Linda Burney: Yoorrook Commission lays "very fine blueprint for the way forward"

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It's been a landmark week for Aboriginal people in Victoria and around Australia, with the nation's first truth-telling commission handing down its final report.

Established in 2021, the Urok Commission had all the forensic powers of a Royal Commission.

And after 1,300 submissions and 250 witnesses, including the Victorian Premier and Police Commissioner, it's delivered stark findings that crimes against humanity and a genocide were committed against Aboriginal people and that systemic racism remains today.

So what happens next?

What form, if any, will redress take and how will the government respond?

I'm David Lipson, filling in for David Spears on the lands of the Ngunnawal people.

This is Insiders on Background.

Linda Burney is the former Federal Minister for Indigenous Affairs and joins me now.

Thanks so much for being with us.

Thank you, David.

As an Aboriginal woman and someone who's devoted much of your life to improving the lives of Aboriginal people, what did this Commission report mean to you personally?

Well, the first thing we really need to say is that a massive congratulations to the Euro Commission,

the First People's Assembly in Victoria, the Victorian Government for having the bravery to undertake this process, and also

very importantly to all of those, both Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people, that bore witness to this.

To me personally, I've read the report and I've particularly paid attention to the recommendations and I think it really does lay a very fine blueprint for the way forward, particularly in Victoria.

But I do think there's some lessons for other levels of government which the report goes to as well.

You know, because I know the history and the story, I wasn't surprised or shocked by anything.

But the

the history of First Peoples in Victoria is a magnificent one.

They've got wonderful community-based organisations that have been running for two decades or more, and they're really providing, I think, more than any other state,

a community-based way of doing things.

And does that shine a light, do you think, for other states around Australia?

I do think it does shine a light.

When you have a look at the recommendations, David, as you have,

it basically went into

the subtitles of land, education, health, housing, economic and political life and access to records and also provided a way forward in terms of treaty through the First People's Assembly.

And I

am

really encouraging

the leader of the opposition, Brad

Bouten, is it, in Victoria, to keep it open, mine,

realise that this is a historic opportunity to work across the parliament and to do things

together.

And I just hope it doesn't become politicised.

This was a forensic report with Royal Commission powers.

And among the findings was, well, one of the strongest words in the English language, really, a word that didn't exist until World War II, genocide, to describe what happened to Aboriginal people and Aboriginal culture in Victoria.

Can you talk to us about the significance of that word in this context?

Well, this was an exercise into truth.

And the truth is that

the

you know, the meaning of genocide perfectly fits the story of

what happened to people, not just in Victoria, but around the country.

When you think of the various policies that existed for Aboriginal people,

including extermination and assimilation, then it pretty much fits the bill as far as I'm concerned.

There had been some sort of tutting, I guess you could say, in the past when advocates or historians used the word genocide to describe what happened to Aboriginal people.

You obviously believe that their view has been exonerated.

I do think that.

I mean,

the important thing, and I spoke about this with one of your fellow journalists this morning,

this

report and the way forward in terms of reconciliation is not apportioning blame.

I think there is a real thirst in this country, and I saw it through the referendum process whilst the outcome wasn't what we wanted.

There was so much eagerness and thirst for the whole story of this country and I have this

dream that every single Australian should feel absolutely proud of the remarkable human story in our country, which is over 60,000 years old.

It's not just the wrongs of the past that were laid bare in this report.

And, you know, as you say, it's not just wrongs that

were sort of unearthed here.

It's also the findings of systemic injustice and racism, discriminatory laws, and policy failures today.

And I think that's really important.

As someone who's worked at the very pinnacle of the government's efforts to improve the lives of Indigenous people, what can you tell us about how it is that findings like that can be handed down in 2025?

Well, I'm not shocked by it.

There have been over the years

from the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody, the Bring Them Home report,

Recognition Rights and Reform, which was commissioned by Paul Keating.

They all came up with the same thing, including the final report of the Council for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Reconciliation.

You are absolutely right that

the effects of colonisation have been felt through the generations

and the trauma of that is still existing in our communities today.

And I was very taken by a line in Eleanor Orburg's introduction or Chairperson's report that said colonisation devastated our First People's World and cultures.

Now that goes to a couple of things.

It goes to the truth about colonisation and we are now seeing some very good literature on that.

But it also goes to the fact that there is such diversity amongst Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in Australia.

And I don't think that's well understood.

Yeah, no, I think you're right about that.

It is slowly though becoming better understood, you'd have to agree.

Oh, I absolutely agree.

I think that,

you know, I've got nephews and nieces and

friends, children of children, the children of my friends that are in their 20s and 30s, and their level of understanding because of much of the work that's been done in school curriculum is

worlds apart from when you and I went through school.

I want to drill down on some of the specific findings.

Deaths in custody is one of them.

Now, one in four deaths in custody in 23-24 were Aboriginal.

And the Commission said that these deaths are as a result of institutions that were never designed to care for Aboriginal people.

So many recommendations from the Royal Commission into deaths in custody have never been implemented.

That was 35 years ago.

So what is stopping governments from acting in this space?

Well, the one thing that I really,

really

hope

from this report, and unfortunately I've seen it over the many decades that you've just described, is cherry-picking of state and territory governments, of federal governments, and not looking at the report as a whole and accepting that the only way forward for Indigenous affairs in this country is through proper partnerships and Aboriginal people are being at the decision-making tables.

That's what, in essence, this report is saying.

It's saying that partnerships with health organisations, partnership with education organisations, there's recommendations that go to what universities should be doing.

There's recommendations that go to

equitable distribution of land and sea.

These are the reasons that we have not

seen the progress that we would like.

Incarceration rates are part of the story.

And in the case of the Northern Territory and the recent surge there, that of course comes after a pretty horrific crime wave followed by a clearly articulated tough on crime policy platform by the NT opposition at the time, now the NT government.

It was taken to an election and they won.

At this time, is there an alternative pathway, do you think, for the Northern Territory government under those circumstances, other than what we're seeing in terms of incarceration there?

Well, let's have a think about that.

The reason,

or one of the reasons that we see so many people incarcerated incarcerated is not because of criminality, it's because of life circumstances, it's overcrowding, it's poverty, it's drug and alcohol abuse, and it's also the long-term effects of things like stolen generations and powerlessness.

We had the

disastrous intervention in the Northern Territory that has created a generation of young people that have lost their identity, that have lost so much culture.

So we need to see all of these issues with the big picture of the actual social justice situation and the historical situation that Aboriginal people find themselves in.

Let's take a look at some of the recommendations from the Commission.

In all, they made 100 recommendations, everything from a First People's Fire Authority to more flexible school zoning arrangements.

But really, the most controversial space is around redress, which includes monetary compensation.

Do you think taxpayer money should be used as compensation for past wrongs?

Well, taxpayer money has been used

for compensation for past wrongs.

The redress scheme for

the stolen wages in a number of jurisdictions, the redress scheme for

victims of abuse

and the redress scheme for stolen generations.

So it's a nonsense to say that taxpayer money hasn't been used.

And where governments have been responsible

for those outcomes, in many cases that is true.

You only need to think about the Aboriginal Welfare Board in New South Wales, then monetary compensation is important, but it has to be equitable.

But as I've said earlier today, there are many ways to think about

recompense and compensation,

and it's not always from a monetary payment.

I remember when I was the Minister for Community Services in New South Wales, and we made an apology to

child migrants and

the forgotten Australians and the compensation there wasn't a payout to the individuals.

It was things like proper counselling services, it was things like healing programs, it was things like centers where people could go for advice and help with financial literacy, for example.

So I would like and encourage people, David, through this podcast to think about

compensation and recompense in a broader term than just paying individuals money.

Yeah, that's fair.

And, you know, there are many forms it could take.

And I do just want to stick just one more on that monetary form, though.

Do you think there should be a limitation, a limit on how far back

people should be compensated for, if that makes sense?

I'm not quite sure it's my place to

make a determination about that.

That's what the Ural Commission and the First People's Assembly and the Victorian Government need to work out.

But I've been involved in a number of schemes through the various hats that I've worn throughout life, including the recent Eupler debacle and shameful operations of a funeral fund.

And if you work with the people that have been affected, if you talk to them and really listen to what they've got to say, and then be very honest and say, well, this is what we can do as government.

And as I say, if government is responsible for some of the hurt and the pain and the trauma, then governments need to take that seriously.

Are you getting the sense that the Victorian government is doing just that, is listening and taking this seriously?

I think the Victorian government is very much taking it seriously.

I mean, like you said at the top of the show, you know, the Premier appeared, the police commissioner,

through the leadership of Dan Andrews, initially, of course, this thing started.

And what I really want to

say in terms of

respect

is that despite what was going on in other political realms

in the

pushing down of Aboriginal people, they stuck to their guns.

They've seen this through.

Now the challenge is for the Victorian Parliament to accept what's being said here,

say it in the spirit that it's being given, have a look at the thoroughness and the way in which

the hearings took place and the very thoughtful nature of

the recommendations and the thoroughness and the breadth of

those recommendations and then work with those people that have been part of this on how it can be realised.

One of those recommendations is for an Indigenous representative body with powers, quote, at all levels of political and policy decision-making.

I mean, that sounds a lot like a voice, doesn't it?

I've heard that point made several times over the last few days.

And I guess what I'd say to that is that

South Australia has a voice to the Parliament.

The world hasn't collapsed, the sky hasn't fallen down, and they're getting on doing some very, very solid work.

So is that what we should see, you know, in lieu of a federal voice?

Would you like to see, you know,

carried out at state levels across the country?

Well, what I said, particularly

in the

afterwash of the

referendum, which I'm still getting over, as many people are,

is that we would have to rely on state and territory governments, which are probably better placed to actually put in place mechanisms, whatever they want to call it,

that provide direct advice to governments

at all levels.

After the defeat of the voice, the federal government seems to have placed a lot more focus on seeking out practical solutions.

But do you think, in the wake of this Victorian Truth-Telling Commission, we need to see a federally implemented version of that?

Look,

I'm no longer in the Parliament, so it is up to the Parliament and the Cabinet and the Prime Minister to make those decisions.

But I have long been an advocate

absolutely of the importance of truth-telling in this country.

I've been an educator,

I've been a bureaucrat, I've been

a state minister, I've been a federal minister.

And the thing that I took away, or one of the things I took away from the referendum is the importance of truth.

And six and a half million Australians agree with me on that.

And like you said earlier,

this is the best informed we have ever been as a country, but there is a long way to go.

You can understand why the government was a little bit gun-shy, I guess, after the defeat of that referendum and especially leading into the election.

But now that we're in a new term of government, the government, Labor has this whopping majority.

Are you hearing enough from your former colleagues in Parliament in terms of progressing the issue of reconciliation and

closing the gap?

No, I've been very encouraged actually.

The focus on tangible outcomes by the Prime Minister

is probably the best way to go right at this very moment.

And when you have a look at some of the

achievements that we've been able to do in the first term of a Labor government and continuing into a second term are things like addressing through the Attorney General's deaths in custody, things like, and this may sound silly to you, but the Prime Minister announced 12 commercial laundries in communities across the Northern Territory.

That is going to save lives.

It improves, in particular, things like rheumatic heart disease,

the

incredibly important housing announcements we made, you know, $400 million working with the Northern Territory Government to deliver adequate housing.

David, I was in a community a few months ago.

It was a two-bedroom townhouse and there were 30 people living there.

Tell me how that's a good thing for anyone.

But as you say, you've long been an advocate for federal truth-telling.

There is still money in the budget for Makarata.

Is it time to announce how that's going to be spent?

Well, that's just not up to me to make those decisions.

Sure, but what do you think?

Well, I believe,

let me go back a step.

The Yaruk

Justice Commission took a very judicial type of path to this.

My view

of what would be very worthwhile in this country at the moment is a community-led truth-telling process.

And I see local government as being very important to that.

Local community organisations, schools, historical societies and scout groups.

And a lot of that stuff is going on.

I mean, you know, it's not out there in the headlines.

I was in Nara a couple of weeks ago and met with the

people that advocated for a yes vote in Nara.

They have formed a group called Walking Together and they are going to things like old people's homes.

They are going to things like

organisations that probably they wouldn't have got into

in the referendum and talking about land rights.

It's not about losing your backyard.

There's legislation and it's just a fantastic educational program that will change the face of NARA.

NAIDOC week is about to start.

The theme is the next generation, strength, vision and legacy.

What does that mean to you and how do you think all of Australia should approach this week?

Well

this week has become a very important

week in the Australian calendar.

It's been around for a very long time.

The nature of it has changed over time.

There is a NAIDOC committee

chaired by a very dear friend of mine, Lynette

Riley.

And

the theme to me

this year

is absolutely

timely because

one of the great silver linings

of the defeat and the referendum was the emergence, and I'm so proud of them, I get very emotional,

of young First Nations people in their 20s, 30s, and 40s understanding that

justice is never a straight line.

Justice is a

jagged road that you have setbacks and you have victories in.

But this young group of people, in terms of their leadership,

their approach to things like AI and

the digital age is just remarkable.

And that's one of the great things that have come, that's emerged from the referendum.

Linda Burney, great to get your thoughts on this momentous week.

Thanks for joining us.

Thanks, David.

Well, thanks for tuning in to Insiders on Background.

Don't forget you can email us with any questions or suggestions for topics.

Just send your comments to insiders at abc.net.au.

PK Patricia Carvelis, of course, will be on the couch for Insiders on Sunday morning on ABC TV.

Thanks for being with us.

You're making us all feel very excited about being here.