Barnaby to defect and enviro laws to pass

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Speaker 2 Today the Australian people have voted for Australian values.

Speaker 6 Government is always formed in a sensible centre, but our Liberal Party reflects a range of views.

Speaker 5 Politics is the brutal game of arithmetic, but no one's going to vote for you who don't stand for something.

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Speaker 2 Hello and welcome to the party room. I'm Patricia Carvellis joining you from Ngunnawal Country in our Parliament House studio.

Speaker 8 And I'm Frank Kelly on the Gadigwa Land of the Orination in Sydney wishing desperately I was there with you on Ngunnawal Country in Canberra.

Speaker 8 where it's all happening this week, the final sitting week of the year, PK.

Speaker 8 I know without being there that it would be mad down there at the moment.

Speaker 8 I know the coffee lines at Aussie would be just full tilt the whole time and you know this morning we record this on a Thursday morning, blasting off very early with a prime ministerial press conference because PK,

Speaker 8 we have a deal. It's a big win for the government, huge win.

Speaker 2 And in fact, you know, I will eat humble pie for all of the Labour people listening who I was like, how can you declare that you're definitely going to get this passed by the end of the week?

Speaker 2 Oh, we know, they said, we know. And I was like, you don't have the numbers yet.
Well, guess what? They got them.

Speaker 9 Today I can announce our government's landmark environmental law reforms will pass the parliament today, heralding a new era for the environment and productivity in Australia.

Speaker 2 And they got a deal with the Greens, which I think is extraordinary. So as we record Thursday morning, the Prime Minister stood up.

Speaker 2 He stood up really early, efficiently for our pod, 8am in the morning to say the deal had been done. We're going to look at what came out of it and the concessions.

Speaker 2 And also, to me, I want to explore in a moment just the significance of the way the Prime Minister framed the deal with the Greens, the positive language he used about the Greens, which I consider to be quite significant in its pivot from his usual sledgehammer approach to the Greens and his fight on the left.

Speaker 2 But he's got to deal with the Greens. They have given in on some things, and so has the government.
Is it good for the environment? We'll explore it in a minute.

Speaker 2 At the same time, this week, just to run through some of the things we're going to explore in the pod, Labor, the better economic manager, according to the Australian Electoral Study, which is, well, wild

Speaker 2 history and the way Labour is regarded in relation to, you know, big spending. So what has gone wrong for the coalition is the big question there, and how are they seeking to fix it? And then, oh.

Speaker 2 Some tricky economic news. So the government flagging public service reprioritisations.
I call them cuts. They say they're not.
But, you know,

Speaker 2 I know sort of slippery government language when I see it. At the same time, inflation rising to 3.8%, incredibly close to tipping over 4, sorry, but it's closer to the 4% now than any of the...

Speaker 8 It's a bad number for all of us, really.

Speaker 2 It's a bad number to have.

Speaker 2 And clearly, Jim Chalmers knew it. It means no interest rate cut by the end of the year.
I think just probably longer than that.

Speaker 2 And maybe even a hike, which would, of course, completely, I think, change the vibe in the community.

Speaker 2 So we're going to get into all of that, that Fran but there's been other shenanigans too right well Barnaby Barnaby Joyce will he or won't he can he be tempted to join one nation can he be tempted by a wagu beefsteak and a glass of wine PK that is the question which we may find out again as early as today and then if you look at the timing of all of this I mean pretty strange Barnaby Joyce having his uh you know moment of a very bad Greek salad I think they've attempted and some making like the Greek salad was absolutely slaughtered.

Speaker 2 We could not see feta in it. I don't know about you.
Like, do a close-up. I was trying to find the feta.
There's no feta.

Speaker 2 Well, it was in a Queensland electorate office. Well, what are you saying? Lots of Greeks live in Queensland.

Speaker 2 But what I found kind of curious is that that happened right after, like, the day of the Hanson Burker stunt, which led to her being censured for seven days. Like, very interesting.

Speaker 2 So, there's lots to discuss. And I've got the perfect guest here in the studio, waiting patiently to actually give us his hot takes.
Tom McElroy, political editor of The Guardian Australia.

Speaker 2 Welcome back to the party room.

Speaker 1 Thanks, PK. Thanks, Fran.
Great to be with you.

Speaker 2 Did you like our kind of wrap of...

Speaker 1 Yeah, that was a solid around the grounds of the last crazy week of Souls.

Speaker 2 It's passouts.

Speaker 2 Last day of term. I know.

Speaker 2 It's very end of school sort of like school camp. You know, everyone's lost it at the end.
The teachers are losing it. I don't know, Fran, you say you were jealous not to be here.
I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 I think you would have just been

Speaker 2 I love those things. What's wrong with these people?

Speaker 8 I've seen a lot of these weeks. They're usually messy and a little bit crazy.
But Tom, I mean, really, what a Christmas present for the PM overnight from the Greens.

Speaker 8 It's five years in the making, these laws. Now, I know you're all over this.
Can we go to it? Tell us how it washed up.

Speaker 8 Will Australia, by the end of today, have a fit-for-purpose set of environmental protection laws?

Speaker 8 And has the government managed to get the balance between business and the environment that, you know, really has been bedeviling these negotiations around this for, well, at least four years now.

Speaker 8 This is, you know, quite a feat if the government pulls it off. How much has the government given? And how do these laws, you know, how do these laws look to you who've been looking closely at it?

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's quite an achievement for the last sitting day of the year. Obviously, this time last year, Labor pulled the bill at the last minute over political concerns.
It looks like the legislation...

Speaker 8 Which was a really tough thing that the Prime Minister did to Tanya Plebesek, who was the environment minister at the time, wasn't it?

Speaker 8 I mean, she thought she'd got close to the deal, and the PM stepped in and said, uh-uh, we're not doing this with the Greens. So here we are.
What a difference a year makes.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. The politics have completely changed with the election in the rearview mirror now.
The laws look set to pass Parliament today.

Speaker 1 There'll be a guillotine motion in the Senate this afternoon, so potentially they could go through tonight or at least through the House first thing tomorrow morning if absolutely necessary.

Speaker 1 Either way, Australia is going to have the first major update to the environmental laws, to all of the biodiversity and environmental protection laws in a long time.

Speaker 1 We'll have an environmental protection agency established for the first time, new clear and tough environmental standards introduced into the law, streamline approval processes for major developments.

Speaker 1 That's something that business has been pushing for for a long time.

Speaker 1 tougher penalties for people who are breaking the law and significantly today and this seems to be the major carve-out in the negotiations with the Greens, exemptions that have existed for a long time for forestry projects will be removed from the laws.

Speaker 8 In 18 months, right?

Speaker 1 In 18 months, that's right. The PM went to some lengths to explain that there'll be a $300 million assistance package, but the Greens are really happy.

Speaker 1 They say that it means that native forest logging will essentially be on notice in Australia, will be phased out, that

Speaker 1 we will instead rely on plantation plantation forests, and they see that as a major, major win.

Speaker 1 I think it's politically some tough negotiations that have come good for Murray Watt, the environment minister.

Speaker 1 The PM got involved at the end and got the deal over the line with the Greens leader, Larissa Waters. And significantly, the coalition have dealt themselves out here.

Speaker 1 Business put a lot of pressure on Susan Lee, on Angie Bell, the shadow minister, to get a deal done, something that worked for business.

Speaker 1 They were eager for the Greens not to be able to push this too far towards the

Speaker 1 side of the environment. Instead, the deal's done with the Greens and the coalition are left out of the negotiations.

Speaker 8 You know what? A week ago I don't think, in fact, I think we said we didn't really expect this to be a deal done with the Greens.

Speaker 8 The Treasurer, Jim Chalmers, stood up and basically said outright the government wanted to do the deal with the coalition. As PK said, we know Anthony Albanese is not a lover of the Greens.

Speaker 8 It's a deep and long-held antipathy.

Speaker 8 Very personal and goes right to the electoral battle he has in his electorate every single election. That's part of it.

Speaker 8 Now, yet here we are, the PM going out of his way to not just meet, you know, through the night with the Greens leader Larissa Waters and Senator Hanson-Young, but to thank them for their good faith in these negotiations.

Speaker 8 The whole tone was very positive.

Speaker 8 I mean, my take on this is that both the government and the Greens saw an electoral advantage for them or a disadvantage for doing this or a disadvantage if they didn't do it you know because the government you know needs some green credentials let's face it straight out of the election they passed that massive they approved that massive northwest shelf gas project which the green movement was absolutely up in arms with many within Labor's caucus many of the new young MPs very unhappy with

Speaker 8 and so they had a problem there and the greens you know have have to learn the lesson from that terrible result at the last election when their their own leader was voted out.

Speaker 8 The voters punished them because, in part, their hard-line focus on everything but the environment.

Speaker 8 So was it the real politic for both of these parties, these unlikely dance parties, that made them come together here?

Speaker 1 I think that's right. I think both sides knew that a deal was in their interests, as you say, Fran.
They both had to compromise on some of their higher level demands.

Speaker 1 The Greens this morning say that they're disappointed with some of the progress, but these are steps forward. They also said today that they consider themselves the real opposition.

Speaker 2 I think that's significant isn't it?

Speaker 2 Well I think it was good language from them right? Yeah yeah please explore it because I think it was like I thought Larissa Waters was in irrelevant today.

Speaker 1 Yeah you see the difference in style between her and someone like Adam Bant from the last parliament where there was perhaps a tougher line taken by the Greens less eager to make negotiations less eager to make deals and perhaps to drive tougher bargains.

Speaker 1 She said today that on matters of the environment along with Sarah Hanson-Young the environment spokeswoman, that Labor should be doing deals with the Greens. They want to be part of decision-making.

Speaker 1 She said they should get shit done. I'm not sure if I can say that on an ABC podcast, but I just did.

Speaker 2 She said it, yeah.

Speaker 7 Well, the Greens are determined to get shit done.

Speaker 7 And what we've been able to secure from the government after strong and lengthy negotiations is a package that improves our environmental laws.

Speaker 1 And I think both sides will be happy that they've cleared this hurdle. There are things they can take to their respective bases and say that they've done something major.

Speaker 1 Indeed, Anthony Albanese said that Labor has a good record on the environment, that Labor Party members care deeply about the environment.

Speaker 1 And I think this adds to reforms that we saw in the Hawke Keating years back in the 80s.

Speaker 1 So look, I think both sides can take away some success here.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean she also got a few barbs in though.

Speaker 8 She did say that, you know, that the Greens were incredibly disappointed and Labor's in absolute lockstep with the fossil fuel sector. So

Speaker 8 she's trying to keep up the appearances of the Greens being the pro-environment, pro-climate party.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. They're angry that the government is still going out of its way to facilitate fossil fuel projects in Australia.

Speaker 1 They say that these laws were an opportunity to stop that and that Labor wasn't prepared to do it.

Speaker 1 Of course, the government's view is that those projects keep the lights on and are important to the economy and that careful management of them is the way to do it.

Speaker 1 I think those battle lines will continue probably for a long time. But, you know,

Speaker 1 it's an opportunity for Labor to show off their deal-making abilities and probably this is the kind of negotiations that we'll see a few more times in this parliament on tough stuff.

Speaker 2 Look, I think that the way that everyone's framed around here, I just want to get into the sort of broader ramifications for different political movements.

Speaker 2 I think for the Prime Minister, and we have to give him some credit for this, yes, some people will criticise it's not enough.

Speaker 2 Yes, business will say, oh, the deal with the Greens led to this and we don't like it. Like, I'm just, you know, this is all going to play out.
It always does. This is the way it works.

Speaker 2 But for the Prime Minister to be able to stand up, like to zoom out

Speaker 2 on a Thursday morning and say very confidently, this is a deal done like this and he's got the numbers. is actually a really important victory for him at the end of the year.

Speaker 2 Now, admittedly, he doesn't need overwhelming victories. He's got 94 seats, all the stuff we've said.

Speaker 2 But I think optically to just just go, we, we're like, you know, I'm not going to drag this out is a very important thing for him.

Speaker 2 For the Greens, all of the pragmatism that they probably needed a bit more of, and a bit of a win too, for Larissa Waters to say, hey, you know, I'm relevant here because they took such a hit.

Speaker 2 So let's talk about for the other party because

Speaker 2 the coalition dealt out, right, essentially,

Speaker 2 interesting criticism I want to get you on. And there was one thing that Murray Watts said, and he's been going a bit harder on them.

Speaker 2 He said, you know, they basically said, look, these are our demands, but we'll probably have more or something. Like, just, you know, that it was so badly done.

Speaker 2 And it sort of says something, if it's true, and I'm not going to say it's entirely correct. It's his allegation.

Speaker 8 But Tom, it says something about the kind of

Speaker 2 They're kind of really disorganized, aren't they?

Speaker 1 Yeah, look, it's been an interesting dynamic all week, and I think it goes to exactly what you're talking about.

Speaker 1 Every time there's been negotiations or press conferences, Angie Bell, the environment spokesperson, has stood up for the coalition and standing right next to her is John O'Duniam from Tasmania, whose portfolio is completely removed from this area.

Speaker 1 It gave the impression that the moderates were

Speaker 1 being represented by Angie Bell and that the other part of the party, the Conservatives, were being represented by John O'Duniam.

Speaker 1 It gave the sense that Susan Lee's control of the party room and effort to bring everyone along to make a deal with Labor was difficult and that both factions within the coalition needed representation.

Speaker 1 Of course the spectre of the Nationals was there as well and whether a deal might fall over at the last minute because some of the harder line people didn't want to make environmental concessions with Labor.

Speaker 8 I mean that's the reality though isn't it in their party room.

Speaker 8 They are split and it's another issue that they're split on and that's why really perhaps it was impossible in the end for Angie Bell to make the deal.

Speaker 1 Yeah

Speaker 1 they couldn't overcome overcome those divisions, I think. They couldn't get organised, as PK says, with a final set of demands.

Speaker 1 Murray, what all week has been saying he'll make a deal with either the Greens or the Coalition. It seems like the Greens was the more tenable deal, the more realistic deal.

Speaker 1 And I think the Coalition will have to explain why they weren't prepared to contribute to these changes.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, we know how they'll. In fact, I've just seen a notice because we're obviously not going to be able to tell you everything that's said on a Thursday, but John O'Duniam is about to speak.

Speaker 2 Like, you will get, I can predict the lines, Tom.

Speaker 2 It will be, you know, that the government, you know, is selling out business and, you know, they don't, you know, they're kind of doing a greeny deal, stitch up, ending native forests, I imagine he'll say, and how diabolical that is for Tasmania.

Speaker 2 And Tasmania, remember, like, I hate to nerd out, but I'm going to for you. Tasmania was ridiculously a high point, wasn't it, for Labour at the election?

Speaker 2 That's when we realised this is such an epic swing to the Labor Party, which was weird, like to have that kind of swing to a government the way we saw.

Speaker 2 And so that's what they'll say, whether it kind of like actually penetrates in the community, I doubt it.

Speaker 1 It'll be interesting. I mean, the first principle is that it's not the requirement of the opposition to make deals to pass the government's legislation.

Speaker 1 So we should keep that in mind, that it's not exactly their job to be constantly at the table. However, Susan Lee is the former Environment Minister.

Speaker 1 It was her her who brought on the Samuels review five years ago.

Speaker 1 And the government and business have been urging the coalition to be at the table to represent

Speaker 1 people who have buy-in on these laws through developments and through the operation of the economy. So I think it's important that we hold them to account on that point.

Speaker 1 I'll be interested to see what their criticisms are.

Speaker 1 And if they're realistic, obviously they'll take great, as you say, PK, they'll take great satisfaction from criticising Labor for making a deal with the Greens.

Speaker 1 I bet they call them extremists and all that sort of stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 8 Yeah, and I mean, this split within the coalition is written large.

Speaker 8 We mentioned Barnaby Joyce at the top of the podcast going to make a decision about whether he's going to join an announcement about whether he's going to join One Nation.

Speaker 8 It's now been confirmed that he's going to stand up in the House of Reps at 1:30 to describe that. So, we're recording this on Thursday morning.
He will make this announcement today.

Speaker 8 I don't think it's any secret what he's going to do. He is expected,

Speaker 8 as the commentary says, to resign from the Nationals and announce his move to One Nation in a 90-second statement. So that's very precise and very short for Barnaby Joyce, I would have said.

Speaker 8 So he's doing this. This is a sign of the splintering within not just the coalition, but within the Nats, Tom.

Speaker 8 How is, why is Barnaby Joyce doing this? And what does that do to the National Party, who have been really signalling loud and clear they don't want him to go.

Speaker 8 But more than that, they've been starting to slag him even his closest ally in the Nats Matt Canavan has made it made it very clear that he's unhappy with his best mate Barnaby Joyce his former boss Barnaby Joyce to about about this decision and he's been pretty tough on him yeah I mean he he said that Barnaby should stay with the Nationals that leaving the party to advance interests through one nation is not in his best interest I think Barnaby Joyce has had a lot of opportunities from the Nationals he's been a former leader he's been a frontbencher twice yeah exactly I think he's got relevance.

Speaker 2 Twice. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I think he's got relevance deprivation syndrome on the backbench. I think he

Speaker 1 sees a better political opportunity with Pauline Hanson. I suspect it won't go well.

Speaker 1 I think the history of One Nation is that it's Pauline Hanson's party and that people with big egos and profiles usually fall out with the leader. I also think it's breaking faith with voters.

Speaker 1 He says he's going to leave, not represent the seat of New England after the next election.

Speaker 1 I think he's elected as a national and I think the the history of people changing parties in Australian politics usually doesn't end well.

Speaker 2 It doesn't end well, I think that's right. But you know, like this is, look, I'm just getting some text messages, for instance, from some right Conservative liberals, from

Speaker 2 just an array of people on the right side of conservative politics, mainstream politics. And they are actually concerned, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2 They're like about this retail politician flipping his name. So they know that.

Speaker 8 The nation which is becoming a significant competitor.

Speaker 2 Yeah, they see him as, you know, like kind of he's had some troubles and people have been concerned about him and he's obviously very disgruntled with his treatment from Little Proud, the Nationals leader, all of that absolutely a factor.

Speaker 2 But they do think he can be a bit of a, if I can use this sort of colloquial term, like a bit of a weapon, right?

Speaker 2 And they are under pressure from One Nation.

Speaker 2 And so it's a real thing, Tom. It's not, you know, sometimes I think as we talk about compulsory voting and we're kind of a bit bit dismissive of why

Speaker 2 the rush is so nervous and it does cannibalise a more centrist vote, but this is a part of that they are losing a cohort of voters and they are worried about it and the Barnaby decision is worrying them.

Speaker 1 Totally. It doesn't look good for Susan Lee that such a high-profile person is defecting.
And I think it speaks to the disintegration of the coalition's vote on the right of Australian politics.

Speaker 1 There's a reason that Pauline Hanson's polling is very high at the moment. She's got four senators in the upper house.

Speaker 1 Adding Barnaby Joyce will bring renewed attention and he has real cut-through here in Canberra,

Speaker 1 maybe even a way that Pauline Hansen herself doesn't. It'll be fascinating to see, but

Speaker 1 I think it's a pretty cynical move.

Speaker 1 I think some in the coalition would prefer Barnaby Joyce to retire and disappear from the scene, but it's not a good sign for them that such a high-profile person is leaving.

Speaker 8 No, not a good sign. And, you know, his colleagues and friends are deeply unhappy with him.
But PK, before we leave Barnaby and all things,

Speaker 2 Barnaby.

Speaker 8 No, or he's certainly never leaving One Nation at the moment. There's more to talk about there.
But just can I segue to the big question of our time?

Speaker 8 I'm wondering where you both sit on sandwich press steaks because, you know, Pauline Hansen told us last week she wanted to cook Barnaby a steak and give him a glass of wine as they discussed his future with One Nation.

Speaker 2 She delivered, but I've got to say it was a little more down market than i was picturing she cooked him a wagyu beef steak all right but in a sandwich press in her office pika you have big feelings i do because i think i think it's a fantastic use of a sandwich press and no i do i'm like i actually really believe that in fact people are very critical of pauline hansen and there are some very good reasons to be right

Speaker 2 like the burker stunt we'll get into in a moment absolutely But that was a good use of a sandwich press, an efficient way to feed yourself and should not be mocked for that.

Speaker 2 And when I saw the snobbery in some of the papers, oh, you know, like she butchered the this.

Speaker 8 It was a waggu beef steak. I mean, I'm not a steak girl, to be honest.
I'm a big steak girl.

Speaker 2 It was a waggu beef. And I will find any way of cooking it in an efficient way.
And I have used the sandwich press to make all sorts of things.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry to disappoint you.

Speaker 1 I love a steak as well. I'm not cooking a wagu steak on a sandwich press.

Speaker 1 I think there are restaurants all around Parliament House and all around Canberra that can cook a steak properly and I would prefer that over cooking it in the office.

Speaker 2 Oh the Canberra bubble.

Speaker 1 Well I think I think cooking a steak is a very delicate task and it requires a bit more finesse than can be achieved through a sandwich press.

Speaker 1 That being said both of these politicians know how to attract attention. They know how to pose for the cameras and make

Speaker 1 good use of the media and I think this was a masterclass in that.

Speaker 1 I must say, Pauline Hanson used to be seen at the King O, the Kingston Hotel not far from Parliament, cooking her own steak on the barbecue at the pub. I think that's a better way.

Speaker 1 I would give my vote to cooking on a barbecue any day over a salad.

Speaker 2 We're going to have to agree to disagree. I think cook it where you find it.

Speaker 8 But also, let's not us fall for these stunts. I mean, yes, there was a video of her cooking in the sandwich press, you know, as Tom says, she knew exactly how that would play in the media.

Speaker 2 Falling for the stunts. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
But

Speaker 8 let's not let it overshadow, I think, a major moment in the Senate this week. In fact, the very same day of the stake debacle or the stake, of the stake sad, I call it that.
Stakegate, exactly.

Speaker 8 And that was Pauline Hanson coming into the Senate again in Dressed in a Burke.

Speaker 10 My position on banning the Burka, and I still stand strong by that.

Speaker 10 If they really believed in what they were saying, they didn't want to ban the Burka, yep, they denied me the right to wear it on the floor of Parliament.

Speaker 8 And, you know, she did this in 2017.

Speaker 2 She,

Speaker 8 you know, that was at the height of really the still really the anti-Muslim sentiment around the world. And now she's done it again.

Speaker 8 I want to ask both of you, I think I know the answer to this, but I want to ask both of you why she did it. Why did she do that now?

Speaker 1 I think she was angry that the Senate had rolled over her push to debate a bill about banning the burqa. They used parliamentary tactics to shut that down at the first opportunity.

Speaker 8 But why is she even talking about that again?

Speaker 1 I think she thinks that it's an issue that has cut through with the type of voters she's trying to attract. I think reheating her stunt from 2017 was pretty cynical.

Speaker 1 I think it shows that the parliament has moved a long way on from that time, and the response from Labor and the Coalition and the crossbench as well was pretty damning.

Speaker 1 It's significant that she's suspended for seven days as well. That doesn't happen very often.
I think it's the first time a seven-day suspension has been handed out since the late 1970s.

Speaker 1 Pauline Hanson likes a stunt, she likes using these kinds of culture war issues to cut through in the media, particularly in the right-wing media.

Speaker 1 I think it's achieved the outcome in that sense, but it was striking seeing people like Penny Wong

Speaker 1 and coalition people with really passionate criticism of these kinds of tactics. Divisive things, misuse of a piece of religious garb.

Speaker 1 I thought it was striking how strong they were in shutting that down.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it looked farcical, right? It was offensive to people of the Islamic faith, but it was like, she looked silly the way she sort of walked. You could see her like legs in her stockings.

Speaker 2 It was like, what

Speaker 2 are you doing? It was ridiculous. But I do think it's interesting that the, let's not, like, I can't believe how big this week has been actually when I'm thinking about it.

Speaker 2 Like the Senate giving her a seven-day censure, including the four days I think it is at the start of next year, because it's sitting days, the censure, not just days that exist on Earth until the end of the year.

Speaker 2 And that was a big deal. That was a big deal.
And the coalition kind of procedurally argued against that, right?

Speaker 2 Like saying, oh, well, you can't give the penalty after the thing has happened, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 I think there are some deeper reasons they were opposing it.

Speaker 2 They just didn't want to be seen or marketed in the right, like among right-wing voters, that they had, you know, kicked her out of parliament for seven days.

Speaker 2 I think it's worth mentioning. I absolutely need tough rebuke.
And also,

Speaker 2 it is not right that the Muslim community would feel targeted like this. It is right for the parliament to stand up and say that's not okay.

Speaker 2 But by giving her this censure, don't forget one more thing, it gave another day or two out of the story. And it just, you know, Murray Watt conceded that with me on afternoon briefing.

Speaker 2 Yeah, like it's a conundrum. We want to rebuke her.
That's why we did this. But yes, yes, this is part of the play.

Speaker 1 She seeks attention and we do give it to her by doing this and this is the conundrum isn't it Tom absolutely you know we have to decide how to cover these things stunts are stunts for a reason and you have to decide are you giving too much prominence to it the other voice that I think is worth mentioning I think it was on your show PK David Pocock had a really considered approach on this he said it would have been better for the Senate to follow its usual procedures and not shut Pauline Hansen down at the very start.

Speaker 1 He said that he felt that the democratic process should have played out differently. I thought that was a considered view.

Speaker 1 You know, you could have potentially cut this off at the past. Apart from anything else, Pauline Hansen disrupted the Senate for about two hours.

Speaker 1 They couldn't do anything else because she refused to leave. It was pretty messy stuff in the upper house.
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 8 Surely the whole point is for her to get the headlines while she's on this polling surge, One Nation's on this polling surge, to push her luck on that, if you like, get herself in the news.

Speaker 8 We know that a lot of Australians, because, you know, we've been covering politics, we've been covering One Nation, I have, since the very start, since it first was formed.

Speaker 8 And we know a lot of the feedback about people's attitudes to her. Oh, she's a bit of a larican, she's, you know, she serves it up to them, good honor, you know, they're all too up themselves.

Speaker 8 And, you know, there is a sentiment in some parts of the community, I think, that people are uncomfortable with the Burker. So she's tapping into that quite cynically.

Speaker 8 And it's all about for her trying to press the advantage that she feels she's got right now, particularly with the Nats elections.

Speaker 2 For sure.

Speaker 2 Look, I want to sort of dramatically segue to what is, I've got to say, probably the most important story for any Australian, which is inflation being stubborn, which means your cost of living is continually stubborn and high, and that does matter enormously.

Speaker 2 That at the same time as

Speaker 2 we've got, you know, an interestingly timed, it's not

Speaker 2 entirely a coincidence, obviously, but this these mixed headlines, a great headline for Labor out of the Australian Electoral Study, which shows that Labour was the dominant one in terms of economic management, people seeing them as the better economic managers, which is new.

Speaker 2 Then they float, Tom, this idea of public service cuts that they're kind of trying to be a bit tricky with their language on. So I'm putting a few things together because I think they're all linked.

Speaker 2 And then, of course, the 3.8% inflation figure, which does mean goodbye interest rate cuts, really, and is not the story they either want out or they want to happen, right?

Speaker 2 Um, just give me your hot takes on all of those together.

Speaker 2 It's a good fruit salad of issue. It is, because it's all kind of it's the economy stupid.

Speaker 1 I agree with you that the inflation number is the important issue of the week for punters around the country.

Speaker 1 I think making your household budget stack up when you're paying a big mortgage is very difficult.

Speaker 1 And the specter of rate cuts going further into the horizon, even the prospect of a rate rise coming next year, will be worrying for households. I think it's bad for the government.

Speaker 1 They've been very happy with their success in bringing down inflation, but now it's proving sticky and even going up. Potentially we'll see progress on that in 2026.
Difficult for Jim Chalmers.

Speaker 11 An outcome which is higher than we'd like through the year

Speaker 11 in headline terms in particular, but also in underlying terms as well. We acknowledge that.

Speaker 1 Equally on the question of public service budgets and public sector employment, potential job cuts in the APS, It was a difficult one. It was a good cabinet leak to the Financial Review this week.

Speaker 1 They said that

Speaker 1 the departments were being asked to identify potential savings of up to 5%.

Speaker 1 Now that would be a huge cut to budgets. I don't think anyone is expecting individual departments to carry cuts of that much.

Speaker 1 That would be billions of dollars and difficult for smaller departments to manage. I think they'll be more targeted than that.

Speaker 1 Katie Gallagher and Jim Chalmers say that this is the usual process of trying to get rid of lower priority spending so you can use the money for higher priority.

Speaker 1 But I think there will be some job losses in the public service and I think it's going to be difficult for Labor to explain that after a campaign where Peter Dutton made so much of cutting the APS.

Speaker 8 Exactly. I mean it was a major focus of Labor's electoral fight at the last election.

Speaker 8 They really targeted Jane Hume and the coalition over what they described as an assault on the public service and on Canberra. And that really resonated, I think.

Speaker 8 A lot of people saw that as code for, well, they're going to come after all of us, you know.

Speaker 8 So that, I think that really resonated, particularly sensitive for the Finance Minister, Katie Gallagher, who is a senator in Canberra.

Speaker 8 But just on that, I was a little persuaded by listening to Katie Gallagher on Radio National Breakfast this morning, where she talked about, you know, not a 5% cut, as you say, but just asking departments to identify their lowest priority spending, the lowest 5% of their spending, and see if there's something better they could do with that.

Speaker 8 Sounds fair enough.

Speaker 8 But then I thought, well, we have just seen the CSIR go through that very process of reprioritisation, that's what they call it, you know, as they try and manage their budget to really focus in on the priority research.

Speaker 8 And that has very definitely resulted in job cuts and a lot of job cuts. Is it, I think, 2,000 staff so far this year?

Speaker 8 Maybe even more, I'm not entirely sure.

Speaker 8 So it's hard for the government, the treasurer, and the finance ministers to say they're not expecting or ordering job cuts to see whether if this reprioritisation happens that that won't be the end result and that is tricky as you say difficult for them given their pitch at the last election.

Speaker 1 They have to manage a huge bureaucracy of course and there are tens of thousands of people working in government departments and agencies and for everything to be locked in place for three years at a time is unrealistic.

Speaker 1 However

Speaker 1 that that balance is a challenging one especially when a leak like this gives the impression that there's going to be a kind of slash and burn from Labor, which is the exact opposite of what they promised.

Speaker 1 I do think just to dwell on the past for a moment, the Dutton plan was going to cut tens of thousands of jobs from Canberra alone. It was ill-defined and kind of reckless.

Speaker 2 And they were boasting. They were boasting about that.
They were boasting about that. They thought that was.

Speaker 1 Absolutely, absolutely. So, look, I think it's incumbent on the press gallery to press Labor here and make sure that we're tracking the detail.

Speaker 1 One thing I would say is that these requests for savings are in the context of the May budget next year.

Speaker 1 So there is some time for this to flow through the system and for us to make sure we're on top of what's happening in these budgets within the departments.

Speaker 8 But it's also a sign, isn't it, that the government knows that May budget is already influenced. Oh,

Speaker 2 they have to be able to do that.

Speaker 1 They've got a lot of work to do. And Jim Chalmers and Katie Gallagher have made a real

Speaker 1 song and dance about their success in making savings and spending money more effectively.

Speaker 1 And look, that gets harder and harder after you've done the low-hanging fruit. It's more difficult to continue to save within the bureaucracy.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and it's interesting, at the end of the question time, Michelle Roland, who represents Tim Ayres in so Michelle Roland is the Attorney General.

Speaker 2 She represents the industry minister when she's in the lower house in question time, because the industry minister is a senator, is in the upper house.

Speaker 2 Sorry, boring detail, guys, but that's how it works.

Speaker 2 She added at the end of question time that more funding is coming in my EFO for the CSIRO, the details of which will be communicated to the public at the appropriate time.

Speaker 2 So Tom, it just shows, shows, right, like Labor can try things like, oh, let's not spend too much here, but then sometimes, you know, there's a very successful campaign like there has been on the CSIRO and science spending, I think a very legitimate one, can I say?

Speaker 2 And then they have to backflip.

Speaker 1 Well, because it looks like they weren't keeping their promise. It looked like they were trying to undercut the important work of the CSIRO.

Speaker 2 Because they weren't. That's what it looks like.
That's right, that's right.

Speaker 1 And it's good that they were forced into a bit of a retreat on this. And look, I think that that could potentially play out again if there are further job cuts sometime next year.

Speaker 2 Tom,

Speaker 2 you are, you know, thoughtful. You write really thoughtful columns.
I try, I try. You're good.
And I've been very like happy. You're absolutely the perfect guest for today.
Thanks for coming in.

Speaker 8 Perfect guest, Tom.

Speaker 1 Thank you. My pleasure.
Thanks for having me, guys. Great to talk to you both.

Speaker 5 Questions without notice? Are there any questions? Members on my route. The Prime Minister has the call.
Thanks very much, Mr. Speaker.

Speaker 5 Well, then I give the call to the Honourable, the Leader of the Opposition.

Speaker 6 Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My question is to the Prime Minister.

Speaker 2 The bells are ringing. That means it's time for our question time.
This week's question comes from Peter and it's a written question. Hello PK Fran.
Firstly welcome back Fran.

Speaker 2 Yes Peter I am glad Fran's back. Great to be back Peter yes I'm glad too.
The question is this.

Speaker 2 In a cold hard political reality would it make sense for some women in the Liberal Party, either federal or state, to quit the Liberal Party and effectively join the Teals?

Speaker 2 Regards to everyone everyone, David.

Speaker 8 Okay, well, my first thought to that is: there's not that many women in the Liberal Party at the moment, federally, to quit.

Speaker 8 And we have seen at the state level a lot of changing at the helm of the Liberal Party at state levels, and women have been selected.

Speaker 8 So, there's some different signals coming in the states and the feds, I think.

Speaker 8 So, I don't really expect we'll see federal female MPs quitting to join the Teals, but I think the concern for the Liberal Party, and it's been their concern for some few years now, is that women who should be running for the Liberal Party who should be putting their hand up to be candidates for the Liberal Party are being wooed and ultimately ending up running as teals and that's what we're seeing that some of these most of the many of the teals in fact you would think might sit more naturally with the economic conservatism of the Liberal Party but they are ending up in the teals and that points to the problem I think that the Liberal Party has with has with women.

Speaker 2 Yeah I mean and you know, when you say, would it make sense? Well, it might give them a bit of a boost in some places, like where they can market that.

Speaker 2 But, you know, don't forget that some of these people, I've, you know, they do actually believe in the Liberal Party. They're not like, they don't want to be teals.

Speaker 2 You know, like they want to, this is what they want.

Speaker 2 They might want it to change. Some of them might not want it to change.
You know, they're very conservative Liberal women. So, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2 But in terms of the electoral dividend, yeah, I think in some places there is a benefit. But there are those inside, you know, trying to make change there too.

Speaker 8 Mind you, I think it's also a concern within the Labor Party to some extent.

Speaker 8 You know, I mentioned that a lot of the new MPs are younger and they have these concerns around the environment, for instance.

Speaker 8 And some there's pressure within Anthony Albanese's caucus for him to manage expectations of his MPs.

Speaker 8 And in the future, you know, they need to, Labor needs to make sure too that they recruit candidates, female candidates, who may be tempted to go green-wise if the greens start getting some electoral capital back after the last election, because that's where their natural tendencies around prioritising the environment, for instance, sit.

Speaker 8 So, I think both the major parties have to keep an eye on their left and right flanks, basically.

Speaker 2 I think that's right. Thanks for your question.
Keep sending your questions in. We do like getting them, of course.

Speaker 8 Remember to follow politics now on the ABC Listen app so you never miss an episode.

Speaker 2 That's it for the party room this week, but we'll be together before next Thursday's podcast, Fran.

Speaker 8 We will, PK, on Tuesday, the 2nd of December. We're going to be on stage in Canberra at the Canberra Theatre for a Politics Now party room live show.

Speaker 8 So that's going to be an awful lot of fun, I reckon.

Speaker 2 That's right, Fran. We'll be wrapping the year up in politics with our podcast pal and 7.30 political editor, Jacob Griber, and it's going to be a whole lot of fun.
Can't wait.

Speaker 8 Tickets are going fast, folks.

Speaker 2 So if you can be in Canberra or you are in Canberra, grab them now before they disappear.

Speaker 8 We'll put the link to that in the show notes. And also David Spears will be back in the feed, of course, on Saturday for Insiders on Background.

Speaker 8 And this week, he's speaking with the independent economist Chris Richardson and the CEO of the Grattan Institute, Aruna Satnapalli, about inflation as we've been discussing these public service cuts, are they or aren't they?

Speaker 8 And where to now on reform. So that's going to be a good one.

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, see you, friend.

Speaker 8 See you, PK.