Sawbones: Apple Cider Vinegar

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Hello, everybody, and welcome to Sawbones, marital tour of Misguided Medicine.

I'm your co-host, Justin McElroy.

And I'm Sidney McElroy.

I informed Sidney briefly before recording started that I was hungry.

And she told me that I would have to wait until after we recorded our podcast for me to have any yummy-tummy tempters.

That's right, Justin.

That's where I'm at.

That's where you find me.

That's the emotional state you find me, Sidney.

That's where I'm spitting.

Don't you perform better?

Like, I always thought it's that thing where before you go on stage, you should have to pee just a little.

Yeah.

Oh, of course.

To be just a little hungry, a little thirsty, you have to pee just a little.

In auditions, you would have to save it and you wouldn't pee.

And then, but, like,

I guess I have a different relationship with food than you do, Sidney.

For me,

food isn't just sustenance and a way of like breaking bed in community.

For me, food is medicine.

And I'm sorry, but like the sunshine comes from the sun and they bake it into the vegetables and then you eat sunshine and like that medicine.

You know what I mean?

For me, food is medicine.

Like cures like.

I eat cauliflower, which looks like my brain, and it make me smarter.

So food is medicine.

And it make me smarter.

And it makes me smarter.

Food is not medicine.

Food is food.

But food is is great.

Medicine is great.

Medicine looks like candy.

Explain.

Not all.

No.

Many medicine look like candy.

Hmm.

Candy food.

Interesting.

Yeah.

So we watched a series.

A documentary.

It wasn't a documentary.

Food is medicine.

Sorry.

I should mention I got all the wrong messages.

I sorry.

We watched a TV series.

It's a dramatized version of a true story.

What do they say?

It's a true story of a lie.

Yeah, a true story of a lie.

I think this is how they pitch it.

Yes.

It's called Apple Cider Vinegar.

There's actually, you know, Justin, since we started watching it and decided to do a show on it, there are several listeners who have since emailed and said, you guys should watch this series.

So thank you.

But we already were.

We already did.

We're there already.

I got to say, this is one the algorithm did get pretty quickly on us.

They clocked us.

It clocked this one pretty good.

You got us.

It's interesting because it is not very much about apple cider vinegar.

That's really not much about it at all.

No,

which is a whole thing, as we've talked about on the show before, in the wellness world.

Well, we did a whole show on vinegar.

Sure.

I think we did apple cider vinegar.

I'm pretty sure we did.

But we talked about vinegar, and I think we focused.

Apple cider vinegar tends to be the vinegar people like the most in the wellness world.

I think it's because it sounds pleasant.

Yeah, and it like apple, good.

It is, as we talked about, if you, if you're concerned about like the vinegary properties being the healthy properties, Apple cider vinegar is a weaker vinegar than a lot of other vinegars you may choose.

That's on the apple cider vinegar episode, though.

Oh no.

What?

Okay, we're recording this episode about apple cider vinegar, this TV series, and I am very much looking forward to it.

In the process of recording this episode, by which I mean right now in this moment, I'm remembering that yesterday the toilet was clogged and I dumped a bunch of baking soda and vinegar into it to unclog it.

You're supposed to let that sit for 30 minutes and then flush it.

And I did it.

Twist just still there?

It's still there, Sid.

Ah, dagnamit.

Okay.

Oh, beans.

That's going to be, that's going to be a whole kerfuffle up there.

Ah, man.

We got like 27 minutes before you get to address this, okay?

If 24 hours hasn't done anything, what's 27 more minutes going to do?

Just can you not let me forget?

I won't let you forget.

It's in there now.

Apple cider vinegar is the story

of a real life person,

Belle Gibson,

who

started a wellness app.

Movement.

And movement, would you say?

Yeah.

Community.

Yes.

Community.

Family?

Can I say family?

It felt like we were all part of the family, didn't it?

Based on a cancer diagnosis that she did not, in fact, have.

Right.

She told the world that she had cured herself of a malignant brain tumor using a healthy diet.

Yes.

And then shared the healthy diet with the world via an app and a cookbook.

Yep.

And then

was discovered to be a fraud.

How are you thinking, before we get into like the nuts and bolts of this whole story, how are you thinking of structuring this discussion, Sid?

Do we want to think about this as a mini series first and a true story second?

Or how do you want to go through this?

I kind of wanted to talk about

the sort of different archetypes within the wellness world that are well represented I think yeah by this TV series and I also wanted to discuss why

is this so effective I thought it was okay this is what made me really want to talk about this I was scrolling through TikTok and I saw uh some sort of red carpet event where they were talking to some of the stars of this series about

do you think someone could pull off a fraud of this level today?

With the internet the way it is in the year 2025, could somebody do this?

For sure, yeah.

Well, it was really interesting because some of the celebrities said, no, like we'd, we'd figure it out immediately.

We'd all like do our internet sleuthing and we'd know.

Right.

And there were several who made the counter argument, which I think I would agree with, which is, oh, I think it's easier than ever.

Yeah, I think, I think, yes.

In terms of scan, I mean, just to start out, I feel like AI right now would make it a lot easier to falsify, you know, medical documents, just as a place to get started.

Well, and I think that I think there is a

an understandable distrust of authority in all realms.

And I think that has bled over to the scientific and medical community.

And I think a lot of that is intertwined with our basic distrust of the American healthcare system, which is well-founded.

And so I think, but I think that's all very understandable and important to talk about if we're we're going to move forward in a way where we want people to know truth and make good decisions based on scientific truth and evidence.

I was really impressed to think of this as like a TV series first.

I think if you're a, if you're a sawbones fan,

I think a lot of this is going to seem familiar to you in the archetypal sense.

I think that you're going to see sort of like many narratives throughout this that you are going to be familiar with.

Like some of this probably won't come as so shocking to you.

A big part of it is seeing sort of the

exposing the tools and sort of scams that some of these like health influences are using.

And I think that that's something that we talk about a lot on the show.

But I think it does a really

it does a really humane job, I think, of looking at all of these different perspectives without necessarily trying to, I mean, it knows who the villain is, but it's not necessarily trying to

lay the blame on this one person.

I think it is recognizing that there is a system that has created this person and this whole problem rather than just this one bad apple.

Right.

And we can simultaneously recognize that a system has created a problem and address that system and try to improve it and make it better, but still hold the person accountable for the things they did.

Yes.

I mean, 100%.

You know, because

lying to people about curing cancer is a bad thing to do.

I just feel like I need to preface with that.

You need to say that.

Okay.

Well, I mean, because even if you find yourself at moments feeling some sort of sympathy for the main character, I mean, because at times I do think you're supposed to feel a little bad for her.

I still think it's important to know that what she did caused harm because there were people who saw that as an alternative to

actual cancer treatments and perhaps pursued them to their own

unfortunate outcomes.

So super quick before we get into talking about the details of the show itself,

we will probably talk about what happens on this Netflix series.

So if you have not watched it yet, you may want to

come back and like I said, this is based on true events.

So I don't know how spoilery it could be, but if you care.

In the TV series, we follow, I would say,

sort of three main arcs.

Is that accurate?

Maybe three or four, depending on how you want to count it.

Yeah, I really want to contrast the two main wellness bloggers, though.

Yeah.

Do you want to talk about, we talked about Belle Gibson.

Do you want to talk about the other sort of like

big wellness?

Belle Gibson is very much, she

whether she believes she has cancer or not, I can't speak to.

I'm not in her head, but she does not, and she is pretending she does, and then trying to promote a brand based on that.

The other character, Mila Blake, does indeed have cancer.

She is not.

She is fictional.

It's worth noting.

She is a fictional character.

She's a fictionalized compositive.

Yes.

She is based on actual people, but she is not.

She's not.

There is no Mila Blake.

So she does have cancer and does not want to go the route that the oncologists and her team of physicians who actually, you know, study and understand and are giving her evidence-based recommendations.

She doesn't want to go that route because it involves amputating her arm.

So she finds alternative therapies that make her feel more empowered and make her feel more in control of her body.

And so she chooses to go that direction.

And I think what's important to contrast is that Bell Gibson is one force we see in sort of that like pseudoscientific alternative medicine world where she's trying to get attention and fame.

and money.

Yes.

That's it.

Yep.

And I'm maybe she thinks her food's great.

I don't know.

But there is a very clear.

And it leaves the, it, it leaves,

I know I'm going to say this improperly.

So it leaves the door open for the fact that this is, this is a, she may believe it or she may not believe it.

Like it's not, I would say the show doesn't explicitly say these are all crafted manipulations.

This is the it leaves room for the idea that this is this is maybe a mind that is not functioning properly.

Right.

Well, and I think, you know, they kind of trace the history of her as somebody who, even since, and I don't know if this is true about the actual human, this is the narrative in the fictionalized story, is that even as a younger person, she would sort of claim illnesses like

she has a fake heart attack at one point.

There are things that happen as a way of dealing with emotional stress and emotional problems.

She displays physical symptoms.

And I think what's really important about that is that we live in a world that still does not allow a lot of space

for

psychological illness to be recognized and cared for and legitimized at the same way that physical illness is.

And so manifesting a psychological illness as a physical one in order for other people to pay attention to it, I think we can understand that, right?

Like we can see that and see, ah, I see why that would happen.

Yes.

And now, obviously, that doesn't mean we should build a fake cancer cure off of it, but I understand how we get there.

The other character represents, I think, the other force that exists in the sort of the alternative medicine pseudoscience world, which is the true believer.

Somebody who really heartfelt, genuinely believes that they have found a better, safer way, and they want to share it with the world.

And I think it's important to understand that both exist.

Yes.

And the tools they use are different.

And one can be a lot harder, I think, to combat and dismantle than the other i will also say it's interesting because the show really does put them on trial separately i think it it it doesn't conflate the two i think um mila's story is much more i think it's a little bit softer it's it's told in a more soft perspective it's not quite as like hyper kinetic in the way it's being shot and expressed like the editing on bell's scenes is so fast chop chop chop chop chop you see this mind that is constantly like grinding.

Mila's scenes are a little bit more complacent.

They're a little bit more like chill.

You feel that this is a real thing she's living with, but

it's not like, it's not showing you a good and bad, right?

It's not like, you know, there's actually a positive side of this too, because Mila is also...

put under the microscope, right?

You see how her choices affect, for example, her mom who decides not to pursue traditional cancer treatment and likely dies earlier as a result of that.

So I think that it makes you, you have to deal with her choices too.

You see the effect that Mila's choices are having.

Yes.

And I think in that sense,

both of our, and I think that's really important to recognize, both of these people have

illness.

Now,

The illness that Mila has is one that we can see and we can test for and we understand a lot more clearly.

The illness that Bell Gibson has, I mean, which I'm not going to sit here and diagnose her.

I'm not her doctor, but I think

to

lie and mislead to that degree as she does in the series, I don't know about the real human, but the character in the series, it seems like this character in the series has some sort of mental health condition that guides her to do these things, right?

And I think that's important to say because, again, part of I think what we're supposed to believe in the series is that the lack of recognition for that, the lack of help and treatment and care and consideration and understanding society has for mental illness leads to this.

Not always, of course, most of the time, never.

But I think that's part of the story.

Yes.

And I will say there is, you know, there are obviously like there's, there's a journalist who are seeking to uncover it.

There's family members.

There's friends.

There's also,

you alluded to a third story, which I think is important, which is someone who has been diagnosed with cancer, is going through traditional treatments, but is also being influenced by these bloggers.

Both of them.

Both of them.

In turn, yes.

And trying to decide the best way for herself to incorporate how attractive these ideas are.

I mean, you see it.

You see her being lured in.

as she is sitting and undergoing chemotherapy, as she is becoming sicker from the treatments she's undergoing for her cancer.

She is looking at these beautiful pictures of health and wellness portrayed by these bloggers.

And I think it is so obvious why someone would be drawn to that

when you see that.

I mean, don't you think so?

Like they're so visually contrasted.

It's just you saying it really hits it home, but there is a it's almost like a fetishization of vitality.

You know what I mean?

It's like, I have this and you do not.

Like this is available to you for money.

Although they don't make Mila explicitly about trying to get money.

That is not her goal, clearly.

But you do see the effect, I think, that

it is having not just on them, but the people around them.

You see, like, for instance, Belle's family

try to

you see how they sort of like have to incorporate her stories into their lives and the extent to which they have to to like believe and not believe these stories just to like get by day to day.

Yeah, her partner, really, you see him having to do a lot of,

I mean, I don't know if he ever believes her or not.

Yeah, it's like he decides to

that he's doing on himself, right?

Well, and but I do, and I think that, like you said, it is not clear.

Does like Mila's character is not portrayed as being after money or attempting to perpetuate a fraud.

She genuinely thinks she's found an answer.

Yes.

But then there is harm done by that.

And that's, I think that's well represented for both characters.

We also see, I think is interesting, the way that the medical community is portrayed in each of their stories is very different.

You get in

Mila's story, it is a very cold,

like the sort of

almost like a cartoonish version of like the cold calculating medical industrial complex telling her that the arm has to come off.

And that's just what the numbers say.

And there's no debate about this.

And, like,

it's funny watching it.

They clearly want you to kind of see from her perspective.

I think we've been doing this show for long enough that that is absolutely unfazing me.

It is not fazing me.

I'm like, yep, well, yeah, you heard them.

You heard the weird whole body of medicine.

They say it's got to come off, man.

Just trust them.

Just go for it.

Just do it.

Don't, don't, don't screw around.

Well, and but I think that's why it is important, though, to watch something like this as a healthcare provider and understand it is that in my mind,

if you look at me and say, you've got this kind of cancer in your arm, it hasn't spread any further yet.

If we cut your arm off, odds are it won't spread and you're going to live.

I won't even let you make it through the sentence.

Right.

Like the, and, and so, the way that the, the doctors are portrayed as being very much just like, it's your arm or your life.

What's the right?

I mean, I get it.

Like, I, I'm.

But there is no sensitivity being put forth, which again, that's stylization, right?

Like, that's heightened for, for

TV, but I think that it is a helpful way of like, I think this show does a really, really admirable job of trying at least to show several different perspectives without really leaning too hard on one, which I think it succeeds in in part because I felt like there were parts where I was kind of feeling like, all right, come on.

Like, we don't not need to be this sympathetic, right?

We could, we could be a little bit harder, but I think that like, that's probably a good sign that they're striking a good balance.

I want to, Justin, I want to get into a little bit of the nitty-gritty of what the two characters, like

what they are proposing as their cancer cures.

Yes, I think that's useful for our show.

But before we do that, we got to go to the billing department.

All right, let's go.

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Well, Sydney, I'm ready to change my whole vibration.

So, first of all, Belle Gibson is basically just promoting a really healthy diet.

I mean, more or less, that is.

Full of all those words that don't mean anything.

Clean, organic, non-GMO, all nonsense.

She talks about there's a scene where she is diagnosed using some sort of machine with some shady doctor in a

warehouse.

It's really shady.

He like hooks her up to electrodes and it's like

Dr.

Nick and he very much reminds me of Dr.

Nick from The Simpsons.

No, I thought his name was Dr.

Phil.

I don't, is it Dr.

Phil?

I thought it was Dr.

Phil.

Okay, you would know better than I am.

I was thinking Dr.

Nick from the, maybe it was because of his office that I was thinking Dr.

So there really was like Bell Gibson really did say at one point.

Sorry, yes, you're right.

Dr.

Dr.

Phil.

That there was a doctor who used some sort of quote German technology to check frequencies and found evidence of cancer in her body.

That

is like I couldn't, I was trying to find like a corollary.

Where's the fake medicine thing that's stemming from?

There are a lot of things like that out there.

So I don't think this is necessarily pointing to one specific, you know, there are a lot of those sort of monitors that they use to try to tell, like,

are you suffering from EMF damage?

And, you know, things like that.

So, so there's that.

The diet she's proposing, and she, in the Netflix series, she'll use like, it's a European slash German slash Russian slash basically just anywhere but here protocol.

Right.

It's the old, my dad used to call it the 500 mile rule.

It's for like, if someone worked in a field 500 miles or more away, then they're automatically an expert.

I think that that's absolutely with like

the further away, the better, right?

Because it's that that plea to exotic, like, you know, this is, this has got to work because it's from, from so far away.

And I think part of how they show, part of how they, the show attempts to prove that she is knowingly perpetuating a fraud, which I don't know, again, I have no idea about the real life human I am talking about within the fictionalized of the show.

Right.

Is that while she is promoting this very healthy, I mean, it's like gluten-free, sugar-free, you know, low, well,

anti-inflammatory, antioxidant, low, all the usual buzzwords that we throw out there.

As she is promoting this diet, we also see her like drinking alcohol and occasionally smoking cigarettes or like using drugs or eating chips at one point.

You know, like we see her engaging in activities that are not in line with this diet she's promoting.

What Mila is using, I believe, is Gerson therapy.

Is it a real

protocol they keep talking about?

Yes, Max Gerson developed this back in the early 1900s, like in the 1930s.

And this was a therapy as a way initially to treat migraine headaches and then tuberculosis.

And then it was one of those cure-alls that got expanded to anything that ails you.

Right.

And so the idea is that there are changes in our cells related to toxins.

This is like, it's toxins.

Toxins.

Everything causes toxins.

And so we need ways to cleanse our bodies of these toxins because our liver is so busy, it can't get them all out.

And so anyway,

the things we see the character of Mila doing are actually pretty classic Gerson therapy.

Like you drink 13 glasses of juice a day.

It has to be organic.

Of course.

They should be every hour.

So, like, every hour you're awake, you're drinking a freshly juiced glass of fruit and vegetable, right?

Right.

It is a vegetarian, pretty much diet.

Yeah.

Fruit, vegetable, grand.

That's unsurprising.

It would be wild if they're like, and then wrap every day up with a delicious cheeseburger.

There are a ton of supplements.

And I am certain that different proponents of whatever Gerson therapy has become in different places throughout the world now, because I mean, that's the thing.

Like you see the roots of this, like juicing and taking supplements.

How many diets echo this?

How many?

And I'm saying diet, by the way, how many wellness regimens slash diet slash, because it all gets, it's all the same thing.

It's all in the same place now, right?

Like you, you look at

wellness bloggers who will at the same time tell you how to be your healthiest self and lose weight as if those two things are automatically linked, which we know they're not.

And then the other part of it are enemas,

coffee or chamomile enemas.

These two are really enemas.

You know, early on, they're friends, but throughout the show, their relationship kind of falls apart and they become enemas.

Do you enjoy your enema joke?

No, it's stupid.

It's one thing when I joke.

I'm sorry, sit.

There is no, as you may imagine,

there are no studies that have ever indicated that this will treat or cure cancer.

Yeah.

Or anything to my knowledge yeah but certainly not cancer it does not mean that that those sorts of things aren't continually promoted by a lot of different again a lot of different like wellness type people today right um but that is that is the therapy that they are demonstrating i think pretty well on the show i mean that that sounds pretty close to what we see the characters yeah in the netflix special doing yeah

We see like,

and the Lucy character, who is the woman who actually has cancer, who is following these these two wellness influencers, and who is struggling with what the best thing for her to do is, also pursues kind of a third sort of natural therapy.

Yeah, that's weird.

That one's in the, it's sort of like an unrelated, I think, sort of, she seems like doing kind of a sweat lodge thing a little bit.

It's like a retreat back to nature sort of deal she's doing.

Yes.

It seems like she's doing drugs.

She's maybe doing some.

I believe she's on some sort of hallucinogenic.

Yeah.

Yes.

And kind of goes on some sort of journey of the soul.

Yeah.

As like a third path.

But I think what's so important is, first of all, as you're watching this broken down,

I feel like it is really clear to the viewer as you're seeing these people undergo enema after enema after enema and drinking glass of juice after glass of juice.

I feel like it seems so obvious that that won't cure cancer.

Yes.

I think what's interesting about her story is that

it doesn't seem seem to be that interested in whether or not it's curing her, but it is

how she is processing what is happening to her.

And I think that that's

inevitably, like, I think that's what the show is most interested in is like, how, how do you handle this?

Like, how are you,

how do you handle this in a way that doesn't hurt other people?

I think.

You know what I mean?

Like, how are you processing it?

And how do these other voices get into your head?

Right.

And I think there's also a really useful part where she is realizing her tumors are not responding to what she's been doing.

She goes into sort of like a

crunchy shop.

Looks like they sell like, I don't know, it's like hippie stuff and natural things to try to get her juices sold there.

Right.

And while she's there, the person behind the counter is like, ooh, try my black salve for this and sells her

a new.

It's like a reverse.

She like does the

full Nelson reverse.

Like, yeah.

Again,

I like the way it's all portrayed because you're seeing all of the differences.

There are people out there who try to take advantage of the desperate.

And then there are people out there who genuinely think they've figured something out and want to share it.

And then there's a lot in between.

And getting tied up in the morality of it all doesn't really help us, right?

Because here's the truth.

It is so obvious in that show why the way that the sort of medical system is portrayed is so unattractive to these patients.

Right.

Because one, when it comes specifically to cancer, our treatments are, they're unattractive to think about, right?

When they say like chemotherapy is poison, well,

many

chemotherapy agents are very toxic.

to your body in other ways.

This is a truth.

Now, does that mean that you shouldn't take them and they aren't your best shot at treating this cancer?

No, it's a risk-benefit thing, right?

Like that's the conversation you have to have.

But will they have side effects that will cause you illness?

Many of them do.

Not all, but many of them do.

And it's varying and it's not always as terrible as it might be portrayed in the media.

But certainly that is a possibility.

And so that's like a real conversation you can have.

But instead, it gets, you know, by the wellness people, it's dismissed as, well, it's poison.

Well, no, it's more nuanced.

But also on the medical end, me saying it's your only option

well that's not true it's what i should say is

it is the only evidence-based intervention that will that has a chance of giving you of treating this disease or giving you more time or whatever whatever our outcome is right that's what i should say but what i say is is our only option and what wellness people out there will will tell you repeatedly is well no it's not we got a hundred more options right there are always other options.

The question is, do any of them work?

And obviously, they don't, but that's not what they're concerned about because they get you to their wellness retreats, which are beautiful.

And you drink juice and everybody's happy.

And they sing songs and they meditate and they do yoga.

And it's very beautiful.

And they portray that so well.

Look how, and they talk about like taking control of yourself and taking control of your body.

And we love these messages and it's so empowering.

And in traditional medical medical treatment we don't say that to patients what we say is do this stuff or you will die right

we don't say take control of your body right

we say this is it and and in my mind as a medical professional that argument's enough like if you tell me it's either this or die i'll do it yeah you don't want to right

but i also am taking for granted the fact that i went to medical school i understand you're already in the pocket right like believe this

well i don't believe it.

I know it.

You know because I understand it.

That is, okay.

I think you're hitting on the gulf, right?

Yes.

It's the gulf between know and believe.

Right.

Because you know the truth.

You're nothing else is going to work.

And this may work, but I don't know.

But I know nothing else is going to work.

Or at least I know this is your best shot.

But if you don't believe that, then your brain is going to give you anything else, right?

It's going to give you any other

anything it can give you other than no.

It will give you, well, I don't believe what they're saying.

Okay, well, that's different.

You're having a different conversation at that point, right?

Yes.

Because belief doesn't even enter into it for you.

No.

No, I don't.

And that's the, I think that's the tricky part too, is that when we start to get into these conversations,

especially when it comes to advanced cancer,

very rarely are those of us in the medical profession offering you

a cure, right?

Like we're not, we're not offering you this will fix it.

We're offering you time and we're offering you statistics.

We're offering you odds.

We're offering you a little more or a little less of whatever, but we're not we're not offering you health.

Yes.

Right.

Right.

And on the other side, that's what they're offering.

Right.

And this starts to bump up against like, do you believe in miracles?

Do you have faith?

Right.

Is there a religious perspective you're coming from?

Also, is it true that sometimes weird crap happens in medicine for no reason that shouldn't have happened, that defies all logic and defies our entire understanding?

Yep.

Right.

That also does happen, right?

That's why, like, how often do you hear statistics that are this works 100% of the time and this works 0% of the time?

Like you almost never hear that because it's almost never the case.

There are things that defy the odds.

There are moments, but I will tell you this.

I think the problem with that conversation and the reason why we lose patients from actual medicine to these pseudoscientific sort of pursuits is that

we are uncomfortable talking about that because we don't understand it.

And so we brush past it.

No one ever got better because they did a bunch of coffee enemas and drank a bunch of juice.

We're not saying that.

We're not saying they divide the odds that way.

What we're saying saying is that occasionally, no matter how bad the odds seem, we are able to go through a series of treatments and people get better.

Right.

Or people get more time than we expected them to have.

That's what we're saying.

And I don't, I think we are so dismissive.

And I understand it because when I hear somebody say, but I bought this super expensive supplement from somebody who looked really nice online and they told me it would fix this, I want to scream.

And I'm not mad at the person who bought the supplement.

Your mom.

No, I'm mad at the person who sold it.

And I'm mad at all of the

pressures of the society that made that person capable of doing this.

And I'm mad at it.

And I don't want to engage with it.

And I don't want to explain why.

What I want to say is that's a ripoff.

That's a scam.

That won't work.

Listen to me.

I know what I'm talking about.

And that, I mean, everything I just said turned you off, didn't it?

What I just said, you don't want to hear that.

Well, not me, but I know you really will.

Well, there's no, there's no empathy.

There's no sensitivity.

I made you feel bad and dumb.

And now you don't want to listen to me because I'm the one who made you feel bad and dumb.

And this other person made you feel powerful and made you feel in control and made you feel smarter than all of us nerds in white coats who think we know best.

Can I tell you?

I think sometimes the medical community could take a note from what not to wear.

Because I feel like if you come on to what not to wear and they're like, that looks like trash, put this on.

And

they throw some clothes at you, and you're they're like, Your clothes are garbage, we're professionals, put these on right now.

You would never see an episode of what not to wear, right?

Because they've got it or queer eye, another great example, right?

Yeah, they don't throw the clothes and say, like, put these clothes on because they make you

you look like a dumpster right now.

I hate the way you look, put these on, they're good.

They don't do that because even though they know better, they got to walk you to it because they're trying to give you power, right?

And if they wanted, if they they threw like those clothes at people and they said, here, put this whole look on and now let us change your clothes and let's do all this,

they're going to have that same pushback against it, right?

Because they're not, you haven't brought them on board yet, right?

And it seems like that, a little bit of that onboarding and that empowering might be really helpful.

I think what you're, what you were talking about is one of the core medical ethics, which is autonomy.

And there is a, I think there's a misconception sometimes on our end as healthcare providers that autonomy is simply something I recognize.

You have the ability as my patient to make decisions about your own body.

That is your autonomy.

And I simply recognize that autonomy in the way I advise you, right?

But I think that there are many times in medicine where it is our job to give our patient autonomy.

It is an action.

It's not a passive thing.

I understand that in the face of this diagnosis, you have lost control.

My job is to hand you your autonomy back or at least help you find it.

This is something where you can assist your patient and say, it is your choice.

It is your body.

There are options.

Here's what they all are.

Here's what they each mean.

Yeah, I know none of these are great.

None of these are perfect.

And I'm not here to tell you exactly what you should do, but I will tell you what I think the best options are out there right now and what they mean for you in your life.

And I will answer every question and help you as you make these decisions.

but I think if we thought of autonomy more as an action

as opposed to just something that we should always be aware of we would be a lot more powerful in helping patients who face these kinds of diagnoses because that's what these people these wellness bloggers do they meet them where they're at

and we're not great at that always in medicine do you feel like Ebert said that um Roger Ebert said that films are a an engine to create empathy uh and obviously this isn't a film it's been serious but same idea do you feel like as a healthcare provider, this

gave you any like additional insight

into like how you communicate with patients or like some of that?

Like, obviously you've thought about that a lot due to this show and what you do at Harmony House, everything, you've thought about this a lot more than most people, but like, do you feel like you understand anything better having watched it?

I do.

I do.

I think the way that the doctors were portrayed, it was interesting because everything they said and did made total sense to me.

Didn't bother me for a second.

Like even when when they were just like, yeah, I know it's tough, but this is what you got to do.

And I know, I know that's not what we should say.

We should never look at somebody and say, this is what you have to do.

No, it's not.

It's not what they have to do.

It's what we think is best,

but we do talk that way.

And I can see myself at moments when I'm not at my best, I see myself saying, just take the medicine.

Like I see it.

Yeah.

And I know it's not how to best help a patient.

I saw Sid getting her hackles up, getting ready for some, like anytime there's like the doctors are represented in a poor light, I think that Sidney is ready to be defensive.

But I kept waiting for you, but like, it seemed pretty fair.

I mean, yeah, like you were kind of like, yeah, this whole stuff would say.

I'm like, yeah, I agree with them.

Well, and I understand because I could sense the frustration, especially as you look at like the character Mila's team of doctors.

Yeah.

The lead doctor is so frustrated by the end.

At least Sydney's already on that guy's side.

This random doctor that just has no name, has not appeared in the movie, is now like the hero of the whole picture.

No, but you can tell by the end, like he's going to lose this patient.

And he, and she didn't have to, like, that didn't have to be.

Messing up too, right?

Like, that's a, it's a systemic problem.

Right.

We are, we, because part of what we are taught, and this is a, this is a dysfunction.

Part of what we're taught is that my job is to keep people alive, period.

What's the end of that?

I mean, I can't make people live forever.

So ultimately, I lose every time.

And so I am now invested.

Are you saying saying what I think you're saying, which is you treat

you treat the disease, you win, you lose.

You treat the person, you win every time.

Is that what you're saying, Sidney?

Because if you're quoting Dr.

Patch Adams, noted West Virginian, Dr.

Patch Adams, as portrayed by a funny man Robin Williams on this show,

I am just going to plots.

So you're saying.

I guess I was.

I guess I was saying that.

I didn't mean to say that, but I guess I was.

And that's, that's the problem is that we take take it personally and we shouldn't and we're all humans and we're all just doing our best and if we were more humble in the face of what we don't understand and more humble in the face of a disease that we still don't know how to beat there it is and we all talk about that honestly and openly i think we can help guide patients to make better decisions for themselves and not fall into these traps which are this looks better i think it's a really good powerful lesson too that hopefully is like a new page that we're kind of turning over in the realization that being right isn't going to fix you.

Being right isn't going to fix the problem.

You can be as right as you want, and being right isn't going to fix this.

We got to figure out a way of communicating better.

Yes.

Like we can keep being writer and writer and writer, but until we're talking to people and meeting them where they're at, nothing gets improved.

You know?

and

I'm hopeful that that's what the conversation can kind of pivot around to.

Thank you so much for listening to Sawbones, this podcast that we enjoy doing for you so much.

Thank you to the taxpayers for the use of their song Medicines as the intro and outro of our program.

And thanks to you for listening.

We sure appreciate you.

That's going to do it for us.

Until next time, my name is Justin McElroy.

I'm Sydney McElroy.

As always, don't drill a hole in your head.

All right,

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