A Brutally Honest Debate Recap

At Eisner Amper, we are creative problem solvers that take a 360-degree approach focusing on you. We're an award-winning firm with decades of experience.
Eisner Amper, let's get you ready. Building a business may feel like a big jump, but OnDeck small business loans can help keep you afloat.
With lines of credit up to $100,000 and term loans up to $250,000, OnDeck lets you choose the loan that's right for your business.

As a top-rated online small business lender, OnDeck's team of loan advisors can help you find the right business loan to fit your needs.

Visit OnDeck.com for more information.

Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank.

OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
I'm Jon Lovett. Tom Keeby Torn.
I'm Dan Pfeiffer. What a debate, fellas.
Woo. Wow.
Love it. My first question is for you.
You came back from Fiji way too soon. If you had only stayed a couple more weeks.
Go back. Put me back in.
Put me back in. Take away my phone.
Leave me out of this. So we all, just like many of you, endured the 90-minute debate between Joe Biden and Donald Trump.
I think you're hearing this in the morning, so you probably remember it. Maybe you're fortunate and you don't.
But just in case we're going to refresh your memory, here's a clip of what happened. We're at a state where in six weeks, you don't even know whether you're pregnant or not, but you cannot see a doctor and have him decide on what your circumstances are, whether you need help.
Look, there's so many young women who have been, including a young woman who just was murdered. he went to the funeral the idea that she was murdered by by by an immigrant coming in they talk about that if he wins this election our country doesn't have a chance not even a chance of coming out of this rut we probably won't have a country left anymore that's how bad it is he worst in history by far.
President Trump, the question was about what would you do to make South Korea more affordable? He can't hit a ball 50 yards. He challenged me to a golf match.
He can't hit a ball 50 yards. I'd be happy to have a driving contest with him.
I got my handicap, which when I was vice president, down to a six. I told you before I'm happy to play golf if you carry your your own bag think you can do it that's the biggest lie that he's a six handicap of all i was an eight handicap i really don't know what he said at the end of that sentence i don't think he knows what he said either look okay uh that was the debate look we always want to be honest with you guys i don't think we need to you don't listen to us for us to sugarcoat anything i think it was a fucking disaster i think it was like maybe the worst debate i've ever seen in my entire life donald trump is a threat to democracy donald trump is a just a despicable human being he should not be president we have to do literally everything we possibly can to make sure he is not president again.
And that is why last night was so fucking awful, because Joe Biden just in every single way failed at that debate. And like, I don't know what else to say there, except that that and then, you know, I won't make any other predictions now, but it was it was a disaster.
Yeah, I mean, look, debates are a performance. And what you say and how you say it both matter.
And so the optics, to start there, were very bad tonight. Biden had to answer concerns about his age.
I think he exacerbated them. His voice sounded frail.
There was an answer where he kind of stalled out halfway through. The cut shots when Trump was speaking were not kind to Biden.
In the first debate in 2020, he did a very good job of kind of smiling or like taking notes. I counted, I think he smiled twice or three times in 90 minutes.
Yeah. I mean, this time he looked confused at times.
He was looking away. And those clips are already flying around TikTok.
Like that's the online spin war that's happening as we speak. No deceptive editing necessarily.
Yeah. Not much of a war.
I mean, in the substance, I just, I don't think Biden landed the hits he needed to land.

We just heard him, he needed to prosecute the case against Trump on abortion. There we heard a clip where he sort of took an abortion answer and wound up at a point about immigration.
I don't think he made a strong economic argument. The attacks on Trump's felony convictions weren't strong.
That's not to say that Trump was great. I don't think he was.
He ducked questions. The mean, angry Trump came out of times.
But I came into this debate anxious about Biden's performance and focused on Biden's performance. And I felt like the first 15 to 20 minutes were the worst part of the debate for Biden.
And that's probably all that some people watched. And so I think we're all angry and frustrated to be in this position.
Joe Biden has done a great job as president. He has better policies.
He has a better team. But his job is to communicate those ideas and then make a contrast with Trump and what he would do.
And he failed at that. And his other job was to put to rest concerns about his age.
And I think they were made worse. So this debate was a really important moment in this campaign.
And it didn't go well. And I'm also worried that there might not be another debate, because if you're Trump, you might be thinking, why not just leave it at that? I mean, Biden was not forced to do this debate.
He wanted this debate on this timeline. This is something his campaign swerved out of the lane, broke with all precedent in modern political history to seek out a debate outside of the debate commission process in June.
And I agreed with that strategy at the time because it was an acknowledgement that this race was profiling in a way that would likely lead to Joe Biden losing. He was behind in the polls.
It was functioning really as a referendum on Joe Biden. Voters were not focused enough on Donald Trump.
They were concerned about his age. And they believe the best way to address that was to get on a stage in front of a nationally televised audience and assuage those concerns.
And he did not do that. As Tommy said, he exacerbated them.
In fact, he did the opposite. He did the exact opposite of that.
And like you said, it is painful to say this because we adore Joe Biden as a person. He's a fundamentally decent, wonderful human being.
And he has accomplished a fuck of a lot as president that he should be proud of and we should be proud of. And he has done a good job as president.
And I believe that tonight's performance is not a reflection of the kind of president that he is, but it is a very concerning piece of evidence about the kind of candidate he will be in this race, right? Because you need to ultimately be able to defend your record and make the case against Donald Trump. And there is never in the history of politics been an easier candidate to make a case against than Donald Trump.
Donald Trump gave him ample opportunities to do so. If Joe Biden had given a B minus performance tonight, we'd be talking about Donald Trump.
He lied. He made very little sense.
He didn't answer any question. He became much more incoherent as the debate went on.
Donald Trump did, for sure. And this was, maybe we'll have another debate, maybe we won't, but this was Joe Biden's best and biggest opportunity to address the single biggest concern about his candidacy.
And he did not deliver on that tonight. And that is deeply disappointing.
Yeah, at first it was shocking, and it was scary, and it was sad. And by the end, it was absurd.
I'm also, by the way, I'm not really buying this spin that the first 20 minutes were terrible. And then he got somehow much better.
That was not my experience in watching this debate. Like I think part of what makes this so sad is A, we understand the stakes.
B, we viewed Donald Trump as an eminently beatable figure. And C, we believe Joe Biden to be an excellent president.
I believe that. I believe Joe Biden ran because he loves this country and he believed his case against Trump was the best.
He was right about that. I believe he was an extraordinary president and played the hands better than anybody else could have played it.
But the most important job Joe Biden has as president of the United States is to beat Donald Trump. And unfortunately, he went into this debate, he was behind.
His job was to overcome that dynamic and changed it. He emphasized it.
And for the same sense of decency and empathy and patriotism that led Joe Biden to run, I believe this is a moment to at least have a big open conversation about whether the best thing he can do for America to end his presidency as the success it deserves to be is whether or not he should step aside. And already I know like because the stakes are so high, you see people afraid to have that conversation and fine.
But what I don't appreciate is people immediately saying, well, we know Joe Biden won't step aside. We know Joe Biden won't do this.
We know Joe Biden won't do that. I don't know what Joe Biden's going to do.
Nobody knows what Joe Biden's going to do. Joe Biden was still on stage while some people were saying that they know Joe Biden is not going to step aside.
I believe Joe Biden loves this country and wants what's best for it. And so there's a lot of messy, complicated, confusing unknowns ahead of us.
But the first, I think the first step is, let's have the debate about which path is riskiest. Is the riskiest path sticking with Joe Biden or is the riskiest path saying we want someone else? And anybody who says that that is not a tough call right now is full of fucking shit.
We're going to get to that in a bit. We're obviously not the only ones who are thinking this.
And that's not just because there's like Democrats privately freaking out,

though that's happening.

Most everyone I know in my life is also freaking out.

So that's also happening.

But just to give you an example, as soon as the debate was over,

this is what we heard from CNN's John King.

Let's listen.

Anderson, this was a game-changing debate in the sense that right now, as we speak, there is a deep, a wide, and a very aggressive panic in the Democratic Party. It started minutes into the debate, and it continues right now.
It involves party strategists. It involves elected officials.
It involves fundraisers. And they're having conversations about the president's performance, which they think was dismal, which they think will hurt other people down the party in the ticket.
And they're having conversations about what they should do about it. Some of those conversations include, should we go to the White House and ask the president to step aside? Other of the conversations are about, should prominent Democrats go public with that call? So that was John King.
So then we heard from all sorts of Democrats. Kate Bedingfeld, former White House communications director, said that it was a bad performance.
We heard from multiple other Democrats who said that. There's members of Congress.
I mean, we're recording this at midnight. So by the time you hear this, there's probably other Democrats that will have said this too.
But members of Congress are giving blind quotes so far. So the panic is real.
It's happening. I feel like it is underselling it or or minimizing it to call it panicking or like bedwetting look if this was september or october we would be honest that this is a this was a horrible debate but say like look it's too late the election is in a couple weeks obviously we should vote for joe biden and we should do everything we can to make sure that Donald Trump doesn't win and make Joe Biden another president.
But what Joe Biden did was agree to this debate, propose this debate and agree to this debate with seven weeks left to the convention. And as you said, Lovett, it would be silly not to have this conversation.
And that's not to say that a contested convention would be easy or necessarily nominate someone who can beat Donald Trump. That is the reality of the situation we're in right now.
But I think like, and look, it's up to Joe Biden, right? Joe Biden's going to make the decision. The people around him are going to counsel him on this decision.
But like, I think that everyone else who saw what we all saw last night needs to be honest that like, it's not just that, look, we've talked about debates before. Debates are performances.
Debates are silly. They get scored.
Barack Obama had a terrible first debate against Mitt Romney, right? And then he went out there and he fixed it, right? The terrible debate that Barack Obama had against Mitt Romney was nothing like this. This is just another level, right? I've never, like I said, I've never seen any political.
Can you guys think of a political debate that was as bad as this? No, the previous worst debate that any of us have ever seen was the first presidential debate last time. And the difference between that debate and this debate, and I think part of the reason this debate feels worse, is that was a despicable display.
But we didn't come away thinking that the race had suddenly tilted against Joe Biden. This was a horrible debate to watch.
Well, I think Joe Biden won that debate. Right.
But well, everybody walked away saying that was the worst debate they'd ever seen. I's true.
I think people had the exact same reaction to this. Nobody came away from this loving politics.
Or loving Donald Trump. Or loving Donald Trump.
It would be clear. I don't think Donald Trump picked up.
And no one was like, oh, you know what? Donald Trump has assuaged my concerns about him not being a fucking lunatic. I don't think that happened.
But I think people were fucking. I mean, it's not just that Joe Biden needed like make the case against Donald Trump in a debate.
Donald Trump is a threat to democracy right now. And we need leaders and we need a president to actually make the case for why Donald Trump is unfit for office as we all know.
He did not bring up, like he didn't make a case against January 6th. He didn't talk about the fact that he tried to overturn the last election.
He didn't talk about the fact that he is facing 88 felony counts. He said the words convicted felon once.
Then he started talking about having sex with the porn star. Alley cats.
Alley cats, right? He didn't bring up like almost any of Donald Trump's vulnerabilities in a coherent way. Let's talk about Trump's performance a minute.
I mean, Trump lied constantly. He lied about his position on abortion.
He lied about COVID. He lied about January 6th.
He blamed Pelosi for the insurrection. The problem was the moderators had told everyone, we're not here to fact check.
And it was Joe Biden's job to effectively call him out for what he was getting wrong and then make the case against him. And he just failed to do it.
And look, I don't think Trump was good, but to his credit, he was relentlessly on message. Everything came back to illegal immigration.
He made almost every question about the border because he knew that was his strength and that was Joe Biden's weakness. And there was no equivalent effort to get on a message that had Trump on his back heels from the Biden side.
It was frankly just kind of hard to follow answer after hard to follow answer. I am open to the idea that like we are freaks who watch this in a way that is different from the way maybe undecided voters would watch it, right? There was dials that came out throughout saying people dislike them both.
Like, I'm open to- I can see that. Completely can see that.
And by the way, I'm also open to the possibility that this debate doesn't have a severe impact, that the actual impact of it won't be as long lasting. And I'm extremely open to the possibility that Joe Biden can come back with us.
But I think, John, what you're getting at here is I think the reason this felt so dispiriting and so important is because the way in which he lost this debate

at a time when he needed to change the dynamic makes us very, very concerned that he cannot

change the dynamic in any other setting, that he is not the person to make this argument for himself

or against Donald Trump. Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy.
Live and uncensored, catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues, and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen.
You can listen to Jeff Lewis live at home or anywhere you are. Download the SiriusXM app for over 425 channels of ad-free music, sports, entertainment, and more.
Subscribe now and get three months free. Offer details apply.
The last thing you want to hear when you need your auto insurance most is a robot with countless irrelevant menu options, which is why with USAA Auto Insurance, you'll get great service that is easy and reliable all at the touch of a button. Get a quote today.
Restrictions apply. USAA! Did you know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving? Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights.

Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway.

As a parent, you can't always be in the car,

but you can stay connected to their safety with Greenlight Infinity's driving reports.

Monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding, and more.

These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety.

Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time.

Help keep your teen safe. Sign up for Greenlight Infinity at greenlight.com slash podcast.
And again, so we, you know, we watched the debate end and then Joe Biden appeared at a watch party and he was much more energetic at the watch party. He was much more coherent, though even there, because everyone was like, well, where was that Joe Biden? Yeah, energy-wise, coherence-wise, for sure.
But his message was like, he started talking about the dog-faced lying pony soldier. It was not good.
Everyone's grading on such a curve. It was just a weird one-minute speech.
It was a weird, yeah, exactly. And so I just feel like we're now all, yeah, we're now all like grading on a curve.
Everything's relative, but it's like, hello, we all, we all saw this, right? Well, that's the one that you can't, I'm not going to be convinced that I did. Don't tell me my eyes are lying.
Like I saw what I saw. Like a handful of things can be true at the same time, right? That Joe Biden's performance was very bad at a very bad time.
That if you were, it's also true that if you were to show swing voters who did not watch the debate, only footage of Donald Trump speaking, they would be very unhappy with Donald Trump. Oh, for sure.
And I would be shocked if they weren't. He did nothing to improve his standing in the race.
All he did was just be better than Joe Biden. And I would say what Trump did do for all of his bad, unpopular policy positions, refusal to answer questions, his repeated lies is he was more restrained than he was in 2020.
And so you could watch that and not come away with the idea that he is like, that's what Biden wanted. What strategically he should have done is try to, when Trump got mad was when Biden went after him on January 6th early.
And if he had done that earlier and sort of gotten Trump off his game, Biden couldn't do that. The bigger thing here is Biden is behind in this race, right? We can debate by how much, but Trump has an advantage in the swing states and maybe all six of them right now.
And so how do you change the dynamic in a race? You either change the dynamic in a race by taking advantage of huge high leverage moments moments with lots of eyeballs on you and delivering in a big way. Biden did not do that.
And there may not be another moment like that because the convention speech is not a moment like that. No, because Trump gets a convention speech, Biden gets a convention speech, they're planned.
They're mostly watched by partisans. And partisans watch them, 100%.
And the other way you do it is by waking up every single day, dominating the media conversation and making a compelling, relentless argument for yourself and against the other person. Joe Biden has not done that in this presidency at any point.
And look, if suddenly he wakes up tomorrow and can do that for the next several months, right, then great. Right.
So happy. You were doing multiple, you're doing multiple rallies a day.
You were doing every single possible media hit you can do. You're going into unfriendly territory to do things that go viral.
Right. You know, it's like Trump was on, I don't know which Paul, Logan Paul, Jake Paul's podcast.
Sure. And then either Jake or Logan or whoever, like challenge Biden to do it.
Like, yeah, go like in a different candidate could go do that and just like take them on and and get in his face and have a viral moment and show your strength. Whether Biden's staff are treating him with kid gloves or they, or maybe because of tonight, they think he can't do those things.
He is not doing that. So it's the question is, how is he going to change the dynamic in the race going forward? If tonight happened and we may not get another debate.
There was one question and answer that I thought was kind of damaging for Trump. And I wondered if you guys agreed.
He was asked, what do you say to voters who think you violated your oath on January 6th? And Trump said on January 6th, we had a great border. On January 6th, we were energy independent.
On January 6th, we had the lowest taxes, the lowest regulations. We were respected around the world.
Then he went into a pivot. I wonder, I don't know, like rhetorically it was clever, but I wonder if you were like, what are you talking about? That was my reaction.
I thought it was bizarre. And I'm like, because it seemed like something that they had planned.
And I was like, that is not, that is, that cannot be effective. Clever was the wrong, like it was like, it was a rhetorical only answer that never touched the substance.
It's like giving like a, like a, what do you call those things? A fidget spinner?

A fidget spinner to a kid.

It's just like, here's something he will say

that will likely not damage him more

than what he would say on his own.

But this is the problem, right?

Because there's Joe Biden standing there

and he's not lithe or fast or direct enough

to be able to counterpunch in any of these moments.

He tried there.

He said, he tried to get him to say,

well, you denounced the Proud Boys.

You told them to stand by.

We're going to be able to counterpunch in any of these moments. He tried there.
He said, he tried to get him to say, will you denounce the Proud Boys? You told them to stand by. Will you denounce the insurrections? But he just couldn't get it out.
He couldn't get it out. Everyone ignored it.
And by the way, I just, I also want to say, I'm really not up for a debate about CNN and their role in this. If you watched that debate and you came away thinking the problem was CNN, go for a walk outside.
That is ridiculous. Speaking of CNN, so the first debate in 2020, the CNN post-debate poll, Joe Biden, 60% of voters thought Joe Biden won.
28% thought Donald Trump won. Tonight, the poll just came out.
67% of voters think Donald Trump won. Only 33% think that Joe Biden won.
It's a big swing. It's a 66-point swing towards Trump.
There was also Frank Luntz's focus group of all undecided voters who, again, Luntz was tweeting this through the debate. At times were saying, oh, they're mad at both of them.
They don't like that Trump's being so personal in line. A tiny bit of purchase on which to have hope.
And then at the end, they're all undecided voters and all of them think that Joe Biden should step aside. There was a focus group on MSNBC just before we started.
One of the voters said, I love Joe Biden's policies. I think Donald Trump's despicable, but Joe Biden can't execute.
Like, we should have an open convention. I love that moment with that.
There was a despondency with that person. Because what you got was how much they disliked Donald Trump and understand already that Donald Trump doesn't fight for them,

doesn't care about them, isn't out for them,

but they see Joe Biden, even though they want to be for Joe Biden,

what they saw made them really, really concerned.

And this is what voters have been saying.

This is what lots of people have been saying.

For years now, it has gotten worse and worse.

And what Joe Biden said when there was a big news cycle. All right.
When everybody said it was too late and there was a big news cycle about this. Joe Biden, I remember he was he did a press conference.
It was very combative. And then someone shouted the question at him and he said, watch me.
After the Robert Hurd special counsel report. The Robert Hurd special counsel report.
Joe Biden turned to the door, turned back creakily and said, watch me. And by the way, like I this entire time have been just very uncertain, right, about what was the more dangerous or risky path given the threat Trump poses, right? Do you do you trust that Joe Biden can overcome these concerns about his age enough to make this case? Or do you believe you should go down the messy and unknown path of seeking out a different nominee? And I think what we saw tonight means we need to have that debate.
There's a lot to come. It's complicated.
It's uncertain. It's risky.
But we have to have that conversation. I think it's totally acceptable to wonder aloud and openly talk about the path of the convention.
I think it's totally legitimate for folks to say, you know what? Actually, I think sticking with Joe Biden is the best chance we have at winning. So we all should do that.
What is not acceptable is telling people to stop bedwetting or that they didn't see what they saw or that, oh, you guys just need this just Twitter nonsense. It's time to grow a spine.
Enough with that rhetorical bullshit. It's insulting to people who are on your team who want to fight for you,

but have eyeballs and care deeply about this country and are anxious because we all have a stake in this election.

It's not about one man on the ticket or about the staff around him.

It's about the fucking future of the country.

And by the way,

the staff around him, he's, he has a great campaign team the staff is fantastic yes they are doing everything right the person who is to blame right now is joe biden because he has told all of us i am the guy like he's thought it through i am the guy bet on me i'm gonna do it and then he did this and then and joe Joe Biden and anyone around him, whether it's the First Lady, whoever else keeps encouraging him to do this. I feel terrible for the staff on the campaign and a lot of the other people.
Look, not just because a lot of them are our friends, but because they are doing really good work. But he is the candidate.
And he has to lead the campaign. You can't has to debate.
And they are doing these jobs because they know they love Joe Biden. They absolutely love Joe Biden.
They also know that you have to defeat Donald Trump. And this is, as we sit here right now, that, that is the, that is the way to do it.
Is you elect the choices right now, as of today, there will be a conversation in the coming days is elect Joe Biden or we get Donald Trump. Those are the two choices, right? It's not the choice a lot of people wanted.
It's not a perfect choice, but that, that is the option before us. Right.
And so that's why, that's why they're doing it. That's why we have done what we have done to try to help Joe Biden.
Right. And that's why people are so frustrated and upset about this debate because he did this.
He wanted this debate right now. Yep.
Right. And that, And he had a week of practice.
And probably should have had two. Right.
And so it's just, it is like they, this was a big moment and he did not deliver in a big moment. Right.
And it's very frustrating. And look, like you said, Dan, it's a choice between Joe Biden and Donald Trump.
Like if we get through the convention and everyone, and Joe Biden says, I'm not stepping down and there's no other Democrats step up and all the you know i've seen a lot of the elected democrats tonight on tv which understandable it's like right after the debate say like no we're sticking with joe biden that's great if everyone decides everyone who could run for president decides that they're not they're not going to run they don't want to run joe biden's the guy joe biden decides then like after that convention of course we will do everything in our power to elect Joe Biden. A hundred percent percent.
But like the best thing Joe Biden did is to propose this debate before the convention and give us a chance now to like rethink this. It is because the threat Donald Trump poses that we have to have this debate right now about whether or not it should be Joe Biden.
Do not tell us that because Donald Trump is a threat, we cannot have this conversation. That is ridiculous.
And I think just to be crystal clear about one thing, I did not come away from this debate wondering whether Joe Biden can do the job of president. He can.
He has been doing it. He's done a great job of doing it.
I came away deeply concerned about his ability to wage the campaign he needs to wage to defeat Donald Trump. It's an important distinction.
You know what I mean? I am not for one second in the camp of people regurgitating the horrible attacks from the Trump people. This is about what it takes to run a campaign, which is really, really hard.
President is a much harder job. It's a much more important job, but candidate is a different job.
Right. And it's primarily a communications job.
It's an ability to go out every day and make a case. And it's always important.
But when you're running against an authoritarian who could threaten democracy, then it's not just about being a good candidate. That is part of the job of being president in this moment right now is making the case for why democracy is the better system.
And he has not made that case. Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy.
Live and uncensored catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues, and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen.
You can listen to Jeff Lewis live at home or anywhere you are. Download the SiriusXM app for over 425 channels of ad-free music, sports, entertainment, and more.
Subscribe now and get three months free. Offer details apply.
The last thing you want to hear when you need your auto insurance most is a robot with countless irrelevant menu options which is why with USAA auto insurance you'll get great service that is easy and reliable all at the touch of a button get a quote today restrictions apply building a business may feel like a big jump but on deck small business loans can help keep you afloat. With lines of credit up to $100,000 and term loans up to $250,000, OnDeck lets you choose the loan that's right for your business.
As a top-rated online small business lender, OnDeck's team of loan advisors can help you find the right business loan to fit your needs. Visit OnDeck.com for more information.
Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota.
All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. So Axios already has some comments from, these are House Democrats.
And they are not. Who they've given their names to Axios, obviously.
Of course not. Yeah, this is not on the record.
One said one said I am in a state of shock the other uh the other said Jamal Bowman is the hero we need right now we need him to pull the fire alarm a couple that's making the rounds that one's making the rounds uh one female House Democrat said it's time for a woman to save both these men from their misery President Whitmer has a strong ring to it so that's just a sample of uh some of what we're from. And I'll just say, I imagine this is true for you guys.
I probably got like two dozen tweets tonight from friends in and out of politics. Every single one of them was as anxious as we sound.
This is not like a political insider, like agita groupthink thing. It's like all my friends from all parts of my life just being like, what's happening? People who don't tune into politics.
People who don't pay attention. person who's like it's actually not that bad i feel like i want to come back to something you said which is that you said like that the word panic feels strange both like like too big and too small because i i think i think the problem right is like what's a little patronizing it's like oh those democrats which i get well because we are often we are like that we are yes for sure and i think i think what makes this different is that like, it's not a panic in that I think people are not overreacting.
And this is a moment where people are reflecting, not just on the debate, but what led to this moment, right? And the collective sense in which we couldn't make a change and all the conversations and debates we've been having for a long time. That's one part of it.
The second part of it is I am concerned that we spend 48 hours having this paroxysm of doubt and concern. And then the July 4th happens.
Joe Biden does a rally where he is more like how he was at the State of the Union. The dynamic in the race doesn't change.
He's still behind in these swing state polls. We don't really see a clear path to how that changes, but we're reassured that, oh, the debate didn't have as long of an impact as we thought it would.
Then all of a sudden we're marching toward a convention where we never really reconciled the experience of watching that debate. And that's why I think just making sure that what this is, is not a panic, but a concerted effort to give everybody who wants to protect democracy and defeat Donald Trump the open conversation about the best person to do that is so important.
And some people will say, this conversation only helps Trump. Yeah, it does.
And no one wants to be having it. But our hand was forced by what we all watched.
Trump, the 90 minutes that we just saw. Yeah, it does.
Anyway, let's go to favorite moments. Yeah.
I think one other point I think is worth making is... Favorite moments.
We had some, by the way, do we laugh? Thorns and roses. By the way, I want you guys to know something.
We were deep gallows humor by the end of this thing. We were drinking and we were getting through it.
We went through it from stunned silence to gallows humor in about 20 minutes. I liked when we were talking about how many historians said Trump was the worst president.
That was a good part. I mean, it was just fun.
That's, you know. Yeah.
By the way, Kamala Harris was on TV afterwards. Anderson Cooper interviewed her.
I believe she went on MSNBC, though. I haven't seen that yet.
And, you know, she did quite well in the interview, and Anderson really pushed her. And at one point, she did say it was a slow start.
start, at least like the vice president acknowledged that. And that's, you know, that's the vice president.
So the idea that you're going to be like, no, everything was fine. You even have the vice, you have the president's former communications director.
You have the vice president. Like it's just, no, no one thinks it was fine.
And if you know what, and I do, I think that just telling people to deny what they saw, telling people to deny objective it's just not it's just not effective forget about whether it's right or wrong it's just not effective i'm gonna be very interested to see how what biden does at the rally he has in north carolina tomorrow because a if this was obama right and this was sort of true after that robney debate is he makes a self-deprecating joke about it right and then tries to deliver a

much better performance like will biden do that right yeah i do have there there's one upside to

this debate he will not be attacked tomorrow it's over for performance enhancing drugs so he has he

has put that right that's two asked silver lining that's there you see people there was there were

people um pausing and trying to feed joe biden adderall through the television i did yeah this

is why you don't do time release this is why you do that yeah you gotta yeah you gotta you're up

on the There were people pausing and trying to feed Joe Biden Adderall through the television.

I did, yeah.

This is why you don't do time release.

This is why you do that.

Yeah, you got it.

You're up all night.

It kicked in at the party afterwards. Yeah, right, right.

That was the problem.

And poor Joe Biden's going to be up all night.

We did have a spirited debate about golf games and handicaps.

That was wild.

All of this stuff is even more frustrating because it goes to show how vulnerable Trump is. The guy was an incoherent mess.
He was talking about... He was like a little...
I would say we were talking about the first 15, 20 minutes. I would say Trump was the best in the first 15 minutes.
And then Trump really declined throughout the debate. Biden got him upset and then Trump became more of the Trump we know.
One of the most obvious differences between watching the first debate four years ago and the first debate now is something has happened to Joe Biden's voice that has made it softer, more frail, and has led him to cough a lot. And again, I know I'm talking optics and optics doesn't matter when you're doing the job of president, but it matters a lot as a candidate.
And it just makes it hard for him to get his point across and to get these lines out and to string together arguments over the course of two minutes in a way that is compelling or even at times like fully understandable. I mean, we should know.
I mean, yeah, you're correct. Under all scenarios that his voice has changed.
He also, it came out that he had a cold. Has he had it since January? Well, I mean, like he sounded worse than usual.
And the first, like it sounded like he had to cough and he could not cough in the first 15 minutes. Yeah.
Now, why his campaign did not put out the fact that he had a cold in advance of that? Well, I'll just say, so you know what, me and Tommy and Lovett, we went to the fundraiser in LA

with President Obama and Jimmy Kimmel

and Biden was very much like he was tonight

at that fundraiser.

That was also after he had flown

from the G7 in Italy,

15 hours to LA.

And that was his second trip to Europe

in the same week.

So we chalked it up as like,

yeah, that was a pretty bad performance.

He is pretty tired.

They should let the guy sleep.

Hopefully they'll have him sleep and prep for this debate. And by the way, everyone else in the crowd saw that too, which is why the whole like, oh, deceptively edited clip of Biden freezing.
He wasn't actually freezing in that moment, but the rest of the thing was bad. And he was tired.
And I thought he would be rested tonight. I hoped he would be rested tonight.
He wasn't. Look, and by the way, we saw him at the State of the Union where he delivered.
We did. It's also like, okay, he had a cold and his voice is gravelly and not as strong as it used to be.
That doesn't explain why halfway through an answer about abortion, he pivoted to a different answer about immigration. That doesn't explain why he wasn't able to push back on Donald Trump throughout the debate.
That's a classic debate move. You pivot from your strongest issue to your weakest issue.
Mid-sentence. Did Donald Trump bring up the attack? No.
You got to bring up the attack yourself. That's a, it's, you know, then he can't do it.
You bring it up yourself. You see what I'm saying? It's a, no.
It's interesting. It's a jujitsu.
He clearly got rattled. 40 tests.
40 tests. He clearly got rattled by his performance.
Like he knew. Oh, you could tell.
He knew that he messed up that first question. And I know, because we've prepped cancer debates before, you tell him the first 10 minutes matter more than anything else.
And he knew he messed that up, and he got in his head. Because he clearly had an answer on abortion.
He had an answer on this attack that he knew Trump was going to make about this woman who was killed. And he just- He combined them.
He combined them, yeah. You also practice though, like in debate prep, I'm sure you say to him over and over again, sir, your face is going to be visible through the duration of the debate.
Every time Donald Trump speaks, they're going to be looking at you too. So you have to be mindful of how you look, smiling, laughing, right? He did a great job of that in 2020.
That's what's so funny about this. It was a disaster this time.
Not how funny, but yeah. I mean, look.
Like, you know the staff prepped him on that. You know they prepped him.
You can either laugh or you can cry. Because we watched the, we all rewatched the first 2020 debate earlier earlier this week and trump did a terrible job of that in the first debate sweaty sweaty he's like angry he's muttering himself and biden that whole he did that's what he nailed in that debate is he stared at that camera the whole time every time trump said something crazy biden gave it that classic biden smile yeah and he did the exact opposite of that so i think now now we're getting to the point in the pod.
We're all saying the same thing over and over again and want to kill ourselves. Right.
Exactly. Does it, do we have any final thoughts? Yeah, I don't, I actually don't have, I, we just watched the debate and I think we're all feeling a bit gobsmacked and I think that's a feeling to trust for a bit.
Uh, but I will, I'm not going my hotel room and watch it one more time before i go to bed oh you really jesus christ no i'm gonna love yourself i'm gonna take the same xanax they gave joe biden before the debate and uh knock myself the fuck out but i i think like a bunch of friends yeah yeah right uh no but but i i feel like the the two texts i'm getting from a lot of people that I'm sure is a shared experience was some combination of what do we do and are we doomed? I feel like a lot of people are saying that. And what do we do? Take it one step at a time.
We all just watched that. We all saw it.
Nobody knows what Joe Biden's going to do. You saw Kamala Harris is doing fucking improv with Anderson Cooper.
Gavin Newsom doesn't know what to everybody's figuring this out. So I think everybody I think just being honest about what we saw is the first step and everybody giving being generous with each other in knowing that everyone inside of this big Democratic coalition wants to defeat Donald Trump.
We just may not over the next couple of days or weeks agree on the best way to do it. That's first.
Second, are we doomed? We're not doomed. We're not doomed until the election is over and a lot can change between now and then.
Nobody knows what's going to happen. And let's just take it one step at a time.
That's my one caution here. Yeah.
Look, I'm not going to pretend tonight wasn't anything but terrible. The next few days will probably be worse because what tends to happen is the negative feelings about a debate performance like this turn into articles, which get shared around.
It compounds and the spin gets worse and worse. And it becomes a bit of a spiral.
But the fact is we have gotten like a couple of months is a lifetime in politics. I'm not saying that to like spin for Joee biden it's just an objective fact there was a fucking insurrection against the capital that no one's talking about anymore somehow so you know the lot can change between now and election day and a lot could change between now and the convention and it is what it is but this weekend's gonna suck we gotta shut down the idea to art to article pipeline is the fucking problem.
Per Demsource, live tracking of the debate showed that Trump's support tanked when he said he wouldn't accept the results of the election. Again, not surprising.
There was some good responses for Biden from some Midwest swing voters. I'll take that for what you will.
And then Trump's January 6th and Roe responses were also unpopular. Yes, of course.
Also, Biden just took a few questions from the pool. They asked him how he did tonight.
He said, I think we did well. On calls for him to drop out, whether he has any concerns about his performance, no.
It's hard to debate a liar. The New York Times pointed out he lied 26 times.
On whether he's sick, I have a sore throat. Pool was then quickly ushered out.
Biden going to that watch event, Biden taking these questions, is the first steps you do to address a bad debate performance like this. A signal that they know.
And that we'll see a rally tomorrow. The next 48 hours are going to be fascinating about how everyone else in the party responds and what Biden does.
But it is worth reminding that we're going to hear this from everyone. Why doesn't the DNC go to Biden and tell him this is going to be Joe Biden's decision? Yep.
No one is going to make him do it. No Democrat is going to announce that they're jumping in the race because you can't really do that.
And this is going to be a decision for the president to make. Yep.
And people can counsel him on it. People can counsel him privately, publicly, whatever it may be.
It's his decision. So, all right.
Wish we had a, wish we had a more hope. Hey, one last question.
What gives gives you hope by the way but listen i we were as the debate was winding down and we're all kind of got like our our eyes are kind of bleeding from the side like kind of trying to find different kinds of alcohol to put together i i looked around we're we're in this room we're watching it together we're doing our best to laugh through it and i just like we had a good time we had gummy bears we tried our best we had gummy bears wine and beer and we made the best of it you know what guys we've got a great team french fries we're all gonna get through together you bet everyone hug a lib this weekend hug a lib this weekend would you say we're stronger together we're strong oh all right everyone we will uh we'll talk to you tomorrow night in Boston. Why? Bye, everyone.
If you want to get ad-free episodes, exclusive content, and more, consider joining our Friends of the Pod subscription community at crooked.com slash friends. And if you're already doomscrolling, don't forget to follow us at Pod Save America on Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content, and more.
Plus, if you're as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production.
Our show is produced by Olivia Martinez and David Toledo. Our associate producers are Saul Rubin and Farrah Safari.
Reed Sherlin is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.
Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis.

Writing support by Hallie Kiefer.

Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming.

Matt DeGroat is our head of production.

Andy Taft is our executive assistant.

Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn,

Hayley Jones, Mia Kelman, David Tolles,

Kirill Pellaviv, and Molly Lobel. the Apple App Store or Google Play and enjoy the soundtrack to your life.
Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids' spending with real-time notifications.
Kids learn to earn, save, and spend wisely, and parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight today at

greenlight.com slash podcast.