A Flock of Two

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Speaker 1 Hey, this is Radio Lab. I'm Latif Nasser.

Speaker 1 So recently, you may have seen just a rash of headlines about people using artificial intelligence for their mental health.

Speaker 1 There are all these therapist bots and just even even people using regular chat bots to help them find solutions to their problem, to calm them down, to just looking for somebody to even just to listen.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I don't know. I'm not sure what to think of any of it for a lot of different reasons, but partially because

Speaker 1 the AI doesn't know anything. It's just...

Speaker 1 taking an unimaginable amount of our words, scrambling them up and generating something relevant and helpful and maybe even intelligent seeming, but it doesn't actually know what any of those words mean.

Speaker 1 Ultimately, all it's doing is parroting our language back at us.

Speaker 1 And yet, I know a lot of people find it very helpful to talk to.

Speaker 1 All of that got me to thinking about a very different story that we made here at the show years ago. A story where, similarly, a person

Speaker 5 who needs help

Speaker 1 is helped by something,

Speaker 5 and it's unclear if that something really knows how it's helping or whether it's helping.

Speaker 1 We originally aired this back in 2011, so that was years before Chat GPT, but it's sort of a low-tech way of doing the same thing, of parroting your language back to you

Speaker 5 to help you.

Speaker 1 So today I want to play that story for you. Here it is: a flock of two.

Speaker 5 Wait, you're listening.

Speaker 5 You're listening

Speaker 5 to Radio Lab.

Speaker 5 Radio Lab from

Speaker 1 WNYC.

Speaker 5 Rewind.

Speaker 5 Hey, I'm Jad Abumraad. I'm Robert Krillowich.
This is Radio Lab, the podcast. And we're going to St.
Louis. Yeah.
Nice. Nice and direct.
This comes from our producer, Pat Balters.

Speaker 5 It's the story of a rescue. A double rescue, really.
And it's one we've been wanting to tell for a while. Pat Walters.
So a few months ago, I went to St. Louis because I'd heard this story about a guy

Speaker 5 who had this pet that basically saved his life.

Speaker 5 And the pet

Speaker 5 is a bird. It's about this guy named Jim Eggers.
Oh, you're recording? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 I'm going to record.

Speaker 5 And in 2005, Jim was living by himself in a little apartment in St. Louis.
Working in a Halloween industry. It was the winter, so Jim had just finished up his latest season at the local haunted house.

Speaker 5 I've done Halloween stuff for 19 years. What do you do?

Speaker 5 Most of the time I've been in costumes and so forth, or wear masks. You know, like jumping out from behind dark corners and scaring people.
I can scream and, you know, go nuts.

Speaker 5 Which is kind of a strange gig for a guy like Jim because he has a really hot temper. What's your what's technically your diagnosis?

Speaker 5 I have a bipolar disorder with psychotic tendencies, and what that pretty much is, is when I'm having a mood swing or whatnot, I can become extremely dangerous and violent.

Speaker 5 While I was there, he was totally calm. But Jim tells me that once he feels a mood swing start coming on,

Speaker 5 it feels like real strange and tingly.

Speaker 5 Might just be a few seconds before. All of a sudden, boom.
Here you are, like the incredible Hulk.

Speaker 5 Have you ever physically attacked someone and hurt them? Yeah.

Speaker 5 Jim's known around his neighborhood for just losing it from time to time. He shouts at people on the street, punches dents in people's cars.

Speaker 5 One time he even poured hot coffee from a second-story window onto his neighbor's head. I go off on people and

Speaker 5 it's horrible.

Speaker 5 And if you ask Jim, he'll tell you this. All goes back to when he was seven.
At the age of seven, I lost my kid brother in the Mississippi River. I saw him drown.

Speaker 5 You saw him drowning? Yeah, I witnessed him drowning. We wandered away from home.
We were not properly supervised by my parents.

Speaker 5 And I told my brother not to go over into the river because it was deep. He didn't listen to me, and then the currents dragged him down.

Speaker 5 I saw him bob up and down three times, and the third time he didn't come back up.

Speaker 5 And I was pleading with God, you know, crying,

Speaker 5 please bring him back. I'm going to be in trouble.
And when Jim's parents found out, they blamed him. You know, it was my fault my brother drowned.

Speaker 5 I should have been, you know, I should have saved him. And then other times they told me that, you know, they wish it was me that died instead of my brother.

Speaker 5 And then when he was 16, Jim's mom threw him out of the house. She just said one day, get out, Jim? Yeah.
She said she didn't want me over there anymore. Get out.

Speaker 5 After that, Jim's life kind of spiraled out of control. He ended up living on the streets for years and just getting angrier and angrier at everyone around him.

Speaker 5 And then, in 2005, which is where our part of the story begins, Jim did something that got him in very serious trouble. Tell me about the Archbishop situation.
Okay, as far as the Archbishop.

Speaker 5 He'd been reading news reports about sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, and for reasons that aren't entirely clear, Jim had become convinced that the local Archbishop

Speaker 5 was involved in covering this stuff up. Bailing out priests that have sexually assaulted children and so forth.
And one day he was watching the news and he saw Burke on there.

Speaker 5 Like on the 12 o'clock news. Talking about something.
Can't remember what.

Speaker 5 And at that point I snapped and picked up a phone,

Speaker 5 dialed the archdiocese, asked them to connect me to his office. Which like idiots they did and when they did I told them, you know, I ought to come down and kill you.

Speaker 5 I said, I may even do do that Sunday. A couple hours later, Jim went out to run some errands.
And when I head out the door, here were the police.

Speaker 5 Jim ended up getting sentenced to a year of probation. Just a few weeks into his probation, something happened that would basically set the story that we're telling about Jim in motion.

Speaker 5 Like a year's probation. It's a typical Sunday morning, and Jim's at church.
And he runs into this couple. These people that own variety bird shop in Valley Park.

Speaker 5 The husband stopped me and said, well, we know where you can get an African gray parrot. And they told me that she came with a cage.
I said,

Speaker 5 why would they approach you? Well, I was putting $100

Speaker 5 aside every month to pay for a baby African gray parrot. And you have to understand that Jim is kind of an animal in that.
He's had dogs and cats. Guinea pigs and stuff like that.
His whole life.

Speaker 5 Never a bird. But when Jim read about these African gray parrots, he became kind of obsessed with getting one.
Because I knew they were highly intelligent and they were a lot of fun.

Speaker 5 So when the bird shop people came up to Jim and said, we can get you an African gray parrot. And she comes with the cage for $550.
Jim thinks to himself, that's like half what it was going to pay.

Speaker 5 So he says, you know, I'll go ahead and take it. Yeah.
Because that was too good of a deal to pass up. There was a catch, though.
The bird wasn't at the shop. It was being sold by this local kid.

Speaker 5 who was just trying to get rid of her. I went over there and she looked absolutely horrible because this kid didn't take care of her.

Speaker 5 She was about a foot tall. You want some peanut butter?

Speaker 5 She had a black beak. Pretty yellow eyes too.
Piercing yellow eyes. Bright red and tail feathers.

Speaker 5 But when Jim first saw her,

Speaker 5 she didn't have any flight feathers in her left wing because she'd torn all of them out.

Speaker 5 Yeah, she was plucking her feathers.

Speaker 5 Which is this awful thing birds do when they get really stressed. And

Speaker 5 I mean, she looked horrible.

Speaker 5 I almost wanted to say no after I saw her. But he knew he couldn't just leave her there.
So he paid the kid. Took her home and gave her lots of loving and care.

Speaker 5 And within like three days, she bowed her head.

Speaker 5 That means she pretty much bonded with me.

Speaker 5 Like the third week I owned her, I was in

Speaker 5 another room on the telephone and she's like, hey, Jim, do you want a beer?

Speaker 5 And it's like, I don't drink beer.

Speaker 5 She would say that to you. Yeah, she asked me if I wanted a beer and then she'd

Speaker 5 tell me

Speaker 5 stuff like,

Speaker 5 will you get me a beer?

Speaker 5 You know, made me choke on my coffee. But a few weeks later, Sadie started imitating Jim.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 She'll impersonate a little chuckle that I do. It's like, yeah.

Speaker 1 It's even better than Elmo could laugh.

Speaker 5 Sadie spent more time with Jim. She learned to say words and phrases.
And then one day,

Speaker 5 several weeks after I had her, something kind of wonderful happened. I came home and I was like in a really bad mood.
And I knew I had to do something.

Speaker 5 One of those moments when Jim could just feel he was about to lose control. So I was trying to talk myself into calming down.

Speaker 5 What would that sound like? I was talking to myself and telling myself, calm down, you'll be okay, everything's fine, you know,

Speaker 5 it's not so bad.

Speaker 5 And then she started repeating that.

Speaker 5 Saying, calm down, you'll be okay, everything's fine. Exactly.
Just like Jim was saying. Word for word.
I was like, wow, and it's like, that gives me an ideal.

Speaker 5 Jim started rewarding Sadie every time she said something that might help calm him down. Like, you know, you'll be okay.
Treat. Everything's fine.
It's not as bad as you think. Treat.
Shut up. Treat.

Speaker 5 I don't want to hear it. Treat.
I love you, Jim, and she'll make a kissing sound. Treat, treat.
It just goes on and on and on.

Speaker 5 So Jim went online and actually found this special kind of cage that you can carry around on your back. Then I took her with me just everywhere.
Even got her registered as a service animal.

Speaker 5 Kind of like a seeing eye dog. I mean, everywhere.
Where would you go with her? I've taken her into churches.

Speaker 5 I've taken her aboard the public buses. Take her to the gym, yes.
I've even taken her into like a couple of casinos through here. And Jim and Sadie had a pretty good situation.

Speaker 5 When Jim started feeling himself get mad, he'd tell himself, calm down. Sadie would repeat him.
But then, one day, a few years ago, Sadie did something that went beyond mimicry.

Speaker 1 That's right after this break.

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Speaker 1 Just before the break, Jim and his parrot Sadie were developing this relationship where she would help him calm down when he was about to lose control.

Speaker 5 A few years ago, Sadie did something that went beyond mimicry. Jim says he doesn't exactly remember the first time it happened.
I can't think of anything right now because I'm like blanking out.

Speaker 5 But it probably went something like this. Jim's just out in the neighborhood one day.
It's got Sadie in her little backpack cage.

Speaker 5 And something happens that sets Jim off. I don't know, a car cuts him off at the crosswalk.
And immediately, Jim starts getting that tingly feeling.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 5 And then, in the split-second fraction of a moment, before Jim starts to talk himself down like he does, calm down, Jim. Calm down.
He hears, calm down, Jim.

Speaker 5 From Sadie. Exactly.

Speaker 5 She says it first? Yeah. Wow.
Like she, she, and she, like, she knew what was in his mind or inside him, like, before he even did anything. Oh, yeah, she knows.
She she can sense that.

Speaker 5 How do you suppose that was happening? I mean, maybe she... I don't know.
I mean, Jim thinks maybe she can, like, feel a change in the way he's moving.

Speaker 5 You know, I have like body tremors when I'm starting to really get furious. Maybe Sadie can pick up on those tremors.
And Jim says this just kept happening. She does it all the time.

Speaker 5 And, you know, it makes you stop to think. If I would go off on a person or something like that, you know, I wouldn't have any remorse or anything.
But, I mean,

Speaker 5 it's just a little innocent animal. But seemed to know him in this really intimate way.

Speaker 5 Which kind of blew my mind. Yeah.
But Sadie didn't do it while I was there. So I left Jim this tape recorder and I asked him to

Speaker 5 try to get something like this on tape, just so I could prove it to people. Hello, my name is James Zeggers, and I'm standing here with my parrot, Sadie.

Speaker 5 She's standing here right next to me on her little perch.

Speaker 5 Say something. You can say something to the

Speaker 1 microphone, huh?

Speaker 5 A week or so later, I got the tape back. What do you have to say? Sadie was on there saying all kinds of things like, hello, hello.
Hello. She said her name.

Speaker 5 She said, said, good girl. Good girl.
Things that I could imagine Jim saying to her.

Speaker 5 But did you ever get a sense from anything she said that there was a kind of weird intuitive exchange happening or something? Not really.

Speaker 5 But I thought if it happens as often as Jim says it happens, that someone in his neighborhood must have seen it.

Speaker 5 So I called this woman who runs a coffee shop around the corner from his house, asked her if she'd seen it. She hadn't.
Oh.

Speaker 5 Then I figured I could call the company that runs the buses and the trains that Jim rides every day, thinking that maybe one of their drivers would have seen him get upset about something.

Speaker 5 And nothing. And then I called Jim's best friend Larry, and I figured if anyone has seen this, it would be Larry because he's around them like all the time.
He hadn't either.

Speaker 5 So I called Jim to ask if I was missing anybody. He didn't answer, so I left a message.

Speaker 5 Left another message. And then finally.
Hello? Hi, Jim. I got him on the phone.
It's Pat again.

Speaker 5 Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 5 It seems like nobody else has ever seen her or heard her say those kinds of things to you.

Speaker 5 Well, she's definitely has said those, but I mean, she's not going to say the same thing every time she talks to me. Right, but has anyone ever seen her talk you down from being mad?

Speaker 5 No, because most of the time people aren't around me when I'm having a mood swing.

Speaker 5 I started to to wonder, like, is this the kind of thing a parrot is even capable of?

Speaker 5 So I decided to check.

Speaker 7 Hello.

Speaker 5 I called the scientist. I'm Dr.

Speaker 7 Irene Pepperberg, adjunct associate professor at Brandeis University.

Speaker 5 She's basically the world's expert on African gray parrots. So I asked her, have you ever heard of anything like this before?

Speaker 7 Not exactly, but it doesn't surprise me.

Speaker 5 In fact, Irene told me that something kind of similar had happened to her once.

Speaker 7 Yes, I mean, there's this.

Speaker 5 With this parrot named Alex that she worked with for like decades.

Speaker 5 Irene told me that whenever Alex would get out of line.

Speaker 7 Preening instead of working or butting in with the other birds when he should be quiet so we can train them, we'd say to him, calm down, just calm down.

Speaker 7 And one time I come storming into the laboratory because I just come from a horrible faculty meeting when I was in Tucson. And Alex takes one look at me and he says, calm down.

Speaker 5 Really?

Speaker 7 Yeah. And I actually stormed off and I said something to the effect of, don't you tell me to calm down? And I went into my office and slammed the door.

Speaker 5 And Irene says that a parrot, like Alex or Sadie, probably doesn't know what calm down means, or you'll be okay, Jim.

Speaker 7 She may not know what each of those little phrases mean, but she knows that when she says calm down, Jim calms down.

Speaker 7 So she has learned from association that that will bring her flockmate back to normal.

Speaker 5 Which is a big deal for parrots, Irene says, because they're prey, so they're constantly looking out for each other, trying to keep from getting eaten.

Speaker 7 And in Sadie's case, she's in a flock of two at this point, so if she wants to feel comfortable while preening or eating, she needs to know that he's going to be watching out for her.

Speaker 7 Remember, she doesn't have a big flock. She just has him.

Speaker 1 Wow, so in the end, what do you make of all this?

Speaker 5 Well, I mean, I can't prove that she does the things Jim says she does.

Speaker 5 But on the other hand, everyone I talk to around Jim says that whatever is happening between them is keeping him from threatening people on the street, from punching dents in people's cars.

Speaker 5 It's just keeping him a better guy. Yeah.

Speaker 5 So maybe it doesn't matter. I don't care if anybody believes me or not.
You know, it's not, I'm not here to prove anything to anybody. That's not the point.

Speaker 5 The point is, I know what she does, and that is that.

Speaker 5 Say hello.

Speaker 5 Not burp.

Speaker 5 No, don't eat. No, eat.

Speaker 5 Thanks to Pat Walters. Come on, fly home.

Speaker 1 Into Sadie?

Speaker 1 Hello.

Speaker 5 Good girl.

Speaker 5 Into Jim.

Speaker 5 Sadie, what are you looking at, huh? She's got her eyes focused on me and trying to figure out what you're doing with the mic.

Speaker 5 Can I get you some coffee? Thanks. Come on, you're quite welcome.

Speaker 5 Hi.

Speaker 8 I'm Jonathan, and I'm from St. Louis, Missouri.
Radio Lab was created by Jad Abumrod and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co-hosts.

Speaker 8 Dylan Keith is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, W.

Speaker 8 Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Rebecca Lacks, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindhu Nanyu Samadham, Matt Kielty, Annie McEwen, Alex Neeson, Sara Kari, Sarah Sandback, Anissa Vitza, Arianne Wack, Pat Walters, Molly Webster, Jessica Young, with help from Rebecca Rand.

Speaker 8 Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, Anna Pujo-Matsini, and Natalie Middleton.

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Speaker 1 Just ask the Capital One Bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way.
He'd also tell you that Radio Lab is his favorite podcast, too. Aw, really? Thanks, Capital One Bank Guy.

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Speaker 1 Radiolab is supported by the National Forest Foundation, a nonprofit transforming America's love of nature into action for our forests.

Speaker 1 Did you know that national forests provide clean drinking water to one in three Americans? And when forests struggle, so do we.

Speaker 1 The National Forest Foundation creates lasting impact by restoring forests and watersheds, strengthening wildfire resilience, and expanding recreation access for all.

Speaker 1 Last year, they planted 5.3 million trees and led over 300 projects to protect nature and communities nationwide. Learn more at nationalforests.org/slash radiolive.