Trump Cancels Kimmel

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Welcome to Pod Save America.

I'm Jon Favreau.

I'm Dan Pfeiffer.

And I'm Alex Wagner.

Alex, it's great to have you here in person.

What a thrill.

And do we have a big announcement?

We sure do.

Alex is joining the Pod Save America family and coming back to the Crooked Network.

I say back because you did have a pod announcement.

I did.

It was a limited edition.

It was just a pop-up.

Limited no longer.

You're going to be a regular contributor to this show.

What?

Pod Save America.

Nobody told me that.

And hosting a new show for us starting in October.

What can you tell us about the new pod?

The new pod, named TBD, we got some good frontrunners.

We're going to drop that later on in the month.

I will be bringing you stories from the frontline.

I mean, I think one of the things that's missing in all of this news is we got a lot of analysis, but we don't have a lot of storytelling about how these policies and how these, you know, how the politics themselves are playing out at the human level.

And so we will be talking to people who are at the center of the headlines, whether they are red state farmers or anti-vaxxers in Texas or undocumented migrants caught in dragnets.

I mean, you're going to really get a visceral emotional perspective on what's playing out in our national dialogue.

And then we're pairing that with some really smart, you know, contextualizing from the brightest minds I know.

I'm sure you guys will be drafted in when we can't book those people.

I'm just kidding.

You are those people.

I was going to make that joke myself.

No, but

I'm really excited.

I am someone that has a real passion for

talking to people who are outside of the studio.

And I think this will complement what is out there and the suite of incredible programming you have here at Kirken.

So I'm super thrilled.

And let's just be honest, the snacks here are A plus.

I mean,

that's high praise.

I mean, it's our X bars, people.

What's not to love?

We are so excited about this, and I'm especially excited you're doing that show because you are so good at going out into the world and talking to folks.

And I've watched you do it for many years and

love talking to you about politics always on and off mic, on and off screen.

And so we feel very, very lucky to have you.

We're super excited.

Super excited.

Dan's here in person.

Like

just for the day.

It's unbelievable.

I feel so, I almost, like, I almost started crying.

It was weird.

You requested that in your negotiations that I'd be here on your first day, but I was willing to do it.

Contractual obligation, but thank you for taking one for the team, Dan.

It's great to see you in person.

Well, what a first day.

Whoa.

What a first day.

We have a lot of awfulness to cover just for you.

Thanks.

We got government crackdowns.

We got political purges, anti-vax kooks causing mayhem, and Kamala Harris spilling the tea about 2024.

But let's start with Donald Trump using the power of the state to cancel a late-night show that made fun of him.

I just want to quickly go through the chain of events that led Disney to pull Jimmy Kimmel off the air, because there seems to be some confusion.

willful or not, over how this went down.

So here's Trump's reaction back in July to cbs canceling stephen colbert show which took place as the media company needed trump's fcc to approve its merger he said quote i absolutely love that colbert got fired i hear jimmy kimmel is next

now here's jimmy kimmel's initial reaction to charlie kirk's assassination uh i think this was the night after it happened let's listen We're like the rest of the country, we're still trying to wrap our heads around the senseless murder of the popular podcaster and conservative activist Charlie Kirk yesterday, whose death has amplified our anger, our differences.

And I've seen a lot of extraordinarily vile responses to this from both sides of the political spectrum.

Some people are cheering this, which is something I won't ever understand.

Jimmy also posted on social media, like hours after the assassination, quote, instead of the angry finger pointing, can we just for one day agree that it is horrible and monstrous to shoot another human?

On behalf of my family, we send love to the Kirks and to all the children, parents, and innocents who fall victim to senseless gun violence.

So then

on Monday,

earlier this week, Kimmel again talked about the assassination.

And this was the night before the press conference where law enforcement confirmed for the first time

reports that the killer had left-leaning political views.

We had heard that it was probably the case from Governor Spencer Cox on some of the Sunday shows, but this was the first we heard from law enforcement at the press conference where they actually

laid out the charges against the killer.

So let's listen to the clip that got Kimmel in all this trouble.

We had some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can to score political points from it.

In response to that, FCC Chairman Brendan Carr went on Benny Johnson's podcast, as one does,

and said the following.

You know, when you look at the conduct that has taken place by Jimmy Kimmel,

it appears to be some of the sickest conduct possible.

Frankly, when you see stuff like this, I mean, look, we can do this the easy way or the hard way.

These companies can find ways to change conduct, to take action, frankly, on Kimmel, or, you know, there's going to be additional work for the FCC ahead.

I think that it's really sort of of past time that a lot of these licensed broadcasters themselves push back on Comcast and Disney and say, listen, we are going to preempt.

We are not going to run Kimmel anymore until you straighten this out because we, we, licensed broadcasters, are running the possibility of fines or license revocation from the FCC if we continue to run content that ends up being a pattern of news distortion.

Hours later, one of those licensed broadcasters that he was talking about, the media conglomerate Nexstar, which runs a lot of local ABC affiliates and also,

just by coincidence, needs Trump's FCC to approve its merger with another broadcaster, they announced that they would pull Kimmel's show from all of their local affiliates.

Right after that, Disney ABC made the decision to suspend the show indefinitely, which is where we are as of this recording on Thursday afternoon.

And in case there's still any confusion about the government's role in all this, Donald Trump and his FCC chairman celebrated the news on social media by congratulating ABC.

And then the president said this on his flight home from the UK.

I won everything.

And

if they're 97% against, they give me holy bad publicity or press.

I mean, they're getting a license.

I would think

maybe their license should be taken away.

It would be up to Brendan Carr.

I think Brendan Carr is outstanding.

Of course you do.

So we got Trump influencers out there saying this isn't a government crackdown on free speech.

It was a private business deciding to take action against a host who made comments that they found inaccurate and inappropriate.

Thoughts, Alex?

Just correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the statement we can do this the easy way or we can do this the hard way, what mob hitmen say right before they take someone out?

I mean, the lack of subtlety here is staggering.

The idea, first of all, if we get into the comments themselves from Jimmy, he's actually not even talking about Charlie Kirk.

He's talking about the MAGA right.

And if you're looking, I mean, there's going to be a lot of parsing about how much was known and how much wasn't known, but at the end of the day, this wasn't actually a statement about Charlie Kirk or his legacy.

It was about the behavior of the MAGA right.

And you can take issue with that.

You cannot like the characterization, but is it reason to end someone's television show?

I mean, I don't think it's even close.

And if you compare that to what happens elsewhere and especially on the other side of the aisle, and not that Jimmy Kimmel is a leftist propagandist,

It's terrifying.

And I will say, it's not the end, right?

What we are learning, and I think it's very meaningful, that ABC is also the network that opened the door to settling with Trump and normalized it after George Stephanophoulos made comments that Trump didn't like and they settled for $15 million.

And I think, you know, that there's a thinking that appease Trump once and he'll go easier on you the second time.

And the reality is the only people that bend the knee further are the people that bent it the first time.

What does that metaphor mean?

I don't know, but I just, the fact that ABC is...

On both knees bent now.

I think it made, well, they're on both knees.

We're going to let that metaphor lie.

I just think it made it easier for Bob Iger to say, we're going to do this because they'd done it once.

And that should be chilling, given the fact that there are other networks that have also made settlements with Trump.

And I'm sure there are lawsuits to follow.

Dan, what do you think?

I mean, he explicitly threatens ABC first because he says, Alex, I'm easier the hard way.

And then if it's the hard way the fcc is going to have more work to do meaning they're going to open an investigation and just go beyond what your point about nexstar is so nexstar has a bunch of local television affiliates they are trying to buy another conglomerate they don't just need fcc approval for the deal they need the fcc to lift what is called the 39 cap because no

By FCC rule, no single entity can own TV stations that reach more than 40% of the public.

So they have everything writing on this.

And he very, that this is why, in a very obvious and nefarious way, Brennan Carr mentioned the local affiliates because that's where the leverage is.

That's the, that's where he could put pressure on.

And they did it.

And this is not ABC or just a company making a decision.

You know, this is not consequences.

This is a government censorship.

This is a government threatening a private business with regulation or in the case of these local affiliates, potential financial collapse.

if they do not do what the government wants.

And in this case, what the government wanted was to end the show of a late-night comedy host over one comment made.

Can I also just say,

if the FCC does rewrite the rules for Nexstar, they'll have access to 80%

of American television screens at home.

I mean, that's

a sphere of influence.

You know who else jumped up to poke their head out to talk about this?

It's Sinclair broadcasting.

It was like, yeah, absolutely.

We're going to pull Jimmy Kimmel too.

And also, we should go for, and we're going to do a, I think Sinclair promised that they're going to like devote a couple hours to

Charlie Kirk, like either the funeral, either the memorial service or just like maybe.

They're going to air a memorial documentary during the Jimmy Kimmel hour.

Right.

That's what Sinclair.

They were originally going to preempt Jimmy Kimmel with this.

And they want Jimmy Kimmel to make a donation.

They don't think him being taken off the air is sufficient.

And I believe they want a formal apology and a donation to Charlie Kirk's family.

I thought it was a Turning Point USA.

I mean, who knows?

Perhaps it's Turning Point USA, his political family.

Yes.

If Jimmy Kimmel had said, if the joke was around, like,

you know, and

we think now it could be a MAGA person who did this, like that is going further than he did.

That would still not be a reason to take him off the air, right?

That is a factual inaccuracy that then he could come on the next day and be like, oh, I'm going to correct it.

Which he was planning to do before they took his show off the air.

What he said just then wasn't even technically inaccurate.

If you were actually going to go parse the fucking statement, which I hate doing because that's not the point.

But like he's saying that over the weekend, MAGA was trying to point it anywhere but themselves.

And of course, they were doing that.

It just turned out to be someone who was left-leaning.

And if you didn't watch the Sunday shows and saw that Spencer Cox said, oh, we think now it's left-wing ideology, you wouldn't have known because the only other people that were saying it's radical left was Donald Trump and the administration offering no evidence for that.

Exactly.

And as soon as I heard the actual district attorney get up at a press conference on Tuesday and say, here are the text messages, then I was like, oh, yeah, of course.

After that, no one should pretend, I think,

it's a MAGA person or it's anyone but what he's saying is in the text.

And I complained about this earlier.

Some people are like, maybe the texts are doctored.

And it's like, no, the texts are not doctored.

We are aware of that.

The district attorney does not, this is evidence in a trial, you know?

Well, I will also say Brendan Carr has done a lot of media since this happened, and his, even his indignation shape-shifts, right?

Sometimes it's directed at, you know, what Kimmel said, and sometimes it's about the ideology that Kimmel represented.

And it's just very clear that this wasn't, it was no crisis should go wasted or every crisis is an opportunity.

And it's clear that he saw, as many Trump lackeys do, an opportunity to get in good with the big boss, right?

We know that Donald Trump wants Jimmy Kimmel to to be next.

So let's find a way to get Jimmy Kimmel off the air.

I mean, I get the affiliates.

What is Disney ABC doing?

Well, Disney has big business, right?

I mean, all of these companies have big business.

They have a deal with the NFL, which is critical to the future of ESPN.

Sports are a huge part of the survival of linear television and cable.

And Bob Iger understands that.

And some of that business may come before the FCC.

And look, Trump has made no secret of punishing his enemies and rewarding his allies.

And they'd rather stay in his good graces when they have millions of dollars on the line.

And this is ultimately the problem with CBS in the Paramount settlement is the news and quasi-news functions at these large corporations that own media companies are not, they're meaningless in the bottom line, right?

We don't know that Kimmel's losing money, but you look at all the other shows, it probably is, or certainly not making a ton of money.

And so Disney already went through this with Florida and DeSantis when they were going to take away the tax exemption around the theme parks.

And so they are very worried.

And they're making these business decisions, the same ones the Washington Post is making, it's the same ones Paramount is making all across the board.

And it says something about the leaders of these companies.

It also said, because if they're not going to stand up for the First Amendment, if the people who own media companies aren't,

fair question, who is going to stand up for it?

And it says something just about the ultimate failure of the corporate media model in this moment.

Iger knows the stakes here.

And that's why it's like

I think this was also the blowback he's going to get in this town is going to be intense, intense, because people, I mean, it's just been a day and, you know, my phone's been blowing up.

I'm sure everyone, like, people are fucking outraged.

Outraged.

There's people protesting outside of Disney today.

And Kimmel is different than Colbert in that Kimmel, he's like the mascot for Disney.

He does, he hosts the upfronts every year for them.

Like he's.

The mayor of Hollywood.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's a Hollywood guy.

I mean, Stephen's on the East Coast and as a fellow East Coast star, I know you guys don't pay that much attention to what happens to us.

But now.

Of course we do.

The whole world has to.

It's happening in New York.

It's happening everywhere.

Oh, another hurricane.

Can we have the East Coast?

I sense a little ego bruising.

Look, I'm an East Coast native, so I can say that now.

But yeah, I mean, I think, and Kimmel has an extraordinary amount of goodwill, right?

I mean, and this is so transparent.

Unlike, first of all, I think it informs what happened at CBS with Colbert because there was a lot of kind of, well, maybe it wasn't about this and it was just about revenue.

And I never bought any of that.

Just for the record, this makes it quite clear that the corporate overlords bowed.

So in his post on Monday night, Trump also called on NBC to finish the job by firing Seth Meyers and Jimmy Fallon.

You heard him in that clip musing about pulling broadcast licenses when he was talking on Air Force One.

Carr, FCC chairman, has done the same thing.

He's been doing the same thing.

None of these people are like at all cowed by this or trying to be subtle anymore.

Where do you guys think this goes next?

Well,

Brendan Carr was on, I can't believe I'm about to say this, but was on Scott Jennings' radio show today.

And the thing they got into, which is, I think, is the next step here, is

under the equal opportunity provision where basically you have to give both sides opportunity on broadcast television, there is a carve-out for what are called bona fide news programs.

So basically the idea is if every news showed to give every candidate equal time, you couldn't really run the news.

So news programs don't have to do, but if CBS interview or 60 Minutes interviews Kamala Harris, they don't have to by law interview Donald Trump too, especially if Donald Trump's going to quit in the middle of the interview.

But they've also carved out late night comedy shows,

daytime talk shows, basically anyone that is in the news entertainment space has been carved out.

This was specifically mentioned as a way in which the FCC could go after the view.

And so I think this is the next place they're going to, they want to put us, they understand.

Yeah, they're going, they've been mentioning, yeah, so Carr talked about the view.

Yeah.

They understand.

Carr understands, Trump understands, that these media entities are at their weakest point since the invention of the printing press, right?

The economics of the old media model are falling out the bottom rapidly.

And so they can put tremendous pressure on them and they will give in part because the only way that a lot of these companies can save themselves is through mergers.

They are trying to get bought, right?

It's why Warner Brothers Discovery is spinning out their cable entities like CNN.

It's why NBC, Comcast did the same thing with MSNBC, because they want to get bought.

And And if you're going to get bought, you need either FCC or if you're a cable network, FTC approval.

And so Trump has all the leverage here.

I just got back from Hungary a couple months ago.

And I remember thinking, is this premature really looking to Hungary as a roadmap for what's going to happen to America?

And it turns out no, because what Orban did, which is exactly what's happening here, although perhaps even less artfully, is he effectively either shut down major news outlets, newspapers, or he got his oligarch oligarch friends to buy them and then they became mouthpieces for the state.

And what you are seeing right now is a consolidation.

You're seeing, you know,

whether the marketplace does it or whether it's the FCC,

you are seeing companies that are either not going to survive or they're going to get bought out by people who are allies of Trump or explicitly have told the White House they will be allies of Trump.

And as a result, you know, in Hungary, I believe it's like 80% of the free press is effectively state media.

And so what's left are a hodgepodge of really essential

actual news groups.

Some of them are digital, some of them are podcasting.

It's basically left to sort of the grassroots to be the place for information and analysis and, you know,

real facts.

And that's terrifying.

But I don't, I mean, I think that that's our future.

I don't say this to be self-serving.

I wish.

We didn't have to say it, but like, yeah, we don't.

He's not coming after podcasts.

You don't have a deal with the NFL?

No, we don't have a deal with the NFL.

I mean,

they'll find ways to come after anyone, I'm sure, but like, there's no FCC relationship.

Yes, but don't open the door.

Don't pay attention to what's happening here.

But it is a good time to support independent media.

Absolutely.

And

to come subscribe to Crooked and come hang with us because we have lots.

I will say that it also, they don't have to carry through on all the threats to the point about the view.

The view today did not mention Kimmel.

Wow.

Did not mention it.

Yeah, right.

Part of it is just the chilling effect.

And now,

it could be because of a chilling effect.

I'm also wondering, though, because I saw Dylan Byers at Puck reported last night briefly that Disney leadership said that they are trying to work something out to get Jimmy back on the air eventually.

Do you think that there's a chance that

work something out?

They just have to say put him back on the air.

Right.

And that's like, what is the,

like, are we settling with Brendan Carr over this?

Like, what the fuck are we doing?

You're in charge.

It's your company.

It's a free country.

Well, but will Jimmy want to go back?

I mean, that's the question.

Like if you can't say what he said, you're a comedian.

The whole point is you can speak without using four-letter words.

You're speaking uncensored to make, you know, light of, parody, or otherwise stick it to people in power.

And if he can't do that, and if he feels like he's under a microscope, I don't know how you do the same show.

No, in fact, if he came back, he would have to, in the most factual way possible, kick the shit out of Donald Trump.

Yeah.

And show people that he's not afraid.

That's like the only way you can come back at this point.

Thoughts on the best way for Democrats, maybe in Congress, elected Democrats, and really all free speech lovers to respond to this?

I know that Democrats are going to subpoena a car

and

then launch an investigation.

I think Eric Swalwell said, you know, we're going to get the House back in a year.

And so I would tell everyone at the FCC and Brendan Carr to keep all your documents and get ready to...

So

I like his optimism.

I like Eric Swalwell's optimism.

But what do you think?

Is that all we can do?

We have limited actual power here, right?

The Senate Dem sent a letter demanding all documents, but it is not even worth the paper it's printed on.

We've seen the Trump administration simply ignore subpoenas before.

It's not going to ignore that.

The idea that we're going to pass legislation in a world we don't have the House or the Senate is also impossible.

What we have to do is speak out.

And

we're going to talk about this later in the pod too, but right here, you have big government colluding with big business to try to stifle dissent in this country, right?

To take away the freedom of speech of people.

And you should call that out.

That is the exact kind of corruption that drives people insane.

And we should be willing to say that.

We should say it clearly.

We should say it compellingly.

And we should do that.

And then ultimately, I think, you know, you mentioned supporting

independent media.

We also shouldn't be looking to our elected leaders to do this, right?

Like this is, we all have the capacity.

We have our attention is our most valuable asset in this media environment.

And we should use that and direct it to places that are actually going to hold Trump accountable.

And if entities are not going to do that, then they shouldn't get our support.

They shouldn't get our dollars and they shouldn't get our eyeballs.

I've learned something from the Jeffrey Epstein saga, which isn't over, I'll say that.

I think what really resonates with this White House is when you can pull at least a couple of people over from the manosphere or wherever who still see the import of all this, whether it's Joe Rogan or Megan Kelly.

But I think it's not about bipartisanship, but it's about exacting some kind of cost among people that this administration cares about.

And I do think somewhere out there are people who are on the hard right, who are in the conservative movement, who are free speech defenders, who understand, who see this for what it is.

And also, by the way, like, maybe there's a Democrat in power one day.

You don't want that Democratic president pulling what Trump is pulling.

I mean, you just have to paint a scenario that is compelling enough to get, I mean, the hope is a few people that matter aligned on this, and maybe that makes a difference next time they try and do something like this.

But I do think, you know, the reason the Epstein thing was so potent was because Trump felt like it was costing him.

And until it feels like it costs them with people who matter, they'll just keep doing it with impunity.

Speaking of Epstein, did you guys, there is one fire tweet from a Democrat in power that came across my screen just before we started recording.

Mr.

Chuck Schumer.

All caps.

Are you ready for it?

Is Epstein the real reason Trump had Kimmel canceled?

Exclamation question mark.

Hidden him where it hurts.

I'm glad that Alex hadn't seen it so I get your first reaction.

I had to read the tweet three times and look at the account to make sure it wasn't a parody.

So that's what we're working with.

I think

your point is well taken.

Bringing it back home, Chuck.

I saw, you know, Mike Berbiglia, comedian who is friend of the show.

Been on the show, yes.

Been on the show many times.

One of the funnier comedians I've ever known.

You know, he posted last night.

He was like, I have stood up for a lot of other comedians in public and in private who people were saying should be canceled or told a joke that people found offensive.

He's like, and now I want to see all those comedians and everyone else standing up for free speech.

And sure enough, today, I've seen a lot of comedians like Andrew Schultz, the Flagrant Podcast, like Tim Dylan, a lot of these guys came out and were like, all right, we're going to complain about this.

I also think, I don't know, the entertainment industry, right?

Like, they have some power here.

The people, the actors, artists, the staff, I mean, because also it's not just like Jimmy Kimmel potentially losing his job here.

Like Jimmy Kimmel will probably be fine, but there's a lot of people on that show.

A lot of staff on that show, people work on that show, and you do that plus the Colbert show, you do that plus any other kind of show that they're targeting.

Like, I think that, you know, I'm interested to see what happens in Hollywood and Los Angeles and this town where the entertainment industry is

such a critical part of the economy.

Like I could see, I've already heard rumblings of this.

Artists, actors, celebrities like saying, you know, we're going to, I mean, Damon Lindelof already posted and he's a, he's a writer, director in Hollywood.

You may remember from Lost.

From Lost, exactly.

Said that he will not be working with ABC or Disney until they bring back Jimmy or do something.

And I would love to see other entertainers do the same thing.

It has to be talent driven because it's not going to come from, it's not going to come from the production companies.

It's not going to come from the networks themselves.

It has to be from the people they rely on to make great content.

100%.

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Are you ready to get spicy?

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Incredibly, Kimmel was not Trump's only attempt to silence the media this week.

He's also also suing the New York Times for a cool $15 billion

because I guess they didn't adequately praise his business acumen.

And the editorial board endorsed Kamala Harris.

Those were just two of the many complaints.

I don't know if you've read the whole lawsuit.

I did not.

I skimmed it.

No, I read the highlights.

You read the highlights?

Seems like he knows this is frivolous, but he's just enjoying it.

What do you guys think?

What's the purpose of this?

I mean, the best part of it is that one of the central arguments is that in a book written by New York Times employees, they say that Mark Burnett discovered Trump.

And Trump's argument, which is then laid out with a lot of facts and footnotes, is that he was actually a celebrity before Mark Burnett discovered him.

So because he was a celebrity, he could not be discovered.

Ergo, you owe me $15 million.

Billion.

Oh, billion.

Excuse me.

Excuse me.

I was trying to settle earlier.

Billion with a B.

Yes.

It seems like that's not going here.

Although they did file it in Tampa.

I mean, hoping for.

They're hoping to Eileen.

Yeah, exactly.

Is that what they're hoping?

Come on, Eileen.

I just, the peevishness, the like, the juvenile, it's just the ego stroking is so.

I'm waiting for him to appear in the street in an invisible cloak that everybody has to praise.

You know, like

it's so pathetic.

And it's such a waste of time, but I guess it makes him happy to throw these numbers around.

He's not going to win.

I do worry about the fact that, you know, this is also onerous.

And it's

all these newspapers, when they publish these accounts or books as Suzanne Craig did, lucky loser, go buy it.

They fact check the shit out of it.

They have a lot of legal.

They have the receipts.

They're ready.

This is just going to make more work on that back end.

And it makes it harder to do deep investigative reporting.

And that, I think, is the most meaningful effect of all of this because you know you're going to get sued.

And then you have to, you know, just make sure everything is watertight because

the era of Trump.

Sued the Wall Street Journal over the Epstein birthday birthday letter book.

Then they produced the book, produced the letter with his signature, and they're like, no, still fake.

Not his signature.

I mean, he did sue the Des Moines Register because of a poll that had him winning Iowa insufficiently.

Just fucking real.

Well, we talked about maybe the digital platforms will save us.

President's also moving to exert more control over those.

When Trump and Scott Besson said earlier in the week that they'd reach a deal to transfer ownership of TikTok TikTok to an American company, we had a hunch that the lucky winners would be Trump friends.

And sure enough, looks like a consortium of investors led by Trump allies, donors Larry Ellison and Mark Andreessen will be getting an 80% stake.

Trump was asked on Thursday morning who would control the algorithm, and he didn't answer.

I'm guessing because the answer is still China.

Or he doesn't know what an algorithm is, which I think is highly likely.

That is a very good point.

Very good point.

Or he doesn't actually know what the deal is.

I mean, he just doesn't know any of it.

He's not in the weeds on this kind of stuff.

Thoughts about the TikTok of it all?

So I think this is a gigantic deal.

Based on the reporting that we've seen, we actually don't.

They may not know who's going to control the algorithm.

But if China controls the algorithm, then it entirely defeats the purpose of the original legislation, which was that they were very concerned about China, a company with ties to the Chinese government, putting their thumb on the scale about what content Americans get.

Well, remember, there's two concerns.

There's one that's a

data privacy concern.

And you can solve that problem without the algorithm.

The algorithm is a bigger problem.

Yes.

It's a much more mass problem for everyone to deal with.

And so if you, so let's assume that they're either going to license it to the U.S.

and the U.S.

consortium is going to have some control over it.

There is almost nothing more powerful that someone could have in media in the world today than control of the TikTok algorithm, right?

It is a world.

It is a leading source.

It is a rapidly growing source of news for all Americans, particularly younger Americans.

It is incredibly addictive.

It is incredibly powerful.

It doesn't just set news, but it sets culture in this country in a very powerful way.

And if you want to know how dangerous it is to get an algorithm in the wrong person's hands, look at what Elon Musk did to Twitter when he got control of the algorithm.

So we're living in a world, and I'm sure they'll say this would never happen, but where a bunch of pro-Trump billionaires, including Mark Andreessen, who is very avowedly pro-MAGA,

can put their thumb on the scale to make TikTok be as pro-MAGA as Elon has made Twitter.

And that is a very, very dangerous thing because that is the, you know, you now have pro-Trump billionaires controlling, if this deal goes through, TikTok, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp.

Yeah.

We're, baby, we're going to be, we are depending on LinkedIn.

We have LinkedIn and Pinterest are going to save us.

But

like, those are going to save us.

That is the, um, that is the distribution pipes of news and information in this country.

The vast majority of them.

No, you forgot Blue Sky.

I forgot Blue Sky.

I mean, the one outstanding one.

I didn't get myself in trouble.

You do.

I was just going to say, I mean,

obviously, the biggest platform, most powerful one, is YouTube, which is owned by Google, not controlled by a Protron billionaire.

Also, if you've been on YouTube recently, not exactly a fountain of progressive pro-democracy thought.

Subscribe to us on YouTube.

That's exactly right.

There you go.

We did that because Elijah's in the office today.

But I think it's a huge, huge deal.

And I think it's also happening.

I mean,

these are profound seismic changes in terms of the way we get information.

And

I do think it's happening largely because it's a business concern.

And, you know,

Kimmel getting canceled is very clear to the American public.

Okay, that looks like censorship.

That looks like a curbing of free speech.

That looks like a First Amendment concern.

This feels like, okay, it can happen and it could be ultimately much more influential.

The impact of it could be much more

impactful.

And there is not the same level of awareness or outcry about what's going on here.

And that seems insanely dangerous.

Especially because the impact is one that a lot of people just won't recognize.

Right, exactly.

This has been our problem with social media the whole time, right?

It's like, I'm just looking at my TikTok.

It's great.

Right, exactly.

Like no one's like, oh, I'm being brainwashed.

Okay, so the government's crackdown on free expression is unfortunately reaching well beyond media outlets.

The White House is planning to launch investigations and take other actions against a broad network of left-leaning nonprofits and other organizations.

Details are still unclear.

They said it could take a while, but Trump and other officials have talked about racketeering charges using the RICO law and taking away tax-exempt status from nonprofits, which would effectively bankrupt many of those organizations.

They've mentioned George Soros' Open Society Foundation and the Ford Foundation, among others.

And they are trying to argue that it's not about censoring speech, but punishing groups that fund or incite violence, especially, especially, quote, foreign malign actors.

On Wednesday night, Trump announced that he's designating Antifa as a major terrorist organization, a move he tried to take during the George Floyd protests in 2020,

somewhat complicated by the fact that Antifa isn't actually an organization and there isn't actually a law that allows the president to designate domestic groups as terrorists.

Other than that, good to go.

Here's what he had to say to Fox's Martha McCallum about all this during a UK sit-down early on Thursday.

Do you believe that there is a vast terrorist movement in the United States that people need to be aware of?

And is it responsible for Charlie Kirk's killing, for the attempts on your life, for these CEOs that we saw in New York City?

Is there something people need to understand?

You never know, and we'll find out maybe.

But in the meantime, we're going to

do a big thing with respect to Antifa.

It's a sick group.

I mean, very, very sick group.

We have a lot of things.

They love burning the American flag.

I think it's terrible that they burn the American flag.

Who's behind it?

Do you have a gut?

Well,

you hear Soros.

I don't know.

We're going to find out if he's behind it.

Do you have concerns about, you know, some people look at this and your critics will say, well,

this crackdown is a crackdown on free speech?

It's interesting.

I watch your show and I watch others and I see people saying things.

They're crazy.

These people are crazed lunatics.

Even the way they'll answer, you know, it's like you'll see them and the things they say are really bad, but they they look crazy

Didn't really answer the question about is it a crackdown on free speech also Antifa HQ must be the switchboards must be lighting up over there well because we were watching this interview in our office and always have Fox on anyway because we love the five the way that they're debating it's on five is the Democrats are saying that Antifa doesn't exist Do you think Antifa exists Harold Ford?

Who said yes, he thought it existed.

Of course.

Yes.

Where is their address?

Where are they headquartered?

The point, of course, is there's not an organization with

a website and an address called Antifa.

There's an Antifa secretary.

It's just someone that answers the phone.

They have not done that.

They filed papers, right?

There's just a bunch of...

It's an ideology.

Yeah, and people run around and they say they're Antifa or they're black block or whatever the fuck.

Surprise, surprise.

The organization that's against centralized power doesn't have a centralized fucking operation.

So that's happening.

What do you make of these threats?

The sort of like what they're trying to do here, because it does, it's a little murky to me still.

How much of it is we're going to try to scare everyone?

How much of it is they can actually do some of this stuff?

What do you think?

Listen, I get that, right?

Because it's like the levers aren't immediately obvious.

Revoke tax, exempt status, harass, threat, whatever.

But given the landscape that we're in, like, did you ever think that Brendan Carr would be like, we can do this the hard way?

We can do this the easy way?

You're out, Jimmy.

Like, all bets are off.

I don't know.

I think they can make it difficult.

I think, you know, everything is fungible in Trump's universe.

Like, what does it mean to be a bad actor?

What does it mean to, I mean, their definition of what is threatening or malign behavior or somehow terrorizing the American public could be completely divorced from reality, but.

I don't know.

I mean, he's the president of the United States, has the full force of the federal government behind him, has the business community largely largely bending the knee.

I mean, I do worry about what that means.

And then you see self-designated, you know, truth seekers and like patriot keepers like Enrique Tario coming out and saying, I'll find him on the internet.

We'll figure out who the bad actors are.

And Stuart Rhodes is like, well, let's reconstitute the oath keepers and protect this country.

And, you know, this,

the Kirk assassination has been a catalytic moment.

And I don't think we know what comes next.

And I think that already the sort of iterations of like

punishment are beyond what I imagined a week after he was killed.

Yeah.

Dan?

I think these are very unserious people that we should take deadly seriously.

Like it's not, it's actually, yes, the Antifa thing is fake.

It almost feels like they gave Trump a ball of yarn to play with here because it's an entirely fake thing.

But using the IRS to go after the tax exempt status of nonprofits is a very easy thing to do.

Right.

But it's not easy to.

take it away.

No, but if you start the process.

Start the process, then they go, this is like, you know, Harvard's in court right now.

And even though Harvard clearly has the upper hand in this case,

we've all seen the reports about people inside Harvard being like, we know we can win, but this is this is bad and this is draining us of resources and all that kind of shit.

Right.

You can, I mean, remember earlier this year, the FTC sued Media Matters, right?

Like you can go after these organizations, many of which, like, obviously some of them have a ton of money, like Harvard, and they would have the capacity to fight back.

Many don't.

You can go after individuals, right?

You don't have like there is a governmental equivalent of what Trump is doing with these lawsuits, which is I am suing.

I'm going to make you spend money on attorneys and document collection and all of the above.

And I'm going to drain your resources.

I'm going to make it really hard.

And what it does is it is, so yes, there's some individual people, some individual organizations will absolutely be affected and that will be very bad.

But the bigger effect is it scares the shit of everyone else.

And if anyone, if you talk to anyone who's been out trying to raise money for progressive pro-democracy causes right now, for many of the people who have funded the anti-Trump resistance for the last decade, many of them do not want to stick their head up right now because the last thing they want is to end up in Trump's crosshairs.

Legally, from a regulatory perspective, from a public perspective.

And so, and it is draining.

Democrats are struggling to raise money for in part because people are afraid of Trump.

The domestic terrorist thing that they just keep bringing up, Trump, Vance, Stephen Miller,

they have started to say, use that phrase, foreign malign actors, too, because There is no way that a president can try to designate a domestic group as a domestic terrorist organization.

You can't prosecute someone for any law that they're a domestic terrorist organization, right?

You can use like terrorism enhancement on a sentence if you're already prosecuting something, but like it doesn't really exist what he's trying to do, which is why when he did it in 2020 with Antifa.

It's not just because it's not an organization because it wasn't really a thing.

But you can designate.

of course, foreign organizations as terrorist groups.

And I think the foreign malign actors thing is they now are going to try to look for potentially domestic organizations that have some connection to foreign funding.

Like it seems like that's the nexus.

Or have like a foreign person working for them.

I just feel like they're going to stretch the bounds of like whatever the definition is.

For sure.

Pam Bondi, who seems like she's just playing Attorney General on TV,

went into the lion's den this week and sat through

the usual confrontational grilling from former White House senior advisor, turned podcaster Katie Miller.

Here she is showing off her knowledge of the First Amendment.

There's free speech and then there's hate speech.

And there is no place, especially now, especially after what happened to Charlie in our society.

We will absolutely target you, go after you if you are targeting anyone with hate speech, anything.

And that's across the aisle.

Well, that's reassuring.

Now, to their credit, conservatives like your Britt Humes, even Brendan Carr himself slapped this idea down.

But I think the most satisfying right-wing rebuttal came from none other than Tucker Carlson.

Let's listen.

This is the Attorney General of the United States, the chief law enforcement officer of the United States, telling you that there is this other category called hate speech.

And of course, the implication is that's a crime.

There's no sentence that Charlie Kirk would have objected to more than that.

You hope that a year from now, the turmoil we're seeing in the aftermath of his murder won't be leveraged to bring hate speech laws to this country.

And trust me, if it is, if that does happen, there is never a more justified moment for civil disobedience than that, ever.

And there never will be.

Bondi dust up, now the Kimmel move.

They don't seem to be sitting well with some mega media types and right-leaning free speech enthusiasts, I'll call them.

How much do you guys think that matters?

I think it matters a lot.

I mean, this is what I'm saying.

I think you have Tucker out there who very much matters to this White House calling them out.

I think that was recorded

before the Kimmel fight.

Before Kimmel, I think so.

I think so, yes.

Yeah.

Because I think that was a reaction to the Bondi thing.

Yes.

And so I'm eager to know what Tucker, the Wizard of Oz, has to say about this one.

The Lord will save us.

I mean, my Lord, if that's where we're at, stop this train.

I want to get off.

But I mean, the end of that clip, actually,

in the way that only Tucker can,

is him intoning, you're taking away man's humanity if you take away his right to speech.

But respect, right?

Like this is not insignificant.

I am shocked, I will say, at the level of vitriol directed at Pam Bondi.

And you heard some of that from Megan Kelly.

It's clear that Pam Bondi is not beloved in certain conservative circles.

I am hoping, though, that that is not the catalyst for these folks speaking out and that it legitimately is a sort of revulsion at the idea that the conservative movement headed by Trump is now curbing free speech and that this can like obviously this is Trump's new, you know, his new raison d'être is going after the libs on speech.

And it should engender some passions on the right because it's the thing they've been talking about and outraged about for the last five years.

It seems to me like in this administration, you don't criticize dear leader if you have a problem with something that dear leader has said.

You can criticize one of your colleagues.

Yes.

And that, so it's happened to Pam Bondi.

It's happened to Cash Batel.

It's happened to Alex Azar.

Yeah.

It's happened to RFK Jr., right?

And so everyone's like, oh, they try to keep Trump just like an arm's length from all these decisions.

Like,

I can't tell who's at fault here.

Who's going on?

But it's like,

they're able to criticize, the people in the larger movement are able to criticize various cabinet officials that are there as lackeys, but they just can't actually criticize Donald Trump.

Yeah, it's performative independence.

Yeah.

Oh, he's so succinct.

Why couldn't we just shut up and let Dan summer performative

performative independence?

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Democrats are trying their best to respond to all this.

We're back to the Democrats again.

Members of Congress, governors, even Barack Obama talked about, he was tweeting out this morning.

Schumer put out a statement statement calling

Chuck, Epstein files.

I guess Democrats are introducing the NOPE Act,

which is short for Canadian.

No

something.

No Political Enemies Act.

Oh, so it's

tricky because the O is sort of doing, the O is doing double duty there.

Can either be an acronym or not?

It can't be both.

Nope.

So I don't know.

I'm assuming the legislation will sail through Congress because obviously Republicans are also concerned with the weaponization of government and a crackdown on free speech.

They'll join with the Democrats on this legislation and pass it and then it'll get to the president's desk and he also set up a whole committee on the weaponization of government.

So I'm sure he'll sign it.

Nope.

This would be called performative

performance.

Performative resistance.

Yeah, performative.

I mean, I don't want to give the Democrats too much shit.

They are like, look, every Democrat we want to be outraged is out there being outraged.

I don't know what I'd be telling them to do otherwise.

I do think

we're not going to talk about this, but heading for the government shutdown, I wouldn't be funding this government that's cracking down on free speech.

And I think that's the thing.

It's like, that's actually where you have some power, so maybe it's time to use it.

Which is a, it's a longer, more interesting debate about how you wrap in this sort of stuff into the argument around a shutdown.

Because you know, they're going to be saying like, oh, the Democrats want to shut down the government over Jimmy Kimmel and foreign aid.

Right.

And

from what we can tell as of right now, and what I'm sure is a very clear and long-articulated plan, the Democrats seem to be focusing on the subsidies for Obamacare as the primary reason for the shutdown.

Because I saw Schumer, a clip of Schumer, today doing an interview with Punch Bowl, where he said the two things, it seemed like what he was implying is one, their process was entirely partisan.

which has been known to get people in the street before.

And then, but the other one is making healthcare more expensive, which is actually a very, very compelling argument.

It feels, this is one I've struggled with a lot in how we, in how I think about the shutdown, is that is certainly a very real thing that matters to a lot of people and does poll really well.

It feels a little removed from what's actually happening.

You think?

But

not to the people whose healthcare is going up.

So, no, no, it's, it's, again, it is the

if we were just dealing in substance and rational world, it is the absolutely right thing to fight for.

Um, forget about the polls, just substantively.

Like, if you can stop healthcare premiums from going up by like 75% on a lot of people, which is going to happen, then yeah, you go do that.

But that's none of the things they're proposing are going to happen.

I saw one Hus Democrat, of course, on background, so only get a only get half credit on this profile of courage and honesty, but said,

Look, we should shut this government down and we may not win this, and we might have a plan to get out of this, and they might not cave at all, but we should just do it anyway.

And I'm like,

well, credit, credit to just just do something.

I mean, that's why

the alternative seems

how could you abide that, especially in this climate?

Like, how could you abide that?

I mean, I don't actually know if they could not shut down the government.

It gets complicated in the sense that the matter before them is a

45-day clean extension.

It's like we must shut.

This is why these things are always hard, which is you got to draw the line somewhere.

Otherwise, they can just 45-day it until you know the end of time and so this goes to november 21st so do you say we haven't really figured it out so we're gonna we'll vote for this and then fight on november 21st but would why would anyone believe you that you voted that you'll fight on november 21st if you won't fight on september 30th yeah also get it away from the midterms as much as possible maybe i don't know i was trying to think too about the the partisanship thing so the republicans have not reached out at all to the democrats to even try to fund the government on anything and i think if you want to make that argument just be like, look, they didn't ask us for our help, so they're not getting our votes.

You run it.

And you run this government, and it is lawless, and you are violating the Constitution, and you are cracking down on people's speech, and you are raising their prices and their costs, and we do not want anything to do with this.

And if you actually want partners in government, then like we can come to the table, but that's not what you want.

So you are not getting our votes.

Then you better give us a temporary means test extension of the Affordable Care Act subsidies.

That's why you don't do it over.

That's what I'm saying.

You don't ask for it now.

You're just like, no, fuck you.

No, you don't get any votes.

But you got to reiterate.

You do need, like, having been on the other side of a couple of these, you do need an ask,

right?

You need a specific thing because eventually what you want to get.

Kimmel back on the air.

We are not voting for this, so Kimmel's on the air.

Uncensored.

And the view is safe.

I need a statement from Brendan Card that the view is offered.

Joy Behar.

I want to make sure she's okay.

Whoopie?

Okay.

Bling twice.

I think we got that handled.

Let me chair you guys up with some updates on how the government is making America healthy again.

Great.

Former CDC Director Susan Menares testified before the Senate Health Committee on Wednesday about why she was abruptly fired just weeks into the job.

She told the committee that RFK Jr.

pushed her out for refusing to, quote, pre-approve his preferred vaccine guidance and for protecting career CDC scientists from being purged.

Let's listen.

He directed me to commit in advance to approving every ACIP recommendation,

regardless of the scientific evidence.

He also directed me to dismiss career officials responsible for vaccine policy without cause.

Did he cite any data or science as relates to the potential ACIP recommendations to persuade you to support them?

He did not have any data or science to point to.

Did he ever suggest that the president was that he was speaking for the president?

In that morning meeting, he did say that he had spoken to the president.

He spoke to the president every day about changing the childhood vaccine schedule.

I could have kept the office, the title, but I would have lost the one thing that cannot be replaced, my integrity.

So the ACIP panel is meeting as we record this today and tomorrow, but there was just some breaking news as we've been talking.

The panel approved limiting the availability of a combined shot for measles, mumps, rubella, and varicella, which is the virus that causes chickenpox.

The 12-member panel also appeared poised to do away with the recommendation that all newborns receive the hepatitis B vaccine, but delayed a vote until Friday.

That was from Axios.

What's the limit on the

MMR?

The panel voted eight to three with one abstention to recommend against giving the MMR vaccine to children before the age of four.

Wow.

Because now you get one right away and then just a booster at four.

Yeah.

It makes sense to do this at a time when measles is spreading rapidly across the country for the first time in decades.

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, no one has a stronger immune system than children age zero to four.

So especially as we head into the winter.

Can I just say the polling on this is like, I don't get this at all.

It's like, I think 70.

73% of Trump voters think vaccines save lives.

And then you break down vaccines by MMR, shingles, hepatitis B, and it's like 70% of Trump voters until you get to COVID.

Think they are important.

Right.

COVID opened the door, but I mean, this is not a political winner for them at all.

And, oh, by the way, it's going to kill children

and adults.

I mean,

it is, as someone who has young children, who just, I mean, you, all of us, right?

Like,

I remember getting them after the, first of all, they hate taking the shots.

I mean,

I fucking hate the shots.

But I always felt like, thank God.

Me too.

Good.

We're good.

We're good for a little, you know?

The terrifying thing in all of this, and this is something we can't, I think, wrap our heads around living in largely places where vaccinations are still, you know, the order of the day and where we have governors who are working in concert with other, you know, parts of the region to make sure that people have access to vaccines, is the way in which this anti-vax culture is now on the upswing.

Like in Texas, there's an article in the New York Times talking about families that finally feel like they're being heard.

The communities around them are growing.

There are churches that support the anti-vax lifestyle.

There are networks of people.

I mean, it is metastasizing.

That is dangerous shit.

This is not just sort of the fringe having its moment.

This is how you poison entire communities and then societies.

The idea that we are eroding not just Americans' belief in the efficacy and the safety of the COVID-19 vaccine, but shingles, chickenpox, measles, mumps, rubella, I mean, hepatitis B,

that will reshape public health in a really meaningful way in a not long period of time.

Terrifying.

These are long-settled questions.

There is no, I mean, these people are introducing doubt where doubt did not exist.

And there were liaisons

that they had at the panel to try to argue otherwise.

Amy Middleman is the liaison for the Society of Adolescent Health and Medicine.

And she said to the panel, what problem exists in the current schedule that has prompted this entire discussion?

We all know, I think, there are always some risks and benefits, and we vet those risks and benefits and compare them.

We have an immunization schedule for hepatitis B that's been incredibly successful.

I'm trying to figure out what the question was that really prompted this.

Obviously, we all know.

It's from fucking Kook RFK Jr.

The crank.

What's the point of a confirmation process?

What's the point of like asking people questions?

I mean, he said literally he would not change the vaccine schedules.

I mean,

from Supreme Court justices to cabinet officials, they just go and lie.

I mean, some good news is that we've said this once before: California and a coalition of West Coast states announced that they would issue their own vaccine recommendations, as did New York and a coalition of states in the Northeast.

Even health insurers have stepped in.

AHIP, which is the major health insurance trade group, announced that their member plans, which include Aetna, Humana, Kaiser Permanente, and a dozen blue plans, would continue to cover flu and COVID-19 vaccines through the end of 2026.

Even if the CDC changes their recommendations, we should also note that the CDC has to, the CDC, the organization, has to vote on the recommendations from the CDC panel, the kooks in the panel.

But, you know, it's not like there's anyone running the CDC right now either.

Can I say one thing?

And this was comforting, I guess, because I live in one of those states that has one of these, but there's a network of doctors and clinicians and sort of people in science who have been corresponding and communicating for decades now and are now sort of the Cracker Jack Avengers team that are responsible for helping these states figure out what their policies are.

So there does exist a network.

The problem is that it's isolated to, I don't know, blue states in large part or coastal states.

And what you can't have in the name of public health is a patchwork of solutions because we're all in it together, Newsflash.

This is one where like people need to organize groups of parents and kids and doctors and like go to Washington and sit in Congress and sit outside the White House.

And like this is if there was ever a time for peaceful protest, you know, like Donald Trump can target Jimmy Kimmel and he can try to target NGOs here and there.

How about kids who want vaccines?

Parents who want their kid to have vaccines?

Want to be safe in school.

Right.

You'll be hearing from some of them on my forthcoming podcast, I'm sure.

Stories from the ground.

Love that.

Love plug.

I do think that, like, I don't know.

I'm not trying to be optimistic here, believe me.

But, like.

You can be.

It's a safe space.

I would say this is a lot to sustain for the Trump administration.

Yeah.

Like, between the Kimmel stuff and the larger crackdown on free speech and now the vaccines and health insurance premiums are going to go up for people.

And we're looking down at a government shutdown.

And we didn't even talk about Lisa Cook, who gets to keep her seat for now, but then Trump just asked the Supreme Court to try to kick her off.

We got a one rate cut, but he wants more.

We don't know what's happening with the economy, right?

So like the vax stuff and the money stuff really hits home.

And I think the Kimmel stuff does too, for a couple reasons.

I think that Trump is now like at risk of being optimistic.

How dare we do that in this period?

We got to have something.

But Trump is at, this is classic overreach in a lot of ways, right?

Trump was elected for two reasons, right?

And he was elected by people who don't really like Trump.

They just thought he would probably do a better job of lowering their costs and securing the border and

put the border aside.

But on immigration, he's gone further than most people want.

And he has not lowered their costs.

He's raised them.

And instead, he's spending his time on a lot of things that are not solving that particular economic problem.

And some of those things like we obsess about, we think about all the time, we talk about, but they don't break through to real people.

The vaccine stuff breaks through to real people.

It absolutely does.

It is something that blows up parent group chats for school and WhatsApp groups.

It is, it's happening as people are going back to school and filling out the vaccine certification so their kids can go to school.

It is happening as everyone is now making decisions about flu vaccines.

And this is the period of time for our fourth year where we would be getting our COVID vaccine.

And the Kimmel Charlie Kirk stuff, I think really does break through.

The Charlie Kirk assassination has broken through like almost nothing else this year, even more than the F-Scene files.

Like I track this on the What's resonating um sub stack where they go through all the social traffic and internet traffic and stuff the kirk stuff blows everything out of the water and kimmel is attached to that and that gets through to people i just can't tell you how many non-political people in my life have asked me about the charlie kirk stuff and so like on two big things that break through to real people he is focused on things that are not what they elected him to do and that is where when you get in trouble as a president particularly as you head into a midterm so there's some optimism and i would say that's true for any president white houses tend to be insular, and you're in a foxhole.

And so it's hard to get a good handle on public opinion beyond just the polls.

I think in authoritarian regimes, that is a

particular problem because they have completely shut out the rest of public opinion.

And all Trump is, Trump is just surrounded by people telling him, you are doing the best job.

You're the greatest person that we've ever had in this job.

And we're so excited and blah, blah, blah.

And then he turns on the TV and all the people on Fox are singing his praises and everyone's wonderful.

So like to the extent that there's going to be a backlash against him in the country, he's not going to really detect it.

And the people around him on the, this is the fundamental shift in the Trump era from when we were in Washington is when we were in Washington, everyone watched all the Republicans watched Fox, but they also watched everything else.

And they kind of winked and nodded at Fox that it was sort of a ridiculous thing.

They were kind of in on the joke, but they also watched all the regular news.

They watched CNN.

They read the newspapers.

Now everyone in the MAGA movement has self-selected into

a right-wing media bubble.

And so they are not exposed to dissenting opinions in any way.

And I really think they turn on that TV when Fox is on and they think it's a window into the world when it's really just a mirror.

And so they like they don't, that's, that's why the policies are addressing, like there is this circular logic where Fox runs something, the, they see the White House sees it as a problem, they try to solve it.

It's how you end up with the National Guard in DC,

right?

Like, it's, that's why, even though crime is down all in lots of places around the country, that they've made their central focus be urban crime, because that urban crime has been one of Fox's favorite stories for very obvious racially coded reasons for decades now.

And so they're solving problems that Fox News producers or other right-wing media people think gets engagement from other MAGA media consumers.

Can I say one thing on the vaccines, though?

I'm glad that you played that moment between Menaras and Cassidy

because she says that RFK is talking daily with Trump about changing the vaccine schedule.

You know, it is really hard.

First of all, I think Ivanka and Don Jr.

and Eric probably all got their MMR vaccines.

You know, like this does not seem like the hill that Trump wants to die on.

Trump got his COVID vaccine.

Yeah.

But I mean, I just think

the concern about, you know,

this is all, these are confections created by Robert F.

Kennedy Jr.

And so I do wonder whether there's more hope that he will move away from this insanity before he is forced to, just because

it's not his thing.

Like this is not his thing.

And if he starts paying a price, and he knows that, like, it's very hard for me to imagine that RFK is going into the Oval office and being like, we're finally changing the B schedule.

And Trump is like, well, thank God.

You know, like, it's kind of like, do whatever, do whatever you're going to do.

I know this is your bailiwick.

Do this.

But the minute it starts costing him, I wonder whether he can be moved to go back to reality and safety.

He did that.

He did get that question the other week in the Oval about the

attempt in Florida to do away with the vaccine mandates for kids.

And he was like, vaccines work.

Vaccines work.

But it's like, did he say that because he's pro-vaccine or because he's anti-deSantis?

Like, I couldn't really figure that out.

Good question.

Well, however, we can get it done.

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All right.

With all this End of the Republic stuff happening,

we haven't gotten the chance yet to talk about Kamala Harris's new book, 107 Days.

It's out Tuesday.

More excerpts are making the rounds, including one where

So the New York Times has both a book review and a piece that sort of like gives some of the highlights, some of the excerpt highlights.

And we can just get into some of the fun ones.

Here's one that I think, I think we all, this is the one we all gravitated to here in the office.

This is from the New York Times.

Minutes before she was to step on stage at a presidential debate in September of 2024, she received a call from Mr.

Biden.

He relayed that his brother told him that Kamala Harris was badmouthing him and that several, quote, power brokers in Philadelphia were threatening not to support her because of it.

Mr.

Biden went on to insist that his own disastrous debate performance had not hurt him with voters and that he had actually beaten Mr.

Trump.

And then this is what Harris writes: quote, I just couldn't understand why he would call me right now and make it all about himself, distracting me with worry about hostile power brokers in the biggest city of the most important swing state right before she was about to go on stage for a debate with Donald Trump.

Dad, I cannot talk to you about this right now.

I do not have the time.

I mean, what?

What?

Man.

Wait, but just so many things.

I know.

I know.

Right.

Like,

what's the worst part?

That, first of all, dude is insisting that he won the debate.

I mean,

tells you everything.

Right.

Or, I mean, I guess obviously it's that he's calling her right before these incredibly important debates on

107 days.

You don't have a lot of time to go and do that.

To me, that honestly speaks more to senility than

cruelty or, you know, trying to undermine her.

It's like, it makes no sense.

No part of it makes sense.

Honestly, I don't think you have to choose.

Well, that's.

Yeah, I'm trying to like, how does that happen?

I guess, because the president doesn't dial the phone himself.

Right.

Right.

Someone, he picks up the phone and says, put me through to Kamala Harris.

And so I assume the person who connected the call was like, obviously he's calling to wish her good luck.

And maybe that was the original intent of the call.

And it just went off the rails.

I don't know.

It's not great.

Her fraught relationship with Biden forms the undercurrent of the book.

Quote, my feelings for him were grounded in warmth and loyalty, but they had become complicated over time with hurt and disappointment.

And that is basically the sort of the theme of the book.

I will just say,

and

I got an advanced copy of the book.

I'm not going to break any embargo, but I read it as well.

And

the Biden defenders out there, the people who are still out there, still fighting the fight, just telling you guys, I don't know, put those swords down.

Lay down your arms.

Because you know what?

You can go after Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson and everyone on Twitter and all the pundits that you don't like.

This was the nominee of the party.

She was there.

She's got phone calls that she's written stuff down.

Like it is

Joe Biden was not in the right here.

Do you think it changes?

I mean, she, Tim Alberta was making this point.

I mean, she was the vice president of the United States.

It's not like she was some random, like, you know, assistant to an assistant.

Do you think it changes the way

administrations work in terms of like decision-making?

Because here it's like,

I understand it was incredibly challenging to say, wait a second, don't do this.

But look, I mean, look, look what

fucking happened.

And now everyone's coming out and you see this sort of how fraught it was, how wrenching it all was.

And I just wonder if it makes people feel differently the next time there's something very questionable that's happening inside or whether, I mean,

I guess I wonder what is the end game of a book like this coming out?

Like, what is the net net,

what effect does this actually have?

I think it's very unique to the president themselves.

Yeah.

Right.

Like, just based on, I don't think this is necessarily true of when he was vice president, we worked with him, but based on the accounts, I have not read this book, but in some of the other accounts that we've read about Biden, he was the opposite of Obama, right?

Obama would seek out contrary opinions at all time, and contrary opinions were not welcome in a a lot of Biden's meetings, either by the president or his senior advisors.

And particularly as it got towards the end.

Particularly as it got towards the end.

You know, you could look like every administration, like you look at the Bush administration, you just had the vice president like running the country just by getting the president to sign memos during their weekly lunch that he wasn't sure what was in them.

So I think there are all kinds of challenges.

Like look at the current administration where the president has delegated Twitter and podcasts to the vice president.

That's his primary spheres of responsibility.

I also think that the portrait you get out of this book, along with Jake and Alex's book, along with all the other reporting that's happened and everything that we've experienced ourselves, is it would be easier to figure this all out if it had been some grand conspiracy where everyone was like, he's got dementia and we've got to cover it up.

Right.

And that was clearly not what happened.

What happened was it was

a collective action problem where a lot of people were like, ooh, I had a weird interaction with him, but then other people told me he's fine and he has good days and bad days and maybe this is okay.

And I saw, and he was really smart in that meeting and he made a great decision.

And I don't think he should run, but like, really, who else is going to run?

And no one else is stepping up.

And what do we have?

So much equivocate.

Like, I think that's what I'm saying.

Exactly.

And that, which is inertia.

It's an unsatisfying truth.

And it seems like that is the truth.

It feels like that holds true today.

Yeah.

We see bad shit happening and everyone's like,

which is what, which by, I mean, to the reason I sometimes keep harping on this is there is a lesson, even though that is a very specific circumstance that happened in 2024, there is a lesson going forward, which is like, don't just expect that someone else is going to take care of it and that it's going to be fine and that someone in charge is going to be, you know, like, if you see something, say something.

It's kitty genovese.

It's kitty genovese.

Don't go do something if you hear a scream.

Yep.

And if you're, and if you're in these organizations, right?

And if you're in this stuff, because I think there's a lot of people who, and to be completely fair, there's a lot of people who just weren't around Biden a lot, so they didn't know they were working for them.

But like, you know, if you have doubts,

the thing to do is not just put your head down and just tough it through and think everything's going to be fine.

It's not just a backpack on the floor of the subway.

That is right.

If you see something, say something.

That's an East Coast reference for you, West Coasters.

That's our little thing.

Remember that in Boston?

So much defense.

Boston.

The tea.

L Chicago.

Whatever.

Anyway.

Second city.

All right.

So that was fun.

Thanks for joining us, Alex.

Oh, my God.

And welcome.

Welcome to the family.

Thank you.

I'm going to go eat some more RX bars.

Love that.

Love seeing you in person, Dan.

Let's make a habit of it.

All right.

I'll come down more often now.

That's a lie.

Have a good weekend, everyone.

We'll be back in your feeds on Sunday with a special Sunday, Pod Save America.

Bye, everyone.

Bye.

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