Is Labor ‘taking the piss’ on integrity?

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Speaker 2 The Albanese government came to power promising to increase transparency and integrity in politics.

Speaker 2 But a new report card shows Labour is failing on six out of seven fronts, including on jobs for mates, lobbying and secrecy.

Speaker 2 It follows earlier findings that secrecy under the Albanese government was worse than during the Morrison years.

Speaker 2 So, while independents continue to push the government for greater transparency measures, will the report actually force Labor to act? Welcome to Politics Now.

Speaker 2 Hi, I'm Patricia Carvelis.

Speaker 1 And I'm David Spears.

Speaker 2 And David, it's an interesting choice we've made, right, to start on this theme of transparency. There's a lot happening in the Parliament.

Speaker 2 We're going to get in a moment to, you know, bailouts for aluminium smelters and some big ticket items for jobs.

Speaker 2 But I do think this is becoming an issue for Labour because we've talked about it before, this theme that they kind of are taking, can I say it? Maybe the piss a little of the public on these issues.

Speaker 2 So the report is from the Independent Centre for Public Integrity.

Speaker 2 It's kind of packed with judges, eminent voices. And it says the government has failed six out of seven fields, as I say.
Like it's quite significant in its findings.

Speaker 1 Worse than the Morrison government. Ouch.
Right. That one's going to hurt.

Speaker 1 Look, so yeah, Centre for Public Integrity.

Speaker 1 These are the folks who pushed really hard to see the National Anti-Corruption Commission, the NAC, set up, and now they've sort of taken on the job of being a...

Speaker 1 I guess a watchdog in matters of integrity. And as you say, former eminent judges and corruption busters make up the Centre for Public Integrity.

Speaker 1 Looking through their report, yeah, look, they do raise some issues. And

Speaker 1 I guess this was always the risk for a government winning big.

Speaker 1 And it is a risk when governments have such a commanding position, not just in terms of the number of seats they have in the parliament, 94 in case you've forgotten,

Speaker 1 keep telling you, but also the political strength they have over a demoralised, divided opposition and a Greens party that's also still, I think, trying to find

Speaker 1 the best approach to cooperating or not with the government. So the risk is always that that arrogance creeps in, that the transparency starts to clam up, that you do start to see these problems.

Speaker 1 So I think it is worth noting what the centre has found. And it goes through, as you say, a whole list of areas, just leafing through it now, commitment to transparency.

Speaker 1 It talks about leaning into a culture of secrecy, the government, and particularly those changes to freedom of information laws that it's pursuing, that the Centre's most worried about.

Speaker 1 More jobs for mates. And it points specifically to the Prime Minister's National Security Advisor just being appointed to head the Office of National National Intelligence as an example of that.

Speaker 1 Failing to rein in the power of lobbyists, it would like to see, as many of us would, I suppose, more transparency around who's trawling through this building, who ministers are meeting with, who Prime Ministers are meeting with, and how many of them just happen to be former staffers, or indeed former caucus members.

Speaker 1 We're now lobbyists.

Speaker 1 Supporting Parliament in accountability function, it talks about cutting support for those who hold the government to account. That's the staff cuts that the crossbench copped after the election.

Speaker 1 That's not helping with scrutiny and transparency.

Speaker 1 And supporting an independent public service, it still wants the government to do more when it comes to adopting recommendations from the Fody report when it comes to having a frank and fearless public service able to provide advice.

Speaker 1 So it's quite a detailed report, and it's not just one or two issues there that it's raised, PK.

Speaker 2 No, and when you made the point about government's

Speaker 2 majority complacency, all of that I think is right. Like that's the overall theme.

Speaker 2 But I do think, you know, to be a bit critical of the Prime Minister, because I will be here, I think that's one of his Achilles heels.

Speaker 2 He just thinks, ah, this is all just media stories, don't worry about it. He kind of tells people, I know this, because

Speaker 2 people have told me, so that is like, this is all a bit of fluff. I think that's dangerous.

Speaker 2 I think not only is it just wrong not to be transparent because just on the principle it's wrong, but also it's silly to think that these images don't become self-fulfilling, if you like, like that that it doesn't kind of become entrenched in the public's mind and it does do you later damage, even though right now, absolutely, I can see very little pressure on the government.

Speaker 2 The opposition is a S show, seriously. Like it's true, you know, there's no pressure on them, but that doesn't mean it won't creep up.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and there was a, there was just an example of this on Sunday morning. The PM was doing the rounds of breakfast TV before departing Uluru for the ASEAN summit.

Speaker 1 And, you know, the Kevin Rudd story was still bubbling around after Donald Trump had made some further comments that I don't forget. And the PM, clearly frustrated, this story.

Speaker 1 He was still kicking around when he'd had such a successful meeting with the US President.

Speaker 1 Referred to, he had a crack at the journalist over in Washington, Michael Cozziol, who'd asked the president about it, and he referred to fake media. I just think some of that language is problematic.

Speaker 1 However, I would, you know, to be fair, it is worth noting that the Prime Minister does, you know, yes, he's not here in Parliament this week, but he regularly is.

Speaker 1 He fronts up regularly for media interviews. He does hold press conferences.
I do think, you know, you've got to acknowledge the transparency that's there.

Speaker 1 But it's just, you know, the government needs to be aware of these things, that transparency really matters.

Speaker 1 You know, if we want to protect our democracy, we've got to maintain the institutions that uphold it. And it's not just an election every three years.

Speaker 1 You know, the media, parliament, the courts, all of these are critical to our democracy.

Speaker 2 I think that's really well put, you know, to be fair. I agree.
I do think he makes himself available and is

Speaker 2 accountable.

Speaker 2 And that does matter because not all have been. No.
Right. And there are some, let me tell you, and I've had it in the past.
I'm not going to name people. I'm not in the mood.

Speaker 2 I have been in the mood before, but I'm not in the mood today who, you know, you ask them some tough questions and hold it against you for another 10 years.

Speaker 1 You put it in the freezer. Don't you recognize?

Speaker 2 Yeah, absolutely. He doesn't do that.
He gets annoyed for a little while. Like, it's fine.
We all have feelings. But, you know, I've had tussles with him.
Just Google it.

Speaker 2 And then, you know, he moves on.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he's not a political leader who will then ice you out and not come on for anything.

Speaker 2 So that's him as an individual. But I think going back to this report before we get into the aluminium stuff,

Speaker 2 it's more structural, some of this stuff as well, that they're critiquing. It's not just, you know,

Speaker 2 he might be on his own playing this particular role, but there are sort of deeper issues.

Speaker 1 Those FOI changes, for example,

Speaker 1 there's legitimate concern around this.

Speaker 1 Look, the government's line on that, for those who've followed it or haven't followed it, is that there are all these AI bots making frivolous FOI claims, clogging up the system.

Speaker 1 Sure, something would need to be done about that.

Speaker 1 But the idea that you're going to make it harder for genuine inquiries of government information is something to be concerned about.

Speaker 2 Now, the other big thing that's happening, and it's sort of breaking today, but I think it'll go for some time, is Australia's largest aluminium smelter, Tomago, is facing closure.

Speaker 2 A couple of reasons. High energy costs is one of them, but there are other reasons too.
They've started talks with 500 staff on their future.

Speaker 2 The majority owner is Rio Rio Tinto, and

Speaker 2 their statement is that they've reached a difficult point. This is a really

Speaker 2 interesting story on a number of fronts, and I'll explain. The federal government, the Albanese government, has been pretty smart, I think, about playing the politics of where about jobs.

Speaker 2 You know, look at how much the world's changed, David. We've talked about this.
We're talking, everyone, there's a very protectionist element. Look at the Trump administration.

Speaker 2 We're doing our version, but that means Labor wants to still be identified with the blue collar.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we can talk about demographic shifts and who votes for them, but they want to be the blue collar party. And so they want to look like they step in and they help when this happens.

Speaker 2 But they're actually hitting some roadblocks on this, aren't they?

Speaker 1 Yeah, this one's a really interesting one, I think. Now, to be clear, Tomago Aluminium is still weighing up what to do, which always sounds like...
They're up for a negotiation.

Speaker 1 It means that they're only trying to shut down the...

Speaker 2 Yeah, they've got a hat and they're walking around for money to be put in in it, right?

Speaker 1 That's what it is. They're putting up in lights that this could happen.

Speaker 1 They basically operate Tomago with a special energy contract, and that currently is with AGL Energy and is due to run out in December 2028.

Speaker 1 So it's a few years from now, but they're looking around at future contracts and can't find anything that's going to be... workable for them.

Speaker 1 And clearly they want it to be, I assume they want it to be, a clean energy contract because we're moving out of coal and Rio Tinto, the majority owner, I think has made it pretty clear that as a company,

Speaker 1 they

Speaker 1 want all of their smelters to be run by clean energy post 2030. So that would be their preference, but they can't find cheap enough renewable supply.
So this goes right into the energy debate.

Speaker 1 I would fall over if this doesn't come up in question time this afternoon. We're recording this on lunchtime.
I want to fall over.

Speaker 2 I don't want you to fall over.

Speaker 1 You would expect the coalition goes there because this for them is all about energy and the fact that energy prices still haven't come down.

Speaker 1 You might recall, PK, that the government once upon a time promised they would. So when's that going to happen and are we going to lose a smelter here?

Speaker 1 That's all very interesting.

Speaker 1 I don't know if the alternatives, the coalition, if they do have an alternative on energy on net zero, all these things is going to produce somehow magically cheaper energy than where we're currently headed, but park that for one moment.

Speaker 1 Tomago, as you say, is the biggest aluminium smelter. It's the largest energy user in Australia, largest single energy user in Australia.

Speaker 1 So how does it find a way through this and what role is there for government in this?

Speaker 1 The government has been on a bit of a spree bailing out or investing in or providing support to the Mount Isa copper smelter, 600 million bucks, the Nearstar lead and zinc smelters, 135 million, $2.4 billion of course for the wireless steel works in South Australia.

Speaker 1 You know, you can make, the government's got to make the case that these are, there's a national interest reason to do this. Is there with aluminium? We've got four smelters.
This is the big one.

Speaker 1 You can get aluminium from a lot of places.

Speaker 1 China doesn't have, it's the biggest exporter of aluminium, but its market share, I just looked it up, is around 15, 16%. It's not like the critical minerals where it controls 90% of the processing.

Speaker 1 You can get aluminium from other places. Is this something government should be doing?

Speaker 2 Well, that goes to the existential question of government, really, and what you stand for.

Speaker 2 you know, you're basically making the case or sort of making the point rather that government should step in when there is also a national interest proposition.

Speaker 2 You know, there is a threat from China, there is, and that in this case there isn't.

Speaker 1 China is manipulating the market, therefore we need to work with the US to set up rare earths supply. That's the argument there.
You kind of understand that.

Speaker 2 You do, but I suppose for Labour,

Speaker 2 they're not just about that. That gives them a better selling point when that exists.
I think you're right.

Speaker 2 Critical minerals, you see the coalition sort of saying yes essentially to that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, great idea. Right?

Speaker 2 But they also claim to be the party, as I say, of the blue collar and jobs, and they don't want jobs to be going while they're in charge.

Speaker 1 No, they don't.

Speaker 2 That's really at the heart of it. And that goes to a broader narrative.
And Albanese, out of everyone in the party, is so alert to that. Let's, you know, history matters in this podcast.

Speaker 2 Don't forget the two messages being sold on a Darne by Bill Shorten that did him massive damage in Queensland. Do you remember in that election? Where, you know,

Speaker 2 the message to the inner city and and then the message and that that gets muddied. Albanese doesn't do that as much.

Speaker 2 He's actually got a more unified message, which is just to the working class, I would say. I think he plays it differently and that's where it comes to bank rolling jobs.

Speaker 1 Yes, but there's got to be a point at which

Speaker 1 where's the line with bank rolling jobs? I couldn't agree more personally. Small and mid-sized businesses who hit the wall, where's their government lifeline?

Speaker 1 What's the national interest case for protecting this aluminium smelter? Now, clearly the government argues there is that we need to have aluminium manufacturing in Australia for all sorts of reasons.

Speaker 1 It has, I understand it, made an offer to Rio Tinto, the majority owner here, that was rejected.

Speaker 2 Well, this is the thing in the government's line is, you know, privately they've kind of been briefing, well, we're pretty disappointed with the way that they've, you know, handled this. You know,

Speaker 2 they were the ones that extended the hand. So there's a bit of a stouch going on, right?

Speaker 1 And we don't know the details of that, the money, but also what strings might have been attached, what sort of commitments, because the government needs commitments, right?

Speaker 1 If they're coughing up our money, what are they getting? How long would the company agree to keep running for? What would be the employment condition? All of that

Speaker 1 is important.

Speaker 1 So yeah, look, it's a really interesting one. I'll be fascinated to see where this goes.
It's such a big energy user. Again, it comes back to this energy debate.
And you can see

Speaker 1 the attack line coming from the coalition, that all this promise of clean energy being the future,

Speaker 1 we're moving, trying to speed up this transition and our big smelters are hitting the wall. So where's the cheap clean energy post-2030 for someone for an aluminium smelter in Australia?

Speaker 2 And this is in a key seat for the government, too. Obviously, they've got 94 at the moment, so I'm sure they're not overwhelmingly sweating it.
But with an eye to reality,

Speaker 2 sometimes things get pulled back in the next election cycle. I think they would be well aware that

Speaker 1 Hunter is a region.

Speaker 2 They need to look after it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we're paid to be professional cynics here, PK. And we certainly are.
Wyala, of course,

Speaker 1 was looked at through that lens. And I think this one has to be as well.
You know, you're talking of the seats of Shortland, Paterson, Hunter.

Speaker 1 They're in the Hunter Valley that absolutely would be very keen to see this smelter continue.

Speaker 2 Just finally, if we can, the triple zero issue that emerged actually while I was away,

Speaker 2 and that's been a huge real scandal for Optus, but it's been very much at the kind of hands of the government as well for not acting sooner on some of these reforms.

Speaker 2 So there's a debate on the bill to create a triple zero custodian that's continuing in the Senate.

Speaker 2 The government's kind of trying to demonstrate today that it's taking it seriously and it's muscling up on this.

Speaker 2 I know that the Greens are now calling for a quick inquiry to sort of haul in these bosses, I think, Monday morning.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and I think there's real merit in this. And I think by the time you listen to this podcast, that Senate inquiry might well be set up.

Speaker 1 The Greens and the Coalition, not normally bedfellows on many things, but they're both keen for a Senate inquiry. Labor, as we understand it,

Speaker 1 is saying that it won't stand in the way of this either. Yes, there are various inquiries, ACMA inquiry, independent inquiry into what went wrong at Optus.

Speaker 1 But I think a Senate inquiry, the benefit here would be to put some of those Optus executives, including the chief executive, I assume, in the dock publicly so we can all see them being grilled by the senators, which won't be a fun experience for Optus, but given what's happened, I don't think anyone would have any sympathy.

Speaker 1 The government, meanwhile.

Speaker 2 I'm not worried about how much fun they have.

Speaker 1 And for the government's point of view, they've been keen keen to say this is Optus's fault. Oh, yeah.
It's not our fault.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so it can be to their advantage.

Speaker 1 I think.

Speaker 1 This is a corporate that's messed up

Speaker 2 because actually it's been difficult for Annika Wells as the new minister, a bit of a baptism of fire, right? Sure. You know, I was watching that from Europe.

Speaker 1 I was like, ooh, this is

Speaker 2 hot seat.

Speaker 1 And she had a couple of

Speaker 1 moments, but then I think some stronger moments in the parliament as well. And look, it is Optus's fault here.
They do need to answer some questions.

Speaker 1 The first couple of days they were out and about, but we haven't heard much since. So it would be, you know, there's a lot of merit in having this sort of inquiry.

Speaker 1 Meanwhile, the government's setting up this custodian. Look, it's already been there within the department, but this is now to give it the greater strength the legislation is required for.

Speaker 1 I don't think there'll be any trouble getting that legislation through.

Speaker 1 Any sort of tougher action and public reporting from all the telcos on how many faults and when they happen and how bad they are with triple zero is important for all of us to see because yeah there were some devastating consequences of what happened with that most recent one at OPPIS and you know, if anything can be done to fix it, it needs to be done.

Speaker 2 It's a fundamental, you know, human right of Australians to be able to call for help and not have that impeded. Absolutely.
David, just final thought from you, you know, question without notice.

Speaker 2 Question time's a bit lackluster. I think, you know, look, whatever you think of the Prime Minister, I reckon he's a bit missed this week.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the temperature comes down whenever the PM's not there. It doesn't matter which PM we're talking about.

Speaker 2 But I'm feeling it. Like I came to question time yesterday and thank God I was having a yak with Phil Currie about his renovations because seriously now people know what we really do.

Speaker 2 I was like, I'm going to be put into a coma. Well, lucky, your shed looks good.

Speaker 1 Yeah, look, the PM is the main player and the main game and certainly front and centre in question time. So whenever they're not there, yeah, you do notice it.
You do, you do.

Speaker 1 Maybe things will pick up.

Speaker 2 Look, David, I'd missed you while I was gallivanting. Great to see you back here in beautiful Canberra.
Love being here. And that's it for politics now.

Speaker 2 Tomorrow, Anthony Green joins me for a deep dive into One Nation. We're going to look at the minor party's rise in the 90s and the challenges it presented for the coalition then.

Speaker 2 And now he says there are lots of lessons from history to be looked at in terms of, you know, they're polling at the high watermark. So we'll look into that.
Of course, Thursday it's the party room.

Speaker 2 You send questions to the partyroom at abc.net.au. Mel will be with me.
See you, David.

Speaker 1 See you, PK.