Why This Democrat Thinks He Can Beat Joe Biden

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Speaker 3 Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm John Favreau.
I'm Dan Pfeiffer. On today's show, Donald Trump puts the big lie at the center of his legal defense strategy.
Joe Biden makes his case in the economy.

Speaker 3 And later, Representative Dean Phillips stopped by the studio to talk with me and Lovett about his long-shot campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination. Lively interview, Dan.

Speaker 3 Lively interview. I heard.

Speaker 4 I heard it described many ways. I'm excited to hear it.

Speaker 3 All right, but first, the battle for second place in the Republican primary just got even more interesting to the hundred or so people paying attention.

Speaker 3 Nikki Haley has nabbed the endorsement of billionaire Charles Koch's Americans for Prosperity Action.

Speaker 3 The Koch network's political arm spent half a billion dollars in 2020, and they're now making a last-ditch effort to help Republicans move on from Trump by backing Haley with a huge ad campaign and thousands of field organizers.

Speaker 3 The group said in a memo that their early state polling shows, quote, growing support for Haley and shrinking support for DeSantis. Hate to see it.

Speaker 3 But both candidates are still 20 to 30 points behind Trump, whose campaign reacted to the news by calling Haley a pro-China open borders globalist bird brain.

Speaker 3 Meanwhile, Haley just launched the first television ad of her campaign. It's part of a $10 million buy in Iowa and New Hampshire.
Here it is.

Speaker 3 How much do you think the Koch endorsement actually matters at this stage in the primary?

Speaker 4 First, I want to stipulate that nothing says more about Republican politics right now, that she doesn't take a side on whether good or evil is bad.

Speaker 4 You just have to be able to distinguish between the two of them.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 She wants to leave herself open to those voters who might be evil, curious. Yeah, just

Speaker 4 which, as it turns out, is a majority of Republican-based voters. That's the right show.

Speaker 4 I will say that it is likely that this Koch endorsement will unlock some additional money for Haley's super PAC, which is great for her consultants who will make even more money making shitty ads like this one.

Speaker 4 Because there are a bunch of

Speaker 4 anti-Trump Republican billionaires who love his tax cuts and cutting regulations, allow him to pollute and kill people more, but are uncomfortable at having to talk to their grandkids at Thanksgiving about all of his racism and embarrassing stupidity.

Speaker 4 And a lot of those people back to Santis. And I think Koch is sending a signal to them saying, it's okay to come in and give money to Haley.
Haley is our best chance, even if it's not a great chance.

Speaker 4 But for voters, you have to have been asleep for the last 10 years of Republican politics to think a billionaire-funded Republic establishment organization endorsement would be anything other than a net negative with actual voters.

Speaker 3 Yeah, like I don't, I mean, and also the Koch network, their positions are, you know, it does align with Haley, but it's part of the, you know, pre-2016 Republican Party.

Speaker 3 They're like for immigration reform, right? They're, and so it's just, they don't really represent the MAGA movement in any way.

Speaker 3 And by that, I mean, like, what voters who like Donald Trump really care about. It's not really aligned with the Koch network.
So you're right. She's going to have a bunch of money now.

Speaker 3 And I think it means more in terms of like the, again, the race for second place than anything else because it just shows more people, more money people are moving away from Ron DeSantis.

Speaker 3 And I do think she's now consolidating the anti-Trump part of the Republican Party, which again is like, you know, a third of the voters and probably a bunch of the donors.

Speaker 4 Just one more note on the Coke network is they have been opposing Trump and Trumpism and Trump candidates since 2015. How's that working for them?

Speaker 3 I mean, good for them for trying, but sort of.

Speaker 3 It's not going that well.

Speaker 3 I'd rather them be doing that than backing Donald Trump, but beyond that. So what's your strategy if you're Nikki Haley's campaign right now? Are you focusing on Trump, DeSantis, both?

Speaker 3 What did you think of that ad?

Speaker 3 I know it's not your cup of tea, but what do you think of the message there?

Speaker 4 Everything that Nikki Haley is doing, including that ad, is evidence that she is not running to defeat Donald Trump for the Republican nomination.

Speaker 4 She is running to be the possible nominee in a post-Trump GOP, whether that is because he gets sent to prison before the convention or in a 2028 race.

Speaker 4 Because the math is very clear that if you really wanted to defeat Donald Trump from Nikki Haley's position, the absolute last thing you would do is attack Ron DeSantis.

Speaker 4 The way to, if Nikki Haley is, as you pointed out, the universe of potential voters for Nikki Haley is like 33% of the electorate.

Speaker 4 So what you need DeSantis and to do is to split the mega vote with trump and that is evident in all of the polling like nbc did this poll at earlier this month where they they asked every republican primary voter their first and second choice unsurprisingly donald trump has 71 of the of first and second vote combined ron desantis has 54 combined and nikki haley is 28 combined so what you need to for haley to succeed she needs some of those people who have trump won desantis two

Speaker 4 to go to DeSantis one, Trump two. But by attacking DeSantis, she's making it easier for Trump to succeed.
So what I would do there is I wouldn't say I would go head on against Trump.

Speaker 4 I would run better versions of this ad. I would try to make myself seem more electable without saying Trump's unelectable.
I would try to consolidate that 33%.

Speaker 4 And then potentially have my now super well-funded super PAC run as attacking DeSantis from the left, saying he's been too tough on immigrants.

Speaker 4 Not he's been too mean to trans kids or he's been too tough on free speech or whatever, cancel culture, whatever else, to be elected.

Speaker 3 Beef up his

Speaker 3 MAGA credentials.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 3 I mean, look, this is all a long shot, but what she's doing is stipulated. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Like, I mean, the longest of long shot, right? This is like Hail Mary from the three-yard line, but what she's doing is clearly not. a plan to be to come in first.

Speaker 4 It's a plan to come in second in the hopes that number one goes to jail.

Speaker 3 So I don't, I mean, up until now, I don't, I assumed that she was attacking DeSantis because, I don't know, he was in her sights, right? Like he was punchable. He was very punchable.
Right.

Speaker 3 And punchable and he's second place. And she, now that she's firmly in second place, I would expect her, if she does want to win, to not attack DeSantis and to sort of go after Trump.

Speaker 3 I also expect, like, I'm wondering if in this next debate, she'll...

Speaker 3 I would expect her to get a little bit more MAGA because now she, so that NBC poll that you cited, you you know, it shows that her first and second choice voters are disproportionately college-educated and moderate.

Speaker 3 So, again, she's consolidating the anti-Trump wing of the party.

Speaker 3 To the extent that she gained on DeSantis, it was mostly moderate to liberal Republican voters, or people who call themselves moderate to liberal who are Republican voters, and college-educated voters.

Speaker 3 So, that's what he lost and she gained.

Speaker 3 But now, if she wants to dip into that, again, there's the 30% that's the hardcore MAGA base, but that 30% in the middle that likes Trump but is willing to entertain alternatives.

Speaker 3 If she wants them, she's got to be careful of not appearing to

Speaker 3 globalist rhino, which is what the Trump people are now trying to define her as. And Ron DeSantis is going to try to define her as.
So I would bet that in the next debate,

Speaker 3 you have to imagine DeSantis is going to start attacking her.

Speaker 3 It's going to be tempting for her to get into a back and forth with DeSantis, but she also probably wants to take on Trump a little bit at that debate.

Speaker 3 But she also wants to keep the MAGA people happy.

Speaker 3 So I don't, I think she's, this is why this is a bigger structural issue for for any of these candidates more than about their individual personality and strategy, because they're just trapped in this party that is in the thrall of Donald Trump.

Speaker 4 They're right. That's look, look, it is, this is nearly impossible under all these ways.
And this was always Trump's to lose. And he tried really hard and still can lose it.

Speaker 4 But there are better strategies than the one she's employing, which is why I think she's going for second.

Speaker 3 I think she just doesn't know what she's like. I think she's going to, I think she wants to win.

Speaker 3 I think she's still thinking, like, if I can pass DeSantis DeSantis in Iowa, then in New Hampshire, maybe the Republican electorate is a little more anti-Trump, moderate, independent, college-educated than in Iowa.

Speaker 3 So maybe she can win New Hampshire or maybe she gets just a close second in New Hampshire, and then she bets it all on South Carolina.

Speaker 3 Which brings me to... Who thinks pull out of Iowa? Oh, you think pull out of Iowa?

Speaker 4 It worked for John McCain.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And then what happened? So let's talk about South Carolina because the polls show her trailing Trump by double digits in her home state where where she served as governor.

Speaker 3 The pro-Trump super PAC, Tony Fabrizio, Trump's longtime pollster. So take it for a grain of salt, but just did a poll there in South Carolina.
53 Trump, 24 Haley, 11 DeSantis.

Speaker 3 But then when you do a head-to-head of just Trump versus Haley, which it could be by the time we get to South Carolina, Trump wins 64-31. So he expands his lead.

Speaker 3 For the exact DeSantis reason we talked about. Yeah, do you think it's like possible if she wins New Hampshire to turn those numbers around by the time she gets to South Carolina?

Speaker 3 It is a month that she has in between.

Speaker 4 I mean, she'd be much better off if it was 10 days instead of a month.

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah, because then

Speaker 3 the bird brain really sticks. Well, you just.

Speaker 4 Look, that is the sleeping giant of this campaign.

Speaker 3 The bird brain.

Speaker 4 If she were to defeat Trump in New Hampshire, she would have a huge burst of momentum. Whether that's enough or not, we don't know.
But

Speaker 4 over time in all Republican politics for the last in the era of trump it all reverts back to the mean always and so a month is an eternity for her she'd be better off if it was very quick could she do it we just there's never been a tested proposition what happens when trump loses a race he's supposed to win right right and when you have we have we these are not these are imperfect analogies i would have stated that clearly but hillary clinton in 2008 had a mantle of inevitability until she was no longer inevitable and the bottom fell out very quickly could the same thing happen with trump maybe maybe not but

Speaker 4 that's the only hope Haley has.

Speaker 3 It's also,

Speaker 3 it depends on how he loses too, because you could imagine him losing the New Hampshire primary, saying that it was rigged, starting to say that the election was stolen again.

Speaker 3 And suddenly you get a bunch of Republican voters who are like, you know, I like the guy, but this is going to, we're going to deal with this again. And she just won.

Speaker 4 You have to lose by enough that.

Speaker 4 By a margin that is big enough that people won't really think it was stolen, but small enough that Trump would still argue it was stolen.

Speaker 3 Like, that's a real sweet spot right right there. Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 3 Well, because the Republican Party is totally normal, Haley still can't get any traction against the guy who's currently battling 91 felony charges.

Speaker 3 This week, Trump's lawyers filed a new defense motion in D.C.

Speaker 3 federal court that argues their client had a legitimate good faith basis to question the results of the election he's charged with trying to overturn.

Speaker 3 To prove this, they're requesting classified information from the Department of Justice that they say will help prove that the election may, in fact, have been rigged.

Speaker 3 So, Dan, they're going like full whack job on this one. They're saying maybe the deep state did it.
Maybe there was foreign interference. Ironic.

Speaker 3 They bring up Hunter Biden's case in this filing.

Speaker 3 They bring up Mike Pence taking classified documents in that case because they're basically saying, oh, Mike Pence's testimony that is incredibly damning to Donald Trump, which they are guessing it is, and the reports have suggested that as well, that maybe Mike Pence just lied to investigators because he was trying to curry favor with the DOJ so they wouldn't charge him with the classified documents.

Speaker 3 That's the bank shot they're taking on Mike Pence. I certainly can't speak to the wisdom of this legal strategy, though I do have my doubts.
But what do you

Speaker 3 do?

Speaker 3 Do you have your doubts? Well, we can talk about that. What do you think about this as a political strategy?

Speaker 4 As you know, I'm someone who often swims in the dark end of the pool when it comes to optimism. And nothing has made me more hopeful about 2024 than this article.

Speaker 3 The idea.

Speaker 4 Well, the idea that Donald Trump would use the most high-profile moment of this campaign, because it's arguable that the handful of days of Donald Trump's January 6th trial, were it to happen on schedule, would be as big a news event as the convention speeches and the debates, and that he would use that to argue his insane election conspiracy theory, which is a net negative for him with the overall electorate, is such a gift for Democrats, I can hardly take it.

Speaker 3 Don't you think that everyone already knows that Trump is an election denier and that it's sort of baked into his approval ratings?

Speaker 3 And yes, the trial will remind them of that, but either way, the trial was going to remind them of that because the whole trial is about him trying to overturn the election and denying what happened.

Speaker 4 I mean, there are two ways that this is argued, right? One is that they can't convict him and he didn't really try to overturn the election.

Speaker 4 The other one is I tried to overturn the election because the election was stolen.

Speaker 4 And here's all my crazy ideas for why the election was stolen, which is what they're essentially saying they're going to do. And then there's one of other two theories of the overall election.

Speaker 4 One is people have a great memory of what it's like to have Donald Trump as president. They have not forgotten it.
They have then compared it to what they think of Joe Biden as president.

Speaker 4 They've decided they now like Trump more than ever before.

Speaker 3 Or

Speaker 4 there is some sort of

Speaker 4 amnesia, absence has made the heart grow slightly fonder among some segment of the electorate. If that's the case, this is a great reminder of why everyone turned on Trump.

Speaker 4 And so that I think that matters a lot. And the polling on this is very clear, right? In that New York Times poll that everyone loves to hate, they actually ran this very smart experiment.

Speaker 3 Not me, not me, Dan. You know how much I love the New York Times polls.
Are you?

Speaker 4 I saw someone use this one on our Slack.

Speaker 3 Are you a conehead? You're a conehead. I'm a cone head.

Speaker 3 Not being sarcastic. You know how I feel about them.
They're big polls. They're not infallible, but they're some of the best people.

Speaker 4 I am also a conehead. Put it in the merch store, people.

Speaker 4 But they ran this experiment where they tested a generic anti-Trump Democrat against two versions of Republican.

Speaker 4 One who said the election was stolen and one who said that we should move on from the election was one fair and square and we should move on from 2020.

Speaker 4 That latter one, the one who accepted the election results, did 12 points better than the election denying Republican. And so Trump is somewhat unique in this.

Speaker 4 He's not a generic Republican, but anytime he's talking about the election being stolen is good for Democrats.

Speaker 3 There is a little bit of nuance to the legal strategy that I think is worth talking about when you sort of dig through the filing.

Speaker 3 What they're trying to persuade the jury of is not necessarily that the election was definitely stolen, but that Trump at least had reason to question all the people working for him and all the people in the federal government who told him it wasn't stolen.

Speaker 3 And so, and they're going to allege political bias.

Speaker 3 And so they are doing what Trump always likes to do, which is just like fuzz up the truth so people don't know what to believe and tell the jury, look, I'm sure they'll say to to the jury, you don't have to think that the election was stolen to think that Donald Trump is innocent of what they're charging him.

Speaker 3 All he was trying to do is say that there were reasons to question the results and he just wanted to continue questioning them right up to the last minute because he genuinely thought from X report or this report that, you know, there was going to be foreign interference or this or that, that there might be a chance that it was stolen.

Speaker 3 And, you know, we can all move on from the fact that the election happened and Joe Biden's the president, but at least he had, at least he had the reason, at least he had good reason to question what happened.

Speaker 4 That is a theory. I'm not sure that's a legal theory.

Speaker 4 Doesn't comport with the law, which does not.

Speaker 4 If you erroneously think the bank has $10,000 of your money, you can't go to the bank and steal it.

Speaker 3 Correct. Correct.

Speaker 3 So there are

Speaker 4 citizens of speed.

Speaker 4 Like, yes, I don't think that I do not believe at the end of the day, a man who very much does not want to go to jail jail is going to have his lawyers go up there and instead of trying to find real ways to defend him, just present, you know, have the cyber ninjas testify, right?

Speaker 3 I don't think that's going to be what happens here.

Speaker 3 The ghost of Hugo Chavez. Yes.
Yes.

Speaker 4 I don't think it's going to be that it's not going to be that funny, but

Speaker 4 the, if the thrust of it is the election was really stolen, because Trump may insist they make some part of that case, even if it's just sort of on top of the other legal theories.

Speaker 4 That is for, from a political perspective, like I said, said, we can't speak to the legal part, although we'd be willing to if people would take it seriously.

Speaker 3 The

Speaker 4 is different than the federal government is persecuting me because of my political views.

Speaker 3 Well, it's also that's the political strategy too. And part of the legal strategy here is going to be they are persecuting me for my political views.

Speaker 3 They uh they know damn well that there was reason to question the election results, but it was all a conspiracy by the deep state and now the Biden administration, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 3 That's all they want. That's the political strategy.
And it's also the other part of the legal strategy here is, remember, they're asking for a bunch of classified information.

Speaker 3 Slow it down. So if a judge granted that, they could slow it down, right? And I don't think it presumably she won't grant this crazy request, but maybe then they appeal it.

Speaker 3 And the whole game here is to delay, delay, delay, because they know they have now successfully done that in his classified documents case in Florida, thanks to Judge Cannon.

Speaker 3 Although there was some interesting news on that.

Speaker 3 ABC reported yesterday that a Trump attorney told prosecutors that she warned him, quote, it's going to be a crime if he refused to comply with the subpoena for the classified documents.

Speaker 3 And he said he understood. He is so lucky that he has Judge Cannon in that case because that to me, again, not a lawyer, but is the most like

Speaker 3 legally open and shut case of all of them. Oh, for sure.
Like, hey, you're sent a subpoena. You have to comply.
Otherwise, you go to jail. Lawyer tells client.
Client says, I get it.

Speaker 3 No, I'm not complying.

Speaker 4 And also, you can't classify that you're done in the White House and you take classified documents to the White House and they find them in your possession.

Speaker 3 You're done.

Speaker 3 God, I hope she doesn't. I mean, we don't know when that trial is going to end up.
We know it's going to probably be pushed from May, but I don't know. Maybe

Speaker 3 September, maybe right around the debates. Maybe it's on the 2025 plan.
We don't know.

Speaker 3 Trump also launched a national campaign ad this week attacking President Biden on the Afghanistan withdrawal. Let's take a listen.

Speaker 7 As commander-in-chief, he always had had his soldiers' backs,

Speaker 7 was always there to support them and their families. He kept his promise to keep them out of endless wars and to never forget about them after they served.

Speaker 7 America learned having a weak leader can tragically lead to American deaths, which is why America needs strength now more than ever.

Speaker 3 So I have to admit, when I heard the first couple lines of that ad, I almost started laughing just because I thought it was like a parody because it was like the

Speaker 3 service members know that Donald Trump has always had their back.

Speaker 3 It was like the guy who attacked gold star families, who said he didn't want to be photographed with wounded veterans because he was uncomfortable, who attacked John McCain both when he was alive and after he died,

Speaker 3 and attacked specifically his service. I mean, it's ridiculous.
But obviously there was a reason to air that, and it was partly because of, I guess, the Biden part of it.

Speaker 3 But what did you think of that ad?

Speaker 4 I think it is one of the least subtle, most explicit, and probably effective ads I've seen in a while. Donald Trump believes he is going to win this race on strength versus weakness.

Speaker 4 That is how he thinks about everything in life, right? It is power dynamics. And this is largely, sorry, Elijah, an audio medium still.

Speaker 4 And so most people didn't see the ad, but one of the things is Biden falling, tripping up the stairs of Air Force One, right, too. Which is, this has been the strategy for years.
Checking his watch.

Speaker 4 Checking his watch. That is an Easter egg for the true megaheads.
Like you have to really know what that is, like to know where he is, what's happening. But like for

Speaker 3 the real viewers of the five, they got that and they're like proud of it.

Speaker 4 But for most people, it's Biden seem is to make Biden seem old and weak and Donald Trump strong.

Speaker 4 I also think it's an acknowledgement that, and we've seen this in polling before, that the stuff Donald Trump did and has said around veterans, particularly in the run-up to the election, the stories that were in the Atlantic about what he said about John Kelly's son, who was killed in the war,

Speaker 4 were damaging. And Trump did worse with voters in veteran households in 2020 and 2016 by a number sufficient enough to decide the election.
And so I do think there is some sort of

Speaker 4 just trying to address that weakness heading into the general.

Speaker 4 And then lastly, and this is a very tactical thing that Trump does, is whenever there's a Republican debate, he acts like he's running in the general election against Biden.

Speaker 4 So he's running a general election national ad the week of the debate to show that he is not thinking at all about Ron DeSantis, Nikki Haley. He's focused on Biden.

Speaker 3 He's also doing a Hannity town hall in Iowa the day before, the night before the debate as well. So I'm sure that'll be mostly focused on Biden there too.
No, I mean, it's

Speaker 3 everyone who rightly gets annoyed that

Speaker 3 we're not talking about Donald Trump's age. We're just talking about Joe Biden's age, and Donald Trump's only three years younger.
It's really not,

Speaker 3 this ad proves that they're not trying to make it necessarily about age. They are trying to make it, they're trying frailness and weakness leads to chaos and destruction.
That's it.

Speaker 3 That's like the whole, that's the whole message from the Trump campaign. It leads to instability at home.
It leads to look at the world's a mess. You're feeling that the world's a mess.

Speaker 3 You're feeling everything's crazy. And it's all chaotic.
And because Joe Biden is weak and frail, that's why this is happening. And Donald Trump is a strong man.
And so he will fix it all.

Speaker 3 And it also, you know, as we heard in Nikki Haley's ad, one of the attacks against Trump that does seem to stick is that he leads to chaos.

Speaker 3 So this is, again, Trump trying to fuzz up his own weakness and vulnerability by making it Joe Biden's as well. You think I'm chaos?

Speaker 3 Joe Biden's also chaos, but for him, it's because he's weak and I'm strong.

Speaker 3 What do you think the Biden people do about that kind of ad? I mean, they don't respond to it, but like the general message that they're trying to...

Speaker 4 Is, I mean, it's what the thrust of the entire campaign is.

Speaker 4 It is Joe Biden has to pass a threshold for voters that who are concerned about his age, that he has the capacity and the vigor and the strength to do the job, not just right now, but for the next four years.

Speaker 4 And that's what the campaign is going to be about. That's what the State of the Union is about.
That is what the convention speech is about. That's what the debates are about.

Speaker 4 Like, I hope that in the ads that the Biden campaign runs, you see a lot of Joe Biden talking. Right.

Speaker 4 And that is not going to be as persuasive to swing voters as in terms of messaging as vote as ads that have real people telling stories.

Speaker 4 But the people who are going to decide this election, as we talked about a thousand times on this podcast, do not engage with political news. So they never see Joe Biden speaking.

Speaker 4 So we're going to have to, they're going to have to, in their ads, pay to show people that. And so that's all what it's about.
It's not like respond to this specific ad.

Speaker 4 And I also think there's a redefinition of strength, both in how you talk about Trump and making him seem weak and making him seem like a weak, scared bully who picks on people, who divides people, and defining...

Speaker 4 strength on what he's accomplished, what he's gone through in his life, what he's dealt with, how he's managed these crises is you're going to have to narrow the gap on that and show that you can be strong and decent, right?

Speaker 4 And not a bully and an asshole, which is sort of what the contrast is. And that's kind of what it was in 2020.
And Biden did it very, very well.

Speaker 4 He's going to have to redo that with more baggage this time because people have

Speaker 4 care a lot more about his age now than they did then, according to polls.

Speaker 3 And because he's an incumbent, not a challenger. And we like to blame everything on the incumbent president.

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Speaker 3 Speaking of Joe Biden, he hit the road this week to speak about what most voters say is the number one issue most important to them in 2024: the economy.

Speaker 3 Since most voters also disapprove of the way Joe Biden's handling the economy and think that Donald Trump would do a better job, the president is stepping up his attempts to make sure people know about his long list of significant economic accomplishments.

Speaker 3 He visited a wind turbine manufacturer that's creating 850 jobs thanks to the Inflation Reduction Act.

Speaker 3 It also happened to be in the Colorado district of avid theatergoer Lauren Boebert, who Biden pointed out voted against these jobs. Let's listen.

Speaker 11 The historic investments we're celebrating today is in Congressman

Speaker 11 Boebert's district.

Speaker 10 She's one of the leaders of this extreme mega movement. She, along with every single Republican colleague, voted against the law that made these investments in jobs possible.

Speaker 10 And that's not hyperbole, that's a fact.

Speaker 10 And then she voted to repeal key parts of this law. And she called this law a massive failure.

Speaker 10 You all know you're part of a massive failure.

Speaker 10 Tell that to the 850 Colorados to get new jobs in Pueblo and CS Wynn thanks to this law. Across Colorado, Xcel Energy is investing $1.7 billion

Speaker 11 to improve the state's electric grid. And folks, none of that sounds like a massive failure to me.

Speaker 10 How about you?

Speaker 3 He always needs like the first couple seconds to sort of warm up.

Speaker 3 Like by the end, he's sounding like, you know, he's like pounding the fist. It sounded like he's fighting.
At the beginning, it's always like, come on, get there, get there, get there.

Speaker 4 Honestly, me too.

Speaker 3 Same as this podcast.

Speaker 4 Sometimes I just have to have some conversations with Hallie right before this just to kind of get the windpipe moving first.

Speaker 3 You guys do PSA warm-up in your house.

Speaker 3 So earlier in the week, Biden also went after corporations for using inflation as an excuse to price gouge, which, as you know, is one of my favorite things to do, despite all the

Speaker 3 nerds. No,

Speaker 3 attacking corporations. Despite all the fucking nerds who are like, oh, it's not the price gouging that's leading to inflation that we have to deal with.
Anyway, not to.

Speaker 3 I just can't begin it.

Speaker 4 This is like the third podcast in a row. You've somehow turned this into a classic jocks versus nerds battle where you somehow think we're not also nerds.

Speaker 3 Like never, never been a jock in my life.

Speaker 3 Anyway, what did you make of both those events?

Speaker 4 I love the price gouging argument, right? Let's put there, we do not have to have a... epistemological argument about the origins of inflation, but it is very important.

Speaker 4 Like one of our advantages, and there aren't that many advantages right now for Democrats in the economy, is that Republicans is seen as being more corporate friendly than Democrats.

Speaker 4 And those are very suspicious of corporations. So we should lean into that.
And this is one way to do that.

Speaker 4 You don't have to say that price gouging is the, and Joe Biden does not, because he has very able economic staff who would never let him do this.

Speaker 4 Nerds, if you will, who would let him do this say that that's the sole reason.

Speaker 4 But price gouging is clearly happening because the prices went up, the costs of the materials and labor have gone down, but the price the consumers are paying has not gone down.

Speaker 4 And so they are, they're profiteering off of this initial rise in

Speaker 4 goods. So I think that is very good.
There is some tension, I think, in the messaging here, which is

Speaker 4 I love going to Lauren Boebert's district. That is the right thing to do because we are, that is going to just get more attention from the media than if you went to some other district, right?

Speaker 4 Some member of Congress no one had ever heard of. And getting attention has to be job number one for every single thing Biden does.

Speaker 4 There is a little bit of look at all we've done here, which I think is at a tension with also acknowledging that people aren't super happy with the way things are. So you have to then make the turn.

Speaker 4 And there was a little bit of this in the remarks, but it wasn't in the sound bites that got picked up. Is we did these things.
Here's what's going to come next if we have four more years.

Speaker 4 And all this stuff's going to be taken away. If the other people get elected, right? That contrast has to be inherent in all of this.

Speaker 3 Yes. Well, the Washington Post had a piece.

Speaker 3 uh we're gonna talk about this on offline this week as well i could i have me on because i could talk about this piece for a year i have so many thoughts i have uh jeff's i'm talking to jeff stein tomorrow uh what is today i got a i got a tomorrow i got a bone to pick with jeff stein about this one oh god are you one of those people

Speaker 4 and one of those people who think that one of those people who think that everyone would be entirely happy with their economic personal financial situation if they didn't watch tick tock those people

Speaker 3 oh you're one of those people

Speaker 3 that's not what the piece says no i'm just teasing

Speaker 4 Jeff Sign is great. Jeff Sign is great.

Speaker 3 Yes. Yeah.
No, they got unfairly maligned for this piece. Anyway, but basically, for people who are like, what are they talking about?

Speaker 3 The piece is about how there is this viral TikTok about the fact that there's a $16 McDonald's order.

Speaker 3 And if you look at TikTok and you look at social media, there is just all of this real negative information about the economy.

Speaker 3 And some senior Democrats and folks in the White House and economists are saying that the reason that people are upset about the economy is because the vibes are bad.

Speaker 3 and the vibes are bad because of the way that the media covers it, what's on social media, etc.

Speaker 3 There's a lot of other economists in the piece and other people who are like, no, no, no, no, the economy, people are feeling like the economy is bad because even though there are great economic statistics on GDP growth and consumer spending and all the rest, and inflation has come down, blah, blah, blah, prices are still high.

Speaker 3 The cost of living is still high for people, particularly if you're trying to buy a house, rent an apartment.

Speaker 3 All of these things are weighing on most people in this country, and that is very real. So that's the piece.

Speaker 3 And then it also reports that Biden's team has been debating whether they should still try to sell his economic accomplishments or focus on drawing contrasts with Trump and Republicans.

Speaker 3 I just don't think this is a debate.

Speaker 3 I mean,

Speaker 3 why?

Speaker 3 And someone said, I guess it wasn't someone in the White House. It was a Democratic strategist, of course, who has been talking to the White House.

Speaker 3 They were like, why would we keep banging our head against the wall, doing the same thing and expecting a different result? And I agree.

Speaker 3 Like, it's just, you cannot just keep selling the accomplishments. People are not going to be like, oh, God, the Chips Act.
Of course. Of course.

Speaker 3 Supply chains. Oh, the supply chains have been fixed.
Of course.

Speaker 3 The contrasts are the best. And he's at his best when he's talking about the contrasts.
And I realize that some of these are official events, but like, hey, guess what? The campaign has started.

Speaker 3 And Donald Trump's probably going to be the nominee. 98% sure of that.

Speaker 3 Therefore, we got to start doing more events and have more messaging that's about the, like you just said, the difference between Democrats and Republicans. I would,

Speaker 3 and I think that they'll probably will, but I would make the entire state of the union, except for the foreign policy part you got to do, I would make most of the state of the union about an agenda focused on bringing down the cost of living.

Speaker 3 You know, introduce bills if you have to, hold events, say that it would pass with the Democratic House.

Speaker 3 You can say that the economy is growing, inflation is coming down but costs are still too high because we have republicans who would rather let rich tax cheats off the hook than bring costs down for most families and here's all the reasons why they want another corporate tax cut trump wants to get rid of the affordable care act they want to gut medicare and social security here's what we want to do here's my agenda to bring costs down for people paying for college for people trying to buy a house for people trying to rent an apartment for people trying to care for their children this is my agenda and this is is their agenda.

Speaker 3 And you just do it like over and over and over again.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 4 So three

Speaker 4 pieces of general advice for Democrats on this. One,

Speaker 4 we do have to meet people where they are on the economy.

Speaker 4 I know that

Speaker 4 we're in this very binary debate where it's either the economy is great and people would only realize it if TikTok and the

Speaker 4 CNN would tell more positive stories about the economy, or those things don't matter.

Speaker 4 And the truth, what I think, and I think was the actual point of the original Jeff Stein Taylor Renz piece that has generated so much controversy, is

Speaker 4 what's happening in social media and in the news is making the problem of the economy worse, but it's not the problem.

Speaker 4 The problem is that people have real economic anxiety having to do with the fact that they feel like their paychecks are not going far enough to make ends meet because costs of things, particularly like groceries, are up.

Speaker 4 And it's very elitist to think that if people would just get off TikTok, they would all of a sudden understand that their bank account is great. Like people are not stupid.

Speaker 4 The economy is the most important thing in their life, whether they can put food on the table for their family, save for college, et cetera.

Speaker 4 So this idea that they could be tricked into thinking it's bad when it's really good is the worst, just the worst impulses of like Beltway political consultant thinking.

Speaker 4 Second, stop saying the word inflation.

Speaker 4 It means nothing to anyone. Don't go around saying inflation is down.
People do not understand that inflation is the rate of increase. They think inflation means costs are higher.

Speaker 4 So if you say inflation is down, yet the costs are still high,

Speaker 4 they think you're lying to them and full of shit. So we need to reframe our agenda around, as you said, a series of things that lower costs and raise wages, right? Lower costs, higher wages.

Speaker 4 Like that should be the centerpiece of the whole thing. That should be what is in the state of the union.
That should be what we talk about.

Speaker 4 That should, we should frame the Republican agenda, which you can very credibly do as something that would raise costs.

Speaker 3 Cost you more. It will cost you more.

Speaker 4 They are going to, one of the first things they would do is repeal the Inflation Reduction Act, which would mean that Medicare can no longer negotiate prescription drugs.

Speaker 4 The price of insulin will go up. They're going to give huge tax cuts to the corporations.
They're going to turn around and give it to wealthy investors. And they're going to raise your costs again.

Speaker 4 They oppose the minimum wage. They oppose allowing workers to organize.
Like that's the agenda we have to assign to them.

Speaker 3 And you are right.

Speaker 3 And for Biden, again, when people are like, well, then why haven't you done that the last four years? Send me a Democratic House. Send me Democratic senators and we will pass this agenda.

Speaker 3 Send me the, like, just do it that way.

Speaker 4 And this is the short-term, like, you are right. Like, it's, does it make sense right now for Joe Biden to go out and attack Donald Trump every single event, every day?

Speaker 3 Not every event.

Speaker 4 No, but it's also impossible to do when you're president because of the hatch.

Speaker 4 And so what do you do instead? You pick a big fight with the Republican House embodied by Mike Johnson, a deeply controversial, largely unpopular figure.

Speaker 4 People get to know him, that wants to shut down the government to do things that will raise your costs, right? They want to cut Medicare, all those things. Like you have a foil.

Speaker 4 Go use that foil until the moment you can dedicate all of your time to Donald Trump. Contrast at every moment.

Speaker 4 Someone asks you how the economy is, you answer by saying how Republicans will make it worse.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And I don't think that Biden has to necessarily win on the question of who will handle the economy better, Trump or Biden, right?

Speaker 3 We know that Obama won re-election in 2012, even though exit poll said people by a few points thought Mitt Romney would be better at handling the economy, but Obama still won.

Speaker 3 But I think he does need to win in terms of questions like who's on your side, Donald Trump or Joe Biden, who's fighting for you, Donald Trump or Joe Biden, who's fighting for the middle class, Donald Trump or Joe Biden.

Speaker 3 Joe Biden wins on those questions. He has a much better shot at winning the election.

Speaker 4 There's this sort of school of thought running around that because Democrats outperformed in the midterms in 2023 despite a bad economy that the same thing will happen in 2024 and that is just there is no precedent for that in history reason number one is people do not think their senators in charge of the economy they may take their anger out on the party in charge if the economy if they're unhappy with the economy but there were not people sitting there going man do worried about inflation is john fedterman gonna go vote for the right thing or dr oz they just don't that's not how they think about the senate and the house in any way shape or form they that is how they they think about the president.

Speaker 4 And once again, for you coneheads out there, in that New York Times poll, they asked people what's more important, social issues? Like specifically they listed guns, democracy, and abortion.

Speaker 4 And they asked the question that way so that people on both sides would think about it, right? Because if you could be a right-wing person who cares about guns and abortion, right?

Speaker 4 Or economic issues like jobs, costs, et cetera. Economic issues won by a huge margin and by a much larger margin among people who did not vote in 2022.

Speaker 3 That's the key. That's the key.

Speaker 3 I'm sure if you did that with the 2022 electorate or people who showed up in special elections,

Speaker 3 you'd find Democrats caring more about abortion and democracy among the, because these are highly college educated voters who are probably doing well.

Speaker 4 And by and they, and they think about politics all the time. And so they think about the other stuff.

Speaker 4 This has been true for a long time, but if you like are looking at a sliding scale political engagement, engagement, the less engaged voters tend to be with political news, like whether they watch cable news, whether they listen to podcasts like this, how much they think about politics.

Speaker 4 Do they vote in midterms? Do they vote in primaries? So the less engaged they are, the more economically concerned they are, right? Compared to the other issues.

Speaker 4 That has been true for a very long time, and it's particularly true in the moment we're currently in.

Speaker 3 All right. Two quick housekeeping notes before we go to break.

Speaker 3 Hysteria's Erin Ryan sat down with our pal Chrissy Teigen to talk about her personal journey with abortion, the impact of abortion bans, and the importance of reproductive health advocacy.

Speaker 3 It's a fantastic conversation with Aaron and Chrissy. You can watch the full conversation on Hysteria's YouTube page.
And also, Pods of America is down to our last two live shows of the year.

Speaker 3 We'll be in El Cajon on December 7th with co-host Sam Sanders, and San Jose on December 13th with co-host Edisu Demessi. Grab your tickets at cricket.com/slash events.

Speaker 3 When we come back, Lovett and I talk to Minnesota Representative and Democratic presidential candidate Dean Phillips.

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Speaker 3 Joining me and Lovett in the studio today, he's represented Minnesota's third district since 2019 and is currently running for president in the Democratic primary against incumbent Joe Biden.

Speaker 3 Representative Dean Phillips, welcome to the pod. Good morning, guys.
Good to be with you. So just want to start by saying I completely share your anxiety about a Biden-Trump race.

Speaker 3 I do not dismiss the polls.

Speaker 3 And I'm not sold on the argument that a primary challenge would necessarily weaken Biden in a general or the argument that Joe Biden is the only person in the country who could beat Donald Trump.

Speaker 3 But you have always been very complimentary and supportive of Joe Biden and his agenda. You voted with them 100% of the time.

Speaker 3 So is the only reason you're running because you're worried about the polls and otherwise you're basically like a 54-year-old Joe Biden? Oh, that's painful.

Speaker 3 No, and you know, there's this kind of conventional wisdom that if you're running in a race, that you somehow are opposing somebody, or you want to defeat them, or you want to demean them, or you want to ruin them.

Speaker 3 That's not what this is about. You know,

Speaker 3 can I start by just telling you a little about my background? Because I think,

Speaker 3 and here's why this, to answer your question, I think in a way that is more meaningful. You know, I lost my dad in Vietnam when I was six months old, and he had no money growing up in St.

Speaker 3 Paul, Minnesota. His dad, my grandfather, died when he was a little boy, and he had to earn an ROTC scholarship to go to the University of Minnesota Law School.

Speaker 3 And he sent to Vietnam right before I was born, and he was killed in a helicopter crash in Plei Ku when I was six months old. And it was a few days after the moon landing.

Speaker 3 And I think about him looking up at the moon and seeing America at its very, very best. and looking down at his boots in Vietnam and seeing us at our very, very worst.

Speaker 3 And I think we're still facing those choices right now. Which America do we want to be?

Speaker 3 And I got very lucky. My mom was 24 and widowed, and I had to live with my great-grandparents for three years when I was just a kid.

Speaker 3 And my mom met and remarried a wonderful man who adopted me into a family filled with blessings. And I got lucky.
You know, I was a fortunate son. And I've lived on both sides of advantage.

Speaker 3 And I grew up recognizing how darn lucky I was. And, you know, went into business after a while and had some success.
In 2016, I'm watching the election, just like you guys and the whole country.

Speaker 3 Never imagined in a million years that life would never be the same the next morning. And it was.
And I woke up the next morning to my daughter crying in her bedroom.

Speaker 3 And she had just recovered from Hotchkin's lymphoma. And she's a gay woman.
I didn't know that at the time. And

Speaker 3 she was crying. She was in fear.
And I did not ever expect in this country, as a dad to those daughters of mine, that I'd see my daughter so afraid to be an American.

Speaker 3 And I sat at the breakfast table that morning and I promised them I would do something. And I ran for Congress and I flipped a seat that had been red

Speaker 3 years, beat a guy who had won by 14 points that night in 2016,

Speaker 3 and felt that, you know, my father gave his life to the country. And if I was just going to observe and watch and sit back and trust others and hand the keys, that I wasn't doing my duty.

Speaker 3 And I didn't raise my daughters to be observers. I raised them to be participants.
And that's what I'm doing again. You know, Donald Trump inspired me to get off the couch, you know, to stand up and

Speaker 3 resist. But more than resist, to lead.
And here he is again, six years later, seven years later, going to return to the White House. At least that's my opinion, you know, supported by the polls.

Speaker 3 Are they absolute? Absolutely not. I know that.

Speaker 3 And I know you guys have been a little less than complimentary of me, and I understand that too.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 I do want you to know, I know schnoo slash this goes out, but I got to tell you, you know, I'm doing what I did in 2017 when I ran for Congress.

Speaker 3 I'm trying to resist what I consider to be an existential threat to the country. It's not about that.
It's about winning. It's about winning and defeating Donald Trump.

Speaker 3 And in the absence of a candidate in the Democratic primary, better positioned to do so. By the way, it may be me.
It might be somebody else. But my contention is it is not Joe Biden.
That's all.

Speaker 3 And that's why I've been asking so many others to enter the race. I called Gretchen Whitmer.
I called J.B. Pritzker.
I did a public call for Kamala Harris, for Gavin Newsom, anybody. Enter the race.

Speaker 3 The water's warm. That's what you do in democracy.
But to sit back and sleepwalk into another 2016 when this time we know,

Speaker 3 and this time I know, I wasn't going to sit down and shush up and get back in line in an institution that almost requires it. And that's why I'm doing this.

Speaker 3 If we woke up next month, there's a new New York Times Sienna poll, a bunch of other polls that suddenly show Joe Biden's numbers have improved and that he's beating Donald Trump, would you stay in the race?

Speaker 3 I'm going to stay in the race until early next summer when the polls really matter. Because, you know, the contention is right now, hey, it's a year ahead of the race.
They don't really matter now.

Speaker 3 Well, they do matter because of this. The filing deadlines are passing quickly.
California was yesterday, right?

Speaker 3 You can't get into this race at a certain point. So I think having a reasonable alternative in the Democratic Democratic primary is healthy.
It's not about, that's all.

Speaker 3 So to answer your question very directly, no, I'm not going to drop out if there's a poll that showed, by the way, the most recent approval numbers came out this morning.

Speaker 3 The lowest in his presidency, again, 37%.

Speaker 3 So do I, first of all, I don't think that hypothetical is going to be a reality.

Speaker 3 But even if it is, I'm going to hang in there until next summer when the polls, head-to-head polls, come out, the ones that really matter.

Speaker 3 And then if he is ahead of Donald Trump and I'm behind, my goodness, I'd drop out in a heartbeat and I will do everything I I humanly can to ensure that he is re-elected.

Speaker 3 Conversely, I would ask him if he's still in the race then, that if I'm ahead and he's behind, that he consider doing the same thing because that's what this is about.

Speaker 3 We don't want to be a cult of personality like the other guys. That's the problem right now.

Speaker 3 What are some of the big decisions or actions Biden has taken over the last few years that you disagree with?

Speaker 3 I wouldn't say there's any actions I've disagreed with. I would say it's there's so much more to do.
And I'll tell you what is completely unaddressed is affordability.

Speaker 3 By the way, great macroeconomic numbers again today, and I celebrate him for it. But the fact of the matter is that that is not translating to people who are really suffering right now.

Speaker 3 You know, with the disparities in income and wealth as graphic and wide and growing as any time in our history, which we all know ultimately leads to the demise of democracies, these are existential threats.

Speaker 3 It's not just Donald Trump. It's the lack of action in certain areas.
And again, we can have a long conversation about, I support the president. There are areas that I differ with him.

Speaker 3 There's no question. But there's nothing that he has done to which I've taken exception.
I do think there's a lot more to do, and it's going to take a new generation.

Speaker 3 And by the way, do you think he could have done more on affordability? I do believe, yes. Like what? What do you think he could have done? First of all,

Speaker 3 let me start with the tax code. So I come from Minnesota, where we don't tax clothing and groceries.
Very progressive. Minnesota progressive.
We're blue in a sea of red. You know that.

Speaker 3 I think starting with the tax code, and by the way, I know the president can't wave a magic wand and get anything done, got to work with the Congress.

Speaker 3 And as the second most bipartisan member of Congress, I have some credibility in that area. And so to answer your question, a president cannot wave a magic wand.

Speaker 3 But when Americans are suffering the way they are, red and blue, I do believe there's a way for a president to work with conservatives in this case to do better, starting with the tax code.

Speaker 3 Why do we afford deductibility benefits to corporations that we do not afford to hardworking families?

Speaker 3 The necessities, Minnesota, groceries and clothing. Why do we not not allow people to deduct those expenses? The necessities.

Speaker 3 Obviously, we do mortgage deductibility, mortgage interest, but why not clothing and groceries and child care, right? Things like that.

Speaker 3 Donald Trump sent checks directly to Americans. And

Speaker 3 as to Joe Biden. And Biden.

Speaker 3 So I know you guys were part of that. Yeah.
And starting with Trump, of course, I voted for both. Do I think that's good policy generally? No.
But you know what happened?

Speaker 3 And of course, childhood poverty was decreased by about 50%.

Speaker 3 Americans had a lot more money in their pockets, many for the first more than they'd ever had in their bank accounts.

Speaker 6 Those weren't extended because Republicans didn't go along.

Speaker 3 Sure, sure, no, I know. That's my point.
My point is, we can't continue. That's not great policy.
What we do is raise the foundation. Let's start with housing.

Speaker 3 The fact is, we spend a trillion dollars a year, almost, on our military, which is another conversation.

Speaker 3 The fact is, we've got the resources to produce enough housing to ensure that everybody has a roof over their heads. As I'm in California, it's appalling.
I'm in Manchester, New Hampshire. It's sad.

Speaker 3 We have veterans sleeping in the street. You know,

Speaker 3 it's a will. And by the way, that's not a political notion.

Speaker 3 You know, we could probably create a $20 billion federal housing bank, change some zoning laws, reduce the red tape, and have a all-hands-on-deck national housing mission that wouldn't just provide housing for everybody, would also then reduce the prices for people who are barely able to afford housing because we don't have enough.

Speaker 3 That's an example of how you lower costs for people. I guess I'm just saying that I think that Joe Biden is definitely old.

Speaker 3 I don't know that his inability to solve the affordability crisis is necessarily related to his age because you've been in Congress. No, I know that, but you're just talking about new generation.

Speaker 3 And I just think that the truth is the last couple years, he got a lot done. You guys got a lot done.
Sure. And the only reason more wasn't done on affordability is because Republicans in Congress.

Speaker 3 I think more could have been done. And look, I was the vice chair of the Problem Solver Scottish Committee.
I support executive action. I believe more legislation.
There are people in Congress.

Speaker 3 I can count a dozen of them right now in the Problem Solvers Caucus that want to solve these problems.

Speaker 3 Politics gets in the way. I'm not saying I've got the magic wand myself.

Speaker 3 What I'm saying is there are people in the next generation that will attack these problems in a different manner that I've worked with already on many of the initiatives, by the way, that

Speaker 3 we helped Biden pass. Dusty Johnson, for example.

Speaker 3 I worked very closely with him on some of the COVID relief packages. I found that we could work together beautifully if people pushed us together.

Speaker 3 We could have a long conversation, by the way, about the powers that be in Washington that keep us separate by design so we don't challenge the power structures. I'm not here.

Speaker 3 This is an issue of winning, you guys. This is not an issue of policy.
It's not an issue of principles. It is an issue of winning right now, primarily.

Speaker 4 But that's that's where

Speaker 3 I've been sort of considering. How is he going to win? I've been consuming.
Well, we can get back to that.

Speaker 6 I've been consuming a lot of Dean Phillips content. And here's what I think is considered.

Speaker 3 Oh, we don't have too much yet.

Speaker 6 No, I feel like I've got a good sample.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 6 you talk about this need to pass the torch and you want there's all these problems that we could solve. We could just come together.

Speaker 6 Even you told Scott Galloway, you know, what is the motivating thing for you?

Speaker 6 It's loss and gratitude, which is exactly what I think it was remarkable because Joe Biden as a candidate, also motivated by loss and gratitude. You talk about the need for bipartisanship.

Speaker 6 I find it hard to argue you could have a more bipartisan figure than Joe Biden,

Speaker 6 someone who ran who said to restore the soul of the country, and who has, despite a recalcitrant and

Speaker 6 a radical Republican turn, gotten things like the chips bill done, gotten an infrastructure bill done, goes to Kentucky with Mitch McConnell, tries to model best practices for how to talk to people.

Speaker 6 One of the reasons you voted with him 100% of the time is because you were able to vote for a bunch of bipartisan proposals.

Speaker 6 So if you want to talk about winning and say, hey, we need somebody younger, we need somebody who won't have as bad a poll is fine.

Speaker 6 But I feel like you're searching for a policy case because the next question after why are you running is where do you differ from Joe Biden?

Speaker 3 Let me start then. Let me answer the question.
First of all, you're doing exactly what the Biden administration is doing right now. We're talking about the past.
Great accomplishments, you guys.

Speaker 3 Wonderful accomplishments. I voted for the infrastructure bill.
Frankly, I don't think it would have gotten passed without the Problem Solvers Caucus. I'm proud of that work.
This is not about that.

Speaker 3 That's the past. I'm talking about the future.
But when you talk about leadership, is there a Republican in the White House at that cabinet table?

Speaker 3 No, we need a bipartisan cabinet because if we don't, it doesn't matter if we have a Democrat or a Republican in the White House in the future, we're going to have a disaster of division in this country.

Speaker 3 I mean, we had a bipartisan cabinet in the Obama administration. Yeah.
I love Rayla Hood. Rayla Hood was great on Republican.

Speaker 6 It's great to have a Republican transportation.

Speaker 3 Let me

Speaker 3 see.

Speaker 3 But let me talk about what, you know, by the way, I think the President has led the country ably. He has not restored the soul of the nation.
And I believe that takes a new generation.

Speaker 3 This is a policy issue. It is a bipartisan cabinet.
It is ensuring that every American has their voice represented in their White House. If not, we're going to have a worse and worse division.

Speaker 3 I want to create a youth cabinet. I want to have a common sense czar instead of just black tie affairs that you guys know very well.

Speaker 3 What's the common sense czar doing? Common sense are going to look at every single government program, agency, and expenditure and make propositions to be more efficient.

Speaker 3 By the way, if you want to talk about responsibility, when's the last president that we had in the United States that had a balanced budget?

Speaker 3 We're spending $2 trillion a year more than we're taking in, you guys. We're going to spend $800 billion a year on debt service all for the past.

Speaker 3 We have almost no discretionary dollars for the future, and nobody's talking about it. You know what budget agreement goes?

Speaker 3 You're going to have to, we're going to demand raising revenues if we're going to do cuts.

Speaker 3 And Republicans have decided absolutely not on raising revenues. Okay.
For 10 years, 15 years?

Speaker 3 You're going to keep redirecting this to policy, and I'd love to talk about it. I'm going to keep redirecting it to winning.

Speaker 3 And if we don't win, first of all, I don't think if it's a Biden-Harris ticket right now, they will lose if the election's today. I think we lose the Senate, and we may well lose the House.

Speaker 3 I agree that Joe Biden running against Donald Trump is a risky proposition in 2022. It's usually risky.
I get it. Why wouldn't we have an alternative? The question is, why are you less risky?

Speaker 3 Why am I less risky?

Speaker 3 Is it just your age? That's what I'm saying. That's what I was going to say.

Speaker 3 That's just your age. I get it.
No. Look,

Speaker 3 I told you my life story.

Speaker 3 Look, you guys have been unkind to me on the show, and I respect you for it because this is the first time we've met, right? Yeah. And I told you my life story.
You can think of me what you want.

Speaker 3 You know, I've tried to live a life of helping people, sharing success, business is a means to an end.

Speaker 3 I believe that when money is like manure, if you stack it up, it stinks, and if you spread it out, it fertilizes. That's my ethos.
I got lucky.

Speaker 3 You know, I want to share the same good fortune with every kid in this country right now that doesn't have a damn chance.

Speaker 3 And I don't see the people in Washington who have been there for 50 years being able to do it. And I see Donald Trump about to win an election again when we know what we're walking into.

Speaker 3 And the difference is this. I've led businesses.

Speaker 3 I've been the board chair of a health system in Minnesota, one of the largest. I've been a regent at a university.
I've been the board director of a charitable foundation.

Speaker 3 I've served three terms in Congress. I was elected by my peers as a member of House leadership.

Speaker 3 And I'm the ranking member of the Middle East, North Africa, Central Asia Subcommittee on Foreign Affairs. I have broad experience.
Is it as deep in public service as President Biden? Of course not.

Speaker 3 He's been doing it 50 years. I was three years old when he became a senator.
But my life experience, my professional experience, my personal experience is broad.

Speaker 3 I believe in common sense and I believe in pragmatism. I believe in inclusion and I believe in ending this nonsense and I believe Washington is just not listening to people.

Speaker 3 And by the way, anybody who argues that it is a wise strategy to just allow President Biden to be the only one competing in the Democratic primary when he is losing in every poll to the most dangerous man in our history, it is just a different opinion opinion that I have.

Speaker 3 I think that is foolish. I think it's delusional.
And I think it's asinine considering what's at risk. I don't know why there's so much consternation about practicing democracy.

Speaker 3 It's as simple as that. You know, we don't have consternation about that.
No, that's not the right thing.

Speaker 3 Then what's the consternation? Well, here's the question. You're the guy to do it.
Well, yeah, that's the issue.

Speaker 3 That's why we're here.

Speaker 3 Why would they jump in?

Speaker 3 I don't know. I don't know either.

Speaker 6 And it is, and by the way, like, I do think that

Speaker 6 it is honorable to me that you're absolutely right. A ton of people in private talking about how worried they are.
They think Joe Biden seems like he's too old.

Speaker 6 And then in public, they haven't gotten behind you or behind anybody. There's a lot of governors who you've talked to, who you thought should have gotten in, that didn't get in.

Speaker 6 And you're out here doing it. You're making this argument.
You think it's important to have that conversation. And we've talked about this: that

Speaker 6 putting Joe Biden through the paces over the next few months doesn't necessarily weaken him. If anything, it can prove that he's up to the job.

Speaker 6 But forget talking about the sort of the broader context of why people didn't jump in or not. You're here.

Speaker 6 And And what would you say to a voter who says, okay, I'm concerned that Joe Biden seems as though he's too old, but I can't take a chance on someone who's only been elected in a suburban Minneapolis district that leans Democratic.

Speaker 6 I need to know that I'm going to put my,

Speaker 6 if the goal here is to win, if the question here is electability, why on earth would I take a chance on someone who's never run outside of this one specific place and is untested on the national stage?

Speaker 3 How many presidents in recent memory would ⁇ did Bill Clinton run anywhere besides Arkansas? Were his numbers even as high as mine right now, just one month into my...

Speaker 3 I mean, guys, come on, you know the truth about this.

Speaker 3 First of all, I can put together a coalition that I don't think any Democrat we've maybe discussed or might be on your minds that can.

Speaker 3 The Independent Coalition, the moderate Republican, Never Trumper Coalition. By the way, I flipped a red district that had been in Republican hands since 1958, beat a guy who had won by 14 by 12.

Speaker 3 I know how to do this. But it was a D plus 8 district.
I mean, it was a lean Democratic race. Guys,

Speaker 3 you can do all the butts in the world. I'm just saying.
It was held by Republicans for 60 years. Thank God you flipped it.
All I'm telling you is

Speaker 3 I've run in three races. I've won them all.
I've won in primaries. The president has lost the ability to build a coalition of the people needed to win a general election.
That's my contention.

Speaker 3 I may be wrong. The data says I'm right.
But furthermore, that's all I'm saying.

Speaker 3 Come May, June of next year, let's just see what the head-to-head polls say. If I'm ahead of Donald Trump and President Biden is behind, what would you guys say then?

Speaker 3 And we're the only two in the race. Would you say that I'm the better choice or he is still? No, no, just but ask but ask answer that.
Yeah, no. Well, you're talking about May or June.

Speaker 3 At that point, most of the delegates will have been awarded, so one of you will be the winner.

Speaker 3 At that point, I'd say.

Speaker 3 But just look at it. It's a reasonable question.

Speaker 3 If let's say I'm not in the lead with delegates,

Speaker 3 he is.

Speaker 3 Let's say he's still in the race. And let's say head-to-head polls come out that show me pretty handily beating Donald Trump and the Biden-Harris ticket losing.

Speaker 3 Would you say that it's still best to nominate Joe Biden and be the nominee?

Speaker 3 I mean, I wouldn't say that it's a good idea to upend the will of all the millions of Democratic primary voters who just voted already and said that they wanted Joe Biden instead of you.

Speaker 6 I think the way you have to beat Joe Biden is by beating Joe Biden.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 3 No, but that's not my, I'm just asking you guys a simple question. This is because I think

Speaker 3 I'd be very nervous at that point, but I'd be like, okay, those are the rules that we see in the primary. And therein lies, that is exactly why

Speaker 3 Democrats are struggling nationally right now. We're not nominating the people who can win.
You think at that point, though, but we're not nominating the people who can win.

Speaker 3 And if we want to keep coronating,

Speaker 3 we want to keep coronating.

Speaker 3 Well, that's what we're doing, guys. I'm telling you.
It's not coordinating to award the Democratic nomination to the person who won the most votes and the most delegates.

Speaker 3 John, the reason he will be winning those delegates is because there's an institution that does a pre-coronate. You guys know this.
I know you know this.

Speaker 3 I've discovered this in the last month how this works. I was part of the problem.
You guys know how this works. How does it work? You know how it works.

Speaker 3 There are people that want to pre-coronate, that hand the kind of the keys, if you will. It was true in 2008.
Thank goodness Barack Obama entered. And thank goodness.
We ran against these guys. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Thank you. But we put

Speaker 3 that in the middle of the house. But

Speaker 3 we spent a year figuring out the rules in every single state to make sure that we could win the delegates and not just tell people, I think Barack Obama is going to have a better chance of beating Republicans than Hillary Clinton, so go with him instead of the delegates.

Speaker 3 Trevor Burrus, what I'm hearing from you guys is that I should have just sat down and stood in line and just let this happen. No.
And that's fine. And I respect it.

Speaker 3 If that's how you feel, I totally respect that. You're here.
I think you've got to practice.

Speaker 6 Because we're talking to you. You're here because we want to hear from you.

Speaker 3 Why are you here?

Speaker 3 And if Joe Biden was here, we'd be like, hey, man, how are you going to win? Well, good luck getting him in front of the oppressor.

Speaker 3 Maybe you can tell you. You're here.
He's not. I know.
Guys,

Speaker 3 this is not a place I expected to be. It's not a place I had anticipated.
I put together a presidential campaign two weeks before I announced, and I've been at it for a month.

Speaker 3 I think we need more participation. We have a crisis of participation.
I think it's good to have options. There is a primary no matter if I'm in it or not.
There's Marianne Williamson.

Speaker 3 Doesn't get any attention, right?

Speaker 3 There is going to be a primary. And if something happened to Joe Biden in the next number of months, the only other candidate in the race who would accrue delegates is Marianne Williamson.

Speaker 3 That's just the truth. Why should we not, especially for a man his age, actuarily alone, why would we not have another another candidate who's able and competent and prepared? That's all.

Speaker 3 I think it's good, but I think that's great to have another candidate.

Speaker 3 What we're trying to ask you is, you have this, and you know this, you have this monumental challenge. Sure.
Which is to try to beat a sitting president.

Speaker 3 And we can talk about the rules.

Speaker 3 I'm in this to beat the last president, who is an unmitigated disaster for America that our current president will not beat. Every single poll is saying the same thing.
It could change.

Speaker 3 And if it does, I will be the first.

Speaker 3 If he is better positioned, come next summer, no matter what the delegates say right now. If he's better positioned, I will get behind him 100%.
I campaigned for him last time.

Speaker 3 He has been in my house for a fundraiser that I held for the man in 2011. Yeah, I know.
I mean, guys, this is not adversarial. This is existential.

Speaker 3 And that is why I'm running.

Speaker 6 Yeah, and by the way,

Speaker 6 you keep coming back to saying there should be a race.

Speaker 6 Why would there not be a race? You're here. You're in it.
We're just talking to you about why you should win. But we're not saying you you should drop out today.
We're not saying no one, no one.

Speaker 3 I'm just curious about the strategy. Yeah, we are.

Speaker 3 I'm telling you again, telling you again.

Speaker 3 My strategy is to compete in every state I can. I'll be on 45, I think, to 47 state ballots.
Not an easy task because you guys know as well as anybody. It's hard.

Speaker 3 There's a system designed to prevent people from getting onto the ballot, and it works really well. It's terribly expensive.
I've got to spend millions of dollars and a lot of staff hours doing it.

Speaker 3 I'm going to compete. But the most important part is those head-to-head polls.
This is about beating Donald Trump and bringing the country to the future. If it's Joe Biden come next summer, so be it.

Speaker 3 I will get behind him. But conversely, if those polls and over the next number of months I introduce myself, there is affection, there is growing support, and the polls show me beating Donald Trump.

Speaker 3 Isn't that a good thing for Democrats and for the country? That's my contention, and that's my strategy.

Speaker 3 And I'm going to have a lot of policy propositions, guys, that are going to be, I think, very helpful to all Americans. You're going to see a lot rolling out soon.

Speaker 3 Everything from Social Security to affordability, cannabis and psilocybin. There's so much that we have to do.

Speaker 3 Just want to touch on maybe the biggest issue everyone's dealing with today, and it's bled into our politics as well, is the war in Gaza. Sure.

Speaker 3 You said a few weeks ago you're not there yet on conditioning aid to Israel. Are you now or why not? Or where are you? Yeah.

Speaker 3 Well, I'm Jewish, and I want to be...

Speaker 3 the first Jewish president in the United States of America.

Speaker 3 And I want to be the one that signs documents that helps establish a Palestinian state because more than a Jewish American, I'm a human.

Speaker 3 And I'm sick and disgusted by the cycle of bloodshed perpetuated by the same generations that have been doing it the same way forever.

Speaker 3 And what I saw on October 7th was the most horrifying, despicable acts of violence against human beings I've seen in my lifetime, the worst pogrom against Jewish people since the Holocaust.

Speaker 3 And I have to say that as the ranking member of the Middle East Subcommittee, I've sat with B.B. Netanyahu twice this year.
I've looked him in the eye, and here's what I told him.

Speaker 3 I said, when I was a boy growing up in America,

Speaker 3 Israel was the David among Goliaths. And as a result,

Speaker 3 you saw this great affection from the progressives in America for Israel because it was the underdog. We progressives love the underdog.
That's our job. That's our ethos.
And I said, Mr.

Speaker 3 Netanyahu, because of your policies over the last 30 years, in no small part, Israel is now perceived as the Goliath next to a David. And he interrupted me.
He said, that's just not choice.

Speaker 3 I'm not saying the facts. I'm saying the perception is, is that Israel is now the Goliath next to a David.
And you're going to lose progressives. You're going to lose this relationship.

Speaker 3 You're going to lose support from the world. And as a result, it's going to affect all of us, the diaspora around the world.
Little did I know that just some months later, October 7th would happen.

Speaker 3 And the Prime Minister of Israel is now putting my children at risk and us at risk. And it's the first time I remember that feeling of being unsafe in my own country.

Speaker 3 And the fact that personal security and ballot access are the two biggest line items in my budget right now, in my campaign, is a really sad commentary on democracy. And he has got to go.

Speaker 3 Israel has got to choose a different government and a different path. The settlement policy is abhorrent.
Hamas is far more abhorrent than Netanyahu. They are the enemy of Israel.

Speaker 3 They're the enemy of Palestinians. Abu Mazen, same thing.

Speaker 3 I want to see new leadership from the West Bank to the West Wing because he's got to go too. The pay-to-slave policy is despicable.
He is corrupt.

Speaker 3 I want to see Palestinians actually choose a government of peace. I want to see Israelis choose a government of peace.
And I want to see our generation be the ones that finally affect it.

Speaker 3 Because until we do there, I won't feel safe. My kids won't feel safe.
And the Jewish community around the world won't feel safe.

Speaker 3 And by the way, my Muslim brothers and sisters are feeling the same pain right now.

Speaker 3 These three kids of Palestinian descent that were shot in Vermont. You know, this is a time for not more division.
It's a time to actually take each other's hands. You know,

Speaker 3 my relationship with Rashida Tlaib is one that I'm taking a lot of heat for.

Speaker 3 But I know in her heart she wants the same things.

Speaker 3 I wish she said different things about Israel, probably the way she wishes I said different things about Palestine.

Speaker 3 But we have an affection and appreciation for one another because if we can't figure this out as human beings, there's no way we're going to do it in the Middle East.

Speaker 3 So anyway, back to the point about conditioning aid.

Speaker 3 I want to see Hamas eliminated. I want to see a peacekeeping force in Gaza that is not including the U.S.
and Israel. And I want to see a unified multi-nation, national task force to take out Hamas.

Speaker 3 We can't entrust Israel to do this anymore. It's not fair.
It's not reasonable. And it won't be effective.

Speaker 3 I think the Gulf states have to step up. I think we should also be conditioning aid to Egypt, which we are to some degree, but not enough.

Speaker 3 And at some point, if Netanyahu continues and the policies continue that actually affect peace in the Middle East, and more importantly, if they start affecting Americans, which it is, then yes, at some point we have to condition aid.

Speaker 3 I'm not there yet, but yes, the answer is I want to represent the United States of America. My job is to get hostages out of Gaza.
We have nine Americans still sitting there.

Speaker 3 And my job is to keep Americans safe. We are becoming unsafe because, I believe, of the circumstances half a world away.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.: So why not?

Speaker 3 We condition aid to just about every country that we send aid to except Israel. We have a supplemental request coming up that you're going to vote on.

Speaker 3 Why not say this this aid is conditioned on Israel not committing human rights violations, which is just a law that we abide by anyway. Anyway, exactly.
It's already there.

Speaker 3 No more settler violence, right? We don't want American weapons in the hands of settlers. There's been some reports that set up.
And a two-state solution,

Speaker 3 as you want, because Bibi just yesterday is telling right-wing members of his government, I'm the only one who's going to prevent a two-state solution.

Speaker 3 So why not condition this next tranche of aid on those?

Speaker 3 Because Israel has an acute need for support right now, as the only Jewish-majority nation in the world. There are 200-majority Christian nations.
There are 150 or so majority Muslim nations.

Speaker 3 There is one Jewish-majority nation in the world.

Speaker 3 And look, when those boats fleeing the Holocaust came to America

Speaker 3 80 years ago, if we had accepted them in the beginning, I might say, you know what? There's another place that Jews can always take refuge in, the United States of America.

Speaker 3 But the fact of the matter is, as of right now, I think there's only only one, and that's Israel. And I'm growing concerned about our nation and its hospitality towards the other.

Speaker 3 That's true of Muslims and Jews and people of all colors and races and backgrounds and countries of origin. And I think our aid to Israel should continue.

Speaker 3 And I think Israelis have to make a choice soon

Speaker 3 for a whole new direction, the same way I think the United States has to.

Speaker 3 We're going to be in some desperate times if we continue down these same paths, guys. And I think this is a metaphor for not just change in the U.S., but also change around the world.

Speaker 6 But even though you recognize, and as someone who supports Israel, believes in Israel's not only right to exist, but it's important to exist, you believe that for Israel's own security and safety, it needs to make certain changes.

Speaker 3 Yes, it has to.

Speaker 6 And yet the U.S. should not use its power and its aid as a means to extract those changes by making it conditional.
You would like to give them the money and then put the pressure on separately.

Speaker 3 I don't really understand that. Well,

Speaker 3 I believe that... They have an acute need.
It's not dissimilar from Ukraine right now. And in an acute need, I don't think that's the time to start conditioning.

Speaker 3 Yes, do I care deeply about the loss of innocent lives on both sides of this horrible conflict? Yes. Can I stand seeing Gazan babies killed? No, it's horrifying.
And I'm sick of it.

Speaker 3 And I'm disgusted by Hamas. And frankly, I'm deeply troubled by Benjamin Netanyahu.
And I think he now has an incentive to continue this war, not to end it for reasons you guys surely know.

Speaker 3 And I do believe the United States should start using its levers of power economically, diplomatically, kinetically, in ways that we have not done so effectively for many, many, many years.

Speaker 3 So, the question is: I just don't, the focus is on Israel. We are supplying aid to countries all around the world who commit the most atrocious crimes against humanity, who are corrupt.

Speaker 3 And I do believe we need to comprehensively assess how we use our foreign aid dollars, not to mention military support.

Speaker 3 Yes, but I don't think at this very moment we should condition the aid until we give Israelis a chance to choose a new path and, frankly, equally importantly, Palestinians. And

Speaker 3 that means investment in civil society. That That means a all-hands-on-deck effort to provide security and safety for both Gazans and those who live in the West Bank.

Speaker 3 They've not had a chance to vote since 2006. There's a whole generation that has been raised without even the chance to choose their leadership.
And Israel chose a man who said he'd keep them safe.

Speaker 3 And the intelligence and military failures on October 7th are reprehensible. I'm just saying, guys,

Speaker 3 I'm a Jewish American. I care deeply about my Muslim brothers and sisters.
I care deeply about Israel. I'm horrified by Israel's policies.

Speaker 3 I'm horrified by Jewish terrorism against Palestinians in the West Bank. I'm horrified by a settlement policy that absolutely has inspired this perpetual hatred.

Speaker 3 But I'm also optimistic about the possibility of working with my colleagues like Rashida Tlaib and with the Palestinian American community and with my friends and even foes around the world to bring a better future for everybody.

Speaker 3 And we've got to start by change. The same people doing it the same way, you guys, is not going to happen.
That's how I feel.

Speaker 3 So, when I was in college, I had a Brita filter.

Speaker 6 And what I would do is I would buy the cheapest vodka available, and I would put it through the Brita filter, and nicer vodka would come out.

Speaker 6 Are you aware of this? Are you aware that this works?

Speaker 3 No, it's, and what a brilliant Brita. I'm amazed Brita didn't make that like one of their key marketing campaigns.

Speaker 3 Take your pop-up vodka and make it into Belvedere.

Speaker 6 Is what you're doing on some level, like Biden has these liabilities. People perceive him to be a certain way.

Speaker 6 And what we need to do is find a way to change the brand. And you're trying to find a way to put a better brand on a lot of the kind of policies that Joe Biden would pursue.

Speaker 3 That's a really good point. The answer is yes.

Speaker 3 My background is in marketing. There's no question.
And that's how I won an election in 2018 against all odds. That's how I intend to win this election.

Speaker 3 And most of all, yes, I'm so glad you brought it up. Democrats have to repackage.
We have to rebuild a brand. What do we stand for? We have to repackage it.

Speaker 3 We've got to choose words that make sense to Americans, that aren't so hoity-toity or divisive, or frankly, phrases that simply don't work.

Speaker 3 There is an opportunity, I believe, with packaging and articulation of key principles that, yes, can be invitational, not confrontational.

Speaker 3 Why is

Speaker 3 a good man who has accomplished so much losing to the most dangerous man in American history right now? Think about it. Why?

Speaker 3 Why?

Speaker 3 How is it possible that Democrats right now are not easily winning national elections? How is it possible that we have to go to the past? I mean,

Speaker 3 we won the popular vote in the last, however, many

Speaker 3 of us,

Speaker 3 but we won by 40, Joe Biden won by about 40,000-some votes. And you guys know this.
No, of course.

Speaker 3 My point is this, guys.

Speaker 3 I mean, I believe in America more deeply than some do right now, and I believe that Trumpers are just waiting to be invited by a party that right now is offensive to them. Offensive to them, guys.

Speaker 3 Well, and by the way, I have a great deal of animus towards Donald Trump. And I was in the House chamber on January 6th when he subjected us, all of us, to the insurrection.
I have animus towards him.

Speaker 3 I do not have animus towards most of those who support him. They're angry like a lot of Democrats are angry right now because they can't afford their lives.

Speaker 3 They feel unheard, mistreated, unappreciated. There's a geographic divide where Democrats are not even talking about rural Americans right now.

Speaker 3 We're not even trying to show up in places where people are actually wanting us to.

Speaker 3 And by the way, one of the great joys of my campaign is showing up in places where people aren't that thrilled when I walk in. And by the time I leave, they're surprised.
Why don't we do that?

Speaker 3 Why don't we repackage, repromote, re-articulate, reimagine, be that great Democratic Party that is inclusive literally, not just in our verbalization?

Speaker 3 And I got to tell you, I think the root of this is money. I think that in Washington, when my members of Congress are spending $10,000 per week collectively raising money, who do we raise it from?

Speaker 3 The wealthy and well-connected. Who's not being addressed and listened to and approached? Everybody else.

Speaker 3 And as the only member of Congress who takes no PAC money and no lobbyist money, no member money and doesn't have a leadership PAC,

Speaker 3 I find it hard to find colleagues to have dinner with in Washington because they're so busy going to PAC events, getting the white envelopes with the checks.

Speaker 3 And you've got tens of millions of Americans, Democrats and Republicans, saying, what the hell is going on here?

Speaker 3 What the heck is going on? So this is the first time that we're talking about campaign finance reform, thanks to the business. It is.
It is. It is.
But I'm just saying that I'm understanding. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And look, guys,

Speaker 3 I was part of the problem for years. I was the supporter.
I was the enabler. I was the believer in a system that is working working against Americans.

Speaker 3 Ostensibly, the Democratic Party that should be promoting debate, promoting participation,

Speaker 3 not suppressing is doing just the opposite, guys. I'm just telling you the truth, and I'm frustrated by it.
I still have faith we can change it.

Speaker 3 But look at when you're disenfranchising New Hampshire voters saying their delegates won't be seated, that's suppressing voters.

Speaker 3 When you make it almost impossible to get on the ballots in states, that's suppressing candidates.

Speaker 3 And when you say proactively there will be no debates in the Democratic primary, no matter who enters, that's suppressing conversation. That is dangerous.
And to your point, yes, it's time for change.

Speaker 3 It's time to repackage. It's time to invite and use invitation instead of condemnation.
It's not working.

Speaker 6 Do you think Joe Biden has an age perception problem? It seems to me, my sort of view of this from 30,000 feet is Joe Biden does seem very old.

Speaker 6 But by all accounts, he is an interlocutor in meetings who is strong. He is fully up to the job mentally and emotionally.

Speaker 6 On the other hand, Trump seems more energetic, but he's mentally and emotionally unfit. Do you agree with that assessment?

Speaker 3 I think that's a totally fair assessment. The sad truth is these images seem fully baked.
By the way, how can you talk about President Biden's age and not talk about President Trump's age?

Speaker 3 It's ridiculous. Yet the media doesn't do it that way, of course.
And yes,

Speaker 3 I've not seen evidence of the President's cognitive decline. The country is telling all of us that they do.

Speaker 3 And by the way, that is my whole point here, is I've been trying to help this administration.

Speaker 3 You know, my job on the House Democratic leadership team was to promote the president's agenda and help package it. And Bidenomics is an unmitigated disaster.
You guys know this. We tried, it failed.

Speaker 3 But to your point, yes, my contention is that Americans' perception is going to make it impossible for him to win. And we can spend the next number of months talking about why or what he could do.

Speaker 3 But the fact of the matter is the numbers keep moving in the wrong direction. So that is exactly how I feel.
And Donald Trump is cognitively ill-prepared. His character is appalling.

Speaker 3 He has no empathy. He's a narcissist.
He's unable, incompetent, a weak human being, and cannot come anywhere near the White House. And we should mobilize to ensure we beat him.
Period.

Speaker 6 You know,

Speaker 6 you asked it rhetorically, you know, why is it that we're so close? Why is it that someone's so manifestly unfit?

Speaker 6 And I think what the core of what this conversation is about is some of that can very fairly be laid at the feet of Democrats and Joe Biden.

Speaker 6 But a great deal of it are economic conditions, cultural conditions, a media environment that you can't lay at the feet of Democrats and that would come for any Democrat anywhere.

Speaker 6 And the idea that what we need, that

Speaker 6 you can't have a Democrat run for president without facing the Republican machine, propaganda apparatus, noise, and onslaught. And I think sometimes people look for that.
Andrew Yang looks for that.

Speaker 6 They want center-left

Speaker 6 or centrist policies without all the political baggage. But the problem is the political baggage comes once you're within striking distance of actual power.

Speaker 6 And it seems to me that at the core of of this, you are asking for us to switch from what is one big risk, which is Joe Biden, to another risk, which is you.

Speaker 6 And I think what this is not about whether or not you have the right to pursue that, but I think the question is, can you make that case?

Speaker 3 And right now. You're saying in the headhead matchup against Donald Trump that I'm a bigger risk than Joe Biden and Tom Larry.

Speaker 3 Oh, wow. And then that is just the fun.
And by the way. I mean, we don't know.
We don't know. We're all sitting here.
We're trying to figure it out. And that's exactly.
And that's exactly.

Speaker 3 And that's exactly. I'm glad we're having

Speaker 3 the root of this whole conversation. And that's exactly why I offered myself to be the alternative because my belief is it's just the opposite.

Speaker 3 I believe in 2020, Joe Biden was the only one that probably could have beat Donald Trump, and he did by 40,000 votes in a few states.

Speaker 3 You know, Ronald Reagan, remember his old line was, you know, are you better off now than you were four years ago? Do you think Joe Biden is better positioned now?

Speaker 3 Do you think Joe Biden is better positioned now than he was four years ago when he won by 40,000 votes in a few states? Intuitively, I say no. The national polls are not.
No, no, no.

Speaker 3 I don't think Donald Trump Trump is better positioned either. Well, neither of them are better positioned.
But then why are the numbers saying that he is?

Speaker 3 Why are the same polls that basically predicted the outcome of the recent elections, why are those so suddenly right, but the ones showing that Trump is going to beat Biden?

Speaker 3 But back to the point, you guys, it's just a difference of opinion if you think that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are better positioned to beat Donald Trump than I will be by next summer.

Speaker 3 And time will tell. And by the way, that's all I'm asking for.
Okay. Is come meet me,

Speaker 3 challenge me, ask me questions, give me a chance to practice democracy. Let me make my case.
Let's see what the polls say in summer next year.

Speaker 3 And then Democrats will ultimately be able to make a choice at the convention about who they believe is best positioned to prevent not just tragedy, but I think an existential threat to the entire democracy.

Speaker 3 And by the way, I may be wrong. And if I am, I'll admit it.
And if the president is wrong, I hope he does too. And that's all I'm asking for.

Speaker 3 Dean Phillips,

Speaker 3 thanks for showing up. Thanks for showing up and answering our questions.
And the reason we were digging into the policy stuff is because for what you just said, we wanted to hear you make your case.

Speaker 3 Well, there's a lot more. If you have me back, I'll talk policy because I'm working on a lot of propositions that I think will be very compelling, not just to Democrats, but to Republicans.

Speaker 3 And back to your one more thing. Packaging.

Speaker 3 Until Democrats start unifying behind the need to create a brand, what it stands for, articulate it, and start inviting people, we will not succeed in the way that I know we can, and we will.

Speaker 3 You can have ice cream.

Speaker 3 Do you have ideas on that? I have a few ideas on how to package.

Speaker 6 Call ice cream gelato, is that the plan?

Speaker 3 No, it's just the opposite.

Speaker 3 I'm a beer candidate, not a wine candidate. Oh, but if you put it, I thought gelato.
No, gelato is a fancy word for ice cream.

Speaker 6 That's all I wanted to hear.

Speaker 3 That's all I wanted to hear. Can I tell you a quick story about that, quick? Sure.
Sure. All right.
So,

Speaker 3 this is going to be, you're going to like this story. So, Talanti was started by my partner, Josh Hochschuler.
He opened a gelato shop in Dallas 20 years ago. It was failing miserably.

Speaker 3 He gets an order for gelato from his grocery store down the street. He could not afford to make a pint, like a rent, Ben and Jerry's and Hagenau's pint.
Could not afford the package.

Speaker 3 So he went to a surplus store and found a thousand clear plastic jars with a screw-off lid that he could just put a little label on.

Speaker 3 So the fact that he had no resources literally created one of the most beautiful ice cream brands in the world. He had no money and had to buy the close-out clear jar.

Speaker 3 And the brand starts doing well.

Speaker 3 We become his partner in about 2012. And we introduced a product called Dulce de Leche, thinking that gelato had to be fancy.
And this gets back to Democratic brand building.

Speaker 3 We thought a fancy name would be the best. And the brand sold.
It was like our 10th best-selling item. It didn't do very well.
And then we changed it to C-Salt Caramel.

Speaker 3 And it became our number one selling flavor almost.

Speaker 3 Almost there. That's my favorite.
That one's my favorite. It's Alenti, actually.
So here's the moral of the story. Democrats have to start talking in C-Salt Caramel terms.

Speaker 3 And until we do, I think it's going to be really hard to win elections the way that I think we should be and we will be. And that's the moral of the story.

Speaker 3 All right. C-Salt Caramel.
Dean Phillips, thanks for stopping by Pod Save America. Hey, guys, thanks for the invitation.

Speaker 3 Keep the faith and keep in touch. All right.
Take care. All right.

Speaker 3 Thanks to Dean Phillips for joining, and everyone have a great weekend. We'll talk to you next week.

Speaker 4 Bye, everyone.

Speaker 3 Pot Save America is a crooked media production. Our producers are Olivia Martinez and David Toledo.
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Speaker 6 Hey, everybody, it's John Lovett of Pod Save America. It or Leave It, and for a brief moment in time, Survivor on CBS.

Speaker 6 Understanding reality TV is the key to understanding the current state of our politics. Trump gets it.
To your favorite Democrats, I doubt it.

Speaker 6 That's why I'm introducing a limited series on this feed called Love It or Leave It Presents Bravo America.

Speaker 6 Every week, I'm going to sit down with my favorite personalities in reality TV: people like Dorinda Medley from The Real Housewives of New York, Orange County House Husband, and botched surgeon, Dr.

Speaker 6 Terry Dubrow, Survivors, Black Widow, Poverty Shallow. Welcome to Plathville's Olivia Plath more.
Over eight episodes of Conversations will answer three big questions.

Speaker 6 What did my guests learn about reality TV? What did my guests learn about themselves?

Speaker 6 And what did they learn about politics and this great and perfect nation of ours?

Speaker 6 Through it all, I'm pushing to get people to talk more openly about all of this, including stories they haven't told and moments that didn't make it on screen.

Speaker 6 Love It or Leave It presents Bravo America on this feed every Tuesday for the next eight weeks. So check it out and be cool about it.