Why this speech made the PM tear up

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Hello and welcome to the party room.

I'm Patricia Carvelis and I'm joining you from Ngunnawal Country in Parliament House in Canberra.

And I'm Frank Kelly on Gadigal Land of the Aura Nation in Sydney but actually PK I really really wish I was there on Ngunnawal Land with you in Pali for the first week of this new parliament, the 48th Parliament.

Doubly wishing it because you're going to be joined in the Pali House studio by a friend of this podcast and host of 7.30, Sarah Ferguson.

You've both been down there all week for the colour and movement.

There's been a surprising lot of it.

There is, I forget it every time, but you had the 19-gun salute and the protests.

They sort of did the protests.

They sort of did.

They stopped it and then they went somewhere and did it again.

And the smoking ceremonies and the welcome to countries and the maiden speeches, which were particularly strong, I think.

There's references to Tinder, I know, I kid you not.

We're already seeing power plays and policy fights break out.

So, like I said, I really wish I was down there.

What's it been like?

Has there been a vibe change down there after Labor's huge landslide win?

Yeah, it's been a huge vibe shift, Fran.

Like significant, noticeable, different vibe in the whole house.

And I don't think it's, it's, it's indisputable.

And I think most politicians who I've talked of lots of different political colours have acknowledged it.

So the fact that the government is spilling across the other side.

I mean, you sit there in question time.

I was there at the first question time.

I was watching this parliament and thinking, oh my, yeah, it's just incredible.

Every Dorothy Dixer asked of the government, a new MP with an incredible backstory too, because they've done some pretty smart and sharp pre-selecting, which is

the vision, the optics, the vibe, the feeling, the happiness.

of the Labour side who are spilling over onto the opposition side.

I mean,

that's weird right like they don't fit on their side there are too many of them and then the coalition front bench it's sort of lackluster a bit

they seem almost down in the dumps i suppose they are

yeah i know but they're not even faking it uh sort of disengaged no sharp pointy questions i don't know the whole vibe of the thing and then i had the prime minister on afternoon briefing and if you're not watching afternoon briefing on the news channel at four o'clock every day or on IVU, you're missing out because he just came in, like literally like walked up out of question time after, you know, the end of it.

And it's just, you could feel this is a man who's, he's, he's loving life, right?

He's loving life.

Well, it was, it was exciting.

It is a new parliament.

It was the first day.

We are accountable as a government.

Question time's an important part of the day.

They didn't land a they didn't land a blow on him.

It was a sort of so

it was a real sort of sense of

these dudes are in massive trouble.

They're fighting about net zero still, Fran, on the first day of question time for them.

There's no focus on the government and pressure on the government.

So, yeah, Fran, being here, it's been really everything I thought it would be.

It's that times 10, really.

Seriously.

I want to get back to the business of the Parliament with Sarah, but there is some actually real news outside of the Parliament, in a sense, right now as we record this on Thursday morning.

Breaking news on the US-Australia tariff tussle.

Our government is confirming it will lift those restrictions on imports of US beef.

With the Agriculture Minister satisfied, is the quote that new measures will effectively manage biosecurity.

Now, the change will mean that beef from the US will be allowed in, even if it came from cows, cattle from Mexico and Canada.

And this has been the issue.

We don't actually have a ban on US cattle, but none come in.

They don't come in because the US herd is relatively small, so a lot of their meat comes from these other countries, Mexico and Canada, and the traceability processes with them aren't strong.

They're not robust.

Now, the Prime Minister's been insisting for months, you remember PK, you know, there will be no watering down of our biosecurity rules, and they're presenting this as the result of a long-running Agriculture Department review process.

But I guess you need to ask the question, and certainly the Nats are asking the question, has the government blinked here?

Because cattle farmers, they're going to be grateful if this wins a reprieve from any threatened tariff of any of our pretty significant beef exports.

I think they're worth about three bill.

But, you know, they don't want to risk.

the herd, so they don't want biosecurity rules watered down.

What do you think?

Does this pave the way, and is that what this is all about, for a better tariff deal all-round beyond beef with Donald Trump because you know we are facing some really really big tariffs on our steel exports for instance well you'll remember that when Donald Trump did speak about Australia several months ago in relation to tariffs and and you know trade restrictions he talked about beef he mentioned it yeah right it was the thing he actually said yeah And so, I mean, I think he misunderstood really what the reason was.

It's obviously not an economic sanction.

It It was about biosecurity.

But the fact that he mentioned it, you asked me the question: is it going to make it easier?

Well, it certainly is,

it can't hurt Fran because it's one of the things they've been wanting, and we are poised to lift that restriction, right?

In terms of the politics here,

okay.

It's a bit of opposition for opposition's sake, and I'll explain.

Here we have David Littleproud, who it's fair to say is under intense internal pressure.

And he's out there saying, you know, that it's about perhaps appeasing, I think that's the word.

But it's just the swiftness of which this has been done.

It looks as though it's been traded away to appease Donald Trump.

Now, this is something that I think we should contest based on facts.

Speed, well, actually, this review's been going on for some time.

It is, I think.

Yeah, I don't know if there's evidence of a speediness.

I think there is some evidence that, in fact, the Australian government was

doing this anyway.

And well, it's pretty useful, isn't it, as you negotiate about other things.

So, yeah, it's certainly part of the

political negotiation and having a sort of card in your back,

a sort of bird in the hand that you've put on the table here.

We've got to have something.

They're absolutely right on all that.

But these are also the guys who were like, why haven't you met Trump?

Why aren't you like, you know camping out outside the white house um trying to sort of uh hug and appease trump right that's the sort of spirit of what they say i mean it seems to me like critique for the point of for the critique's sake so that you can look like you're the hairy chested one on trump while also suggesting that you suck up to trump doesn't make sense i guess that's true i i do think though that it does

certainly if you've got this as you say in your back pocket that you can put on the table and maybe there'll be something around pharmaceuticals too when it comes to that like speeding up processes or things like that so there's a couple of things that won't really change anything but just actually make it a better process there's no doubt it would be better if Anthony Albanese our prime minister could sit across the table from Donald Trump and say here you are Donald so it gets that personal because everyone knows Donald Trump likes a present he likes an offering that's the way he goes that's what you know we've seen it with planes and golf courses and all the rest of it so that would be more effective and there you know I think there's recognition if within labor within the government government too that they do need to get this face-to-face meeting now so they are going to have something to bring to this guy and and everything's going to work out more smoothly if we can get that yeah yeah 100% and and

you know I think that the government has to be very, very serious and defend and explain the robustness of the biosecurity scientific approach that they've taken.

There's going to be a lot of pressure on them to really demonstrate that because they did promise, as you say, during the campaign, yes, you know, we are not going to compromise on any of this.

So there will be, the onus is on them to do that.

But that, you know,

yes, they said they wouldn't compromise.

But Fran, there was detail there too.

They said there was a review and it would be a science-based answer.

And as far as I can see, at face value, as we record this on a Thursday, that is what they've done.

Look, there there is another element here, too, which is the $800 million.

What have we done, Fran?

$800 million.

There's a lot of money.

There's $800 million on the table in Washington.

They've now got $1.6 billion of our money as a down payment on the subs under the Orkus deal, which is fine.

It's all part of the schedule.

Apparently, that's what we're told.

Now we know.

They hadn't mentioned it, by the way.

They hadn't announced that.

It sort of just sort of came out.

And then you got it confirmed, I think, on afternoon briefing.

Yeah, at the PM there, it just broke.

and i was like what's that and he's like it's in the schedule it's in the schedule fair enough but hang on it's in the schedule but isn't there a review in washington i did ask that and he's of their schedule this is the deal this is in the schedule like sounds like yes minister it's in the schedule a little bit but he's his his message is we are going through what we agreed to yeah And yes, they might review whatever they want, but we're expecting that the deal we did will be adhered.

Did you ask the PM if it doesn't, if we don't get the subs, if this review in Washington ends up watering it down or stepping back, do we get the money back?

I didn't ask him because I know the answer and we know, no, we don't get the money back.

I didn't ask him because we don't get the money back.

No, that's not, we, it's it, it, it's a problematic deal.

There's no doubt about it, right?

Like the deal also.

We're the minnow in the deal.

Well, the president of the day, the commander-in-chief, makes the ultimate call, right?

So it's, let's hope he's in a good mood if we want to get the deal we wanted.

Should we bring in our star of our show today?

Let's do it.

Sarah Ferguson is the host of the ABC's 730.

She's been in parliament all week.

Welcome to the party room.

It's lovely to be back at the party.

Listen to my scratchy voice.

You can tell I've been partying already.

I can, you have been.

She's a bit of a wild girl, the old city.

Well, I know what it's like down there, and you know, but I know you too, Sarah, and I'm sure 100% you haven't let all the razzle-dazzle of a new parliament blind you to the politics and all the positioning that we've seen in this first week.

Labor got off the blocks early with star recruits A.D.

France and Sarah Witty.

They're the giant killers.

They're the two who knocked off Peter Dutton and Adam Bant.

So they led off the maiden speeches, which was a bit of a power play.

I mean, our PM doesn't mind having a bit of a niggle, does he?

He doesn't mind.

Well, I wouldn't, I think niggle's too small a word.

It was a little bit like Caesar's armies marching back into Rome.

I thank the member for Dixon for her questioning.

Can I congratulate her on what was an extraordinary first speech in this chamber last night?

Carrying their tributes.

Yes, take this, you lot.

It must have been just

such a painful experience for the opposition, not just to see that chamber stuffed full of Labor MPs, but to hear those really very powerful speeches from Ailey France and Sarah Witty.

It was a hell of a day.

It's been a hell of a couple of days so far, I think, actually.

Yeah, it has been a hell of a couple of days.

Quite a spectacular start to the week, really.

Just before we go on, Pika, you've told us about the sort of the vibe of the chamber.

Sarah, what did you think?

Because I'm not there and I'm itching to be there.

What did it look like having almost two-thirds of the Parliament seats taken up by Labour, all the women on the Labour side?

I mean, what struck you?

The women thing

is such a powerful image.

I think one of the most powerful images that came out of post-the-election was that front page of the paper in Brisbane, which showed the line-up of Labour women from Queensland.

And to see them all scattered throughout the parliament, the seating plan more carefully done than dinner at Buckingham Palace when Donald Trump comes, who's seated where, obviously,

you know, and then that squeezing in of the Liberals and their valiant attempt to put a couple of women behind Susan Susan Lee in question time so it looks like they're populated with women when of course they're not.

So just the layout of the chamber is quite something.

I think it must be a bit rough to be a Labour member right round the far side of the horseshoe.

That's all.

Well I think it's mixed feelings.

I've asked a couple of them.

Yeah I think it's mixed feelings.

I mean it is a bit rough but it's also like oh wow.

Over here.

Yeah like we're so big now we can we can take over all the parts of the house.

They can emote freely too.

No.

Even cameras won't grab them.

Yeah that's a good point.

It's interesting though, the way that in all of the imagery that Susan Lee is putting out to the public, it is all power women shots, the women behind her.

She's sending a signal about where she wants the party to go, but

it is a little bit disingenuous for what it does not reflect reality.

It does not reflect the numbers of what's seated behind her and it doesn't reflect the, in a sense, the nature of the battle going on inside the party about how you change that.

But

sitting there as a coalition member, particularly a Liberal member, the numbers are in front of you.

The image of their problems is represented right there.

I think it would be very interesting to

go and sit with them.

Psychologically, the psychological impact of that, that's what I think is

interesting.

I think so.

Now, just staying with Labor and the people, the giant killers, as Fran described them,

Ailey France, for instance, whose story is so remarkable.

Like Sarah that's that story on 730 which was really great

telling her story.

She's a former journalist, Paralympian.

She was encouraged to make her third successful tilt to parliament in the seat of Dixon

by the words of her late son Henry who died of leukemia, which is just a year, just over a year ago.

It's just such a tragic story.

That story really affected me and I could tell it affected you because you looked really emotional on air.

I've never had a moment like that

on air.

I said I do watch you and I was like, oh Sarah's keeping, she's not there was a particular line.

If anyone hasn't watched it, it's really worth going and digging it out of iView because one of the things that Ailey France says when reflecting on that decision and what lay behind it, she described her son who was sick with cancer at the time, telling her that she was afraid.

One night he said to me,

Mum, can I come and sleep next to you?

And he did, and I just watched him all night.

I watched him like I always did when he was a baby,

just in awe of him,

in awe of him.

Looking back, I think he was frightened.

You know,

he still needed his mum, and for him to ask at that age to come and sleep next to me was a

meeted his mum.

For a mother to hear another mother say,

or any, indeed any anybody with close family members, to hear them say that that child is afraid, your role as a mother is to feed and nurture and to keep your child safe and

you do that, that's everything you do, but here is suddenly a circumstance where you are powerless because he is afraid and you cannot make that fear of death go away and your child should not die before you,

and you can't stifle or extinguish entirely their fear.

And children shouldn't be afraid.

And what can be more terrifying than death?

So that's a very,

these are deep thoughts, but I found it.

I started crying in the studio.

I tipped my head back to make the tears go back inside my eyes because, as you know, you're wearing makeup, and

you know, being a big mess

isn't good.

So it was,

I really,

I really struggled more than at any other time in my career.

I could tell and,

you know, I'm not glad you were struggling, but your feelings were mine as just a viewer.

And my sister, who's not a journalist, not in politics, texted me watching 7.30 as she does, saying to me, I'm not coping with this story.

I cannot cope with what's happened to this woman.

I cannot.

She's so impressive.

Yes.

And it takes us to impressive.

Yes.

She took out Peter Dutton as well.

She gave the first speech.

She delivered it.

Like,

what a talent too.

Like, just independently, what a talent.

And again, that's the Labour story of this week.

You know, I remember when the Liberals called the women in the Labour Party the quota girls.

Do you remember that?

Like, I'm old, so I remember that.

And I just looked at her because I remember that, because it's such an offensive, lots of them wouldn't use that term now, right?

But some people did.

And I looked at someone like her and I thought.

None of that works anymore.

Anymore.

Correct.

The world has really changed.

Yes.

Can I just throw another random thought in there, which I noticed yesterday?

Nicolette Buller was given a question in the first question time, and she delivered it with some aplomb.

Thank you, Speaker.

My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for the Environment.

One of the first acts of this government was to approve the extension to the North West Gas Project, locking in billions of tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions out past this century.

Whenever she has made unpopular decisions in the previous term, the Minister for the Environment said she was simply following the law.

Minister, you are the law.

When will the pro-fossil fuel Albanese government stop gaslighting the Australian public?

You know, quite a big deal.

There's making your speech, there's getting all the, you know, choosing the right narrative for your speech, and then there's being given your first question.

And she's like,

in that nail-biting finish, the very blue-ribbon seat that

will be contested now in the courts, but yeah, she did win.

And she's there right now.

She's there, and uh obviously she was given one of the you know she and kate cheney i think from from the crossbench were given uh questions in the first question time and she uh she did it she knocked it out of the park that's a it's a big chamber and for anyone who hasn't ever been in the chamber on television you get no sense of the of the size of the room and the and the height of the ceiling and the amount of force you have to have to fill it

and and not just that the sort of the the rowdiness and can sometimes offensiveness of it i mean it was a long time ago now but i remember hearing one coalition mp calling out when jenny macklin was a minister you know saying where's your broom you know in other words a witch you know now that that probably wouldn't happen now but the a lot does happen that's very

it's just off and it's loud and it's disquieting and discomforting and if you're new to that and you've operated in normal workplaces it's like what what

yeah okay so so guys i want to go to the government's agenda and how the government's handled this week right and sarah you interviewed interviewed the Prime Minister.

His big issues this week that he's,

you know, in legislation pushing is, of course, the childcare reforms, which is huge and important.

And because there's an emergency going on in the childcare sector,

his signature issue is childcare, so that matters a lot.

And the HECS legislation reducing student debt, which was very popular, particularly with younger people, but I think a lot of people who think we are saddling young people with too much debt, right?

We are saddling young people with too much debt.

Fact check, we are.

Like they are clearly, yeah, and there's a lot of issues around that.

Now, you spoke to Jason Clare about this.

Do you think the government is kind of stepping up to this challenge?

Because, you know, they could have been on the back foot this week on some of these things too, but they've tried to bring to the parliament answers on this.

Well, I wanted to ask you two both this question.

Like, last, in the last term of parliament, Jason Clare wasn't everywhere on childcare.

Now he is.

He's obviously been put in charge of clearing it up now as the senior minister in the portfolio.

And

I think he's doing a very good job in terms of communication.

Oddly enough, in terms of emotion, he got quite emotional during our interview last night because he was talking about

his son's childcare teacher and how important she is to him and how worried he is about childcare workers being maligned in the midst of this crisis.

The people who work in our centres, the good, honest, hard-working people who love our kids, feel tarnished, feel tarred by this.

People have been been spat on in the streets for wearing their uniform.

They're the best asset we've got here to keep our kids safe.

When my wife fell pregnant for the second time, we showed ultrasound to my little boy Jack and told him he was going to be a big brother and we thought he'd be really excited.

The first thing he said was, I can't wait to tell Kelly.

Kelly is the woman that looked after him at childcare and it told me that this is not an ordinary job.

You know, they've come forward with this legislation, but it depends on so many things going right.

So it's still a point of vulnerability because they're talking about having the ability to shut down centres.

But you need a lot of regulators.

You need a lot of people to go and check centres.

There's 15,000 in Australia.

They actually only get assessed.

The average time is every four years.

Some of them haven't been assessed in 10 years.

So how do you know where the problems are?

So they need a lot more people looking at the centres.

And if they're going to send federal employees to go and look at them, they'll need to be trained up so the the question on this will well you know as always it will be on the actual delivery.

Well that's true and it's always true.

I mean my view is they had no choice but to move quickly and heavily on this issue.

The public outrage over these abuse, what's allegations in Victoria, the uncover the uncovering of all of that, it was so strong they had to move.

I'm not saying they weren't moved by the right motivations.

I'm sure they were.

Jason Clare, to be fair, he's the Education Minister, but he did move early on this.

He commissioned the Productivity Commission to do a review, a very solid review into early childhood education and care.

There's one element of that that really sticks out to me that the government hasn't really gone to at all, that is a recommendation there should be an independent early childhood education and care commission.

Now, I know people will say, oh, that's just another bureaucracy, more red tape.

The fact is the...

the quality control that we have, the regulators we have in place, state and federal, are not doing a good job.

They're not.

You know, the threat is that they're going to cut childcare funding if operators are found to be below par or, you know, unsafe.

But, you know, and I think the opposition is raising a question here.

It's all very well to say you can do that, but what if you're in a childcare desert and it's the only childcare operator and the government just cuts the funding?

That's not, that's going to pose all sorts of other problems.

So it's a, you're right, it's a very layered thing.

PKA, what do you think about the political political strategy of saying,

admitting the failure, we were too slow, all governments were too slow, we were too slow, we didn't do enough, we need to do better.

Was that the only option available to them?

Yeah, 100%.

That is, you can see Jason Clare is a school of the Peter Beatty

management style.

And I think it's really smart.

I noticed, too, when I put it to John O'Dunny on an afternoon briefing, who is the shadow minister here, and mentioned, hey, we've had all these

Royal Commission recommendations for a long time too, which pertain to this sort of stuff.

After 2015.

Yeah, like it's not.

That's why they're all working so cooperatively.

He's he copped it too.

He did the same thing.

Yeah, no, we didn't do the right thing.

It wasn't good enough what we did.

I take responsibility for my side of politics failure here too.

And so you're getting a bit of,

I think they've read the room.

Just to go back to the sort of atmospherics of this week, guys, and first question time was obviously a huge moment for a brand new opposition leader, Susan Lee.

But before she got into the chamber,

she had the rug pulled out from under her by, I call it an ambush really from within, the two former National Party leaders, Barnaby Joyce and Michael McCormick, deciding that that day was a good one to take up the oxygen with their private members' bill to ditch Australia's net zero by 2050 commitment.

What did you think of the timing of that, Sarah?

I mean, I think you've suggested to Barnaby Joyce on 7.30 that he's these days an agent of chaos, which was a great term.

He was very, that's ridiculous.

What?

What?

Agent to chaos?

Me?

I am not interested in politics.

This is about net zero.

Yeah, yeah.

This is not about David Littleproud.

There is absolutely no, this is not about David.

It is not about me.

And that's a question.

That's a question.

These conversations sphere off into something that's got nothing to do with net zero.

Okay.

I think it is about net zero too, to be fair.

But it's about everything, right?

Yes.

I mean, the timing, you don't take, you don't steal Susan Lee's thunder.

They did.

And you know, they didn't do it to steal her thunder.

They did it to steal David Littleproud's thunder.

You know, they know that the consequences of that.

This is, I mean, look, you're right, Fran, the net zero question is obviously...

is going to be deadly serious for the coalition we've got.

So we've got WA, we've got Queensland, I think already South Australia and the Northern Territory in terms of liberal branches,

the local Liberal parties moving against net zero.

So here it comes.

And then Jane Hume valiantly yesterday,

the electorate has told us over and over again that they want solutions.

Do you think we're moving to the point where they're going to ditch it?

They're going to take advantage of some complexities in the world and say, no, we don't want it anymore.

I think net zero is...

I think we've had a crystal ball, Sarah, so I can't tell you.

I think net zero in the coalition is dead.

Yeah.

I think you're probably right.

And I think it will lead.

I think it's the biggest existential crisis that the Liberal Party will have.

They will have to have a reckoning about whether the coalition can stay together.

So that will revisit.

That will happen again.

This was Malcolm Turnbull's prophecy, wasn't it?

Remember when he quit, when he left, he was ousted?

And he said, they will never resolve this, something like, I haven't got the quote, but they will never resolve this in this coalition, in this party room.

And this will bedevil them.

And it is bedeviling them.

It's, yeah, I literally think this is going to be the moment.

And for Susan Lee, even when she's being pushed on it at the moment, she seems weak.

And the reason she seems weak is because she is, in terms of the power she has in the party room.

You know what?

I really wanted to be down there with you too.

And I'm kicking myself that I'm not.

But Sarah, it's been great having you on the podcast.

Again, thank you.

Thank you very much indeed.

Thanks, Sarah.

Questions without notice, and I give the call to the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition.

Thank you, Mr.

Speaker.

My question is to the Prime Minister.

The bells are ringing.

That means it's time for question time.

And look, we've got a competing question time at the moment.

But ours is not bad.

This week's question comes from Leone.

Hi, Piquet and Fran.

Leone from Canberra here.

Long time listener, first time making contact.

Hi.

I've been listening with some surprise to reports of Liberals wondering whether Anthony Albanese will go easier on Susan Lee because she's a woman.

Have they forgotten how the Liberals treated Julia Gillard when she led the ALP?

Because I remember attacks of a kind that no male leader has ever been subjected to.

Or do they expect better behaviour from male Labor MPs than we saw from male Liberal MPs?

Thanks.

Bye.

And that's better than not bad, Leone.

That's a really good question.

You know, do we expect better behaviour from male Labor MPs than we saw from male Liberal MPs?

Well, not necessarily, but look, the Labor leader operates

in an ecosystem where more than half of his party room are female, more than half of his cabinet are female.

So that is a reality for him.

But also, I think, you know, we learned a lot, well, I hope we did, from the treatment of Julia Gillard as our first female Prime Minister.

She was subjected to, I mean, everyone remembers her misogynist speech and her response to Tony Abbott, I will not be lectured on misogyny and sexism from this man.

But, you know, there was terrible behaviour.

Remember the protest outside Parliament House, Ditch the Witch and Bob Brown's bitch.

I mean, these are,

they were unacceptable then.

They, I don't think, would happen now or be sanctioned by a coalition.

Maybe I'm wrong.

Is the Prime Minister going to go softer on Susan Lee?

I don't think he will go soft in terms.

I think he is a political warrior, but with Peter Dutton, he was up against another very fierce contender.

He was a very oppositionist individual.

He was a hardliner.

Susan Lee is not those things by her personality.

The Prime Minister is renowned in the Parliament, across Parliament, I think, PK, tell me if I'm wrong, of actually being a good negotiator, that that's how he can get things done often because he actually is quite good at managing people across the aisle.

So, you know, let's see.

But I think the times are different.

The atmospheric will be different.

Yeah, I think the atmospherics will be different.

And in fact, I interviewed Allegra Spender because the independents, including her and other independents, are trying to push for more changes to the standing orders and rules of the parliament to try and get rid of this kind of behaviour.

Now, there are already rules, but she wants it to go further.

But she did say the first question time she thought was so far better than she'd seen before.

So, you know, she gave it a bit of a tick in terms of the tone.

But, you know, her concern was, let's see if this lasts, sort of thing.

So, let's see.

But yeah, I mean,

I don't think Labour men should get a free pass.

If we see, like, why would they?

Why should they?

And I would expect that if we do see any sexism come out of their mouths, that the Labour women will also come in hard against them and sort of say that's not acceptable.

Now, I think I've told this anecdote before, but I've had a very senior Labour man say to me, you know, you have no idea how much the party has changed since we've had so many women in it, things that we used to be able to make jokes about, we can't make jokes about anymore.

And we've realised we shouldn't, like they've gone through their own journey, which is healthy, but

it's just not on.

And the other part of that is, PK, we've had the senior women within Labour say that they regret they didn't speak out more strongly behind Gillard to combat that sexism.

They feel bad that they didn't do that.

So they've said that publicly.

Yeah, and we know Julia Gillard herself didn't really want to confront it because it was like let's just you know you don't want to feed into it as well so there's always a strategy to like you know you don't want to make it the story but I've always you know I've always was sympathetic to that not just to her but just generally to that view but increasingly I think well you know I'm yeah it's tiresome maybe it's middle age keep sending your questions in because they are excellent the partyroom at abc.net.au is where you send them to and the voice notes are the ones we like and keep following us it's the politics now feed on the abc Listen app.

That's where this podcast, the party room, lives, so you'll never miss an episode.

But David Spears will be back in your podcast feed on Saturday for Insiders on Background.

And he's speaking to Andrew Hudson from the Centre for Policy Development.

So, you know, New Parliament, lots of policy.

That'll be great.

And can I put a special thanks to Brett and Jade, who were us last week and put out an excellent podcast that was very well listened to and by me too.

They did just a really great job.

So thank you because sometimes,

well, in fact, a bit later this year, Fran and I are going to be awake at the same time together, too.

So, it's good to have all of these like really smart ABC minds bring you the party room.

See you, Fran.

See you, PK.