'Solutions are known, but rarely acted upon': Why are governments failing to Close the Gap? || Insiders: On Background

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Well, the Prime Minister will be at the Garma Festival on Saturday in East Arnhem Land.

It's a unique gathering of Indigenous leaders, policy makers, musicians, artists.

It's a celebration of Yol New culture and a forum for genuine debate.

Opposition leader Susan Lee won't be there, but she will be making her own visit next week to remote Indigenous communities in the Kimberley in WA.

Both leaders are clearly trying to show they're focused on Indigenous advancement.

But nearly two years on from the voice referendum, the latest closing the gap update this week has again revealed, well, disappointing results.

There's been improvement on the number of Indigenous kids enrolled in preschool and employment numbers are stronger.

But when it comes to early childhood development, the number of children in out-of-home care, adult incarceration rates, and Indigenous suicide, we're going backwards.

Why are we struggling to close the gap?

Is this policy approach failing?

And is it time for a more radical change?

That's what I'm keen to explore.

I'm David Spears, I'm Ngunnawal Country at Parliament House in Canberra.

Welcome to Insiders on Background.

Thomas Mayo is the Assistant National Secretary of the Maritime Union of Australia and was one of the prominent campaigners for an Indigenous voice to parliament.

Thomas Mayo, welcome.

Thanks.

Good to talk to you.

Look, I want to start on the Closing the Gap and I guess get a bit of a big picture thought from you because there are mixed views on this whole approach.

There's, of course, the argument that this regular update of how we're tracking on all these target areas gives us transparency, allows us to put some pressure on state, territory, federal governments, and bureaucrats as to why they need to lift their game on certain areas and see where things are working and where they're not.

But there's also on the other side a narrative that, or an argument, that this narrative of disadvantage and despair is only reinforced by the way we do this, close close the gap, and the way it's covered.

What do you think?

Well, I think there's fair arguments on both sides, but I think the most important thing for the average Australian and for decision makers is that they take notice of how we are failing.

It's a sad set of results that we're seeing again, and especially when we consider that these aren't just reports.

You know, we're not just talking about statistics, we're talking about real people.

They're alive

behind each of these numbers.

These are real people.

I mean,

they are, you know, again, depressing when you look at the figures.

We're on track to meet four of the targets.

Last year we were on track to meet five, so it's a little worse than that.

We're going backwards in a whole bunch of areas I mentioned.

Why do you think we're still failing?

Well, I think we're failing because there's so many layers of decision-making, but the least listened to and the least influence is the decisions of the communities themselves and what Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have to say.

It's massively frustrating that the solutions are known

but they're rarely acted on.

It's hugely frustrating that when experts speak about these things, you know, through Royal Commission reports, for example, such as the Royal Commission into Deaths in Custody over 30 years ago, that recommendations aren't fully implemented.

It's a huge frustration as well that when

good programs are set up or good policies, that it could be only three years later that you have a complete change in direction,

that it's a wasteful cycle and it wastes lives.

What's an example of that where you've seen a good policy approach reversed because someone new comes in and says we're going to change things?

Well, an excellent example is one that I heard often as I travelled the country,

you know, with the voice, with the Uluru statement from the heart, was on employment.

The community,

the CDEP program was a program that

communities had

a lot of say on

what sort of meaningful work there was in communities.

That was taken away, it was destroyed by Tony Abbott that introduced a different program, CDP,

that made it much more punitive, that was much more like work for the dole, it was disconnected from the communities,

and know all of that infrastructure that was set up in communities

the the

the the sort of positivity or the

the enjoyment of that work doing work that built things in communities was just taken away I guess that's a good example of going backwards I mean Tony Abbott that was more than 10 years ago now is this still happening

you mentioned community voices not being listened to I guess you know and we'll come to where we're at in terms of the argument around the voice and the the referendum that failed.

But

are communities still being ignored?

Is that still happening today?

Look, I think there's been improvement compared to the last government.

But

that's why I mentioned the layers of decision-making.

You've got the departments to deal with, you've got all of that bureaucracy, you've got

this great difficulty to see things implemented effectively and on a consistent basis.

And this is one of the reasons why Indigenous people were calling for a voice to have that highest level, I think, of authority to speak for ourselves, a constitutionally backed form of

recognition.

And to see that squandered

and lost was a sad thing.

But we have to find new ways now.

And so

it's important that

we continue to push for this sort of change, for systemic systemic change.

And hopefully there'll be some announcements at Garma about that, too.

And I'll come to that as well.

But just sticking on the data that we've seen on Closing the Gap, I mean, in the Northern Territory, it's particularly bad news.

We've seen the figures specifically for the Territory going backwards on eight target areas, adult incarceration, youth incarceration in particular.

Is this a result of the tough on crime approach that the CLP government that came in last year in the Territory has adopted?

I mean, they were very upfront about they wanted to lower the age of criminal responsibility from 12 to 10.

They've done that.

Are we now seeing the result of that in these figures?

Yeah, we are.

I mean, it's another example of how things can start to improve, but then

the easy path for politicians, especially ones with very little shame about these things, like the country Liberal Party in the Northern Territory, they can use us as a political football, a scapegoat for crime.

I mean, no one's denying that there are issues with crime in the Northern Territory and in some communities, but to ignore the experts and also good examples of how you reduce crime is an absolute shame.

The Territorians, the people there voted for this.

They were very upfront, as I say.

I mean

what do you say to that argument that, well, they have a mandate to do what they've done?

Well I want to say to Territorians and to other communities where they're concerned about crime that

the commitment that is made to reduce crime is not being met.

They are breaking those promises by going down this line of tough on crime.

And when I talk about tough on crime, what I mean is an ignorance to the reasons why people are disaffected, why youth

are disconnected to the rest of society.

It ignores

the legacy of failed policies, of services taken away, services needed by families and by those babies that grow up and then start to have these issues in life.

You can't ignore those things and expect to fix the problem.

You can't just lock up more and more children

and further traumatise them and expect that we can have improvement in the future.

And coming back to the point you made earlier about there are real lives behind each of these numbers, each of these stats, what does it mean to an Indigenous kid who is locked up in the territory?

Are they more likely on average to

turn their life around and get on track or go the other way?

Well, the science is in, you know, and the statistics are there to see that these sorts of policies, locking up kids and being punitive about it, you know, ignoring circumstances and not letting judges be able to use their expertise and make decisions,

just

sets children down the path to be adults that are committing crime.

It's just

an absolute failure what the Northern Territory Government is doing and we're seeing it in these statistics now this report.

Is there more the Commonwealth can do here to pressure the Northern Territory Government

if it's not meeting these close-the-gap targets, not doing well enough?

Should there be some sort of stronger consequence?

Well, there's a rot setting in in the Northern Territory and the Northern Territory Government is Trump-like.

If you listen to any of their rhetoric about these things,

you know, just a complete ignorance, again, to experts.

The Chief Minister Leah Finocchiaro has said of people that are complaining about excessive force from police, you know, which we saw the coroner report that there is a problem with racism in the police force, to say that they're uneducated.

You know, this sort of

attack on people that understand the issues, that are experts, or people that have taken the time to learn about these issues and advocate strongly for them,

to bring them down by saying that they're uneducated is just the height of ignorance.

But do you want to see the Commonwealth put more pressure on that territory government?

There does need to be pressure on the Northern Territory government.

You know, again, we're talking about real lives.

The Commonwealth has territory powers.

They need to consider these things.

Or even in how

a lot of the funding goes into the Northern Territory Territory coffers from the Commonwealth.

But the country Liberal Party in the Northern Territory, the anti-government, are taking things backwards at a great rate of knots.

They're not serving the community that are concerned about crime.

They're breaking those promises and they're damaging lives and harming people.

Let's look at what the Prime Minister's doing Saturday.

He'll be at the Gamer Festival, where, as I mentioned, nearly a couple of years on from the voice referendum.

What would you like to hear from Anthony Albanese in this speech?

Well, I would like to hear a commitment to systemic change, to,

you know, even though we've lost the argument about constitutional recognition, it doesn't mean that the need to come up with ways to ensure that the people that are affected by the decisions are at the front of decision-making.

That's the sort of vision that we need.

You're talking about the structure of

it may not be a constitutionally enshrined voice to Parliament, but some mechanism that's not there at the moment to listen to community?

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, we're a democracy.

We understand that representation is important.

We understand that accountability of leaders is important.

And I think we have a real gap in policy and Indigenous affairs.

So, you know, we also understand that we need experts working on these things and bringing all of that together to guide the government to make the best decisions.

I mean, the government would say, well, there's the Coalition of the Peaks, peak organisations that it listens to, consults with.

Sounds like you're suggesting there needs to be some representative form of body that can talk to government still.

Yeah, I think the Coalition of Peaks do important work

on their areas of expertise, on health, on education, absolutely should be listened to.

But there is structural reform needed to ensure that

where

the heads of department, for example, are making decisions, or even those bureaucrats beneath them, for consistency's sake, for the best delivery of these programs, there still needs to be great change.

So, a legislated voice, if not a constitutionally enshrined one?

Oh, look, I think that's a decision that First Nations people need to make since the referendum.

We haven't had that opportunity to come together.

What do you think?

Well,

I think that it would make sense to do that.

Obviously, I was a big supporter of a constitutional voice.

It must be something that's recognised by government, whether that's through legislation or through a commitment.

You know, even treaties are important ways to do these things.

But they're all important things that we can achieve and we should achieve.

There's a fight against disinformation as we do these things, so there needs to be the courage from leaders and also from our allies in the Australian public to push against that disinformation that will undoubtedly come, for example, in Victoria, as a progress treaty.

And what's so interesting what you just said about Indigenous leaders having had a chance to come together since the voice.

I mean, that's quite amazing, really.

This is something that I think people need to consider when it comes to, you know, especially

matters to do with Indigenous affairs that are common across the country.

It's extremely difficult for a people that are only around 4% of the population,

you know, still coming out of

this lack of generational wealth from all of the things that have been done to us and the racism, the exclusion, to be able to organise, to come together and have a debate and a discussion and put forward a collective position, the best possible position that works for our people across the nation.

It's difficult and that's one of the reasons why the voice proposal was so important, but we're going to find ways without that and I want our supporters to know that and to continue to support us.

us.

But when and how does that conversation finally happen about where to next?

Just with pure hard work and

initiative, you know, there is a big meeting in Port Douglas in October of traditional owners, and I'm confident that some decisions will be made there.

You know, we're working in the background, quietly, you know, without beating our chests to help the government to make these decisions and to

sort of reinvigorate

the Australian people's desire for change here.

I think it was always there.

They were confused during the referendum.

There were some very powerful tactics used by the No campaign.

I don't think that Australians are completely ignorant to our issues, though.

I think they know there needs to be change.

That's why there was over 60% support until things

got quite muddied during the campaign itself.

But

I encourage people to continue continue to support our issues and to continue to teach their fellow Australians about these things.

But right now, where to on any sort of constitutional recognition and whether that is still the preferred way forward does seem very unclear.

Do you think we will see in the next twelve months, twenty-four months, some progress on this?

I think people will see clarity on what Indigenous people are calling for.

In the meantime, there's many things that

need to be addressed just so urgently because

they're just harming people right now, like the policies that the Northern Territory government have that are locking more children up.

I mean, 88%, I think it is, of the prison population in the Northern Territory are Indigenous.

I encourage people to look at what the Productivity Commission has reported, you know, these gaps, and to, I think, come to a realisation, how can these things be normal?

How can they have always existed basically

in Australia?

There has been improvement, but how can we still be in a situation where, again,

to the Northern Territory, but generally in this country, that we are some of the most incarcerated people in the entire world.

It's not normal.

It's not a matter of Indigenous people and the decisions we make.

It's a matter of our voicelessness, our powerlessness, a lack of recognition and a lack of vision from leaders.

And that's what we've got to see change.

Thomas Mayo, difficult to talk about but important to talk about.

Thanks for joining us.

Thank you.

And if you have any thoughts on this conversation, do drop us a line, insiders at abc.net.au.

We'll have more on this and the Prime Minister's Garma visit on Sunday morning on Insiders on ABC TV.

Hope you can join us at 9am for that.

The Politics Now podcast, back in your feed next week with Patricia on Monday, and we'll be back with another edition of Insiders on the Background at the end of the week.

Thanks for joining us.

You're making us all feel very excited about being here.