'Racism' in the NT police. Will the government push for change?

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Hello and welcome to the party room.

I'm Patricia Carvellis and I'm joining you from Wurundjeri Country in Melbourne.

And I'm Frank Kelly on the Gaddigal Land of the Aura Nation in Sydney and PK.

Such a huge week.

I mean the headlines, let's face it, captivated really by the guilty verdict in the mushroom murder trial.

Others though, people, other people more focused on that shock decision by the RBA this week to not cut interest rates.

And then there was Donald Trump and those personal letters he's written to leaders, allies and others telling them their exports to the US will now attract big tariffs.

I think I could just sum it up by saying it's been a very weird week, Piquet.

I think weird is a good way to go about it.

Weird,

lots of stories in lots of different spaces, you're right, but somehow

coalescing in some,

yeah, with some undercurrents of politics.

Even the mushroom case if you think about it has been analyzed through sort of a feminist lens now about the way that we understand women who are perpetrators i've actually fran i'll tell you this i've got a text message from a listener who says can you and fran do an episode about the way women and crime are understood and i thought well It's kind of not our remish, but maybe we should.

We probably could.

We probably could.

Look, just a hot tip, everyone.

We're not actually getting into the mushroom verdict today.

If that's more your kind of diet you should tune into the abc's mushroom case daily podcast they've been doing a great job but pk you might want to talk about a lot but i just don't think we've got the time not not the time and also let's let's just say it call it for what it is not the expertise but it's been an important week though particularly for First Nations people in Australia.

It was meant to be a week of celebration and there have been moments of celebration for lots of Indigenous people.

It's the 50th anniversary of NAIDOC Week, but the real news, of course, and just a warning to our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander listeners that this does contain the name of an Indigenous person who has died used with the permission of their families, just so you know before we start.

The kind of consequential news for justice in this country is that coroners long-awaited findings of the inquest into the death of 19-year-old Kulmanjai Walker at the hands of Northern Territory Police Constable Zachary Rolfe.

Now, the coroner found the police constable was racist and could not rule out that racism had contributed to the death of the young Undamu man.

And just, you know, on that theme of there was celebration as well.

That is a very dark story, but I've been speaking with reporters on the ground and there's also often the sounds of some joy in that community too, because it is NAIDOC week and they are doing lots of things.

So there is so much to talk about with Carly Williams, who's a Kwandamuka woman, and also the ABC's National Indigenous correspondent.

She's joining us.

We're going to really dig into that.

Yeah, and she's been in Uundamu all week, so I think that's going to be fantastic.

Look, there is much to be said, PK, but looking forward, the Prime Minister is off to China, which is always significant for an Australian leader.

He will be meeting with President Xi Jinping.

It's a six-day trip, which is a long one.

It comes obviously at a critical time, not just in our relationship with China, our major trading partner by a long way, but also in our relationship with the United States, as the Prime Minister famously struggles to land that face-to-face meeting with Donald Trump.

This is actually his fourth meeting with Xi Jinping, so that's a contrast the opposition's been happy to make much of.

But also in terms of timing, as Donald Trump intervenes so spectacularly in the global trading order, you know, he's been slapping tariffs on some of their allies, some of our major trading partners.

He's been also threatening immense tariffs on things like pharmaceuticals, which would be a really significant hit to one of Australia's key exports to America.

So these are vex times in those terms.

And, you know, I haven't even mentioned the geostrategic pressures in our region, the security pressures, the defence pressures, which are obviously a key background to this trip and to our relationship with America and with China right now.

If we can kind of zoom out and

have a bit of a conversation about what the Prime Minister is trying to achieve on this trip, it is a consequential trip.

It's incredibly significant.

Even meeting with Xi Jinping on

the territory of the Chinese is very significant.

And the fact that the meeting is even happening before he's got to meet with Donald Trump.

Can I say, I don't think the Prime Minister designed it that way.

I think it's really important to make the point that he didn't sort of internally or whatever go, we must meet the Chinese first.

It's not like that.

No, no, he was meant to meet Donald Trump at the G7 a while back.

But as it turns out,

this is the consequence of the, I like to call it the sort of impolite tardiness of the US, because while there is a lot of political pressure on the Prime Minister, I'm not saying there shouldn't be at all, there should also be a lot of scrutiny on

what a bad friend the US are.

I mean, this is a, you know, this is not, this is getting into frenemy territory, it's my favourite term.

Because if you're going to be a good ally, you do have to respect the relationship back.

And I don't see a lot of that from the US.

So what's the point of the China trip?

Well, you know, we all remember of course that under the Morrison government, Australia was in the deep freeze.

There were a lot of tariffs that the Chinese had put on us.

Then the Albanese government was successful in really campaigning to get some of those off.

That's clearly a good thing for us.

But there are going to be some difficult conversations here.

The PM has already rejected two requests from China to incorporate artificial intelligence into an updated updated free trade deal and loosening foreign investment rules.

So hard line on some of those issues.

He's expected to attend this Australia-China CEO roundtable.

Very much it is about trying to get a sort of deeper relationship on the economic front.

So yes, the tariffs have been lifted.

That means that the, you know, we go back to status quo.

But my understanding is they would like to even deepen the relationship.

Australia is looking all over the place.

It's not wanting to go back entirely to sort of an over-reliance on China.

It's looking to diversify trade relationships across the board at the moment.

Look at the EU deal.

But it is also thinking about how we can make sure that that relationship with China is maintained at this phase.

There are some tricky conversations they fran, which we could talk about, like human rights concerns, particularly the five-year-long detention of the Australian citizen writer Yang Hangjun, who's been handed a suspended death sentence on spying charges that he denies.

His health is declining, France.

So that's...

The Prime Minister will have to raise that issue again on Chinese territory.

It's not all easy.

It's not all easy.

You know, China, in the wake of the Donald Trump sort of tariff craziness, China has been at pains to, what was the quote, urge Australia to take the hand of friendship.

It certainly offered the hand of friendship.

Let's go together.

Yeah, that's right.

It's keen to be seen to be, you know, the upholder of the global trading order as against the US.

So this is a complete turning of the tables.

It wants to expand the free trade agreement with Australia, which is, you know, a positive offer, even if Australia is not going to go anywhere near some of their suggestions about AI, for instance.

You know, the Australian government's already banned deep seek in the public service desks, so it's it's not going to fall for that, I don't think.

But it is a very, it's a very strange time, Piquet, because on the one hand, we've got our closest ally, the United States.

We've engaged in a $368 billion security and defence pact called AUKUS with the United States.

Then we've got...

our biggest trading ally, we've got a $325 billion trading relationship with China.

So those sort of two things are in balance.

And Anthony Albanese needs to go there against, you know,

and managing those scales if you like and you know we shouldn't forget that earlier this year there was a flotilla of Chinese warships

circumnavigating our coastline it they were conducting live firing exercises of our coast they hadn't warned our government of that you know there's been some very unfriendly to say the very least uh defence gestures from the chinese so it's not all you know ease and light with china that's for sure um the prime minister gave uh an important speech over the weekend the John Curtin Address.

I'm not sure if you caught it, PK, but there's been much said about it.

It's a very symbolic lecture for Labor.

This John Curtin speech, he's a Labour hero for the work he did.

in the Second World War and you know basically beginning the alliance, the close alliance with America.

You know, he said Australia looked to America now, in other words, away from Britain.

That was a major change.

And it was a recognition that Australia's fate would be decided in our region.

This is how Anthony Albanese

has described it in this speech.

He said it was Australia speaking for ourselves as a foreign nation.

Now, hearing that speech at this time, PK, when we've got the US threatening major trade barriers against Australia, we've got China reaching out its hand but at the same time sending more ships around our coastline.

Some have seen the Prime Minister's words as Australia edging away from the US alliance at this time,

edging away from our reliance on the US as a security guarantor, which would be a big call given we are in no way have the capacity to guarantee our own security.

Others have welcomed it as a statement of our sort of sovereign decision-making when it comes to defence and security.

But either way, it was a very interesting speech to have made on the eve of this visit to China.

And I think it's the Prime Minister trying to work out how he goes there with these competing

national interests of security and trade in these topsy-turvy times topsy-turvy is he should start every statement with in these topsy turvy times

what a shamuzzle i i i demand it look i think all of that is very well articulated fran at the same time there's the orkas review the coalition putting a lot of pressure on anthony albanese saying unless you take control of this it will uh will collapse that's some pressure from james patterson so all of these topsy-turvy uh pressures going on.

And at the same time, we've got

what's it called?

Trump tariff Armageddon, basically.

So, we've got the new round.

Are they new rounds?

Those letters, those letters,

the U.S.

President has been sending.

I don't know if you've read any.

Oh, I have, they're hilarious.

They're extraordinary, written and posted on Donald Trump's own social media platform, TrueSocial, in his signature style, which is sort of major words in capitals and in bold, and they're very bizarre.

Very bizarre.

As a person who uses capital and bold, I'm not going to criticize him for that.

Yes, but in your trade negotiations documents.

Of course, I'm just being silly.

It is very significant that this is the way he operates.

But, you know, we've known this man in the public political sphere for 10 years.

This is just how he operates.

And so I think we've adjusted to that.

I mean, you can't change it.

The other big issue, of course, is that he said he's going to slap a 200% tariff on pharmaceuticals.

We'll be announcing something very soon on pharmaceuticals.

We're going to give people about a year, a year and a half to come in, and after that, they're going to be tariffed if they have to bring the pharmaceuticals.

Now, that does hurt us.

That hurts us big time.

There's a year till it happens, apparently, as we know.

Often they say things are going to happen and then they don't quite happen.

So all of those caveats.

But 200%,

that's enormous.

Jim Chalmers has come out and said there will be absolutely no negotiation on the PBS.

The PBS is not up for negotiation.

This Labor government, under Anthony Albanese, strengthens the PBS, not weakens it.

We've made that clear on a number of occasions.

I had him on an afternoon briefing and I put different scenarios to him, like, for instance, drug companies in the United States hate how long it takes to get a drug approved in our country.

Would they look at that element?

Just looking at, you know, what are they willing to do to try

potentially to get around this.

Absolutely no negotiation, as far as I could hear it from Jim Chalmers.

They're going to play this very hard.

And I suspect the Trump administration may play it very hard too.

So,

this is the next front and one that really does matter because it's at the heart of the way we understand our,

you know, our system of a safety net around medicines and health in this country.

And we fiercely defend it.

Yeah, and we fiercely defend it, and it's not going anywhere.

and that's what the government's saying.

But I think there's a lot of posturing going on here.

Yes, a big pharma in America hates Australia's PBS.

It calls it socialised medicine.

It is lobbying hard and it has in times past too lobbied hard to get it changed.

It wants, as you say, medicines to be listed more quickly.

It also wants Australian government to pay more for the medicine in recognition of the massive innovation going on in health medicine at the moment.

You know, we've got all this gene technology, cell innovation, cell therapies.

These are the new frontiers of medicine and these are expensive.

And the Australian PBS system, the committee that runs that, they drive a very hard bargain to, you know, give permission for these American drugs to be listed.

What it means is, though, that if they cost more, the Australian government has to pay more for them, even though we as citizens get those capped rates that are very cheap for our medicines, around $31 or even cheaper for some of them.

But already, the PBS costs the Australian government $18 billion a year.

So this is tricky for the government to negotiate.

But PK, the government says it won't make any changes.

I think it will.

There's already been parliamentary committees into this, a lot of lobbying over the last couple of years that basically our system is old-fashioned, it is antiquated, it's depriving Australians of this most modern health technology.

And we need to upgrade, certainly we need to get much quicker, shorten the time of listing and approving medicines onto the PBS.

I think that is something that will be thrown onto onto the negotiating table.

And perhaps also acknowledge that we're going to need to spend more because Australians need these therapies.

The Australian government will give up something, but we won't give up the PBS.

No, that architecture is safe broadly, but the points you make about antiquated and

some shake-up, you make a good point, although the government will be very careful about making it look like it's a capitulation because the politics here is important for them to look like they are fiercely defending this and they are but i mean you know they don't want any suggestion that they won't look just finally we're recording this as we do people probably know if they're regular listeners our time on a thursday

uh and we are waiting any moment for the prime minister to stand up so will tony burke so will gillian segal who's the anti-semitism envoy and and she has got a big report that she's handed to the government with a a sweeping plan that she's she's worked on for a year to combat anti-Semitism.

We've seen, of course, very recently the attack on the synagogue in East Melbourne, a few other incidents as well.

And of course, it's been broader than that.

I understand it will include recommendations that would require new legislation, as well as longer-term aims to improve understanding of Jewish culture that goes beyond just the Holocaust.

I think that's what they're really aiming for here, that they think that there needs to be a broader understanding

around

the sort of ancient hatred which we've seen.

You know, it's undeniable towards Jewish people across the world through history and clearly a contemporary form now.

And so it's going to be a big deal.

Yeah, understanding what anti-Semitism is, I think we need to start there really.

So the police recognise it, but also as a community, we understand what it means when we say that.

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what's adopted and what's not.

It's time to bring our guest in.

Should we do it?

Let's it.

Carly Williams is a Kwandamuka woman and National Indigenous correspondent.

Welcome to the party room, Carly.

Thank you.

Carly, it is great to have you back fresh from UN Demu.

And a warning to our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander listeners, this discussion does contain the names and images of Indigenous people who have died, used with the permission of their families.

And Carly, on Monday, the Northern Territory Coroner Elizabeth Armitage delivered those long-awaited findings into the fatal shooting of Kumanjai Walker, a 19-year-old man from UN Demu.

They were pretty stark.

They made for difficult reading.

Not only did the coroner find that the former constable, Zachary Rolfe, was racist, she also found that he was operating in a culture of institutional racism within parts of the Northern Territory Police.

You were there on the ground with the community.

How did the family and the community at UN Demu receive, hear those findings?

Was it tough or do they feel validated?

Firstly, the family was grateful that the inquest findings could be handed down on homelands, in community.

There wasn't an upheaval and a need to travel again because everybody is exhausted, Fran.

So we sat there in the red dirt at the local radio station, Paul Media.

This is about three, four hours drive northwest of Alice Springs.

We sat in the shade of the gum tree.

and we listened to Coroner Armitage hand down those findings.

It was truly unprecedented what she said, strong words.

So it's fair for community to want to feel safe with their extended family around.

Kulman Jay Walker's cousins, Samara,

she said that the family felt validated because They had always felt that racism killed Kulman Jay.

That's what she said.

And as you said, the findings found that Zachary Rolfe was racist and he benefited from operating in this workplace with the hallmarks of institutional racism.

That was validating for the family as well.

And the coroner couldn't rule out if that racism played a role in Kumanje's death that night in 2019.

That was the big line in a sense, wasn't it?

The through line.

We must remember Rolf was cleared of all charges by a Supreme Court jury in 2022, including murder.

He said this week in a statement he was entitled to the presumption of innocence and didn't accept the coronial findings as they were, quote, inconsistent with his rightful acquittal.

And he didn't accept the criticisms that he failed to adhere to operational safety training or that he ignored training.

He said that this was never about race, but the coroner disagreed with that.

On the recommendations, the family wanted stronger recommendations around police accountability.

And they also wanted to see something recommended about police holding guns in remote Aboriginal communities.

And the coroner stopped short of that.

So I asked the family also if you could have one big change today,

what would it be?

And Samara said that she'd want a national police ombudsman to investigate complaints against the Northern Territory police independent national police so independent from the territory government and the territory police that's right that's that's really interesting and and I think to any reasonable person listening

I don't think it sounds like a huge ask, right?

This is just people just want accountability built into the system, it seems to me, Carly.

Well, that's right.

There were several pages of the coroner's report that talked about changes and updates that the Northern Territory government and the police have implemented since 2019.

But if these changes are working, why have we had two Aboriginal deaths in custody in the Northern Territory, one on the floor of Kohl's, you know, in the last few months?

Yeah, that's true if they're working.

But also, are they still in place?

I mean, the Northern Territory Police responded, and correct me if I'm wrong, but what I heard saying they're looking at it, they've already put in place some things, they've got an anti-racism review.

But at the same time, the CLP government, which is now in power up there in the Territory, has cancelled cancelled the general racism review that was taking place across the territory, across the departments, including in the police.

It's also announced plans to cancel some of the diversionary programs, the funding for those that will be in place.

These were things that the coroner had recommended.

And they're also doing things, I think I'm right here, Carly, correct me if I'm wrong, but like bringing in plans to arm public transport.

officers.

Well, there's public housing officers.

These are people that are in charge of public housing, social housing, and the game.

At the same time, the community view in Damu, for instance, for 10 years have been saying, could the police please not bring guns into the community?

Ceasefire.

Yeah, that's right.

And we've got...

Federal Labor responding this week saying there's a fair bit of, oh, we're going to read the report, we're going to read the report.

And Melindieri McCarthy, the Minister for Indigenous Australian, she's promised to read the report but I haven't heard her say that she's going to put actual pressure on the Northern Territory government right so um we know

why not why aren't they saying that I mean much of the territory government because it's a territory not a state is Commonwealth funding yes they have only

pressure from the federal government why do you think we haven't seen a strong a really strong statement from the federal government the federal minister about action and condemnation why do you think that is so Albanese government he's bankrolling much of the Northern Territory services and co-ops, like you just said.

And the opposition said the federal government should be held accountable.

As I understand it, the Commonwealth can attach conditions to specific purpose payments to influence reform, but can it threaten or withhold or redirect funds if reforms or standards are not met, like performance benchmarks?

Of course it can.

It can.

I mean, if you think about

Commonwealth agreements on housing, that's a good example at the moment.

Right now, the government is putting all sorts of conditions on housing.

So you can get this pot of money, you can get an extra bit if you can get things up and running quicker, that sort of thing, right?

The point is

you can have cause and effect, you know, like creating a nexus.

We will do this, but you need to have these outcomes.

And so what we can have is genuine

agreements.

It has to, though, be at a cabinet level with the Prime Minister.

This is the thing.

Melandeary McCarthy, I believe, is a minister that is incredibly passionate about this area, cares deeply about justice in the territory.

She lives and breathes this stuff, right?

But she needs a broader level of support from her government to be able to flex their muscle on this stuff.

I think that's what's missing this week.

It is.

From the PM.

And speaking of outcomes, I spent time with Walprey woman Emalisha, who was running a school holidays program on Tuesday with about seven kids including one of her own babies and they were playing basketball in Yundamu you know I could see the generation I feel like I met tomorrow's leaders here they were amazing kids that afternoon she was holding an hour cooking class for the women in yundamu and then she had afl women's footy training these are programs that work but senator lydia thorpe told us if these self-determined programs were properly funded to self-determine you know mobs' own solutions in our own communities, then we wouldn't see what's happening here today.

So will the Minister for Indigenous Australians get more support from the PM?

That's the question.

Well, yeah, and all of that comes back to the voice.

I mean, what you described there was we did that podcast on the voice, and we talked about all those sorts of programs that were exactly what the voice would be elements of what would happen under the voice, the model.

There's a recommendation in the podcast

that says there should be a local leadership

in Indigenous movements.

But since The Voice,

things have really, I think Indigenous people feel, I know they feel, because I heard another speech from Indigenous elder Auntie Pat Anderson

this week as part of NAIDOC week, saying that since the voice, there's basically been a complete failure on Indigenous policy.

Since the voice, policy development and...

and negotiation and consultation is really fragmented, is really chaotic.

You know, Indigenous Australians are feeling like things are not at a good space for them at the moment.

Is that an overall finding, do you think?

And what did you make of the fact that Malandira McCarthy, the minister, this week, certainly some interpreter is saying that the government is interested in some kind of federal truth-telling process because this seemed to be a change.

But now is the time, I hope, as we go forward, that we can look at what we can do at a federal level in regards to taking the steps that are required around truth-telling.

Is the government moving away from those practical, practical measures like housing and education and jobs back more towards what was under the framework of the Uluru Statement, do you think?

It was interesting to hear Minister McCarthy genuinely

saying that the Yarook Commission out of Victoria and commending that and saying it was a significant moment in history.

And we've had the Queensland Truth and Hearing Inquiry yanked from the new Liberal government last year.

And many elders, I know in Queensland, because I'm a Murray, you know, Kwanamuka, a lot of elders even on my mother's country on North Thorpe Oak Island saying we need

federal support for truth-telling and they still want it.

Not all community members want it, but

I think there's still big demand there.

Mick Gooda, Social Justice Commissioner, he's worked on the Royal Commission into youth detention in 2016.

He has talked to to me this year about not giving up on the federal government pushing for truth telling.

He often points to international examples like the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission, the Inquiry in Canada, and the agenda for Aboriginal affairs is usually set out by politicians and Aboriginal leaders at Garma, and that's just around the corner.

So we could hear more on that there.

The Prime Minister's going again, I think.

He is.

All right.

Well, Fran, you can take take my spot at Karma this year.

Yeah, maybe.

You're otherwise engaged.

I am Two Up the Duff to Camp in the Red Dirt this year.

So yeah, French.

Two up the Duff to Camp.

That is so good.

I want a jumper that says two up the duff to camp.

That is so good.

Do you know how well that would go?

Oh my God, business side hustle.

Yeah, I mean, just back to the sort of fundamental of people wanting truth telling.

And you're right, it's not a universal thing.

Some people in the community don't think it would be useful, but I do think there is a bit of a consensus that there is a need to tell the truth.

The issue, though, Carly, is you've got to be prepared to then receive the truth and the recommendations that come with that and to do something with them.

And on that front, I have zero confidence that there is any enthusiasm to do that.

And that is the real conundrum here.

Okay, oh, yeah.

Well, look at the recommendations from the Walker inquest report, right?

I find it hard to see the Northern Territory government who won the election last year on their tough on crime measures.

I see it hard for them to take on recommendations like number six out of the report, to pay for a leadership group in Uindamu who would control how services are delivered.

Sounds like a local voice, right?

Sounds like a voice, yep.

Or recommendation four, the government should train and resource culturally skilled mediators to deal with conflict between police and youth.

This CLP government in the Northern Territory, like you said, they're putting guns in the hands of some public housing officers.

They are putting dress codes on buses, no stained shirts on buses.

This will

disproportionately affect Aboriginal people and people living below the poverty line.

I spoke to a barrister out of Darwin.

I know you know him, Fran John Lawrence, seni counsel.

He's been involved with lots of royal commissions and inquests into Black Death in custody.

And he says, unfortunately, this inquest has limited worth.

And every lawyer who's been involved with this case knew from the beginning that there would be limited progress for Aboriginal justice.

John questions the recommendations.

Even if they were ultra-radical, would they do anything?

Because the government is, of course, in no way legally obliged to move on them.

Okay, well, that's all fairly depressing.

Let's finish talking about NAIDOC Week

because it's the 50th anniversary of NADOC Week, so it's a

significant thing to be acknowledging and celebrating.

The theme is the next generation strength, vision and legacy.

And I feel like that theme was made in the wake of the voice referendum because we're, you know, looking, Indigenous First Nations people, you know, and there's been a number of them writing about this saying we need to look to the future.

I mentioned Pat Anderson earlier in that speech she gave.

She's given a couple of speeches now, even before we all knew the NAIDOC theme, talking about succession planning, pushing for a new generation of leaders to

emerge in the First Nations community.

But I ask you, when are these people who have been in charge for decades going to step aside and make room for the next generation?

What did you think about her strong words on policy failure, but also this need for generation change?

And have you noted that on the ground with young First Nations people?

Do they see and do they have a desire for the leaders that have been there for three or four decades now to move aside and let new ideas in?

Was it

Auntie Pat, she said, the eviction notice is get out of the room, you know, elders, like it's the next generation's turn, sort of thing.

There is definitely a desire for young people to step in.

And being in Ninja Mu all week, my colleague Stephanie Bolchie from the Indigenous Affairs team interviewed a Walpre dad, Robin Brown, on the ground about his hopes for his kids, you know, being this NAIDOC week, this heavy NAIDOC week for Walprey mob, but you know, seeing some

hope there for the future when you look at these little kids thriving in community.

And

he said there is a need for more supports to give them moving forward.

And like I said, I feel like I met some of tomorrow's leaders in Nindamu.

So there's definitely a desire, but there is a need for community-based programs and more funding around that.

There needs to be also a lot of political capital and attention expended.

And that's

the missing part, I feel, at the moment.

But yeah, isn't it incredible to watch, though, just to just have a moment of reflection

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians consistently punching above their weight despite so many barriers, right?

In so many fields.

That's what NAIDOC is about.

And, you know, feeling enlightened and celebrating that black excellence, even on a very, very sad week, that was the Walker inquest findings.

You know, I'm going to tune into that Black Fellow Show on ABC, Shameless Shameless Plug, Bridget Brennan.

Yeah.

Annie Dingo, Uncle Ernie, and Isaac Compton, who is hilarious.

If you need a lift, you just get on TikTok and look at Isaac's latest videos.

Activism, they are comedy, they are just raw mob laughs.

Do it.

Yeah, he's so fantastic.

Yeah, I sort of, I hope he doesn't think I'm sort of stalking him.

I watch his videos over and over.

I'm sure you can see, you know, you can see on Instagram.

It's like I'm probably the first to have looked.

Anyway, love your work, Carly, as always.

Two up the duff to camp.

Catch you later.

Going on, Carly.

It's going on t-shirts.

Good luck with all of that.

Thanks, Carly.

Thank you.

We'll move to questions without notice.

We'll give the call to the Leader of the Opposition.

Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker.

My questions to the Prime Minister.

Order.

The bells are ringing.

That means it's time for our question time.

This week's question comes from Andrew from Darwin.

Hi, Fran and Piquet.

With the Economic Reform Roundtable coming up next month, I've been listening to discussions about possible tax reform like potential increases to the GST, road user charges, super taxes and even the idea of an inheritance tax.

Most proposals seem to target the individual.

Why isn't there more focus on increasing the minerals resource tax given the vast wealth generated by Australia's natural resources?

Shouldn't that be a bigger part of the conversation to benefit all Australians?

Ah, that old chestnut.

Yeah, something that, you know, some people really want, the minerals resources tax, but Fran, politically...

A lot of people want it, but you won't find them in the Labor government, I think.

I'm telling you.

The backstory to this is the minerals resource rent tax, or the profit tax, minerals profit tax, sometimes called, was one of the recommendations of the Henry Tax Review.

The Gillard government, with Wayne Swann as treasurer, thought it was a great idea because mining profits were going through the roof and I think a lot of Australians thought, oh, well, fair enough.

They should, it's our resources, they should pay more for it.

The mining company fought back well and truly.

There was a massive campaign, well funded by, we had big miners like Gina Reinhart and Andrew Twiggy Forrest in their sort of high-vis gear off the back of trucks, sort of, you know, making ads about why this is going to kill Australian jobs

and your standard of living.

Anyway,

Labor suffered for it.

They feel like they suffered, paid a big price for it.

They won't go near it again.

But as you say, Piquet, a lot of people think, well, it does make sense because they do pay taxes.

They pay royalty taxes.

And most of these are state taxes.

They pay some Commonwealth taxes.

But by and large, they get a lot of tax cuts too, and they get a lot of subsidies.

And generally, they are making massive profits of resources that you could argue belong.

to all Australians.

Yeah, so so far I haven't seen it as a proposal that's really being considered for this roundtable.

But you know, I don't know, pigs fly and stuff.

Look, yeah, I think it's unlikely, but there'll be other ideas that emerge and solidify over the next couple of weeks.

So watch that space.

And of course, we will be discussing them as they emerge.

We sure will.

Thank you so much for your question.

Keep sending your questions in the partyroom at ABC.net.au.

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So please follow us.

Fran, as always, a Thursday pleasure.

Nice to speak to you.

See you, Piquet.

See you, Fran.