Trump Arraignment Syndrome

Speaker 1 Get to the heart of the action at the world's biggest soccer tournament. Fly into San Jose, just eight minutes from the stadium and nine minutes from downtown hotels and parties.

Speaker 1 Fly, stay, play in San Jose. Go to sanjose.org slash play sj26.

Speaker 3 Welcome back to Pod Dave America. I'm Tommy Vitor.
I'm Dan Pfeiffer. Jon Favreau is feeling a little under the weather today, Dan.

Speaker 3 So we are about to record what many people are calling the single best Thursday pod in history.

Speaker 4 You know that, right?

Speaker 3 Roger Ebert called this episode ingeniously conceived and seamlessly executed.

Speaker 3 No, that was actually a Wes Anderson movie review, but we'll try to do our best here without our fearless leader, friend, John.

Speaker 3 So on today's show, we got Donald Trump turning his federal indictment into a campaign event slash fundraiser slash birthday party, as someone does. He turned 77 on Wednesday, Dan.

Speaker 3 I think that raises serious questions about whether Trump is too old to do the job, don't you agree?

Speaker 3 What else we got? We got Chris Christie cannonballing into the CNN Town Hall waters. Strict scrutinies, Leah Littman, and Dan talk about what comes next in the legal process.

Speaker 3 So there's an actual smart person in the B block in the show.

Speaker 4 We trick around for them.

Speaker 4 We have to get one in every three to four weeks. So usually that person is a host of Strict Scrutiny.

Speaker 3 Yeah, listen. Thank God for them.
And then Dan and I are going to talk about California Governor Gavin Newsom's interview with Sean Hannity on Fox News. Was that last night, last week?

Speaker 3 When does anything happen?

Speaker 4 It was very recent. I think it was.
I watched it on YouTube. Monday, maybe? Sunday? I don't know.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Anyway, it was good.
I think they broke it into multiple parts, too. Sean is just milking that thing for all he can.

Speaker 3 But Dan, because we all love California politics, if you cannot get enough of them, San Francisco Mayor London Breed is going to be a special guest at a Love It or Leave It live show at the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco on June 22nd.

Speaker 3 Go to crooked.com/slash events for more info on how to get tickets.

Speaker 3 And there is still time to support our fuckbands, Leave Queer Kids Alone, funds that go to help support organizations on the ground in states that are passing bigoted laws attacking trans adults and trans youth.

Speaker 3 You can choose to donate to a nonprofit fund. You can donate to the political action organizations.
Both are great. Both are greatly appreciated.

Speaker 3 So go to votesaveamerica.com/slash fuckbands to learn more. We already had a double our goal, Dan, because we were just raising so much cash.
So thank you to everyone who did. All right, news time.

Speaker 3 So Trump was arrested in Miami. He pleaded not guilty to 37 felony counts of violating the Espionage Act and obstruction of justice.
He was fingerprinted. There were no photographs, bail.

Speaker 3 There's no gag order or travel restrictions that we know of, though the judge did say Trump is not allowed to commit any more crimes before the trial.

Speaker 3 That seems unfair to me, Dan. It's kind of like in his nature.

Speaker 3 The crowd of Trump fans and protesters outside the courthouse was smaller than expected, but Trump did make an unannounced campaign stop at a famous Cuban restaurant before flying to Bedmister, where he held a campaign-style rally.

Speaker 5 Here's a clip: Joe Biden broke the law and so far has not gotten indicted.

Speaker 6 I did everything right, and they indicted me.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 3 I did. I love that Trump doesn't just give like a campaign-style speech about the indictment and do the fundraiser,

Speaker 3 complete with teleprompter and crowd and all the trappings. They also scheduled what people in politics call an OTR at a famous Cuban restaurant.
That means you don't advise the president in advance.

Speaker 3 You just sort of show up. So Secret Service doesn't have to lock down the place.
Were you surprised that the Trump team turned this into just another day on the campaign trail?

Speaker 4 I'm not surprised, but I am impressed.

Speaker 4 Look, going on a campaign stop immediately after you were charged with 37 felony accounts is definitely a thumb in the eye of the legal system.

Speaker 4 When those 37 felony counts are for mishandling classified information, it's probably a thumb in the eye of the military and our intelligence professionals and all of that.

Speaker 4 But it probably is smart politics. Trump is, he wants to seem unbothered, uncowed, triumphant in the face of

Speaker 4 his incredibly precarious legal situation. He did it.
He did it after the indictment details came out over the weekend. He went to a waffle house in Georgia and bought waffles for everyone.

Speaker 4 Now he's at a Cuban restaurant.

Speaker 4 And I do think that in the, yes, Trump is a self-destructive buffoon, which is why he's in this mess, but this version of his campaign, unlike 2016 and unlike 2020, actually has some strategies surrounding.

Speaker 4 the cell phones from Trump that are is pretty impressive.

Speaker 4 Like there's an actual plan here and he is working aggressively to maximize his political position in despite possibly being sent to jail for decades.

Speaker 4 And it's so I think it's impressive. And I think I tell any Democrat that I talk to about this is that his campaign this time around has a plan and this is part of that plan.

Speaker 3 Yeah,

Speaker 3 I should say we can't confirm reports that he wrapped up half of his sandwich to go in some nuclear secrets, but there's some talk of that online.

Speaker 3 Yeah, like legally speaking, I mean, maybe this goes without saying, but attacking the guy, prosecuting you, attacking his wife, constantly commenting on a case that hasn't been tried yet is probably a bad idea.

Speaker 3 But you're right. I mean, Trump probably rightly views everything in life as a political problem first and foremost.
And I don't know, maybe he wants to raise money.

Speaker 3 He wants to keep his supporters on sides. He wants to keep the Republicans on sides.

Speaker 3 And he probably thinks all I need to do is convince one juror that I'm innocent, future juror, I should say, and that this is unfair. So why not go big and influence public opinion?

Speaker 3 And to your point about the plan,

Speaker 3 the restaurant he went to, Versailles, is a famous spot for politicians to visit.

Speaker 3 You know, he's clearly appealing to a more conservative Cuban community in Miami. Stonecrab season is over.
It's worth mentioning that, so we didn't go to Joe's. But question for you, Dan.

Speaker 3 He may have a little competition in the Miami Cuban community. The mayor of Miami, Francis Suarez, jumped into the race today.
He once suggested that the U.S. should consider airstrikes on Cuba.

Speaker 3 He might be most famous for creating a cryptocurrency called Miami Coin, which is only down 96%

Speaker 3 from its peak peak so far. So some room to grow there.
He might also be under indictment. He also said publicly he didn't vote for Trump or for DeSantis.
So

Speaker 3 competitor, what do you think?

Speaker 4 So when you say it's down 96%,

Speaker 4 that means it's outperforming most cryptocurrencies. Is that correct? Well, yeah.

Speaker 3 Listen, all I see is a potential. That's what I see here.

Speaker 4 Look,

Speaker 4 I think it fits perfect with his campaign slogan of buy the dip. Buy the dip.
Buy the dip.

Speaker 3 Francis Fares, Buy the Dip. So, okay, let's talk about Trump's speech.
I watched it this morning on YouTube. Thank you again.

Speaker 4 At what speed did you watch it?

Speaker 3 I was going to thank the YouTube engineers for allowing 2X because I needed it.

Speaker 4 It was a weird mix of sort of political rally.

Speaker 3 He clearly liked speaking at Bedminster because it's got those white columns that look sort of like White House adjacent, you know?

Speaker 4 Like the 2008 Obama convention speech?

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah, those are, oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 For those who don't, aren't Obama pilled like we are. There was, we had columns.
They looked Greek. everyone attacked us for a while at our outdoor event in Denver.

Speaker 3 Anyway, it was a rally, but he was also trying to fire up the crowd by explaining kind of how the Presidential Records Act governs document retention, which just seems to confuse people for big stretches.

Speaker 3 He gave my old boss, John Edwards, a shout-out.

Speaker 3 There was a lot of whataboutism when it comes to Biden's classified documents and Hillary's server. CNN and MSNBC did not take this speech live.
What did you make of this thing?

Speaker 4 It was so long. And so 30 minutes worse.

Speaker 4 And I actually felt bad for the people at Bedminster who were, I think, trapped in the room and could not get out and had to listen to it.

Speaker 4 It was very reminiscent of his campaign announcement speech that he did down at Mar-a-Lago. I think these speeches are basically

Speaker 4 sort of catharsis and therapy for Trump, where he just like spits out everything he's going to say. And then there's one or two

Speaker 4 like 30-second sound bites that he has been told by his campaign staff that he has to say. And you can see him just like switch and start reading, right?

Speaker 4 He goes, and I mean, he's the least subtle teleprompter reader in history where he's like, this way, and now this way, and then back this way.

Speaker 4 But in it, and you know, I think you've, there's no, he doesn't pay a price for any of these speeches. No one sees them.

Speaker 4 CNN didn't, not that anyone would have seen him if CNN has seen necessarily air them or certainly no one who's going to make up their mind based on the speeches.

Speaker 3 So he just goes out, says his crazy things, and then hopefully in the eyes of his campaign staff, the one or two lines that matter to them are the ones that get picked up by tv yeah i felt bad for the crowd too it's like i mean to be fair it's a collection of some of the worst people in america is my guess yeah get out too will be filmed at bedminster trump rally um one piece of uh a good news such as it is there wasn't some you know massive crowd there wasn't a violent protest Does it make you feel better?

Speaker 3 Do we think like the series of headlines about January 6th insurrectionists going to jail kind of helps keep the Proud Boys away?

Speaker 4 No, I think it's the fact that there's always another indictment to attend if you're busy for this one. So it's like

Speaker 4 options. It's like a band going to a city too much.
I can't make it to Miami, but I can probably make it to Fulton County in August for that one, or I can make it to D.C. for the January 6th one.

Speaker 3 An indictment a day keeps the Proud Boys away.

Speaker 3 The Miami police chief said he was preparing for 5,000 to 50,000 people. About 500 to 2,000 showed up.
I wonder if the Delta was K-pop fans on TikTok buying other tickets.

Speaker 4 That that was just

Speaker 4 one-time thing. Another esoteric reference, just a little more recent than the one we made.
I just made. I mean, 2,000 people is not nothing to show up.
No, it's not.

Speaker 3 It's not. Although there were some counter-protesters, one of whom got arrested for running in front of his car, I think dressed up as like an old school burglar in like the stripes.

Speaker 3 Anyway, so as so often happens with Trump scandals, the first few days after he drops a new banger, the defenders kind of flail away with a number of, let's just say, creative responses and defenses.

Speaker 9 here's sort of a a poo-poo platter of the bullshit that we all saw on tv over the last couple days i don't know is it a good picture to have boxes in a garage that opens up all the time a bathroom door locks as somebody who's been to mar-a-lago you just can't walk through mar-a-lago of your own accord because secret service is all over the place there are 33 bathrooms at mar-a-lago uh he really liked mementos uh his office in new york's filled with them uh and the letter from kim jong moon would uh would fit into that.

Speaker 11 If he had cocaine in those boxes that were stacked up in the ballroom, then maybe if he's running a cocaine ring out of Mar-a-Lago, maybe they don't circle the...

Speaker 3 Joe could send Hunter to check that out.

Speaker 4 Exactly.

Speaker 11 But he's not. We're talking about a piece of paper.

Speaker 12 What's happened to the public's trust in institutions is, I think, far more significant than a bunch of documents being kept sloppily in a bathroom.

Speaker 13 We had a lady or a man that now claims to be a lady, you know, going topless at the White House two days ago at a pride celebration thing.

Speaker 13 I mean, we can do whatever we want, we can be as decadent as we want in our society and our culture. We can break our politics.

Speaker 13 We can take our institution and weaponize them for political purposes on both sides. You think this ends here?

Speaker 13 The next Republican president is going to be under tremendous pressure to bring charges and indict Joe Biden, his family, his crackhead son, whoever.

Speaker 3 What a dickhead. That was Speaker Kevin McCarthy, Congressman Byron Donalds, Byron York, a pundit, Fox News's Jesse Waters, then Laura Ingraham from Fox, and then finally Senator Marco Rubio.

Speaker 3 Dan, why won't the MSM cover any of the bathrooms that did not have classified information next to the shitter?

Speaker 4 I think that the Byron Donalds explanation was really pitch perfect because how many bathrooms have you been in that lock from the outside?

Speaker 3 No, that was Kevin McCarthy.

Speaker 4 That was Kevin McCarthy?

Speaker 3 Kevin McCarthy thinks that the boxes got put in the bathroom and then one of them stood up and either latched the door or pressed a little button on the handle and that made it all safe.

Speaker 4 That was Kevin McCarthy who said that?

Speaker 3 At the top. Yeah, Byron Donalds was the one.
What about the 33 bathrooms that weren't full?

Speaker 4 I also think I'm surprised that 33 is that seems like a small number of bathrooms for Mar-a-Lago for me. Yeah, it is a public club.

Speaker 4 Do people stay, like, I have to admit, I've tried to learn as little as possible about Mar-a-Lago. Is it like a hotel? Do people stay there?

Speaker 3 I genuinely don't know. I think they probably have golf.
They seem to have a pool from all the shots I see from above. They do a lot of events, sort of like a country club.

Speaker 4 YMCA cover band, also there.

Speaker 3 Trump likes to DJ from his iPad. We've learned recently from the sort of deck of the veranda.

Speaker 4 These are real fall of empire times happening right now.

Speaker 3 Yeah, truly. But like, okay, so any of these arguments,

Speaker 3 you think they'll just abandon this? Like, does anyone going to keep

Speaker 3 defending the underlying conduct here, or do you think they're all just going to go to the, you know, this treatment of Trump is unfair as compared to Biden and Hillary?

Speaker 4 I think they are going to continue to throw as much shit at the wall as possible because the goal is not really to persuade anyone.

Speaker 4 There are sort of two target audiences for this group of Yahoos who we just heard. One is people who want to be with Trump are looking for any excuse to stick with him and defend him.

Speaker 4 And they will take anything. They will take the Presidential Records Act bullshit.
They'll take the bathroom locks. They'll take...
Joe Biden or what about just whatever it is.

Speaker 4 So you just give them a Cheesecake Factory's menu worth of options. And then the other group are the

Speaker 4 swing, swing voters, not the right word, but sort of the voters who end up deciding elections, the ones who engage, who are inherently skeptical of the media, cynical about politicians, and they do not engage deeply in the news.

Speaker 4 So they don't, they're not paying attention to the differences between the Espionage Act and the Presidential Records Act.

Speaker 4 They don't know how the special counsel is walled off from Merrick Garland and how the Justice Department is walled off from the White House. And so they just throw a bunch of shit out there.

Speaker 4 And then these people will throw up their arms and say, I don't know, I don't care. And they'll disengage on this issue or from the election altogether.
And so, I think that's what's happening here.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I just bore everybody into not listening. Um, Marco Rubio brought up breast for some reason.
I don't know what's wrong with him, I've felt that way for years, but it's worth noting that about

Speaker 3 Trump's document retention, Rubio said, uh, there's no allegation that there was harm done to the national security, there's no allegation that it was sold to a foreign power or that it was trafficked to someone else or that anybody got access to it.

Speaker 3 About Hillary Clinton's email server back in the day, he said, mishandling of classified information was disgraceful and unbecoming of someone who aspires to the presidency.

Speaker 3 Actions were grossly negligent, damaged national security, and put lives at risk.

Speaker 4 So there you go. Wait, are you saying Market Rubio is full of shit?

Speaker 3 I think I am, Dan. I think I'm saying he's inconsistent.
But the difference so far,

Speaker 3 maybe, is that there are some Republicans, including some of Trump's 2024 opponents, who are finding a spine.

Speaker 3 Let's hear from a few.

Speaker 15 If this indictment is true, President Trump was incredibly reckless with our national security. More than that, I'm a military spouse.
My husband's about to deploy this weekend.

Speaker 15 This puts all of our military men and women in danger.

Speaker 16 I do have concerns about all the news about misuse of classified information.

Speaker 16 I happen to be on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and I get classified briefings on a regular basis, and what they did was unacceptable.

Speaker 17 But I do think that even half is true, then he's toast. I mean,

Speaker 17 it's a very detailed indictment, and it's very, very damning. And this idea of presenting Trump as a victim here, a victim of a witch hunt, is ridiculous.

Speaker 3 That was Dickie Haley, Senator John Cornyn, and Ralphie from A Christmas Story, now all grown-up Attorney General Bill Barr.

Speaker 3 Din, am I wrong to feel a little bit hopeful about the fact that there's a small but growing

Speaker 4 not, I wouldn't say it's a chorus yet.

Speaker 3 It's more of an a cappella group worth of Republicans who aren't necessarily like never Trumpers, who are willing to criticize his conduct in this case. In the past, nobody goes first, right?

Speaker 3 They don't want to go first, and there's sort of a collective action problem.

Speaker 4 I think that it's going, that this is going to play out slightly differently in the 2024 primary than it did in the 2016 primary.

Speaker 4 I think everyone to some degree understands that to be the nominee, you're going to have to beat Trump. Now, what a lot of these people are doing, Nikki Haley, most notably,

Speaker 4 are trying to calculate their chances of beating Trump versus their chance of being Trump's VP. And so you're going to see different approaches here.
But I think people are beginning to make a case.

Speaker 4 The problem is it's a mealy mouth version of the case. And too often they are already

Speaker 4 echoing Trump's primary talking points by essentially saying, yes, Joe Biden has weaponized the government to unfairly attack. Donald Trump, but if Donald Trump did these things, that's bad.

Speaker 4 And that's not a strong enough case. You can't reinforce Trump's message narrative and then make the criticism.
You just have to make the criticism. You have to make it strongly.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's fair. Although, you know, I'm trying to find a little hope here.
Like, sometimes politicians float arguments like this. They test the waters.

Speaker 3 They gauge the reaction before kind of walking it back or going all in.

Speaker 3 Maybe that's what's happening here, but I have to assume that everyone in this case is pretty clear-eyed that the MAGA base is going to hate even the lightest criticism.

Speaker 3 Like Mike Pence is calling the allegations very serious. I think Tim Scott said it's a serious case.

Speaker 3 Everyone is leaning, I think rightly, frankly, on innocent until proven guilty because we do live in a nation of laws here. But I don't know.

Speaker 3 It does seem like they're dipping their toes in, but I can't imagine them walking this back.

Speaker 4 I agree with that.

Speaker 4 I think they have to recognize, and I think Ron DeSantis's fall from grace probably is exhibit A of this, that you're going to have to separate Trump from his base if you want to win.

Speaker 4 There's not a lane big enough for something else, so you're going to have to go at it. And that could be very politically painful in the short term and the long run, but it's your only chance.

Speaker 3 Yeah. So the one 2024 candidate who is truly flailing away at Trump is Chris Christie.
He did a CNN town hall the other night. Let's listen to a clip.

Speaker 3 Do you believe President Biden has weaponized the Department of Justice against Donald Trump with these indictments?

Speaker 14 You know, look, I don't think so. Everyone's blaming the prosecutors.

Speaker 14 He did it. It's his conduct.
And let me ask you a question. What exactly was he doing with them? Did someone remind him he's not the president anymore? This is vanity run amok, Anderson.
Run amok.

Speaker 14 Ego run amok. And he is now going to put this country through this when we didn't have to go through it.
He wants to continue to pretend he's president.

Speaker 14 He wants the trappings of the presidency around him. And I think one of those trappings is these documents.

Speaker 14 I am convinced that if he goes back to the White House, that the next four years will all be about him just settling scores. I'm going to take him on directly and not because I don't like him.

Speaker 14 I'm going to take him out directly because he's the leader.

Speaker 14 Like, how do you, I just want to understand the other candidates who won't even mention his name. I watched that Joni Ernst roast and ride thing.
It was like he was Voldemort from Harry Potter.

Speaker 14 Say his name. How do you beat someone if you won't talk about them? How do you beat them if you won't distinguish yourself from them? He hasn't won a damn thing since 2016.

Speaker 14 Don't allow the showmanship to obscure the facts.

Speaker 14 The facts are he lost.

Speaker 3 So, Dan, I mean, the vanity run-amok explanation is interesting. I'm not sure I found it to be like the most compelling argument.
I love the criticism of Trump as a loser.

Speaker 3 What do you think of this message?

Speaker 4 I think that Chris Christie's campaign is a Lincoln project ad come to life in the sense that

Speaker 4 you like it, I like it, our friends on Twitter love it, but every piece of research will show that Republican voters who should be the target of it do not like it.

Speaker 4 And that is as much a messenger problem as it is a message problem. Chris Christie has a minus 54 approval rating in a recent poll among Republicans.
He is a deeply, deeply unpopular individual.

Speaker 3 Minus 54.

Speaker 4 Oh, my God.

Speaker 4 He is only slightly more popular than Mike Pence, who was nearly murdered by his own voters. So that gives you a sense of where he is.
There is a part of it that I think is

Speaker 4 useful and could, I think it's a useful thing. Like if someone wants to get up there and

Speaker 4 kick the living shit out of Trump in a compelling way, that even if Chris Christie never gets a single delegate in the Republican nomination, that has some value to either defeating Trump in the primary or serving as a disqualifier for some more moderate, never Trump Republicans or Trump skeptical Republicans who may view Christie more.

Speaker 4 He may not be in that minus 54 cohort. So I think it's, it's largely, I'm glad he's doing it.
I just don't think it's necessarily going to work.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I'm glad he's doing it too. He is also like, he's a compelling speaker.
He's brash. You know, you're right.
If you have a negative 54 approval rating, you're probably not the best messenger.

Speaker 3 But I have a thought experiment for you, Dan. It's not a fun one.

Speaker 3 As we've discussed, there's a polling threshold and a donor threshold that candidates have to meet to get on the Republican debate stage.

Speaker 3 Let's say Chris Christie has met the polling threshold, but he hasn't hit the 40,000 donor number that he needs to get invited to the debate.

Speaker 3 Would you give him $1 and encourage others to do so to get him on that stage? I'm calling this a Christie's choice.

Speaker 4 I don't think I would do it, and I don't think I would encourage other people to do it. What?

Speaker 3 Fuck, I already did on Pot Save the World.

Speaker 3 Can we cut that and redo it? I'm just kidding.

Speaker 4 Keep going. I mean, if other people, this is one of the things, like, one buck? If people want to give him one buck, great.
They should do it.

Speaker 3 What do you spend it on your avocado toast and your latte, you liberal? Just give them a dollar. Get him on that stage.

Speaker 4 Like I'm recording this in Boston right now. I got to hit a Duncan.
Yeah, I got to go to Duncan. Look, if he want to do it, fine.

Speaker 4 The debate will be more interesting for us, at least, if he is on stage. So great.

Speaker 3 And let's be honest, who knows if Trump will be on that stage at all? He might refuse the debate.

Speaker 4 Yeah. I mean, so then what, like, that's such a boring, stupid debate.
Maybe they'll kick the shit out of Ron DeSantis, but probably not.

Speaker 4 Maybe they'll all just kick the shit out of Trump in absentia, which is going to make them look even weaker.

Speaker 3 So maybe they'll pick someone funny to kick the shit out of him. Like Ramaswamy just gets his ass handed to him for like two hours and then everybody wins.
I don't know. We'll see.

Speaker 3 Okay, we're going to take a quick break. And when you come back, you'll hear Dan's conversation with legal expert and co-host of Crooked Media's amazing legal analysis podcast.

Speaker 3 Strict Scrutiny, you'll hear from Leah Littman. So stick around for that.

Speaker 2 The Kia Sportage Turbo Hybrid has a bold design, a spacious interior with 232 horsepower, and a a 12.3-inch panoramic display to keep the adventure going and fit with the way you live.

Speaker 2 And with SiriusXM, every drive comes alive, bringing you closer to the music, sports, talk, and podcasts you love, right in your vehicle or on the SiriusXM app.

Speaker 2 Every Sirius XM-equipped Kia Sportage Turbo Hybrid includes a three-month trial subscription to SiriusXM, so the experience begins the moment you drive.

Speaker 2 Learn more at kia.com/slash sportage-hybrid, Kia movement that inspires.

Speaker 18 What's poppin', listeners?

Speaker 19 I'm Lacey Mosley, host of the podcast podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it.

Speaker 19 Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time.

Speaker 22 Want to know about the fake heirs?

Speaker 23 We got them. What about a career con man?

Speaker 25 We've got them too.

Speaker 26 Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins.

Speaker 23 Oh, you know they are represented because representation matters.

Speaker 29 I'm joined by guests like Nicole Beyer, Ira Madison III, Conan O'Brien, and more.

Speaker 11 Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 31 Did you know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving? Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway.

Speaker 31 As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with Greenlight Infinity's driving reports.

Speaker 31 Monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding, and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety.

Speaker 31 Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time. Help keep your team safe.
Sign up for Greenlight Infinity at greenlight.com/slash podcast.

Speaker 4 Joining us now to talk about the Trump indictment is our resident legal expert and the co-host of Crooked's fantastic legal podcast, Leah Lippmann. Leah, welcome back to the pod.

Speaker 1 Thanks for having me.

Speaker 4 I listened this morning to the emergency strict scrutiny episode that you and Kate Shaw did in response to the details of the indictment and the arraignment. I encourage everyone to listen to it.

Speaker 4 It is great, but I have some follow-up questions for you. So I'm so glad you're here.

Speaker 1 Let's do it.

Speaker 4 Okay, let's just start with the real basics here. Donald Trump has been arraigned.
He's been given a set of release guidelines, things he can and can't do. What happens next?

Speaker 1 So the initial next steps are going to be a series of discovery processes as well as pre-trial motions.

Speaker 1 So discovery basically means that the government will be exchanging evidence with the defense counsel and defendant

Speaker 1 in order to kind of show them what they have.

Speaker 1 The prosecution also has an obligation under the Supreme Court's decision in Brady versus Maryland to turn over any evidence or material that might be exculpatory to the defense.

Speaker 1 So, basically, any evidence that's favorable to Trump and suggests, you know, he might not be guilty. There might not be any of this, but like, who knows? And then, aside from that,

Speaker 1 the defense will probably start to file motions seeking either access to certain documents if the prosecution isn't turning them over or seeking to challenge various aspects of the prosecution's case, maybe saying it's legally insufficient or other bases to basically prevent the trial from going forward.

Speaker 1 But that's basically what we're looking at next.

Speaker 4 How much does it complicate things that some of the evidence in this trial includes some of the America's most highly classified documents?

Speaker 1 That's likely to complicate things considerably, particularly as part of the prosecution's obligations to turn over evidence that they have, as well as negotiations between the prosecution and the defense to turn over other evidence as well.

Speaker 1 As we noted during the emergency episode, it's not clear that Trump has yet secured a lawyer that has the requisite clearance to look at some of these materials.

Speaker 1 And so there might be some delay in finding a lawyer who could do such a thing or obtaining some permission from the government for one of the lawyers to access the information, but that is likely to lead to additional delays.

Speaker 1 There may also be squabbles over like what sort of procedures or restrictions, you know, the court can put on the defense's ability to look at, you know, the evidence or, you know, have it.

Speaker 1 And so that's likely to happen as well.

Speaker 4 I was, I would say I was more than a little disturbed to hear Kate on your episode say that she was, felt pretty confident that this case would get pushed past the 2024 election.

Speaker 4 Is that your feeling as well?

Speaker 1 It is,

Speaker 1 but

Speaker 1 that's partially because of the judge who is overseeing it. And it's also partially because

Speaker 1 there are going to be some legal issues that courts probably haven't confronted before because there hasn't been a prosecution of a former president who kept classified secret documents in bathrooms

Speaker 1 after the federal government was trying to take them back. So

Speaker 1 it's not like that judge can just point to, well, here's a case that said, you know, no, former presidents can't just keep classified secret documents like strewn about the bathroom and wave their hands saying some things about the Presidential Records Act.

Speaker 1 And also because this judge has shown Judge Aileen Cannon that she is more than willing to kind of go out of her way to be indulgent, you know, too much so of Trump's legal strategies and legal arguments.

Speaker 1 And so those are the two things that lead me to think this is probably not going to be settled before the 2024 election. Of course, you know, there might be surprises.
Sometimes that happens.

Speaker 1 But yeah, I kind of agreed with Kate's prediction.

Speaker 4 Is there an argument or a legal process that Jack Smith can follow to try to expedite the trial here, given the very real, one, that the voters will, you know, should have a say here, but also that Trump, if re-elected, could pardon himself?

Speaker 1 I mean, of course, you know, the special counsel, just based on the length of the indictment, the fact that it is a speaking indictment that laid laid out, you know, all of the evidence in very clear fashion, it seems like that office is really trying to make the process and this case as easy and as simple as possible.

Speaker 1 So of course, right, they can try to expeditiously and clearly respond to whatever requests Trump's lawyers are going to make and say, no, right, that's not warranted, right? This is bananas.

Speaker 1 And like, here are all of the reasons why.

Speaker 1 And they can try to move the case along a similar timeline as other cases in that particular jurisdiction, which again is among the faster, you know, areas for handling cases in the United States.

Speaker 1 So yes, of course, they can, you know, respond to motions that Trump's counsel may file. They can make requests of the court and propose their own timelines.

Speaker 1 But, you know, at the end of the day, the schedule is going to be determined by the district judge overseeing this case who has very limited experience with criminal cases and certainly no experience with criminal cases that involve

Speaker 1 really novel facts and a host of legal issues that haven't been presented to courts before and again is pretty indulgent of Donald Trump thus far in related litigation.

Speaker 4 I mean, when you say limited experience in criminal trials, isn't it four trials that last a total of 14 days in her career?

Speaker 1 Yes, that is the limited experience I was referring to. Now, of course, she hasn't been on the bench that long.
She was kind of confirmed in the lame duck session, you know, in 2020.

Speaker 1 But yeah, she does not have a ton of criminal law experience.

Speaker 4 The ultimate decision of recusal starts with her, but Jack Smith could try to force it by appealing above her. Is that correct? And do you think he should do that?

Speaker 4 Or does that, or is he stuck between this terrible choice between trying to get a more experienced, potentially less biased judge, and further delaying this likely to be delayed case.

Speaker 1 Yes. So he could first ask Judge Cannon, and if she refuses, seek what's called, you know, a writ of mandamus from the Court of Appeals, you know, and if that fails, you know, ask the Supreme Court.

Speaker 1 But in addition to the delay factors that you note, and if the special counsel wants this case to proceed quickly, then that would, you know, operate kind of intention with any recusal requests.

Speaker 1 I think, again, given Judge Judge Cannon's willingness to bend the law to favor Donald Trump, the government is,

Speaker 1 and this is going to sound scary, kind of relying once again on the 11th Circuit, which is a very conservative court of appeals, and the U.S.

Speaker 1 Supreme Court, which is also super majority justices appointed by Republican presidents.

Speaker 1 Those are the two courts that they are relying on to basically police Judge Cannon's, you know, abuse of the law.

Speaker 1 And the government needs to be able to maintain credibility and not annoy those courts and those judges and justices in the event that Judge Cannon does something insane and they need to ask one of those courts to intervene.

Speaker 1 And it's that posture that makes it really difficult for lawyers in general and federal government lawyers in particular to sound the alarms about what is happening with our courts because they need to maintain a posture under which they're not really pushing any of the federal courts' buttons or annoying them too much.

Speaker 4 Aaron Powell, Jr.: One time when you were on the show during a previous potential indictment of President Trump, I asked you to pretend to be his legal defense attorney.

Speaker 4 I am not going to do that again. I still feel bad about that to this day.

Speaker 4 But I do, you know, I think it's where we should all remember, particularly those of us who get everything we know about law from your podcast, that the indictment is essentially the government's best case, right?

Speaker 4 It does not include exculpatory evidence. It does not include what Trump's defenses could be.
What do you so there have to be some holes in this case, theoretically?

Speaker 4 What do you, where do you think Trump's, when he, if and when he finds a defense attorney, what do you think that defense will be?

Speaker 1 I think the defense is going to focus on a few different things.

Speaker 1 One is similar to what we talked about last time, there's probably going to be some allegations, and to be clear, I think they're unsubstantiated and unsupported, but allegations of prosecutorial misconduct and that this is basically political retribution, you know, and a political prosecution.

Speaker 1 So that's going to be one angle. I think that a second angle is probably going to be

Speaker 1 some version of the argument we heard in Trump's post-arraignment speech slash campaign event, which was also the line of argument he pursued before Judge Cannon in an earlier round of litigation in this case, which is that

Speaker 1 these documents are somehow his

Speaker 1 and you know they're kind of invoking the Presidential Records Act, which makes no sense.

Speaker 1 Previous times they've suggested, you know, he declassified them, or there's going to be some kind of variation of this argument where they're going to say basically all of the documents created by any federal agency are prepared for the president, and the president owns them and can kind of do what he wants with them.

Speaker 1 Again, this argument makes no sense of the law and is absolutely insane, but we'll probably see some variation of that.

Speaker 1 And then the third is you know, on those charges that actually require the government to show that President Trump knowingly, you know, defied the government's orders or knowingly, you know, concealed and refused to give over classified secret information.

Speaker 1 We'll probably hear challenges that, oh, he didn't actually know that, or he didn't actually understand that he didn't have the legal authority to possess that.

Speaker 1 That's why, you know, the recorded audio conversation of him admitting, I know I can't actually declassify this is so damning and important, but those would be my early predictions about what we're likely to see.

Speaker 4 Do you think will try to get his attorney's notes thrown out?

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 So they are also certainly going to challenge some of the evidence underlying the obstruction of justice charges, in particular, relate to conversations that Donald Trump had with his lawyers, during which he basically told the lawyers, don't comply with this subpoena, or can we just hide the documents or something like that?

Speaker 1 And of course, they are likely to assert that any conversations and directives between Trump and his lawyers are privileged and subject to attorney-client privilege.

Speaker 1 Now, in another case in D.C., a district judge concluded that even though the conversations were between Trump and his lawyer, those conversations were not protected by attorney-client privilege because they fell with...

Speaker 1 They fell within what's known as the crime fraud exception, where if you are committing a crime with your lawyer or using your lawyer in furtherance of a crime, you know, that's not privileged.

Speaker 1 But Judge Cannon will basically decide that anew here.

Speaker 1 And so that will also probably be a challenge to the government's ability to use some evidence or some theories to support an obstruction charge as well as some others.

Speaker 4 I will say a lot of legal terms can be obscure and confusing, but the crime fraud acceptance, particularly well-named

Speaker 4 piece of legal jargon.

Speaker 1 Yeah, no, very apt here.

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 4 Trump obviously has a very full dance card when it comes to his legal entanglements. He has a trial scheduled around a civil investigation into his businesses in New York.

Speaker 4 He has his other indictments scheduled for next March. We are looking at potentially two more indictments in the coming months.

Speaker 4 Does this indictment in this case affect the timing of his New York case?

Speaker 4 Attorney General James in New York at a Pod Save America show on Monday night suggested it could affect both her case against the Trump organization and Alvin Bragg's

Speaker 4 indictment against Trump on the hush money payments.

Speaker 1 I mean, it absolutely could.

Speaker 1 You can imagine, right, Trump's defense lawyer saying, you know, we cannot be defending, you know, three proceedings simultaneously and basically asking for continuances from some.

Speaker 1 You know, on the other hand, committing a bunch of different crimes and being charged with all of them is not exactly supposed to be a defense to any one particular trial or proceeding.

Speaker 1 But I do think that courts, again, because they are giving him additional process and additional protections, given the importance of these proceedings,

Speaker 1 it's likely that if there is some conflict between the timeline of these cases, that they will basically allow him to delay some of the proceedings while others play out.

Speaker 4 Oftentimes, when we have you on the show, for reasons unrelated to Trump's criminality, it is about terrible things the Supreme Court has done or is about to do.

Speaker 4 Today they actually did something good. Could you explain the somewhat surprising and very important decision the Supreme Court made today?

Speaker 1 Sure. So the court in large part upheld the Indian Child Welfare Act.

Speaker 1 It turned away two major challenges to that federal law that contains a bunch of really important protections for Native families that make it more difficult to break up Native families and more difficult to place Native children outside of Native communities.

Speaker 1 Now, it is surprising in the sense that the court often does shitty, bad, lawless things.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 4 that would be the rule. This would be the exception, I guess.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 But on this particular challenge, based on how the oral argument went,

Speaker 1 we did expect that the court was going to rule against those challenges. Now, technically, it didn't rule on two other challenges, one of which is the equal protection challenge.

Speaker 1 that maintained that the Indian Child Welfare Act by protecting Native Americans actually engage in unconstitutional race discrimination.

Speaker 1 And what the court said is we're not going to address that challenge because the plaintiffs in this case aren't actually injured by the relevant provisions in the Indian Child Welfare Act that contain these placement preferences.

Speaker 1 And Justice Kavanaugh wrote a concurrence that was like, well, you know, if there were such a case that ever came before the court, you know, it's possible that I might rule for this equal protection challenge and invalidate parts of ICWA.

Speaker 1 But, you know, the court again turned away major challenges to ICWA

Speaker 1 and upheld the statute to the extent it addressed the challenges. So that is happy, welcome news.

Speaker 1 And not to claim too much credit, but I will just point out that strict scrutiny went to DC last week for the live show. And ever since then, the court has basically been behaving.

Speaker 1 So is that causation, is that correlation? I'm not sure, but of note.

Speaker 4 I think that's notable.

Speaker 4 I think maybe you should get back to DC since there are decisions on affirmative action, LGBTQ plus rights, and a whole bunch of other things that the Supreme Court could drop on our head any day.

Speaker 1 Indeed,

Speaker 1 usually I'm the downer, but that one was from you.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, it's very rare there is a conversation with two people where I am not the downer. So I feel like in my natural role here.

Speaker 4 Okay, Leah Lippmann, thank you so much for joining us. We will talk to you again soon.

Speaker 1 Sounds good.

Speaker 18 What's poppin' listeners?

Speaker 19 I'm Lacey Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time.

Speaker 22 Want to know about the fake heirs?

Speaker 23 We got them. What about a career con man?

Speaker 25 We've got them too.

Speaker 26 Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins.

Speaker 23 Oh, you know they are represented because representation matters.

Speaker 29 I'm joined by guests like Nicole Beyer, Ira Madison III, Conan O'Brien, and more.

Speaker 30 Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 31 Did you know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving? Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway.

Speaker 31 As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with Greenlight Infinity's driving reports.

Speaker 31 Monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding, and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety.

Speaker 31 Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time. Help keep your teens safe.
Sign up for Greenlight Infinity at greenlight.com slash podcast.

Speaker 32 With TikTok ads, our revenue went up $10 million year over year during back-to-school season. Penn Foster is online education.

Speaker 32 TikTok is great because the reach is incredible for finding a lot of different types of audiences on the platform. Creator content at scale allowed us to easily develop and distribute creator-led ads.

Speaker 32 Our return on ad spend for TikTok is 21% higher than the Nexbest channel.

Speaker 3 Start growing your business today. Head over to getstarted.tiktok.com slash TikTok ads.

Speaker 3 All right, before we go, we did also want to talk about California Governor Gavin Newsom's hour-long interview with Fox News host Sean Hannity. Here is a sampling of how it went.

Speaker 33 I will tell you on every measure from the economy, inflation, borders, energy,

Speaker 34 national security, he's missing an action.

Speaker 33 Let's talk about them in order.

Speaker 7 Let's talk about it. Hang on.

Speaker 6 Wait, but I want to challenge the premise. You said the economy, 13.1 million jobs he's created.

Speaker 35 More than... These are post-COVID jobs.
You know that.

Speaker 36 That's an artificial number. But no, no, no.

Speaker 6 Then let me stipulate this as an opportunity to engage civilly on this.

Speaker 5 Okay.

Speaker 35 Fair point.

Speaker 6 Your president, Donald Trump, lost 2.6 million jobs during his four years. We've created 13.1 million.
Fine, you can maintain a COVID frame.

Speaker 6 How about the fact that Joe Biden's created more jobs, six times more jobs than the previous three Republican presidents?

Speaker 33 You're buying.

Speaker 6 I think he's a man of decency and character.

Speaker 36 I'm really proud of the president. I'm proud of what he's accomplished.

Speaker 33 He's strong enough to be president.

Speaker 33 I'm strong enough.

Speaker 5 Look at what he just did to McCarthy.

Speaker 7 He ran circles.

Speaker 5 Look at the vote card.

Speaker 36 Kevin just got played. I wouldn't vote for it.
Exactly. Kevin got played by the president of the United States.

Speaker 33 You would do a two-hour debate with Ron DeSantis. I would make it three.

Speaker 7 Three-hour debate with Ronald Paul. Yeah, make it four.
And you're going to be able to make it.

Speaker 6 Do it with one-day notice with no notes. I look forward to that.
Okay, I'm a border state. Ron DeSantis is not.
I know he's desperate to get into the action.

Speaker 35 No, because a lot of people are.

Speaker 4 He's belly flopped.

Speaker 6 Donald Trump is going to clean

Speaker 4 DeSantis is belly flopped.

Speaker 35 He will clean his clock. He needs

Speaker 5 attention. And he set this up months ago by doing an RFP.

Speaker 6 I have the contractors

Speaker 5 that he tried to hire saying he was going to send people to California. This is a stunt.

Speaker 35 It's embarrassing.

Speaker 36 It's pathetic.

Speaker 3 I like how Hannity crumples up paper or whatever. Gavin is doing well in that conversation.
Dan, let's divide this into two parts, performance and then the venue.

Speaker 3 How did you think Gavin did in terms of his performance?

Speaker 4 He was great. He was really, really good.
He was prepared. He was crisp.
Other than that one use of the term RFP, he spoke like

Speaker 4 a normal human, explained things in very easy to understand ways.

Speaker 4 I think he dealt with the Biden age question

Speaker 4 in like the most easily understood way possible, particularly with this audience with if Biden is not strong, why did he just run circles around Kevin McCarthy in the debt ceiling deal, which worked really well because Sean Hannity opposed a debt ceiling deal.

Speaker 4 And so it was very, it was very, very well done.

Speaker 3 Yeah, he was so much better prepared for this interview than Sean Hannity was, even though Sean had his little charts in his brown paper bag. But like Gavin had command of the facts.

Speaker 3 He pushed back hard. I thought he was civil and thoughtful.
He didn't seem defensive.

Speaker 3 Like when Hannity started pressing him on homelessness numbers in California, Gavin said the status quo is disgraceful. You know, he was just like very honest about that.

Speaker 3 The tone, though, was positive and impressive. I think it's worth noting that what Fox News did with that performance was turn around and use...

Speaker 3 Gavin's performance to contrast with Biden to make Biden look old. Now, Gavin Newsom can't control that, but that's just what Fox does.
I spent some time with Gavin Newsome fairly recently.

Speaker 3 I'll be honest, I went into it feeling like, I'm not really sure about this guy. I don't know what I think about him.
I came out really impressed. He clearly works his ass off.

Speaker 3 He has, in private conversations and on TV, he has facts like this at his fingertips at all times. He memorizes a lot of stuff because he's dyslexic.

Speaker 3 And this is how he works. He just commits things to memory.

Speaker 3 As you and I know, Dan,

Speaker 3 having lots of facts and statistics available to you as a communicator can cut both ways.

Speaker 3 We saw Obama do really well with this and not, but in this case, he really did well with Hannity. I also think Gavin is super competitive.
He wants Democrats to be tough. He wants to win.

Speaker 3 You can tell that he hates Ron DeSantis' guts. Anyone who wants to spend three hours with that guy at a debate or anywhere else has something going on.

Speaker 3 He is very worried about the information bubbles. I think he said it to Hannity in this interview, and he clearly watches Fox all the time.

Speaker 3 I told Gavin that I would like to see him go on Joe Rogan's show because I think Rogan's got a big audience of people who are far more likely to be persuaded than the typical Fox voter.

Speaker 3 But that gets us to this question of why do you think he did Hannity and do you think that's the right venue?

Speaker 4 I am someone who has been pretty skeptical of Democrats spending their time going on Fox, largely for the reason you said, which is even if you do great in the moment, they will take what you say, cut it up and weaponize it on all the 23 other hours of the day where they're trying to destroy democracy in America.

Speaker 4 But in this case, I think there are some exceptions that Democrats don't go on Fox Rule.

Speaker 4 And that is for a certain number of communicators who are talented enough and have a plan to go in there and win the fight and win the fight in a way that will go viral beyond just the people who happen to be tuning into Hannity at that time at night, because none of those people are persuadable.

Speaker 4 Just there's very few of them. The odds that any of them live in a battleground state are quite small.

Speaker 4 because he did it and he did it well, it went viral and got attention elsewhere. And people will consume it by osmosis on social media through other coverage.

Speaker 4 And so I think it was the right thing to do.

Speaker 4 And what you want to do in this sort of disaggregated media environment is do things that get attention beyond the people who are watching the moment in which you do it.

Speaker 4 And so he had a plan to do it and he did it well.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, I think in 2020, there was this big controversy about whether Democrats should go on Fox News and do these special town halls they were creating.

Speaker 3 And I think what's gotten forgotten about that debate was that it happened in the midst of a major effort to get advertisers to boycott Fox.

Speaker 3 And that's why people were so pissed about it. But this broader question of like whether Democrats should go on Fox or not is not a new one.
We struggled with this in 2009. I agree with you.

Speaker 3 I think what made Gavin's interview so smart and compelling was it won't just reach those Hannity viewers, but it became like a media event that was covered unto itself.

Speaker 3 And that will get his brand out. It'll get the message out.
If I worked at the White House, Would I advise Joe Biden to do Fox News?

Speaker 3 No, because I think ultimately, like, there's more downside than upside. And when the chips are down, we know that Fox is going to go all in for the Republican Party.

Speaker 3 We read all the Dominion emails about what they really think about the

Speaker 3 call in 2020 for the election. We saw the other night.

Speaker 3 They called Biden a wannabe dictator in a Chiron. I'm not sure that's the most like level, even-handed place.
But I agree with you. I think surrogate should go on.

Speaker 3 I think Democrats should go on who are ready to push back hard and do it with a smile. But I do think, to your point, Dan, like big picture, I agree.

Speaker 3 Like, Fox News is not really the the audience I'm worried about. The average Hannity viewer is probably like 70 years old and super conservative and not about to change.

Speaker 3 The people I think about a lot are like disaffected voters who feel like politics is lame, a waste of time. All politicians are the same.
So why even bother?

Speaker 3 And I think increasingly you see polling where there's young men of all races falling into this category, like kind of like Joe Rogan, kind of barstool sports fans, demographic.

Speaker 3 And I think if you want to persuade people who are skeptical and hard to reach, I think you need to make a push there and just help those people understand that like politics isn't annoying people who annoy you on Twitter or cable news from both sides.

Speaker 3 It's like you vote for the person who sends your buddy to Iraq or not.

Speaker 3 You vote for the person who says your mom with breast cancer has a precondition and can't get health care or the person who fixes that problem and allows your mom who had breast cancer to get health insurance.

Speaker 3 Or, you know, you vote for someone who thinks that trans kids should be treated like human beings like everyone else in this country or not and I think finding those people and talking to them about kind of like the underlying stakes of politics are what is so important and making them understand that

Speaker 3 No, all politicians are not the same. Like we're all smart people.
We can all figure out where they stand on things and figure out who is making choices that matter to you.

Speaker 3 And I think getting to those folks is the hardest part of politics. It's not even the message.
It's like the delivery mechanism.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think that's exactly right. You know, I don't disagree with you that I don't think Joe Biden should go on Fox per se.
I think there really is, there's this question about

Speaker 4 going, why are you going on Fox? Are you going on Fox to reach some sort of mythical Fox viewing open to Democrat voter? That's a mistake.

Speaker 4 Thinking that like Brett Baer is going to give you a fair shot or some stupid shit like that.

Speaker 3 What if you do it to get a reservation to Cafe Milano?

Speaker 4 Is that a good reason? Sorry, keep going.

Speaker 4 Is he still allowed there? I guess he probably is.

Speaker 3 I don't know. God knows.

Speaker 4 But I think if you, you know, Joe Biden, I'm not saying he should do Fox. I just want to stipulate that.

Speaker 4 But some of his best moments are when he's mixing it up with Republicans, like during the State of the Union.

Speaker 4 So in the course of this campaign, as it, as it unfolds over the next year and a half here, like some moments like that, you know, I think when he gets into a little bit of a argument or something with Peter Doocy during either, you know, Q ⁇ A's or press conferences, whatever.

Speaker 4 He usually comes off pretty good, I think. I mean, I even thought when he called him a son of a bitch, that was pretty good too.

Speaker 4 Like he seems human and real and on his game.

Speaker 4 And so finding some like moments of conflict like that, it's not worth, you know, you don't want to give Sean Hannity or the rest of these Yahoos the president of the United States, which would be a huge boost for them ratings-wise and advertising dollar-wise.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 4 there is something in what Gavin Newsom did that also works for Biden.

Speaker 3 So, so Joe Biden should go on Newsmax and start the interview like, listen, you piece of shit, and kind of go from there.

Speaker 4 Just have a super viral. Just grab the guy by his collars and just say, listen to me.

Speaker 3 Just shake him, have a Secret Service guy come in and take care of him. I think that's great advice.
I hope Ben LeBold is listening to this right now.

Speaker 4 He never misses an episode.

Speaker 3 He's got nothing better to do. Dan, last question for you before we let you go.

Speaker 4 Listeners.

Speaker 3 probably know that you're like a famous YouTube star and you do this show called like Experts React or some shit like that.

Speaker 3 And I've been doing this really fun new show on YouTube with my friend Brian Tyler Cohen, where we, you know, we draft and rank fun things like the greatest campaign gaffs in history.

Speaker 3 It's called Liberal Tears. And for some reason, you keep attacking us on your show, which is, you know, far more people watch it.

Speaker 3 And I'm just wondering why you feel the need to gatekeep YouTube and what Brian did to you to get us to this place and how we can kind of fix it.

Speaker 4 Is your show, what is your show called again? I thought it was.

Speaker 3 Liberal Tears, but T-I-E-R-S.

Speaker 4 Oh, I thought it was called Brian's Coattails.

Speaker 4 Oh, my God.

Speaker 3 He is like a YouTube star.

Speaker 4 He is a gigantic YouTube star. Yes.
Look, I love your show. It's great.

Speaker 4 We have a little fun competition around here. You know, I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to keep up.

Speaker 3 Okay, well, look, the next episode is coming out on Wednesday, June 21st. It features some truly sadistic punishments for the loser of our competition in the previous episode.

Speaker 3 I spent the morning borrowing my

Speaker 3 to wipe a

Speaker 3 off my fucking back. So make sure you subscribe to the Pod America YouTube.

Speaker 3 And if Dan keeps coming after us, Elon, if you're listening, because Dan is trying to deplatform us, we are willing to take the Tucker Carlson deal and take the show to Twitter.

Speaker 4 Look, I think that's a great pitch. If you love sadism,

Speaker 4 watch that show.

Speaker 3 Thank you. Thank you very much.
I still have fucking, anyway. Final note.
We just wanted to say a big thank you to our amazing producer, Andy Garter Birdstein. This is her last week.

Speaker 3 She has been a critical part of the team that works their asses off long hours to make this show happen.

Speaker 3 We are incredibly grateful to her, to everybody that works here, but incredibly grateful to Andy in this moment, and we'll miss her and just want to say thank you.

Speaker 4 You know Andy because of the sock puppets, but Andy has done an incredible job on this show, helping us make the show that we want to make, helping us return to having a lot of fun on the show.

Speaker 4 She has been a huge asset to Crookie Media and Ponce America, and we're going to miss her.

Speaker 3 Damn right. And those sock puppets were just incredible.

Speaker 3 Just, I i mean they looked they're uncanny how do you make a sock puppet that good anyway well that's it for this week's episode i'm about to get in the car and just drive over to john's house and just sort of like ladle soup into his mouth or something we're gonna baby bird him back to health so uh we'll let you go dan and uh talk to everybody we have no episode tuesday because it's juneteenth so i think the next episode is thursday bye everyone

Speaker 3 Pod Save America is a crooked media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez.
Our producers are Andy Gardner Gardner-Bernstein and Olivia Martinez.

Speaker 3 It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglund and Charlotte Landis.

Speaker 3 Thanks to Hallie Kiefer, Madeleine Herringer, Ari Schwartz, Andy Taft, and Justine Howe for production support.

Speaker 3 And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Mia Kelman, Ben Hefcoat, and David Toles.

Speaker 3 Subscribe to Pod Save America on YouTube to catch full episodes, exclusive content, and other community events. Find us at youtube.com/slash at PodSave America.

Speaker 18 What's poppin' listeners?

Speaker 19 I'm Lacey Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week, I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time.

Speaker 22 Want to know about the fake heirs?

Speaker 23 We got them. What about a career con man?

Speaker 25 We've got them too.

Speaker 26 Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins.

Speaker 23 Oh, you know they are represented because representation matters.

Speaker 29 I'm joined by guests like Nicole Beyer, Ira Madison III, Conan O'Brien, and more.

Speaker 11 Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 31 Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families.

Speaker 31 With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids' spending with real-time notifications.

Speaker 31 Kids learn to earn, save, and and spend wisely, and parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place.

Speaker 31 Sign up for Greenlight today at greenlight.com/slash podcast.