Has Sussan Ley gone 'rogue' on Palestine?

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In a world of incremental developments, it's often hard to recognise just how much things have changed.

And if there was any doubt of the extent to which the war in Gaza has upended domestic politics, it's the scenes we've seen play out overnight.

A Prime Minister delivering his biggest speech on the world stage.

And even before he opened his mouth, the opposition leader found herself criticising his government directly with US politicians.

So was it a reckless move in pursuit of rogue foreign policy or a sign of a new world order?

Welcome to Politics Now.

Hi, I'm Brett Worthington, filling in for PK.

And I'm Raph Epstein, host of Mornings on ABC Radio Melbourne.

Raph, I am fascinated about the human moment of something.

So imagine this, You're the Prime Minister.

You've opted not to give a speech at the UN over the full course of a full term.

You're there.

You're about to make probably the biggest speech you're going to make because it's going to be consequential.

You've pledged Australia.

You're going to recognise the state of Palestine.

You're joining with your closest allies.

And even before you get to open your mouth, you find out that Susan Lee, the opposition leader, has not just written to the US politicians to criticise what he's about to say, but reached out and spoken with Israel's foreign minister.

What do you reckon that moment's like?

I was actually wondering what does the young student activist Anthony Albanese, if you'd said to him, hey, you're going to be at the United Nations as prime minister, recognising Palestine as a state.

When he was a young, you know, young politician, I don't think any Western country had even recognized Palestine as a state.

And just on the, you know, Susan Lee's.

Like, it's a pretty bold thing to do, to write to the Americans and ring up the Israeli foreign minister.

But I was also wondering, so it's definitely unusual, it's definitely bold, it's definitely cruel's Albo's moment in some ways.

But we do have a precedent and I was thinking of 2003 and the Iraq war.

You know, Simon Crean opposed the invasion.

He even, I was looking at his speech, he said that it would be a good idea to send the soldiers home.

Australia's soldiers were pre-positioned, ready to go in the invasion.

Labor disagreed with John Howard.

So

it's definitely unusual.

It definitely interferes with Anthony Albanese's speech.

It's not unprecedented to really disagree on a major foreign policy issue.

I think we're just a bit too used to the bipartisanship.

I mean, my question for you is, does it make Anthony Albanese, does it help him land his political moment even more?

Does it actually help, I don't know, burnish the credentials of what he's doing if the opposition are opposing him?

It's just hard to summarise this moment in that we've known this moment was coming for such a long time, as we talked about with Jacob yesterday.

This has long been on Labor's to-do list, and to finally be the Prime Minister to implement something that the party has long been in pursuit of.

The Susan Lee development here, what shocked me most about it was it sits in an environment where you've got these American politicians that have reached out to four world leaders to say, this will not be without consequence, the decision that you're about to take.

Susan Lee has decided to inject herself into that immediate discourse, which is well within your right as an opposition leader.

But to do it on when the Prime Minister is away from the country is usually something that doesn't happen.

There's a general sense of Team Australia, for want of a better phrase, that these debates can play out in a domestic political situation, but to so overtly undermine the man who is leading the country and the leading your opposing party at both the US level and then obviously reaching out to the Israelis as well.

I think it is a big moment.

And, you know, diplomatic circles, you're kind of reading tea leaves and whatnot, but it's hard to underscore that moment.

And I think about Anthony Albanese in so far as he's such an institutionalist.

And what would shock him to his core is that this is happening at a time when he's up for the debate.

But I just don't think he'd be satisfied that this was the time in which that debate should be playing out.

I know.

I think he'd be angry.

And I actually had a few Labor people say to me how unusual it was and even not aggressive, but, you know, they were unhappy.

I guess what really, it shouldn't surprise me.

But in 2025, I thought, because I have been interested in the Middle East, studied the Middle East, have travelled to the Middle East, I think what's amazing is that Britain's recognizing Palestine.

Britain, you know, Britain were there from 1920 to 1948.

They had the mandate from the United Nations predecessor, the League of Nations.

They were in charge.

You know, they were the first global power that said that there'd be a Jewish homeland.

You know, that's the words of the Balfour Declaration.

I thought that would be the focus, but I think I'm just really naive.

The idea, you're right, that Susan Lee contacts Israel and America.

She's pushing those rhetorical buttons.

I think it just points to how Americanized our politics is.

I have no idea if it's going to work for the coalition.

I've heard you and PK, and I've said this as well.

We're different.

We've got mandatory voting.

Our politics is in the middle.

America's politics is on the extremes.

Social media's influence is different.

I think this is 100% the social media polarization of our politics.

It would be unimaginable.

in any time really and until the last five or seven or eight years for an opposition leader to do something like this i have no idea if it's going to work i guess that's my question to you like andrew hastie is off doing his video on the weekend that jacob mentioned with the really nice uh i think it's a 969 ford falcon but they're off doing these things that in any other political time would seem crazy yet it's not actually getting much comment i mean she's she's contacting republican politicians she's ringing the foreign minister of israel I mean, that is, I don't know, do you think it is going to serve them?

And how many, like, they've got to be thinking about her leadership, shoring up her leadership.

They've got to be thinking about votes at the next election.

Does going rogue, as Penny Wong accused her of doing, does it help her achieve either of those things?

I think on a topic like this, which, you know, remember the Susan Lee history.

This is someone who has been in support of and a friend of Palestine for a very long time that has, you know, over the, she will argue that since October 7, her thinking has changed and the ways in which she approaches these issues.

But there are parts, and it's typically the more conservative part of the modern Liberal Party that is very tethered to the state of Israel and the direction that Benjamin and Yahoo is taking.

Now, one of the interesting voices in this whole debate has been Dave Sharma, the former MP who had Malcolm Turnbull's seat.

He's now in the Senate, much more of a moderate figure, but someone who used to be an ambassador, so understands the world of diplomacy.

This morning, he was saying on the radio, this is perfectly acceptable.

And he points to the Mark Latham precedent as something that, you know, has happened in the past.

I wonder what the diplomat Dave Sharma thinks about.

How would I as the diplomat in explaining Australia to the world explain this decision?

What message does it send about the broad approach that's happening here within Australia?

And I think one of the elements of Dave Sharma is clearly a team player.

He said everything you would imagine and he can keep his position on the outer front bench, but he's been one of the few voices on the Liberal side of politics that has been willing to see the shades of grey in this whole situation that has been happening.

So few people are willing to say it's messy.

And yes, Israel has done some bad things, but also they're saying this.

And that shades of grey does not exist.

And so credit to him for being willing to wait in that.

But to what extent is this about Susan Lee?

Maybe a bit of it.

To what extent is it about her leadership?

Probably a bit of that.

To what extent is it seizing a moment and knowing that the Prime Minister's about to make this big speech and you can insert yourself into a news cycle in a more aggressive way instead of responding to it?

It's probably better that as well.

What I keep going back to is when Penny Wong, the foreign minister, said Israel's isolating itself.

And there's a really clear calculation, isn't there, that the government thinks they are 100% in the mainstream.

I actually counted the words of the PM speech.

He spent a good, I think, a good fifth of his speech in recognizing Palestine, but talking about what had happened in Israel, especially focusing on October 7th.

Mentioned the Australian Galit Carboni, who was killed on October the 7th.

So he is, he will definitely say things speaking to the two sides of this argument.

But the government feels like the coalition are leading themselves down an electoral cul-de-sac on climate change.

The government thinks the coalition is leading themselves down an electoral cul-de-sac on immigration.

There's a lot of evidence for

that.

And the government believes the coalition is going down an ideological cul-de-sac.

There aren't that many Jewish voters.

As a Jewish voter, there's not that many of us.

And even Jewish voters are divided amongst themselves.

I just keep coming back.

Penny Wong says Israel is isolating itself.

She's also saying to the coalition, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Not only do we think you're wrong, we think you are not speaking to most Australians.

And I do think, and you can see even like Keir Starmer is facing totally different political problems to Anthony Albanese.

Emmanuel Macron has got very different, but sort of related issues to some of the factors or the things that are going on in Australian politics.

They are all doing this.

I did some more mathematics.

I think it's almost 80% of the recognized United Nations nations that have recognized the state of Palestine.

You can have that debate that sometimes pops up with us.

What difference does it make?

I'm not sure it's helped any Palestinian yet, but that is different to the argument the government makes, that it's a question about whether or not there should be recognition of a Palestinian aspiration to statehood, given everything that has happened since the 7th of October.

And I think that the government thinks they're doing both the right thing and also the thing that is the mainstream thing.

I think they're really comfortable in their lane, aren't they?

I think we're also seeing, though, that as much as the government will know and can predict what the coalition is very likely going to say here, there are awkward questions that Penny Wong is finding herself having to navigate.

On RN Brecke this morning, we talked to a Brisbane doctor, Dr.

Aziz, who's over working in Al-Shifa.

She painted a harrowing picture of what life is like for an emergency room doctor and the conditions that they're navigating.

And in it, she said, well, obviously, she's in support of recognising Palestine, but wondering why this hasn't come sooner.

Even Ed Husick this morning, when he was talking,

talking about the roles with which Australia is a signatory to the genocide conventions, sure punish of it, but what steps are being taken to prevent it.

And Penny Wong's still unable to point to a situation where the government can say they are taking sanctions and working with their allies to sanction Israelis for what is happening in Gaza.

A lot of focus on what's happening in the West Bank.

The incitement of violence within the West Bank has been the key reason for the sanctioning of these two Israeli figures.

But Penny Wong essentially having to concede they can only have influence when they're working with their allies and sanctioning over Gaza is something that the government's not yet willing to do.

Yeah, it's interesting when you said Penny Wong's answering uncomfortable questions.

I'm not sure they are uncomfortable questions.

They are difficult in the moment.

We should question the government on settler violence.

More than a thousand Palestinians, I think, since October 23 have been killed effectively by these settler militias.

They barely face any consequences or punishment whatsoever.

Palestinians face an entirely different court system in the West Bank.

The conviction rate for the military courts, by the way, in the West Bank is 99%.

So essentially, if you are arrested, you are guilty.

So there's lots of questions that are worth asking of governments.

I don't think it is uncomfortable.

You know, something Jacob Grieber referenced yesterday, the people who wake up thinking about this issue every day on both sides of the argument think about it all day, every day,

and in depth.

So I get those texts and those calls on my radio program.

I think there's a huge number of people in Australia who just think like the Prime Minister thinks every innocent life is important.

I don't want a Palestinian kid to die.

I don't want an Israeli kid to die.

And I actually, this is a callous thing to say.

Most people just think of this conflict.

I don't actually think this is true, but it's been happening for thousands of years.

All I ever hear from that region is they're killing each other.

Let me know when it's over.

And I think that's the brutal electoral maths.

Do you think that there is a section of the community that is closely watching then?

What happens next?

Does this bring on...

We're now testing the great theory that recognition can lead to peace rather than peace leading to recognition.

Do you think that the public is paying attention to that?

Nah, not at all.

I mean in some ways the government's argument is bankrupt, right?

Like either Palestinians deserve an inalienable right to the recognition of their statehood or they don't.

Like you either agree with that proposition or you don't.

Clearly a lot of people in Israel don't.

You can make a lot of arguments about oh it should be down the path, you know, after a whole lot of things all happened.

But I mean I don't actually think a lot of those arguments make sense.

I don't think most people are tuned in to that subtlety.

The government is doing this because governments around the world don't have any other options, right?

There is genuine significance in so many countries recognizing Palestine.

That has drastically changed.

But what's depressing is that the levels of violence, October 7 included, are just so far off the charts.

People who are unfamiliar with the conflict, this level of violence and destruction and antipathy, and derision and just complete hatred, I will call it complete hatred.

I think that is new.

I think that is genuinely, fundamentally different to what the conflict's been like in the past.

And I feel like the statehood debate and the Palestinian recognition of a Palestinian state, that belongs like back in the 90s and the early 2000s.

It's sort of something belated that people have done.

They're going, oh, wow, this is actually really serious and really going to a bad place.

Let's try statehood.

I don't know if anyone actually expects it to change the outcome.

An outcome that we have had, though, over the last few hours is that any chance of a meeting with Donald Trump, draw a line through it.

I mean, it's the thing that I think everyone will be glad when this meeting happens, won't they?

So we can stop talking about when will these two leaders meet.

As much as Australia will say there was no meeting locked in, of course they wanted to get this done and over with.

Donald Trump's going to spend about 24 hours in New York.

He's going to do a series of sit-downs.

He'll meet with the EU.

He'll meet with Vladimir Zelensky.

He's going to meet with some of the leaders from the biggest Muslim and Arab nations to try and have a conversation about ways in which a two-state solution and peace in the Middle East could be implemented.

But one person he won't be sitting down with is Anthony Albanese.

What do you reckon?

Is it grin and grip?

A meeting?

Is it an interaction?

How are you going to define it?

We had a text competition this morning.

Like, what's Anthony Albanese's first line?

He's got 30 seconds, right?

He's got a glass of champas.

Trump's got a glass of champagne.

He gets 30 seconds.

He's in a queue with the other world leaders.

What's the first line?

What's the one thing he has to say?

A few people said,

you know, Albo should say, does your diary manager have an optus phone?

Is that the reason that we can't get through?

You know, there were lines like that, which are very entertaining, even though, of course, the tragic events of last week.

I will throw it back to you, Brett, because we talk a lot about if the meeting is going to happen.

How important is the meeting?

Like, genuinely, Jacob made a great point yesterday about, I think it was Japan and India.

They've had meetings.

They got smashed with big tariffs.

Genuinely, you know, as someone who watches politics, how

important is a face-to-face meeting between those two?

Well, two things can absolutely be true at the same time.

So it can both be totally fine from a, say, government perspective about, okay, the government's getting reassurances about AUKUS.

And if that is the kind of biggest concern about whether or not Donald Trump is going to support AUKUS, they think that the tea leaves are suggesting that will be fine.

If you're then staying out of Donald Trump's eyesight and there's no clear grievance, then maybe not meeting with Donald Trump is totally fine.

But at a raw political level, if this is Australia's greatest security ally, you need to sit down with that figure.

And the coalition will not take this, you know, meeting on the sides of a summit.

They don't even care that the two might meet, say, at an ASEAN or an APEC summit next month.

They think Anthony Albanese needs to be getting to America and sitting down with Donald Trump in the Oval Office.

And of course they would, because

selfishly, they'd love to see the kind of scenes that they saw play out earlier this year with other world leaders.

But it is an awkward thing that the Prime Minister, sure, he's sick of getting the question, but he'll keep getting the question.

And if all the things that people say about Donald Trump are true, a transactional president, a person that likes backing in winners, if Anthony Albanese can find a way to get with Donald Trump and at least get a tick in the good books, then I imagine the coalition might be suddenly wishing that he didn't meet with Anthony Albanese because all of a sudden that great criticism that you're levelling, you know, Susan Lee, I have to come out and speak to these Republicans because there's a drift.

Australia is no longer closely tethered to the United States.

It's our closest security ally.

Those two things can both be true at the same time.

And you just get a sense that the Prime Minister would want it done.

And he wants it in the rear vision mirror instead of having to constantly be asked about it.

I think he definitely wants it done.

I think you're right.

Two things can be true.

I also think, I mean, what the government says to you privately is really disturbing.

I'll make one of those private conversations public.

Hey, here we go.

Donald Trump and his Health and Human Services Secretary, RFK, you know, what they said about women taking paracetamol when they're pregnant and how that leads to autism, which is fundamentally, factually not true.

Paul Kelly, I don't know if you remember the former chief medical officer, Paul Kelly, he joined me on the radio to talk about that.

He said this is part of an anti-science campaign and an anti-expert crusade.

health system, the vaccines we take, what our doctors say to you when you go and ask them about a vaccine, that rests on a whole lot of medical architecture in the United States.

Their drug regulator, our drug regulator listens to their drug regulator, our vaccine approvers listen to their vaccine approvers.

If our medical system and our military system relies on the United States, but the United States looks unreliable, then the meeting becomes the least important aspect of that relationship.

You're right.

On a political level, he's going to keep on getting the question.

In fact, I blame you because you coaxed Patricia Carvellis into asking Anthony Alvinese that question so we can all.

PK's got full agency to do whatever she wants.

She'd like to make you happy.

But I do think those fundamental questions, I just think

it makes the meeting even less consequential in answering the big questions.

But you're right.

I think he's also a little bit afraid of that meeting.

I think every world leader is afraid of that meeting.

It's a genuinely terrifying proposition because you don't know what comes next.

I just wonder if you go to the cocktail function with a Diet Coke in one hand and a cheeseburger in the other and just try and lure him over in that way, get a happy smiling photo.

Job done.

I'm off to Europe.

I'm off to Europe.

It'll help.

Getting the photo will help.

A few of my listeners actually said what he needs to do is broaden his accent, the Prime Minister, and then run all the words together.

So just go, hang on, hang on, mate, how's things?

And just sort of talk in that Australian accent a way that actually no one who's not from here even begins to understand what he's saying.

And then Donald Trump Trump will only smile and nod because he won't actually understand a single word the PM's saying.

Just get that big pearly green photo.

Or it could just say nice hair.

Maybe.

Something that is never said in your direction or my direction.

And aren't we envious for it?

Before we finish up, we really just need to check in with Optus.

I know this is something you've been keeping a close eye on, but since yesterday's podcast, we saw that the extent to which this Optus outage is even further than it was.

So a further seven calls identified in the early hours or in the early hour of Thursday morning where they were able to do some welfare checks, but still four people that were unable to be contacted and SA and WA police were having to be called in to go and do those welfare checks.

We have seen the Greens call for this and the opposition call for the head of Optus to go.

To what extent do you think this is an issue that is actually one that the broader public is paying attention to?

I don't want to beat my own drum, but I will.

I have been saying for years,

we are going to get to a situation where there's a major bushfire.

And this happened on Black Saturday, right?

John Fane's in the chair on a Saturday night.

This happens.

People ring up and say, hey, ABC, my life is being threatened.

What can we do?

I am genuinely terrified that 000 is going to go down in the middle of a really urgent natural disaster.

I have been and my ABC colleagues have been asking question after question, what happens when the phone tower goes down?

What generators are there in the phone towers?

What batteries are there in the phone towers?

What happens if a whole lot of Vodafone goes down?

Can Telstra allow those calls to piggyback on top of their, you know, on top of their services?

Telstra says no, you can't just send a whole lot of phones onto their already packed phone towers.

These are brutally important questions.

I fear that calling for the resignation of the Optus CEO, it's totally understandable.

And if people have died, like I get it, it's not going to solve a single problem.

There's something that has only barely been mentioned.

I'm frustrated the communications minister's gone to New York to talk about the social media ban.

We knew from a previous Optus and Telstra outage, one at the end of 23, one in March of 24, we are supposed to have someone who looks after triple zero.

There's something called a triple zero custodian.

Labor's been there for enough time to know that this is something they should have established.

You just need someone in government who is a custodian for all of the different ways the triple zero system bolts together, we do not have that person.

We didn't have that person after people died at the last Optus outage.

We got that recommendation after somebody died during the last Telstra outage.

We still don't have a triple zero custodian.

Every journalist, if I had my wish in Canberra, would be asking every government frontbencher, when is the triple zero custodian coming?

Because it's not a must have sorry, it's not a nice to have, it is a must have.

So I get the thing, I get the calls about the ceo of optus that's really important but the government's known for some time there's a systemic problem and they haven't taken the step to make sure there's a tough cop on the beat with a big stick blah blah whatever that rhetoric is supposed to be they've known about the problem they haven't done it i don't know but you tell me why there isn't that focus given we've had these problems in the past i think that the person who is more acutely aware of this than probably anyone else who sits on the labor front bench is christy mcbain someone who was the mayor of Biger when

Black Summer bushfires hit, someone who ended up in the federal parliament because of the leadership role that she played in responding to that.

But it was only a couple of years ago in an electorate that is prone for bushfires.

Telstra loses a tower in the storm.

I was down there at New Year's.

You could not get any reception at all.

So how on earth you got an emergency call out in that period is beyond me.

And I think that is something that she lives and breathes day in, day out.

What ability will she have to kind of get that message clearly in the minds of the federal government to drive for this change?

We know that the government's plans to have technology that could override, if you didn't even have reception, to get an alert onto your phone is not coming for years.

That's not, you know, they were hoping that would be rolled out quite promptly.

Yes, the government has a whopping majority and it's able to pass a lot of legislation, but it will ultimately be held to account by the public for issues like this, issues that go into people's livelihoods.

If you can't be confident that you pick up your phone and call 000 and that call is going to be connected through to police, ambulance, firefighting, whatever you need, then that undermines confidence in the government writ large, doesn't it?

I think it does.

And it is an issue I know ABC audiences.

care passionately about.

They understand it deeply.

They don't understand why there hasn't been a government focus.

It is as important as how expensive the shopping is and how expensive my electricity bill is.

It is a 100% retail political issue and it's one of those things I think that gets lost in the political machinations in Canberra.

I interviewed the then Communications Minister Michelle Rowland after the Telstra outage.

We've got the review, we understand what needs to be done, it's going to be done.

It wasn't done.

That doesn't mean last week doesn't happen.

Optus clearly failed across a number of areas and that's all going to be investigated.

But there wasn't someone keeping an eye on it.

The phone companies need to be petrified that someone's going to swoop in and have a look at their system at random and check this thing is working.

Until they are worried about that, until they're worried about losing their license to operate as a phone company, it won't change.

And I'm just waiting for the day when an ABC switchboard gets flooded with people saying, I can't get through to triple zero, my life is in danger.

I hope that never happens.

I fear that it might happen.

I think the government, they've got to give this more attention than they gave it in the last term.

They just have to.

Was it a a mistake Annika was going to the US, given the PM was referring questions essentially to her when he was asked about this in New York?

Oh, that's hard.

I mean, I'm a big believer in Australia doing things.

I'm hoping a government can both chew gum and walk at the same time.

I'm hoping a communications minister has this land on her desk, realises how important it is, can enact serious change while also going over to sprig something like the social media ban that I've got a lot of questions about, but there is no doubt it has major, major support, bipartisan support, voter support in this country.

So

I want my governments to be able to do many things at once.

Am I naive and idealistic, Brett?

You and everyone else, ability to walk and chew gum at the same time.

And look, I'm pretty clumsy at times, so I'm not sure I'm in any position to offer a commentary on my...

I could once, once upon a time, I could both juggle and ride a unicycle.

at the same time.

That was my year 12.

Yes, that was my year 12 study break trick I achieved it at the end of my year 12 in 1988.

I could ride a unicycle and juggle and that was my 10-minute study break while I was doing my year 12 exams.

I've seen your social media videos doing a headstand.

I think that the social media producers of Radio Melbourne have now got a new task in front of them.

I was a younger man.

Coming to Instagram accounts across this country.

I'll do that when you do your cooking channel.

Hey, I'll sign up to that because that'll be so much easier than your tasks.

Raph, a real treat getting to chat with you.

Always good to chat, Brett.

Speak soon.

And tomorrow, David Spears will join us live from New York.

If you have a question, please send a short voice note to the partyroom at abc.net.au and Mel Clark and I will answer it for you when we bring you the party room on Thursday.

See you, Raph.

Bye, Brett.