Haunted

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Hey, I'm Leftov Nasser. This is Radio Lab and your podcast feed a day early because it is October 31st.
We're celebrating Halloween by bringing you a ghost story for the occasion.

There aren't a lot of radio stories out there that will genuinely spook you, but also make you laugh out loud. And this one, oh man, does exactly that.

We first released it exactly 10 years ago today, reported by our now senior producer, Matt Kilty. This was one of his first stories, actually.

It's about exactly how far one man is willing to go to understand his haunted house. This story is both a trick and the perfect fun-sized Halloween treat.
So here you go. Happy Halloween.

Enjoy haunted.

Wait, you're listening.

If you're listening

to Radio Lab,

Radio Lab from

WNYC.

Rewind.

I think there's a lot of moments in your life that you find yourself doing something.

Okay.

There's anybody in here. My name is Brittany.

I'd love to be able to talk with you.

And you take that moment and step back from it. Are you here?

And you realize. Come through to us.
What the fuck am I doing?

What just happened? Was this real? And I think that was one of those moments. Hey, I'm Jad Abun Rod.
I'm Robert Krowich. This is Radio Lab.
And today on the podcast...

A ghost story.

Really? We're going to do a ghost story? Yeah, it's Halloween, dude. Well, you don't even know what we're to just listen.
All right. Let's listen.
Okay. Okay.

This one comes from our producer Matt Kielty. Yeah, so I first heard this story from a buddy of mine.

His name is Dennis Conroe. Dennis? Andy.
Hey, what's up, dude? That's producer Andy Mills. You guys are all buddies.
Total buds. Anyways, the story.
All right. Well, Dennis.
Yes.

It's about a lot of things, but in particular, a house.

So let's start with the house. When did you move back in?

Well, let's see. I was probably, I don't know, age 20.
Dennis had been going to college. Yep.
By the way, what did you study?

Creative writing. Okay.
But, you know,

I just kind of got bored there. Kind of stopped going going to class.

And

I think once my parents realized that, they weren't very happy. I would assume so.
And so,

yeah, I was kind of asked to come back home.

Back to a town just outside Kansas City. Little town called Grandview.
Did you grow up in this house? I did. I did.
And the house was fairly old. Yeah, it was about 105 years old at the time.

Two-story white house, nice little porch, awning over it. Typical farmhouse style.
And so were at your parents' home back, what, in your old bedroom? Yep, in my old childhood bedroom.

You know, so there was always a sense of like, I need to get out of this house.

It's holding me back somehow from things. So we got a job.
Worked a job and got laid off.

And one year turned into two, and then three.

Then four and then five. It was not.
Not a great time to be there. In what way? Just that I felt like I was still

16.

He says he'd overhear his mom telling people on the phone, oh, well, you know, he's never got to move out, is he?

And then she started circling classifieds. Jobs for typists, printing press, sales rep, typesetter.
I don't know. I think everything in my

life.

However, I mean for it not to sort of moves at my own snail's pace.

Eventually. When he was fairly old, like 27, maybe.
Actually, he was 28. After eight years in this house, Dennis gets a steady job, finds this cheap apartment.
This ratty six-plex apartment.

He starts packing up his things. But right when he's set to move out, to finally leave home.
My mom got really sick.

Dennis's mom had been in remission from breast cancer for like nine years, but that summer, her doctors told her that it had returned. And it had spread quite a bit.

So I said to her, like, uh, you know, do you, do you want me to be be here? Or do you want me to go?

And she was like, well, you know, if this is my time, she wants to go knowing that her kids can take care of themselves.

So Dennis moved out. And about five months later, his mom died.
Yeah, she went pretty fast.

About a month or so after my mom died, my dad found out he had stage four prostate cancer. Wow.
And he was really too sick to take care of the house and just be in a guy by himself at that point.

Now, Dennis pretty much had to come home. I'd take care of him.
Three, four times a week.

And as he got worse, he had said to me, like, hey, let's try to find you a house to buy so that I can teach you how to do all of the kind of stuff that one has to do.

You know, that men know how to do things like change out plumbing, all this kind of stuff. And so we put an offer on a house.
But that fell through.

And before they could find something else, the cancer from his prostate spread to his brain. And, you know, the last week of his life, he was really not there.

I can remember

one day, you know, like maybe a week or so after he had died. Dennis was walking through the empty kitchen.
And there was so much stuff. There was so much stuff.
Papers all over the place.

Junk mail all over the kitchen floor. And down in the basement.
Tools all over the place. You know, I had this moment of, you know, here are his tools, and

now I have them in my hand. And, you know, I just remember picking up this claw hammer and just crying because this is now my hammer.
This is now my house. This is now my

problem.

But a few days pass, and he starts thinking, okay, I can handle this. Yeah.
Just got to get in there, clean it out, sell it. Clean and flip.
That was the plan. So, at the age of 32, moves back in.

There was all this just junk in the basement. Puts that stuff on the curb, sale after sale after sale.
And one day he finds himself standing in the downstairs bathroom looking at the nasty floor tile.

It was just horrible. His dad had meant to replace it before he died, but you know, couldn't finish.
And my thought was, like, oh, just do this one bathroom so it looks pretty good to sell.

Problem was, his dad had never showed him how to do any of that stuff. It's at that point that I was like, oh, YouTube.
Now hold the tile in one hand firmly and begin with your ceramic tile network.

So he went online, learned how to tile, do some plumbing, and he redid the bathroom. And turned up pretty good.
It was kind of fun.

And then the next thing I knew, I was taking wallpaper off of the kitchen. So that's gotta go.
Hardwood floors, insulation in the attic, glass block windows in the basement. And pretty soon.

And that turned into the whole house. And how long did that take?

Five years. Actually, it was six.
Wow. And he says, the whole time he was doing this renovation at night, I would have these dreams where

my parents just kind of came through the back door and it was just like, oh, what are you doing here? Oh, that's right.

You're dead.

And then I would turn my back and then

they would have somehow undone all of the things that I did. Oh, they had brought the house back to where...

state it was in when they were alive. Yeah.

And I probably had this dream, I'm not kidding, like at least a hundred times. Wow.
Night after night after night. It just kept going on and on and ultimately kind of

drove me crazy. And so one day, after yet another one of these dreams, Dennis is finally like, all right, I'm selling it.
Puts it up on the market, starts waiting for a buyer. And then something

strange happens. Well, something kind of strange.
I had made this friend and she came over for the first time. That is like a date.
A lady friend? Yeah, it was a lady friend.

And so Dennis was giving her a tour, showing her all the improvements until she was in the kitchen. Right by the basement door in the kitchen.
When she was like, oh,

there's some kind of weird presence here. And I was just like, uh, okay.
Well, that was kind of a sign that was not going to last very

long.

But fast forward a few years. Didn't really think too much about it.
Until one day Dennis' realtor is having an open house. No one shows.
So she was in the house by herself.

And Dennis starts getting these text messages from her. It's like, dude,

your house is haunted. Like, I can hear people walking around.
And. She texted that there was definitely something weird going on.
Right by the basement door. Wait, that's the same spot? Yeah.

Yeah, I was like, ah, that's kind of weird. But then here's the crazy thing.

Not too long after this, Dennis bumps into an old friend of his, and he's like, hey, funny thing, two different people, two separate occasions, had come over to the house and they said they felt this weird presence and she was like wait right by the basement door oh get out yeah

okay so I've got Heather I've got Stacey I've got Carla all three who say they feel this weird presence would you consider yourself a bit of a skeptic about such things I would say so rationally I'm just I'm just gonna say no so you don't believe in ghosts no all right what happened next well this also happened to be right at the time that I sold the house dennis had finally put in some pen to paper signed a contract packed up all his stuff And so Carla, the girl that first felt this thing.

The girl he went on a date with, they stayed friends.

Said to me, like,

you know, I'm really curious about this.

Would you mind if I call like these ghost people to come and like check out this place? And I was like, well,

sure.

I don't care. You know, it's like, why not?

So very shortly, in a few minutes, actually,

we

are bringing paranormal investigators to find out what's in the basement. You know, I'm just kind of walking through the house.
I think I got this on tape, of just me walking through the house.

Like, well, you know, this is probably a waste of time, but I'm still kind of curious about it. Yeah, it's Friday night.
What else you got to do?

Right. It's a Friday night, mid-November.
Around 6 o'clock. I can see some cars parking on the street, so I go downstairs.
People start filing in. Maybe 10 people.
We all have different specialties.

Larry's our tech guy. About four techies, two sets of clairvoyants.
Chantal's the psychic. She's very gifted.
Who are all these people? Can I get you to just say your name? My name is Brittany Elaine.

Well, they're part of the Kansas City Paranormal Investigators Club or some kind of thing.

And pretty much right off the bat. When you guys came in, you were saying like you could talk to people

to get. But when we first got here,

we both saw a woman looking out the window

at the top.

what did she look like? I didn't really see what she looked like. She had like 80 blonde hair.
It was like gray and she was wearing one of those weird old tiny dresses.

Dennis was like, whatever. They set up cameras in the basement and in the kitchen.
And the clairvoyants decided they wanted to try to talk to this woman or maybe any other spirit in the house.

And so Brittany.

She sort of explained how she does things. You know, she was like, the best way that she could get them to talk to them was through flashlights.
Huh.

Yeah, so what they do is they take a few flashlights, turn them on, and then they unscrew the tops of them just enough so that they turn off.

And then they just kind of set the flashlights that are now off in the room by themselves.

And the idea is that if the ghost or the spirit wants to communicate, they can just sort of touch the top of one of the flashlights with their ghosty finger and that'll turn it back on.

When it's barely connected all they have to do is either push or pull a tiny bit of energy. I see.
So it's the it's not the easiest for them to do. And I'm just like, okay.
I guess we can.

So she took three flashlights and we all sat in this dark room in a circle.

Okay. And Brittany sets the flashlights in the middle of the circle by themselves.
No one's touching them. And she says, There's anybody in here? My name is Brittany.

I'd love to be able to talk with you.

Can you turn one of those lights on?

And we sit there. And we sit there.

Are you here?

Then all of a sudden this light

kind of barely blinks on.

And then she said, okay. Thank you.
Please turn it off.

And then it goes off.

What we can do with these lights here is if I can ask you. And then she says, we have three lights here.
The one you just turned on will call yes. Please turn on one more, and that will be no.

So if you could do that for us, that would be wonderful.

And then a second light comes on. No way.
Are you like scanning the room like looking for somebody who has like a little switch or something?

Yeah, but like we didn't pay these people, so they have no reason to fake this, I suppose.

But you know, I just keep thinking, well, you know, the house is really close to the train tracks, and maybe, maybe the train... The vibrations of the train.
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

But all of a sudden, they were like,

can you hear that?

Footsteps.

It sounds like there's somebody walking right here in front of me.

And they're going towards the kitchen.

And I could hear

dishes

rattling on the countertop

in the kitchen.

No one's in the kitchen? No one's in the kitchen.

If you're in the kitchen right now, can you turn one of these lights on?

And so they sit and stare at these three flashlights.

And then.

I am at this point leaving the room.

What happened?

Um,

well, uh, actually,

everyone in that room

died,

except for Dennis. Oh, God.

I have no idea why he even invited you into this building.

They did not die. What happened to them?

They're actually, they're fine.

So who have you?

It turns out that

there was a guy downstairs in the basement, one of the techies, walking around, pitch black down there, and he just bangs his head into like an air duct, and the sound just reverberated throughout the whole house.

Scared him a little bit.

It was very Blair Witchy. Yeah.

Anyhow, the techies decide that they want to get the three psychics down in the basement by themselves.

And so,

you know, these three women go down in the basement by themselves. We can kind of hear them downstairs talking, but we don't really know what's going on.

That was interesting. They come back upstairs.

How'd it go?

And they said...

The girl was downstairs. Well, she was definitely down there.
The old woman that they first saw when they got to the house.

And they said that she was standing down in the basement next to where the old furnace used to be. And they told Dennis that she said that she'd lived here for a long time.

And Dennis was like, wait a second. He knew that back in the 30s or something, a woman had lived in this house.
Who...

was kind of not all there. And one day she had gone down into the basement.

And thought she was picking lice off of chickens and throwing them into this big furnace that was downstairs in the basement at the time. She got a little too close to the furnace, story goes.

Caught herself on fire and then died there, I guess, in the basement.

But then there was another man downstairs who showed himself to me, but he won't talk and he just completely disappeared. What did he look like? He was bald.

He was about Rick's height, but it wasn't Rick's.

Do you have a bill

like me?

Yeah. A lot like me?

Not a lot, but similar, definitely. If I were to show you a picture of my father,

would you have any sense of this was him? If I saw a picture of him, yeah, maybe.

I found this the other day.

Dennis goes and gets this photo of his dad that he had that was left over from his memorial service.

Yep, that's the man I saw. Really? Yep.

Yep, that's a good idea. Let's pause this for just a second.
Like, you know, she's very hesitant at the beginning. Just like, well, you know.

I should jump in here really quick and just tell you that this was actually the first time that Dennis had ever listened to this tape. Really?

Yeah, and the reason is because for a long time he didn't want to listen to it. Why? Well, I think part of it had to do with this moment because...

This is the point where my skepticism kind of kicked off. And part of it had to do with what happens next.
That's coming up when we return.

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This is Radiolab.

Let's get back to Matt Kealty's ghost story and we'll pick up with our main guy, Dennis Conroe, having just heard from the ghost hunters that they encountered a spirit in the basement of his home who looks remarkably like his dead father.

Yep, that's the man I saw here.

So he's here. Yep, he's here.

A lot of talking around the other people.

Can we try to talk to him? We can try to talk to him.

I think he's in the basement. He's not currently bass.
Or here?

I feel like he went upstairs, not in the basement anymore. Can we go upstairs and just talk to him? Yeah, absolutely.

So,

you know, I hadn't really told them a whole lot about what the different rooms in the house were, but they led me upstairs to what was his room

and to the corner of the room where his bed was.

And they had no idea that that used to be. They had no idea.

And

I said to them, Okay, well, if he's going to talk, he'll just talk to me.

All right, Dad, are you here?

Nidia, turn on a light if you you are.

Thank you.

Thank you, Dad.

We're going to call that yes. If you can turn that one off now

and turn on the no light, any other light,

please.

I need to know that you're here.

There you go. Oh.

Thanks, Dad.

Do you want us to leave?

Dad, would you like these people to leave?

And just talk to me?

Yeah. Yes, okay.

We'll stay right here.

Dad, I want to know, are you in a good spot?

Are you okay?

Are you okay?

Are you okay, Dad? Yes. Alright, good.
I'm glad to hear that.

Okay,

everything off.

Everything's off? Almost.

Almost done.

Alright, thanks.

I'm gonna ask you this,

you know,

this

mom here too?

This

mom here too?

And

the other of the three flashlights lights up.

Yes, she is here. Alright.

Hi, Mom.

I want you to know that

if you're both here, that I love you very much, and I miss you both.

I have so many questions for you, but I can't ask

them all than just yes or no questions.

But I said, well, have you been able to see the things that I've done to the house? And

both of the lights lit up very brightly, yes.

And then...

So I've lived here for six years. I've redone the house.
I've undone a lot of things. You know, I said...
Rethink, are you happy with this? Are you happy with the things I've done with the house?

And they both lit up very brightly, yes.

And

I said, Are you proud of me?

So you're proud of what I've done,

who I am,

what I'm doing.

It's very radiant.

It means a lot to me.

So, in a few days, guys,

I'll probably never set foot in this house again.

And

I don't want you to stay here and feel like you belong here. I want you to go out and be free.

you

let

go of this house

or you

will like to finally move on?

Yes,

yeah,

I'm going going to

leave you guys.

I know that you've been haunting my dreams a lot about this house.

And I know it's very important to you. It's very important to me.

But

this is the time that

we leave.

Okay.

I think I need both.

So that's where it ends.

Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah.

Uh

that's how I recall it being exactly like that.

And

yeah, I kind of teared up a bit.

And keep in mind that this was the first time that Dennis had heard this tape. And so we played it back to him

because we just wanted to see, like, how he remembered that experience. Yeah, I guess

part of my fear of listening to it was that it would change it and that it would be a different experience. It would be a little more hokey and it would be a little more

unclear what was happening. But listening to it again,

it was as I recalled it being. Trevor Burrus So, in the end, does he believe he was actually talking to his dead parents?

Well,

no, no.

I ended up actually calling this guy who explained to me how this whole flashlight thing works, and that there is a perfectly non-paranormal explanation as to what's going on with the flashlight.

It almost feels bad manners at this point to have a practical explanation, but I'm very curious to hear it. Sure.
Well, what's going on is

you turn the flashlight on.

And when you turn the flashlight on, the bulb gets really hot.

Then you take the top of the flashlight and you unscrew it just enough that the flashlight flickers off. So the flashlight's off.

And the bulb, it got really hot. So the inside of the flashlight also got really hot.
And there's this little piece of plastic inside the flashlight that when it got hot, it expanded.

And now as the flat, since the flashlight's off, that piece of plastic, it starts to cool down and starts to contract. And when when it contracts, it pushes these two tiny bits of metal together.

These two little bits of metal come into contact, and that's your circuit. So the circuit opens, the light bulb, it goes back on.
Oh, then it warms again and then it gets hot.

Yeah, and so the little piece of plastic, it starts to get hot. It starts to expand.
It pushes the two pieces. And these people chose this flashlight because it had that particular property.

Yeah, do you think it's like a con or something? No, I don't think so. No, I don't think so.
I mean, I even talked to Dennis about this.

He's like, I think they're just trying to make sense of randomness. I mean, I don't think they necessarily know that this flashlight does this thing, and therefore they can manipulate people.

Here's why I don't think it's a con. Because in this case,

it's such a strange coincidence that whenever he wants his mom and dad, his ghostly mother and father, to approve of him and congratulate him and honor him with a yes.

I mean, it's random. He could get a no, but he gets a yes.
It's just chance.

And you told Dennis all this.

Yeah, I told Dennis because you told me to tell Dennis. It's true.

It's true. I forced him.
Okay, so when you told him, what did he say?

Well, on one level, like, it didn't phase him. Dennis basically said, like, look, I know.
I know that

the way that the world works is the way that the world works. People don't come back from the dead.
People don't talk to you through flashlights.

But he also said that, like, he's not going to let go of that experience. He wants to have it both ways.
I guess so.

I guess I want to have both, yes, this didn't happen, and yes, this absolutely happened. I understand that.
Yeah.

Because even if you are the world's biggest skeptic, if you don't believe in ghosts, like there really aren't that many ways to talk about these sorts of things, these sorts of things that we all feel.

you know, guilt for the things that we've done in our past, the loss of those who we've loved, that like ghost stories kind of seem to stick around because they are an experience, albeit like a metaphorical experience, but an experience that lets us talk about these things that we can't adequately talk about.

You know, that feeling of being haunted.

So did he eventually sell the house, move out? Yeah, yeah, sold the house, moved out. No more dreams of his parents haunting him.

Well... It's been odd in the time that I've sold the house.
Now

I thought the dreams would stop. And now the dreams are that I am the one haunting the house of the new people.

Where I will just walk in. Really? Yeah.
And just be like, hey, I'm here.

And are you like going around repairing things? Nope. I'm just like being somewhat shocked at what they've done to it.

It's like it never stops, you know?

Thanks, Matt. No problem.
Matt Kilty.

I'm Jad Abumrod. I'm Robert Krowich.
Thanks for listening.

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This is the robe, the view, the steam from your morning coffee.

This is the complimentary breakfast on the balcony, the beach with no one else on it.

This is the edit, a collection of hand-picked luxury hotels you can access with Chase Sapphire Reserve, and a $500 edit credit that gets you closer to all of it.

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Cards issued by J.P. Morgan Chase Bank, and a member FDIC, subject to credit approval.