Probing Where the Sun Does Shine: A Holiday Special

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Speaker 4 to Radio Lab lab radio lab from

Speaker 4 WNYC

Speaker 4 hey I'm Latif Nasser and this is Radio Lab

Speaker 4 and

Speaker 4 amazing today

Speaker 4 I'm I've been looking forward to talking to you for so long no thank you. Thank you.
It's really a pleasure talking to you.

Speaker 4 We're doing something a little bit different because this episode is coming out at the tail end of December 2024.

Speaker 4 And so far this month, we have traced the kind of bogus origin story of Stockholm Syndrome.

Speaker 4 And our staff went on a bit of a romp, fact-checking a bunch of the old chestnuts, you know, the adages you hear all the time.

Speaker 4 So those were our two new episodes for this month. That's what we do.
We make two new episodes a month.

Speaker 4 But we wanted to do a little something extra a little sneaky holiday gift a christmasish offering you could call it uh it's actually two little christmas-ish offerings one from me one from lulu uh they're similar but also very different and i'm going to start off with this story this is the especially christmassy one that i heard from this guy newer

Speaker 4 I am Noora Wafi, a scientist at the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Lab.

Speaker 4 And Noor is part of a project, actually a mission, that, I don't know, a few weeks ago, I didn't even think was physically possible. There are things, now I've been on this mission for 16 years.

Speaker 4 And there are certain aspects for me. The way they work is still like magic.
Okay, but if we back up all the way, like, how did you even get interested in all of this?

Speaker 4 So my interest in space was as a very young child. Nur is originally from Tunisia.
Born in the countryside, and being in the countryside, there is no light pollution at all.

Speaker 4 So the sky is just, in particular in summertime, is just mesmerizing. It's just captivating.
And that's actually probably the first thing that got me interested into

Speaker 4 space. After that, my interest shifted a little bit on the sun, being really fascinated by it, how much heat in particular we get in the summer.
And I did all sorts of experiments.

Speaker 4 He says when he was a kid, he actually made his own light prism out of plexiglass to create the rainbow spectrum from violet to red. He started playing with lenses.
Focusing the sunlight.

Speaker 4 Some of them actually they cause fire, but it is not really big fire at all.

Speaker 4 But still, still, the power of the sun

Speaker 4 was so fascinating to me. And Noor says that as he got older, he got interested in other fields.
Fields like particle physics, like nuclear physics, like optics, quantum mechanics.

Speaker 4 He ends up going to study in France, starts working in the States at different observatories. But around 2008, he hears about this mission that NASA is working on.

Speaker 4 Put forth in 1958, many, many years before I was born. That is so monumental, that is going to make history, that is going to make a first

Speaker 4 just in a few weeks from now.

Speaker 4 So, to explain, 2008, Noor starts working with NASA on this mission. And then,

Speaker 4 2018, 10, 9,

Speaker 4 Noor and a team of NASA scientists launched this rocket

Speaker 2 out into space

Speaker 4 and being carried by that rocket was this about three meters tall couple meters wide spacecraft. It's not really a big spacecraft when you look at it.
It almost looks like cone-shaped.

Speaker 4 So once it got into space, this little cone-shaped spacecraft detached from the rocket and Noor and his team fired it up and sent it to Venus. And kind of slow the spacecraft a little bit down.

Speaker 4 So that the spacecraft would get caught in Venus's orbit. And then as it swung around Venus, they hit the jets and it just went

Speaker 4 out toward the sun, then around the sun, then back to Venus, where again it goes

Speaker 4 slingshots around Venus, out around the sun, and back again and again

Speaker 4 and again.

Speaker 4 And as it's yo-yoing back and forth between Venus and the Sun, it's getting faster and faster and faster.

Speaker 4 More than 430,000 miles per hour. Like, that's just so fast you can't even comprehend it.
Yes, it's the fastest human object flying in space.

Speaker 4 And as it gets faster, that orbit around the Sun and Venus, it gets tighter and tighter and tighter to the point that this little spacecraft will get so close to the Sun that we will basically, for the first time ever,

Speaker 4 touch it.

Speaker 4 Nobody has ever done this nobody has ever gone so close to a star this is the mission the mission that noor became obsessed with the mission that nasa spent decades developing generations who invested into this mission to try and understand our sun because there are certain phenomena that happening on the sun or in the environment of the sun that are so puzzling that for decades now we don't really have a full understanding of them.

Speaker 4 For instance, Noor says, take the surface of the sun that we see with the naked eye. The temperature is about 10,000 degrees Fahrenheit.

Speaker 4 But he says, if you move just a couple thousand miles away out from the sun, the temperature will jump to 2 million or 3 million degrees Fahrenheit. It's more.
It's way, way.

Speaker 4 It's over 300 times hotter. So nobody knows why that is.
No. No.
He said there's all these other mysteries as well, like solar wind or something called the dust free zone.

Speaker 4 These mysteries and about the sun, how the sun works, the hope is to solve solve some of these mysteries. Basically, rewriting textbooks for us about the sun.

Speaker 4 But I mean, how could you possibly send something and now you and now what you're telling me is that not even touching the sun, but even

Speaker 4 further away from the sun, it's even hotter than the surface of the sun.

Speaker 4 So how can you get something even remotely close to that without it just melting into a puddle?

Speaker 4 The spacecraft, when you look at it in terms of technology, it's really a marvel of technology. So, for instance, Noor says, NASA had spent decades trying to make a heat shield for a solar spacecraft.

Speaker 4 But the heat shield was so heavy. So, basically, it's not really doable.
You cannot do it. So, what is the solution? The solution is you would be surprised if it's basically a piece of carbon foam.

Speaker 4 What?

Speaker 4 It's a piece of carbon foam. How? How does that happen?

Speaker 4 This is not any carbon foam. This is a very sophisticated carbon foam.
Okay, tell me about the sophisticated carbon foam. So, the heat shield, it is 4.5 inches thick.
That's it?

Speaker 4 And basically, all of it is a carbon foam. On top of it, we have also a ceramic coating that is wide to reflect as much light as possible.
But that's the heat shield. Okay.

Speaker 4 And when we are closest to the sun, the heat shield side facing the sun will be glowing at more than 2,500 degrees Fahrenheit. Oh my god.

Speaker 4 You know, at that temperature, you can melt almost all metals we know of. So the nice thing about this that the backside of the heat shield which is just four inch and a half thick

Speaker 4 it will be at 700 degrees fahrenheit huh so way less so in a way in four inch and a half we already lost uh 1800 degrees holy cow about a yard or a meter behind that yeah it is almost room temperature no

Speaker 4 how does it do that well that's actually the magic of engineering and that's just the heat shields like the spacecraft also has solar panels to power it but of course if you get that close to the sun those could like vaporize so they developed these like radiator pipes that go on the back of the solar panels can you guess what is the liquid we use to cool the solar panels like liquid nitrogen or something it's simply water water and it's just a gallon of water They also angled all the solar panels so they could be like in the shadows of the spacecraft so they also don't overheat.

Speaker 4 I mean, it's really, it's just wild. Every piece of it is basically edge-cutting technology.

Speaker 4 And so on November 6th, this little spacecraft full of edge-cutting technology and sophisticated carbon foam and a gallon of water rounded Venus and began its nearly 67 million mile journey.

Speaker 4 to the sun. And on December 24, 2024, which is the Christmas Eve, will be this historical moment.
Where for the first time ever, we will basically reach out and touch a star.

Speaker 4 We will be basically embracing a star.

Speaker 4 To me,

Speaker 4 that's like magic.

Speaker 4 So that's the quick conversation I had with Noir.

Speaker 4 And why I was so excited to play it for you now is that I really, I have this image in my mind of you, the listener, just sometime over the holiday you'll be doing something holiday related like maybe lighting a candle or gathering with friends around a fire or even just like like microwaving your mom's leftovers it'll be a heat related thing and then boom it'll just hit you that at that very moment up in the firmament This little probe is moving faster than any human-made object has ever moved, putting itself and by proxy proxy all of us closer to the sun than we have ever been before.

Speaker 4 That's what I hope happens.

Speaker 4 I will, I plan on checking back with Noor at some point in the new year to hear how everything went down, what he and his team learned.

Speaker 4 And that is the exactly the kind of bonus update that we like to put in our lab member feed. So if you're already a member of the lab, keep your eyes peeled for that.

Speaker 4 If you are not a member, that is the best way to help us do the things we love to do, like dig up buried archival tape, like when we did that for the NYPD psychologist who literally coined the term Stockholm syndrome.

Speaker 4 Or, you know, when we like to go out and add a live dimension to a historical story, like when we cooked up a thousand-year-old fish sauce recipe with some meeting nasrat, or even just, I mean, the standard stuff we do, like just hours and hours of labor on immersive soundscapes that make you feel like you're really at the center of the action.

Speaker 4 We need your support to keep doing this work. If you're already a member of the lab, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
You are vital.

Speaker 4 If you are not a member, well, just know that joining the lab is the best way to make sure that we can keep reliably bringing you deeply researched, carefully produced, rigorously fact-checked, edge-cutting radio journalism.

Speaker 4 So consider going to radiolab.org slash join and becoming a lab member today. If you already are a member, we just did introduce a new premium level that you could join.

Speaker 4 It also makes a great holiday gift, radiolab.org slash join. As a member, you get extra content, ad-free listening, all kinds of extra little benefits.

Speaker 4 And we are actually this month, as a reward for joining, we're giving out this very cool poster, which comes from an episode of our sibling show, Terrestrials, hosted by Lulu Miller.

Speaker 4 And after we come back from a short break, we're going to play a little bit from the episode that inspired the poster, where Lulu, kind of like myself, also became very, very obsessed about a tiny little spacecraft that, in her case, was heading out in the opposite direction, saddled with a little less edge-cutting technology, but carrying a much more emotional payload.

Speaker 4 And that's after the break.

Speaker 8 Hi, I'm Lulu Miller, and this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. The holidays are a time of old traditions, lighting candles in the window, singing centuries-old songs.
But why stay wed to the past?

Speaker 8 I've heard all kinds of stories lately of people inventing new traditions, like my friends Lena and Jamie, who celebrated what they called trash giving last year by picking up trash in the morning and then eating trashy food together at night.

Speaker 8 Or my friend Terry, who skipped out on Thanksgiving altogether last year for a solo camping retreat of replenishment. Holidays can bring up the feels, good feels and hard feels.

Speaker 8 It's natural and a great way to navigate all of them is through the regular practice of therapy. Why not try something new and different like giving yourself the gift of therapy?

Speaker 8 And one of the easiest ways to get you going on this journey is BetterHelp. BetterHelp does the initial matching for you so you can focus on your therapy goals.

Speaker 8 A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences, and their 12 plus years of experience means they typically get it right the first time.

Speaker 8 And if you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time from a list of recommendations tailored to your needs. This December, start a new tradition.

Speaker 8 Treat yourself by taking care of you. Our listeners get 10% off at betterhelp.com/slash radio lab.
That's betterhelp.com/slash radiolab.

Speaker 4 Radiolab is supported by ATT. ATT believes hearing a voice can change everything.
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Speaker 4 It's why we save those voicemails from our loved ones. They mean something.
ATT knows the holidays are the perfect time to do just that. Share your voice.

Speaker 4 If it's been a while since you called someone who matters, now's the time. Because it's more than just a conversation.
It's a chance to say something they'll hear forever.

Speaker 4 So spread a little love with a call this season and happy holidays from ⁇ T. Connecting changes everything.

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Speaker 4 Latif Radiolab.

Speaker 4 So we're now leaving behind the spacecraft that was going to the sun and turning to a spacecraft going out the opposite direction to Jupiter, in particular to Europa, one of Jupiter's moons that has an ocean of water, is a possible other place in our solar system that can sustain life.

Speaker 4 Now, again, this was a story that was part of our kids and family podcast, Terrestrials, hosted by Lulu Miller, my co-host.

Speaker 4 This spacecraft that this episode is about, it launched just recently in October 2024.

Speaker 4 And the reason why Lulu became obsessed with it is because on the side of the spacecraft, there was going to be a poem etched into it.

Speaker 11 And tasked with writing that poem this message to represent all of us here on earth was u.s poet laureate ada limon but she was stuck like real stuck terrified so we resume with the tale of what she did to move through that well i had about three months to write the poem and i was going to hawaii to a town i'm not kidding named haiku

Speaker 11 and i was staying in the house of a former u.s poet laureate, W.S. Merwin.
And so my husband and I went there. It's inside an incredible palm forest.

Speaker 11 All of these beautiful different varieties of palm trees. And so I got to watch all of the different species of birds and all the geckos inside and outside the house.

Speaker 11 And I had this real space to think and sit with the idea of what I wanted to offer. And so I began writing the poem.

Speaker 11 I was trying to imagine the audience being sort of out in space, right?

Speaker 11 Whether there were other beings out there, whether the audience was the stars themselves.

Speaker 11 I kept imagining a loneliness.

Speaker 11 And I would read a draft to my husband and he would say,

Speaker 11 you know,

Speaker 11 I think you need to stop writing a NASA poem.

Speaker 6 What do you think your husband heard when he said that?

Speaker 11 I think he was hearing maybe more of a scientific approach, more stiff and formal type of writing, maybe more of following the assignment, thinking of it as presenting facts about Europa.

Speaker 11 Poets have one really beautiful way of procrastinating. And let me tell you about it.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 11 What we love to do is research.

Speaker 11 And it means that instead of writing the poem, I think, you know what? I'm going to go Google everything

Speaker 11 about this moon of Jupiter. And it's a wonderful distraction and it's a great way of learning.
But it often doesn't actually help you make the poem. But it is our way of just

Speaker 11 not writing.

Speaker 11 So I think that that's part of what I was doing was thinking, oh, I'm going to teach people about Europa. And that's what he was hearing.

Speaker 11 And so what I needed to shift was, oh, no, I need to speak to Europa and have this be a reaching out.

Speaker 13 Was there anything that like

Speaker 4 a bird or a tree or a moment that

Speaker 13 led you down the right path or the rabbit hole that would then turn into the more us poem? I don't know. There might not be, but was there, do you have anything in your head?

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 11 I was in Hawaii and I was staring at this palm frond and the palms really move. They sort of glow and move.
They have a bounciness to them in the wind.

Speaker 11 And there was a little gecko that was stuck on the underside. It was completely upside down.
And he was hanging on this palm frond. And I thought, how amazing that little dude is just, you know,

Speaker 11 bouncing in the wind back and forth. And I thought of the line,

Speaker 11 we too are made of wonders.

Speaker 4 We too.

Speaker 12 Meaning like both Europa and Earth are made of wonders?

Speaker 11 Yeah, that's where the poem shifted.

Speaker 11 Then I realized that really the audience was us.

Speaker 11 here on this beautiful planet. And it includes everyone on Earth, and it also includes plants and animals.
So it needed to be from all of us to all of us.

Speaker 11 And the I,

Speaker 11 me, Ada, had to be taken out of it.

Speaker 11 And that's where the poem really reached a momentum where I could follow it through.

Speaker 11 But I think that what I struggled with the most was

Speaker 11 how to use a we.

Speaker 11 To be honest i am someone that's always been a little suspicious of a we

Speaker 11 you know as a latina as um a woman there are times where i even think of we the people and i think am i included in that we

Speaker 11 i want to know if i'm included in that we and that of course is from our constitution Exactly. And so I think that as a poet, I often don't use we.

Speaker 11 And so I think the most difficult thing I had to do was actually

Speaker 11 surrender surrender to the we

Speaker 11 and remember that

Speaker 11 the we had to represent everybody and

Speaker 11 to try to include trees and animals and plants.

Speaker 11 And so I had to really release that idea of the I

Speaker 11 and make room for my most communal voice.

Speaker 11 And that was where the poem took hold.

Speaker 4 Really took hold.

Speaker 12 That poem is now engraved into the spacecraft, and Ada's words are literally touching the cold of space, collecting stardust as they blast toward Jupiter's moon.

Speaker 6 She did it.

Speaker 13 She found a way to write a message from all of us here in this water world to Jupiter's water world

Speaker 13 in under 200 words.

Speaker 4 All right. Well, would you be up for reading it?

Speaker 11 I would be honored.

Speaker 11 In Praise of Mystery, a poem for Europa.

Speaker 11 Arching under the night sky, inky with black expansiveness, we point to the planets we know. We pin quick wishes on stars.

Speaker 11 From Earth, we read the sky as if it is an unerring book of the universe, expert and evident.

Speaker 11 Still, there are mysteries below our sky, the whale song, the songbird singing its call in the bough of a wind-shaken tree.

Speaker 11 We are creatures of constant awe,

Speaker 11 curious at beauty, at leaf and blossom, at grief and pleasure, sun and shadow.

Speaker 11 And it is not darkness that unites us, not the cold distance of space,

Speaker 11 but the offering of water. Each drop of rain, each rivulet, each pulse, each vein.
O second moon, we too are made of water, of vast and beckoning seas.

Speaker 11 We too are made of wonders, of great and ordinary loves, of small, invisible worlds, of a need to call out through the dark.

Speaker 13 Do you feel like a part of you is going to space?

Speaker 11 I do. I do feel like a part of me is going to space and

Speaker 11 because I made the poem and the line breaks and the stanza breaks, that you have my own breath in it, the way that I read it, the way that I, you know,

Speaker 11 made the poem.

Speaker 11 And

Speaker 11 so, in some ways, it is my

Speaker 11 little human breath is going.

Speaker 4 So, like I said earlier, we made a poster inspired by this episode of Terrestrials. It is beautiful.

Speaker 4 You can check it out on our website or on Instagram, and it can be yours if you go to radiolab.org/slash join and become a lab member.

Speaker 4 Like I said, lab members are a critical part of how we fund the show, how we get to do the work that we do.

Speaker 4 So, please considering if you haven't already joining, you get all sorts of stuff, bonus content, ad-free episodes, this amazing poster.

Speaker 4 If you are already a member, a small additional one-time gift will also get you the poster.

Speaker 4 Now, whether you are a lab member or are about to become one, or, you know, whatever, you can't afford to do it this time of year, I want to tell you about one more way that you can sort of join our little party here at no cost to you.

Speaker 4 Because as some of you might know, we are in the last week of our global contest to name one of Earth's quasi-moons, a little rocky buddy that'll be with us for the next 600 laps around the sun.

Speaker 4 We partnered with the official namers of things in space, the International Astronomical Union, and we solicited thousands of names from nearly 100 countries. We winnowed them down to seven finalists.

Speaker 4 And now, for the next week only, you get to choose the one you like best. The name with the most votes will be the official name for this thing in space that will outlive us all.

Speaker 4 Vote for the name you like best at radiolab.org slash moon. But for the end of the year, that's radiolab.org slash moon it'll take two minutes and you can say you made your mark in the heavens

Speaker 4 our little solar probe journey by the way was produced and sound designed by matt kilty and of course the bit of terrestrials you just heard was produced by the terrestrials team anna gonzalez mira bertwentonic and lulu miller with help from tanya chaola alan gofinski sarah sandbeck valentina powers and joe plord fact-checking by natalie middleton you can hear that whole episode of terrestrials which is packed full of just gorgeous, spacey stuff about Europa and not to mention questions being asked by adorable children.

Speaker 4 You can hear that whole episode. It is called An Ocean in Space over on our kids feed at terrestrialspodcast.org.

Speaker 4 That's it for today. That's it for this year.

Speaker 4 So I will see you in 2025 when we will be diving into the darkest place on the planet. We will be getting high huffing apples and we will be untangling quantum entanglement inside a bird's eyeball.

Speaker 4 Something to look forward to.

Speaker 4 Yeah, happy holidays. Thanks for listening.
Catch you next time.

Speaker 14 Hey, I'm Lemon and I'm from Richmond, Indiana. And here are the staff credits.
Radio Lab was created by Jad Abimrod and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latz of Nasser are our co-hosts.

Speaker 14 Dylan Keith is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, W.

Speaker 14 Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindhun Yanan Sambandan, Matt Kielty, Rebecca Lex, Annie McEwen, Alex Neeson, Sara Kari, Sarah Sandback, Anissa Vitza, Arianne Wack, Pat Walters, and Molly Webster.

Speaker 14 Our five checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, and Natalie Middleton.

Speaker 15 Hi, my name is Treza. I'm calling from Colchester in Essex, UK.

Speaker 15 Leadership support for Radiolab science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betsy Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, the Samoan Foundation Initiative and the John Templeton Foundation.

Speaker 16 Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P.

Speaker 15 Sloan Foundation.

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