Alastair Campbell on Trump: "What the f is he talking about?" | Insiders On Background

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After a busy few days in New York, the United Nations, we're now in London, outside number 10 Downing Street, where Anthony Albanese is about to meet his British counterpart, Sir Keir Starmer.

Now, while there has been understandable and very intense focus on whether and when the Prime Minister will meet Donald Trump, that meeting has now been locked in for October 20, often overlooked is how Anthony Albanese is drawing closer to the British Prime Minister and other like-minded progressive leaders like Marcani in Canada.

In fact, here in London today, there's been a gathering of these left-of-centre leaders from Canada, the UK, Australia, and elsewhere working out how to navigate the pretty difficult global terrain they face in this Trump era.

So to get a better understanding of how the UK sees this global environment and the relationship with Australia, who better to talk to than someone who used to work in this building as the communications director to Tony Blair.

Alastair Campbell now co-hosts the most popular political podcast in the UK, The Rest is Politics.

Alastair Campbell, welcome.

Great to have you on the podcast.

Thank you.

Had Rory Stewart on when he was in Melbourne, gosh, some time ago.

So it's a treat to be here in London.

There we go.

In our studio, in our little empire.

It's quite a studio.

It's quite a studio.

Look, as we record this,

there's this meeting, this summit.

It's called the Global Progress Action Summit.

like-minded left-of-centre leaders coming together, I guess, to talk about how to navigate the difficult global environment right now, dominated by Donald Trump.

What do you think?

I mean, there have been these sort of various groupings on the centre-left leaders over the years.

How important is it right now, do you think, in this sort of era that we're in?

Oh, vital.

We put out an episode this morning with

an Austrian guy who's based in Berlin called Gerald Knauss.

And it's about the rise of the alternative for Deutschland, the far-right party in Germany.

And he's just making the links between what's happening there, what's happening with MAGA and the Trump crowd, what's happening here with Farage, Nigel Farage, what's happening in France with the Rassemblement Nationale.

This this is a and he makes the point that these what we define as the far-right,

they they

talk about ideas all the time.

They communicate about ideas all the time.

And I think it's what we used to be better at.

And I think the progressive side of politics has kind of lost that sense of

you've got to always be ahead of the game in ideas.

Sharing ideas, talking about ideas.

And just having ideas.

I mean, I think the thing that you're seeing in where the remote most progressive governments around the world, around the world, where they are in government, which is not that many,

they kind of feel pretty defensive.

You feel that, and this is the power of America and the power of American politics, that the weather, if you like, is being made most of all by them.

Exactly.

And it feels like even at this summit today, they're talking about how to counter what's coming at them from the right on migration in particular.

It is defensive, isn't it?

It's not proactive in terms of, well, here's the, I mean, is it climate?

action that the centre left need to be more focused on what's the where are the ideas that's a really interesting example of where the power of the arguments that are developed by the right in climate.

If you'd have said to me 10, 15 years ago, oh, you know, in a decade or so, people have thought this climate stuff's just a hoax, I said, well, you're nuts.

No, it's only going in one way.

It's all going in one direction.

Right.

And then you have...

Donald Trump, president of the most powerful, one of the two most powerful countries in the world.

I think it's an argument whether America still is.

And he stands up at the United Nations and basically does his usual thing raging about windmills, which are actually wind turbines, and says climate change is a hoax.

It's a green scam, it's a con job.

What did you make of that UN address?

I mean, I was over there, but watching it from here, what did you make of a US president standing there at the United Nations saying, and it wasn't just on climate, it was on migration as well.

What did you make of it?

I thought it was nuts.

I actually spoke to a pretty well-known leader, Prime Minister, who was there in the room.

And I said, what was it like?

And he said, it was dark.

And he said that when Trump spoke there first time round, people kind of thought it was quite funny.

And they laughed at his jokes and what have you and his little obsessions.

But he said it was dark.

And he said you could see all around the room leaders and diplomats thinking, how do we deal with this?

Because this has policy implications for everybody.

Now, the upside is he might move to something else, but that's also the downside, the unpredictability of it.

But just to give you an example, here we are in London.

I mean, how can you, what has he got against our mayor?

Because he said...

And this idea that Sharia, we have Sharia law in London.

What the F is he talking about?

And

it's just kind of...

It's dangerous.

And I did an event in London a few days ago at a festival here where I was in conversation with this guy Curtis Yarvin who's you know one of these kind of

sort of part of this whole MAGA van is very close to Mance and Vance and Peter Thiel in particular and they just create these narratives and because they have such confidence in their narrative and because they've got meet a lot of media on their side and because social media is is now sort of gives them gives everybody a voice They just drive these narratives that, and if you're not careful, you spend your whole time on the other side just sort of rebutting crap.

But they're clearly also finding traction.

For sure.

And particularly on that migration front.

I mean, you see it here, right, with Nigel Farage and the numbers on the streets with the marches and so on.

How do you explain what's going on there?

The migration thing is real because of the sheer scale of movement that there is around the world.

But

what's lost within it is any sense of genuine analysis of issues.

Let me just give you one tiny example.

You probably know, because I know you listen to our podcast, that I'm obsessed with Brexit and it's

a disaster for the country.

But just go back to that.

The slogan was take back control.

It was largely about immigration.

During the period of Boris Johnson's premiership, it quadrupled.

Migration.

Yeah, we lost control.

The numbers got completely out of control.

You know how a Labour government comes in, has to try and sort it,

and it's as if it started the day that Labour came into power.

And you have a debate.

People in the UK

believe that 50% of migrants come here on small boats in the Channel, illegally.

And what is the number?

It's less than four.

Right.

Okay?

But that's what I mean about the debate.

They drive these narratives.

So how does Labour here counter that?

How does Labor?

They've got to grip the issue.

They've got to grip the issue.

They have got to sort it out.

out.

But I think that where they've got to be careful is not to do it in a way that plays into the agenda of your opponent.

So for example, Kirstam made a speech about immigration where he talked about the risk of the country becoming an island of strangers.

It's not.

We're not an island of strangers.

And I think we've got to be careful not to lose the argument because this is so important to the future of the economy at a time when we've shot ourselves in the foot with Brexit.

We've we've got to be so careful not to lose the argument

so that,

you see, what Trump is trying to do is to make people feel, I don't want to live in America, right?

If I'm an immigrant in America, I want to get back home because this is nasty, right?

That's part of what his game is.

I was in hospital last week for an operation, okay?

The doctor was Spanish.

The anaesthetist was from the Middle East.

Because I'm a bit mad, I asked every single person that I came across during the day, where are you from, right?

There was one Brit really in all of the doctors and the nursing staff that I saw during a day which was quite a lot of people right

and likewise you know we're we're getting old and I well exactly and the care home sector I assume you're glad they're all there doing the work that they do so I mean I can't imagine you know too many Brits wanting to do some of the jobs that the immigrants are doing in the care homes and the you know what have you so we've got to be careful about that so they've got to sort it they've got to sort this small base boats issue because it's become totemic.

They've got to sort this issue of the hotels because it's become totemic.

But they've also got to make sure there is a proper debate about this in the country, not driven by the far right, because at the moment that's where it's driven.

You've talked a bit on your podcast about this rise of the far-right Christian nationalism as part of this as well.

What do you think is going on there and where is that heading?

I think it's heading to a dark place if we're not careful, because I think what it's actually about, even on that far-right march, and Tommy Robinson, we're talking far, far right, okay?

Yeah, yeah.

And he puts together, real name Stephen Yaxley Lennon.

He puts this march together, and they were big numbers.

I mean, look, when we did the second referendum campaign on Brexit, we got over a million on the streets, okay?

But they had 150,000 people out on a Saturday afternoon when there were loads of football matches on in London, 150,000 people.

I was amazed how many of them were holding crosses.

okay

some of them these giant crosses that they were dragging along now I'd love to know how many of them went to church the next day I suspect we're talking low numbers right

and but what I think it's about is actually this sense of you know we've lost our

Judeo-Christian identity it's about saying we don't want the Muslims here

And it's a kind of, it's a sort of elevated way of saying it.

And of course, you then see that in the way that,

look at the way that Trump talked at Charlie Kirk's funeral.

Look at the way that Charlie Kirk's death was weaponised as a sort of MAGA

rally.

The funeral was a rally.

And look at how few non-white faces there were there.

That's not America.

Coming back to Anthony Albanese and Keir Starmer, it's a fascinating relationship to watch, certainly from our end.

I don't know what you make of it, but it seems Anthony Albanese clearly likes to move in lockstep with Starmer and also Mark Carney in Canada on recognising Palestine, I think on other issues as well.

It's almost like you've got that safety in numbers, almost a shield when dealing with

a vital relationship still with the US and with Donald Trump.

How do you view it from here?

Who needs each other more?

And is Anthony Albanese and his political success in Australia something that Stana can learn from?

Well, I certainly think that, you know, if I think about over the last 12 months or so,

I can point to a long, long, long, long long list of things that I would look at in the world and say, God, that was bad.

I think Carney's election win and Albanese's election win, from my perspective, were really good.

Okay.

And I think actually there is a, there's something similar about them.

You know, they're not flamboyant characters.

They're not kind of Barack Obama style orators.

They're solid.

They've got values.

They've got decency about them.

And I think that's important.

And it is interesting how, whilst

your guy, whilst Albanese has been slightly struggling to get his foot inside the White House, Kirstama has been able to develop this really strange situation.

Look, Albanese's finally got a meeting again now for next month with Trump, but Starmer just seems to have no trouble at all.

I think the, I mean, in a way, it's a tragedy that Peter Mandelson, who was our ambassador, kind of, you know, copped it over the Epstein relationship because I think actually he was doing a really good job there.

I'm not saying Kevin Rudd's not doing a good job by the way, I'm sure he is.

But I think that I think maybe Britain, it does, look,

the thing to understand about Donald Trump, and it's so blindingly obvious to everyone, right?

There's a very, very, very deep narcissistic streak, okay?

And the Scotland thing with his mum, where his mum was from,

there's something there, right?

The golf courses, it's a big thing.

The royal family.

Loves the Royal Family.

Why does he love the Royal Family?

Because he sees himself as a king.

You know, why do he love staying at Windsor Castle and that ridiculous nonsense of going around the grounds in a carriage with people there?

Because he sees him as, he sees Charles as being his opposite number here.

But Keir does, to be fair to Keir Starmer, he's managed to develop that relationship whilst at the same time rebuilding better relations with the European Union.

So what does Albanese need to do then to build a good relationship with Donald Trump, do you think?

Is there any sort of tips you'd give or advice you could point to?

God, it's hard.

It's really hard.

Does he need to come with a gesture?

Because I mean, Kierstama took the MLA.

Exactly.

Well, the King is your head of state as well.

No, but

you pulled that trick twice.

And I got the feeling from the state banquet that

Trump seemed to take a shine to Kate, Princess Catherine.

So I don't know what you can do.

I guess he's not into cricket.

I don't imagine Ash's tickets are going to do it.

But look, I think it's.

I was talking to somebody who works for a head of government,

sort of middle, you know, similar sized to Australia in terms of the sort of global pecking order, who is just

not getting a meeting, just can't get any traction at all.

Right.

And we're not the only ones.

Right.

And this, and he was talking to, one of his people was talking to Howard Luttnick, the trade guy,

who apparently said to him, listen, mate, just think of an amazing present.

That's it.

So

what is an amazing Australian present that you could take into the opening?

Something gold-plated.

We have a lot of anxiety over the future of the AUKUS deal as well and

maybe Trump would like to put his own stamp on that somehow.

So I guess they could be creatively thinking about what it's interesting you see because in fact we've just recorded an interview with our Defence Secretary and I refer to conversations I've had with Australian politicians in recent weeks where they seem still very, very confident about AUKUS, as was John Healy, our Defence Secretary.

Confident about Trump staying.

Confident about AUKUS solid and it's for the long term, etc.

But I'd be worried about it.

You think so?

Well, I just think the guy who's in charge of it, this guy Colby,

the time that it's taking.

So I don't know, but I think everybody's having to work out how do you deal with somebody who is so volatile,

so America first.

I mean, I think we've all got the message.

It's America first, and he means it.

And so, and can be so vengeful.

I'm convinced for example that the reason for these 50% tariffs on

India are because Pakistan recommended Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize and Modi didn't over the

Indian nuclear little skirmish.

Just on auckis though,

the Brits are obviously right on board.

It's not obviously as big a part of the conversation here as it is for us in Australia.

We are really reliant on this now for our defence posture into the future.

But I don't know, if the US did change the terms at all, would the UK be fine with that, do you reckon?

I hope not.

I hope not.

You don't like AUKUS or do you...

No, I do.

And I think it's...

And whether I like it or I don't like it is kind of irrelevant to the fact that it's such a big deal.

It's a deal that's been done.

And now, you know, the hard work, as it were,

has to be done.

So, look, I would hope that

there are enough kind of grown-ups in the American military debate to make sure sure it does stay and does hold.

But it slightly alarms me that you don't hear that much about it in the States.

And by the way, I don't think, I think we should be talking more about it in the UK context as well, because I think it does matter to us.

I can see why it's so important to Australia, but it matters to us as well.

Finally, Keir Starmer, I mean, he's in a lot of political trouble.

He's only, what, just over a year into the job.

Just explain to our listeners what's gone wrong there and will he survive?

Funnily enough, this is what one of the things we were talking to John Healy about was because John Healy

got elected in 1997 as an MP when we had our first of three election wins and we were talking about the very different mood that followed our election win in 97 and the election win in 2024.

Look, I think government is hard everywhere.

I think it's got a lot harder.

Partly, the public are just more demanding.

I think the challenges are more numerous and greater.

If you just, if you list the really big things that are happening in the world at the moment that you're having to deal with, you know, climate change, inequality,

AI, Trump,

the whole sense of the international stuff, Ukraine, Gaza, Sudan,

weakening of the United Nations, weakening of the international institutions.

It's really, really hard.

Added to which, I think they came when Labour government came in here, first big fight was over winter fuel payment for pensioners.

You know,

always tricky when you're taking things away from pensioners.

Then a kind of, you know, fallout with the farmers over a measure in the budget.

Real difficulties over Gaza,

where the obvious instinct on October the 7th when those attacks happened was to be absolutely rock-solid with Israel.

And then I think slowly adapting to a sense of Israel really being completely out of order in the way that it's prosecuting its case in the world.

Too slowly adapting.

Too slowly.

I think a lot of countries found that.

I still think here, for example, pays a price with a lot of people on the left of the Labour Party, and actually not just on the left, but across the Labour Party and the progressive left more generally.

And this sometimes happens.

He did an interview on LBC at one of our radio stations.

on the day that the Israelis pulled the plug on water and power in Gaza.

And he was asked the question, is that justified?

And

he was kind of locked into the answer of that Israel's got every right to defend itself.

And that was, oh, couldn't adjust the answer.

Couldn't quite adjust it.

And so I think that, you know, the question, will he survive?

I think he will.

There's no doubt that he's had a pretty catastrophic fall in his ratings.

But I think he's a pretty solid.

I see him from time to time, and he's sort of, I think he does stay focused on the long term.

But but where I think we've maybe

the lessons of some of the things that have gone wrong is an understanding and this is something that Camille Harris and Joe Biden find you can deliver a strong economy you can deliver lots of jobs you can have the country feeling like it's actually moving in the right direction doesn't mean you're going to win because so much of modern politics and this is where Farage apes Trump in so many ways it's about feeling it's about mood it's about relationship

so I look, I think Labour's in a big fight, but right across Europe we're in a fight against the hard right.

This is why I recommend people listen to this guy, Gerald Knaus.

I mean, he's just so interesting about how this thing's kind of

they've been planning this for a long time.

And of course we, because we rely so much, as you do, on the relationship with the United States, it's very hard to call it out when you're in government because you need these guys and so many other you know, but the truth is, most British people think that Trump is a disaster for the world.

If you're in the government, you can't really go out and say that.

That makes it difficult.

Yeah.

Fascinating time and fascinating chat to you, Alistair Campbell.

Thanks so much.

Thank you.

You're making us all feel very excited about being here.