3 We have a great show for you tonight. Your next senator from the great state of Arizona, Ruben Gallego, is here.

Speaker 3 We are also especially excited to have Jane with us tonight because she comes bearing big news starting Monday. Jane is going to be the new host of our daily news podcast, What a Day.

Speaker 4 That's right. You get to hear from me 20 minutes a day, every day, and it won't be about Michigan football, which doesn't exist for right now for reasons that I don't want to get into.

Speaker 4 Everything's totally fine. Notre Dame lost.
Everything's fine.

Speaker 3 So exciting. We got Jane to move to LA and everything.
I know.

Speaker 4 Pacific Coast, it's been beautiful, but I could not be more excited to be here in Phoenix, Arizona.

Speaker 4 You know,

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Speaker 4 Divided loyalty.

Speaker 4 I'm sorry, I got to say, go, Sun Devils.

Speaker 4 But most importantly,

Speaker 4 why was Carrie Lake at a Texas AM game?

Speaker 5 Yeah, that was weird.

Speaker 3 Like, with Ted Cruz.

Speaker 4 Like, with Ted Cruz, who, by the way, I really wish Ted Cruz had made it to Michigan, Texas, because that game would have gone very differently.

Speaker 5 Hey, and for anybody gay here.

Speaker 3 Hey, hey, hey. I know.

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Speaker 3 All right. Let's get to the news.

Speaker 3 Our last live show was exactly 50 days ago in Madison, Wisconsin.

Speaker 3 Less than 48 hours before Joe Biden passed the torch to Kamala Harris after

Speaker 3 the most consequential debate in history.

Speaker 3 We are now 70 hours away. from the first and so far only scheduled debate between Harris and Donald Trump, just one week before early voting begins in the 2024 election.

Speaker 3 Who's got a pit in their stomach? I don't feel good, but I feel better than I would. There you go.

Speaker 3 I'll take that. The vice president is off the trail preparing for the debate in a Pittsburgh hotel.
There's a replica stage, practice sessions, and a Trump stand-in who's gone full method.

Speaker 3 Shut up, Philippe. Yeah,

Speaker 3 Philippe Ryanis.

Speaker 5 I worked with Philippe now almost 20 years ago when I was first in D.C., and there is no one who would spend more time and effort learning every single mannerism and fact about a person than Philippe, a kind of deep and broken obsession.

Speaker 3 For people who don't know, Philippe also played Donald Trump

Speaker 3 to help prep Hillary Clinton during the 2016 debates. He was also full method then, wore like boxy suit, ties, and the whole thing.

Speaker 5 I don't know that he ever came out of it, frankly.

Speaker 3 That's a good question. I got dinner with him.
I got dinner with him a couple years ago. He ordered his burger well done.

Speaker 3 He's been stuck for the last nine years, whatever it's been.

Speaker 3 Anyway, Trump himself, ever the wonk, is preparing with what he calls policy time,

Speaker 3 which involves, I guess, huddling with

Speaker 3 his advisors and

Speaker 3 this.

Speaker 6 Her favorite show is Law and Order. And there's an almost exact

Speaker 6 story as her story in Law and Order about being attacked in the dressing room of a department. So I never met the woman other than this picture, which could have been AI generated.
I don't know.

Speaker 6 Showed up, I don't know, but it's fine. Nice picture.

Speaker 6 And I'm disappointed in my legal talent, I'll be honest with you.

Speaker 6 But this is a disgraceful case, and disgraceful in particular because it's about a former president of the United States who is now leading in the polls. If you look at the

Speaker 6 Nate Silver, very respected guy, I don't know him, but he has me up by a lot. I'm going into very hostile territory shortly on a debate with ABC, George, Slapadopoulos, and that group.

Speaker 6 And ABC, I think, is the worst of everybody. I think they're the worst.

Speaker 3 So I guess that was the message event for Friday.

Speaker 3 That's what they were pushing ahead of the debate.

Speaker 3 Quick 50-minute press conference, no questions. No questions.

Speaker 3 No questions. No questions.
Just complaining about his legal troubles.

Speaker 3 And Jane, he was complaining about his legal troubles, even though he got mostly good news this week on that front.

Speaker 3 The judge just postponed sentencing for his felony conviction until a few weeks after the election.

Speaker 3 You know, the wheels of justice.

Speaker 3 And the judge in the January 6th trial said that that won't begin until well into 2025, all of which means the outcome of this election for Trump is either the White House or the big house.

Speaker 3 But not your big house.

Speaker 3 Not your big house.

Speaker 3 Not your big house.

Speaker 3 How do you think, if at all, Kamala Harris should handle this in the debate?

Speaker 3 And then more broadly, like what's the overall case you think

Speaker 3 she should be prosecuted?

Speaker 4 I mean, personally, if she just spent a lot of time going,

Speaker 4 look at this fucking guy?

Speaker 4 Like,

Speaker 4 I nearly got distracted for a minute because when I was in high school, I used to come home every day and watch Law and Order, and I was like, all right, which season are we talking about?

Speaker 4 Because if Sam Watterson's involved, I'm in.

Speaker 4 But I really think that, like, something that she, I mean, she's talked about this before, that, like, remember in 2016 when he was like stalking Hillary Clinton around?

Speaker 4 And Kamala was like, if that would have been me, I would have turned around and been like, why are you being so weird?

Speaker 3 Like, I think that you're... Did she say that? She did.
That's cool.

Speaker 4 I think that if she talks about the issues that matter to people and also points out the fact that he is physically incapable of talking about anything that doesn't have to do with himself or the movie Blood Sport, which

Speaker 4 I will talk about, you know,

Speaker 4 if it would help

Speaker 4 him lose the presidential election, I will discuss the movie Blood Sport with him.

Speaker 3 All day.

Speaker 5 Is there a split in that movie, right, where he splits?

Speaker 3 He does the split and he holds it between two countertops if I remember yeah John Claude Bandana yeah we're all over that park

Speaker 3 I remember that scene

Speaker 5 the the signs were there

Speaker 3 Dan let's talk about the rules of the debate which are now set and similar to the Biden-Trump match in June no audience no pre-written notes Mike's muted when the other candidate is speaking, which the Harris campaign tried pretty hard to reverse.

Speaker 3 Apparently Apparently, the campaign still thinks there may be chaotic exchanges where ABC is forced to unmute both mics.

Speaker 4 You mean there's going to be chaos with Donald Trump?

Speaker 3 I know, it's wild.

Speaker 3 Who do you think won here? And how much do the rules matter, especially this whole mic debate that we've been dealing with?

Speaker 5 I think the muted mic debate matters. So as

Speaker 5 a bit of context,

Speaker 5 when Biden and Trump were negotiating debates, this was something that Biden really, really wanted in the debate, was for Trump's microphone to be muted because in the 2020 debates, Trump had interrupted Biden a whole bunch and Biden's team thought it would help them to have Trump's mic be muted.

Speaker 5 That turned out not to be the case because it sort of served as like a leash on Trump and we didn't hear what he was muttering to himself as Biden was speaking.

Speaker 5 And so the Harris people were smart to try to get that rule changed.

Speaker 5 And Trump's people, who understand the same thing the Biden people do, also tried to stop that rule from getting changed because they know, as the Harris people do, that Trump's speaking, particularly when he's agitated, is often bad for Trump.

Speaker 5 And so

Speaker 5 if you imagine a world where Kamala Harris is up there, she's saying the thing she's saying and Trump is reacting to that in real time and we can all hear that, that's good for Kamala Harris and bad for Trump.

Speaker 5 So this is, I think, an actual win for them. But what is important, and I think was good that they pitched this fight, was ABC has agency.
They can decide when it's muted and unmuted.

Speaker 5 And I think they will now feel some pressure to unmute Trump's mic periodically to try to get those organic exchanges, because I think that will end up netting out to Harris's benefit in this.

Speaker 3 I've been thinking about this on the mics because originally I was like, yeah, it would be better for what the Harris campaign wants, which is to have them unmuted the whole time.

Speaker 3 But if they're muted, it does mean that she does not get drawn into...

Speaker 3 the back and forth with Trump as much.

Speaker 3 And I wonder if that's to her benefit because her strategy, which is, I think, a little different than Biden's, is not just to make it about Trump the whole time, but to actually talk about what she's for, who she is, what her plans are.

Speaker 5 I think she has to, no matter whether the mics are muted or unmuted, she has to not get drawn into that. That should be part of the strategic goal.

Speaker 5 But what you want ultimately, you're right, the debate is about her. She wants to make it about her.
She wants to share her story, her visions, et cetera.

Speaker 5 But you also want to give Trump an opportunity. You want to show the American people in full transparency what an erratic lunatic with cognitive decline Donald Trump is.

Speaker 5 And allowing this microphone to be open would help.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I feel like he's going to do a pretty good job of that himself.

Speaker 5 Well, that's that's yeah, I think we kind of go back and forth. Like, we, we, we, we say a lot, right, that like

Speaker 5 people understand and know who Trump is. The undecided voters really want to make sure that they feel like they can get behind Kamala Harris.

Speaker 5 And so, the debate is an opportunity for her to kind of put Trump aside and kind of have a conversation with the American people.

Speaker 5 I think she's adept enough to do that, whether or not Trump's muted or not. I think the fact, I just

Speaker 5 should the ex-president's mic be muted because he's such a chaotic maniac

Speaker 5 that he's self-destructive and these are two adults and one of them cannot obey even the basic of rules or human forms of discipline? Like, what a sad fucking state of affairs this is.

Speaker 5 What are the politics of the microphones?

Speaker 5 We have to talk about it, but it's fucking insane. It just is.

Speaker 4 I mean, I think that this goes to, I mean, I've been thinking about this a lot about how like the media and I include like a lot of institutions have unintentionally and intentionally sain-washed Trump.

Speaker 4 Like, how many times have you, like, you read, like, oh, Trump said this, and you watch the video, and you're like, he's just talking about Hannibal Lecter.

Speaker 5 And, like, the economic club event he just did, which is, like, absolute gibberish. Yeah.

Speaker 3 An hour of gibberish.

Speaker 4 His answers on, like, somehow I believe tariffs are going to pay for childcare.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 But, like,

Speaker 3 maybe that's wrong.

Speaker 4 It genuinely is the kind of thing that if somebody said that in court, you'd be like, okay.

Speaker 3 So we're going to, you're going to, no.

Speaker 4 No. So I think like there is a degree to which like if like I don't think the Harris campaign wants to accidentally sainwash Donald Trump.

Speaker 5 I mean every Trump speech was never great.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 5 They were never particularly, there was not like a real logical threat to them. But in this campaign, every one of them is like Adam Sandler and Billy Madison.

Speaker 3 I do think if he goes off like that, when he goes off like that, and rambles like he did in that economic speech, she should have like a line or two in her pocket that's just like,

Speaker 3 well,

Speaker 3 I have no idea what he meant by that or what he said, but anyway.

Speaker 4 I want to know: does he think that seeking asylum and being in an insane asylum are the same thing?

Speaker 3 It's a good question. I have to know.

Speaker 3 Pretty sure sure he is.

Speaker 3 It seems like yes that he thinks he is.

Speaker 4 I'm pretty sure he does. Also, did he watch NBC's Hannibal? In which case, I have additional questions.

Speaker 3 Tommy, New York Times reports that Trump's team has, quote, urged him to be happy Trump in the debate

Speaker 3 rather than mean bully Trump while pressing a policy-based case against Ms. Harris.
Putting aside the likelihood of Trump embracing his happy side,

Speaker 3 how do you think Kamala should prepare for that possibility? And how should she approach the debate if he is mean bully Trump?

Speaker 5 Yeah, I think the line was happy warrior. And I did laugh out loud when I read that.
Not because it was bad reporting or because it's bad advice, frankly.

Speaker 5 I mean, basically, what that advisor is telling the New York Times is, we hope he doesn't look like an asshole.

Speaker 5 But I think if you're a staffer, you have to advise your candidate in a way that fits their capacities.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 5 Trump can be very funny, but it's because he's being the meanest version of a presidential candidate that you've ever seen in your life.

Speaker 5 He's talking about Marco Rubio's genitalia or Ted Cruz's wife or whatever. So there's that part.
The contrast on policy, I think, it's also good advice. Trump staff knows that he hates Kamala Harris.

Speaker 5 He says constantly he doesn't think she's smart. He doesn't respect her.

Speaker 3 But she's pretty.

Speaker 5 But he's angry that he's running against her, right? And they do do not want the like misogynistic, racist things he says in private to come out in public.

Speaker 5 So they want him to focus on immigration, inflation, the economy, and make a policy-based argument. We'll see if he can do that.
I think for Kamala, she is basically.

Speaker 3 We'll see.

Speaker 5 I know. Yeah, exactly.
Time will tell. It's like, we'll see if my dog can do string theory.

Speaker 3 Can Bundit do that?

Speaker 5 I think she's got, I think she has three goals. One is she has to talk about her economic vision for the country.

Speaker 5 Every poll, every focus group will tell you that people want more information about what she'll do for them and for their financial situation. She has to lay that out.

Speaker 5 But two, she has to undercut Trump's record on the economy because voters view the Trump term through rose-colored glasses. They think of 2018, not 2020.

Speaker 5 And I think she needs to remind them that his only legislative accomplishment was passing the biggest tax cut, multi-trillion dollar tax cut for billionaires and corporations, and that he's promised a bunch of rich donors that if they cut him big checks, he'll do it again.

Speaker 5 And then three, to answer your question, like she has to try to get under his skin and annoy him and piss him off and bring out like the feral Trump, Trump the Twitter feed, the brooding, red-faced, probably COVID film.

Speaker 4 I think being a biracial woman.

Speaker 4 I think she'll be good to go.

Speaker 5 But, you know, he was disciplined against Joe Biden. And I think that is kind of the question is if he can do it again.

Speaker 3 Yeah,

Speaker 3 I agree that they will. I mean, and Kamala's team has been saying this, that they want her to get under his skin.
I think that it is, it's much easier to do that than you'd think.

Speaker 3 Like, I don't think she needs a bunch of zingers.

Speaker 3 I know that the New York Times interviewed Hillary Clinton, and she was talking about how, you know, when she said, you know, you're Putin's puppet, and then, of course, Trump went back and like, I'm not the puppet, you're the puppet.

Speaker 3 And then went back, like, puppet. I don't.

Speaker 3 I don't actually think you need that. I think if you just talk about like the difference in policy, it will freak him out.

Speaker 3 Like if she says,

Speaker 3 I want to protect abortion access and he will make states monitor women's pregnancies, like he will flip out.

Speaker 5 The lesson of the great success of Kamala Harris's campaign over the last seven weeks is that the best way to get Nock Trump off his game is not to insult him. It's to be...

Speaker 5 ignore to ignore his insults.

Speaker 3 Yes. Right.

Speaker 5 It's like when he does that and she just pivots and she just like a a little dirt off the shoulders and doesn't care. That drives him bananas, right?

Speaker 5 If you were like in an insult fest with Donald Trump, you're playing his game.

Speaker 3 Well, it's what Jane said. I mean, she's not going to say, what the fuck is this guy doing?

Speaker 3 But that vibe,

Speaker 3 I think that is the tone. Yeah.

Speaker 4 No, I think that

Speaker 4 if there are any women here who have ever been told some bullshit by a man in their late 70s, like,

Speaker 3 you know, very specific.

Speaker 4 It's happened. You know, a man in his late 70s who can't, who stands like this.

Speaker 4 Like, I don't know. It just seems like just like noting that I'm a person who is willing to act on behalf of everyday Americans, even ones who don't like me, and this is a maniac.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 4 go from there.

Speaker 3 Love it.

Speaker 3 The Trump team and Trump has been trying out a whole bunch of different attacks on Kamala.

Speaker 3 They're now telling reporters that their strategy in the debate is to force Kamala to own her partnership with Biden and take responsibility for the parts of his presidency that voters are unhappiest about.

Speaker 3 How do you think she should handle that?

Speaker 5 Yeah, first of all, I think Donald Trump can't force Kamala Harris to do anything in the debate. I think she's too smart for that.
I think the most important

Speaker 5 thing she can do in this debate is just sort of put him aside.

Speaker 5 The less she's addressing him, the more she's talking to the moderators, the more she's talking to the cameras, the more he's like a non-entity to her, I think the better.

Speaker 5 You know, the Dana Bash interview, I think, was instructive because you don't have to make Kamala Harris own her role in the Biden administration.

Speaker 5 She's well aware that she's associated with the Biden administration. She's owning that role and she's showing loyalty and saying she's proud of her of the work they've gotten done.

Speaker 5 And I'm sure she'll say some version of how much work there is left to be done.

Speaker 5 And then I think turn to the contrast between what Donald Trump would do going forward and what she would do going forward.

Speaker 7 I do think there's also space, though.

Speaker 5 This may be like guilting the lily and maybe like two cute by half. I don't know, shouldn't have used both expressions.

Speaker 3 It was maybe guilt and the lily.

Speaker 5 It was guilting the lily.

Speaker 5 I do think there's something that people instinctively get about Trump that like, hey man, I know you like complaining from the sidelines.

Speaker 5 It's very easy from the sidelines to say how much better you'd be at everything and how everything was perfect when you're president. But we remember what it was like when you were president.

Speaker 5 We remember how you said you'd fix everything, but yet problems remained.

Speaker 5 You bring chaos with you, you bring failure with you, you bring blame and you bring antagonism, and you bring noise and you bring bullshit. The American people are very sick of that.

Speaker 5 And so we can choose between a future in which we're gonna do these hard things and it won't be easy and we won't get it all right and we won't always succeed.

Speaker 5 Or we can go back to the bullshit and the lying and the chaos and the camplaining and the antagonism and the division. And I think like making that the choice and the contrast about the future

Speaker 5 is the right thing to do.

Speaker 5 I think

Speaker 4 I have two thoughts on this because I think first and foremost,

Speaker 4 it's been really interesting for Donald Trump to pretend he wasn't president.

Speaker 4 I mean, believe me, if I could just black out 2016 to 2020, I would.

Speaker 4 But like, the degree, like, bringing in RFK and talking about, like, oh, we're going to make America healthy again. I'm like.

Speaker 3 I know.

Speaker 5 to the guy who fed every national championship team McDonald's. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.

Speaker 4 But more importantly, this is someone who is like, chemicals and water sounds awesome. Love it.

Speaker 4 Like, we know who this person is, and the degree to which he needs to obfuscate his own presidency is baffling to me. I will also say that, like,

Speaker 4 Afghanistan is going to come up. Donald Trump talked a lot about getting troops out of Afghanistan.
Do you remember the like Donald the Dove thing in 2016?

Speaker 3 Remember that?

Speaker 4 I do. And like the degree to which the same people who were like, you know, it's America first, we got to get out of Afghanistan, Joe Biden fucking did it.

Speaker 4 Joe Biden said like, okay, we got to do this. This is the end of this.
And like, obviously, I wish it had gone differently, but.

Speaker 4 It is over and it's time for it to end. And like, you know, for people who...

Speaker 5 Even more specifically on that, Donald Trump negotiated the deal with the Taliban to get us out of the way. 9-11.

Speaker 5 And Donald Trump has always said that.

Speaker 4 Fight the Taliban to Camp David on 9-11.

Speaker 5 Yes. And actually, that we would have withdrawn from Afghanistan earlier under the Trump timeframe.
Joe Biden extended it. Now, again, I'm with you.
Like, it didn't end well.

Speaker 5 We shouldn't pretend it was. It wasn't like the most consequential airlift in history.
Like, disastrous things happened on that day. Service members lost their lives.

Speaker 5 A lot of people who helped out the United States were left behind. But the fact that Trump whitewashed his own record on Afghanistan makes me crazy.

Speaker 4 No, and

Speaker 4 it's really frustrating to see Trump promise something to people and people be like, yes, we want that. And then someone does it.
And people being, we don't like how it happened.

Speaker 4 I don't like how it happened either, but someone fucking did it. And I think that there's something really to be said about how we cannot, as voters, as people, as

Speaker 4 Kamala Harrison debate, you can't let Trump have it both ways. You can't let him be the best president and also a bystander.
It's not fair, and it's not fair to us as voters. Yeah.

Speaker 3 That is his shtick. All right.
Real quick around the horn.

Speaker 3 You're talking to Kamala Harris right before she goes out on stage. What is the one thing you want her to leave voters with and do in this debate? If you have one thing to say, Dan.

Speaker 5 It is that voters want to hear.

Speaker 5 Voters want to hear Kamala Harris talk about Kamal Harris more than they want to hear Kamal Harris talk about Trump.

Speaker 5 What they are thirsting for is information about her, her story, her visions, and the kind of president she would be.

Speaker 5 We're not just one piece of bad information away from a bunch of swing voters leaving Trump.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And you said this. I think it's just, he cares about himself.
I am fighting for the whole country. All he cares about is himself.
That's it. And I'm for everyone.

Speaker 3 Okay, we're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, you're going to hear from Chris Love of Arizona for Abortion Access.

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Speaker 9 What is the secret to making great toast?

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We use food to learn about culture, history, and science.

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Speaker 3 As you know, sometimes the choices in politics can be pretty stark here in Arizona.

Speaker 3 You have the folks who love the 1864 abortion ban, and then you have the folks working night and day to enshrine abortion rights in your Constitution through Pop Prop 139.

Speaker 3 Joining us now is Chris Love, spokesperson for Arizona for Abortion Access. Welcome, Chris.

Speaker 3 Hey, Chris. Hey, how are you?

Speaker 8 Well, I was nervous, but

Speaker 8 what a warm welcome.

Speaker 3 Good evening, Arizona.

Speaker 8 So I'm thrilled to speak to you guys tonight, right? First, I want to thank the relentless and really damn funny and smart advocates of Pod Save

Speaker 8 for coming to Phoenix.

Speaker 8 And for giving me a few minutes to tell you the story of Proposition 139, the Arizona Abortion Access Act.

Speaker 8 So let me take you back a couple of years.

Speaker 8 In 2022, when Trump Supreme Court threw away 50 years of legal precedent to destroy Roe versus Wade, I know Boo Hiss.

Speaker 8 They created chaos all over the country and definitely here in the state of Arizona.

Speaker 8 It caused doctors and nurses to fear that they might lose their licenses and their freedom because the laws that we had still on the books included criminal penalties for anyone performing or assisting with an abortion.

Speaker 8 I know, boo, keep.

Speaker 8 And that's on top of fearing for the health and safety of pregnant patients in Arizona who could no longer be legally treated. What happened in Arizona in 2022 was dangerous and unjust.

Speaker 8 And it's why reproductive rights, health care, and voting rights organizations got together to create what is now Proposition 139, the Arizona Abortion Access Act.

Speaker 8 So, Prop 139 is a constitutional amendment that will be on our ballot this fall. And we all must vote yes on Prop 139.

Speaker 8 It gives freedom back to patients and their doctors to make personal medical decisions that are right for them. And it gets politicians out of the way.

Speaker 8 But we still need your help to press Prop 139, right?

Speaker 8 So please go to our website, Arizona4abortionAccess.org, and donate because it's expensive.

Speaker 8 Sign up to volunteer and tell everyone who listen why we all need to vote yes.

Speaker 8 It's going to be a long ballot, folks. Four pages this year.

Speaker 8 Yeah, exactly. And Prop 139 is going to be on the back at the bottom, right?

Speaker 8 So we need your help to get the word out.

Speaker 8 Just a little more.

Speaker 8 This is our chance to make history again and protect right to abortion access here in Arizona, free from government interference.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 8 But again, I need every single person in this auditorium tonight to do what you can and stand with us every day from now until November 5th.

Speaker 8 We cannot do this without you.

Speaker 8 I'm so grateful to be in this fight with our Pod Save Phoenix folks today

Speaker 4 and with all of you.

Speaker 8 Thank you so much and we'll see you at our victory party on November 5th.

Speaker 3 Good up for Chris Love.

Speaker 3 All right, let's get back to the news.

Speaker 3 I'm sure a lot of you were at the Arizona Biltmore on Thursday

Speaker 3 to catch the charismatic powerhouse of the 2024 cycle, Ohio Senator J.D. Vance.

Speaker 5 You're just mad because he's so hot.

Speaker 3 So at one point, Vance was asked about the recent news that John McCain's son Jimmy, a veteran like his father, has decided to vote for Kamala Harris.

Speaker 3 Here's what he said.

Speaker 13 I do not believe for a second that if John McCain were alive today and he sees what's going on at the American southern border, that he would support Kamala Harris and all the destruction that she's wrought.

Speaker 13 Who cares what somebody's family thinks about a presidential race? I care about what these people care about the presidential race. I really couldn't.

Speaker 13 The media is turning into a story what John McCain's family says about Donald Trump.

Speaker 3 I'm not sure I'd be so dismissive of a family that's revered in a must-win state that went blue in 2020, but then again, I don't have J.D. Vance's political acumen.

Speaker 3 So,

Speaker 3 but I bring this up because the McCain brand of conservatism was once the dominant strain of politics here in Arizona not very long ago.

Speaker 3 Now we got Carrie Lake and Joe Arpaio.

Speaker 3 You guys don't like them. Jane, you've been doing a lot of reporting on this, and what's changed.
What did you learn?

Speaker 4 So first and foremost, let me just say again, he went to Ohio State.

Speaker 3 Yeah, there you go.

Speaker 3 There you go.

Speaker 4 That's what happens.

Speaker 4 But so I had the opportunity to speak with amazing Arizona state legislator Lorena Austin and

Speaker 4 they told me about how the Republicans that they experience on a daily basis are so extreme that when they talk to other people about them, people don't believe them.

Speaker 4 You know, you talk about somebody like Wendy Rogers,

Speaker 4 who has not yet met a Nazi she's not into.

Speaker 4 Wendy Rogers, who said that, you know, we got it right in 1864. And let me just say, nothing, nothing good happened in 1864.

Speaker 4 We had this really great conversation talking about how Arizona is changing, but the Republican Party here has been locked in this purity spiral of election denialism and election denialism continued.

Speaker 4 And we saw this in 2020. We saw it with Carrie Lake deciding that she's actually governor, which,

Speaker 4 you know,

Speaker 4 she isn't.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 4 what we've seen again and again, and you guys know this, you know that Arizonans are changing. Arizonans are diverse.
Arizonans are thoughtful. Arizonans don't want any of this shit.

Speaker 4 And so.

Speaker 4 But to speak specifically about the Republican Party, I talked with amazing journalist Jen Fafield from Vote Beat, awesome writer.

Speaker 4 And she was talking about how, like, yeah, you know, there's always been this swath of the Arizona GOP that has adhered to extremism.

Speaker 4 I mean, Joe Arpeo, for example, and like, you know, the Tea Party, you can go back 20, 25 years or something like that. But it really has been that since

Speaker 4 Chemtrail Kelly, and

Speaker 4 we all remember our favorite person, Kelly Ward.

Speaker 4 So I think that there really has been this ongoing takeover of the Republican Party by extremists who, when they lose, they decide, no, no, no, I didn't lose. It was stolen.

Speaker 4 And then they double down and double down through primary after primary. And so I think that it's really important.
I've got a couple of notes here because it's not just the 1864 ban.

Speaker 4 It's also Prop 314.

Speaker 4 It's also

Speaker 4 Prop 137, which would be a lifetime appointment for judges, which.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah, immediately. No, no.

Speaker 4 We've seen how that goes.

Speaker 4 So there are so many important issues to focus on in this election, especially because the Arizona legislature, if we get it to 50-50, that's Democratic trifecta in in this state.

Speaker 4 And I think that that's something that people like Lorena, people like Chris, people are fighting for across this state.

Speaker 4 And like, while Carrie Lake can go watch Texas A ⁇ M lose, let's go see her lose here.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 So, Tommy, you know, as Jane was saying, it's not just in Arizona, it's like all over the country.

Speaker 3 Losing is cool. Right.
Everybody's into it. One example of a very MAGA Republican Party nominating a very MAGA candidate is in North Carolina.

Speaker 3 They have their nominee for governor is this cuckoo bananas guy, Mark Robinson.

Speaker 3 He's called gay people filth, Michelle Obama a man,

Speaker 3 Beyonce satanic,

Speaker 3 Muslims invaders, women unfit to lead, and mass shootings, karma for abortions. that's

Speaker 3 but there was a story about him this week that was even crazier

Speaker 3 a former employee of a video porn shop in Greensboro

Speaker 3 he said that about 20 years ago Mark Robinson he didn't just frequent the the the store once in a while five nights a week

Speaker 3 Five nights a week he was a regular in the the porn preview booths in the porn shop very respectful customer, he said. Don't worry.

Speaker 3 I know you've been following the story closely.

Speaker 3 Yeah. First of all, I don't like how you phrase that.

Speaker 3 Second of all, I'm happy to tell you about it because I have.

Speaker 3 That's what I thought.

Speaker 5 Yeah, Mark Robinson, the current lieutenant governor of North Carolina, Republican nominee to be governor. I mean, he became famous.

Speaker 5 He became well known in Republican circles because right after the Parkland shooting, he went to I think a city hall or town hall meeting and he gave this you know very high energy uh

Speaker 5 speech about how gun control was wrong and then he later said a bunch of horrible things about the parkland students um he called them spoiled little bastards uh and media prostitutes um which is a fucked up thing to say about high school kids in any context but you know these were kids who had just survived the mass shooting that killed 17 people in their own high school so it's you know i I think that that kind of tells you everything you need to know about Mark Robinson.

Speaker 5 Unfortunately, for the Republicans in North Carolina, Mark Robinson told us much, much more about himself on Facebook over and over and over again. He was also a Holocaust denier.

Speaker 5 He used to quote Hitler all the time.

Speaker 4 He said that

Speaker 4 Black Panther was Jews trying to take money from black people.

Speaker 5 I think Sheck, I think Shekles, Shekels.

Speaker 3 Shekels. He did say Shekels.
He did say Shekels.

Speaker 3 It's hard to remember all the Mark Robinson. It really is.

Speaker 5 He said that he wanted to go back to a time before women could vote. That was another one of his things.

Speaker 5 And so, yeah, I mean, of course, what that led to was Republicans loving him and him winning the Republican nomination. And I think Donald Trump told him that he was Martin Luther King on steroids.

Speaker 5 I believe that's an exact quote.

Speaker 4 So, yeah, so it's. Didn't that man suffer enough?

Speaker 5 So this gets back to the story John was mentioning.

Speaker 5 There's a great

Speaker 5 outlet in North Carolina. I think it's called The Assembly.
It's a local North Carolina outlet. They interviewed, big assembly fans in the back there.

Speaker 3 Right on.

Speaker 5 Interviewed some folks who worked, I guess, at the front desk at some of these 24-hour porn stores. They said that Mark Robinson would come in all the time.

Speaker 5 The deal was you could buy a video for a lot of money or preview a video for less money. So he did that.

Speaker 5 And it gets worse. Mark Robinson worked at a pizza shop.
So we'd bring in a pizza and bring it to the booth and eat the pizza in the booth where you preview the video.

Speaker 5 So far, all I'm hearing is kink shaming.

Speaker 3 Listen, I don't know.

Speaker 5 Bring a black light to that restaurant.

Speaker 3 They're not trying to yump his yum.

Speaker 5 And so, none of you have had pizza after a good night.

Speaker 3 And so. Two great things that go great together.

Speaker 3 What's happening with the leftovers there?

Speaker 5 Long, one of the topics on that pizza.

Speaker 3 Long, discuss.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 3 We were all thinking it.

Speaker 5 Long, disgusting story short.

Speaker 5 I read that and I was like, this is very funny. But also, it's like the least bad thing I've ever heard about Mark Robinson.

Speaker 3 Like, I'm...

Speaker 5 Go jerk off all you want. I don't care.
Just like, don't do all the other stuff.

Speaker 5 But what confused me was like, hey, man, like, get a VCR, right? Do this,

Speaker 5 do this in the comfort of your own home.

Speaker 5 And so I tweeted that, and I was very rapidly informed about how naive I am about what actually goes on in these booths in the back of the store with the pizza and the whatever else.

Speaker 5 So, projection is what they were trying to say. So, yeah,

Speaker 5 we got to beat that guy. Josh Stein.

Speaker 3 Josh Stein.

Speaker 5 Was beat him the wrong word?

Speaker 3 Defeat him. Hang on.

Speaker 4 I want to talk about this for a second because we've seen...

Speaker 3 Sounds pretty wacky.

Speaker 5 We've got to spank him at the polls. We've got to stop this jerk off.

Speaker 4 I want to get serious here for a second because we've seen how Republicans, they know that abortion is a losing issue for them, which everyone in America could have been like, yeah,

Speaker 3 we know.

Speaker 4 And so there was a recent ad that Mark Robinson dragged his wife into to talk about an abortion she had about 20 years ago.

Speaker 4 And this is the same person who said that abortion happens because women can't keep their skirts down.

Speaker 4 And I just want to say again, like, you can see it happening across the board. You see it happening in Florida.

Speaker 4 You see it happening in every state in which abortion is on the ballot, in which Republicans who had

Speaker 4 Long said that abortion should be banned, that women who have abortions are evil, that women who have abortions are murderers. After Dobbs, they were like, actually,

Speaker 4 what we meant was we want French abortion law, and it's, you know, it's not really a big deal anymore.

Speaker 1 We don't really care.

Speaker 4 And like, you can see that with Mark Robinson dragging his wife into this.

Speaker 4 Again, this is a person who basically accused anyone who has used reproductive services of being a whore.

Speaker 4 And then he's like, well, actually, I really support our current laws. And I totally understand this is a very complex issue.
And so, one, Mark Robinson's full of shit.

Speaker 4 And two,

Speaker 4 I think that it's been interesting to me again and again to see how Republicans try to obfuscate their own extremism and sainwash themselves to say, like, no, no, no, what I meant was I want French abortion law.

Speaker 4 No, no, no, what I want is that I think abortion is bad for women. Like, don't let people lie to you to your face.
And I see that happen with Mark Robinson on this issue.

Speaker 4 You see it happening in states, you know, you saw people in Kansas and Kentucky, and you're seeing it in Missouri. You're seeing it here.
You're seeing people saying,

Speaker 4 stop fucking with me.

Speaker 3 Stop it. We're done with it.
Go back to your little booth in the store with your pizza. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Figure it out. That's your

Speaker 3 pizza. You work up quite an appetite.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 What you do with your pizza is your business.

Speaker 5 It's a dipping sauce.

Speaker 3 That's a

Speaker 3 trying to figure out a segue

Speaker 3 to the Cheney endorsements.

Speaker 5 So, speaking of shooting in the face.

Speaker 3 I still got it.

Speaker 5 I still got it.

Speaker 5 John, you had a question?

Speaker 3 That's the good side of the party.

Speaker 3 This week, friend of the pod, Liz Cheney

Speaker 3 and her father,

Speaker 3 poster child for compassionate conservatism, Dick Cheney,

Speaker 3 both said they're voting for Kamala Harris.

Speaker 4 I have to ask,

Speaker 4 I have to know,

Speaker 4 which of you thought in like 2002 that you'd be like, woo, Dick Cheney?

Speaker 3 Love it, how do you feel that you are voting for the same candidate as Dick Cheney?

Speaker 3 And the more serious question, how many more of these old guard Republicans that are, you know, sort of shrinking in number at this point, do you think the Harris campaign should go after?

Speaker 3 Do you think these are valuable endorsements in any way? What do you think?

Speaker 5 Well, first of all, I mean, Dick Cheney and I voted the same way before. We voted the same way in 2008.

Speaker 3 I'm just kidding.

Speaker 3 Just kidding. Just kidding.

Speaker 3 So,

Speaker 3 flip it.

Speaker 3 I was a puma.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 we should be very, like...

Speaker 5 Like we should fully embrace that Dick Cheney. Like there's a little bit I think like online of people being like Dick Cheney's bad.
Like it feels weird. No, no.

Speaker 5 We should be unabashedly embracing the fact that Dick Cheney and Liz Cheney are endorsing Kamala Harris. The reason we should.

Speaker 5 Because it,

Speaker 5 because we did not compromise to get that endorsement.

Speaker 5 And when people, look, I wish it weren't as hard. for leading Republicans to admit the truth and do the right thing.
But clearly it is because so few of them have done it.

Speaker 5 And we can decide whether or not these people were weaker and shittier and more craven than we could have possibly imagined, or if this does require some moral courage. It's probably a mix of both.

Speaker 5 But when someone does something hard that you've asked them to do, you should be glad that they did it.

Speaker 5 We forget that there was this moment when there were some Republicans who were anti-Trump, but also anti-Democrat.

Speaker 5 They were like, well, if Democrats really believed what they said about the threat of Trump, they'd compromise all their values to get Republicans to come vote.

Speaker 5 They'd compromise on choice. They'd compromise on the economy.
They'd compromise on healthcare, whatever it may be. And we haven't done that, right? We've been on it.

Speaker 5 We've shifted to the left, like on economic policy. Like we have, we have, we're fighting for abortion access all across the country.

Speaker 5 And so when Dick Cheney embraces that, that's not something that reflects poorly on us, just reflects actually poorly on all the Republicans that are refusing to do it.

Speaker 5 So I think like as much as we can be telling a story about those kinds of Republicans willing to come out and say, I'm not just, I'm not writing in Abraham fucking Lincoln.

Speaker 5 Because I'm not a child. I understand that there's two people on that ballot.
I'm either for Trump or I'm for Kamala Harris. I'm either going to participate or I'm not.
I think the better.

Speaker 5 And like, yes, like, you know, I saw there was a story today about like no one expects George W. Bush to come out of his studio

Speaker 5 to help the country. Not the first time.
We've been disappointed by George W. Bush.
Won't be the last.

Speaker 3 His office put out a statement saying he's not endorsing. Yeah.
So I'm like, okay, well, Dick fucking Cheney did it. Yeah.
He put out a statement. What's the point of having a profile, man?

Speaker 3 Do something with it. What are you waiting for? Yeah.

Speaker 4 Again,

Speaker 4 we are genuinely waiting for George W. Bush.

Speaker 3 No, you know, nobody's waiting, but like, he's got a choice. Like, you're going to vote or you're not.
So just

Speaker 5 to your point before, though, like, I do think it has been really just...

Speaker 5 interesting and confusing if you look at like Bush Republicans from the early 2000s who have turned out to have like backbone and integrity and who have been craven little fucking weasels.

Speaker 5 And like, honestly, it's surprising in both directions.

Speaker 4 No, and it was wild. If you watched the Republican National Convention, you'd believe that the Republican Party began in 2016.
They're like, yeah, before then, it was just like,

Speaker 4 I don't know, you know, Ronald Reagan, who he? Like, it just, it's been, it's been wild, the ahistorization of the Republican Party, where it's just like, it's Trump. It's all Trump.

Speaker 4 Everybody's Trump. Trump, Trump, Trump.
And like, it's, I mean, as someone who was and remains deeply opposed to literally everything Dick Cheney did,

Speaker 4 sometimes a broken clock is right.

Speaker 3 Like, it'll happen sometimes. Dick Cheney, welcome to the resistance.

Speaker 3 Dan, you and I talked on Friday's pod about how unlikely it is that the Republican Party, even if Trump loses, goes back to the days of Cheney, McCain, whatever.

Speaker 4 They still sucked, right?

Speaker 3 right quick.

Speaker 3 But, you know, Benji Sarland and Semaphore had a good piece about how

Speaker 3 the MAGA candidates who have refashioned themselves in Donald Trump's image don't seem to be doing well electorally, right? And so, which is great.

Speaker 3 We applaud that.

Speaker 3 And like, why do you think that is? And what do you think that means for like Democrats facing Republican candidates who aren't as MAGA as a Kerry Lake or a Donald Trump.

Speaker 5 So I think there are ways to look about this. First is it is important for Democrats who truly understand Donald Trump's appeal because he's in his third national election.

Speaker 5 He is trending towards, as we sit here again, getting another 47% of Americans to vote for him for president.

Speaker 5 And part of that, what's interesting is that Donald Trump is not a popular person, but the Republican Party is much less popular than Donald Trump.

Speaker 5 He, for a lot of voters, represents an outsider, right? It's important to understand just how big a celebrity Donald Trump is for a lot of Americans.

Speaker 5 Like, someone sent me a Pizza Hut ad from the early 2000s of Donald Trump. He was the Pizza Hut spokesperson eating Pizza Hut on Trump Force One as if this avatar of wealth in America.

Speaker 4 He was in an episode of Sex in a City.

Speaker 5 Sex in a City was in Home Alone 2.

Speaker 3 Was he previewing a movie?

Speaker 5 He was in.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 because of his celebrity, he is able to allude to the things that have failed Republicans in most elections.

Speaker 5 One, because he is this celebrity, millionaire, thrice-married cad from New York, he doesn't come across as the same sort of

Speaker 5 abortion-hating, homophobic Republican, even though all of his policies reflect that to most people.

Speaker 5 And so there is this view among a lot of voters that in the Rorschach test that he is personally more socially liberal than Republicans.

Speaker 5 Then also because he has run as this nationalist candidate, he also doesn't seem like the social social security cutting, tax cut, giving away Republicans like Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan.

Speaker 5 And so he's eluding both those things.

Speaker 5 So when you take another, like the sort of MAGA candidates like Kerry Lake, who lost in 2022, what they are is they're just worse versions of the Republicans that people already hate.

Speaker 5 And so part of that, you can look at that and say, well, yes, if we are able to defeat Donald Trump, as I sure hope we do, and he does not run for president again, now the Republicans have

Speaker 5 adopted a philosophy with a bunch of people who do not have the charisma or the ability to carry that movement forward.

Speaker 5 Like, honestly, the two people, if you would ask this two years ago, who are the two people who would be the potential leaders of the MAGA movement if Donald Trump were to go away, and that person was not Donald Trump Jr., it would be Rhonda Sandis and J.D.

Speaker 5 Vance. Yeah.
These people cannot even order fucking donuts like a human, okay?

Speaker 3 But.

Speaker 5 Even if they do not have Donald Trump's like political appeal, and that makes me want to throw up my mouth to say that, but even if they don't have that, what Donald Trump has created is something incredibly dangerous in the radicalization of a generation of Republicans that goes forward and means that

Speaker 5 in a polarized country, any Republican can win in a certain year if the conditions are right. So we are, yes, we can defeat Donald Trump here.
We have to defeat Donald Trump.

Speaker 5 We have to defeat Kerry Lake, but the seeds of what created Donald Trump and Kerry Lake is going to exist going forward, and that's something we have to take on.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, Mark Robinson is still in the hunt.

Speaker 5 He's the current lieutenant governor.

Speaker 3 Yep.

Speaker 4 I think I mean one thing that I think is always interesting is we were told over and over in 2016 and 2017 that Trumpism was about populism, about economic protectionism.

Speaker 4 And it's been interesting to see how many Trumpist candidates were like, I hear that I'm just going to be racist.

Speaker 4 Like Corey Stewart in Virginia, who's from Minnesota, went to St. Olaf College and then was like, the people who want to take take down Confederate memorials are the Taliban.

Speaker 4 Like, you saw that again, Roy Moore in Alabama, like, Carrie Lay. You see this again and again and again about how Trumpism, there is no such thing as Trumpism.

Speaker 4 There are people, like, the populist project, as you're seeing now, as Tucker Carlson decides that Nazism is a fun new thing we're trying.

Speaker 4 Like, it's been interesting again to see, like, there is no such thing, the Trumpist ideology does not exist because it can't exist beyond him He has no coattails.

Speaker 4 There's no one who's like oh, I'm gonna you know try and do this thing. It's just People hating people.

Speaker 4 It's Marco Rubio saying that I'm fine making Amazon workers piss in bottles so that they don't have to leave the clock as long as they don't sell books about trans people It's Josh Hawley being

Speaker 4 whatever that is

Speaker 4 like There are no coattails. There is no such thing as Trumpism.
There is only Trump and weirdo Trumpist drag queens.

Speaker 3 Either way, we got to beat them. So, votesaveamerica.com.

Speaker 3 Head there, sign up if you haven't. We're trying to get as many volunteers as we can for our organizer else goals.
We're trying to hit 75,000 people.

Speaker 3 So, go to votesaveamerica.com if you haven't signed up already. And when we come back, Dan talks to your next senator, Ruben Gallego.

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Speaker 5 Please welcome to the stage your congressman and the next senator from Arizona, Ruben Gallego.

Speaker 3 I think they like you.

Speaker 5 Okay, so you just heard us talk for the last 20 minutes or so about how politics in Arizona have changed over the years. You're a lifelong Arizonan.
You've run for office here.

Speaker 5 I want to get your take on how Arizona went from, the Arizona Republicans went from the party of John McCain to the party of Kerry Lake.

Speaker 7 How long do we have?

Speaker 5 As long as you need, sir.

Speaker 3 Look, you know,

Speaker 7 many of us actually know the McCain family, have known the McCain family, and I think one of the things that people don't understand, the reason why Democrats, Independents, and Republicans have respect for the McCain family, it's not the politics, it's the service, right?

Speaker 7 And the fact that

Speaker 7 Sergeant McCain and his family, we at the core always understood that they would always put country country first.

Speaker 7 And we saw that time and time again, even though many of us here were knocking doors, trying to make sure someone else got elected a lot of times.

Speaker 7 But at the core, we knew that that was still a good man, and that that family really was dedicated to Arizona and the United States.

Speaker 7 I think what happened many, many, many times, and this is prior even to Donald Trump, is that politicians moved from service to self-service. And Carrie Lake is a prime example of that.

Speaker 7 As soon as she saw that she can gain some power, as soon as she saw the ability to gain some fame, you know, and when she realized that she was a failed newscaster, the next thing she wanted to do was become a failed politician.

Speaker 7 And I'm ensure that's going to happen again.

Speaker 7 But this is why, if you ever see Carrie Lake's, you know, evolution in politics, it's all over the place because she will say anything.

Speaker 7 anything possible. She will lie.
She will confuse people. She'll try to confuse you.
She's gotten sued by fellow fellow Republicans. She admitted that she lied about the 2020 election.
Now she is

Speaker 7 lying about the 2020 election.

Speaker 7 But that's a very dangerous politician. Because as you said,

Speaker 7 this is a 50-50 state. So on any given roll of the dice, they can win.
And that's very consequential.

Speaker 5 I have been fascinated by your race because for many reasons. One, obviously, what's happening in Arizona is going to control the Senate, control the White House, so many important things.

Speaker 5 But it's also really ground zero for, I think, the three issues that are defining the 2024 election across the country, abortion, immigration, and the big lie.

Speaker 5 And so I wanted to start with abortion, right? Where you have had this 1864 law, you have Prop 139 now on the ballot, and you have an opponent who is

Speaker 5 in a position that I can't truly understand.

Speaker 5 She has been for the law, against the law, but I want to just ask you how Prop 139 and sort of the emergence of abortion has changed your race, and if you could possibly tell me what Carrie Lake's position on abortion actually is.

Speaker 7 Well, Prop 139 is important because we need to protect women's rights to control their body, without a doubt.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 leaving this right to the Arizona legislature, and you've met them.

Speaker 7 Well, you met the good ones,

Speaker 7 but it's scary, right? And so the work that Chris Love and the Prop 139 Committee is doing

Speaker 7 heroic work for Arizona.

Speaker 7 How has this changed? I will say this. Arizona actually has always been a fairly pro-choice state, Democrats and Republicans.

Speaker 7 You know, the Goldwater family was involved in the first starting of Planned Parenthood here in Arizona.

Speaker 7 It's not uncommon, if you go to a Planned Parenthood luncheon here, you will see Republican women there, and

Speaker 7 a lot of them.

Speaker 7 I think what this has done, though, is now this conversation has been pushed forward into other areas.

Speaker 7 For the first time in, you know, since I can remember, I hear Latino men talking about abortion rights.

Speaker 7 I hear them talking about concern that the health of their wives and their family and their daughters is now at risk because of these extreme politicians that took away their families' ability to make choices for themselves.

Speaker 7 I hear, you know,

Speaker 7 you know, your kind of country club Republican male now talking about how extreme this is. So this has really kind of crossed these barriers that just didn't exist before.

Speaker 7 And I think now everyone feels more comfortable having these conversations. Versus before, a lot of people did not really talk about abortion rights outside the confines of politics.

Speaker 7 And now it's something that we hear and we talk about

Speaker 7 and almost, you know,

Speaker 7 people feel very comfortable talking about it in every aspect because now we realize that it is really, really at risk. Where is Carrie Lake on this?

Speaker 7 We don't know, but it's bad.

Speaker 7 and here's why

Speaker 7 in 2022 she said the 1864 law was a great law what was the 1864 law let's make sure we understand that is it said no exceptions for rape or incest to begin with number one great law is what she called it if you're a provider a doctor or nurse that decide to give an abortion to someone who, for example, didn't get raped or was a victim of incest,

Speaker 7 two years mandatory in jail. And she called that a great law.
So fast forward

Speaker 7 to 1884. Wow.
Sorry, I was in the Navajo Nation early in the morning. So

Speaker 7 to 2024, what did she start saying about this? Now it's a great law, but it's a shame that the Attorney General won't enforce it. The sheriffs of Arizona should enforce it.

Speaker 7 Have you guys met some of the sheriffs in Arizona?

Speaker 7 There's some good ones, but imagine back in the day Sheriff Joe Powell enforcing some of these extreme abortion bans.

Speaker 7 And on and on and on. So she will say anything.
She will do anything. The most important thing we have to understand is women are in danger if Carrie Lake is

Speaker 7 appointed, is elected.

Speaker 7 And what she says now, we cannot take to the bank.

Speaker 7 If she said only two years ago that this was a great law,

Speaker 7 if this is the same person person that said she was thrilled when Roe was overturned, how can we trust her with a woman's right to control her body? We can't.

Speaker 7 It's not a safe choice.

Speaker 5 And a point I would make for our listeners, everyone here in this room knows this, but for our listeners back home, we're going to hear this podcast tomorrow morning, is the difference between Ruben Gago and Carrie Lake in the Senate is the difference between likely giving President Conway Harris a majority that would enshrine Roe v.

Speaker 5 Wade as a law in this country. 100%.
Yes.

Speaker 5 So I want to talk a little about immigration, right? You're a congressman from a border state.

Speaker 5 I watch all the political ads. I've seen Carrie Lake's ads and the Super PAC ads about you.
They're largely about the border. They're attacking you on the border.

Speaker 5 Carrie Lake has even associated herself or

Speaker 5 sort of

Speaker 5 echoed some of the great replacement theory. And now she's talked about why people come to this country and immigrants in the Democratic Party.

Speaker 5 How is immigration coming up in your race? And what is it that Democrats around the country

Speaker 5 maybe don't get about the politics of immigration when you're from a place like Arizona?

Speaker 7 Well, I think actually the Democrats in Arizona actually get and understand border politics and immigration better than almost anyone else in the country. I would imagine.

Speaker 7 We've been having this discussion for years. And also, we're very realistic about the border and the border politics, the problems, but also some of the benefits, right?

Speaker 7 Right now, if we would get on the road, we'd get to the border probably in Ogalis in about two and a half hours, two hours and 15 minutes how I drive.

Speaker 7 But what does that mean is that we actually understand the border for what it is, right?

Speaker 7 Billions and billions of dollars worth of trade crosses that border every day.

Speaker 7 We have U.S. citizens that live on the Mexico side and come over.
We have Mexican nationals that come over and work here in the United States and shop.

Speaker 7 During COVID, One of the two places in the country where non-citizens were allowed to cross over was Yuma, Arizona. You know why?

Speaker 7 If we didn't have those Mexican nationals that have visas to cross over to pull our winter lettuce, the majority of the winter lettuce in America would have gone,

Speaker 7 would have rotted on the field.

Speaker 8 So

Speaker 7 we understand the border that this is something that we can work with, but we also need to improve it, right?

Speaker 7 We do need more border patrol. We need more customs agents.

Speaker 7 We need more technology to check the fentanyl, but we also need politicians that are willing to work for border solutions and not want a border problem, right? And that's what Carrie Lake represents.

Speaker 7 You know, we had a good border compromise bill that would have brought in more security at the border, more scanners, all the technology we wanted

Speaker 7 for us to be checking the vehicles that are coming through so we could actually stop the fentanyl at the border. And Carrie Lake said, do not vote for it.

Speaker 7 Not because there was a better bill coming up, not because if you held out

Speaker 7 it's going to be better, because she knew that if this was a solution, that it would end her campaign. She needs that border drama because she has nothing else to talk about.

Speaker 7 What's she going to talk about? Abortion? We already just talked about that, right? So this is why, you know, when we talk about it, if you see our commercials, we actually talk about solutions.

Speaker 7 We talk about what we've done, too.

Speaker 7 One of the first bills I jumped in on to help out when I first got to Congress was with Martha McSally, another veteran, to help veterans move from leaving the military and go become Border Patrol.

Speaker 7 Just a couple weeks ago, I joined in with a Republican, Dan Crenshaw, who has a really good bill to help government officials, law enforcement, be able to transfer over their clearances so that way it doesn't take as long with bureaucracy.

Speaker 7 So these are the things that we consistently point out.

Speaker 7 And I think that's the difference: you know, when Carrie Lake sees a border problem, she runs to the camera. I run to solutions.
And that's how we're going to win this.

Speaker 5 There's obviously, in dealing with

Speaker 5 immigration in the United States, there's two challenges, right? There is border security, and there's what do we do with the immigrants who are already here, right?

Speaker 5 And what do you do with the undocumented people who are already here? And how do you find the balance in that conversation between border security and a comprehensive immigration reform that is fair?

Speaker 7 I got to tell you, I think it's mostly the Washington, D.C. kind of punditry that doesn't understand that most

Speaker 7 your middle road Arizonan

Speaker 7 wants both border security and immigration reform.

Speaker 7 It's not an either or.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 this is not just talking to

Speaker 7 your country club Republican in Mesa or Scottsville. If you talk to Latinos, they'll say the same thing too.
It's that they want to see more security at the border. They want to see

Speaker 7 stricter

Speaker 7 asylum claims being adjudicated. But they also want to deal with the status of DREAMers, right? The fact that we have hundreds of thousands of dreamers in Arizona, and they're not kids anymore.

Speaker 7 They now have families, they're teachers, they're part of our community, they have businesses, they have homes, and you know, you have a very severe threat coming from people like Carrie Lake, who says she will deport dreamers, right?

Speaker 7 In a time and place where these people are part of our society, they have American kids, many of them, we have one politician that's going to deport these people that came here not through their own volition and want to be U.S.

Speaker 7 citizens, but if it isn't for our own, if it isn't because of the broken immigration system, they don't actually have the ability to do that. There are lots of other families, right? We talk about how

Speaker 7 we're a country of

Speaker 7 keeping families together, making families strong. We have a lot of mixed-status families, right? Where we have a woman who is married to a U.S.
citizen but has not been able to fix her paperwork.

Speaker 7 We should give them an opportunity to also become here legally and get in the process.

Speaker 7 And so at the same time, we can also have border security. It's possible to do that.
We've done it in the past. I don't understand why we think we can't do it again.

Speaker 5 I'm glad you brought up Dreamers because you may not remember this, but 10 years ago, I think it was 10 years ago, you flew to Arizona on Air Force One with Barack Obama.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 And he was coming here to do an event on housing policy. This is right after the State of the Union in 2014 or 2015.
And you were fresh into Congress at the time.

Speaker 5 And there was a group of really well-meaning young people who were planning to protest the the president at the event. They were dreamers.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 we didn't know what we were going to do about

Speaker 5 the protests. And Congressman Gallego said he would go meet with them and talk to them about it before the event.
And I remember very well. I watched that meeting.

Speaker 5 It was an incredibly impressive thing where you sat down with these young people, you listened to their concerns, you addressed them, and you promised they'd have someone in Washington who would listen to them.

Speaker 5 And that is something that has always stuck with me. And I felt about you and your political career in that moment.

Speaker 3 Thank you.

Speaker 5 Thank you.

Speaker 7 I have so many friends that, close friends, that are dreamers and I've been working with them and

Speaker 7 I used to call them kids and now they're adults. They have kids.

Speaker 7 They're like family to me.

Speaker 7 And it would be just a stain on this country if we deported them because we couldn't fix our immigration system or we couldn't stop these radical politicians like Carrie Lake.

Speaker 7 But I mean in general, I think that's the one thing that we just don't do enough. And I think this is one of the reasons why we're doing well on this campaign, because we are traveling the state.

Speaker 7 We're going to some of the reddest areas of the state.

Speaker 7 And I am actually sitting down having conversations with my Republican counterparts, treating them with respect, asking what they need, what they look, what they're looking for from their senator and from the government.

Speaker 7 And guess what?

Speaker 7 Super majority of the time, I'm not getting any support.

Speaker 7 And that's fine.

Speaker 7 But I'm making myself available to them so they know that they they have someone to talk to, that even if you didn't support me in this election, when I'm in there, I'm going to come back to Havasu.

Speaker 7 I'm going to be coming back to Mojave County. I'm going to be going back to some of these places that, you know what, are ignored by Democrats and Republicans.

Speaker 7 And even after 75% of the time when I get rejected, we do get one or two Republicans are saying, you know what, I'm glad you're here. I'm glad we're talking.

Speaker 7 I want to build on this, and I am going to support you. And I think that's more and more that we need to be doing.
And look, Arizona

Speaker 7 is not represented by this population here. It still is a Republican-leaned state.
There are about 200,000 more Republicans registered in Arizona than Democrats.

Speaker 7 So as a Democrat, you have to work across the aisle to get them to come over, to support you. And that means you have to have very honest and frank conversations.

Speaker 5 So Arizona is also one of the states where the Trump folks worked very hard to overturn the election.

Speaker 5 There's been an indictment of Arizona politicians, including several former aides of the Trump campaign.

Speaker 5 A lot of Republicans who are running for office in Battleground States have tried to walk away from their role in the big lie and January 6th and all of that.

Speaker 5 Your opponent is one of the proudest and loudest pushers of the dangerous conspiracy theory of the big lie. Is this something voters are still interested and focused on? Does it come up in your race?

Speaker 7 It does, but it kind of comes up in the overall picture of who she is. She's dangerous.
She'll She'll say anything, do anything to get power, and they don't trust her because of that.

Speaker 7 It also comes up with a lot of

Speaker 7 independents, Republicans, and veterans.

Speaker 7 People that like me swore to uphold the Constitution of the United States at a very young age that still feel that they have some fealty to that oath and that someone like Carrie Lake is violating that.

Speaker 7 And consistently. And it's also insulting, right? You know, you're telling these people that somehow in 2022, two other Republicans running statewide got more votes than her,

Speaker 7 and then we also elected two Republicans in swing congressional districts and kept a state house and state senate for Republicans, but we decided somehow to just screw her election.

Speaker 7 So, like, in our whole like, and by the way, the fact that Democrats are that organized to do that,

Speaker 5 I love us,

Speaker 3 but

Speaker 7 let's be honest.

Speaker 5 But this is what she's telling people.

Speaker 7 And she's, I mean, she believes it. You know, I had a run-in with her at the airport, and when I asked her, like,

Speaker 7 how did you lose? How did these other two Republicans win and you lose? And she just,

Speaker 7 like, everybody knows I just went full,

Speaker 3 full, full, full.

Speaker 7 But, you know, this is something that, you know, people see and they kind of attach to other politics. Like, how can can I trust you if you're lying to my face

Speaker 7 and then she gets sued for defamation then she admits that she lies part of the the lawsuit and and now she's lying about lying about the lawsuit so

Speaker 7 This is where you know she's doing the basic mistake I think in Arizona politics that people do not trust her and they're not going to trust someone who they think is just a craven politician doing whatever she can just to gain power

Speaker 3 Okay,

Speaker 5 last

Speaker 5 and very tough question for you.

Speaker 5 How can the people, either in this room or listening at home, how can they help you defeat Kerry Lake and give the Democrats the majority that President Kamala Harris needs in the Senate? Thank you.

Speaker 7 Number one,

Speaker 7 we've got to get our commercials out there. We've got to get our mail, got to get our digital.
You can donate, www.gallego4arizona.com. Really appreciate it.
It's Gallego, not Gallegos.

Speaker 7 Happens a lot. It's okay.

Speaker 7 Two, you know, this election,

Speaker 7 whether it's top of ticket all the way to the bottom, they're going to be decided by a couple hundred votes, a couple thousand votes.

Speaker 7 We had an Attorney General's race that last year was decided with around 250 votes, right?

Speaker 7 So door knock,

Speaker 7 call, volunteer. every time you can.
We have about 30 days till ballots drop.

Speaker 7 We're an early voting state.

Speaker 7 Arizonans, Democrats Republicans independents love to vote early so let's talk to them let's have respectful conversations with our fellow Arizonans let's remind them that we're all patriots we all want to do the same thing we all want Arizona move forward if we do that we will win Arizona again

Speaker 5 please give it up for your next senator Ruben Gallagher thank you thank you

Speaker 5 when we come back again

Speaker 3 And we're back!

Speaker 5 There are two kinds of people in this world.

Speaker 5 There's the kind of person who bumps into their political opponent outside a bathroom at Phoenix Sky Harbor Internal Airport and thinks, even though I find my opponent's election denialism and extremism abhorrent, we are both human beings.

Speaker 5 And perhaps in this one fleeting moment, away from the draw of endless shouting matches and viral confrontations, we might be able to see each other as such.

Speaker 5 And perhaps if I model the kind of patriotism that says we can argue and compete at the end of the day, shake hands, and respect the outcome of an election, we can help restore that kind of politics for all of us.

Speaker 5 Until you notice she's sort of cheating out a little because is she fucking filming me?

Speaker 3 And then there's the other kind of person, the person filming you.

Speaker 5 And so it's time for a game we're calling Carried Interest, aka Lake Lake Don't Tell Me.

Speaker 5 Most Arizonans understand that Carrie Lake is a dangerous crank. They've already gone to the polls once and said no, thank you.

Speaker 5 But like a chef offering you seconds of a dish you sent back because you ordered your burger medium, but what came out was well done dog shit.

Speaker 5 Carrie Lake is back. And we have to remind Arizonans of just how out of touch and out of her mind she is because it's frankly hard to believe.
Here's how it works. We have two teams.

Speaker 5 Ruben Gallego, because you were a Marine. I've teamed you up with the second toughest person on this stage, Jane.

Speaker 5 Tommy, John, and Dan will be the other team. I will ask questions.
You will alternate going first. If you are right, you get a point.
If not, the other team can steal for two points.

Speaker 5 Now, it says here that John, Tommy, and Dan are Group A, but former and active military members board first. So we're going to start with Jane and the congressman.

Speaker 5 Question one:

Speaker 5 Denying the results of the election she lost in 2022, Carrie Lake claimed to have whose blood coursing through her veins.

Speaker 3 Trump. Incorrect.

Speaker 5 For the steal.

Speaker 5 Blood? Whose blood did she say was coursing through her veins

Speaker 5 as she fought to steal the election?

Speaker 3 Barry Goldwater? No, no. That's a good call.

Speaker 5 I'm sorry.

Speaker 5 You can go with...

Speaker 4 George Washington?

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 5 Double

Speaker 5 the founding fathers.

Speaker 5 She said Benjamin Franklin and the Founding Fathers. Many assumed it was a metaphor, but she actually broke into the Smithsonian in a daring midnight raid.
No, that's not right.

Speaker 5 That's not right.

Speaker 5 All right. Over to John, Dan, and Tommy.
Too, Carrie Lake's ongoing refusal to accept election results she doesn't like has actually inspired a song. What is the name of that song?

Speaker 3 I mean, you.

Speaker 5 I have no idea.

Speaker 3 And I'm proud of that. 81 million votes?

Speaker 5 So close.

Speaker 7 81 million votes, my ass.

Speaker 3 Correct.

Speaker 5 And I believe we have a clip.

Speaker 5 I believe we have a clip. It's a rap song, too, just to be clear.

Speaker 16 They pissed off an already pissed off woman.

Speaker 3 81 million votes, my ass.

Speaker 16 The crime was committed in broad daylight.

Speaker 3 We're living on planet crazy.

Speaker 5 We are living on planet crazy. It does slap.

Speaker 3 All right.

Speaker 7 She wants to vote on your behalf in the Senate. Just remember that.

Speaker 9 All right.

Speaker 5 Jane, Congressman Gallego, when sued for defamation over her baseless allegations against election officials, the kinds of allegations that have led to threats and force officials to go into hiding.

Speaker 5 How did Carrie Lake defend her previous comments in March of this year?

Speaker 7 She admitted that she actually lied and accepted the fact that she said that she defamed Stephen Richard.

Speaker 5 Yes. I feel like people don't appreciate that.

Speaker 3 I didn't know that. She did not.

Speaker 5 People don't get this. She did not contest the charges.
She surrendered, allowed the court to move straight to damages.

Speaker 5 And then, as you pointed out during the interview, she's now lying about how she admitted to lying about the big fucking lie. Yes.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 7 There's a you may have noticed she's kind of a liar.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 It comes up a lot.

Speaker 3 That's the fruit line.

Speaker 5 Human lighter. John, Tommy, and Dan, according to Carrie Lake, when did America first see racial hatred?

Speaker 5 Racial hatred? When did it appear?

Speaker 3 It was the Obama.

Speaker 5 It was when Barack Obama was elected.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's correct. Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 5 That's correct. I don't believe there was racist hatred.
Obama stoked that.

Speaker 3 Oh.

Speaker 5 So it's one less thing to worry about.

Speaker 3 Oh.

Speaker 3 Well.

Speaker 5 Back to you, Congressman and Jane. What did Carrie Lake Lake consider one of the greatest acts of cowardice in American history? She described this as one of the greatest acts of cowardice.

Speaker 7 What was the act?

Speaker 7 Voting to protect the ACA.

Speaker 5 Incorrect for the steal.

Speaker 3 Mike Pence?

Speaker 5 Is that

Speaker 5 Mike Pence?

Speaker 5 Mike Pence?

Speaker 3 That's correct.

Speaker 5 It was Mike Pence certifying the election. Mike Pence not creating a new made-up rule, which says the vice president picks the president, was an act of cowardice.

Speaker 5 I don't want to bring the vibe down, but I actually was thinking about this, which is...

Speaker 3 Congressman, no, look, the vibe is so high right now. What? The vibe is so good.

Speaker 5 The vibe is great. But no, but I really wanted to ask you this, which is...

Speaker 5 Look, I don't like Mike Pence very much, but you can't describe what he did as cowardice. He was under a lot of pressure and he stood up to do the right thing.

Speaker 5 You've someone who's shown courage, and you've been around people that shown courage. You're humble, but that's a big part of who you are.
What does it tell you about Carrie Lake's character?

Speaker 5 That she is confusing a genuine act of backbone with cowardice?

Speaker 7 Well, she doesn't, she's never had, been put in a situation like that.

Speaker 7 And because she never has ever put in a situation where she has to make a decision between herself and the country, she basically makes an excuse and tries to say someone else is a coward when, in fact, she is the coward.

Speaker 3 I was just saying

Speaker 5 when Carrie Lake said I'm in perfect health the brakes on my car have been checked and they're in working order I am not suicidal who is she suggesting might try to take her out

Speaker 3 wait who is she suggesting for everyone

Speaker 5 that's for that Carrie Lake you guys take this one Carrie Lake said I'm in perfect health The brakes on my car have been checked. They're in working order and I'm not suicidal.

Speaker 5 Who is she suggesting might try to take her out? This is a real quote.

Speaker 3 Joe Biden?

Speaker 5 Sure, yeah.

Speaker 5 Joe Biden?

Speaker 3 Incorrect.

Speaker 5 It was Hillary Clinton.

Speaker 5 That was a twist.

Speaker 3 Should have known.

Speaker 3 Honestly, that's always the answer.

Speaker 5 That's just second fault.

Speaker 7 When it died with her, it's always that, yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah, we should have known.

Speaker 5 Is there a slaughter rule to this? I'd be like, I know, yeah, you know.

Speaker 3 You are crushing.

Speaker 5 I understand there's a sports term in there like how like in a little league game if the kids are winning by too much all right back to you congressman and jane carrie lake was caught on tape saying the only people who can enforce that law are our sheriffs and we need to start asking the sheriffs if they're willing to enforce that what is the law carrie lake was referring to 1864 abortion law that's correct She said that in April of this year, when she was meeting with Republicans behind closed doors, less than six months ago, a law she has repeatedly praised.

Speaker 5 You know what that sound means?

Speaker 3 You know what that sound meets?

Speaker 5 It's a lightning round where the points really add up.

Speaker 5 And so it's time to play a round of, say it with me, who would carry Lake throw in jail for personal or political reasons?

Speaker 5 Now anyone can shout out the answer if they know it. That's how the lightning round works.

Speaker 5 How dare you?

Speaker 5 Said, fuck you, Harley Jarvis. He's compared.
How dare you?

Speaker 3 All right.

Speaker 5 Carrie Lake has not just brainstormed about getting sheriffs to enforce an abortion law passed before women could vote or doctors knew about washing their hands.

Speaker 5 Believing the government should go after people she doesn't like is her kind of her vibe. Any team can answer.
First up, Carrie Lake referred to the members of this profession as criminals.

Speaker 4 Doctors?

Speaker 5 I hear teachers, nurses. You're getting warmer.

Speaker 5 Give you a hint, they're the enemy of the people.

Speaker 3 Faucies.

Speaker 3 We'll get there.

Speaker 5 It's journalists.

Speaker 3 Journalists. It's journalists.

Speaker 3 We should have known that.

Speaker 16 Do not believe a word that the corrupt media says that they're liars.

Speaker 3 And frankly, I think they're criminals.

Speaker 17 I mean some of them probably should be locked up.

Speaker 3 All right.

Speaker 5 Wild.

Speaker 5 She was an anchor, I believe, a TV anchor.

Speaker 3 She was a TV anchor.

Speaker 5 She was a part of the profession. Double checking.

Speaker 3 That was zeal of the converted.

Speaker 5 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, not a good one.
Carrie Lake said, Iver minked as a wonder drug before suggesting the sheriffs arrest this doctor.

Speaker 3 Anthony Fauci. That is true.

Speaker 17 I'm encouraging

Speaker 16 any lawman here, and I'm talking sheriffs, to issue a warrant for Anthony Fauci's arrest out of Arizona.

Speaker 5 Carrie Lake also wanted to jail this opponent and former Arizona Secretary of State.

Speaker 3 Katie Hobbs. Katie Hobbs.
Correct.

Speaker 16 Katie Hobbs is going to have a really tough time campaigning from behind bars, to be honest.

Speaker 9 What do you mean Katie Hobbs is going to be behind bars?

Speaker 16 Okay, you know what I mean, Steve.

Speaker 16 She's basically the mastermind of the 2020 election.

Speaker 5 You didn't know this. You didn't know this.
It was Katie Hobbs pulling Obama's strings, pulling Biden's strings, pulling Kama.

Speaker 5 It goes all the way to the top. Katie fucking Hobbs.

Speaker 5 Arrest her ring light there, man.

Speaker 3 Their face was glowing.

Speaker 4 I know, I just, I have to say that in comparison to Steve Fannin, I'm like, damn, Carrie.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 That lighting is so good.

Speaker 5 That lighting is good. Also good, our winners, Congressman Ruben Gallego and Jade have won the game.
Now,

Speaker 5 speaking of winning the game,

Speaker 5 I did want to leave you with this moment from Carrie Light.

Speaker 16 The media,

Speaker 17 hit your record button back there.

Speaker 1 Her pronouns are I won.

Speaker 5 Her pronouns are I won.

Speaker 5 I just know she didn't.

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 4 And that's not what pronouns are.

Speaker 5 She didn't win.

Speaker 5 And to make sure she doesn't win, go to Gallego for Arizona and votesaveamerica.com and sign up to make sure we put Ruben Gallego in the Senate and send Carrie Lake back to Truth Social where she belongs.

Speaker 3 That's our show for tonight. Thank you to Ruben Gallego.
Thanks, Jane Coston. Check out What a Day on Monday and go see the Vote Save America boots outside.

Speaker 5 Thank you guys.

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Speaker 3 Pod Save America is a cricket media production. Our producer is David Toledo.
Our associate producers are Saul Rubin and Faris Safari.

Speaker 3 Reed Cherlin is our executive editor, and Adrian Hill is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.

Speaker 3 Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Writing support by Hallie Kiefer.
Madeleine Herringer is our head of news and programming.

Speaker 3 Matt DeGroote is our head of production. Andy Taft is our executive assistant.

Speaker 3 Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Phoebe Bradford, Joseph Dutra, Ben Hefcote, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kirill Pelavive, and David Toles.

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