Trump’s Mar-a-Lago Meltdown

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CF for terms. Welcome to Pod Save America.
I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Dan Pfeiffer.

On today's show, Kamala Harris takes the lead in the race for the White House just three weeks after announcing her candidacy.

But now she's got to reintroduce herself to voters in the lead up to the convention.

While the Trump campaign throws everything they have at her and Tim Walz.

And later, our pal Brian Tyler Cohen is here to talk about his brand new book and play a round of take appreciators with me and love it. But first, remember Donald Trump? Who? Since the debate on June 27th, he's held only eight campaign rallies and we haven't seen him on the trail all week.
The Washington Post reports that he's, quote, upset and, quote, complaining relentlessly about Kamala Harris's surging poll numbers and massive crowds. He's posting fantasies about Biden crashing the Democratic Convention to take back the nomination.
And all of this might be why the old man decided to shuffle out of his beach club on Thursday and yell at the cameras for a while. Here's some highlights from Trump's press conference.
In history, for any country, nobody's had crowds like I have. And you know that.
And when she gets a thousand people and everybody starts jumping, you know that if I had a thousand people would say, people would say, that's the end of his campaign. I have hundreds of thousands of people, but she has a thousand people or 1500 people.
And they say, oh, the enthusiasm's back. No, no.
The biggest crowd I've ever spoken before was that day. And I'll tell you, it's very hard to find a picture of that crowd.
You see the picture of a small number of people relatively going to the Capitol, but you never see the picture of the crowd. The biggest crowd I've ever spoken, I've spoken to the biggest crowds.
Nobody's spoken to crowds bigger than me. If you look at Martin Luther King, when he did his speech, his great speech, and you look at ours, same real estate, same everything, same number of people.
If not, we had more. And they said he had a million people, but I had 25,000 people.
But when you look at the exact same picture, we actually had more people. I'm not complaining.
I'm saying it's out. Comparing his crowd on January 6th to Martin Luther King's I Have a Dream speech during the March on Washington.
I was driving. I had to go pick up Kyla from basketball camp during that press conference.
And I was driving with it, playing in the car. And I almost sort of off the road at Martin Luther King because I did not see that one coming.
I should have, but I didn't. That was a compilation of all the times he talked about crowd size.
I actually think there were some more. First of all, the press conference lasted over an hour.
He continued to bring it back to crowd size and polls. It was a wild press conference.
I feel like we say that every time he does a press conference and we're like, this one is really wild. This one, I'm trying to think of what was different about it.
He seemed, first of all, he's very angry. He's very frustrated.
He does seem upset. Oh, he does.
And so, yeah, I do think that Washington Post story is true about him complaining relentlessly because we all heard him do it. What'd you think? What were some of your takes on the press conference? I mean, I agree with that.
He cannot get over the state of the race. He is a lazy, entitled human being, and he thought he was cruising to the White House, and now he's not.
And he is mad about it. The other thing he kept bringing it back to was how he was definitely not mad about Kamala Harris being the candidate now.
He was definitely not mad at all. I'm not complaining.
I'm not complaining. But the Democrats destroyed the Constitution by Joe Biden stepping down.
I mean, in his vehement defense of Joe Biden, who he repeatedly said he did not like. He doesn't like his brain.
He said, I don't like his brain. But I just think about this.
He has not done anything all week. He has a rally in the core battleground state of Montana later tonight.
Tonight, right? Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
Thursday night. Whatever.
Yeah, Thursday night. The night.
We are recording this at the night you were listening to this. It's always tricky for me.
And so here he is. He's got the whole press in front of him and he does nothing to advance his message.
No message. No policy.
Later today, which you can tell one of the things his advisors told him to do was to talk about his proposals on taxation of tips and no taxation on Social Security because he's been truthing the hell out of them afterwards, like to try to clean it up. Did he talk about Kamala Harris's record? Not really.
Did he talk about Tim Walz's record? Not really. Did he talk about any of his plans, anything he's going to do? Nope.
Not really at all. No.
It's just... Did he talk about how the economy was great when he was president? Did he talk about what the economy is now? Did he talk about...? He just, he started out the press conference by saying, we are headed toward a depression.
It's going to be worse than 1929 and also a world war and the country is an awful place and everything, everyone's laughing at us and then he just sort of went off on a tangent that lasted for about an hour about himself and how he's angry with Kamala Harris and himself and his poll numbers and his crowd size and all the rest. Here's what I'd say.
Get out there more. More press conferences, more rallies.
Every day. Every single day.
Let's do it every day. There were some newsy things he was asked.
He was asked whether he would restrict access to Mifepristone. And they really caught him because instead of saying the abortion pill, they said Mifepristone.
And he clearly has no idea what Mifepristone is because his response was, you could do things. Absolutely.
Those things are pretty open and humane. That's what he said.
Would you restrict, would you, would you ask the, would you have the FDA restrict access to Mifepristone? We could do, you could do things. Absolutely.
Yeah. Um, he also, someone asked him how he'd be voting on the constitutional amendment in florida to protect abortion access and he said he'd be holding a press conference about that and and he'll have a more liberal answer than you think um sure i guess we're holding our breath for that press conference i'm sure you know when his staff learned about that press conference during this conference yes just then um he said he was off trail.
When someone asked him why he wasn't campaigning, he said he was off the trail because of the Democratic Convention, which is in two weeks. I would just note, I would just note that for a long time, for decades, there was a tradition where you did not campaign during the other person's convention.
I think we actually, yeah, there was. We actually broke that.
I think Obama was one of the people who tore down that norm but it is definitely not tradition that you do you don't campaign for the month before the convention like that's not that's not how you do this he once again questioned uh kamala harris's race someone asked him a question about why he did that why he said that at the uh nabj and he said whether it's indian or black i think it's very disrespectful to both and then when he was asked about her surging in the polls he said well she's a woman and she represents certain groups of people that was his response he did some uh really in-depth poll analysis of the impact she would have in the race about who would help him with and who would hurt him with yeah he really started going into a demographic groups like he's on he was on Polar Coaster. He's not invited.
Do not come on Polar Coaster, Donald Trump. Have we talked about the fact that it's clear now he has confused insane asylums for asylum seekers? Have we talked about that on this podcast? I can't remember.
You and I have not talked about it. Have you talked about it with anyone else on another podcast? I don't know.
I don't think so. I don't know what I say in public or what I say.
What's a text? What's a meeting? What's a podcast? But it is clear that the reason he's always talking about other countries dumping out their mental institutions around whenever he's bringing up immigration, it's now clear that it's because he thinks insane asylums are like asylum seekers. And he has conflated those two terms.
It is much like in 2016 when he tweeted no cuts to Medicaid when he meant to tweet no cuts to Medicare. And he didn't know the difference.
Right. And of course, he did propose very large cuts.
He opposed to basically eliminate Medicaid or completely eliminate the federal guarantee for Medicaid and then also cuts to Medicare. Yes.
Also, he's really into he said this when Tim Walls was first selected. He said it again.
Transgender has become such a big thing and he's really into transgender. He's really into everything transgender.
So he doesn't really know. He doesn't.
He doesn't know much about stuff. And so he can sort of skate on the surface of a lot of these words like he knows the words he hears the buzzwords in the background when he's watching cable he's watching his favorite shows so he can say you know a couple sentences but he really can't go beyond that he has the public affairs knowledge of a regular cable news watcher who does a lot of two screening yeah that's about right oh so the other newsy thing uh he said he's now agreed to the ABC debate on September 10th.
That debate is now on. Kamala Harris afterwards said she's in, so that is happening.
We are headed towards a September 10th debate. Donald Trump, Kamala Harris.
Exciting stuff. He said he's also agreed, of course, to the Fox Fox debate on September 4th which Kamala Harris has not agreed to because he wants it to take place in a MAGA Thunderdome with like a bunch of a huge audience that are like all his people and then a new one he said he wants a debate with NBC on September 25th she said's open to that one.
We're going to get by that first September 10th debate first to see. Why do you think Donald Trump changed his mind? Because she's surging and he's sagging, right? A week ago, I mean, you guys talked about this on Tuesday, but last Friday night, he pulled out of all the debates, pulled out of the ABC debate, doesn't want to do it.
Seemed like the last thing in the world he wanted to do was debate Kamala Harris. But she's on a glide path right now, right? She was – she gained, and then she passed him in the national polling average.
All these states are toss-ups. He knows she's heading into a convention in two weeks.
That is more momentum for her, and he's got to do something. But he cannot He cannot just sit on his ass in Mar-a-Lago and win this election.
He's finally come to that conclusion. And so he wants to do many debates.
And he seems to be trying to... He looked weak.
I think he recommends he also looked weak and scared this past week from not wanting to debate. So he's trying to go back on offense here and seem like he he's the one pushing for debates can't wait can't wait would you do more debates if you were her if i was her yeah uh depends on how the first one goes right like i mean you know there's a scenario where she absolutely crushes it in that first debate and then it's like why do you do another one another one? Then there's almost any other scenario, even a scenario where they're, where like she wins, but you know, enough people say that maybe he did okay.
Or, and then he starts like pulling even or pulling ahead in September. Then maybe you want to do another debate.
Or if she does poorly, then you probably do want to do another debate. I mean, you calculus for Biden to want the debate, something that will- Not to go back, yeah.
Yeah, the history will wonder about for a long time. But the original calculus was, we need the elector to focus on Donald Trump to win.
That was Joe Biden's calculus. That's not necessarily, we'll get to this, but that's not necessarily Kamala Harris's calculus.
But I do think she's largely undefined, which we'll also get to. But getting on stage and kicking his ass, I think has real value and doing it multiple times, I think probably also has real value.
But I think your approach is probably right. You could theoretically agree to two.
And then after you kick his ass on the first one, say, I don't want to put Donald through this again, like he did about Biden. To me, it feels a little bit like the Obama-McCain debates in 08, which is like, I think that voters, you know, like Obama was ahead, voters still just needed to know that he could do the job, that he was ready.
And all it took was sort of like one or two debates with McCain. And they're like, okay, even though everyone's saying he's this like new inexperienced young guy, he stood up there on stage.
He held his own. He knows what he's talking about.
He gave as good as he got. And like, that was it.
Yeah. She shouldn't have to do that.
Cause she's the vice president of the United States. Like it's basically interjumped.
Oh, but she, but again, everyone, everyone has the memory of a goldfish now. And, uh, people don't, and the media is fractured, so people don't know her as well as they should.

And like with Obama, you're asking people to make history, in this case, in several different ways. And so the burden is unfairly on Kamala Harris in the way it wouldn't be on a white man candidate.
Yeah, but it is, I think for voters, it's probably more of a reassurance and who is she and what is she for than can she really kick Donald Trump's ass? Though for the press and the way it's going to be covered, people will want to see that she can kick Donald Trump's ass. Kicking Donald Trump's ass is not about beating Donald Trump.
It's demonstrating strength on her behalf in an election where, and because you also, that is the emperor has no clothes moment for Trump, right? If you're running as a strongman and you get your ass kicked in a debate, like that is very hard for you. And that did not happen in either of the two elections, even though just the way it would play out, I think, is different than it would be with Biden or Clinton because of just how those politicians were perceived and how unknown Kamala Harris is to people.
So I think it's just a very fascinating strategic calculus for them. It's different than it was for Biden in a similar situation.
Yeah, for sure. Polling, big source of Trump's anger.
Kamala Harris is now leading by two points nationally in the 538 average. As you mentioned, that includes a whopping 53 to 47 lead in the latest Marquette poll, which is one of the highest rated polls out there.
She's also got a point lead in their Wisconsin poll, has seemingly tied it up in Georgia, closing the gap in Arizona. Our friends at Split Ticket also found a one point lead for Harris in the blue wall states of Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania.
Their late July poll just a couple of weeks ago found Biden trailing Trump by seven in those states. Quite a swing.
Seems like a long honeymoon for Harris, huh? What do you make of all the polling? Care to rain on our parade at all? I know that would be on-brand. That's what I go to you for, yeah.
But you know what? I'm not going to do that today. I'm not going to rain on anyone's parade.
Oh, Dan's just guaranteeing a win. I'm not guaranteeing anything.
I'm just saying let's just revel in the positivity right now. Think of where we were three weeks ago.
Three weeks ago, Donald Trump was cruising for an electoral landslide that would have brought him the House and the Senate at the same time. Georgia, Arizona, Nevada were off the map and no longer competitive for Democrats.
Biden was behind in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin. The odds of victory were quite long.
The states of Minnesota, Virginia, New Mexico, and New Jersey were becoming competitive. Here we are now, three weeks later, new ticket, toss-up race, right? All six states are within the margin of error in toss-ups.
Joe Biden had one path to 270 if you squinted as hard as you possibly could. Kamala Harris has as many paths to 270 as Donald Trump does right now.
She has momentum. She is surging.
That doesn't mean it's in the bag. There's a ton of work to do.
We have to remember that the country is more democratic than Electoral College. So even a two-point lead in the popular vote is about probably a tie, if not a slight deficit in the battleground states.
But we are – the Democrats, Kamala Harris, Tim Walls, we are in this in a way that seemed impossible to imagine three weeks ago. So we should, there's a ton of work to do, a ton of work to do to define her, to win this race, to make sure that the voters turn out, but to get back, even though she's made huge improvements with young voters, Black voters, Latino voters over where we were three weeks ago, there's still work to do to get to the numbers that we had in 2020.
And we probably have to exceed them because if you look deep in the poll, you see some bleeding with older white voters.

And so we're going to need more young voters, more black voters, more Latino voters to make up that deficit and win. But we can be happy right now.
We can be excited and overjoyed at where we are because it's not anywhere where we thought we would be just three weeks ago. I think if you look under the top lines of these polls, what has happened, what she's been able to do is essentially consolidate the Biden 2020 vote in a way that Biden could not or was not when he when he left the race.
And so his weakness with younger voters, black voters, Latino voters who had not necessarily said they were voting for Trump, some had, but were flirting with a third party candidate or not voting at all. It seems like she has consolidated that vote.
But of course, that still brings you to a 2020 race that was decided by 40,000 votes across three states. So super close.
And you can hear it in some folks groups too. The sort of sort of Trump Biden voters, the Trump voters from 16 who switched over to Biden and 20.
You know, there's still work to do with them. Like you said, there's still work to do, you know, registering and turning out more Democratic leaning constituencies and voters.
and you know it's going to be close and and and trump will still get you know never one lesson since 2016 has been like never underestimate republican turnout when donald trump is on the ballot and it always breaks records so that's that's something that we have to think about in the next couple months one quick housekeeping note before we move on uh it's summertime it's a beautiful day out there or it's 120 degrees it's degrees. Either way, this is your sign to step outside.
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Terms and conditions apply. We are recording this exactly two weeks before the vice president delivers her acceptance speech at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago.
The next 14 days are a window for the Harris-Walls campaign to frame the race and define the candidates on their terms. A new blueprint poll found that voters are more responsive to informative pro-Harris messaging that focuses on her biography, record as a prosecutor, and commitment to economic populism and immigration reform.
They are less persuaded by anti-Trump messages because 71% of all voters say their minds are already made up about Trump and

there's nothing you can do to change their mind, whether they're against or for. Obviously,

Harris goes after Trump pretty hard in her stump speech right now, but especially this week,

she's been leaning into a more positive message. Here she is accepting the UAW endorsement in

Detroit today. We want to recognize the right all people have to freedom and liberty to make choices, especially those that are about heart and home and not have their government telling them what to do.
Our campaign is about saying we trust the people.

We are a nation of people who believe in those ideals that were foundational to what made us so special as a nation. And we know we are a work in progress.

We haven't yet quite reached all of those ideals.

But we will die trying because we love our country and we believe in who we are. And that's what our campaign is about.
We love our country. We believe in our country.
We believe in each other. So how would you balance the anti-Trump, pro-Kamala message if you were the Harris campaign? There has been a theory all along that if this election is about Donald Trump, Donald Trump will lose.
That was certainly the theory when Biden was the Democratic nominee. do you toss that theory aside and say she needs to define herself?

She needs to define her agenda and she needs to tell people what the Democratic Party is for?

Or do you do some kind of a mix? What do you think?

It's a little bit of a mix. You do have to throw the previous model aside because we have been

analyzing this race in the context

of an election that was the present versus the recent past. And now it is the past versus the future.
And that's a very different – and Kamala Harris is the vice president to the incumbent president, but she does not represent the status quo in the way that Biden did. She represents change from Biden, change from Trump, change from these sort of grinding politics we've been in since Trump came down the escalator 10 years ago.
It is a different, more hopeful future. And so the way to do it, I think, is to – she has to educate people about herself.
Like all the polling, all the focus groups, the public stuff, the private stuff, all shows the same thing. The single most important thing is to educate people about her biography, her positions, and her values.
She has high name ID. People know almost nothing about her.
And the persuadable voters know less than everyone else. And so you have to do that.
And that's what the ads that the campaign and the smart people who run the super PACs have on the air right now. It's all bio stuff.
Now, in your sub speech, you got a crowd of people who hate Donald Trump there. You got to give him some stuff.
And so you got to do it contrast, right? I think her best riff is the prosecutor-perpetrator one because it's her bio against him, right? And against what he stands for and who he is. And so all of the testing I have seen in this cycle shows that the best ads are contrast ads.
Now, for Kamala Harris, you have this urgency that you need every second of that 60-second ad to educate people about her because no nominee has ever been this – this seems crazy for the vice president of the United States. But this less known at this point in the race.
Everyone else has been has been through a year primary, right? They've campaigned in, you know, 40 or 50 states, or they're the incumbent president. She just, for most people, popped up on their screen two and a half weeks ago, and now she is the nominee with 88 days or 80, 70 days, whatever it is to go.
And so you have to do a lot on her bio and who she is and what she stands for. And there's a way to do that where you're not just like reading your Wikipedia page, but you're tying, you take every aspects of your bio.
And this is in this great ad they have up target Latino voters that talks about her position on immigration as someone who is a children of immigrants. And so like, it's that way, like use your bio to as the reason why you have certain policy positions and then use Donald Trump's bio to be why he has certain policy positions.
It's not exactly Scranton versus Mar-a-Lago or whatever that sort of frame was, but it's kind of in that realm. Yeah, and I think that the prosecutor versus convicted felon riff was like very useful at the beginning of the campaign to show fight to take on Donald Trump as she was still sort of consolidating the Democratic Party.
I would imagine that as she goes forward and she's already doing this, that sort of morphs into using the elements of her bio that show her as a fighter who can take on powerful corporate interests on behalf of people and Trump's only for himself. And so, you know, an element of her bio that's particularly effective when she talks about it is, you know, she was attorney general for the fifth largest economy in the world in California and took on the big banks on behalf of homeowners.
And when she was vice president with Joe Biden, she took on pharmaceutical companies to bring down the cost of insulin. And so I think she'll be introducing herself on those terms.
And, you know, we heard her do this in the clip that we just listened to. They are going to try to other her, right? And they're doing it to her and Tim Walz, right? Like she is not like us.
She is, whether it's Donald Trump implying that she's, you know, she's a phony. Is she biracial? Is she just changing who she is, right? Not pronouncing her name correctly, not spelling her name correctly, right? This is what they did to Barack Obama too.
So they are going to try to other her and say that she's not like us. She's not like your typical American.
And she can get up there as she just did in that clip and talk about how much she loves this country. And, you know, she and Tim Walz said this at the event where she introduced him and announced him a couple of middle-class kids.
She's from Oakland. He's from Nebraska.
And she's the middle-class daughter of immigrants who has lived the American dream. And now she's going to fight to make sure every single person in this country can live the American dream too.
And you contrast that with Donald Trump, who has had everything fucking handed to him and only cares about himself. It's a great contrast.
The Republican MAGA version of the American story is like you fell off the Mayflower. You just arrived you just arrived in Plymouth rock.
And, but the true American story that everyone knows, cause that's everyone's family is at some point, your parents, your grandparents, your great grandparents are immigrants from somewhere. And telling that story is like, I mean, that's Republicans look to scans at Obama's version of his story, right.
With a single mom and a father who wasn't from this country. And they're like, that's not the American story.
But that rings true to everyone. And her story is truly a quintessential American story.
And so there's a way of telling it that that informs your values that inform your policies going forward. Yeah, for sure.
How would you spend these two weeks leading up to her convention speech? And what do you think the goals of the convention itself should be? So for the next, at least the next week, right? The week of the convention, it makes sense to sort of do some stuff a little bit lower key so that your convention is getting the attention, right? Because Tim Wallace is going to speak one night. President Obama, I assume, will speak one night.
President Biden will speak one night. You want that to drive your message.

But next week, normally you would sort of just glide into the convention just doing your stump speech.

And I think going with Tim Walz and introducing herself and giving a version of her stump

in each of these battleground states is the right choice.

This is our first time in most of these states, and certainly our first time with Tim Walz

to do that.

But you've got to continue to be on offense.

So you're going to have to start.

We're now at the point in the race, starting next week you got to mix in a new hit on Trump every day. And, you know, I would think about doing some policy rollouts next week.
I know that sounds crazy. But because her convention speech needs to be so much about introducing her, I worry about a convention speech that's introducing her but also laying out her vision for the future.
We're going to get into like some sort of, you know, horrendous version of a state of the union, right? That's not what you want. You want it to be tight.
You want it to be good. You want it to be powerful.
Honestly, that was our 08 convention speech right up until like two days before. And we just kept cutting and cutting and cutting and just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger with policy.
You have to, there's a lot of business to get done in any convention speech, her specifically. No one cares about the policy part of it.
Right. They care about it in terms of people want to know who she's going to fight for and what she's going to do for them.
And I think if she has a real tight section on lowering costs, affordability, what she plans to do, that's going to take care of it. Right.
But what you give yourself, she's in the position where by the time Barack Obama gave the speech, he'd given 700 economic policy speeches on the campaign trail. So you could reference it here.
She has given no economic policy speeches as a presidential candidate. So I'm not saying, I know the speechwriters, I like the speechwriters personally too much, it suggests a major economic policy speech before the convention.
I'm not saying that. But just do, but just, I would do that to you.
I would not do that to them. Just like, you can just, you can put it in it, you can just insert it into a speech in Michigan next week, right? Just like one proposal here, one proposal there.
Even just like, I think she even said this at one point, like on day one, I'm going to appoint someone to go after price gouging, right? There are some things you can do like that. They're just easy that you can then reference in the speech.
The main thing here is she has succeeded by being on offense the whole time. And you can already see the press, not that the press matters that much, but it still matters some, is going to get bored with this quickly.
And they're going to start putting pressure on her. I'd also, she did this today.
the press is already freaking out she hasn't talked to them enough um and so she took a few questions today uh before leaving detroit i think do that a couple do that all week just a couple here a couple there of course one of the questions was why aren't you taking more questions from us why aren't you doing an interview she did say i knew, I knew that would get you. But she said,

I talked to my team.

We're going to schedule an interview

by the end of this month,

like a sit down thing.

So she,

which was good.

But I would even,

I just like,

just the thing we'll always hear

is let the air out of the balloon slowly.

Right?

So that when you do,

like I do some local TV interviews next week.

Right?

Yeah.

I know,

I know the Washington press won't count those,

but they kind of,

they have to pretend like they count.

Right.

Yeah.

And just,

so what you don't want.

You can't shit all over the local media.

I don't want shit all over the local media i would just take that you want that out of the way before the convention speech so you can roll out of the convention speech and i don't know what they have planned whether it's like a bus tour a boat tour what just like a barnstorming tour where you can just really build that momentum for a few days without the press screaming at you every time you turn around why why won't you talk to us? So just like take care of that business now

so that you can maximize

the convention moment

going forward.

I hope it's a boat tour

and just go through Great Lakes.

Yeah, who did the boat tour?

I did not do a boat tour.

Did John Kerry do a boat tour?

Either John Kerry did a boat tour

or Barack Obama did a boat tour.

I think it was John Kerry.

Yeah, John Kerry did like

a Sea to Shining Sea tour

after the convention

because it was in Boston.

So he went right across the country. He went all the way to Oregon, I think.
Like he was talking Lewis and Clark. Didn't work.
Nobody didn't get dysentery on the Oregon Trail. Harris's new running mate, Tim Walls, is also in a race to define himself before the Trump campaign can do it for him.
Their senior advisor, Chris Lasavita, was the person who led the Swiftboat attack against John Kerry's military service way back in 2004. God, 20 years ago.
And now he's doing the same thing to Walls. J.D.
Vance kicked off the attack this week by accusing Walls of lying about his rank in the military, his service, and leaving the National Guard before his unit was deployed to Iraq. One other Trump campaign line of attack on Walls has blown up in their face after ABC unearthed the recording of Trump praising Walls for his response to the George Floyd protests.
Let's listen. I know Governor Walls is on the phone and we spoke and I fully agree with the way he handled it the last couple of days.
asked him to do that and the whole world was laughing two days three days later i spoke to the governor the governor's i think on the call and he's an excellent guy these dummies they're like from the moment walls gets picked they're telegraphing like, oh, his handling of the George Floyd protests in Minneapolis.

This is going to be the main line of attack.

We're going to get him because he didn't send the National Guard out, you know, with they wanted it one afternoon and he sent it out the next morning. And that was going to be the whole thing.
And then they got Donald Trump being like, great job. We love you.
Excellent guy. I'm sure he just loves Tim Walls because his last name is Walls.
I never really

thought that that line of attack was going to be

that salient

oh my I'm sure he just loves Tim Walsh because his last name is Walsh. I never really thought that that line of attack was going to be that salient only because I feel like, again, we all have the memory of Goldfish now, and that's gotten worse over the years.
I feel like talking about something that happened in 2020 in one city in the country feels like it has limited effectiveness. The only thing it does is that it gives like MAGA Republicans who go on TV something to say, because there's really nothing else to say about Tim Walz.
Right. He is incredibly successful, incredibly likeable.
Oh, no, no. He had the, he had the audacity to have tampons in, in school bathrooms.
That's that, that, that one did did rocket around the magosphere

pretty quickly.

They're very upset.

They want to call him

Tampon Tim

and they think that

that's going to be,

that's it.

He's done.

I mean,

I would stipulate one

that almost any time

spent focusing on Tim Walls

is probably a win

for us because

I was going to say

this whole thing

of like,

why are you going

this hard at the,

I mean,

I know we've done

our share of

JD Vance attacking, but I do think that there's, again, there's limited value in that as well. Well, I mean, we, I think we've been pretty open that that's mostly catharsis.
Like it's, it's a music, like we deserve that. Right.
Like, like you don't see the Harris campaign spending all their time on JD Vance. Right.
Right. I mean, you have to, the JD Vance part that was useful was his connections to project 2025.
Like that was a helpful, that drove a larger narrative about Trump. The things about Tim Walz's handling of something in Minnesota four years ago does not drive any sort of message about Kamala Harris.
And once again, the guy is a veteran gun-owning football coach from rural Minnesota. Like you're not going to make him into some sort of radical.
Like this is not, that is not feasible. Well, what are your thoughts on the, uh, on the attempt to swift vote him, uh, attacking his military record? I mean, it's disgusting and despicable and totally unsurprising from Trump and the people running his campaign and it's complete and total bullshit, right? He filed paperwork for Congress a month before there were even rumors that his unit could be deployed.
He announced for Congress a month before his unit got ordered. So there's no evidence that he ran for Congress to avoid going to Iraq.
It's complete bullshit. He served 24 years in the Guard.
You only had to serve 20 to get retirement. He served 24 years.
He was also deployed during the war in Afghanistan, Operation Enduring Freedom. He was stationed in Italy at the time.
In an ad, he was talking about assault weapons bans, and he was saying, I've carried weapons of war in a war. And so they were attacking him on that.
But, you know, as the campaign said, he has carried, fired, and trained others to use weapons of war innumerable times. And he was stationed in Italy doing security missions during operation during freedom which was the war in afghanistan so it's like what what are we talking about yeah this is it is just absolutely ridiculous like it's it's totally absurd i think the stuff like people are going to hear this because these are the kind of things that will rocket around the internet like in your text exchange with your uncle you're going to get the tampon thing and you're going to get the veteran thing.
And so the things that we just laid out here are the talking points to respond to that. Once again, attacking Tim Walls' service record and attacking his gubernatorial record for one period of time that Donald Trump praised four years ago is not a particularly constructive use of time from the Trump's campaign.
But if you want to win the argument with your mag uncle, these are the points you need. Yeah, and also there's a guy who served with him in his unit who's a Republican and said doesn't like his politics, not going to vote for Kamala Harris and Tim Walz.
But he's like he was a fantastic soldier, loved serving with them. And of course, he did not leave the guard to avoid Iraq.
He left the guard so he could run for Congress. The other argument here is that he has inflated his rank because he rose to the rank of command Sergeant Major, but he did not retire with that rank because you have to serve for three years of that rank to retire with it.
So he retired at a lower rank. And there have been a couple of times in pieces of paper, including one from the Harris campaign that said retired ass as opposed to rose to.

But like we are.

That's it.

That's the whole controversy.

It is a semantic argument

that is absolutely absurd.

And just the fact

that we're having this conversation

speaks to how,

what an amazing pick Tim Walz is

because this is the best they have, right?

And it's also,

well, it's also a sign

that they are flailing right now

and they are desperate.

Like you said, they think that the press might be a little bored. The honeymoon has gone on too long.
She's gotten a lot of good press. So like they, they see an opening to just latch onto something, which I think by the way, you know, they might've had some traction had Donald Trump not gone out today and for an hour, just fucking had a breakdown on national television.

Yes.

Because now, once again, he made himself the story. So we're going to deal with that for another news cycle.
And then we got next week and then we got the convention. So, yeah, they are running out of time.
But obviously, lots of work to do for Kamala Harris and Tim Walls and the whole campaign and all of us. When we come back, we will talk to our friend Brian Tyler Cohen about his new book, Shameless, Republicans' Deliberate Dysfunction

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Look, we know things don't feel great right now, but we can equip ourselves for the unprecedented months ahead without letting the news overwhelm us. Join us each week at Strict Scrutiny as we break down the cases that will decide the rules we all have to live by.
We'll supplement your daily news diet with a dose of necessary legal analysis and a healthy serving of our Real Housewives takes, some pop music, and 90s throwbacks because we believe there's no better way to unwind after an oral argument than by watching a stupid reality TV argument.

Subscribe to Strict Scrutiny wherever you get your podcasts and don't forget to check out full episodes on YouTube. Joining me now, our good pal Brian Tyler Cohen, YouTuber, podcaster, and now author.
His book, Shameless, Republicans, Deliberate Dysfunction and the Battle to Preserve Democracy, comes out on August 13th. You can preorder it now wherever books are sold.
Brian, welcome. Thank you so much.
Look at this. Look at this book.
I love it. I love the cover.
We got Abe Lincoln here. We got the Lincoln Memorial, but he's got his hand on his face.
Cowering in shame. He is embarrassed.
Cowering in shame. Well, let me just say, first off, it's awesome to be here.
And a big part of why I do what I do is because of what you guys do. You are a huge part of my media diet and a huge inspiration for me.
So to be here is really exciting. And I appreciate it.
That's too nice of you. That's how you get good questions in the interview.
Let's go. Yeah, you know me.
It's going to be some hard-hitting shit here. So as someone who just wrote a book with the help of three other people and still complain the whole time why'd you do it why'd you do this to yourself i i guess i just have like i i i just wanted my life to be as miserable as humanly possible here's the thing this was written between the hours of 10 p.m and 3 a.m every night in the aftermath of all of the work when do you sleep how what are you doing there's very little sleep thank God I don't have kids.
I just have a chihuahua who's fine with me sitting there and writing all day. But yeah, a lot of it, a lot of it happened.
It's an impossible news cycle to find free time in. It's not like we're done at 6 p.m.
Yeah. What made you want to write the book? You obviously like have this huge platform where you can say whatever you'd like all the time.
Like what made you want to put a book together? Yeah, I think it's important to reach different people where they are. I mean, so much of what you guys do at Crooked in terms of your strategy is not just podcasting, but branching out into books yourself and YouTube as well.
So it's important to reach people where they are. It's also just personally, it has been a dream of mine for my entire life to actually publish a book.
I was an English major in college. So the book is like the top of the mountain here.
So a big theme of your book is the lessons the Democrats can learn from operating in this sort of unbalanced political landscape where Republicans are constantly lying, spreading misinformation, tough field for Democrats to play on. What's your take on how Democrats can sort of balance the field? I think the most important thing is not to confer all of our all the legitimacy onto the mainstream media as if they're advocating for us.
I mean, they are so not on our team that they bend over backwards to show deference to Republicans. I mean, there were, I think, something like 69 Hillary's email stories in the lead up to the 2016 election.
And so like, these are people who are not only not on our team, but they're broadcasting that they're not on our team. And yet we have independent progressive media like Crooked Media, like what I do, and like so many others in this space who are showing that we are willing and able to pick up the mantle for where the media is dropping the ball.
And we have to be able to be able to combat what the right has done. I mean, from the days of Rush Limbaugh all the way to today with Fox News and OAN and Newsmax and Daily Wire and just the vast ecosystem of the right, we have to be able to push back.
And by relying solely or only legitimizing mainstream media sources, we're not going to get there. Yeah.
I don't even think that they should be on our team because they're like, look, it's their job is to report the news. Their job is not to help Democrats win elections.
And I mean, one of the reasons we started Quick Media was not even like a frustration with the mainstream media, but just like, you know, people are getting their information from different sources. People have like strong opinions about politics.
And if you have strong opinions about politics, like, you know, decades ago, you would like join your local Democratic committee, right? But now people get their information on their phones and it's good to have sort of a community to go to. Is that how you think of your YouTube? Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, we're so lucky right now to be able to reach people instantly, to get instant feedback and to have an actual connection with people. And I can see what resonates.
By the way, as a content creator, I can see what resonates with people, what messages are working, what messengers are working. I can see who my audience wants to hear from.
I can see who my audience is deathly bored from hearing from. And I won't name any names, but there are people out there in the Democratic Party.
And we have that advantage, especially from a persuasion perspective, that we need to know what works and what doesn't work. And having the internet at our fingertips and having those analytics at our fingertips helps us do exactly that.
What messages have been working lately? Well, right now, I think it's been great to watch the whole weirdness narrative set in because for so long, it's kind of been bizarre that we haven't been able to land on that. And it is so weird.
And it seems so obvious in retrospect now that these people are so obsessed with everybody else's lives that they're trying to insert themselves between a woman and her doctor, insert themselves between where Americans can travel, insert themselves between what Americans can read and what they get. I mean, the whole thing is just so weird.
And like now that we finally landed on it and because we have a growing progressive media ecosystem and these campaigns are strong, that message is able to actually resonate. Whereas before the left-wing media ecosystem kind of just felt like scattershot attempts at trying to make something stick and it never really did.
And it always felt like Republicans went into the morning meeting every day and they came out with their talking points and they were always so organized. And to finally see the tables be turned and it's actually the left that's better organized while the Republicans are dissembling and figuring out whether they're going to hammer away at Trump's message of killer windmills or hammer away at Trump's message of imaginary cannibals or hammer away at sharks or whatever it is has been great to see.
We've all been coconut-pilled here. We've all been walls-pilled.
We've taken all the pills. How are you feeling about the election now, now that we are in this just crazy, crazy moment where three weeks ago we had an entirely different Democratic nominee, entirely different Democratic ticket.
It feels so weird to feel hope. Like as a Democrat, the last like decade, hope has been so fleeting.
And, you know, you find what moments you can few and far in between. But look, obviously, we have to be vigilant as we head toward November.
But I think at the the same time we can kind of enjoy the moment that we're in. And I think that it couldn't be going better right now, which as a Democrat is a very foreign concept.
Knock on all the wood. Knock on all the wood.
A very foreign concept to me, but it could not be going better than it is right now. And the fact that Trump is falling apart to the extent that he is right now has been a testament to that, I think.
And even with this debate stuff has put it especially into particular focus because Donald Trump's whole shtick thus far has been that he's a strong man, right? That he's tough. And he's not particularly adept at policy or domestic policy like domestic policy, foreign policy.
He's not a good speaker. He's not good at governing.
He's not good at managing people. But what he had was the toughness, the strongman vibes.
And when he refused to debate Kamala Harris on September 10th for ABC News, and the Harris campaign leaned in on this,. And that kind of enveloped the narrative for days and days and days.
It showed that she took away the last thing that he had left. And what he was left looking like was just deflated and defeated and weak.
And I know that you guys talk about this a lot. And this is especially, you know, Dan Pfeiffer's focus here with MessageBox and whatnot.
But like, our job is not to always point out that Trump is trying to be a strong man, because that actually plays into his hands. It's that, in fact, he's weak.
And this was the first time that was really, really put on full display to the extent that the entire country was able to see it. Yeah, he doesn't love being mocked either, as most strong men do not.
Before we go, one of my favorite anecdotes comes near the end of the book. It's about how you convinced your mother, who never had any interest in politics and believed the entire system was corrupt, to vote for the first time in 60 years during the 2020 election.
Not only that, she voted for Joe Biden and Democrats down ballot. But what advice would you give listeners who want to encourage someone in their life who might be cynical about politics or skeptical about politics to go out there and vote? So the story I like to tell is actually about Wisconsin.
And Wisconsin's oftentimes the tipping point state. In 2020, the difference between a Biden win and a Trump win was two votes per precinct.
That's it. And so if you're looking for a proof point that we have agency here, it's that all it would have taken for Donald Trump to win Wisconsin in 2020, the tipping point state would be flipping two people per precinct.
And everybody has somebody in their lives who doesn't vote. When I asked my sister, I think it was in 2018, when there was the gubernatorial race, if she was voting for governor, her response was, what's a governor? And if somebody in my family can be at that position, then I know that there are people listening and watching who have those people in their lives, too.
So look, I'm not asking everybody to do everything, but we are asking everybody to do something. And in that case, you know, it's just a matter of finding

one or two people in your lives

who wouldn't otherwise be able to,

you know, wouldn't think that it was worth it,

that it would have any impact

to participate in this election

and make those people your responsibility.

You want to stick around

for a game of Take Appreciator?

Let's do it.

I think we're doing the blind ranking test.

Let's do it.

We're going to be right back with Lovett to play a game. And we're back.
Hi. Hi.
I'm John Lovett. I'm here because we're going to play a game.
Yeah, we are. So welcome.
So welcome to Blind Take Rankings. Here's how it works.
I'm going to read you five takes. pretty shameless takes if you ask me.
Oh. See what you did there.
Brian and John, you must rank these takes from least egregious to most egregious. So five is the least egregious, one is the most egregious.
Here's the catch. You must rank the takes as they come, and you don't know what's coming next.
So try not to use that number one spot too early. Mm-hmm.
All right. Are you ready? Let's do it.
All right. So ready.
Take number one, and here it is. Tim Walls is an MSNBC anchor's idea of a folksy politician who can appeal to middle America.
Quite a take about a man who tricked us into believing he wasn't a coastal elite by being born in Nebraska and grazing a family, coaching a team and serving the country in Minnesota.

Just playing that long game, you know?

Yeah.

What makes this even more egregious is I think it was written by a writer

for the National Review.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, Rich Lowry is just a real.

They both know the take.

I know.

I mean, come on.

Elijah's like, oh, that's an easy one.

You can tell.

It's not about guess the take.

It's about ranking the take.

I know.

Sometimes we just like to show off our knowledge.

I know.

And it's impressive.

It's impressive.

I'm going to give it a four.

Yeah.

Wow.

I think we're in agreement here.

It's not that.

It's kind of a lazy.

It's kind of a reach.

It's kind of a lazy.

Also, and I'm stealing this from someone else, but you know who's MSNBC's idea of.

No, what was it again?

An MSNBC anchors idea of a folksy politician who can appeal to medical America. He's going to say J.D.
Vance. J.D.
Vance, yeah. Someone giving that a...
I would say three for that one. I'm giving it a five because I feel like they did such a poor job of trying to have a really, like to piss you off with a take.
It doesn't even piss me off. It's just stupid.
I would agree with that. I think this is something that Trump is trying to shoehorn into the narrative, that Republicans are trying to shoehorn into the narrative.
First of all, to undermine the whole coup narrative.

It's like, well, you think we did a coup?

That's a coup.

But it's also like, we're good.

We're fine.

It's them who are mad about everything.

That's why they're so mad.

They're mad that we're so happy.

They hate to see us happy.

They hate to see us happy.

They don't want to see us in a ray.

They don't want to see us in a ray.

So I needed an agreement here.

Three or five? I'd say five. Okay.
We're saying five. We're saying five.
That was Bill Ackman. Bill Ackman.
He spoke at the Republican National Convention. I know that I might have bumped it up to a three.
Next up, this is a headline. Here it is.
Democrats could regret calling Trump and his supporters weird. Could regret it.
Could come to regret it. I'll read you a passage from the op-ed.
I don't know what is sufficient for Harris to win, but I sure know what is necessary. A message that is dignity affirming for working class Americans, not dignity destroying.
Oh. If this is a campaign that descends into name-calling, no one beats Trump in that arena.

Two, two, two.

I agree with that.

That is getting a two.

These are one of these takes that comes in a vacuum.

They haven't been around or awake for the last eight years,

and all of a sudden it's the Hillary Clinton,

or it's the Michelle Obama when they go low.

Yes. Well, dignity affirming when they go low.
Yes.

Dignity affirming.

Much like J.D. Vance and Donald Trump.

The whole tack was that they're out there using their voice for workers.

Was that what it was?

I think it was more of a they go low situation.

And that comes from Thomas Friedman.

Thomas Friedman. That's right.
Of course it does tough take of course it does tough take heard that one in an uber it's also it's also like in jakarta it's also it's also just like the kind of thing where it's like you know that thing that seems to be um making republicans insane while delighting every Democrat from Joe Manchin AOC? I don't think it's working. All right.
Also, like, they're going to regret calling them weird. What skeletons are in our closet that haven't come out yet that would make all of a sudden Kamala Harris and Tim Wall seem weird relative to someone like J.D.
Vance and Donald Trump? Also, we may lose this election. If we do, I'm not going to go back and be like, it was weird that we shouldn't have done that.
No. No.
It was not picking Josh Shapiro. Just kidding, everybody.
You know where my head's at. You know where my head's at.
Next up, this is a short one again, just a take, not a headline. It's in response to the Wall's pick.
The quote is, no Jews allowed at the top of the Democratic Party. Quite a take.
What do we have left? We have one and three, I think. One and three.
I think it's one and three. We have one and three.
I feel like it's got to be three. Yeah, I would agree with that.
Also, like no Jews at the Democratic Party. I think Chuck Schumer even quote tweeted that when Chuck Schumer is dunking on you.
It's a good dunk. Yeah.
He Chuck Schumer saw that bagel fell right out of his mouth. I can say that.
That's allowed. Also, he saw that.
He saw that it was like, we got to get tweeting before Doug Emhoff does it first. Yeah.
Cause there's a little, a little, a little friendly rivalry there. Who's the, and if it wasn't Saturday, really at the top of the, and if it wasn And if it wasn't Saturday, Josh Shapiro could have been at it, too, because he's, I guess, no, not top.
He's not top of the party. Not top.
Remember when there was that article... Second gentleman versus Senate Majority Leader.
To your dismay. Chuck probably wins that one, but...
Yeah, no, for sure. For sure.
Well, there was that article. Yeah, there was a profile.
There was a profile of Doug that... Although, you know what? Doug's moving up.
Well, if Doug's first gentleman.

First gentleman.

First gentleman

versus Senate Majority Leader.

You know,

it's got the president's ear.

You know?

It's a powerful,

powerful job.

Edith Wilson

around the country.

Much like Jill

is doing today.

Jesus Christ.

What?

It's over.

Next take.

You and Christy Jackson

still fighting the wars.

If walls,

just kidding, everybody.

It was... What? It's over.
You and Christy Jackson still fighting the wars.

If Walls, just kidding, everybody.

If Walls is running against Obama, he'd totally do a birth certificate joke.

At no time in living memory has there been any such thing as going lower than Democrats are willing to go.

It's not possible.

Wait, wait.

What? This is about the couch. Is it about the couch joke.
Can't go lower than that. That is the lowest.
That is the bottom. I'm so glad we saved one.
I'm so glad. I feel so good about this.
But you said the birth certificate thing, right? That was part of it? Yes. So the example that they use is literally an example that they use.
And is worse. And is worse.
That's a good point. That's a good point.
Philosoph philosophically he's saying democrats could not go lower than this it is equivalent of the things republicans do that's such a good point here's what's driving me i have not talked about this yet like the the the couch joke complaints if tim wallace had got up there and and was given a riff and said something about a couch and be like you heard about the couch right you heard about jd v J.D. Vance and the couch? J.D.
Vance fucked a couch. Oh, yeah, or even like insinuated that he did.
That would be one thing. I still think it was a funny, but like we could at least have that debate.
He just, he just, he said a word that was like a signal to a certain group of very online people, us, with the couch. And like, that's it.
The fact that they got so mad is also telling on themselves. But he didn't spread the disinformation.
He just nodded to a joke that's out there. And it was smart because if you didn't know the joke, it would still work.
It just sounds like he's lazy. If you didn't know, he was not spreading any kind of misinformation or disinformation because if you hadn't heard it, you would have had no fucking idea what he was talking about.
And it still makes sense. You're just saying, the guy must be on his couch hanging out.

And I think the reason it drove them so crazy

is because if somebody doesn't understand it

and hasn't heard it,

to explain it,

you sound unhinged.

And you have to.

Someone made up a story about the J.D. Vance

fucking a couch.

So he said,

he talked about him getting up off a couch.

I think the reason that it hurts so much. Are you upset yet? That get you angry? The reason it hurts so much, too, is, yes, it's not true.
But like the fact that so many people believed it could be is a pretty poor reflection on J.D. Vance.
But it's like, yeah, of course, Democrats shouldn't also spread disinformation, right? Like everyone's like, whoa, now you think you know, we shouldn't. That's not what he did.
That's not what he did. Yeah, I mean, look, the fact that J.D.
Vance was born in Canada is not even something we've been bringing up. No, no.
We've been very... We've been...
We'll let them fight that out. Yeah, that's their...
We're not gonna... That's their business.
I don't know that for a fact. Maybe Trump will drop him from the ticket when he finds out.
Don't say that too much. I don't actually want it to happen.
Well, let's do a, let's, so that's it. Did anybody, did any of the many people in this room keep track of the rankings? Anybody? Did a single person in here, I see four laptops.
Did anybody type out the order? I think I remember. I think I remember.
Okay. Number one.
No, we start with five. Okay.
Well, I'm just trying to go with my fucking memory. The fifth was your first.
You said folksy. No, no, no.
That was. No.
Okay. In fifth, you said the concern trolling was fifth.
Tim Walls being a folksy politician in the minds of an MSNBC anchor was fourth. Democrats could regret calling Trump into support was weird.
That's two. That was two no jews allowed at the top of the democratic party three three and number one nice job number one democrats can never sink lower than this couch illusion it's the democratic equivalent of a joke republicans constantly make and that's gonna be number one i'm totally fine with that list that's's exactly what I would have done.
That's a good list. Hey, everyone.
Go buy Shameless. Go buy Shameless.
Brian's book. Please go buy the book.
You can get it anywhere books are sold. Anywhere you get your books online.
That's right. Or in real life.
August 13th. August 13th is out, but it's available for pre-order now.
All right. Help our buddy Brian out.
Thanks for coming by. Love it.
Thanks for that fantastic game. What a delight.
Thanks to Elijah on the ones and twos. Everyone have a great weekend.
We'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.
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Reed Cherlin is our executive editor and Adrian Hill is our executive producer. The show is mixed with Thank you.
of news and programming. Matt DeGroat is our head of production.
Andy Taft is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Phoebe Bradford, Joseph Dutra, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kirill Pellaviv, and David Toles.
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