Fear and Unity in Milwaukee

Transcript

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Speaker 12 Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm John Favreau.
I'm I'm John Levitt. I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
I'm Tommy Beeswar.

Speaker 12 On today's show, the Republican Convention wraps up its second night with a parade of former Trump critics and opponents bending the knee to their MAGA god.

Speaker 12 Trump tries to get RFK Jr.'s endorsement with some anti-vax pandering in a leaked video of the two men chatting.

Speaker 12 The Trump campaign now thinks they can put states like New Jersey and Maine in play, and the effort to convince Joe Biden to step aside appears to be coming back to life in response to the DNC's plan to officially nominate the president as early as next week.

Speaker 12 But let's start with day two at the Republican convention, where the theme was making people afraid of immigrants and making former Trump opponents compete to see who could get their head the farthest up his ass.

Speaker 12 We'll let you be the judge. Here's some of what was said by Ron DeSantis, Vivek Ramaswamy, Ted Cruz, and Nikki Haley.

Speaker 13 My fellow Republicans,

Speaker 13 let's send Joe Biden back to his basement and let's send Donald Trump back to the White House.

Speaker 14 If you want to make America great again, vote Trump. God bless Donald J.
Trump.

Speaker 5 Donald Trump has my strong endorsement, period.

Speaker 12 All right. Under the heading of we watch the convention so you don't have to, did you guys see or hear anything notable from the stage tonight? Tommy, let's start with you.

Speaker 15 Jim Justice, the governor of West Virginia, brought his dog out.

Speaker 12 Really?

Speaker 15 Baby Dog Justice.

Speaker 12 Interesting that he brought the dog out the night after Christy Noam spoke. Yes.

Speaker 12 You're the first person to make that joke today. You know what?

Speaker 12 I've been trying to fucking dancelam. I've been trying to dance lamb.

Speaker 12 I've been trying to produce the show. I didn't even know.
I didn't even know that was a fucking joke. It was a good joke.

Speaker 15 I was also reminded that Vivek Ramaswamy is a person who exists and he has a repellent personality. That came out today.

Speaker 16 Jim Justice has the kind of...

Speaker 12 We're going all in on the Jim Justice speech speech analysis, huh? It was the most interesting by far. It went crazy for the dog.

Speaker 16 Yes, everything else was pretty boring on stage. He has the kind of demeanor of the villain in a Matlock episode where

Speaker 12 somewhere Joe Biden gets

Speaker 12 around the cultural pulse.

Speaker 12 I just want to say, I think ideology, partisanship aside, the speeches are so bad. Boring.
It's very boring. So bad.
Paint by numbers. It's just like,

Speaker 12 I don't know, can people give a good speech anymore? There's like, it's all recycled lines, all cliches, all shit that you've heard before.

Speaker 16 Not like the music back in our day.

Speaker 12 They knew what rock and roll was back then.

Speaker 12 Even like,

Speaker 12 even like George W. Bush could give a good speech back in the day.
Nikki Haley came like maybe the closest to giving an okay speech.

Speaker 12 Eh, is right. You guys are out of the office.

Speaker 15 Dan and I watched Carrie Lake. She did a much more muted version of herself.
Everything was a little toned down.

Speaker 15 You know, the previewing that it would be less crazy, this convention, than the last one, has been true so far.

Speaker 12 Her rhetoric is now sepia-toned, is what I would say.

Speaker 16 Yes. Yeah, her rhetoric has been, they're shooting the rhetoric through the gauze.

Speaker 12 I mean, they did have placards that were saying like Biden border bloodbath. And they're, you know, they used the term weekend at Bernie's presidency.
They did.

Speaker 12 Well, that's, I mean, I'm talking about like

Speaker 12 sort of violence, right? Like, they also

Speaker 12 talked about, Ted Cruz did a whole thing that basically said Democrats purposely released undocumented immigrants who went on to commit rape and murder because they wanted their votes.

Speaker 12 So they all did the replacement theory.

Speaker 12 So that stuff was not very toned down.

Speaker 16 Yeah, and then also just like the

Speaker 16 just Elise Stefanik getting up there and talking about the Biden crime wave.

Speaker 16 And it's like, you know, we all know that crime has been going down since it peaked in 2020, but you wouldn't know it by watching it. But it almost seems like beside the the point.

Speaker 12 I mean, it was interesting that Donald Trump was in the arena again to watch

Speaker 12 just sitting up there like someone wanna be Roman Empire just watching his former yeah, he wanted to thumbs down Ron DeSantis.

Speaker 12 He enjoys nothing more than watching people just discredit themselves for him. Yeah, Nikki Haley finished speaking and he stood up and he said, Give it up for Birdbrain.
Give it up for Birdbrain.

Speaker 12 Everyone loves it.

Speaker 16 It's sort of

Speaker 12 tiny. Let's hear it for Tiny D.

Speaker 16 It's a conflict, right? Because he enjoys people

Speaker 16 supplicating themselves before him, but he is also quite bored because he has to pay attention. So that was a struggle.
The most interesting moments were

Speaker 16 offstage. One was Matt Gaetz harassing Kevin McCarthy and then a bystander harassing Matt Gates and calling him an asshole.

Speaker 16 And then Matt Gaetz turns and faces that guy and goes, I don't even know who you are. And that guy's like, I don't care if you know who I am.
You're an asshole.

Speaker 16 And Matt Gaetz just walks away with it, with his, sort of defeated by it, which I loved. Good hit.
And then Rudy Giuliani got into a fight with a row of folding chairs and lost. You see this?

Speaker 16 He kind of just careened over a set of folding chairs. They're for the grace of God.

Speaker 12 Well, that's sure.

Speaker 16 But

Speaker 16 I felt bad for you. You see it.
Did you? It wasn't just that he fell over. It was how long it took them to get him back up.

Speaker 16 And I've, ever since he told someone at Mar-a-Lago, and it was overheard by Page Six, that he feels as though he's trapped in a living nightmare.

Speaker 12 I feel bad for him. Yeah, well, join the club, Rudy.

Speaker 12 Let's talk about Nikki Haley's speech. So, first of all, she got cheers.
No booze for Nikki Haley.

Speaker 12 She started off by saying, Donald Trump has my strong endorsement, period, which, you know, she had obviously said before that she was voting for him. It was not a full-throated endorsement before.

Speaker 12 So now she has decided to just leave it all behind.

Speaker 12 She's back. She's back.
She said, you don't have to agree with Trump 100% of the time to vote for him. We must expand our party.

Speaker 12 Certainly the only speaker so far at the convention that has said anything like that.

Speaker 12 Will anyone care? Will any swing voters tune in and hear that? What do you think, Ted? No, I don't think they will tune in. I don't think they care.
And

Speaker 12 Nikki Haley speaking at this convention is not Hillary Clinton speaking in the 2008 convention. It is not Bernie Sanders speaking in the 2016 convention.

Speaker 12 Nikki Haley is nothing more than a basically generic vessel for anti-Trump Republicans. They don't care about Nikki Haley.
They don't Nikki Haley signs in their yard.

Speaker 12 They don't Nikki Haley bumper stickers. Many of them can't pick her out of a lineup.

Speaker 12 Many of them voted, didn't even know she had dropped out of the race when they voted for her. A lot of them voted after she'd already dropped out.
It was just a protest vote. Yeah.

Speaker 12 The whole the narrative of like what will happen with the Nikki Haley voters, like they'll probably vote for Joe Biden again like they did in 2020. We hope.
Right, yeah, yeah. That's

Speaker 12 like

Speaker 12 they are still a persuasion target, but their affiliation with Nikki Haley tells you nothing about them. Right.

Speaker 12 It's not like she has a hold on a section of the party like a Bernie Sanders did, like a Hillary Clinton did in 08.

Speaker 16 I think that goes to why the speeches feel so ineffective more broadly. Even that statement, like I'm, he has my strong endorsement, period, as if she's saying that in defiance of some

Speaker 16 media campaign to say that she hasn't endorsed him. Well, she hasn't, right? She hadn't actually endorsed him.
It was an open question as to whether she would. She did dodge it for a long time.

Speaker 16 And there's a way in which both her and DeSantis and Ted Cruz, they're performing this version of themselves that is just so completely phony.

Speaker 16 And it leads to them with these kind of grandiose, overwritten speeches that all feel pretty empty.

Speaker 16 Because

Speaker 16 none of them are saying what they really think.

Speaker 16 They're putting on a show for

Speaker 15 Java.

Speaker 15 Yeah,

Speaker 15 all I could think when I saw Ron DeSantis come out was he might be the biggest loser of the JD Vance pick in terms of people getting leapfrogged

Speaker 16 for next up to be.

Speaker 12 Well, and his speech is just,

Speaker 12 he is not cut out for this. He's not cut out

Speaker 12 for the big stage. Like a bunch of lines.

Speaker 12 You can tell that, like, some consultants or advisors or speechwriters wrote him, like, you know, he did our, our enemies don't consign their designs to between 10 a.m. and 4 p.m., right?

Speaker 12 America can't afford four more years of a weekend at Bernie's presidency, right? So he did that. But he's like, his voice, still with the voice, too fast, too annoying, too yelly.

Speaker 12 He's yelling the whole time. He's a little sweaty.
He's just not.

Speaker 12 He doesn't have it.

Speaker 12 The one thing I thought watching this convention is they are so lucky that they have Donald Trump because so far, there's not one other Republican that's taken the stage that you're like, oh, I'm worried about that person.

Speaker 12 That person has gravitas. Like, they just, it just,

Speaker 12 no one has it. Yeah.
In fairness, we left right as Eric Schmidt started speaking. The

Speaker 12 heretofore unknown senator from Missouri. Not the Google guy.
Who was like, who was like, my presence on this stage is unlikely. I'm a tall white guy from Missouri.
It's like,

Speaker 12 what are you talking about?

Speaker 16 This spot has been held for you.

Speaker 12 It's the likeliest presence of anyone. All right.
So another group getting speaking slots today were the Republican Senate candidates and key races.

Speaker 12 We have talked a lot about Democratic Senate candidates and how they're all polling ahead of Biden.

Speaker 12 But it also seems like the Republican Senate candidates in these swing states are polling behind Trump. Dan, what do you think is going on there?

Speaker 12 In most cases, they are polling behind Trump because they are thoroughly unknown. Yeah.
Right, right.

Speaker 12 Eric Hovedy, is that how you say his last name? In Wisconsin, Sam Brown in Nevada. David Cormick, a little more well-known because he he at least had run the Republican primary, but they're just.

Speaker 12 He lost once already. So he's.

Speaker 12 They don't have any real name ID. And so there are a couple of different ways to look at these races, right?

Speaker 12 You have a handful of incumbent Democrats like Sherrod Brown, John Tester, Tammy Baldwin, Bob Casey, who have independent, strong brands, and they are running well ahead of Biden.

Speaker 12 Their coalitions look much like a traditional Democratic coalition. They don't have Biden's same struggles with young voters or independent voters or black voters or Latino voters, whatever else.

Speaker 12 They look like a 2020 Democrat. Then you have Jackie Rosen in Nevada and Alyssa Slotkin, who is running for an open seat in Michigan, who are basically running against New York Democrats, right?

Speaker 12 Jackie Rosen, not well-known. They are still pulling ahead of the Republican candidates, but they are pulling at about Biden's level, right? Their top line number is in the low 40s.

Speaker 12 There is a poll out today, which has one poll that has Slotkin up in the high 40s, but that's the first one I've seen like that.

Speaker 12 And then you have the Arizona Senate race, which is unique because Ruben Gago, who's not super well-known, but he is running against Carrie Lake, who's incredibly well-known and incredibly unpopular.

Speaker 12 And so she's sort of functioning as the incumbent and anti-incumbent race there. And so there's a bunch of different things happening there.

Speaker 12 There's reasons in some of those incumbent races to have hope for Democrats, no matter what happens at the top of the ticket.

Speaker 12 Where you have a lesser-known Democrat, that's where there could be drag if Biden doesn't perform strongly in those states.

Speaker 12 And you would imagine that once the Trump campaign and Republicans really start spending money in some of these Senate races on TV, that like at least Trump's number in these states is achievable for a lot of these Republican Senate candidates who aren't like a Carrie Lake, right, who is well-known and crazy, but some of these who are just, you know, the Republicans did a decent job getting the,

Speaker 12 I won't, they're all, they're still pretty crazy.

Speaker 12 They're still pretty extreme, a lot of these Republican Senate candidates, but they didn't do a 2022, they're more generic than they have been in the past.

Speaker 15 And it's worth remembering that in the states that are swing states in the presidential, Joe Biden has been on TV fairly heavily, and Donald Trump has not.

Speaker 12 So tonight's theme was making America safe once again. We're doing once.
We haven't talked about this yet.

Speaker 12 Everything is making America wealthy once again, making America safe once again, making America great once again. I think you don't need the once.
You could have gone Make America Great again, again.

Speaker 16 They tried that.

Speaker 12 It felt

Speaker 12 like

Speaker 12 that was that. Yeah.
No, what was 2020?

Speaker 16 I think that

Speaker 12 Keep America Great.

Speaker 12 He did roll out Make America Great Again and

Speaker 12 CAG.

Speaker 12 Keep America Great Again, but she'll be a good idea. No, it was just CAG, right? Just CAG.

Speaker 12 So tonight's theme featured a bunch of, quote, everyday Americans talking about things like immigration and crime. It

Speaker 12 got really dark and awful. How persuasive do you guys think that was for voters beyond the MAGA base?

Speaker 12 Ted Cruz took a lot of this, right?

Speaker 12 He kept doing every damn day, and then he would tell another story of someone who was murdered by an undocumented immigrant.

Speaker 15 Tommy? Well, it's a grisly crime stories are a feature of most Donald Trump events. I'm not totally sure how effective they were tonight.
It's worth noting just for context.

Speaker 15 I mean, in November of 2023, there was some polling on this, I think, from Gallup, that found 77% of Americans said they believe there was more crime in the U.S.

Speaker 15 than a year ago, including 55% who said the same about their local area. So it was a national issue in their mind and a local issue.

Speaker 15 Now, again, since 2002, that annual poll has found that a majority of Americans think crime is on the rise every year, even when it's falling, usually sort of in the 60% level or not.

Speaker 15 So it's not clear to me how much of a vote driver crime will be this year as opposed to every year. It may be that we Americans just always think crime is a problem and on the rise.

Speaker 15 In reality, violent crime has decreased year over year, but those statistics aren't as lurid as the stories you were hearing out of someone like Ted Cruz.

Speaker 15 So I just, I don't know how salient the issue is compared to a year ago or two years ago when crime really spiked.

Speaker 12 I mean, the rubric that Donald Trump wants in this race is strong versus weak. And that only works if people are scared, right?

Speaker 12 It's the famous Bill Clinton line about someone, you would rather have someone strong and wrong than right and weak. And

Speaker 12 that works when people are scared and insecure and afraid. So you have to gin up fear, right?

Speaker 12 It's basically the entire reason that Fox News exists is to scare the living shit out of people that a terrorist, an immigrant, some other person is going to come to your community and your family is at risk so that you will then put aside other things you may care about, like higher minimum wage, a more fair tax system, access to abortion in order to vote for the candidate you think,

Speaker 12 multiple criminal convictions to vote for the candidate that you think will keep you safe.

Speaker 12 Fear and unity.

Speaker 12 Those are the themes. That's actually basically

Speaker 12 fascism. Right, that's what I say.
So unity for us and then be afraid of the people who aren't like us. And to your point, minimum wage, abortion, those issues haven't really made an appearance.

Speaker 12 You don't hear about those a lot at this convention. So they have done, I mean,

Speaker 12 boiling it down to just strong versus weak, it also reveals like there's, did you hear anyone talking about like policy, what Donald Trump's going to do, what to do about the immigration, broken immigration system, what to do about inflation last night?

Speaker 12 No, it's just like Donald Trump is strong. He will get in there and things will be better.
We heard some build the wall chants.

Speaker 16 Yeah, there was some talk of mass deportations, right? Yeah, but

Speaker 12 not a lot of solutions from this crowd. I would just say watching this for two days now,

Speaker 12 one, I want to apologize to myself for that, but is this is a party that desperately wants to win. Oh, yeah.
They are on script.

Speaker 12 Like the uni thinks mostly bullshit, but they have tempered the crazy from like a 15 to like a seven. I don't think I've heard a single thing about the 2020 election in any of these speeches.

Speaker 15 Me either.

Speaker 12 Right. They know that is a massive vulnerability for Trump, and they are not talking about it.
Like they want to win. Donald Trump wants to win and stay out of jail.

Speaker 12 And that sort of discipline is throughout the speaker lineup here. As boring and lame as many speeches are, they are not doing damage to the effort to elect Trump.
Right.

Speaker 12 Yeah, like I don't know necessarily that they're moving voters to their side, but you're right that they're not doing any damage because to the extent that they're saying crazy stuff, which they all are in their speeches, it's all language and rhetoric that we've heard before from them.

Speaker 12 It's not anything new and extreme or new and right. Like it's all sort of warmed over crazy.

Speaker 16 Well, they feel like they're winning.

Speaker 16 and that's pretty unifying. Nothing brings a team together.
Like a feeling like they're winning.

Speaker 16 There have been a bunch of reporting from different places about reporters being surprised by just the feeling of being on the ground in Milwaukee, that they expected a kind of darker, scarier version of Republican politics.

Speaker 16 But after the assassination attempt, given how poorly Joe Biden is performing and the fact that the polls look so good for him in these swing states, it's a joyous affair.

Speaker 16 They're having a fucking blast.

Speaker 12 Well, we'll be the judge of that because we'll be there tomorrow. Yeah, we will.

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Speaker 12 Speaking of polling, here's some interesting convention news.

Speaker 12 Politico reported that on Tuesday afternoon, Trump pollster Tony Fabrizio talked with the Florida delegation about just how good the campaign thinks the map looks for them.

Speaker 12 Fabrizio said that the Sunbelt states are locked up for Trump, Arizona, Nevada, Georgia, North Carolina, and Florida.

Speaker 12 But he also said that they now think Minnesota, Virginia, New Mexico, and New Jersey are toss-ups. He claimed that the campaign might even make a play for Maine.

Speaker 12 Fabrizio also reportedly bragged that the campaign is this competitive without having done much in the way of TV ads, which is true. And he said, quote, get ready, they're coming.

Speaker 12 How much of this, Dan, do you attribute to Trump world cockiness? And how much of it do you think is real?

Speaker 12 It's not Trump World cockiness. Like, there is a strain of thought in Republican politics that goes back to Leatwater, which is you should always look like you're winning, right?

Speaker 12 It is a theory, it is a wisdom of crowds approach to politics. It's why Bush sent Cheney to Hawaii in 2004, right? To make it look like you're winning.
You're always on offense.

Speaker 16 I do remember that. And I also claim New Jersey was in play.

Speaker 12 Yep. And we're probably going to claim New Jersey in play in every election.
And who knows? I don't know if it is here or not, but it's worth remembering that Phil Murphy barely beat a

Speaker 12 heretofore unknown truck driver, I think, new to politics in the 2021 Gubernatorial race.

Speaker 12 i don't want to like depress people or scare people but what tony fabrizio was saying about new mexico maine virginia is showing up in private polls that democrats are passing around everywhere yeah yeah we haven't talked about martin heinrich who's the democratic senator from new mexico and

Speaker 12 people associated with their they're worried

Speaker 12 about his race and it's because joe biden's polling so poorly there you look at all the polls we can debate the size of the the margin and all of these but there is a consistent theme which is that biden struggles with a certain number of groups Black and Latinos, primarily men and younger men, Republican-leading independents, the Trump-Biden voters, and young voters.

Speaker 12 And the states that we're talking about here are ones that over-index on a lot of those groups.

Speaker 12 It's why Virginia is in play, even though the reason that it turned Democratic for Barack Obama in 2008 and became a safe Democratic state years after that are the same reason that Joe Biden is struggling with it because of the demographic change in that state, which used to benefit Democrats and is now hurting us if

Speaker 12 Biden continues to struggle with those groups.

Speaker 12 Do you think Democrats will have to spend money to defend some of these states like New Mexico, Minnesota?

Speaker 12 We shouldn't.

Speaker 15 I mean, if we do, it's a huge deal. Yeah.
That's what folks need to understand is there's not unlimited money out there. You're budgeting.

Speaker 15 You're budgeting for really expensive ad spends in a lot of major cities. And all of a sudden, if you're putting ads on air in Washington, D.C.
or the Twin Cities, like...

Speaker 15 That is going to impact everything else you do.

Speaker 12 You can't. Right.

Speaker 12 I may be the only person who will remember this, but in 2012, when we were running for re-election,

Speaker 12 we knew we were going to be massively outspent by the right because it was the first post-Citizens United presidential campaign, and the right had raised hundreds of millions of dollars in super PACs.

Speaker 12 We did not have that apparatus. So we knew the Republicans would outspend the Democratic side.

Speaker 12 And so Plough and Axelod and others made the decision that we were not going to run ads in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin.

Speaker 12 Because if we, because we had, to get to 270, we had to get Ohio and Virginia. Oh, yeah.
And there's no way the states are correlated. And so if you are losing Pennsylvania, you're not winning Ohio.

Speaker 12 And so in order to husband our resources so that we could compete in these states, including Florida, which was a big important state for us, we said we were not going to spend money in the states.

Speaker 12 And we did not do that other than one brief period of time when we had to go up in either Michigan or Wisconsin at the very end briefly.

Speaker 12 And so if you're in the Biden land, you can't afford to be in all those states. So you're going to have to.

Speaker 12 You got to spend all your money on the Blue Wall states because that seems to be a lot of money. Look, if you were losing

Speaker 12 Nebraska, right? If you were losing Maine or Virginia or New Mexico, you're winning nowhere.

Speaker 16 Look, ads don't just fall out of a coconut tree. They exist in the context of all that came before.

Speaker 12 But no,

Speaker 16 if we are talking about spending money in those places, we are talking about Senate candidates and House candidates who are running away from Joe Biden. and trying to save themselves.

Speaker 16 We are talking about Joe Biden, after having spent tens of millions in ads that haven't seemed to change the dynamic in this race, suddenly facing an influence of Trump money, tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars in money from Trump's backers.

Speaker 16 There's been story after story in the past couple of days of all of these people from Elon Musk on down deciding they're going to pour money into this race.

Speaker 16 So, you know, if we're talking about the Biden campaign, whether or not they should be spending in Virginia, we're talking about senators everywhere desperately trying to save themselves and running away from the Democratic ticket and saying how they will be a check on Trump.

Speaker 12 Like that's the world we'll be living in in the fall. And these things sometimes change over the summer, right?

Speaker 12 A lot of these states that are traditionally Democratic-Republican revert back to the mean as more people tune into the race, right, in that undecided pool.

Speaker 12 So we may be just like Trump may certainly outperform his 2020 members in all of these states, and Biden might still win all of them. And by the way,

Speaker 12 I'm not comfortable with that.

Speaker 16 Just to be clear, I'm describing a scenario. I'm not claiming it as what's happening.

Speaker 12 So Trump's apparently feeling confident enough that he took a crack at getting RFK Jr. to endorse him.
The two reportedly met in Milwaukee on Monday.

Speaker 12 Trump also called Kennedy on Sunday, and Kennedy took the call on speakerphone while his in-house videographer, according to Kennedy, was rolling for something else.

Speaker 12 You can hear Trump saying on the call that the bullet going past his ear sounded like, quote, the world's largest mosquito, that he had a nice call with Biden where the president asked him how he managed to duck out of the way.

Speaker 12 Trump also asked for Kennedy's endorsement and then told Kennedy how much he agrees with him on childhood vaccines. Let's listen.

Speaker 21 Remember, I said, I want to do

Speaker 21 And do you ever see the size of it, right? You know, it's this massive.

Speaker 21 And then you see the baby all of a sudden starting to change radically. I've seen it too many times.
And then you hear that it doesn't have an impact, right?

Speaker 21 But you and I talked about that a long time ago and

Speaker 12 is trump like a pediatrician

Speaker 12 he's seen all the times he he watches them get the vaccines then he watches the babies change you know babies 10 pounds 20 pounds just babies look i've i've seen babies by the hogshead dealing with this kind of problems metric tons of baby experiencing these kinds of problems so rfk jr's son posted and then deleted the video with an apology uh the biden campaign put out a statement saying the video is proof that trump can't be trusted to protect Americans' health care.

Speaker 12 Kennedy reportedly declined to drop out and endorse Trump, at least for now. Trump was talking in that same video about like, maybe there's a big job you can do.

Speaker 12 Like he's trying to give him a job, get an endorsement. He's trying to do something here.
Let's start with Trump's anti-vax pandering, which he's also been doing in his stump speech.

Speaker 12 It's not like we needed a secretly recorded video.

Speaker 12 He's out there saying, I'm not giving a penny to any state that has, where schools have any kind of mandates, not just mask mandates, but vaccine mandates or anything.

Speaker 16 Have you interpreted that to not mean COVID vaccine, but for all all vaccines he said it repeatedly he has said it repeatedly he will no vaccine mandates of any kind have to have funding for education get rid of the department of education like that is his position he is not he has not characterized it as covet and i don't think we should do any work for him if he ever sat down just no no no

Speaker 12 i'm mad at the situation

Speaker 12 well if he ever sat down for an interview with a with a reporter that wasn't not like a right-wing reporter maybe they would ask him that if perhaps if he had debated someone who could have brought that up at the debate we could have learned it there too but yeah no he will not He has tried to skate over this by just making it seem like it's COVID vaccines for people like that, but also nodding to and pandering to the anti-vax crowd, which is what he did here on this call with RFK.

Speaker 12 Dangerous, obviously. Also kind of dumb in a general election.
Although, I don't know, what do you guys think to just be out there doing the vaccine, being against all kinds of like childhood vaccine?

Speaker 16 Well, first of all, just my reaction is like, whenever you hear Trump in context where he doesn't think he's being recorded or it's for public consumption, he's just like, I got to call that fucking RFK guy.

Speaker 16 What is he like? Oh, yeah, he's crazy about the vaccine. So I'll just tell him the vaccine thing, see if that works.
Maybe try to get him a job. Just very transactional, very simple.

Speaker 12 Back to that speech where he was like, oh, see, I just talk about tax cuts and no one's clapping. And then I talk about this trans stuff and you're all clapping and applauding.

Speaker 12 That used to never be like that a couple of years ago. I guess I'll keep saying it.

Speaker 12 It's just like, it is the most. Yeah.
It's like pure cynicism. We're losing a lot of people.

Speaker 16 We're losing to a Skinner box.

Speaker 12 He is actually more of a politician than any politician else in America politics. I'm a big outsider.

Speaker 12 No, it's like you know, you just tell any single fucking person exactly what they want to hear, and then you do not deliver in any way, shape, or form. That's it.

Speaker 12 That's like, that is Trump to his core. I think the anti-childhood vaccine stuff is like a marker of extremism for a lot of voters, and so it's good to do.

Speaker 12 It's also just funny, like, what it's like to work on a campaign is like the Biden folks have to put out the same one. They want to just say, it's like, that shit's weird.

Speaker 16 Well, I do think, like, I think it, like, I think the reason Project 2025 took off is that it plays into something we don't often get to play into.

Speaker 16 There is a secret recording of Donald Trump colluding with one of his opponents to try to defeat the Democrats and to take away childhood vaccines from schools.

Speaker 16 Like, I feel like we're not making enough of the secret leaks caught image. It looks bad.
It looks sinister.

Speaker 15 Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, I think the Trump campaign views all of the third-party candidates as tools to help them. They're trying to get Cornell West on the ballot in various states.

Speaker 15 They are clearly colluding with RFK's campaign and having him continue to run because it helps them.

Speaker 15 I think one of someone who, a top person on RFK's campaign, essentially said as much in another leaked video a few weeks back, which is basically like, we're all in this to defeat Joe Biden.

Speaker 15 Now, Robert F.

Speaker 16 Kennedy Jr.

Speaker 15 is a narcissist with a massive ego that wants to promote exactly these insane anti-vaccine views that we are now discussing.

Speaker 15 So win-win for him to stick around and, you know, do Trump's bidding until the time when they deem him no longer useful and maybe he drops out.

Speaker 15 But clearly, he's angling for some sort of elevation of the issues he cares about, some job for himself. I mean, this is working for him.

Speaker 12 How much do you guys think a Kennedy endorsement of Trump would matter, change the race?

Speaker 15 I think it would matter. I actually do.
Like, the Joe Rogans of the world will not have Donald Trump on the show, but he will have RFK Jr., and he believes and trusts Robert F. Kennedy.

Speaker 15 RFK going on that show and endorsing Trump would be a big deal, in my opinion.

Speaker 12 Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, Kennedy's, he had been at as high as 15% in the polling average a few months ago.
He's down 8%. Now that'll probably continue to go down.

Speaker 12 But, I mean, that's four times the margin right now. Right.

Speaker 12 And there's probably some of his voters that don't like Donald Trump. But if, you know, they're parking their votes for Kennedy.

Speaker 12 And if he think he's telling them it's okay to be for Trump, you know, he's obviously Trump's not going to get all those people because they've already decided they don't like Trump. But you get some.

Speaker 12 You only need a lot. You don't even need it.
And he's already ahead.

Speaker 16 I think loose kooks go to Trump.

Speaker 16 But like, I also just, the political space Donald Trump has because of the support among Republicans that he has, it is inconceivable to us that Joe Biden would call, and he shouldn't call RFK to get his endorsement.

Speaker 16 It is such an assumption that Donald Trump can say whatever he wants, appeal to whoever he wants.

Speaker 16 That freedom to move is an advantage he has.

Speaker 12 And it just, I don't know, just sucks. Yeah, lying is an advantage in politics for sure.

Speaker 16 Right, but also lying and the fealty he has of his base that just trusts him no matter what he says or does.

Speaker 12 All right, just quickly before we go to break, like we said, we're going to be in Milwaukee Wednesday and Thursday. And then on Friday, July 19th, we're hopping over to Madison.
Yeah, we are.

Speaker 12 For a live show at the Orpheum Theater with co-host Aaron Haynes and guest Ben Wickler.

Speaker 12 And on Saturday the 20th, Love It or Leave It will also be in Madison, joined by special guests Thomas Lennon, Victoria Vincent, former Lieutenant Governor Mandela Barnes, and State Representative Francesca Hong at the Barry Moore Theater.

Speaker 16 I'm going to have four days of dairy and then I'll fly myself home.

Speaker 12 Glad I'm not on that plane. Glad I'm not on that plane.

Speaker 12 Safer than a Boeing.

Speaker 12 And more reliable.

Speaker 15 Speaking of all those snooks.

Speaker 12 Head to crooko.com/slash events to grab tickets now. When we come back, we'll be talking about the Biden campaign and why the DNC is planning a virtual roll call ahead of the convention.

Speaker 4 I'm Lacey Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time.

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Speaker 12 Okay, last night we talked about whether the effort to replace Biden was dying out. Pretty clear after today that it has not.

Speaker 12 The Times reported this morning that Congressman Adam Schiff, the Democratic nominee for Senate in California, just told donors at a fundraiser in New York over the weekend: quote, I think if he is our nominee, I think we lose.

Speaker 12 And we may very well lose the Senate and lose our chance to take back the House. That's according to someone who saw a transcript of the event.

Speaker 12 He also told the crowd that the Biden team isn't listening to opposing views right now. An anonymous House Democrat also told Axios, quote, the replace Biden movement is back.

Speaker 12 One member talking about this on the record is Congressman Seth Moulton of Massachusetts, who Tommy interviewed on pod Save the World today.

Speaker 12 Here's what he said.

Speaker 12 Very early Sunday morning, the first phone call I got was from a colleague who agrees with me, as the majority of Democrats in Congress do, but like most, hasn't come out and said it publicly.

Speaker 12 And he just said, what do we do? It's even more urgent now. I mean, Trump is going to ride this assassination attempt right into the White House.

Speaker 12 The only chance we have is a change at the top of the ticket. Tommy, what did Seth say about what his colleagues are saying in private? And does he think more will come out?

Speaker 15 Yeah, I mean, I asked him, I think, the question that we've all had, which was, it felt like there was growing momentum in Congress from Democrats calling on Biden to drop out.

Speaker 15 And I asked him if that momentum had stalled out after Saturday. And he said, actually, no, in private, concerns have only increased.
People are even more worried that Trump is going to ride

Speaker 15 this, you know, scary assassination attempt to victory and use it for political advantage. And that people are talking about it even more.
They're just not all together right now.

Speaker 15 I think they're all home. So this is happening on text.
So I I do think these efforts that we'll talk about in a minute to potentially move up the nomination vote have pissed off a lot of people.

Speaker 15 There might be some more, you know, momentum might be picking back up in terms of people coming out publicly to call on Biden to drop out.

Speaker 15 But Seth's message to them was like, what's the point of being in politics if you're not going to say what you think? You know what I mean?

Speaker 15 Like, how can you possibly say your concern now and sit on your hands and then wake up after election day and live with yourself?

Speaker 12 Well, so let's talk about the development that also restarted this conversation, which is the DNC's continued push to hold a virtual roll call vote on the nomination, apparently as early as next week.

Speaker 12 This is not a new plan exactly, and it originally had to do with making sure the Democratic ticket appears on the ballot in states like Ohio that have deadlines in early August before the Democratic Convention.

Speaker 12 All of this is because the Democratic Convention is quite late this year, and some of these deadlines are in early August, and obviously the Democratic Convention's in late August.

Speaker 12 But even though Ohio just passed a law, Republican legislature, Republican governor, to give Democrats more time to get on the ballot after their convention, the DNC is still moving forward with the virtual roll call vote, which is leading some Democrats in Congress to believe that it's all about nominating Biden as quickly as possible in an effort to end the conversation about him stepping aside.

Speaker 12 Congressman Jared Huffman, one of the members who's been vocal about the challenges that Biden presents, is now circulating a letter for other Democrats to sign that asked the DNC to call off the roll call vote.

Speaker 12 We don't know how many members have signed on, but we do know that several frontline members, including Susan Wilde of Pennsylvania, Mike Levin of California, Pat Ryan of New York, plan to sign it.

Speaker 12 Huffman told the Times the DNC forcing the roll call would be, quote, a power play of the highest order.

Speaker 12 Former DNC chairs Donna Brazil, Howard Dean, and Terry McAuliffe sent their own letter today in favor of the DNC's virtual roll call vote.

Speaker 12 They don't mention mention Biden, but argue that this is the best way to ensure the Democratic ticket is on the ballot in every state. Dan, who's right?

Speaker 12 Both, sort of, and no one.

Speaker 12 I mean,

Speaker 12 prior to the debate,

Speaker 12 the plan the DNC was putting in place makes sense. Even if Ohio has changed the law, you want to be extra cover because it's not just Ohio.

Speaker 12 States like California and Washington have their ballot access certification deadlines at the outset of the Democratic convention. 20th, 22nd, 23rd, or some of those states.

Speaker 12 And there is a turnaround time between when Biden is actually nominated and you get all the signatures notarized, et cetera, and filed appropriately.

Speaker 12 And what has happened in previous years is you basically send a pledge to that you're going to send the real stuff and they will swap them out when you send the real stuff, like almost an IOU for notarized signatures.

Speaker 12 That's been fine. People are very worried that in this new world of insane MAGA election interference, they're going to try to deny Democrats ballot ballot access.

Speaker 12 So in a completely, in a world where Biden's obviously going to be the nominee, this is all pro forma, just do it early, get it done. They came up with this.

Speaker 12 And

Speaker 12 not even because the concerns are like,

Speaker 12 it's better to be safe than sorry.

Speaker 12 Why would you even risk it? Belt and suspenders, right? And then, and the timing makes sense too, because it is a relatively complicated process to get all these people.

Speaker 12 You have to get a majority of the delegates to vote. Their votes have to be certified in some way, shape, or form.
That takes time. So they're going to give themselves.
Several thousand people.

Speaker 12 It's almost 3,000 people.

Speaker 12 They gave themselves time to do it. They put that plan in place.
Debate happened. Debate about the debate happened.
And now they're proceeding with the plan as if they were.

Speaker 12 And they're in this position that is very challenging because if you change the plan, you're acknowledging the legitimacy and possibility that there could actually be a change at the top of the ticket, which is very hard for the DNC, which is run by Joe Biden, to do.

Speaker 12 But if you go with the old plan, you further inflame the division within the party that has come since the debate. And so we are sort of.

Speaker 12 Which is is why you get these talking points from DNC chair Jamie Harrison and others that sound so bullshitty because they're only what he has decided is, well, I'm going to blame the Republicans in Ohio and say that like, you know, even though they passed a law to say that Democrats could be on the ticket, I'm going to make people believe that maybe they'll change their minds and pass another law, you know, like, so it doesn't really pass the smell test.

Speaker 12 Now, it's true that Republicans in the Ohio legislature are not the only problem here. There could be random conservative groups that file suit.
A number of legal scholars were like, well,

Speaker 12 that doesn't, that wouldn't carry, really carry any water, but you know, if we live with some people at immunity, they're letting the president do whatever they want.

Speaker 12 So, like, yeah, people are, people are a little worried about that.

Speaker 12 But, but the other option here is to have the virtual roll call vote as close to the deadlines as possible and not starting next week. Or, right.

Speaker 16 Well, the thing that I have trouble wrapping my head around is: okay, so doing this next week feels like the worst possible option because it

Speaker 16 tries to silence a debate that isn't done in a way that will be as

Speaker 12 whether it's intentional or not, that's what it does. That's what it does.

Speaker 16 And it will be, I just, to attend, like, I'm just looking at this Republican convention and the energy and enthusiasm we're seeing and imagining the kind of enervated slog that would be a Democratic convention in which this debate was silenced by procedure,

Speaker 16 I think it's just, it's not a very optimistic experience.

Speaker 12 But if you, it's just a horrible anyway. I'll see you guys in Chicago.

Speaker 16 This is just, it's what it is. I'm like,

Speaker 12 we're fucking around.

Speaker 16 It's horrible. But so then it's like, okay.
The virtual roll call has to be later, so there can be space for there to be this debate and the possibility of another nominee.

Speaker 16 But it seems hard to imagine that actually taking place until the convention actually begins, right?

Speaker 16 It's like, it's just hard to wrap your head around how you can actually, like, Joe Biden himself, whether aware or unaware of what the actual plan was, said, if, if you think I shouldn't be the nominee, challenge me at the convention.

Speaker 16 The convention is the place where everyone's in everyone's mind, broker convention, that this is where it would play out.

Speaker 16 If the lawyers are saying that that's dangerous, it leaves everybody in a very confused way.

Speaker 12 When Biden said that, that was not. That was rhetorical bullshit.
No, no, I know. No, I know, I know.

Speaker 15 I'm just, I'm telling the listeners. That was rhetorical bullshit.

Speaker 15 The thing that I do think complicates this conversation is I'm looking at a story in NBC News right now that's talking about the debate over whether Biden should drop out.

Speaker 15 And here's a couple lines from it. By the end of last week, the president and his team had settled on a strategy forward.

Speaker 15 The five people familiar with internal discussion said that strategy, as described by multiple Biden aides and allies, is to run out the clock.

Speaker 12 No shit, huh?

Speaker 15 And if you reduce the amount of clock outstanding, of course, people are going to act like, okay, you're trying to rig the system.

Speaker 12 It just, this continues to be part of the problem coming from some of the people advising Joe Biden right now is they seem to be so committed to being the nominee that they're willing to sacrifice being re-elected president to do so.

Speaker 12 Because let's say Joe Biden had been challenged, it had a real primary. This is the exact moment when you're doing what the Republicans are doing, which is you're trying to unify the party.

Speaker 12 You're bringing your opponents in the party into your coalition. It's when Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders got together, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, right? That is how it happens.

Speaker 12 But because Joe Biden was not officially challenged, even though 50% and sometimes more percent of Democrats wanted a different nominee or didn't want him to run,

Speaker 12 and then he did well in these very low turnout, non-competitive primaries against Dean Phillips and Arian Williamson.

Speaker 12 He and his team have been operating under the illusion of party unity because there had been unity before the debate, at least publicly, from all the elites in the party, all the elected officials, all the pundits, everyone else, but the electorate was not there.

Speaker 12 And so the process here, if Joe Biden is going to be the nominee, is not just to run out the clock. It's to unify the party behind him.
So as the nominee, he can win.

Speaker 12 And this is counterproductive to that. Yeah.
I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 12 And it sounds as if now that that they're going forward with it i could see them saying like yeah maybe we'll we'll push the final date of the voting to like but like it either way we are running out of time right and joe biden's strategy of running out the clock is it's it's it's going to be effective right and i think the only thing like people have made their voices heard we certainly have uh according to every poll the voters have democrats have the at least at least half of democrats and just about every poll registered democrats want him to step aside a majority of black voters voters, a majority of Latino voters, a majority of women voters, right?

Speaker 12 Majority of young voters. That has not broken through.
Some members of Congress have gone through. I think the last play here is

Speaker 12 back to your conversation with Seth, Moulton, that like if a bunch of House Democrats and Senate Democrats either go to Joe Biden or publicly talk about this or Pelosi, who there's a lot of reports has been behind the scenes wanting him to step aside, Pelosi goes to him.

Speaker 12 Like there's one more play here, right, of people that Joe Biden has known for a long time and respected senators too.

Speaker 12 He was a former senator. Go to him and make one last plea.
And then if he says no, then he says no. And that's it.
That's we, everyone did what they could.

Speaker 12 But I do think for those representatives who want this, you got to say it. In the meantime, you got to do it now.

Speaker 16 And they got to do it now. And by the way, in the meantime,

Speaker 16 I think everyone making clear that the DNC moving forward with a roll call vote this quickly would be a fucking disaster.

Speaker 16 I can't imagine something that will alienate more people that are the people that are very nervous about Joe Biden, but are also the people that will donate and knock on doors.

Speaker 16 They are part of the 14 million that voted for Joe Biden because there wasn't an alternative.

Speaker 16 And by the way, would be proud to support him if he were the nominee, who would feel so silenced and pushed aside by the decision to move ahead with a roll call vote this quickly.

Speaker 16 It's just as terrible a decision as I could imagine.

Speaker 15 Yeah, I think it would feel sneaky.

Speaker 15 All of this is why another member of Congress I was talking to yesterday said that's why they feel like they have basically from the day after the Republican convention ends till like Monday or Tuesday, to get a bunch of people to come out publicly and say, you know, you have to step aside.

Speaker 15 Because I think members of Congress feel like they tried, I mean, Seth said this to me too.

Speaker 15 They tried to privately get a message to him after the debate that they thought there needed to be a change and that was ineffective. So that's why all these members are going public.

Speaker 12 Tried to get a message through George Tefanopoulos, through Lester Holt, through all those great reporters who asked questions during the NATO. The complex.

Speaker 12 They took Morning Joe off the air.

Speaker 12 Yeah, there's silence. There's no smoke signals.
There's polls. There's

Speaker 12 just someone else.

Speaker 16 We have to do like a kind of

Speaker 16 to get through

Speaker 16 the inability to get. We had to drop flyers over the White House like we're trying to reach people.

Speaker 12 Like in North Korea.

Speaker 12 Yes. Kamal Harris has been walking by him drinking from a coconut.

Speaker 12 I don't know if we're going to end this. This is a high note or not, but one thing

Speaker 12 we noticed.

Speaker 12 Chris La Civita, Donald Trump's senior advisor, told everyone for his speech on Thursday night to buckle up because it's going to be at least an hour and a half.

Speaker 12 An hour and a half.

Speaker 16 I was thinking about why this is. And here's why.
I think it's going to be an hour and a half. Because what we're going to get.

Speaker 15 English and Spanish.

Speaker 16 Because I think what we're going to get is the post-assassination attempt Unity Topper.

Speaker 12 Like, I think they're just boltings.

Speaker 16 We're getting a bolted on top and bottom. And then the red meat division draft.

Speaker 16 Tape back together the

Speaker 16 Peachy store-up. Yeah, I do.
I do think it's going to be, we got, there's no turn-up speech. Donald Trump does not start from page one.
He's not that kind of a worker.

Speaker 16 So I think we get a new top and a new bottom, and the same fucking American carnage right there in the middle. That's my, that's my prediction.

Speaker 12 If I'm going to predict something,

Speaker 12 a 90-minute speech is terrible.

Speaker 15 How much time do they have with the networks? Two hours?

Speaker 12 Five days after Donald Trump was shot in the air. He could speak for 17 minutes.
He could go full Castro.

Speaker 12 He could be there all night. Gaddafi there.

Speaker 12 Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 12 They got to get to

Speaker 12 Modern Family Reworn. It's like a bus again.

Speaker 12 It's the last gasp of the

Speaker 16 plus there's got to leave time for him to read the get well soon card from Melania.

Speaker 16 Not speaking.

Speaker 16 Again, in any other time, I'd be like, wait, what? Not speaking.

Speaker 12 Yeah. 90 minutes.
Don't give. Hey, just here's a tip.
90 minute speeches, don't do it. 60 minute speech, don't eat it.
Anything past 17 is

Speaker 12 honestly, 20 minutes. 20 minutes is your, That's your, that's your outer perimeter.

Speaker 15 I mean, in 1988, Bill Clinton got destroyed for giving a 33-minute speech.

Speaker 12 In a seven-minute slot, though. 17-minute slot.
17-minute slot.

Speaker 12 Anyway, that's our show for tonight. We will talk to you from Milwaukee tomorrow night.
We hope. Yeah, we hope.

Speaker 12 We'll see you there. Bye.
Bye, everyone.

Speaker 12 If you want to get ad-free episodes, exclusive content, and more, consider joining our Friends of the Pod subscription community at crooked.com slash friends.

Speaker 12 And if you're already doom scrolling, don't forget to follow us at Pod Save America on Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content, and more.

Speaker 12 Plus, if you're as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review. Pod Save America is a crooked media production.
Our show is produced by Olivia Martinez and David Toledo.

Speaker 12 Our associate producers are Saul Rubin and Farah Safari. Reed Sherlin is our executive producer.
The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.

Speaker 12 Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglund and Charlotte Landis. Writing support by Hallie Kiefer.
Madeleine Herringer is our head of news and programming.

Speaker 12 Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Andy Taft is our executive assistant.
Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Mia Kelman, David Toles, Kirill Pelaviv, and Molly Lobel.

Speaker 4 I'm Lacey Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time.

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