#228 David Rutherford - Navy SEAL & CIA Contractor

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David Rutherford, my best friend.

Welcome to the show.

Sean,

my best friend, thank you for having me.

It's an honor to be here.

Honor is all mine.

Honor is all mine.

Been a long time coming, man.

Difficult to quantify that time, isn't it?

Well, lots happened in that time, and, you know, we'll cover most of it.

But

I just want to say, man,

I love you so much.

And our lives

have been so intertwined since about 2002.

And,

I mean,

you put me through SQT.

We contracted together at CIA.

You introduced me to my wife.

You married us.

We've got a lot of history together.

We've got a lot of history.

A ton.

And you're just such a huge part

in me and my family's lives.

And

our families have become close.

And I love Johnna so much and your girls.

And

I'm just really thankful that you're here, man.

I appreciate that.

The feeling is mutual for sure and in deep, deep ways.

And you're the first guest in the new studio.

number one I was really hoping that would happen

but uh and now it's here so you ready yes sir let's do it everybody starts off with an introduction

Dave Rutherford founder of Frog Logic Concepts a motivational training company with clients like Bank of America UBS and Merrill Lynch you expanded into sports and supported Oregon State Baseball's 2018 College World Series win and developed a leadership program for the Boston Red Sox and Mookie Betts MVP quest.

Former D1 lacrosse player at Penn State, former Navy SEAL, served eight years in Naval Special Warfare, including a combat deployment to Afghanistan in 2002.

CIA contractor who deployed multiple times to high-threat zones like Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Author of two children's children's books and one adult book on self-confidence.

Hosted the David Rutherford show under the

Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Network.

Husband to Jana, father of four teenage girls.

You run a charity focused on operator syndrome.

And most importantly, you're a devout Christian.

And like I said, this

This is the most personal interview I'll ever do.

And

once again, it's just a real honor to have you here, to be the first guest in the new studio.

But most importantly, man, like I said, I just love you so much.

And our lives are so intertwined.

And

this is going to be big.

I love you too.

Everybody starts out with a gift.

You got any guesses?

Yeah.

What do you got?

Yeah, I want some full-blown THC gummies.

I don't want the legal in 50 states.

I want the legit ones.

Maybe you'll get the legit ones after, but those are the legit vigilance elite gummy bears made in the USA, legal in all 50 states, unfortunately for you.

But

you can take those on the plane back to Florida, give them to your girls.

And these things are going in my studio right up right next to my desk, man.

Right on there.

Thank you so much.

I appreciate that.

You're welcome.

And I got one other gift for you.

I personally picked this one.

Oh, my God.

Nobody's gotten this yet.

Oh, dude.

Oh, you're kidding me.

That is the Sig Sauer 211 GTO.

It's Sig Sauer's

2011.

It's been a long time coming, and

I love that thing.

The weight is perfect.

Nine millimeter, comes with her updated optic.

Oh, oh my god 21 in the magazine plus one in the pipe so 22 rounds wow maybe we can break that bad boy in today i think we should i think we should we should definitely can we do the upside down what you can do whatever you want

this is beautiful thank you man you're welcome you're welcome this is absolutely just a phenomenal gif

yeah i need this down florida because florida man's down there so

the florida man

this is beautiful thank you have you ever been the florida man

You know,

there's been one or two stories where

you could have called me Florida Man for sure.

Yeah, like, yeah, for sure.

Would you mind if

I gave you a gift, too?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love gifts.

All right.

It's my love language.

For sure.

I just,

you know, sitting in this chair is,

one, just the magnitude

of what you've brought to the industry and what you've brought to so many people in this chair and what you've given them and what you

have given so many other people, their families and their stories that will live for eternity.

And

as you said, our lives have been so intertwined that I wanted to give you something that that had a representation of that and so

thank you so much

this piece

so

my daughter Blair

did most of all the pastel work and then I drew the operator

and

um up here

this is supposed to be your daughter looking over the horizon where peace is down into the space where

i think all of us are always trying to get which is to clear out some of that white light that christ gives us in the midst of hell

And,

you know, I remember being in the teams, we, they always would say, all right, in case of glass,

in case of war, break the glass.

And so I put a little plaque on the bottom that said,

because of war, the soul is broken glass.

And

our journey has gotten us to this.

And I think there's some peace in our lives finally.

And it's through our families and through our children and through our faith.

And so I want to present this to you, brother.

I love it.

Cool.

I love it.

Man.

That's beautiful.

Yeah.

If you notice, he's got a little vigilance

little V tattoo

on his arm.

Man, that's really special.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Whose handprints?

Ah, that's that's Blair's

because it's that touch in the darkness that we're always searching for that grounding effect of somebody that can get us through that.

Man, I love this.

Yeah, man.

Look damn good here in the studio.

That's what I was hoping you'd say for sure.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

My pleasure.

Should we kick it off with a prayer?

I think so.

You want to lead?

No, that's all you, man.

This is your house that you built.

And I love when you pray over me and with me.

All right, let's do it.

Amen.

Jesus.

I just want to thank you for the opportunity to interview my best friend.

It took a long time for me to talk him into doing this.

And

I just want to thank you for the opportunity.

And also if I could just ask that

whatever comes out of this interview and it's going to get heavy, I know it will, but we just want to bring hope to the world and show that there's a way out of the downward spiral after

you leave service.

And

we also want to just, we want it to help even farther than that.

We want this to bring hope to

kids, adults, anybody that's struggling.

There's a lot of struggles that Dave has gone through in his life, and he just he always finds the way out.

And

I want to use that, use Dave's journey to show everybody that there's a way out.

And so

please just be with us during this interview and

keep us in line.

Make sure we're honoring you

and spreading the message.

In Jesus' name, amen.

Amen.

Thank you, brother.

All right.

We got one more thing, and then we're getting into it.

Okay.

So, I've got a Patreon.

You got a Patreon too, don't you?

I do, yeah.

And

so

Patreon's been with us since the very beginning.

Actually, before the show even started, when we started it in the attic, then we moved to the garage.

Remember those days?

In town.

And now we're out here in this beautiful studio.

And they're the reason reason that I get to sit here with you and that we were able to do this.

And so

it's turned into quite a community.

And

one of the things I do is I offer them the opportunity to ask each and every guest a question.

I haven't read this one.

The team wouldn't let me read it.

So this is from Gregory Lawton.

Dave,

with all the trouble Sean has gotten you into over the years,

how is it that you remained friends

oh man that's a great question Greg

you're a a unique person

and that was something that I've always been attracted to I've always

wanted and inspired to surround myself against people that went against the grain or were different.

And

you've always been that person from the first time I met you.

And those wild eyes that you had when you were 19 years old, man.

And there's just something different about you.

And then when we reconnected in 2010 and just on and on and on.

And the more,

the closer that

you've allowed me to get to you,

The more

I want to be closer to you.

You know, you're the closest thing I have to a brother without being my blood.

And

so

if you were like, hey,

let's go, you know, drive these motorcycles through that bar.

Let's go do this or let's do that.

I'd be like, all right, let's go.

You know, and I just,

it's easy to be your friend.

And it's, it's, it's

the hard stuff is

wanting to be more in your life, wanting to be with you every day.

And

thankfully

we talk regularly and

you listen and you share with me and you help me.

And I think when you have that, it's just you're willing to go to hell and back.

Or in our case, hopefully we'll get to heaven with each other.

I hope so too, man.

Yeah, man.

You know, Dave, I just want to say thank you, man.

And kind of touched on it before when we took our little walk.

But, you know, when I left, say, contracting, nobody would give me the fucking time of day, man.

Nobody would.

And I never really understood it.

But you were always trying to connect me to people or support what I did.

And I just feel like I never, um

I never gave you the credit or appreciated it to the full capacity.

And back then, you know, I didn't, I didn't realize how important

connections were and what you were doing.

But, you know, as

life has moved on, I am very in tune with that.

And I know what you were trying to do now.

I didn't know at the time, but I did know.

I know now.

And I just want to say thank you, man.

You're welcome.

It's just, it's been,

like I said, it's just been an honor, you know, watching you grow and watching you become who you are and the impact that you're having on this world.

And I just knew it was going to happen.

There's just, like I said, there's just something different about you.

A lot of history.

Poof.

Fought together.

Fought each other

several times.

Introduced me to my wife, married us.

You've mentored me.

And

it's going to be a fucking crazy interview, man.

It is.

But

so I want you to think of this as your legacy piece.

Thank you.

Your wife, your daughters, their kids, their kids' kids.

This is it.

This is your life story.

Thank you.

So we always start off with, where'd you grow up?

Man, I grew up in this beautiful little beach town in southeast Florida called Boca Ratone, the Mouth of the Rat.

Yeah.

The Mouth of the Rat.

The Breath of the Rat.

We moved there.

I was born in Pompano, and my parents had moved down from Michigan a couple of years prior and born in 72, and they moved to Boca in 73.

And it was a dream.

It was like, I don't even know, 15, 16, 17,000 people in Boca at the time.

It was that small.

Yeah, it was teeny.

Boy, how that town has changed.

I'm telling you what.

There was nothing past Military Trail, like nothing.

And it was wonderful.

It was the most idyllic place to grow up.

And I mean, I remember by the time I'm four or five years old, my longest, oldest friend, Richie, you know, we're riding bikes down to the beach and back.

And, you know, we're going over to Tommaso's Pizzeria and meeting my other friend, Mark Palermo, over there.

And

it was just, you just lived on our old BMX bikes and we played sports at the local community center.

And it was just, it was amazing.

It was really amazing.

So it was just a phenomenal place to grow up.

Brothers?

Older brother, Eric.

Yeah.

Really a special human being.

Yeah, just an amazing, amazing guy.

You know, he was my, my idol, my hero.

I think

he was the person

that really pulled out the artist out of me.

You know, you don't, you don't know if, who you are, what talents you have when you're little.

And my brother's five years older than me.

And I just have these vivid memories of

sitting around.

and just drawing with him.

You know, and I'd, I'd draw my little army men and my X-Wing fighters and he'd draw these cool animals and, you know, like lions.

And he just had this gift.

And it was, it was really special.

You know, he was just an amazing, amazing guy for me,

you know, up until a point where kind of his life kind of changed.

So.

How about your parents?

What do they do?

So my father was an attorney.

You know, it's funny after

they,

when they graduated Michigan, you know, my dad, my mom was pregnant.

My dad had a job already, you know, worked at a factory, went to law school,

both at the same time.

They had a newborn kid.

They were just kids themselves.

They're, you know, 22, 21, 22 years old.

And,

you know, it was either my dad's parents had moved out to California and my mom's parents had moved to South Florida.

And my dad got hired by a firm in L.A.

and hired by a firm in Miami.

And my parents, my mom was just like, I don't want to go out to California.

You know, there's too much going on out there.

Some of their friends from college had gone out there and struggled.

And so they moved to Florida.

And,

you know, my dad was in the grind.

You know, he was a new hire.

And so when they decided to leave that and move to Boca, my dad, with a few other guys, started his own little law firm.

And he was like, I think the story is like, he was one of 19 lawyers in the Boca Bar, you know, and it was, I mean, this place was teeny.

And my mom was amazing.

You know, she was a big time tennis player.

So, you know,

every day in the summers, I'm, I'm going to the tennis courts with my mom.

And, you know, she's trying to make me love the game.

And I'm throwing my racket and I want to play.

And, but like, I just, I was, just followed her around everywhere.

And, and,

you know, I remember going to the beach club,

not what it is now.

It used to be just this teeny little thing over on A1A

and

going and eating those creamsicles, right?

The orange creamsicles and swimming races that my brother would win.

And it just grew up on the beach and kind of chill.

They were pretty incredible parents.

They are still incredible parents.

Both of them are 80 now and still live in Boca.

And like I said,

it was a wonderful experience.

You know, my dad worked his butt off.

You know, he was for when he was trying to build the firm, he was a seven days a week guy.

I remember as a kid, we would.

You know, most dads are taking their kid and they're going to the field or, you know, throwing baseballs or t-ball.

My dad's taking me to his office and where he's working on his cases.

And he's like, here, take this dictaphone and play with that.

You know, I'm sitting there recording stupid messages and crawling underneath his desk.

And, and then afterwards we'd go do something fun, you know, and, and, but I just,

it was, it was special because they really cared about their community.

That was, I think,

of all the things

about them as a couple that really made the biggest impact for me was how much they loved.

where they were from.

They loved their community.

And, you know, my mom was in the junior league.

She's one of the founders of Boca.

You know, my dad, God, he was big in the United Way.

He was on the hospital board.

They ended up starting all kinds of different charities in Boca Raton.

And they really loved the community.

And I grew up with that.

And it was, I was proud.

I was really proud to be from Boca Raton.

I was proud of my parents.

You know, I remember my dad, when we got a little bit older, he started making a little bit more money.

He belonged belonged to his first like golf club and poor guy would be like, hey, let's go play golf.

And I'd go because I love to drive the golf carts.

Right.

And so I just do donuts on a golf cart.

And then I'd whack or whatever and chuck my club in the, in the whatever.

And just,

but he, he would always in those moments, that's when my dad, who's a

very intense cerebral guy.

He's a, he's an intellect.

My mom's the athlete, right?

She was a, won a couple couple state championships in tennis when she was a little girl and you know really talented athlete.

My dad was the intellect.

And we would get on out in the golf course and he would say things to me like, David, you should be a Renaissance man.

And I'd be like, I don't know what that means, but sounds kind of cool.

Yeah, that sounds good.

Well, I'll be a Renaissance man.

And, or he'd say like, you know, always be your own boss.

And I had no idea what that meant.

Or he'd be like, you know, integrity is everything.

You know, and he would, he would give me these, these

lessons constantly.

I mean, I remember when I was probably six, seven or eight or something like that, we would, on Sundays, he would break out a chessboard and

he'd set up the chessboard and, you know, he'd put some cassette tape in, some jazz or, you know, a guy named Filonius Monk.

And I'd be like, what the hell is this?

You know, and, and then we'd play chess and then after that he'd he'd flip on 60 Minutes and we would watch 60 Minutes you know and he would always say the world's a bigger place than you can imagine and it's important to understand what's out there you know and I think the combination of that

that

that wisdom like be a Renaissance man but go explore the world really kind of settled in and it was a it played a big role in in my young adult life and

so it they were I think it still plays a big role in your life and I've never stopped like that was the defining influence I think was to pursue that kind of that kind of mentality to to look at the world in that capacity were you competitive as a kid oh

dude

You're competitive now.

I lived real competitive.

I lived, eat, sleep, and breathe sports.

That was it.

That was my thing.

And it was, you know, flag football, t-ball, soccer, tennis camp,

anything that I could compete on a team with.

And I just gravitated towards it.

And, you know, that ended up really,

really saving me in multiple ways

in my childhood for sure was that, that.

escaping into those sports and kind of getting lost and into some of the other things that that emerged in my childhood.

Saving you from what?

My life was about perfect, really perfect until I was about eight or nine years old.

And then my brother, around 13 or 14 and 14, started changing.

When he was 13 or 14.

When he was 13,

something changed in him and the household started to change.

I mean, and I was just like, oh, I guess he's just a teenager.

I don't know, you know, and

he was an athlete too, and big football player, ended up being, you know, captain of his high school football team and all that.

And, and, but the house changed.

And it really, um,

when he was 15 is when it, it, it kind of, I don't want, I don't want to say it shattered kind of the

bubble that that we were living in, but it certainly, it certainly cracked for sure.

At 15, he came out to my parents as gay.

And

you got to imagine this was 1982

and kind of the height of the AIDS epidemic.

You know, there was a real,

I don't know, maybe animosity or bigotry.

I don't know what the appropriate, but, you know, I think most people were just afraid of homosexuality.

And they thought if you you know stood next to a gay person then you're gay or you were friends with someone or and i think

he was really in this predicament in this small town um came out to my parents and my parents didn't handle it as best as they could have you know they're from you know michigan my mom's from muskege and my dad was from detroit and you know, very conservative growing up.

And all of a sudden,

your 15-year-old son tells you they're gay.

What are you supposed to do?

And how are you supposed to act?

Because there's no playbook for that.

I mean, now I think it's, it's so much different.

It's so much more accepted and supported, which is wonderful to see, you know, and, you know, people being able to live their lives in that capacity without, you know, without.

any type of attacking or like there used to be.

I mean, it was, it was pretty harsh back in the day for sure.

And so for for him to come out and then my parents not being able to know how to embrace it or to get behind him to help him to help navigate, I mean, to live in this space.

And in fact,

they kind of pushed back on it in a pretty heavy way.

In order, I think their initial concept was to kind of to protect me.

And so they really...

kind of mandated that Eric didn't tell me and didn't kind of live, wasn't able to live openly as gay.

And as a result of that, I think he spiraled pretty deeply.

And, you know, next thing you know, he was partying pretty hard and really pushing the envelope and going down to Fort Lauderdale.

And also, remember, this is the age of,

you know, South Florida in the 80s was.

Cocaine epidemic.

That's right.

That's right.

And

he.

got consumed in that abyss of where he was and didn't know how to break out And

had a few people, I think, in high school that were quiet and supported him.

This person, Sean, and then eventually this woman, Catherine, who he's still friends with today, he met at a drama.

He was into theater and

very

wanted to go to

theater school and college and wanted to pursue the arts in that capacity too.

He's very artistic as well.

How did the household change?

What changed?

The arguments, the yelling,

his state of mind.

It was just, you know, one minute I had my brother there, and then the next he was gone.

And so it was almost...

You felt like he was gone.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Why did you feel like he was gone?

Did you understand?

No.

At eight?

No.

Well, I didn't know then, but 15 is when it really exploded.

is where just the fighting that they would get into and you know he wouldn't come home on weekends

wouldn't, his grades would struggle, or he and my dad would just go toe to toe over and over and over and over

and

just screaming.

And

I just

was like, what the hell is going on?

And unfortunately for me, I blamed him, which was incredibly difficult, you know, now

our relationship struggled for several decades, many decades, as a result of just

me being like, why can't you, you know, why can't you get squared away?

Why can't you fix this?

Why can't you bring calm back to our house?

And

without knowing that it was really about his own frustration and the lie, he was being forced to live somewhat.

And,

you know, for me and him, it almost became non-existent.

There was no relationship anymore.

At what age did that happen, at 15?

He was 15 and I was 10.

You were 10 years old?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Have you guys ever mended that?

I think we're trying.

We're really trying a lot harder.

I think

me going through my divorce was a moment he really stepped in and was there for me in a big way.

And so since then, we've really, really tried to.

work through it.

And I also think, you know, the age of my parents now

is another time, you know, when you're, it's like, whoa, they're at the space.

And, you know, he lives in New York City with his partner, James.

And,

you know, that's, there's a gap and they have very busy, very focused lives.

And, you know, he's in the event business and James is a very successful in the fashion business.

And, and that's their life.

And so, you know, as my parents have gotten older, it's like, hey, man, I need your help.

Cause, you know, we live just, we live about two minutes away from him.

And, and he's been wonderful.

wonderful and so i think now we're really starting to to realize he's he's really he matured a lot faster than i was because you know after he left home at 18 he moved out to california essentially didn't come home he was done he was you know he had moved out and

the thing that really i think triggered

his journey in a deep, deep way was when he finally got sober.

And he's been sober almost 40 years now.

And 40 years, yeah, yeah, he just turned 57.

And I think he was like 22 or something, like 22, I think.

Wow.

And

so he's been working on himself.

And imagine being in the fashion industry.

And he wanted to be a model when he was a kid.

You know, it's crazy.

I did some child modeling when I was a kid.

And you did child modeling?

Yeah, dude.

For whom?

Burger King, Skippy Peanut Butter.

Burger King?

Yeah.

Hold on.

I got to hear this shit.

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Yeah, yeah, crazy story, man.

How the fuck did you get into bottling?

Dude, me and my buddy, Chris, were riding their bikes in our neighborhood.

I drove by and this woman in this Cadillac, a Mary Kay Cadillac, screams out, come here, honey, get over here.

And I'm like, what do you want?

You know, and so we go over and she goes, have you ever thought about modeling before?

And I'm like, could you imagine if that happened today?

No, no, you're going to jail, right?

And

I was like, I don't know what you're talking about.

She's like, where do you live, honey?

And so I, you know, rode the bike and she drove her car and came over and asked my mom, you know, I think your son would do pretty good in the modeling industry.

I'm doing this fashion show at the Boca Hotel.

You know, do you think he'll want to be in it?

And my mom's like, yep.

And next thing you know, I'm walking this runway.

I don't even know how I can't picture you doing this at all.

Dude, it was crazy.

It was crazy.

Cause then that led to, I got this, she introduced me to an agent down in Miami.

Next thing you know, I got on it, went on all these calls.

I started getting these commercials.

I'm going down.

I mean, my sixth grade year, I think I missed 80 plus days of school going to my modeling and doing.

Are you serious?

Yeah.

It was crazy.

And for me initially, it was awesome because I got out of school.

I hated school, right?

I'd be back in time for sports, for practice.

And I was making pretty good money.

So any Star Wars action figure I wanted or G.I.

Joe, I could get it.

So we'd drive down.

It was hilarious.

She'd pick me up from school.

You know, we'd go to McDonald's and then we'd drive down.

I'd usually fall asleep.

I'd go do, she'd drop me off at some studio in Miami.

I'd shoot, you know, a print job or something and for Burdines or something like that.

And, or go do a Burger King commercial.

And my favorite one was Skippy Peanut Butter.

I met Annette Funicello from the old Mickey Mouse Club.

That was cool.

And then we'd come home and we'd always stop.

And initially, we'd stop at toy stores.

And I loved action figures, right?

And then, or she'd stop

at, eventually then it became the

Army Surplus store.

There was one in Fort Lauderdale.

And when I started, you know, becoming fascinated with John Wayne and war movies, probably I was like eight or nine years old.

And then I'd, you know, I'd stop and I'd get a ninja outfit or some throw-in throwing stars and you know back then you could only get them in in these these uh army surplus stores and yeah it got to a point one one time i was the the closest i i got to really kind of

being really successful was i was in the final there was a movie called cocoon back in the day and

um i got to the final is me and the kid who actually moved went in the movie and he got the role and you know went you know shot this huge huge movie and, you know, it was about like alien forces and stuff.

And, you know, it was, it was

cool.

But right after that, it, it became, you know, I became a pre-teen and a teen and it became uncomfortable at that point.

And I didn't want to do it.

I just.

Why'd it become uncomfortable?

I felt like I was missing out on my friends.

and hanging out with them.

And

I just, I didn't like it.

I got frustrated with it.

You know, even though, you know, you're making money, like I'd rather, you know, be in school, get out of school, go to practice, play in my teams.

And it was, it was problematic.

And then also, like, when you go on and anybody who's been in any component of the industry, like it, there's nothing glamorous about it.

You know, you're sitting and they pin your clothes and you have to sit still for five hours while they shoot all the shoots and get all the shots they want.

And, and I just got to the point, I was like, mom, I hate this.

I don't want to do it anymore.

And, and then that was it.

And so I stopped.

But yeah, that was right around probably 14, 13, 14 is when I was like, I'm done.

But it was incredible because,

you know, we went through a

really, my dad's law firm kind of imploded.

when I was graduating, when I was a senior in school.

And so out of nowhere, I ended up, I wanted wanted to do a fifth year of high school.

And so all that money I had saved up was, I was able to pay for a portion of that experience.

And so,

you know, it goes back to that idea that you go through these things at certain times and you're not sure what it's going to mean or how it's going to, what it's, how it's going to affect you, but it's going to affect you.

And I think.

understanding that the lesson isn't immediate, like that's when that stuff started, in particular with my brother.

You know, that was, I didn't understand what was going on.

I didn't,

I didn't, I didn't get it.

I didn't understand why he didn't want to be around me.

And as a result of that, I, that's when I really

leaned in and started to realize that I wasn't going to get what normal brothers give each other.

And so I had to go find it.

And

probably around, it was like 13, 14 where I kind of figured that out.

And so I really developed strong, tense relationships with my friends.

And, you know, Richie was one,

Chris in

middle school and high school, another Chris in high school.

And these, they became my brothers.

And that was meaningful for me because I just, I didn't have a sibling.

You know, once he left in 85, he was gone.

And he'd come home occasionally, but it wasn't like, oh, hey, Eric, let's go hang out and do things.

And,

and then, yeah, so it was, it was, uh,

you know, you're in one minute, you're in this

idyllic world, and then the next, there's chaos around you.

And so for me, the way I managed that was I just dove into my athletics and really was like, this is it, this is what's going to save me.

And so it was essentially football and lacrosse became everything to me, especially football.

Why do you think you and your brother Eric haven't mended things up 100%

by now?

That's a great question.

It's been over 40 years ago.

Yeah.

Do you hold resentment?

No, not anymore.

I think once John has been amazing, I just, for me, it was like, what did I do?

You know, I think that was what it was for many, many years.

I mean, and listen, we couldn't be more diametrically different, right?

right you know he's in the fashion industry i was a navy seal right he's gay I'm not, right?

He, you know, is an activist.

And, you know, I'm, I do almost a political show for, you know, the, the, the right.

And so I think that separation.

And then, you know, obviously when I went into college, I did not mature.

My emotional intelligence was pretty shiny.

We can talk about that.

But, and then in the teams, it was, it was even more complicated because I, you know, I was in San Diego almost the whole time and he was up in LA.

And I think we saw each other in the seven years I was in San Diego.

I think we saw each other six times.

And,

you know, he never once came to visit me.

I was always driving up there.

And, you know, the one time he was in San Diego, which was a kind of crazy story with

Charlie and Rick.

And it was a Super Bowl thing that went haywire.

Maybe that's for a different show.

But let's hear it.

Right now.

Yeah.

Oh, God.

This is definitely a right turn right now.

It was Super Bowl in San Diego.

What was it?

2002.

Are you talking Charlie Melton?

Yeah.

Oh, boy.

And Rick Slater.

Oh, boy.

And so.

You wanted the whole story?

Yeah, man.

I had

the combat deployment happened that summer

was really struggling from that, really struggling period.

Came, went home over Christmas, got engaged, came back.

And my brother is an event planner.

He's one of the biggest.

He works for one of the biggest companies in the world.

And he is the man.

Like he put,

if there's a New York premiere for F1 to Brad Pittman, he did that.

He ran the whole thing.

Like he's amazing at what he does.

He's, he's got so many gifts.

And so he was an event planner back then, and he was working for the NFL Experience.

And so, he called me and he's like, Hey, man, we're going to be in town.

And these are like massive black tie parties, and they were going to have it on Miramar Air Base,

right?

Kind of fuse it in.

The war had just been going on for a year, and they wanted to co-mingle, and it was in San Diego.

And

so, he's like, Hey, do you want to go to this thing?

And I'm like, Yes, I do.

And

I forget when he,

this was like, I think he called me that,

it was almost that Friday.

And Charlie and I had started a bender that Friday.

And I think it was Saturday night.

We drank pretty much all through the night.

Next morning, woke up, started going.

And

I don't know how Rick came over and I'm like, hey, man, you want to go?

And he's like, yep.

And next thing you know, it's the three of us.

So, I mean, Charlie's 6'566 to

sixty five to seventy right rick was six three to

you know 235 and and me and

and we go to this thing and we actually put a button-down shirt on and we go in and we go we're early we go on base we go right to the bar and just start getting after it right getting after it well

You know, I'm, I'm, the guy is always kind of trying to stir the pot.

And so I'm looking around.

I see these guys over here and I walk up and say, hey, how you guys doing?

What's up?

You want to have a drink with us?

And like, yeah, come over.

And,

and

this guy, I'm talking to him.

And he, he, he runs small venues, like little stadiums, like little soccer stadiums or whatever.

And I forget where he ran them, but, and then he had his head of security guy there with him.

And

I'm talking to him.

The other security guy was over with Charlie and Rick at the bar.

And the guy tells me, oh, yeah, he's a Vietnam vet.

And I was like, no, that's awesome.

That's really cool.

And he's like, are you guys in?

Like, yeah, we're in the Navy.

And he's like, oh, okay.

And he's like, you know,

he was a Navy SEAL in Vietnam.

And we're like, I'm like, get out of here.

Are you kidding me?

I was like, yeah.

So I immediately go right over to the bar.

I'm like, hey, dude, I heard you're a SEAL and you were in Vietnam.

He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I was like, oh,

what buds class were you in?

And he was like, wow, it's, you know, it's top secret.

And so,

it starts, right?

And I'm like, oh, it was, oh man, that's cool.

I go, I go, so tell me, you know, some stories, you know, and I was like, and these guys weren't in it yet because I didn't want to, I had to build it up, right?

And this was back in

the different days of my, what fascinated me.

Right.

And

he ends up telling me all these stories, how he did the secret stuff in the Laos and Cambodia.

And I'm just like, this is really cool.

But then I ask him a couple quantifying questions, you know, and

like, do you know Rudy Bosch?

And that's right when Survivor was on.

So it was the biggest TV show.

Rudy's a legend, right?

He's one of the most famous Navy SEALs ever.

And he's like, nope, never heard of him.

I was like, okay, cool.

I was like, hey, come over and meet my buddies, you know, and it's like, you know, I want to tell them about your stuff.

So I brought him over.

They're three sheets that'll win.

And

I come over and I'm like hey you know and and I start telling him and and

Rick looks over and he goes do you know Master Chief Gallagher another legend team two legend in the teams like the man right I got a chance to meet him at at one of the reunions down at the um

chief watson patches uh has this little uh marina down by the the the museum and got to meet Master Chief Gallagher.

They were also, it was the coolest thing ever, these Vietnam guys just sitting around shooting the shit.

And And he's like, no, never heard of him.

You know, and Rick's like, get over here.

You know, pulls him in, gets in his face and is like, you know, you're, you're fucking lying right now.

And we know you're lying.

So you're going to drink until I tell you you can go.

And so we're just, you know, Charlie's just like, boom, boom, boom.

And then, you know, then he's, you know, then I forget who it was.

He like finally is like, I'm out of here.

And like bolts.

And the guy, like they disappear.

And so now we're laughing and just, you know, slamming.

Next thing I know,

I go over and,

I don't know, I got a cigar or something.

I don't know how.

And I see my brother beelining towards me.

And he looks pissed.

And he's got some person, some woman with him.

And he comes and he's like, get over here.

And so they take me behind the curtains.

They're like, did you, this woman, like, did you threaten these people who paid money to go with your drunk friends?

You got to get out of here right now.

And I'm like, I didn't do what, you know, and Eric's like just shaking his head like, you idiot.

What are you doing to me?

Right.

This is my job.

You just threatened somebody.

And I'm like, I didn't say, you know, and we come out and the Marine MPs are there.

And there's like 10 of them, right?

Because they heard there was SEALs, right?

And they're always, they're going to overwhelm in force.

And so they're like, all right, gents, you, you, and you.

And the three of us got escorted off Miramar base and

barely got away with almost destroying my

brother's, you know, his event.

So

yeah, that was.

But anyways, going back to

the relationship.

I don't, I'm,

you know how you you get into those moments where you're not sure what the solution is.

And

you kind of dig into

a state of mind or you dig in more so into a state of emotion.

And you lock that emotion in, whether you're protecting yourself or you're trying to

rationalize your behavior because it doesn't feel right,

but you don't want to back down because of how hurt you've been or how wrong you are

or whatever the context for your shame.

And

I suppose I couldn't get out of that.

I suppose I was probably...

You felt shabby.

Yeah, as I got older, for sure.

What did you feel shame about?

That I wasn't there for him.

That I couldn't help him.

That nobody gave me the opportunity to

be like you know Eric I don't care if you're gay like you're still my brother I love you how can I help you

I mean there were several times I mean I didn't even he didn't even tell me until I was in college and he was older like we sat down one time he's like you know I'm gay right

and I was like I didn't know but I assumed and and I had gotten into a couple fights with my friends who had said something when I was in high school and I was older, like, well, yeah, at least my brother's not gay or whatever that is.

And, and, you know, got into it a couple of times with friends as a result of it.

And,

you know, that shame of not being able to support him, not being able to be there for him.

And then, you know, over a while,

Because I wanted his love, you know, I wanted a relationship.

I just, I didn't, I didn't know,

I didn't know how to process the entirety of those emotions in a way that

what you're freed from those that shackle of shame.

What would you say to him right now?

Oh, that I love him dearly and that I'm proud of him and that I admire him.

And that I'm grateful that we're close.

You know, we were just up in New York, and I had an event up there for my firm.

And we decided, and this was after we'd spent a week in Maine with all of Jonna's family, her immediate family.

It was like 18 of us, right?

Wonderful, amazing people.

And I'll talk about them later.

And so I had this event.

And so Jonna was, well, why don't we go to New York and see, you know, Eric and James?

And I was like, yes, absolutely.

And

he's just so good with the kids and so caring for us.

And he gives us so much.

And this is a guy that's moving at a thousand miles an hour.

I mean, he's putting on, you know,

or spending million dollars on these premieres.

And he's running the whole thing.

And so constantly grinding.

But he makes the time and he comes and he goes to lunch with us and he has dinner with us.

And so we were able to celebrate my birthday dinner up there.

And

just, I think it's the presence that

I think I want more of, just to be with him, near him, and just so we can sit in that

long space to try and fill it in.

I think.

And so I love him and I just I'm looking forward to

our relationship growing stronger and stronger and stronger.

And particularly just being in a space where we can rely on each other.

That would be, that would be, you know, the dream.

I hope that happens, man.

Yeah, me too.

Let's move on.

All right.

What got you interested in the military?

Oh, my God.

Actually, you went to school first.

I did.

Four years of college.

The jump from 17 to 23 or 22

was...

Was really intense.

It's where my world really collapsed for the second time.

You know, my dream had always been to play Division I football.

Like, that was, I was the guy.

I went to, you know, quarterback camps up in Indiana every summer.

I, University of Michigan football camp.

I, you know, I loved it.

I just, everything about the game for me is, is, just makes sense.

I love the camaraderie.

I love the tactics.

I love the arduousness of it.

I love the pain that you feel.

I love the

competition of of it, right?

The grittier team wins, the closer team wins.

And that's really, I think,

what shaped who I am fundamentally the most was that sense of camaraderie that exists within a close team.

And so, but my senior year,

we went 0-10.

We didn't win a damn game.

In fact,

my last game against our arch rivals, I can't believe I'm openly talking about this on your show, but I think we've got beat like 64-0.

And

they knocked me out of the game twice, like hit me so hard on a blind side, cracked my helmet open.

And I mean, it was

the culmination of my whole childhood focus on football, you know, came collapsing down in an 0-10 season.

And that really put me into a panic.

And

it was

it was a guy at school at St.

Andrews who his name was Gary Niels.

He's one of the most, probably one of the most significant influences I've had in my life as a young man.

He was

the

MVP of the 1977 NCAA Division I lacrosse championship.

He was a goalie from Maryland, and he had come down from a school up north, and

he was my assistant lacrosse coach, and he was the, you know, the dean of students.

And I just looked up to him and I think he had brought it up to me.

It was just like, listen, there's this thing called the postgraduate year.

And a lot of guys up in the Northeast, you can do this fifth year of school.

You grow older, you get stronger, you play another year sports, you get another year high school, and then you go to a better school or bigger school.

And so I brought this up.

My parents were like, do you want to do this?

And I was like, yeah, if I can, if it gives me an opportunity to be able to play play in college.

And so I applied to like six different schools up in, you know, from New Jersey up to New England and ended up getting accepted at Choate Rosemary Hall in Connecticut.

And it was fantastic because the quarterback,

you know, he was like, yep, love you coming up.

We're going to throw the ball 45 times a game.

Absolutely awesome.

And it was amazing.

And also, too, because in the spring, we had won a state championship in lacrosse.

And I was, you know, the top player in the team.

I ended up being the Florida representative to the national all-star game for lacrosse.

Now, just to clarify it, that was not a big deal back then because Florida had like 18 teams, right?

And I remember I was on the West team and there was nine MIDI lines, right?

And I was a midfielder.

And I was on the ninth MIDI line with the guy from California and the guy from Colorado.

So, you know, it wasn't that big of a deal.

But it it was still, I was able to take that accolade, transfer into this next evolution of my athletic career, which was to go to Choaton.

And I remember showing up in August

and I was so excited.

I was like, this is my shot.

I'm going to go to this great school.

I'm going to get it, you know.

recruited by a D1 school.

It's going to be amazing.

And I remember showing up first day and we're doing our tests and strength stuff.

And I look over at this guy next to me and I said, hey, how you doing?

I'm David.

What's your name?

He's like, Mike.

And he's like, I'm like, what position do you play?

And he's like, quarterback.

And I go, he goes, what position do you play?

And I go, quarterback.

And this dude had recruited two of us and we both showed up.

And so everything was shot in that moment.

And it's like,

dude, coach, you just told me.

I was the guy.

That's why I came to the school.

That's why we're paying this insane amount of money to go to the school so I can come here and throw the ball.

And

um,

I don't know what it was.

We had a really solid team, a lot of great guys, you know, Kirby and, and, and we had like nine postgraduates and Brian Lonsinger was our captain and all these amazing human beings, really special guys.

And, and so Mike and I looked at each other and, and said, hey, do you, you want to go for it?

And He's like, yeah.

And so we just split time the whole year and we went undefeated.

We were one of the best teams at that time in Choate's entire like 112-year history.

And we were beating teams by like 50.

And we won the championship of that big school.

And it was incredible.

And I was riding this huge high and was getting some looks and was getting some smaller colleges.

And

then.

La Crosse came.

I played basketball and then played lacrosse.

And we run a championship in lacrosse too.

But no big D1 offers came in other than for La Crosse.

And it was one for UMass and then one for Penn State.

And the reason I got the Penn State offer was, again, because of Gary Niels.

He had sent a letter to Glenn Thiel, who was the head coach at Penn State and said, hey, you know, this guy's not from

you know, Philly.

He's not from Long Island.

He's not from Maryland, upstate New York.

He, you know, but he's a really good athlete.

And if you give him a a shot,

he'll make you proud.

And so he put his reputation on the line for me.

And I went on a recruiting trip to UMass and I went on a recruiting trip to Penn State and it wasn't even a choice.

And so I chose to go to Penn State.

And

it was...

a funny start because when I showed up, my whole intention was I was going to try and walk on the football team.

I had created this illusion that I could play at Penn State, right?

From the time I was a little kid, when I was little, little, it was like, all right, you know, go to University of Michigan, win the Heisman, then go play for the Pittsburgh Steelers.

You know, you're a kid and you're just, you, you're, it's not like it is today where there's max preps and there's every single stat and they rank everybody's five star, blue chips, four star, three, like wasn't like that.

And so I had conjured up this illusion that I was a lot better than I actually was.

And so I said, all right, I'm going to go to Penn State and I'm going to walk on.

And I'll, you know, I showed up.

We showed up in like August.

And my roommate was still one of my closest friends to this day, Mike O'Keefe, who I just love dearly.

He was like a godsend that he was my roommate.

He was an all-American from Baltimore.

And

we were in freshman study hall class

and it was all the athletes.

And he's like, hey, man, I think you need to go tell the new freshman quarterback you're going to take his job.

And I was like, yeah, man, where is he?

And there was this dude in the front row that was the biggest human being I've ever seen.

And it was a guy named Carrie Collins.

And Kerry was the number one recruited quarterback in the country.

And he was like 6'5, 255, had an 80-yard ball.

And

he was just, I've never seen anything like it.

And

kind of in that moment, my whole world shattered because the illusion that I had created of who I thought I was

was untrue.

You know, I was six foot, 160 pounds, soaking wet.

I did have a strong arm and probably I could have handled the

complexity of a D1 program, but I physically, I was just, I was nowhere.

You know, I might have been a decent D3 quarterback, maybe.

And so all of that dream that, you know, that 10 plus years of wanting to play football in college just collapsed.

It just went away.

And immediately I started to collapse emotionally.

How so?

I, because the alternative was to,

you know, all right, I've got this opportunity as a lacrosse player.

I'm going to move in and I'm, you know, I'm going to be really good there.

But like I said, my roommate was an all-American from Baltimore.

Like our freshman class, these people were phenomenal players from Towson.

There was Grant and Brian and Mike and Hank and

JT.

Like Mike Buzza, my other close, close friend,

and there's a cool story about Mike and Mike.

They actually came to my buds graduation.

Mike Buzz was on the 119 all-world team from Philly.

And these guys, they could do things with their stick.

I just couldn't even dream of.

And so

I had a little bit earlier started as a as a way to manage kind of my frustrations and my fears because my fears really began to emerge when that whole stuff started going down with Eric.

I think

my insecurity really began to blossom in those times.

And I became afraid of a lot of things, you know, during those years and afraid of failure for sure.

Afraid, you know, I was afraid I didn't measure up.

I was afraid of death.

Right.

You know,

it was weird.

You know, at 13, 14, all of a sudden, I become fascinated with, you know, my favorite movie was Apocalypse Now and the Deer Hunter.

And so

it wasn't, those weren't your typical war movies.

You know, Rambo was going on at the same time and Commando and all that.

But I was more attracted to those very intense stories of

how war affected people.

And, you know, there was this other show that came on.

I forget what year it was, but it was called The Day After.

And it was about nuclear holocaust.

And, you know, that was my salvation.

I would, to escape when I was home in the chaos of the house, I'd go into my dad's den and we had that little cable thing with the little box.

And I'd just close the doors and I would sit and I would just watch TV and movies for hours and hours.

And I was drawn to these very intense stories about

the collapse of the human spirit.

And I think that

provoked a deep fear for me that that was possible and feasible.

I was watching it in real time with my brother.

I watched it when my dad's firm collapsed.

I was, you know, feeling the effects, you know, that 0-10 season, like I wasn't who I thought I was.

And so I think everything, the foundation began to

fracture and those that insecurity and that fear emerged significantly.

And so fast forward my freshman year, we show up and

kind of at choat, I kind of defaulted into this almost an alternate personality to protect myself from that fear.

And I'd gotten the nickname at choat, they called me psycho, and I'd do dumb stuff.

I remember I streaked a bunch of like these functions.

I would get hammered, you know, in the middle of the night with my friend Chris and Mike, and

just tried to project myself as a lot stronger than I was.

And so so in the fall of

91,

I

kind of collapsed pretty rapidly and started drinking a ton, like a ton, not even a little bit like blackout drunk every time I went out.

And, you know, and started, you know, smoking a ton.

And

I mean, I, by the end of my first semester, I think I had like a 1.2 grade point average, 1.3.

Like I collapsed and couldn't find my footing.

And it just kept getting worse and worse and worse.

And by my, you know, my sophomore year, I was still on the team.

I'd gotten eligible through sophomore into the fall

and was trying my hard, but I just wasn't connecting.

It wasn't.

hitting me.

Like I felt inept.

I felt unqualified.

I felt

I was scared that I would never, no matter what I could do, would be as good as these guys.

And so I gave myself this out that I

had, I, someone had given me this, this guy, my team had given me the nickname Elvis, my right and like fallball freshman year.

And so Elvis became this moniker and it became this alter ego for me, this, this, this personality that I could hide behind.

And as the party guy and the eccentric.

And

right around the same time, I discovered my real passion for art.

And, you know, some of the first artists I really found, you know, I've always been, I was always, because I was taking, I was an art major with a minor in poetry and some other minors, you know, in sociology, philosophy, and all that.

And, and I tell people that and they're like, what'd you say?

You know, and I didn't, that was the only other thing I was good at, right?

I was good at sports and I was good at art.

And so I'll be an art major because what else am I going to do?

And

had a couple of cool classes that really allowed me to explore

the depths of what art looked like.

And I remember I discovered, you know, Van Gogh.

And, you know, you learn, take five seconds to, you know, I took a bunch of art history classes and you learn about Van Gogh and his relationship with Gauguin and the change of Impressionism and what he battled psychologically.

And then I found,

you know, Charles Bukowski as a poet.

And, you know, and

that was revolutionary for me, this guy who had essentially lived on Skid Row for, you know, four decades and wrote these beautiful poems that just resonated with me.

Music like Miles Davis.

And when you understand the complexity of who Miles Davis was, you know, I'm just now all of a sudden I'm being sucked into this.

And then, you know, of course, there was Jim Morrison in the doors.

And then there was Hunter Thompson.

I remember reading Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

It was like, I was just like, oh, my, this is it.

This is who I want to be.

And

then really I had an English, like a lit class and part of a section or poetry class and part of the section was on the beat authors.

from the 30s, 40s, and 50s, really that blossomed in the 1950s, Alan ginsberg and william s burrows and and and the one that really the seminal work that i think really changed my

my impression of where i wanted to go or what i wanted to be was jack keroux on the road

and

i read that and i was like

that's what i need to do Like, none of this is making sense for me anymore.

I'm not an athlete anymore, and I can't recover that no matter how much I pretend.

And I'm not a student.

I couldn't handle that, or chose not to handle it, I should say.

I could handle it, but I chose not to handle it.

And I tried to encapsulate all these different

ideas of these artists because I really believe that to be a great artist, I had to be that eccentric

wild man, you know, the

guy who stands on the bars and can drink, you know, you know, 10 pints of Guinness in a bottle of wild turkey and who

smoked cigarette after cigarette or swisher suite after swisher suite.

And

I really

allowed myself to

be consumed with that.

Now, the I think the positive aspect of it is that that's where I really started writing.

That's where I really started drawing and I really started painting.

And I got to explore what that was like.

And, you know, the one thing about art is that when you're in hell,

if you can put it on paper or you can put it on a wall or you can

somehow get it out of you, it makes it somewhat tolerable.

And that's what I did.

And I remember in my sophomore year, we lived in this old house and there was a, you know, a bunch of us that lived in this house and

JJ and Grant and Brian and my friend Tony Gronsky, who I love.

There's, I've got another part of the story about him.

And, and I lived in the basement, like this moldy, nasty, horrible basement.

And, you know, I'd come home and,

you know, when all the bars would shut down, all the, everybody, every fraternity would kick me out.

And I would, because I just walk into a fraternity and be like, Elvis.

And I'd, you know, drink everything they have and go to the next house.

And

I would come home and I would have a bottle of bushmills, and I'd open that bushmills and I would paint on the walls.

And I'd, you know, paint these insane pictures of the angst and the frustration and the pain that I was suffering from.

And I'd write just poem after poem after poem.

And

that

began to take hold of me in a pretty significant way to where,

you know, the thing is,

there's an allure to these titans of art, right?

There's something that sucks you into them.

There's something that's

romantic about that life, right?

When

you think about...

Jackson Pollock or you think about Andy Warhol or you think about some brilliant musician,

Jimi Hendrix, or and you watch what they do, what they can create,

and

it it it

alters your consciousness, right?

It opens perspective.

And so as I was in this

profound transition in my life, I didn't know how to find a foundational cornerstone, if you will.

I didn't know what that was.

And so I started, the depression started setting in pretty significantly.

And I couldn't shake it no matter what I did.

I just drank more, you know, and it just got worse and worse and worse.

And then it was my,

but what was interesting is I averaged like a 1-8 during the regular school year.

And then I averaged like a 4-1 or 4-2 in summer school, right?

Cause, and I always joke that it's because I was from Florida, I couldn't handle the cold, right?

And, and, uh, and, um,

in Penn State, but in the summer, so the summer, uh, there's this crazy thing called Arts Festival.

It's a really beautiful thing.

It was my favorite part about Penn State.

And Mike and I were up there and I was living

near some other, these female friends of mine who were on the lacrosse team.

And it was Chrissy and Alyssa and Megan.

And wonderful.

And Chrissy and I were super close.

She was, and she was kind of a deadhead artist.

And she, she and I would just talk about these people endlessly.

We would just go get a coffee or drink and we would just talk about this stuff.

Well, that summer I met somebody and I had a little short relationship and then kind of ended it and that was it.

And then the fall began.

And at this time, it was my junior year.

And

we were living in this place called Stonehenge.

And it was just the name of it.

And it was, it was, it was me,

Mike,

Buzza, Billy,

Scoons,

Brian, and Grant.

And I lived, me and O'Keefe and Schoons lived in the top.

And I lived in this little hole up front.

And, you know, had these, just by then was really struggling.

And

I remember being at a party in the fall.

It was cold.

It was really cold.

And

I had left the party.

was pretty, pretty inebriated

and

walked outside and there was a snowfall on the ground and and this girl who i had seen kind of came up to me and she was i guess at the party and i hadn't seen her and she came up to me and she goes ellis i want to talk to you

and so she came out and we're in the street and she goes do you know where i've been now mind you penn state is

you know, 65,000 kids, right?

I mean, it's a massive school and you can never see anybody, see him once and never see him again sometimes.

And And she came up to me and she goes, do you have any idea where I've been?

And I said, no, I don't.

And she goes,

you got me pregnant.

And

I left school and I was going to have the baby.

But I had a miscarriage and I lost the baby.

And so, you know, I'm sitting, I don't, how am I processing this and what do I do?

How old are you?

I want to say I was probably 21, 20, 21.

Yeah, probably 21.

And

don't know what to say.

And I guess I just looked, you know, why didn't you tell me?

And she looked at me and she said, because I didn't want you to have anything to do with the kid.

And that was kind of the lowest moment that I'd had.

Why did she not want you to have anything to do with the kid?

Because I was out of control.

I wasn't trustworthy.

I wasn't, didn't have integrity.

I was a mess with alcohol and drugs.

I was just

mostly just pot.

You know, I, I, I, I was nervous about cocaine.

I'd had a couple friends who had OD'd and, you know, my brother had battled that a little bit.

And,

and so I was nervous.

So I never got, went down that.

But, you know, some psychedelics.

I was, you know, definitely

letergic acid and mushrooms.

And because, you know, you get into that world and you're like, oh, this is going to make me a better artist.

And you believe that, right?

You read all the stories about Ken Keesey and Timothy Leary and, you know, the Merry Pranksters.

And you're like, all right, that's where I want to be.

There's, there's a perfection in that.

There's a freedom.

But the truth is, there is no freedom.

What happened, you always end up devolving into hell with it.

And it's just the natural progression.

And so after she told me, and

she was, I don't remember how it ended because I was kind kind of in shock.

And so, at that point, I

left the party and went back to Stonehenge, went up into my little hole and cubby, and

drank the rest of my bottle of bushmills and broke out my shotgun and put a shell in it.

Was seriously contemplating shooting myself at that point.

Holy shit!

I didn't know that about you.

Yeah.

And

it's like everything slows down.

And,

you know, you're trying to, at least I was trying to,

I was trying to figure out what was worth it.

Like, why should I, why shouldn't I just end it?

If this person felt I was so,

such a

lowly human being that she wanted me to have nothing to do with it in any way, shape, or form,

not even the consideration to want to give me the option, right?

Because of my character.

Like, where do you come back from that?

And I just remember just

weeping in my room, just like, just trying to work up the courage, right, to pull that trigger.

And

God

brought Michael Keefe home.

And he heard the music and he came up and he just started banging on the door.

And he's like, this,

this, let's go, man.

Come home.

Come downstairs.

Vis.

Because he, out of everybody,

he

really helped me the most.

Like he saw it devolve day by day, month by month, week, you know, year by year.

And he was always there.

He was always the guy.

Like, come on, Vis, let's go.

We're going to, you know, a lacrosse party.

And I think right after that is when I finally got kicked off the team

my junior year.

And

he just banging on the door.

Vis, Vis, come out.

Come here, buddy.

Come on, man.

Come downstairs.

Come hang with us.

And that was it.

That That was the thing, his voice, that made me get up, kind of shake it off.

And

I went out.

I went downstairs and kind of just sat there, just trying to process it all.

Did he know?

I think he suspected it.

You never told him?

I did.

I told him later.

What'd he say?

He said, I kind of felt like that was coming.

He's like, there's been more times than just that.

I've worried about you.

Like I said, man, because he's,

it wasn't the first time i thought about it for sure but not in that way not in the place where i was like i want to i'm going to do this because i don't i don't deserve to be here

and that was the other thing it was weird is like to get to a place where

you can't see all the good in your life because all you can do is sit in the the hell of like what you're not doing right and you can't see beyond it like you have these blinders up

and

it's almost like a weird filter.

You see the world through this, you know, infinite

layers of negativity.

You know, I call it the, I call it the negative insurgency, right?

It's that thing that just hunts you and hunts you and does not let you go.

No matter where you try and move, where you try and escape.

however you try and do it, it just hunts you.

And it's, you can't see it.

You don't know why it's happening where it's coming from and you're too afraid to look at yourself how did you

so if you said you were going to leave school to be a dad i mean how did you rectify that situation with i didn't even get to that point you didn't no i didn't know

i didn't know she was pregnant i didn't know what was i i didn't even like it was just she showed up hey i was pregnant i was gonna have a kid you weren't gonna be part of it that's what you wanted to tell me so she had already had the miscarriage yeah and come back to school shit yeah

yeah

so i was

and then that that just continued it and it just got worse and worse and i think that year i forget it was something like almost 90 straight days of being intoxicated

Yeah, it was just, it just didn't end.

I just didn't want it to end.

I mean, I'd wake up, pour myself a glass of jack or, you know, hit the bong or whatever it was, just to numb, just to stay numb as much as I could.

Damn, man.

Yeah.

How'd you get over that?

God.

It's the

only

answer that I can give because it was in mid-April 1995.

Did you have a relationship with God at that time?

Nothing.

So looking back, are you saying it was God or you found God at that point?

No, I just

looking back, but I know that was the first moment where it was like

God

kind of came in and was a presence in my life.

I had gotten so bad my senior year, I was essentially off the team.

I was living by myself, completely isolated.

That's the other thing, like the desire to continue to isolate and isolate and isolate.

And that's what people with these types of challenges, depression and anxiety and fear and and you know that's what it is and pain the presence of pain like you want to be isolated and you're ashamed of it and

and

i'd gotten to that place

where

i didn't want anybody to see me and and it was april and i knew i was in trouble and i woke up one sunday and and i was not

i mean you've you've seen my places before i'm not exactly the most uh uh uh

squared away.

I'm a bit of a

tornado.

You definitely don't have OCD.

I know.

I'm definitely the artist, right?

And so I got, I woke up and I looked over and there's a pile of clothes in the corner and I was like,

all right, I got to go.

I'd been wearing the same jeans for a couple of weeks.

And it's like, all right, I got to go.

do laundromat.

And I drove out to this laundromat just off campus, not far from where this had happened.

It was an a lacrosse house that people used to live at.

And

was in this laundromat.

And I used to take

a sketchbook with me or one of my poetry books.

And

in those moments, I'd try and reflect and I'd try and find

something that positive, right?

I'd try and quantify the pain in some type of prose or a drawing or a sketch or something.

And I showed up and I just sat there and there was nothing, just nothing.

I was just sitting there watching that laundry go round and round and round.

And then just like that,

something hit me.

It was like, you got to change your life right now.

And it was overwhelming.

Like it was, it was like a hit.

It was, I felt a movement.

I'm like, okay, what is it?

What do I do?

And,

you know, being a lawyer's kid, it's like, write out all your pros and cons, son, you know, and look at it, you know, intellectually.

And so I'm like, all right.

So I wrote out the pros of staying in school and the pros of leaving school and the pros, cons of staying in school and the cons of leaving school.

And none of it was good.

Like I didn't have anything to think about or do or nothing.

And then I got hit immediately with a thought.

And it was because of Tony Gronsky.

from Scranton PA.

And Tony, when I was a freshman, they lived, he and his roommate Marlon lived next to me.

And we became friends with Tony.

He's just a great guy, amazing, total Scranton guy, but funny as hell and had these little sayings he'd say.

And we just loved him and we adopted him.

And he was just, but he was older than us.

He'd been in Army Reserves and he was squared away.

And as a freshman, he'd given me a book about Navy SEALs in Vietnam.

And I remember I read, and I didn't know about SEALs.

Like, I, and when I was a kid, it was was always Green Berets and Rangers, right?

John Wayne,

you know,

Apocalypse Now and The Deer Hunter.

I mean,

those movies were, I mean, I had tiger stripe camo, you know, stuff when I was a kid.

And it was because of those things.

It was like, man, I admired that.

I'd always admired what they were and what they could do.

And then he gave me this book.

I put it down.

I never thought about it.

And then in that moment, it was like, that's it.

Because when the whole thing, the whole context of the book was about these,

I mean, you know, these guys that were in Vietnam doing these missions out in the middle of nowhere with a few guys and

they would accomplish things that were crazy.

And

I was like, that's it.

Because at that point,

my fear had utterly consumed me.

I was afraid of everything.

I was afraid of, I couldn't even try anything.

I was just afraid.

And self-confidence was completely shattered.

Like, I had none.

I didn't believe in myself at all in any way.

And then I had been kicked off the team.

So I had no support.

And even though Mike and Buzz and all those guys were wonderful to me, they were always there.

Brian Shorts, I mean, Grant Yoder, these met, they were always there.

They always cared about me.

But I was off the team, and so I was alone.

And

so I said, all right, well, I'm going to be able to repair all of this by going in the Navy and becoming a SEAL.

And that was it.

That was the decision in that moment.

Had you ever had contact with her since she met you in the street?

No.

How often do you think about that?

I'd been able to suppress it for quite a while.

And then obviously having children and then having daughters, that brought it back up, having daughters now.

Yeah, it's it's a

everything is more intense about all of my relationships that I've been through.

Um,

now that I have daughters, and I think about how I behaved and I think about how I acted.

And

I think that really kind of of

really shifted my approach to relationships after that as well.

And I think it, it,

it, it, it added a component of, of

not being able to recognize when, when relationships weren't healthy anymore and staying in them probably too long, which became a

pretty regular thing for me for the rest of my time until I met Jonna.

So,

yeah, it's, I, it comes up for sure, and definitely in preparation for this.

I mean, obviously, you know, to try and encapsulate those pivotal moments, they're not typically the best moments of your life, and that was certainly one of them.

What advice would you have for somebody that age that has

gotten somebody pregnant,

had a miscarriage?

How do they get through that?

I think the biggest thing is to lean on people that you can count on, on, who will give you the truth, who will talk truth to you.

I think also faith is a big thing, right?

I didn't have anything.

I didn't have anybody to turn to.

I didn't know where to go.

I didn't know where to rehabilitate.

I was ashamed.

And I think, you know, one thing that is

pretty inevitable

for young people is there's an intimacy that's, you know, that's where the overwhelming component of your passion comes from and as you're a young person is in those emerging intimate moments with people that you're you're just you know infatuated with or you're bonded physically to

and i think unfortunately people just don't think and they get encapsulated in the moment and next thing you know someone gets pregnant and I think a lot of people, obviously, we know the numbers of abortion are astronomical.

And I think, you know, there are also a lot of people that I know that have pushed through and had children, right?

They were together and they got pregnant and then they got married.

And, you know,

intimate parts of my immediate family understand that deeply, right?

And

so I think what I would say to people is

you know, don't be afraid to ask for help because it's such an impending, imposing

idea that you did something wrong or you weren't good enough or something happened.

And I think both for the female, the woman who's involved in that, especially to seek out people that are, they can talk to and then also the young man, because that's, I think a lot of times that, that kind of, there's a

myth that young men

don't have the capacity to process that stuff or, and many times they don't, for whatever lack of emotional intelligence, maybe, or, or it's just fear, right?

And so,

you know, those are those moments where that fear and that pain, you have to,

you have to move into it.

Like, you have to be willing to

recognize that you're going to learn something deeply from it.

And if you really invest in understanding it,

you can

begin to rely on that deeper level faith as well, too, which I would, would, with, I wish I wish I had.

You know, another piece of advice that I want to get from you is, you know, we talk a lot about veteran suicide.

You've lost a lot of friends.

I've lost a lot of friends.

We've lost mutual friends, a lot of them.

You know, but on top of, you know, the veteran suicide epidemic, I mean, today's youth, with everything that they deal with with...

predators, with blackmail, with

social media, with

the

self-esteem problems and trying to belong in school and with all the confusion that goes on today.

I mean, teen suicide is at...

I don't know the statistics, but I do know it's at an all-time high.

After COVID, girls' teenage suicide increased by 50%.

And your wife, Johnna, you know, dealt with a suicide with her ex-husband.

And,

you know, what...

But specifically for teenagers,

what advice do you have for somebody that's riding the line?

I think the biggest thing is to know that you're loved.

Because in those moments, you don't.

It's not that you,

I don't think it's that they don't believe that they're loved, but they can't reciprocate.

or it would be better for them to be gone.

I could redip, I'm the problem.

So I could help my family or my friends.

They would have a better life if I was just gone.

And then it's the other is like, I can't handle this anymore.

I don't want to fight this anymore.

It's too overwhelming.

I'm exhausted.

I don't have any options.

And I think that's the challenge.

And I think, you know, the insecurities of young people

really as an emergence of the de-socialization that took place, right?

You know, when I first started working with kids in 2006, the statistic was like 13-year-old kids, boys were connected something like four to six hours a day.

It was, you know, whether it was gaming or whatever.

And then girls, it was a little higher, maybe five to seven or eight, something like that.

And then now,

you know, kids are connected for 13, 14 hours a day.

They're on their phones or they're immersed in streaming and they're they're they're in that space where

they're not given the opportunity to process these emotions across from somebody and across from somebody that they trust,

that will sit and listen, that will maybe not give advice, but say,

I can't

snap my fingers and make this go away.

But what we can do is we can work together to get you you back to a place where you can, you can gain that foundation, find that cornerstone.

And that cornerstone is the key to the whole thing, right?

The cornerstone of Christ.

Because if you know at a minimum that

he died for us,

he died for our sins, then you begin to contemplate, all right.

The sin of self-loathing,

the sin of, you know,

of not believing that you're good enough or you're capable enough or that life will change.

You think about some people that are

just trapped in trauma, whether it's generational trauma of the dysfunction of family or it's

whatever circumstances they are.

And

obviously, I think it's it's ridiculous to assume that

youth trauma is encapsulated in people that are economically in a struggle in fact i i think you know i've i've seen many

people that are

not wealthy or even you know or even have an abundance if you will but they love on each other and they have very strong family dynamics and those that sense that you know you've got each other's back, even in the midst of there's the natural squabbling that takes place among siblings or parents or whatever that are trying to parent you.

I think, you know, those bonds, those are the, those bonds are what chain us to that cornerstone.

And that's, that's, that's the, the mixture.

That's what connects us.

That's what creates, if you will, almost the net that saves us and the free fall that we move into are those bonds, right?

And so that's the key.

you know, is to get involved in conversations and to have meaningful conversations with each other.

Those first moments where

you start to say, I'm ugly, I'll never be popular, or

I'm not good enough to be the top,

I don't fit in with anybody, or I'm a little different.

All these things that

once you get on

that

infinite wheel of despair, it's very difficult to jump off or even to slow the wheel down.

And I believe believe that

human interaction is the way to do that.

It's been that way for as long as

human beings have been interacting and sharing stories with each other in their tribes.

That's why when people come into the seat and they sit across from you and they share these stories, there's a reason why so many millions of people have been affected, billion now,

is because those stories, they connect with them, they touch them.

In particular, when they hear, you know, what they imagine to be

immortals or

people who are operating at some

higher level of

strength or whatever that might be.

And they come in and they show their vulnerability and they show their struggles, right?

It connects you to them.

And I think that's what we need more of.

We need more dialogue.

We need more sincerity, empathy within each other.

And that's not to say we have to become, you know,

weak by any measure.

It actually takes more courage and more strength to sit down across from somebody that you care deeply and say, what's really going on with you?

I want to know.

I can't promise you I can solve this in the next hour.

And I think so many people

When we become isolated in our own thoughts, we cease to see other people in their pain and respect it.

And I think that's a critical thing for us to do.

And it really takes that little bit of like, hey, you good?

I mean, I think about it all the time.

And I think about it with Dave Hall.

I mean, I got a call from Chris and said, hey, man, Dave's struggling.

And I called him up.

I'm like, how you doing?

He's like, I'm good.

I just got out of rehab and I'm going to go do some ayahuasca.

And I think I'm good.

And I was like, okay, hey, amen.

You know, come down to Florida, come stay with me for a month.

And I've got this great program that Dr.

Free is running out

in Methodists and Houston.

And I was like, I'll pay for it.

I'll raise the money.

I'll get you there.

It's like, well, I'm going to go back to home in North Florida for like a week and then I'll call you.

And I was like, okay.

And then I immediately hear he's killed himself.

It's like, why didn't I drive up?

Or why didn't I go?

And that's the other half of it for those that are left behind, you know, that process.

So suicide is not something that we should cower from.

It's not something that shouldn't be talked about.

It's not something that shouldn't be discussed openly.

I mean, it's a massive component of existence, right?

The human soul is fragile.

And the result of a fragile soul is the self-loathing that moves into wanting to inflict pain to end that pain, to end that existence.

And,

you know, it's just,

I would tell kids, you know, lean into somebody who loves you.

Don't be afraid to tell.

And then

to sit down with somebody that's got some wisdom on them

and talk about, you know, one of the things that John and I are going to start working on here in a little bit as

a course that we're going to put out under the Frog Logic Institute about suicide.

You know, I think another thing, just to add to that, is, you know,

especially for young people, you know, who don't have a lot of life experiences.

You know,

life comes in phases.

And

the phase always comes to an end.

You don't know how long it's going to be.

Maybe you have a shitty childhood.

Maybe you got shitty parents, shitty siblings,

bad friends,

bad decisions.

But if you're willing to change,

life just it comes in phases.

And it will always always turn.

Wheel just keeps going.

It'll always turn.

And so

just know there are better days ahead.

Yeah.

There are better days ahead.

Hope.

But

let's take a break.

Yeah, man.

Let's go break in that new SIG.

Done.

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All right, Dave, we're back from the break.

Getting ready to get into your naval special warfare career.

So

we left off at

Downward Spiral in College,

Apocalypse Now movies, The Deer Hunter.

You got interested.

Where do we go from here?

Well, it was after that moment, I remember, I mean, it's a pretty shocking thing to call home and say, mom, dad, thank you for just spending, you know, tens of thousands of dollars on my education.

Oh, by the way, I'm done.

I'm not finishing.

I'm walking away.

And my brother had walked away too.

And this, we come from a family.

I think there's 17 people in our family that have graduated from the University of Michigan.

You know, my grandfather had gone to Dartmouth.

You know, my cousin was undergrad at Brown and a graduate at Columbia, you know, one of the top people in the entire world, in the literature world.

He's a senior editor at large for Random House.

His name's David Ebershoff.

He's a lot of pride in

education and maximizing those capabilities.

And so

I was petrified because

the first person

I really needed to get confirmation from was my father.

was to say, hey, will you support this?

Will you get behind this?

And I was scared.

And I think I waited a couple of days.

And then finally,

I had to call him.

And,

you know, he, typical fashion, he maintained his control and was just like, all right, if this is absolutely what you have to do and what you want to do, why don't you come home?

And,

you know, we'll go from there.

And packed up my stuff and drove home from Penn State.

And

it was May of 95

and got home.

And

it was different this time

than the last four years of coming home and

going down to South Beach with my, you know, my other close friend Mark and hanging out down there and just

not

thinking at all about what my future was going to look like, just more of.

of of what I was trying to numb myself against.

And I got home, and

over those four years, what one of the beautiful things that took place during that time was my father and my relationship blew up.

Like it, it emerged.

I'll never forget one of those, my sophomore year.

He knew I was struggling.

He too struggled.

He got kicked out of Michigan his sophomore year.

The only person, I think, in Michigan history to be expelled for intellectual drifting, they called it.

Intellectual drifting.

Intellectual drifting and on his way out he he got confirmation from whoever was you know kicking him out saying hey if i go to this other community college or other school and i get straight a's and have a 4.0 will you let me in and the guy's like there's no way yeah absolutely so he goes and he goes through summer school and goes and gets a 4.0.

And one of the interesting things he talks about is that summer he read all of the great works of literature.

Like he made a list of the top works of literature from Henny Meanway to Steinbeck to, you know, Everett to Keats to Whitman, all of them.

And he read all of them.

And

he had come up during my sophomore year when I was living in the basement.

And

he came back one night.

My mom went to the Netty Lion Inn, and he came back with me.

And we sat and we drank bushmills together.

And it was the first time he explained that situation and how

had wanted to move to New York and be a writer and pursue his art because that's where the art comes from in our family.

It comes from my father.

My father was an artist growing up.

He had a tough childhood.

His mom had a stroke when he was four years old and that changed his life, or eight years old.

I think it was eight years old.

And it changed his life because his mom was then handicapped from them on.

And my grandfather, Robert Bruce Rutherford, you you know, had to take care of her, work a full job, and then my dad and his sister.

And I think somewhere in there, he kind of got lost in his own mind too.

And that art emerged in him.

And so he had these dreams of moving to New York and being a famous author, famous novelist.

And he sat down with me and told me that story.

And it was like the first time he had ever been proud of me intellectually.

Because even though I wasn't going to class much, I was still reading Nietzsche, Camus.

I was learning about art history and the Medici families and Venice and

the emergence of

all different types of philosophy.

I took multiple philosophy classes, multiple psychology classes.

You're in the humanities.

And I just started to consume those other works.

And

it was in that moment where I felt a bond with us.

And that was pivotal because even though I was not behaving, I wasn't proud of what I was doing.

I wasn't proud of where I was going.

He still loved me.

And he was like giving me the space to figure it out is later what he told me.

And so fast forward, I get home.

And I'm walking away from the thing that I thought was all my dad wanted me to be, which was an intellect.

That's the way I would gain his pride in me, that he would be able to one day look at me and said, you know, son, I'm proud of you for graduating and, you know, going to law school and coming to work.

Although he never once asked, you know, hey, I'd love for you to come and work with me as an attorney.

Never once, never pushed me in any direction one way or the other.

And in fact, restrained himself a lot, knowing that I think I had created this false illusion of who I was athletically.

And he allowed that space for me.

So I come home and I remember and he said to me, he goes, would you give me two weeks before you go to the recruiter?

And I'm like,

what do you mean?

For what?

I want to go.

I want to get this started immediately.

He goes, because I didn't want to think about it.

Like I didn't want to linger in it.

I didn't want to learn.

And, you know, and he goes, will you just give me two weeks?

And for the first time,

over two weeks, my dad would come home early and we would spend all afternoon and evening discussing it.

And we would talk and he'd be like, why do you want to do this?

What about this is going to fill whatever holes inside of you?

What are you going to learn from this?

Are you aware?

I mean, you have these fears.

Are you aware you're going to have to face these fears?

You're going to have to, in ways you can't fathom.

Are you aware it could irrevoca

in your life?

And we had these really intense, deep conversations about life.

And

I was convincing.

And he got to the point where he's like, okay, then I just want you to do one more thing for me.

And then I'll, I'll, you know, I'll support you unconditionally in this.

And I was like, what's that?

And he goes, you're going to need to go talk to Bud Miller.

And I was like,

I got nervous at that point.

So Bud Miller, my best, one of my best friends in high school was Chris Miller, phenomenal guy, amazing, amazing friend to me.

His father was a Vietnam veteran and had a couple tours, was a Marine Corps officer, and

was bigger than life.

He was the CEO of a major company called Arvida back then, which they built much of Southeast Florida.

He was the CEO.

He was the chairman of, you know, of our school board at our prep school we went to.

And he just commanded attention.

I always had this amazing affinity for him.

So I'd, you know, spend the night and very, very juxtaposed to my father.

My father was not that guy, right?

He was quiet and listened.

And I mean, he's an attorney and he was empathetic.

And he was, he was, he was.

You say that like all attorneys are quiet and empathetic.

Apparently that's not the case.

But the way I grew up, I watched the nobility of the way my father, he was in estate planning.

And I mean, you think about it,

what happens in estate planning, it's the worst moment of your life.

Someone's died.

And my dad would guide people through this.

And he would sit down and be like, he'd be like, you know, David.

Think about what I do and how I help people in those moments.

Because I'd be like, dad, why aren't you like big-time trial attorney?

Or, you know, you know, why aren't you going out?

And he says, you know, I tried trial attorney.

I hated it.

I didn't like it.

A lot of it is

not what it seems.

You know, it's kind of a charade, if you will.

But in estate planning, I can help people in the greatest crisis of their life.

You know, and that influence, combined with my mom and the dedication to charity and what she did in the community, like that really was a model for me.

I mean, it was a phenomenal example for me to exist in.

And anyway, so he's like, all right, we're going to go talk to Bud.

I was like, okay.

So he called and arranged it.

And I remember going over to Bud and walk in.

And Bud was a big crown drinker, crown on the rocks, man, just crown, crown.

And we go outside.

They lived in this nice neighborhood.

And we go outside and he's like, come outside.

And he pours me a crown on the rocks.

And he's like, drink it.

I'm like, okay.

And he says, so you want to go to war huh

and for the next

several hours um he told me about some of his the intimacy of what it was like for him in vietnam

and it was rattling it was the first time i'd ever had anybody talk to me in that way i'd never had i mean nobody we had people in our family a couple generations before that had served were part of Roosevelt's cabinet.

You know,

we had a couple of my great uncles were generals and stuff, but since my grandfather's, nobody had served.

And

that was

an eye-opening experience, to say the least.

And he

shared with me about a time he, he, he would not, the famous stories of tunnel rats, right?

He would never make any of his guys go in the tunnel.

He would go in the tunnel instead of his men.

And one of the times the tunnel collapsed on him and his, he essentially was, you know, suffocating and his men had to dig him out.

And, you know, you hear that and then you hear about the story of men and his underneath his command dying in his arms multiple times.

And

it made it real or more real, more tangible.

It still wasn't real yet, right?

Obviously, but it made it real.

Like it made me really think,

whoa, is this

Is this what I want to do?

Can I handle that?

Like, what, what will it do to me?

Is it going to change?

Because my greatest fear from the beginning was that if I go into the teams, I'll lose that piece of myself.

That's the artists, right?

And I didn't want that to happen.

You know, I'd read enough stories about J.D.

Salinger and

Hemingway and these other people that had seen combat and how it changed them permanently.

And now, luckily,

maybe not, luckily is not the word.

I think fortunately for those men, that pain was converted into really beautiful art and so I was nervous like maybe if what I saw or what I went through that would be erased in me and so

I had that in mind and when I went to the recruiter uh man I was probably I had long hair huge sideburns a nasty goatee I was probably about 225 pounds out of shape and I walked into in Del Rey where it is and I said uh hey how you doing he's like may I help you?

And I was like, yeah, I want to be a Navy SEAL.

He's like, I bet you do.

And he sat me in that chair and put on that cassette tape called Be Someone Special.

And it's funny, man.

I just watched it.

You can find it on YouTube.

And it's, you know, guys.

fast roping into a target and assaulting it and planting a bomb and it blowing up and snipers taking guys out outside.

And then it moves into this, the story of buds.

And it, and that was the first time I'd ever, because back then there wasn't anything, right?

There's a couple books from Vietnam.

There was Rogue Warrior and that was it in the Charlie Sheen movie.

And

none of that encapsulated what it was.

For me,

that video was the first time I got a window into the intensity of it.

And I was like, yeah, that's it.

That's what I need.

That's what I want.

And he's like, okay, sign right here.

And I said, well, I can't.

My dad made me promise I'd I'd take it home and show him, you know, big contract.

I take it home to my dad and he reads through.

He goes, he goes, it is what it is.

You know, you go in,

they own you.

And I was like, okay, that, that, that works.

That's fine.

That's what I want.

So I signed, was at MEPS.

And, you know, in June 23rd, I think of 1995, I was at boot camp.

So what was it that really drew you in?

I think it was the redemption that I imagined I would feel if I could face death and not collapse.

I think if I could stand next to somebody who entrusted their lives with me and I had the strength to do that, that somehow all of my fear would go away.

Was there any aspect of

I mean, your athletic career came crashing down.

Your academic career came crashing down.

You had a miscarriage with a woman.

I mean,

it's a fucking tough spot for a guy, what, 21?

I was 22 because I had done the fifth year of high school.

So I was a

22 years old.

I mean, a lot of failures.

Is there any aspect of this that you, that, that, that,

I mean, did you want to make your parents proud?

Did you want to...

So, for example, for me, you know,

when I looked at it,

it was a way to be the best,

the very best.

It's something that was actually attainable.

You were in control.

All you have to do is not quit and perform.

There's no...

size requirements.

You're too small, you're too big, you're too skinny, you're too there is none of that.

And so

it's a way to...

You see what I'm saying?

Yeah, it mitigates all the other.

It's a way to be the best at something, to make people proud of you, and

it's all within your grasp.

You can actually see it happening because it's all on you.

There's no fucking scouts.

There's none of that.

I don't know if I...

I mean, obviously there's a part of that because, you know, I'd always been really good at all the things that I had tried and then I was a failure.

So yeah, there's a part of wanting to be a part of something elite for sure.

But it was more, I just didn't want to be afraid anymore.

And I thought that was going to do it.

Like I would be surrounded by the strongest men there were.

And if I hung, then

they would look at me and they'd be like, yeah, he's good to go.

And that would, I could release that sensation that I was afraid of not being able to perform, of not being able to measure up.

I think so there's a part of that in there, but it was much more contained in my own mind and my own perceptions.

What about killing?

No.

Did you think about killing?

No.

Did you want to kill?

Yeah, I mean, not in the way where it was at the forefront of my thoughts at all.

Like that wasn't it.

It's like, oh, I'm going to go in and I'm going to kill people.

That wasn't it at all.

And I think a lot of that,

because I think,

I mean, if you look at the 80s and then, you know, in the early 90s, the movies that were personifying, you know, mass level killing and from a,

um

male perspective and that power and that comes with it.

I don't know.

I mean, I don't know if that was the thing that was enticing me at all.

I mean, obviously, the more you go down into the program, the more that becomes more significant because when you realize that, well, that's what this whole thing's about.

Like it was interesting.

It took me a long time.

When I remember when I first got out, especially when I started working with kids, I would, you know, any kid that was saying, hey, I want to go in the Teams or somewhere.

And I would sit and talk to him.

And I would never ask that question.

And then

a little bit later, our friend Dan Sorello, Taco,

I talked to him because he was really influencing a lot of people when he first got out when he was running that CrossFit gym.

And he's put like, I think it's like 27 guys have come through him and gone in and succeeded.

So

I asked him, I was like, you know, what do you, what do you ask these guys?

And he goes, well, the first question I ask is, do you want to go kill people?

And he's like, because that's the whole thing.

And I was like, holy cow.

But at that time, no, that wasn't.

It was more just about filling the hole that fear had created in me.

How did it feel to sign up?

Like I was gaining control of my life.

Like I moved an inch forward.

You know, like I finally like, oh man, that's big.

That's an adult decision.

That's, that's, I'm leaving, I'm leaving the

the protective nest of of Boca Ratone and college and you know I'm I'm now it's real I have to go figure it out why do you think

I mean I hate to put it like this but I don't know any other way I was this I was the same

as everybody else that I served with including you

what is it that draws

people to killing

why are why are young men that are so interested

in special operations being a seal being a green beret being a ranger being a marine grunt being a marsock guy what what what what is the fascination with

taking someone's life have you delve into that at all um yeah i mean obviously it's there we have some mutual friends that have an exorbitant amount of confirmed kills, right?

And talking with them in those capacities,

you,

I mean, some of them, you get it,

they would describe it as, well, I got really good at it.

I was really good at it.

And I enjoyed it.

You know, because you're able to, I think as you mature in the process and that reprogramming really takes hold,

that becomes the objective.

Because at first, it's like, can I hang in buds?

Right.

Can I hang in how week?

And then once you beyond that, then it changes completely.

Then the focus begins where it's like, oh, no, that's, it's not about hanging at all.

It's about how good you're going to integrate with this group of men to go do that job.

That's it.

And all the other shit is just fluff.

It's just distraction, Right.

I just, I just, I just don't understand.

I mean, and I think about it with myself.

Like, why did it, I mean, because it is what it is.

You go in and you want to kill another human being.

I think eventually.

For me, it was right off the bat.

Really?

I just had a craving.

I wanted, I wanted to.

I wanted to legally kill somebody.

Yeah.

A bad guy.

Yeah.

I could, I can, I think I've, I mean, I've obviously you have those discussions in the midst of it.

And, and I think it's so integrated into your, like the, the evolution of your consciousness, how you see yourself in the community that that plays a major role in it.

Right.

And that becomes almost the criteria, right, of your service.

And I think that, that,

that overwhelms

naturally as it should, because it's not a game.

You're not playing a game.

Like there's no game about any of it from the day you first walk out into Coronado and you show up.

Like there's no game.

It's not a fucking game.

And that, so if it's not a game, well, what's this about?

And very quickly, you know, through your instructor staff constantly telling you, this is what it is.

This is what it's about.

This is what it is.

And then as you get closer and closer.

But for me, going in and,

you know, I got to,

you know, I went through boot camp and then spent a little bit of time in Great Lakes and then went to Bethesda Naval Hospital and in a transitional wait period before my buds class started.

Like, I wasn't thinking about any of that stuff.

I was just thinking about, all right, am I in shape enough?

Yeah, I should be all right.

It should be good.

You know, this shouldn't be, because again, there were no videos.

There were no books.

You had no idea what to expect.

It's like, yeah, I got this.

I'm a D1 athlete.

I'll be fine.

And it wasn't like, oh, I need to mentally prepare for this cataclysmic shift in the way I'm going to look at life and death.

Now, it was about the death component for me.

That was definitely there.

But it wasn't the reverse of that.

It wasn't like, oh, I'm going to deliver death.

It wasn't that for me at all, not until much later.

And then, and then, you know, but initially it was just like,

contemplate, but for me, I felt like every day i was just trying to hang on because you know my pathway was just not

not conducive for as as it would be for it or as it was for many other people so

how was the checking in the buds it was nuts i i remember i drove cross country with my friend brian who had been in boot camp brian and john they were both 18 in boot camp and we made it you know all good we were in the same you know state flags division and, and,

like, I was the RPAC and they were the two watch leaders and all that.

And, and, uh,

which I couldn't even believe that.

That was just mind-blowing to me that, you know, four months before I'm, you know, on mushrooms in state college and now I'm in charge of this thing.

And it's just like, what is happening?

And,

and,

you know, but then we went to Bethesda and they started training hard.

Like, and I was just like, I was still going up to Penn State on weekends and hanging out.

And so then drove across country with Brian, went to Thanksgiving in Arizona and then saw my cousins.

And then we checked, and we drove straight to Coronado and it was like a Sunday night.

And I remember like, let's go check in.

And he's like, no,

this is stupid.

We're not.

No, let's come back tomorrow morning, first thing when everybody, I was like, dude, we're here.

Let's check in.

Let's get in the barracks.

Let's start.

And so we go in and I go on that quarter deck and I'm like, hey, you know, Seaman Rutherford reporting for duty type stuff.

And the quarterdeck watch was looking at me like I was nuts.

Like, what are you doing here on a Sunday night?

Like, idiot, you know, and I was like, hey, man, we're here to check in.

He's like,

why don't you go somewhere else, you know?

And, and, uh,

And I'm like, hey, man, we're here to check.

He's like, I got to wake up the watch.

I was like, okay, well, wake him up.

You know, I had no idea.

So he wakes up

the chief that was asleep in that little place behind that quarterback.

And this dude comes out like a bull in a china shop and starts screaming at us, drops us down, banging him out, beating the snot out of us, right?

We get a little beat down.

You know, this thing's going on.

I'm like...

arms shaken, back swayed, like, oh my God, he's screaming at me.

I'm going to make this my personal mission to make you quit in the next, you know, 48 hours.

And I'm like,

holy shit, this is buds.

I hadn't even signed my name in.

And then I got nervous.

That was like, uh-oh, this is, this is going to be hard.

And, and then it started.

And, and, you know, it was like overwhelming.

What class were you?

I started in 205.

And

I made it about

I think three weeks.

And the soft sand just crushed me.

And my ITBs flared so bad, I couldn't bend my knees anymore.

They just, they just locked out.

And I go into medical and they're like, all right, we're going to drop you.

And I was like, wait, what?

And I had come under the die fair program because there was so short of medics in the teams at the time that they gave this special

program that if you signed up under this program, you'd go straight to boot and straight to Buds, no,

no A school, right?

Straight to Buds.

And then if you graduated Buds, then you would go to 18 Delta and get your Corpsman qual.

I was like, sweet.

I was like, if I have any detour, if I go to any other command, the wheels could fall off immediately.

So I wanted to just get straight there.

18 Delta, for anybody that's listening,

it's a medic.

Yeah, J Selm C, Joint Special Operations Combat Medic course.

And

so I was

i i'm now i'm like oh my god the medic is tell the doc is telling me he's gonna drop me or i'm like oh my god i just got here

and um somebody was like no let's just roll him and so they gave me a roll from 205 into 206.

let's rewind a little bit yeah let's talk about one one day

I didn't get the one one day.

This was an end doc.

This was an end doc.

Oh, shit.

I didn't even get the one one day.

And that's when I was like, that's why I was, I was scared.

And there was great guys in this class.

I mean, class 205 was just, I remember the officer was just incredible.

The OIC was like hard charging guy.

And I was like, man, I really, and then I'm out of that class like that.

Like you couldn't even think.

And

so they rolled me into 206.

And now this time I'm like, all right, that's not happening.

So it's, you know, two months in between.

There were six classes back then.

And there was two months.

So I'd go through the day.

And then after work every day in the barracks, I'd go for beach runs every day just to work on my legs, just to get stronger.

And as we, as 206 started in dock, I was, I was like, oh, I know what I'm going to do.

I'm going to be a road guard.

Because road guards, even though you're sprinting and getting crossing the silver strand and all that, road guards would get to eat first.

So you'd get to digest your food longer, right?

So you get in the chow haul, you eat first, and then you'd get, you could actually sit and chill before ever.

Cause if you're in your regular boat cruise, one day Boat Crew one goes in first, next day Boat Crew 13, the Smurf crew goes in first, right?

And you never know.

And if you're the last boat crew to go and you only got 40 minutes to eat, you know, you're finishing your food, you're getting in line, and next thing you know, Five minutes later, you're at the CTT, at the combat training tank, puking your food because you only had four minutes to eat your food, right?

And I was like, Road Guard.

So the extra training, Road Guard.

So I class up day one was unbelievable.

It was the coolest thing.

We had a great class, a bunch of amazing guys in there,

really just tough guys.

And it was interesting.

That was the first time.

They had a film crew that was going to be with that crew

and do a little bit of filming of them and do a special.

I i forget what tv show it was on but was this the discovery channel no that was later that was when i was an instructor they they did that one

wait were you on that

all those guys no because i was a sqt instructor but all those guys came into our class like i had those were i think that was like my first class i had uh as an sqt instructor um

so 206

starts week one, awesome.

I'm having like it's, I'm like, sweet, I'm going.

and end of that first week wake up friday my feet are killing me i feel swollen my heels are killing me

i tell my boat crew leader he's like you know just get through today so i get through i tell my oh my boat crew leader he's like hey why don't you just run over to medical just check it out and so i go over to medical and they're like all right we'll send you across the street go across street get x-rays and i had stress fractures in both tibias and phibias

so

that was just like

devastating.

And

I'm like, what do I do?

And well,

my OIC was like, well, on Monday, go in to medical and to talk to the doc.

So I got on my start uniform.

I go in.

And he's like, that's it.

We're going to nonverbal DOR.

You're dropped from training.

because you're broken.

You're not going to, you're done.

And imagine, you know, i it's not even not even a year since i left and now i'm over it's over and and for me it wasn't i was wasn't going to a school i was going to a ship as an undesignated e3

so i was going to be in the bowels of a strip ship chipping paint until i could figure out an a school or whatever and so i was just shattered and

he's the doc's like all right go over to the base training officer go tell them what's up so i go over to the base training officer and the grinder was i think it was it was like first phase second phase bto and then and then the quarter deck

and

i walk in and i'm standing at attention you know stiff and just like on the precipice of just melting down and he was like all right rutherford what's going on i go sir he's like hey man stop the sir stuff

at ease you better just talk to me like and tell me what's going on and i was i was flabbergasted I was like, I don't know what's happening.

I don't know why this is happening to me.

I tried to get in shape.

I've been working hard, try to get my legs ready.

And I've never had anything like this before.

I played, you know, I was a D1 athlete.

And

he's like, all right, wait here.

So he walks out.

He's gone for five minutes or so or whatever, comes back in and he says, well,

it appears that you got a little Bud's angel on your shoulder.

Someone seems to think that if you could get healthy, you might make a decent frogman someday.

So do you want a single roll or a double roll?

And I'm like,

I didn't even know what to say.

He's like, you better tell me what you want or otherwise, you know, this is over quick.

And I was like, and smart me, I'm like, I'll take a double roll.

Dumbest thing I could have ever done in my life.

Why is that?

It's just too much time.

I mean, four months is just way too much time

because it starts to grind on you where all your friends are moving on and moving forward and you're just sitting in the same spot.

But you're going in, you're getting, you know, I mean,

you know, in between those phases, it wasn't like a regular day, but you're still doing two, three workouts a day.

You're still swimming a ton.

You're still, you know, running the chow.

You're still doing it, but you're not going anywhere.

And

that was hard.

That was a really difficult time.

I was grateful because I had a friend, Mark, who was, had been to Buds a couple time before, and he was like an E5, E6,

and he had a place off, off, off base that he would let me sleep at.

And like, he figured out how to finagle it so I could go sleep there.

And

it was just hard.

I got into, you know, that was when I started drinking a little bit and partying, you know, with the guys who were waiting to class up or whatever, or guys that I knew that were in classes.

I knew a ton of dudes that were in 207

and would hang out as they were moving forward or my 205 or six buddies.

And

it just was, it was a long time and really started doubting myself again.

And then thankfully, I made it to getting classed up with 208.

And that was a life-saving thing.

The guys that I went through 208 with were

just incredible human beings.

Tom, Gary,

you know,

just

Jeff,

Mark,

Rob.

I mean, my boat crew going through Hell Week was, they were just titans of men.

I mean, all of them went on to elite level careers, really just

performing at the highest.

And these were the guys that I was in a boat crew with.

And it was phenomenal.

And it just, it was, it was awesome.

I'm not going to say it was easy because that's not, it was not easy, right?

Struggled with everything a little bit, you know, drown proofing and not tying and all your typical things.

But it was.

It was all great because they were so motivated.

My boat crew leader was a guy named Adam Smith, who was the Admiral's son.

And

you know, the one time I got close to wanting to quit was in Hell Week on Wednesday night.

And

when was it?

We had,

first off, when we started, like it was, it was, it was bizarre.

It was like an omen, right?

It was the Friday before the Sunday.

We were all lined up on a grinder and Admiral Smith came in and went down the line and inspected the boat cruise or whatever.

And he came to ours and he's standing in front of his son.

And his other brother was a SEAL too.

And he's, he looks at us and goes, sir, you know, is your boat crew ready?

Yes, sir.

You know, the whole thing, oh yeah, sir.

And

it was just a cool moment between a father and a son.

And I was really proud to be with these guys.

I mean, they were,

they were so strong, like so strong and so capable.

And you like felt.

you know that feeling you feel stronger with them like you can do more and uh he looked around and he said

looked at the instructors.

He said, all right, guys,

all right, instructor staff, I would like you to take it easy on this boat crew for me.

Essentially, just like light them up.

Yeah.

Light them up.

I did,

we did,

what do you call it?

Two steel piers.

We did like in breakout, we lost two guys, quit immediately, and they didn't reorder our boat crew for almost like 24 hours we only had five guys

um and they just leaned into us and and and

nobody broke and it was just incredible like everybody got stronger and stronger and stronger and

like bing remember bing man was just

He was just like, had that look, just angry, like always just pissed.

You and he remind me a lot of each other.

And, and, but like, nothing was going to break him.

And he'd just look at you and you'd want to like do more, like get your hands under the boat or under the log or whatever it was.

And they were all, and then Rob was always just smiling, you know, and just you, you just, you work.

But it was Wednesday night.

We had done,

we had done

boat passage and it was, it was an El Niño year.

What's boat passage?

Well, where you paddle out past, you dump the boats, flip them back in and come out, right?

Surf passage, I guess.

Yeah.

And

it was an El Niño.

And so it was like 20, 25 foot waves.

It was the biggest surf in 10 years that California had seen.

And the instructors were like,

send them out, right?

And when you talk about a

yard sale, there were boats and chem lights and dudes in water for like a mile spread out wild.

It was people were getting nuts.

And

we had a couple of guys in our boat crew that surfed.

So I grew up surfing and Adam had surfed and some other guys.

And so we just got lucky.

We timed the set and we got out.

And we're out there and we're like, all right, how do we hide our chem lights so we don't have to go back in, right?

And then, you know, you're, Adam's like, nope, let's go, flip it over.

And so we're going in.

And,

you know,

I was three-man portside

and we're going.

And I think, you know, I think, all right, we're timing set.

And that boat just starts going up and up and up and up.

And that wave just went like, went like that and just threw the boat once it was breaking.

And I remember being,

I don't know, 20 feet in the air or whatever it was.

And Rob was

like 10 feet below me.

You know, guys are in the air.

Remember, don't lose your paddle.

Don't lose.

All you could think about was not that I'm going going to hit, fall on my buddies beneath me, or the boat's going to land on me or drive.

All I could think was about, don't let go of my paddle, don't let go of my paddle.

And we hit, and obviously the train wreck, the next following sets at you.

And I remember coming up and like, I'm going to die right now.

It was so big and so aggressive and so, it was chaos.

And

you couldn't see anybody's chem light because, you know, you got those old K-pops that are strangling you in your helmet.

And you just like, don't lose.

All I could think, don't lose my paddle.

Like, I didn't even think start swimming in shore, right?

And finally, you know,

figured out, got into shore.

And

at that, apparently at that point, one of the senior instructors had been like, maybe we ought to not send him out there anymore, right?

You know, because dudes were just quitting, quitting, quitting, quitting.

And finally, we got together.

They brought us in.

They stopped.

And then we went down and did Chief's Beach.

And at Chief's Beach, they do this thing.

And it's,

they build this big bonfire, right?

And you sit around on the edge of the bonfire.

And the way it worked, they made it sound this was before, I think right after Mid-Rats.

And

one of the instructors was like, all right, here's how to work.

You guys come up, you tell the funniest story you've ever told in your life.

And then you stay up as long as the next person's story isn't funnier than yours.

Right.

And so

I was like, oh, this is going to be awesome, right?

Because I can, I've got some funny stories.

So

it started and they were good.

And some dudes would last two guys.

Now, when you're there, when you're in the line, you're just far enough away from the flame

where you can't really get.

feel it like you might like a window blow and you feel a little bit but you're still wet and you're you know you're just jackhammering the whole thing and but if you you're there next, you're right in front of the fire next to the instructor.

So I'm like, that's it.

If I can stay up there, tell the best story I've ever told in my life,

it, you know, that'll

that'll be it.

And so it was my turn.

And there were some dudes that were hilarious in that class.

I mean,

hilarious people, like funny as hell.

And so it's my turn.

I get up and I tell this funny story about

uh

a big bad wolf mask a disco ball and and and a girl i knew in in in college right and it was like everybody's laughing like it's it's laughing their brains out

and i of course i extended the story so it's like a 20 minute story so now i'm starting to feel dry it kills every instructors are laughing my hands are starting to dry i'm starting to dry off in my face i stopped shaking for the first time since Sunday night.

And

I think I went like five or six dudes.

And so in that moment, like now my boots dried, I could feel my feet for the first time.

And I got comfortable and I forgot where I was.

And then a dude got up and told, you know, hilarious study.

Everybody was laughing.

And the instructor looks over at me and goes, what are you laughing at, Rutherford?

And I'm like, huh?

And he's like, go hit the surf.

And I run, I, you know, that did it.

Like that's, I hit that freezing cold surf and it's, and it broke me.

And I was like, I can't go back out there.

Like, I can't do it.

So I hit the surf.

I'm jackhammering again.

Then something happened.

Next thing you know, an instructor was pissed at us.

made us surf tortured.

We're in there getting surfed and they're just screaming at us and the waves are huge.

And I'm holding arms with Adam and I and I look and I was like, dude, I'm, I'm done.

I'm going to quit.

I can't do this.

There's no way.

I can't go to combat.

I can't.

I don't have what it takes for this.

I can't even stay mentally engaged when I'm dry.

How am I going to go to calm?

And it just spiraled.

And

God bless that man.

He saved my career.

He was like, dude,

don't.

you know, don't quit.

He's like, wait until you're done with this.

And then we'll quit.

And I'll never forget, forget, like right after that,

he'd talk some said, just get through this.

And then if you want to quit, I'll let you quit.

And right after that,

Braveheart had come out around then sometime.

I forget when it was.

But one of our senior officers, he's one of the

toughest, best dudes I've ever met in my life.

This guy, Tom, he screams, freedom.

And the whole class

got hard.

And then we just powered through it and made it through.

And

I was on top of the world.

Like I was like, I just went through the hardest thing of my entire life and with these men.

And they didn't quit and they didn't let me quit.

I was finally, I was like, this is where I want to be.

And that was a powerful moment for me.

Who was your first call after Hell Week?

I think I, I don't remember.

I don't know.

It might, I don't know.

It could have have been my parents.

Could have been my girlfriend at the time.

You know, I was just like, make sure you pick me up as soon as they let me go first tomorrow morning.

Because it was like an idiot.

You know, everybody else stayed in the barrack and didn't move.

I got picked up.

We went down to PB.

We ate breakfast with a couple other dudes who had already threw.

And then we started drinking.

And so by like noon.

after hell week i was already starting to drink and just like you know all right now i'm i'm hard as nails.

This is what frog men do, you know, and that was the culture of the time.

This is pre-9-11.

And I think that was really

what began to manifest as that culture.

Like I'm a freedom fighting rooting tooting barrel chested fighting fucking frogman.

And I'm going to, you know, go harder than everybody else.

And

that started to come in.

And I think a lot of that was from my insecurity coming back in a new way this time.

It was more about

how am I going to live up to these guys?

How am I going to, how am I going to measure up?

Because what I saw and what I was witnessing,

people were just hard.

Like there, I remember some dudes, it seemed like even in the worst, they seemed like they weren't phased by it, or not that they weren't phased, but that it wasn't going to bug them.

They weren't, it wasn't going to bug them.

And that was like powerful.

There was a guy who I really became close with.

His name is Henry.

And

Henry was the, it was an E5, was a senior meta for our class, and he was kind of shorter and what didn't have like a seal build.

And he'd been a rescue swimmer in the Navy.

And, and those, those instructors would beat the hell out of him, like just for fun, just because you don't look like a Navy, your uniform's disheveled, you're a piece of shit.

And they would just beat that poor dude.

And I remember he would go over, you know, to report injuries or, you you know, we've got this many guy quit, this many injuries.

This is what our class count is and go report to each phase every morning and every afternoon.

And so he would come over to the cage in the pit and he'd be like, all right, all right, I need a swim buddy to go over there.

And fucking dudes would like scatter, right?

Because nobody wanted, because they knew he was going to take a beat down.

And

so finally, I'd be like, yeah, I'll go with you because I was going to be a medic.

I admired him.

He took heavies.

And

every time we'd go over there, we would, he would just, they just liked to beat on him.

They wanted him to quit.

And like, I remember on the dirty name, because he was short.

He was like five, five, six, five, seven, maybe.

And the dirty name just crushed him, right?

The one for, if you're listening, you jump up on a one little stump and then you got to clear like a six foot pole and then up to a nine foot pole.

And there's probably like three to four feet in between them.

And if you're short, you just have to wing it like all in, like to go for it.

I remember being on the Oak Course one day, watching him.

And O Course, I always liked the Oak Course.

That was like my relax, my only time I got to relax because I love the Oak Course.

And

he was stuck, he was just smoked because they'd smoked him already a couple of times.

And he was on that dirty name for like an hour or however long we were there.

They just do it again, do it again.

do it again.

And later we found out he actually cracked a couple ribs and he never quit.

He never whined.

He never turned himself into medical nothing.

And so that, that's the caliber of men you're around.

And I was like,

am I that hard?

Am I that tough?

Do I have enough?

But

the whole mindset of iron sharpens hard, that's true.

And I learned that then with those men in 208.

How was the rest of Buds?

Horrible.

What were your hang-ups?

I have dive face.

I failed pool comp.

My only thing I ever failed.

And

that was...

Tried Pool Comp.

Pool Comp is,

for simple terms, how weak in the pool, right?

It's where you're fast-tracked

into

open circuit diving.

You have Twin 80s on your back.

And like

day one, first,

you know, hour in pool on Monday, you're doing buddy breathing, right?

With these old school, you know, hose intake.

You're doing it above and below.

And then day two, you're doing, you know, ditch and dawn.

You take your gear off a specific way.

Everything has, you know, the straps are perfect.

There's a sequence.

Every, everything in the, in the teams has a sequence and soft, especially, because you have to be able to replicate it under dress, right?

And so that meticulousness is really the, if you can master that meticulousness, I think buds becomes, it makes more sense to people.

well I was never a meticulous guy so but that week I was doing good

I was my my swim buddy was this guy John good good guy a little bit younger than me but our charger and we did great all the way through

the the week

and

that Friday

you know

We got up to it and it was pool company is you start on the side of the pool, combat training tank twin 80s on flippers on jump in go down on the lines on the bottom you get on your hands and knees and you walk on your hands and knees back and forth across the nine foot and then the instructors come down and simulate four different types of problem sets first is a surf fit mask ripped off fins ripped off Next one is, I think, an inhalation or an exhalation problem, right?

Turn off your J-valve, turn off your air, you know,

mess up your hose.

Then third one is a ditch and dawn, right?

Put that, your equipment back on.

And then the fourth is the whammy knot, where they just completely take your hose, stand on your head and tuck them in the back of your manifold.

And then you have to get those.

And

for some reason, I don't know.

I was, I was dealing with some pretty heavy stuff with my girlfriend at the time,

struggling, was fatigued, was tired.

You know, all the typical things that everybody faces every day.

But you don't, those are the things like guys don't necessarily talk about in buds, right?

It's like you leave the command

and

you can, if you leave and if you can live off base or whatever, but like there's an aftermath of the day, like a psychological recuperation that takes place.

And

sometimes if you don't have that in check, you're not recovering properly.

You're not getting, you know, you're not ready or prepared for the next day in the argument.

By then, I mean,

I had been there

a long time.

I've been coming up on a year.

I'd already been at Buds.

And

Friday, I was like, all right, I'm good as long as I don't get Instructor Watson.

As long as I don't get him, Adam Watson, man, the red-headed devil, dude.

As long as I don't get Watson, I'm good.

And I go up.

It's my turn.

Rutherford on the deck.

I turn around.

Guess who's sitting right at there?

Dude, I was up in, I want to say it was like 12 seconds.

First surf hit came down on top of me, fins off, bounded me off thing.

You know, I'm like, I'm going signal and I'm going up and come up.

I feel fine, you know, just freaked out.

And then he, you know, comes up, Rutherford, fail.

And so then you get another one that day.

I failed that one on a twisted strap or something or no, sequence.

I did a sequence backward, failed on that one.

Remediation all weekend where you're practicing with your buddies.

And then Monday hits and you're right back in the pool.

Failed the third one.

You get four attempts.

And then the fourth one, I got in.

I was like, I got this.

I did everything great.

Came up.

I feel fine.

And it was one of the officers of

second phase and it's like sorry Rutherford twisted strap I had I think my chest strap was twisted and failed you're out you're old and they remember they took us and they put there was like seven of us that failed and we had to sit at one end of the pool while everybody else who had passed was down here and they were moving on and that was it and I had failed and I was so I was at a 208 And that again was

just devastating because you start to feel it, right?

You start to feel the wear and tear.

You start to feel it in your shoulders and your hips and your feet are screwed and your hands are aching all the time.

And you feel it and it builds up.

And then to fail, to be a failure now, to fail in an evolution

was really difficult for me.

Thankfully, again, I had those seven guys.

Henry was one of them.

Larry, Chris, a couple other guys

john they were part and we got in that that in-between

and you know for my

my uh

my penance

um just almost like every day or every other day

we would go to the combat train tank and guess what we would practice pool comp pool calm so for two months uh waiting for class 209 to come up uh I would practice pool comp.

And needless to say,

209 came up, got in 209.

I was the first guy in the water.

I was up and

passed, Rutherford passed.

I was like, yes, done.

And then some guy, one of the students had a had a problem.

They shut it down training.

And I was like the only guy that had passed that day.

And so I'm like, all right, sweet.

And that night I went out and to

in PB and I was like, yeah, I'm going to go.

I'm going to, I made it.

I'm partying.

I go out and I walk into this Irish bar in PB.

And I walk in and it was like, you know, in blue or animal house, the music stops.

Everybody looks over and it's like 10 instructors are sitting there.

And I'm like.

And they're like, get over here now.

And I came over.

I was like, drinks on me, you know, by everybody.

Bought everybody a beer and they were cool.

And these

two instructors in particular, one's name was Brian and one's name was Keith.

And I sat down with them and I remember the first time an instructor had ever talked to me.

Because you show up, they're like these gods.

They're these things that are larger than life.

And, you know, instructor Ashelman, Instructor Decker, and, you know, these just pipe hitters of, I mean, you know, Master Chief Danny Chalker was our command master chief.

He was a plank owner of SEAL Team 6.

And, you know, the head of PTR

was,

you know,

one of our Warren Officer Rewarts, who was also a plank owner of SEAL Team 6.

And so, you know, these are the men, you know, Chief Audis and all these guys that like you,

they're not human.

And so they're unattainable.

And you're like, when do I get to feel that?

And that night was the first time.

And Brian and Keith sat me down and i'll never forget i asked both of them i said well you know

like how do you

like what how would you describe what it's like and they're like it's a lifestyle and i was like i don't understand they're like it's 24 7 if you want to be a good frog man you have to be committed to this 24 seven every day you're thinking about this everything else in your life you have to put aside you cannot let anything move into your you know your your the forefront of your consciousness, you have to be 100% dedicated.

And, and that was amazing for me because that was, and then I asked them both, I, I asked, I remember asking

Brian first, I go, well, you know,

you know,

what advice would you give me?

He goes, learn how to flip it on and off.

I was like, what do that mean?

It's like, learn how to take the pain.

and the intensity and flip the switch on the emotional aspect of it and then turn it on when you need to.

excuse me and

i go oh well you know he'd been in like 15 years or so and i think he said like 12 or so and i go well how do you do that and he's like i don't know i still haven't figured it out

and then the next day showed up and i worked the pool deck and and every instructor that was in that like beat me down through the whole time the whole class the class so i think i must have done like a thousand push-ups that day and i don't even know how many count bodybuilders but it was worth every second that I'd made it through that.

So that was cool.

And then I, and then I was, you know, officially with 209 and ended up finishing with 209, which was, which was definitely hard.

And those guys were amazing.

Just

wonderful.

You know, Doug Liam Landry,

Mike, all these incredible guys in that platoon, Mark.

Just

they, again, it's like these are

if you want to

create a reflect, a positive reflection that you can aspire to, surround yourself around really motivated, ambitious young men.

And that's what it was for me.

How did it feel for you to graduate?

Beyond a relief.

I mean, at that point, it was February 97.

I started in November 95, and I finished in February 97.

So it was over a year.

And

I remember being on the island just hanging on by a thread, you know, but I finished and it was, it was done.

And it wasn't, I wasn't,

I didn't feel immeasurably confident.

I didn't feel like I was on top of the world

at all.

I felt like, wow, that was really, really hard.

And I knew it was going to get harder.

And I was like, oh,

like,

am I going to be ready for this?

Am I going to, like, how am I going to do?

And, and so it wasn't, it wasn't as much of a woohoo kind of feeling, you know, as much as it was like, okay, what's next?

And am I ready?

Can I, can I go into whatever the next thing was?

So what year is this?

It was February 1997.

97.

Yeah.

Where do you go from there?

This is where the beauty.

Let me just backtrack one little statement.

The guy who had saved my career at the beginning in

206 was Warrant Officer Rewarts.

He was the one who told the, and I didn't find this out till much later in my career.

He was the one who had told the base training officer that if Rutherford is healthy, he might make a decent

frogman someday.

And the reason he said that, because every time I'd have to be overwhelmed by that doubt, by that fear, which was still

palpable every day in me,

I figured out a way, because I'd always been the motivator in all my teams, whether I was quarterback or captain of the team or whatever it was, I always felt like that was a huge component of that responsibility to lift up your teammates.

Right.

And so what I would do to distract my own sense of fear, I would find a guy that was struggling and then I'd try and motivate him.

I'd direct my own,

I'd compart

my own anguish to try and lift somebody else to keep me distracted from my own inability.

And so he had witnessed that and was like, all right,

then,

you know, and that's what he saved my career for sure.

So you graduate, I graduate buds, and because I was in this die fair program, this medic program, we didn't immediately go check on board a team and then start back then.

There was no SQT as it is in its current form, or even when I was in CASUT, you used to go to a team and each team ran its own training.

That was your probationary training called SEAL Tactical Training.

And so.

Like, I wasn't even assigned to a team yet.

I was at TDY and I went to team five.

And I was there, you know, cleaning the shitters on on a daily basis in the mastered arms shack.

And I was picking up cigarette butts by the platoon huts.

And I was, you know, they didn't even give us equipment to do PT in or anything.

I remember it was middle of winter and we were doing ocean swims or bay swims.

And I was like hyping out.

We did a bay swim from the bridge around.

I was hyping out and the exo like had to push me up onto the beach.

And he's like, go do some jumping jacks.

And then I finished it because they didn't have any wetsuits to give me or I wasn't worthy of a wetsuit and and so for these four months I'm in limbo and I'm just cleaning shitters and like I'm a new guy but I'm worse than a new guy because I'm not checked on board team five I'm just there temporary duty until jump school so I do that made it through that I was tough that was a tough tough one there was the the the mastered arms guy hated me just because I started getting a little chip on my shoulder at that time because I was like wait a minute we just made it through buds.

And now because of this medic thing, like I'm in limbo and I got to clean shitters for four months.

And like, it started getting on my nerves a little bit.

And,

you know, we're partying hard.

And so I like that distracts you.

And you're like, you're not, again, I'm not moving forward in my career.

Like, I have buddies that graduated 2005.

They're already in a platoon workup, right?

They're already moving forward.

They're doing the job.

And now I'm in TDY again.

So

that was really frustrating.

But we ended up going to jump school.

That was fun.

We all went over there.

We had a blast.

You know, jump school's a joke, but it's, it's, what I like about it, though, is I love the way the Army is able to put mass people through a program and do it pretty well.

You know, I respected the black hat guys.

And, you know, I mean, obviously the extensiveness of the, I mean, you're just graduating, but, you know, do pull-ups and you can just do pull-ups forever.

But I like the way they ran their program.

That was my first introduction in Army.

Then from there, I go right into 18 Delta, and that was

July of

July of 97.

And that's where things like really were like, whoa, this is serious stuff.

And 18 Delta began.

Yeah.

When did you

get your Trident?

It was, so 18 Delta was supposed to be six months.

I was there eight months.

So that was July

when we were in New York, New York, August through November.

And then we had to take the civilian paramedic qualification.

So I showed up.

I failed the

cardiology part of that.

So I had to stay longer.

So I graduated 18 Delta in January of 98, drove across country back.

I got SEAL Team 1,

checked on board SEAL Team 1 in February of 98.

So I finally had a team, stoked, ready to go, get me in STT.

Nope.

I go back to work in the mastered arms shack, cleaning shitters again.

After 18 Delta?

After 18 Delta.

Yep.

Why?

I don't know.

I don't know.

It's not like it's a team one.

It's not like you're going to complain.

You know,

that's where you're going.

You're working.

They don't need you in medical.

They don't need you in training cell.

So you got to wait to go through STT.

That's not until the summer.

So you're going to work in a mastered arms shock.

I remember I got there and I went in and it was it was a BM1 coupe.

And

I remember I came in one day and I was like, all right, I'm motivated.

And I gave him like four or five chits, right?

And these chit, one was sniper school, free-for-all school, comm school.

Like, I put them all in.

I was like, hey, you know,

you know, petty officer Rutherford, here's my chits.

I want to go to these schools.

And I'll never forget.

He's sitting there and he looks at it.

He goes, oh, this is a good one, man.

Yeah, I went to sniper school after my like third platoon.

And he rips it up and he drops it and he goes, I'm going to put it in the circular file cabinet right here.

And then,

oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, this looks a com school.

I'd be, oh, that'd be funny.

He goes, yeah, yeah.

He goes right there.

He puts it in, and it just rips him up.

He goes, Hey, why don't you go out to the grinder and clean the grinder?

There's some trucks out there that need to get cleaned.

Why don't you go do that?

And that was that was it.

And

it was like, again, like,

really?

Dude, I just got out of like the top medical training program in all special operations, you know, spent a month in New York City

in the ERs and on the ambulances.

I mean,

we saw hundreds and hundreds of patients and,

you know, had my first person die on me, you know, it was like, it was October 31st.

We thought it was going to be an insane night and show up difficulty breathing, walk in, it says a room half the size of this, an apartment.

And there's this firefighter working this guy.

And I was with these two experienced paramedics.

They're like, all right, Rook, get on a guy.

And so, I worked this guy for 45 minutes, and then they're like, All right, he's dead, stop working him.

And I'm that the first time you'd seen death, yeah, that was it.

That was the first time.

How'd you handle that?

Um,

the hardest part for me was

I felt like I performed what I needed to perform.

Like, I went through the whole code that you learn,

you know.

But when you stop, it's it's abrupt, it's not what you thought.

Like

in a movie, there's, there's a solemnness or there's whatever.

You know, at a funeral, you're not, you know, you're not intimate with

the transition, right?

You're not, it's none of that.

It's like,

and now I'm in the middle of it.

And I'm never getting the guy's on the ground and his wife and his son and his girlfriend are standing at his head.

And like, you're the senior medic dude.

And he's on the phone with the doc.

And he looks up and he goes, He goes, All right, that's it, Rook.

Caught it.

It's called the doc called it.

And I'm still going, and I'm like this.

And I'm like, and the other guy's at his feet.

And he's holding his cup of coffee, right?

His New York cup of coffee.

And he's like, Hey, man,

stop.

He's like, Pick up all your shit.

Let's go.

And I'm looking up here at them, and I'm looking over here.

And I'm looking at this dead guy.

And that was, that was tough, like, because you saw the pain immediately in them.

And it it just

and it was it was it became almost like he was just a piece of meat at that point I was like hey I'm hungry let's go pick up your shit and as we're working getting up the cops come in from outside and I'm like and I'm like what about him like it's not our problem man that's that's the cops problem now

and I was just like holy shit

And like the whole rest of the night, I was just

like, what just happened?

And there was a, that was the thing that really was challenging for me because I chose to be a medic because I thought that that was the thing that was going to enable me to hold the artist in me.

It gets the empathy.

So if I become a medic and I can save people's lives,

if I ever have

the opportunity to take someone's lives, it'll counterbalance it.

So I wanted that.

And I also felt like that was something that would be good because it's a component of that service that makes me feel good, right?

When you're a good medic,

your team needs you and they rely on you.

And there's a part of that that's just important.

And so, like, that was the thing for me.

Like, if I'm going to be like, that'll, I can earn my way as a medic and be able to stand amongst great men if I'm a good medic.

And so

that's, that, you know, that's what i tried to do um

but that was the first one yeah that was the the first challenging one yeah

so when did you get your try to there's the great question

that summer went through stt and this was the first time they combined both coasts because what had happened before was at a team you'd show up Every team was different.

Every team had a different cycle of when they'd start STT.

You'd go through this three-month course.

It was a probationary period.

Then you come out and you test out.

You go to every, you know, the dive locker, the air locker, armory,

you know, first lieutenant, all these groups, and you test out your knowledge base on all those, you know, the, there's the blanket and they flip the blanket and every, there's 10 different weapons or whatever, five, seven different weapons, and you have to reassemble and under time and I have to assemble a dragger and then break it down and the airlock, all these tasks.

And you pass that, then you go to your chief's board and then you get awarded your trident.

That's the way it was working.

Well,

every team was doing it different.

Like you go to one team and they'd fast track it.

Like team five, you show up.

They immediately put you in SDT and then you go do it and then you come back and you test and boom, trident right into a platoon.

Other teams, your probationary period would be longer.

And so everything was kind of out of whack.

And there was no continuity.

There was no pipeline.

And it was problematic and people were complaining because, you know, part of that, getting your tried in is your special duty pays, all this.

And so

they combined STT to get everybody, all the teams, all these guys.

There's like 72 of us in this group.

And it was so much fun.

That's one of the most fun I ever had in the teams was were those three months.

It was.

I met so many amazing guys, Jerry and Nick.

And

I mean, just endless amounts of people, Big Mike Bearden, and he was the first team guy from my thing that ended up dying.

He burned in on a parachute accident right after STT, not much long after.

But like these, it was just fun.

Like everything about it was the training was fun.

The guys were fun.

We had a blast.

And that was good.

So I felt like I was getting going.

Finished that, checked back on in back at one,

took my boards, passed my ports, went in my chief's board and just got crushed in my chief's board.

And that was, that was heavy because like, you know, you're always looking for a chief's approval.

You're always looking for

them like, ad boy, good job, way to go.

And, you know, team one had some.

I mean, there was still a guy from Vietnam when I was there, a master chief.

And then another senior chief that I think had 13 platoons at that time.

And these guys were like, they ran the show.

And so I went into that chief's board and you're sitting in a chair or, you know,

folding chair.

And there's, you know, I think eight chiefs staring at you.

And they just lit me up.

You know, you, why couldn't you make it through buds straight through?

Why'd you quit college?

You're a quitter, aren't you?

Why are you a problem?

And they just lit me up and I did not perform well.

I was just like,

you know, and then they give you these, if, if this, if you were around and this happened and you saw someone do this, would you report them and all this stuff?

And, and it was just, I, you know, I was not sure of myself.

I was, I was stunned that they were attacking me because I quit college.

And like, they just got me.

Like they got under me.

And any insecurity you had, they brought it.

And at that point, I was doing better, a lot better, but I was still nervous.

I was still, because now I'm at a team and team won.

And there were some just pipe hitters at that team.

And, and, and after SDT, I went to work in the, in the training, in training cell.

I was a support corpsman on trips.

And my boss was Derek, amazing dude, brilliant.

And then, then there were these other guys.

There were a couple of guys who were on the Patilla, who was at the Patilla air raid in Panama.

There was another guy who would end up, this guy Wally, who has ended up being my first platoon chief, who had, you know, he had been in combat before.

And like, there's this Master Chief Will Geile from a damn neck guy, Matt Bourgeois, Dan Sorrell.

It's where I first met Dan, Matt Lennig, Chris Goode.

Like

team one was full of, like, they were these impressive, like, just

frogmen.

That's the best way.

They were frogmen.

And so,

like, do this.

And now I'm, I, that was a place where I was like, all right, here's an opportunity for me to learn.

Cause I was going on these travel, these training trips with platoons.

And so I was like, all right, this is where I can redeem myself after that miserable board.

And so I was like, what can I do?

How can I help?

Like, first one out, last one there.

What can I do?

And some of them started to really kind of

I'm not going to say mentor me, but they were, they noticed.

And so they would start letting me sit around and listen and they would teach me.

And so that was really cool.

And then I got assigned to a platoon and we were starting January, whatever, back from break or whatever it was.

And it was hotel platoon.

And I remember we started, I still didn't have my trident, right?

There was four new guys in the platoon, five new guys, one, one JO, junior officer.

Everybody had their trident.

Everybody's there.

And I didn't have my trident.

So I went to my senior.

senior, I'm like, hey, man, you know, what's up?

And he's like, oh, don't worry about it.

It's like two months into it, training, almost three months.

Finally, I go up to

my senior chief and I'm like, you know, hey, man,

can I get a trident?

You know, and he's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, let me go in.

So apparently, he went into the command master chief and said, hey, is there a reason why you guys haven't given Rutherford his trident yet?

And he apparently he said, oh, I totally forgot about it.

Yeah, give it to him.

What?

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

Now,

I remember when that happened, I mean, that's about as angry as you can get, right?

But, you know, as I got older and moved down along in my career and out of the team significantly, you you just go back to well maybe there was something i wasn't doing maybe i wasn't what they had hoped i would be or maybe i was letting them down

and it was it felt like i was there was mixed messages coming

and

um

but yeah that was a sobering experience for sure that really

really

That was uh, that was hard to go through.

But I got it and thus started the

How did they give it to you?

Oh, he just, he just, like, there was a pinning at team one.

And it was like the guys that were behind me that had come up, who were in a platoon, and there was a big pinning.

Everybody was there, came out, and had a great CEO at the time.

Guy was just a stuff, former damn neck guy.

He would go on ops.

Like, I remember when I was.

How did they pin you?

On the back.

We went out back grinder on the berm.

Went out the back.

Actually, we're on a grinder.

I forget there's like six, there's a picture of one of the chiefs hosing us down out there.

So I think there were six of us.

Santov come up, he puts it on,

and then everybody in the team came by and just drilled me as hard as they could in my chest.

And it must have been 25, 35, 30 guys.

And they hit me so hard my trident bent.

And then one of the

pins in the back broke off in my chest.

But it was the happiest day of my life.

So what I'm trying to get at here is

the backs are off on the pin.

Those three pins.

I think there's three, right?

There's three, yeah.

They

mash it into your chest.

It's called blood wings.

Blood wings.

What?

Blood wings.

Blood wings.

That's right.

Full-blown, as hard as they could hit.

And in my platoon,

like they lit me up.

They hit me as hard as they could possibly hit me.

Like, I had a black and blue mark on my chest for, I don't know, a week plus.

Just destroyed me.

It was, in my opinion, it was one of the greatest traditions there was in the teams that I guess is no longer there.

It's not there anymore?

No, I don't think so.

Buddha shame.

It is.

Buddha shame.

I remember at SQT, we actually used to have to hide it.

Yeah, we would hide it.

Yeah, there'd be the big ceremony.

The Naval Special Warfare Center, you know, Captain would come in, pin everybody.

No one was there.

We'd do it in the bays over at

SQT, the bays.

We'd do it in there.

And then afterward, we'd have everybody line up outside medical and they'd come in one at a time and we'd all just drill them in there.

So

we ended up trying to keep it going.

Yeah, I remember your buddy Rick Slater punched me through a door when I had mine pinned on.

Right through the fucking bathroom door.

Rick.

well I mean how did that I mean how did that feel what did that feel like to call your dad and tell him I got it so my parents had flown out uh

and

um

we we went up my they used to stay up in Laguna and so they were like hey come up and so went up there we stayed up at this hotel in Laguna on the beach and

and

my grandfather had passed away a few years before when I was out there.

Really hard on my old man, obviously.

And I had gone up to his house.

They had lived up in Pals Verdes and I'd gone up and checked on the house a couple of times and

took one of his handkerchiefs.

My grandfather always had a handkerchief with him, always, just and would always be right there with it, like true old school.

usually would have it monogrammed.

And so I got a monogram handkerchief of my grandfather and I took that trident and I put it in a handkerchief.

And And I remember being in the room, we had gone to dinner and we got back in the room.

And

I said, you know, dad, the only thing I've ever wanted from you is for you to be proud of me.

And I pulled it out and I gave it, and he unwrapped it.

And, you know, it was a pretty heavy moment.

So, yeah.

And he said, I've always been proud of you, son.

So, yeah, it was good.

That's awesome, man.

So you're in.

I guess.

I felt like I was in.

You were in.

I felt like I was in, for sure.

Where do you go from here?

A year and a half of absolute madness.

Like,

again, this is pre-9-11.

We were.

you know, team one, Southeast Asia platoon, and

it was just full tilt like we they called it we call ourselves hotel hell and I designed this you know our patch and it was this

this H which was on fire and then you know the team the one behind it and it was a black patch and I think I think out of the 16 of us I think like 10 dudes got the tattoo on them you know and we were we were crazy absolutely out of our minds it was more fun

than anything I've ever even experienced in my life.

I mean, we had my OIC

shotgun Jewett, wild Bill Jewett, was, you know, I'd been in 206 with him.

He'd made it all the way through buds with stress fractures, never did anything, like just a bad, hard dude.

And he was our platoon.

He was wild.

He was a wild man.

Our chief was Wally Graves,

one of the most influential men of my entire life.

Like, grew up in Florida.

Dad was a doctor, so kind of similar, you know, real smart, sophisticated, was a reader, you know, had that little eccentricity, but was hard, man,

and could hang and was brilliant and was a phenomenal medic.

And always pushed me to elevate my game, you know, and then didn't put up with my shit because at that point, I started getting a little cocky and started getting a little, little, a little overzealous, shall we we say.

You know,

what were you guys doing over there?

I mean,

when we first deployed,

we went over and it was going to be nothing.

We were just doing JSATs.

We were just going, we spent almost a month in the Philippines, almost a month in Thailand.

We had the Korean SEALs come to Guam.

We were working at Guam.

And then we did this one cool thing.

We did like

a nuclear surveillance stuff in Australia.

We went down to Australia and that was kind of fun.

That was around the Olympic time and stuff.

Nuclear surveillance?

Yeah.

Yeah.

What is that?

We used to have these devices where you could detect nuclear material.

And we were in charge of doing it on the water because it was a big hardener.

Sydney Harbor was a massive harbor.

So, you know, we would.

drive around in these boats with these devices and you could detect and we would train and they would have you know small little you know controlled pieces of of nuclear material that they would hide and we would try and figure out we did all low pro and fishing boats and stuff and you know that was kind of cool for sure um but the other stuff was just mayhem

absolute mayhem bar fights women

you name it typical in six crews it was ridiculous i mean it was i don't know how

first, I don't know how anybody didn't die.

I mean, the amount of alcohol we consume.

The other is, I don't know.

I mean, there were some definite divorces that came out of that.

I'm sure.

But it was, but that was the culture at the time.

You know, and so part of it was you're frustrated, but there's nothing going on.

And that was kind of the culture.

Oh, well, we might as well go have fun.

I mean, we were training.

We were training the Thais and the Filipinos.

And, you know, we're doing stuff, but it's not like, oh, we're getting ready to go to war.

It was a completely different mindset.

Were you disappointed?

Yeah, for sure.

When did that kick in?

The disappointment.

The weight on the trident, that

started to really get to me.

I didn't, like, I didn't understand.

And then for off, well, I should probably back up.

Like, because of the medic stuff, every time my career would get going, there'd be a derailment of the medical requirement.

Like, I'd have to go do medical, do medical, as everybody else was going.

Like, when I, in my first platoon, there were guys that were in their second platoon that graduated buds after me.

So here I am, like, and not just, I think like a couple classes to some of them.

And so that was frustrating, you know, that I'm always behind.

And I was like, man, because all you want to do is just get after it.

You just want to go do the job.

And so, for me, it just, I was like,

the needs of the Navy were a lot, it was a lot more for me alone.

Now, other guys have had wonderful experiences.

They were straight through.

They got right to it.

They did amazing.

They thrived.

And maybe that was part of

that.

inner insecurity that was emerging that

or maybe it was arrogance or I'm not sure

but it was frustrating all of it like i i was just like is this it is this like

i i've i i you know left the

college and that whole life and now

but this was so that was you know

may of of 95 and this is

february of of 2000.

And

I'm like right back in this lifestyle of

living hard and

getting after it.

I mean,

it just, it was like

no one, we took so much pride that nobody could outparty us, that nobody could out.

Like I remember being in

Fort Chaffee, Arkansas.

You know, we used to go out there to that beautiful range and we show up.

like first night i think we we we left the bar at five in the morning we drank we drank them out of tequila we drank them out of of vodka.

I mean, like, it was.

Why do you think that the

SEAL cultures,

at least back then, because it's the same when I was in,

you know, and

why is it so,

why is the culture the way it is?

Bar fights, booze, womanized.

I think the further away from combat you get, the more complacent the organization becomes.

And I think the combat that the teams had engaged in in Vietnam

with not only with the regular operations, but with MAC v SOG, it was just

so intense.

And I think coming back from that,

it was difficult.

Now, I'm sure if you talk to the guys that were in Desert Storm,

they did some cool, really cool things.

You know, Panama, obviously, Grenada, I think there were some guys, we lost some guys in that.

Remember the parachute, guys, drowned in there.

But it wasn't consistent.

There were some guys going in Bosnia, Kosovo.

There was some stuff.

A buddy of mine, Andy, had done a cool blowing up a bridge over there.

But it was so in between.

Like there was,

you weren't, it wasn't for sure.

Like, if I remember if you got to go do a shipboarding in team three, like you were a god, like you were a combat god.

You know, if you had, anybody had fired their weapon, it's like, oh my God.

And so I think what do you do?

you supplant that desire because like you had asked about in the beginning the desire to go do the job and the job is to go kill the bad guys right that's it that's the job if you condense everything down and distill it down to what our job is is to go get rid of the enemy that's the job whether it's through you know developing your own intelligence packages reconnaissance you know it's assaults it's it's cqb i mean all of it revolves around killing the enemy and when that doesn't take place,

I mean, famously, our, you know, that CO at Team 1, I remember some guys, another team had gone down to TJ and gotten in trouble,

which happens for sure.

TJ is just a bizarre place, man.

I had a girl die on me in TJ before, too.

What?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I had gone down there, I'd gotten back from 18 Delta, was at Team 1 and TD, you know, in the Master of Arms.

We went down to TJ for the day,

my girlfriend and I, and we were walking down Revolution, and these, I looked up, and there's this girl on the ground, another girl over top of her, like begging for help.

I literally had a face mask in my bag, come up.

I go, what's up?

She's like, she just collapsed.

She just collapsed.

And I ended up working this poor girl for 45 minutes on the ground and she ended up dying.

Apparently at that time they were serving methyl alcohol for shots and this girl had like a heart condition and it triggered the heart condition and she died.

And so

like,

I think

someone had gone down, gotten in trouble.

And I remember the team one

CO had made a comment, like we'd gotten.

our ass chewed by the master chief and he came out and he's like, hey,

you know, I understand you can't feed a tiger milk, so don't be dumb.

That was

his guidance.

And

I think that was

the mentality.

You spend all day, every day training, training, training, preparing for war, preparing for war.

That has a profound psychological impact on the human mind, period.

I don't care.

And especially with the proficiency with which our organization does it, the unit.

Again, and to all my Green Grey brothers and Ranger brothers and Marine brothers, Marsock brothers and AFSOC, I love you all.

All I know is my training.

And so I'm going to always lean towards that being, you know, the most difficult.

And when you begin to analyze our training and how it breaks down, I mean, you had.

Commander Geary in this chair.

You understood the way, the sophistication of how we address the psychological change of a young man's mind to becoming whatever it is you were before.

I had one kid whose parents were in jail when he was a little kid.

Another kid grew up gangbanging.

Another kid grew up from Arkansas with a GD.

Another kid had a master's in English lit.

You know, the whole spectrum of people, they come in with this willingness to engage in the culture.

And it's really a culture of death.

right i just learned about that term last november through my therapist it's like this is a culture of death.

And so you have to be willing to move through that eye, through that gate, right?

That psychological gate, that everything that you had known before that time, you almost have to like press pause or to delete it or to bury it in the recesses of your consciousness.

And then you pass through that gate.

And then everything out there is the cultivation of that culture.

right to become comfortable in a culture of death.

And so when you have that wheel spinning and there's no end result taking place, I think

the wheels end up

accelerating to a place where

people lose their

sense of purpose.

And I think that's what took place

during those times.

Now, not all guys.

I mean,

there's a guy in our platoon, Double G, love him dearly.

I mean, he had children at the time.

He was a devout Christian.

you know he was the first christian i ever saw in the teams who was openly practicing there are not very many no not very many people that don't fall into that not at all and and i remember i would say it's one percent or less i don't know i think it's gotten bigger i think it's grown maybe now i'm just talking about when when you and i were no there was almost nothing Like it was almost frowned upon.

I mean, we would, because he wouldn't steam, he wouldn't party when everything.

And I remember I always loved Double G because he had the most interesting life.

He had had all different kinds of jobs.

He'd worked like a crab fisherman, oil rig.

He was homeless for a while.

And he was the most confident, quiet guy there was.

And I'd be like, come on, Double G, let's, you know, in Thailand, let's go to TQ2, man.

And he'd be like, no, thanks, man.

I'm going to stay home.

I'm going to read my Bible.

I'm like.

Why?

You know, and, and, and we live next to each other in Guam.

and i would you know

why because i hadn't didn't have religion in my life i didn't have that experience my parents were not religious people

we didn't go to church you know nothing so i didn't have a base of faith in me whatsoever and double g was the first person i saw it and and he was competent

and he was you know he he wasn't

the the team guy.

He was the frogman.

And I was just like, whoa.

I was like, that's intense.

But I completely got wrapped up into the other thing.

Cause, you know, one of the things that really I think emerged out of that, those times was, you know, the intensity with which you can bring violence to call.

Like, that's the key, right?

The whole context in the teams is like the violence, the premise of being the violence of action.

If you're, if you can be violent like that, like that's a standard of your reputation.

And I remember, and I dude, if

I was not that kid, didn't know how to fight.

I mean, there were twice in college, I got knocked out.

One time I went to visit Chris Miller at Denison and I got beat up by a one-arm midget.

You know, some kid that was like 5'5,

whose arm was in a sling, knocked me out because I thought I was so tough.

Like it just knocked me and I fell down the hill, broke my nose.

You know, I was just not that.

I wasn't tough.

I didn't know how to be tough.

I didn't know what tough was.

And so you get in, you're surrounded by these dudes that are just animals, man.

And they're, they're all tough.

And so it's like, all right, I got to be tough.

I got to, I got to get into bar fights and I got to drink a lot and I got to

train hard and I got to, you know, I got to steam all night and train hard all day.

And I, and you, you are sucked into that.

And

I think that there's a requirement about it that's, that's a necessity.

Like you want that.

You're trying to, but it's very difficult, the management of that because how human beings respond to that type of imprinting is not always a hundred percent predictable especially when you have there's a proponent of there's a a

presence of of sociopathology that's existent right there that's who they're recruiting they want people that have these types of tendencies that can be uh uh programmed or manipulated into this this space where violence is is it holds a premium in in in your personality

and we do that very well very well

and so i think without war going on where else are you able to disseminate you come off four or three straight weeks on a training trip you're shooting guns all day you're kicking doors you're blowing stuff up and you come home and and what do you do like

oh i'm gonna go to bible class or i'm gonna just like go to the beach and relax now it's like let's go You know, let's go down to Fibber McGee's or let's go down, you know, to Mission Beach or let's go down to the gaslight and let's just see how many fights we can get in.

Right.

And that's the thing.

And that's tough.

Like you're having to manage this expectation.

And that's

for me,

I didn't have the confidence to pull back and be like, you know, I don't want to do that.

I was like, I got to keep this facade up.

I got to keep this insecure.

I got to hide this insecurity that I'm not as tough as these other guys.

And so

I did my best to try and represent myself as that guy and really tried to push the envelope.

Well, Dave, let's take a break.

When we come back, we'll get into your first combat deployment.

Sounds good.

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All right, Dave, back from the break.

I know it's getting ready to get heavy here.

Yeah.

But let's move into your first combat deployment in the SEAL teams, first and only combat deployment in the SEAL teams before CIA contracting.

Where do you go?

Well, when I got back from the deployment to Southeast Asia,

was

like ready for that to be done, ready to move in, got assigned to the next platoon immediately.

A wonderful guy named Mike Higgs.

Love this guy.

He was an instructor of mine in

Buds.

And my LPO

was another instructor of mine.

Gillespie was his last name.

And he was like a titan of a guy.

And I just was like, all right, this is going to be awesome.

This is going to be serious and focused.

And we're going to kill it.

Not that I didn't enjoy all the other stuff.

It was just it kind of got away from us.

And so now it's like, all right, reset.

And all of a sudden, guess what?

I have to go get my paramedic recertification done.

And so instead of going back to New York, what we did was we would go to San Antonio

and we would work on the ambulances and then the ERs there.

And

I was kind of excited about it because I was a little bit more mature.

I really had learned a tremendous amount.

When you, I mean, firefighters and EMTs, God bless them.

Nobody understands the magnitude of what they endure on a regular basis.

They just, they are on the front lines of human sorrow.

And I have so much respect for them and what they do.

And it's just awesome.

So I went out there, was going through the University of Texas, San Antonio, their emergency med program, and it was awesome.

We were learning a ton.

And then about midway through, I got a call from my LPO basically saying, hey, Rutt, I'm sorry.

I hate to inform you.

But SEAL Team 1 has decided to let you go.

And now you're an instructor over at the Naval Special Warfare Center.

You're going to be an SQT instructor.

And

It's difficult to encapsulate the pain of that one.

I mean, I know I say I'm saying that a lot, but this one was the most, the most devastating for sure.

This one was the one that almost broke my spirit completely.

Because here I am on the precipice of going into this great platoon, great group guys.

I'm not a new guy.

I've got some time.

You know, I'm getting my legs.

I'm feeling good.

I've gone through some great courses

and I'm ready to go.

And then all of a sudden, the command master chief at Team 1 was like, no, we're putting you at SQT because the Naval Special Warfare Center made out a call countrywide.

We need two medics to become, because we're short medics.

We need two medics who will be junior medics at SQT.

And so for whatever reason, the same guy who kept my trident from me

shit canned me and sent me over.

So I had a few months left in San Antonio, which devolved into a pretty dark place

and

had some

good people with me.

JT was awesome with me and

JD was there and they really were supportive and

I got through it, but it was not good.

And so

when I transitioned and went over to SQT,

I was in

the absolute wrong space, headspace you should be in when you become, when you're given the opportunity to be an instructor.

And

I just felt so jaded.

I had the worst chip on my shoulder that I had in the entire time in the community.

And it was horrific.

And I just showed up and I think it was April of

that would have been 2000,

April 2001,

and

did not care.

I was living down in Mission Beach with my buddy Chris, who had been in my sister platoon at Team One, who,

you know, one of the Savage brothers.

And he and I were just going off in PB and Mission Beach.

And he was really struggling.

And that's one

relationship I wish I had

been better to help him through what he was going through because he was going through something similar, that letdown of of the experience and the over the you know the saturation of partying and

and it was just a horrible time and we were just it was just not healthy in any way and and i'll never forget i had

gone out it was i forget how long i'd been there like a month or so and i'd gone out on a sunday night there was this little bar in mission beach i forget what it was called but i i was a regular there and i went there one sunday night had to be in work next morning 5 a.m it it didn't matter and

got hammered and

there was the ombach rugby team had had come in their party and that's where they that was their local bar and they were a huge rugby team rugby was really big in san diego and and uh sitting at the bar and one of the guys were playing pool and they like sprayed beer on his bike spit beer on his buddy and it went all over me and so i you know turned around i got my navy watch cap and my wife beater and my you know Dickie's pants and my Doc Martins and I think, you know, my one or two tattoos and think I'm a tough guy.

And I turn around.

I'm like, you know, what's your problem, man?

You know, total.

The dude was amazing.

He was like, I'm sorry.

You know, it didn't mean to you.

Can I buy you a beer?

And I'm like, no, man, you can't buy me a beer.

And he's just like, hey, I'm really sorry.

We're just having fun.

And I was like, you know, F you, man.

And I wouldn't let it go.

And finally, like, before I know it, I'm surrounded, you know, two dudes both sides, this guy and this guy just tees off and just hits me so hard in the nose and my nose just goes off to the side.

And then they just start, you know, just waylaying me.

And now I'm like, all right, I'm in trouble now.

And

my nose started just pouring blood out.

And so I was like, all right, how am I going to get out of this?

So I just like flailed up and I just exhaled and I exhaled around and I just covered them all with blood from my nose.

And they're all like, and so I like bolted out the side door, ran a couple blocks back, like

got out a bat and late

stuff.

And I'm like calling all my, you know, the instructors.

And I knew a bunch of the team one guys were instructors.

And I, hey, man, I just got jumped.

I need you to come down.

And they're like, hey, Ruth, go to sleep, man.

Sleep it off, bro.

You know, and like, hey, and they just kept.

And so I went back and I remember I was hiding in the bushes and I was going to jump these guys when they got out.

And I ended up passing out in the bushes.

And

the next day I went in and hung over, nose busted,

bloodshot eyes, and I'm supposed to teach.

And

my boss, senior chief Bruce Cunningham,

got pissed and was really pissed.

And

there have been a couple other comments and complaints about my performance.

And

so he called me in and my warrant, Mike Liu, was in there and he lit me up.

He was like, that's it, dude.

I'm sending you to Captain's Mass.

And I'm like, whoa, what do you mean?

He's like, dude, this is,

you don't deserve that trident.

And

that was the heart, like one of the hardest moments because I'm like, I knew I was messed up.

I knew I was a problem and I was being called out for it and I couldn't, I couldn't admit it.

And he was just like, you know, I don't, it's not up to you where you go.

I don't care.

You want to be in a platoon.

I know that, but this is where you're at.

I need you here.

I need you to do your damn job.

So I'm going to send you to Cabin's Mess.

And I was like, I was like, can I just explain to you?

He's like, no.

He's like, put it in writing and give it to me.

And so I went back that night.

I wrote up, you know, this long story of how

all through my career, every time medical would send me off and disrupt the sequence or flow of my career for this medic thing.

And I gave it to him and he called me in.

He goes, is this real?

And I was like, yeah, you can, you can check.

It is.

And he goes,

okay, I'm not going to send you to Cab's mess, but I'm.

I'm going to give you one more chance.

And

if you don't change, you're out.

I'm going going to pull your trot.

I'm going to kick you out of the Navy.

You're gone.

And I was like, all right.

And

I go, but what do you want me to do here?

He's like, what do you mean?

I go, I'm a one-platoon wonder.

I don't know anything.

I can't teach.

These kids aren't going to respect me.

I can't go in there.

I don't have five platoons.

I don't have this.

I haven't ever been anywhere.

I haven't done anything.

I'm an elite at drinking, but I can't teach.

I don't know how to teach.

And I go, what do you want me to do?

He goes,

well, what do you,

what can you, what can you do?

What do you think you're good at?

And I was just like, I don't know.

I can, I guess I can motivate people.

And he goes, then that's all I want you to do.

I want you to figure out how to teach medical, but I want you to figure out how to motivate because medical is the first week.

And he goes, we'll teach you the rest.

If you you do what we ask you to do, you're always on time, you're always early, you do everything we ask,

we'll teach you how to become an instructor.

And that moment changed my life forever

because he believed in me

and really kind of took me under his wing and had, you know, all these unbelievable guys at SQT,

these guys that I revered, former Team One guys, and and from other places too

um anadono and touch and all these guys carlos and

and

i learned how to teach and that was one of the most rewarding things i've ever experienced because you you you have these essentially and by then they had consolidated sq s tt into sqt it was now a 34-week program you went to buds then you went to SQT, and it was a pipeline, and they'd fixed all the nonsense.

And so you came to this program and it's like, all right, you have the primed, you know,

individual that's ready to do what you tell them to do.

Like, hey, I want you to go run through that brick wall and they'll do it.

Right.

You mean you had sensation in Buds, like you're just like,

unleash me, let me go.

But what is SQT designed?

It's designed to reinstill your own individual ability to think creatively to become a commando and to advance your skill sets more but i didn't i didn't know how to do that i didn't know how to teach and

i really leaned into these guys and watched i went to everyone's class i tried to be a part of

everything they did i saw how people taught i'd have Bruce critique me.

I'd have Matt critique me.

I had Chris critique me.

All these men would, I'd be like, what do I need to improve?

What do I need to tweak this and this and tweak this?

And, oh, and when you do this, and I, and, and they taught me how to not only teach medical, but I, you know, taught LAN nav and I taught,

you know, weapons and foreign weapons.

And, and, and I taught

explosives.

I remember DJ's dad.

came out, me and this other instructor, Andy, which was, I love Andy.

He was such a great guy.

And he was in charge of demo.

And I was like, hey, can I learn with you?

And Don came out and was like this demo god and taught us demo.

And it was like this,

it was a way of experiencing the teams I had never experienced before.

Cause there's a responsibility you have with these young men to get them ready to go into a platoon.

And like, if you don't show up at a platoon, I mean, they don't play around like.

gone like you're out if you can't perform in a platoon and so that's your responsibility but i never felt that when i was going through, I thought it was just another checkoff, right?

Get to the next thing.

But now it's like, no, we have to teach these men how to be men and how to think and how to be legit commandos.

And

it was awesome.

It was so amazing, especially going out to Nyland.

And I remember

just the impact.

And it got to the point where

Bruce put me in charge of all the down man sequences and all the FTX and all this.

So I got to create the down man scenarios.

I got to run them.

And it was amazing.

And we just started having a bunch of guys come through.

Like really, a lot of the Red Wings guys came through.

Some of the guys

in Extortion 17 came through.

All in all, when I was there, about 257 guys came through.

I went through.

I know.

We'll get there in a second.

That's after.

So

it was that summer, 9-11 happens.

I'm in a dive soup course.

We finished dive soup, you know, going through the whole thing.

That Friday, we went out to Nyland.

And that Saturday, we started IADS.

And I'll never forget, I used to give like these hooyah speeches before we'd start IATS because it's a seminal component.

If you learn to do this, you'll be okay.

Like this is the thing that distinguishes you.

If you can shoot, move, and communicate, and you can do it well with your teammates, this is what establishes your credibility.

And I remember this time, and I'd do a little, you know, I'd get fired up.

And I remember this time I was like, all right, gents, you know, look to your left, look to your right, look behind you, because there's a probability that some of these people will not be here in the future.

because we're going to war.

And that's when everything changed.

It was palpable.

The whole community changed.

Everything changed.

Everybody's attitude changed.

It was serious now.

And I really tried to lean into that and tried to

experience that.

And it was an amazing feeling.

Like it really, you felt

you felt what you had hoped you would feel by serving and then serving at that level.

Now it was real.

Like now it was important.

Not that it wasn't important.

It just it wasn't.

Makes it more real.

Makes it more real because people are going to go to war, right?

I mean,

Damnik was on the ground by the end of October.

You know, Team 3 was there not long after that.

You had Avsock.

And I mean, it was on.

They were going.

And I never forget, I ran into a guy I had known at Team 1 Christian.

And he was at a training command, but he was all kidded up on the amphib side.

I was like, what are you all kidded up for?

He's like dude I'm I got in a team one platoon that's going over next and in the spring and I was like get out of here and he's like yeah man he goes dude there's a they're doing an augment platoon called the mobility platoon and I was like what's that it's like it'll be like a mobile platoon they're gonna dust off the DPVs the different patrol vehicles and they're gonna use these things and they need I think it was like nine guys or no 13 spot no there were nine spots for this augment platoon he goes you ought to throw throw your name in there.

They need a medic.

And I was like, holy cow.

So I immediately went to Bruce and Mike and I begged them to put my name in the hat.

I begged them.

I said, listen, I've been crushing myself.

You know,

at that time, we were writing all the new curriculum.

I mean, we were just working around.

Like, I was there all the time.

And I was like,

could you please, please just give me this opportunity.

Just put my name in the hat for this, please?

I probably won't give it, but would you please let me try this?

And they stewed on it for a bit and

they put my name in the hat and that went over to Will Guil.

Master Chief Guil was the command master chief of Spec War Center and Captain Smithers was the captain.

And 13 dudes put their name in for that.

It got to Master Chief.

He sat on it for

a few, like a few days, and then it went to the captain, and then the captain sat on it, and it was down to a couple dudes, and they gave it to me.

And that's what did it.

And so I was able to, in February of 2002,

depart STS SQT, go TDY over to SEAL Team 1 to augment this DPV platoon.

And that's when it began.

How did that feel?

Like my first big win.

Like I had

gotten to a place where my performance

was indicative of

something I could be proud of and that warranted

like an attaboy.

Like, here you go.

You know,

you did a good job.

We're going to fight for you.

And Bruce did.

And Mike, they really fought for me.

And

it was incredible.

And the next thing I know, I'm out at an island and I'm staring at this desert patrol vehicle.

And mind you, I didn't even know how to change my oil.

Like I was as non-mechanical person as there's ever been.

And now like the whole thing is mobility.

And

luckily,

there was a guy, Larry, who was our LPO, who was fantastic and just.

amazing.

And then I was in some guys I had gone through training with, some team one guys that were phenomenal, Monty, Bill.

um

you know

so this is a this is a

mixed match mixed bag of nuts platoon that they pieced together podge podge yep of guys

we had some younger guys did anybody have any combat experience

no

no not at all yeah

so how i mean so if you guys were training i mean how did they come up with the curriculum for the training pipeline when nobody has any experience?

There was a master chief who had been in charge of SQT, who had actually been in the platoon, the Damneck platoon, when they built these things for desert, the first desert storm, because those vehicles were the first vehicles into Kuwait.

And so they had gotten all this success.

And there's some photos of them back then.

So they brought these things out of mothballs and they got these guys.

They put them together and they sent those guys over and they actually went to Afghanistan for a little bit with the vehicles.

And then we, I went over first.

I volunteered to go over first at Advon.

Went into,

where were we?

We were in Kuwait.

And

that's when

I saw.

the first guys that it were coming back and listening to what they were going through.

And there was a guy that had

been on a pep billet, I think with the Aussies or with the Brits.

And he had, there was, it was when Mike Spann had gotten killed, the Ground Branch guy had been killed at this prison.

And then there was this prison uprising.

They killed him and they sent in.

I forget it was either Aussie, but there was a SEAL in there who ended up dropping bombs, danger close, on the roof, and he won like their distinguished Knights Cross or something like that.

It was a team guy.

I'm so upset.

I've forgotten his name right now, but I'm a little, a little fatigued.

But, but he, I met him and like, I was like, oh my God.

Like you could just see it on him.

Like he had just been to combat.

And I was like, whoa, this is intense.

And so in Kuwait, we trained for about 70 days.

They came back for

half that, taught us.

trained us, boned us up, got us dialed in, and we're like, all right, we're out of here.

You guys got a month left.

And as it turned out, it was like for every hour we drove out in the desert, it was like eight hours wrenching.

And it was just,

I mean, it was the most ultimate crash course that you could ever receive on a vehicle.

You know, I remember Larry, who

had been in Boats Guys over at Damnik and was just like,

Here's a carburetor.

Take this apart and put it back together.

And I'm like,

I don't, I don't know.

He's like, figure it out.

And, and so we just, right, and we came up with SOPs and maneuvering and driving.

And, and I loved driving.

I mean, that was my thing.

I loved driving that vehicle.

It was just, you know, I mean, you're going 90 miles an hour at night, nods on, 50 cal buff.

It was just like, you're like, okay, this is, this is frogman stuff.

This is cool.

And then in the, we got the call in the end of May.

We, we left and we, we flew into Bagram, the end of May.

How did it feel when you landed in Bagram?

Awesome.

You know, the C-17 corkscrew all the way down.

Like everybody's on nods,

you know, vehicles out.

Everybody's efficient, moving great.

It's like, oh, man, this is it.

Like, this is cool.

You're expecting like,

they're going to overrun the gates because you'd heard about Tor Bora.

you'd heard about Roberts Ridge, you'd heard.

And then for me, the hardest one was Matt Bourgeois.

You know, Matt got blown up at Tarnak Farms where Osama bin Laden was when he was at Damnik and left kids and a wife.

And he was one of the

one of the nicest guys when I was a new guy at Team One and Training Cell who would actually spend some time with me.

And

that was the first palpable sensation of death that that kind of got me and and so it provoked a a pretty substantial fear of getting blown up because when we landed at that time there was a rough estimate of about 25 million landmines in Afghanistan and we were driving around in those DPVs which were essentially sand racers with you know a little bit stronger transmissions and some racing components and you know slick the thing was like 2,800, 3,000.

And then you'd put almost 2,000 pounds of gear on it.

And,

you know, it was not all four-wheel drive.

And so when we got there,

you know, there's, there was two paved roads in all of Afghanistan.

And then

just everything was off-roading.

And we were in these vehicles that were great at off-roading.

So,

yeah.

that was that was the first

you know the first week to where like all right right, I think all of us, me included, I was kind of the intel rep.

And it's like, I was expecting a stack of

folders of targets, right?

Here's all your HVTs.

Here, pick whichever one.

Go, go get this guy, go get the Taliban, go get Al-Qaeda.

And everybody was still

just, you know,

you could taste revenge in your mouth because of 9-11.

It was still in you.

You still had it.

And

now, you know,

there'd been some team guys that had gotten hit.

And

it was like, all right, let's get after it.

But it wasn't like that.

It seemed unorganized, you know, going into the talk because

it wasn't

what I later understood, you know, the agency was running the war and JSOC was doing the heavy lifting.

And they weren't quite sure how to employ us

outside of that.

And so it kind of felt like, all right, well, what do we do?

Where do we go?

I remember we did this shakeout patrol of the vehicles up across the valley under the other side of Bagram.

And we go up and we get in this building.

We actually got stuck on this little finger.

And, you know, they don't maneuver well.

They don't have great tournament.

And I remember we're in the rear vehicle and

I forget who was in the turret, but someone's like, you know, look left.

Look.

And right next to me, there was like three or four Afghans with AKs just looking at me.

And it was that hate.

You know, that first time you look, someone looks at you with hate and you know, that dude hates me.

If that dude could shoot me right now, he would shoot me in my face, no problem.

And I was like, we're literally sitting ducks in these vehicles.

We can't maneuver.

I was like, can you get a shot?

And dude, you can't even turn the 50 cal, right?

And it's just like, well, this is different.

This is not what I had in my mind.

And I think

it was strange because I wasn't, there was no clear direction.

There was no clear answers.

There was no clear, you guys go do this, go do this.

And so we kind of had to figure it out.

I remember it was the SF guys.

There was

the the reserve unit from, I think, Carolina.

I think it was, I forget what, 19th group or something.

I forget what their unit name was.

But I ran into these guys and they were amazing.

They had jingle trucks that they were using.

They had motorcycles.

They were doing low-pro stuff.

And

they had figured it kind of out because there were, I guess, one or two of those guys that had actually been in Afghanistan as young Green Berets during the Russia-Afghan war, and they had trained the Muhajiddin fighters to fight against the Russians.

So these guys knew like a bunch of skill sets that we didn't know.

We were still running off kind of SOPs from Desert Storm.

And

they were phenomenal.

They were great to work with.

They were very informative.

One guy gave me this book called The Bear Trap, which was the history of the Russian-Afghan war and how devastating it was for the Russians.

Because,

I mean, you know, fight the Afghans in their backyard is tough.

It's hard.

They're really tenacious.

I mean, Afghanistan's where empires go to die.

And

I was like, this is a lot different than what I thought it would be, that we would just be dominating.

And

it was almost like they wanted us out of Bagram.

And so after, I think it was about a month, we did a couple patrols and stuff, but nothing substantial.

They moved us down to Kandahar.

And that's where things kind of shifted.

It was like kind of end of June.

We moved down to Kandahar.

And at that time, it was

only SF, only SOF units, foreign and us.

And then there was like a couple Army units.

And then the CBs and then like Army Corps engineers that were, I mean, there was no indoor showers.

There was no indoor chow haul.

I mean, it was still pretty raw.

And I, and I was like, all right, this, this is a place we'll be good because the terrain was a lot better.

It was less mountainous.

It was more wide open.

So I was like, this is where we'll be able to employ the vehicles.

Because the other SEAL platoon that was in with us, they didn't have vehicles.

Like we entered the country.

We had no vehicles.

And so how are you going to run missions when you don't have any vehicles?

And And

that was another thing that I was just like,

wait a minute, how do we not have just like basic Humvees?

And we actually ended up borrowing some troop carriers from the Canadian soft, the CANSOF guys.

And so we started to do some missions at that time.

What was the first mission?

First big one was a joint mission to go in the De Rau River Valley.

We were going to snatch a couple senior Taliban guys because that's where all the poppy production and that's kind of where they were hiding out or that was the estimation.

That's what we, the intel we got.

And we would drive in big joint op SF, agency, us.

I think we had five vehicles, one agency vehicles and six, you know, SF vehicles, like huge, huge joint op.

And they were, we had put in a reconnaissance team.

There was the little village where they thought the guys were.

And then what we thought is that when the op started, they would flee into this valley because because we had put a recon team up here.

And

they would run in here and hide.

And then we would just go pursue them and get them there if we didn't get them there.

And so

we drove from Kandahar out to the Day Row River Valley.

And

it was like, it took, I mean, I think we drove for like three straight days, like just constant driving.

Like, you know, and at night, you're crawling and you get into that big accordion.

And I remember we were behind.

I was always rear security.

So I ate more dust than that.

I think I still got some Afghan ship flake in my ears somewhere from that one, right?

And

we, I remember us getting setting up, night was coming, then HR,

and I'll never forget we were going in and they had launched first because they were going to stage and hit the compound.

And then we were going to drag through if there was anybody leaving.

And

we hit and there was a vehicle coming out after HR had gone.

And we didn't have an interpreter.

We didn't have, you know, it was just a bunch of cowboys.

Right.

And I remember we stopped the vehicle.

Everybody exfield stopped.

And

Joe Burns, God bless him, man, stopped and like opened, fired across, you know, the thing.

And we're like, and everybody's like, is he like, is someone shooting?

What are you doing?

And someone's like, why'd you shoot?

And he's like, that's my interpreter.

That's, that's my interpretation to stop the fuck the goddamn vehicle.

He's like, get out, get out.

And we wrapped those dudes up and zip-tied them and put them in the back and kept going.

And

SF team hit that compound, took a couple guys.

And it was crazy because that was the first official story that CNN had come out with, Christiana Anampur,

saying.

that we assaulted a wedding, that we took down a wedding.

That was the first time time that that had happened, you know, and it was like we were just going after innocent Afghans in a wedding, you know.

And

so we went through, they did their thing, and we went to go retrieve the guys on the recon.

And

that was,

you know, we got them down.

They were, they were pretty jacked up because of the heat and they were running out of water.

And I remember that was an interesting experience

because it's like

we'd been up for so many days.

You know, it's funny, I was with

Dan Luna and Monty and we got to this place where the valley, and they're like,

all right, you three go out there and clear up the valley.

You know, and this valley is just massive and

take the EOD guy with you.

You know, and it's like, it's, there's so many places that you could get shot and you're just, you're delirious because you've been up for four straight days maybe you've gotten a couple hours of sleep or and we're walking and i and i remember with dan

god bless him man i started like hallucinating a little bit and i was see i remember seeing like a pink bunny rabbit in like a little little hole in the in the side i'm like hey man do you see that bunny rabbit he's like dude don't say that you know he's like and uh we're sitting there we're and they're like we're it's clear there's nothing there's nobody back here and and i remember this all of a sudden we look up right across about 100 meters up on this little plateau this afghan guy comes out he's got a donkey and he's like barking he's like

you know and we can't understand him so i jump up and i'm like freeze don't move and and he backs away from the ledge and i like a hauling up and um

i get up and i'm like holding on him like don't fuck move get on the ground get on the ground And he can't understand a lick of what I'm saying.

And he's just backing away.

And like, I wasn't sure what it it was in the donkey or feet.

You know, I didn't seem armed.

And I'm just like, and so I'm just like, you know, I go, boom.

And I'm like, get on the ground, like, fire.

Next thing, another dude starts firing from.

I'm like, cease, fire.

So, you know, I'm like, I didn't, I didn't think.

I was like, okay, I'll just like scare him.

And that's the dumbest thing I could have ever done.

And

the dude just turned, splits, and just like goes up.

the mountain like a billy goat.

And I remember one of our chiefs was just screaming, detain him detain him and so

monty came up and we tried and like we couldn't like he was it was like a goat like a billy goat and he just disappeared and we finally got the guys back and and they're like well what do we do now and they're like let's get out of here so we we drove out

and

It just, it kept just spiraling.

Like it didn't make sense.

We ended up, we had to drive all the way back.

We drove through this one village where there was like men 18 to 45 wearing black turbans.

And they essentially, like, we kind of got in a log jam.

And I remember Double G was in a turret.

And this Afghan guy was like, you know, like, pull off your sunglasses.

And Double G drops them and goes like this.

And he points to his AK.

And he's like, get out of here.

Essentially, like, get out or we're going to.

And

I was like, why aren't we like grabbing these guys, detaining them, you know, figuring out how to get an interpreter out there, figuring what's out, what's up?

Because it was obviously there were no women around, no children around, no nothing.

But nothing happened.

Like nobody made that call.

We're like, all right, let's just get back to base.

And

one of the things, the guys that had really given me a ton of insight were the Aussies because they had these lorries that they could do long-range reconnaissance in it.

And I remember up in Bagram, they would come in and they looked like they had just gotten into it.

And I finally went up, I'm like, hey, you know, what do you guys, are you getting into it?

And they're like, yeah, every time we go out, we get into it.

I'm like, well, how does it work?

And they're like, man, they sent us out to, you know, East Bump, whatever over here.

What we do is we figure out where the routes, the passage routes through the valleys are.

We drop little OP teams and we watch for a week.

We see where they're all kind of congregate and meet up.

And then we just go drive and park our cars right in the middle of their villages and wait for someone to shoot at us.

And then we just get in firefights.

And so they were getting into all the time.

I'm like,

well, let's do that.

You know, let's just go camp out and see if someone picks a fight with us.

And so we leave there.

And on the way out,

there's this, you know, car or this, this moped next to us.

And

I'm like, that dude, because an SF guy had had a.

like, you know, when the kids come out, you're like, oh, get the kids, you give them Skittles and stuff.

Well, one, I think an ODA team had done that well a kid had dropped a grenade in the navigator's seat and like killed this guy and so i had this you know i'd rigged up a gun on my steering calm and you know pointing my gun at kids who were picking up rocks and because they'd throw rocks at us sometimes and

and

i'm like all right i'm someone shoot that guy and it was master chief crampton at from team one who's like no right no one's going to shoot him it's just a couple kids on him i'm like all right can i run him over and he's like no you're not running and i'm like

they're they're gaining intel on us let's wrap this no just let's go and

and he was right the whole time well anyways we make this turn and there's this little hooch with this dish gun on it this you know massive anti-aircraft gun and we turn and these guys are the columns going down this tree line towards this little hooch well they run and dude gets in the hooch and starts getting on the dish gun so i think this guy's going to turn and train and and just light up the whole thing.

So I haul ass out into this agricultural field to get an angle with R50 cow.

And this other guy comes screaming and going like, don't go, don't go, don't go.

And, and he's like, like, and Master Chief's like, stop the vehicle right now, right?

So I stopped the vehicle and I had driven us into a minefield.

And

I'm looking at him.

He's looking at me and he's like, dude, do not not move the vehicle.

We're going to get somebody out of the car.

They're going to back you up along your tracks.

We're going to.

So we get out and we come up.

We go over the hill.

We come into this 30-foot crater of a Russian anti-tank mine.

We make our EOD walk, you know, for two hours on this road, not even a road, but a pack thing because we thought the whole thing was mined

and end up getting back to Kandahar.

And so that was the first, the first mission.

And I was like,

holy cow, like, this is what it's going to be every time.

I was like, all right, this is going to be intense.

This is going to be kind of cool.

But it didn't turn out that way.

They ended up giving us a little sliver of area that we could exploit down by Spin Bulldock, where you've been before, because we had gotten some information that there was a safe house there, because that's where all the weapons were coming across across from

Quetta, where Mula Omar had his tribe, right?

His that they were.

And so all the stuff was coming across there.

And then right below that was the desert of death.

So we're like, all right, we've got these DPVs.

Let's go down.

Let's exploit that area.

Let's go set up.

We put in a couple missions to go set up an urban reconnaissance that got shut down.

We did a couple, like couple ops where we drove in there.

ROIC

got got sick or something or wasn't dealing with the heat or whatever it was.

And so we had to cancel those and come back early.

But that's all that was going on.

There was nothing.

And we couldn't understand

because we kept putting in for op orders and kept saying, hey, let us do this.

And

it just wasn't going the way we thought it was going to go.

Here we are in Afghanistan.

We kind of know where the enemy.

I mean, we did a three-day recon

one time

and put eyes on this like T-section valley and we'd seen herd training.

We'd seen like I had seen on vinos like a ceremony of people getting like these black turbans.

Like it was definitely a Taoban village.

It's unbelievable.

And that was actually a pivotal moment for me because I remember on our third night and me and Larry would take the late night shift.

Everybody was running out of water.

I mean, I took in 22 quarts of water.

All the other guys had like 20.

They were running out of water first thing, the third day.

We weren't getting picked up till that night.

So I'm like, what happens if we run out of water?

And then there's a sandstorm or where are we going to go?

And so I remember that what really started like, what do we do?

Like, how do we solve this?

And

that night, that last night was the first night I had ever prayed.

And that was the first time.

I mean, you've been out there, you out in the middle of nowhere in Afghanistan.

There's no lights, tons of stars.

And it's surreal.

You're like, I'm around the other side of the world in this place where this culture,

you know, are basically, you know, trapped in the 15th century and tribalism.

But yet they were able to participate and orchestrate the most significant attack

in U.S.

history.

And we're out here hunting them down.

It just was surreal to me.

And we were in this predicament.

And it was the first time I was like, you know, I felt kind of compelled to ask God.

I was like, hey, can you, if you're there,

can you help?

Can you get us out of this?

And

that next night came in.

got picked up and we dropped another OP team off, but a goat herder had walked into the one, the OP team that was across the way from us and they had zip-tied the guy and sat on him for a while and then cut him loose when they got loose.

Well, that guy went right down.

So when our other OP that was at the end of the T section where they could watch where the training was, they got compromised immediately.

So we were getting spun up to go out, get in, but the Hilo pilots, the TF-160 guys are the greatest pilots, hands down.

I mean, these men are.

unbelievable in what they do.

Their courage, their ability to fly those things.

They're absolutely the best of the best.

And they went in, grabbed those guys and got out and nothing happened.

But immediately we put in our after action in a follow-on op order.

Let's, we want to just drive into that village and let's just light them up.

Let's go.

Let's take down that whole compound complex.

And it got shut down and nothing came from it.

And so at that point, I was just like,

you know, what are we doing?

why are we here and i remember right around then there was this thing called the loyal loyal the loyal jirga and they brought all of the warlords from all the different regions they shut all operations down and they got this thing to install karzai as the president and like so that just shut operations for i don't even know seemed like a couple weeks maybe

And that was it.

And I was just like, all right,

this is going to be it.

And then

everything changed on August 18th and 19th.

What happened on August 18th and 19th?

We

had

started a relationship with the Cansoft guys, and they were wonderful.

Those guys are the most professional guys.

They're amazing.

They actually had this great software that was our pilots were using that could map the Earth.

Because, because you know back then the mapping systems of what was there i mean we were running off 30 year old russian maps and stuff i mean it was it was poor and so they were really beneficial well they reached out about a few days prior and like hey let's do a join op we got an hvt because they were a tier one unit we've got an hvt we're going to go you guys be our cordon force right you

come in you'll get the perimeter of the compound for squirters and let's roll.

And so we were like, absolutely awesome.

Tier one unit.

They probably have great Intel.

Because one of the things we were realizing is that the

sharing of intelligence was not flowing the way I had imagined that I was told.

My first platoon, I was the Intel rep.

This group, I was the Intel guy.

And nothing that I had ever been taught was happening, right?

There was no Intel shop that you can go in and people would be like this is going on this is going on this is going on

and

so we rehearsed and got ready get out plan and the idea was what we would fly in 47s

and

the main unit would hit assault the compound with JTF2 they'd have a couple team guys as assistants in the internal our task unit commander would be in there with them and then we'd have four teams of four on the corners of this house and so I I got in with one of those teams.

So we launched, we're going in, we come down.

So it's the compounds here, right?

Over here was this ag fields, ag fields all around it,

some kind of trees along a pathway, more compound.

And so we landed here and we got off.

And our job was to get to this corner, right, of the compound.

And then there'd be one here, one here, and then one on the far side.

And

I remember

this time, like it was there, like my heart was pumping because this was, this was a takedown.

It was a snatch.

And it's like, all right, this is frogman stuff.

This is cool.

And

I was the only medic in the external team of all these four teams.

And so that's a lot of pressure, right?

It's like, all right, you're the guy.

And now there were medics inside, but outside.

And I remember getting off the thing,

patrolling a little bit to the corner, and I heard cracks, and it was gunfire.

And I

jumped down in the pro, and like, like you're taught, gunfire and snaps, and you jump.

And I remember I'm kind of trying to figure out my night vision, my helmet and my back, my med bag and all this stuff.

And I'm trying to look.

And, and I remember, God bless a man, Eric Schellenberger, who's now passed,

leans over and he goes, he goes, Rutt,

what are you doing?

Like, dude, you didn't hear those gunshots?

He goes, bro.

And he had been in combat before.

He'd been a Marine prior to.

And he's like, that was like 50 feet over our head.

They weren't even in our direction.

And I was like, oh, okay.

So I got up and I'm like, okay.

And I'm like, all right, go.

Now I'm like going and my one knot is fogging up.

And

I'm like, all right, relax, calm down, like, do your job, hold your corner.

And we had the external commander, Mike,

amazing guy, great officer,

sitting there.

And then Heath was our calm guy.

And then

it was me, Shelly, Heath, and Mike.

And he's running the SR.

Well, meanwhile, there are these Hilos over top and they're calling in.

Hey, we've got squirters.

They got out of the building.

And you can hear internal.

They're clearing and clear, clear, doing the whole thing.

And we're getting word that one of the Hilos where we were, here's compound.

We're on this corner, corner.

And this Hilos hovering here

and

has this,

he says, I've got a couple guys pinned down out here.

You know, get get out here.

You know, because he's sitting there lawyer and burning fuel and he's calling and they're not done with the total securing of the main compound.

And so this guy's like, hey, man, like, you can hear him just like hovering in this area.

And it's loud as hell.

You could still kind of communicate over here.

We're probably, I want to say 200 maybe meters away, maybe, maybe 150, 175.

And finally, they get

a call from inside, hey, we're secure.

And then Mike's like, well, we're going to go grab these guys.

So we

consolidated the three groups.

They had a little powwow.

Hey, how are we going to do this?

Because he was in ag fields, right?

Like huge, not a huge, but six, seven-foot ag that it was in.

And, you know, the ag fields are rotted.

And this guy's hanging over.

He's like, hey, get out here.

I'm, I'm, you know, my fuel, I need to get off station.

And I feel vulnerable.

And

so it's decided that we're going to basically get online and we're going to walk through the target old school,

you know, basic tactics and approach, and especially in the ag fields, right?

So it was this team was on this four,

then it was our four, and it was, I'm pretty sure it was, it was, um,

I want to say it was

Heath, no, Mike, Heath, Shelly, me, then it was Larry,

John, Beltran,

Monty, and Darren.

And so we started walking.

And

that was scary

because you know you're walking and the guy's,

the guy you heard over the radio, I've got a guy.

You don't know if he's got a weapon, got grenades, got anything.

And you're walking right into him i mean can you see no what's the terrain like i mean it's it's ag fields that are rutted so for ag for irrigation so you're kind of stumbling and it's you know the first section was kind of open and then you hit the stuff that's head high and so you're trying to adjust the depth to see through the fields and where the helo and then then the helo you get so close now you can't hear anything you couldn't hear comms between each other it had just overwhelmed and i remember Heath's comms kind of had gone down.

So I had stepped in to help with the comms to the Hilo and he's relaying information.

This is where they are.

They're right underneath my roto wash.

Come over here right now.

And I'm trying to relay it.

You can't really hear anything.

And it's just chaos.

But we're going.

Like we're going to go.

This is the mission.

If these were the squirters, the guys, and they're pinned down, that's the mission.

So we're going, we're going,

and we get into it and

we kind of clear out and they're kind of chopped down now.

There's a little clearance, but then there's another thing where you can't see.

And I, all of a sudden, I'm walking and I step on something.

And

it did not feel small.

It was big.

And immediately, I adjust one nod, I look down, I draw down, and I just start mule kicking whatever was underneath me as hard as I could.

And I adjust and it's a dude.

And now I'm like, I'm trying to sweep for gun, helicopters over.

I start calling to Shelly because I was, you're on, you're on this walk forward.

I'm here.

I step on it.

I kind of turn to here and I'm kicking it and I'm going, Shelly, Shelly.

And then Shelly comes over and I'm like, hey, hold.

And I'm like, and then I'm trying to pass over the radio.

I got someone.

I got someone.

And obviously you can't hear anything because the healer is right over us.

And so I'm sitting there and I'm just waiting for the dude to, you know, pull a grenade and just let that thing go.

And I'm like,

hey, you got him, you got him.

And we were trying to work something out.

And then

as soon as we're here,

we're on front.

I turn here, I look up, and I see Muzzle Flash right in front of us.

And

in that moment, I'm like, all right, the other guy is out there.

He's opening up.

So I immediately call contact front, scream it, contact front,

drop down,

get in a prone,

engage, you know, go through Mag.

Shelly engages.

I think a couple other guys down the line engage.

I couldn't see or hear Larry, Tommy,

Monty, or Darren.

I couldn't see them because the scrub or what was ever.

And I go in, I get out a grenade, and I'm prepping a grenade, and I look at Shelly and I go, should I throw it?

Should I throw it?

He's like, no.

And I'm like, all right.

And then all of a sudden, ceasefire comes out.

I'm like, cease fire, cease fire.

So it goes out.

Meanwhile, the helicopter had moved off behind us

so there's a second of like what just happened what what went down

and i remember

immediately that's when you heard man down

and there was a man down call

and i'm the only medic and i'm not I don't know where the man down is.

I don't know where it is.

So

I'm trying to get comms, but the rotor's still behind us, so you can't hear uncomms still.

And so what I do

is I immediately start going down this line, and I made it probably down

to Heath and the other guys.

And I'm like, is there a man down?

They're like, there's nobody injured down here.

There's nobody.

So I was like, it's got to be the other side.

So I came back

and.

I was like, all right, I'm going to go check the Hilo.

So I

made a diagonal and I went back and I came through with the Iron Cross to give a bona fides and there's dudes in a half moon out and it was the air crew.

And I came out and I said, do you have the downed man?

And you know, Halleck is still spinning.

You're screaming.

No, we don't know where he is.

We don't know where he is.

And so I'm like, all right.

So then I turned and I went back up.

And this time I got back up to Heath, but then I heard, I could hear now something.

And these guys were calling out.

So I walked forward off to here,

and

Larry had been shot.

Tommy had been shot.

Monty had been shot, and Darren hadn't, was fine.

Monty had taken around in his Magwell

right here.

So he's holding his gun.

It hit his Magwell.

And had his Magwell not been there, his plate stopped.

It would have gone right through his stomach into his spine, probably would have bled out right there.

Tommy took around

in his

upper leg

through and through,

femur fracture,

femoral artery tear,

was in a lot of pain.

And Larry had taken around right through.

the front part of his shin and blown out the back of his calf.

And so I'm like, meanwhile, I was like, we need more guys.

We need more guys.

So more guys got up.

I got Larry, put him on my shoulder, and I hopped him over, got him on the Hilo, because the Hilo was then, the plan was the Hilos on station would then fly us right on the other side of the compound, kind of up the hill.

And we would have actual medics.

on a medevac birds on station, right?

And I remember there, I thought there was going to be a dock on, like a trauma doc on and a medic and a and a army medic

and so I got Larry to the thing came back out and it would taken

I think there was like six dudes trying to carry Tommy John Beltrand because he's big dude right and just manhandle all kit and all so we got on the helo and I and I was I looked around I was like all right I got to get these guys to the helo because we got to get them out of here.

Because Tommy was not good.

Like he was, he was already struggling.

And

I was like, you guys good?

Can I go?

And they're like, yep, go for it.

We're good.

So I jumped on the helo, all my shit,

got on and just the helo lift off.

And I'm trying to triage the guys.

Like, and there was a sniper weapon that a guy had hot on there.

There was comm shit hanging down.

And so it was like a chaos.

And I'm trying.

And I got,

Larry had gotten a tourniquet on himself.

And so I just went over, checked tourniquet, checked bleeding, check his breathing.

Like, I'm good.

Then I went over and Tommy had gotten a tourniquet on, but it wasn't good.

It wasn't high enough.

So I put another one on,

got it deep as high as I could, strapped that down.

And I'm like, how you doing?

He's like, I'm in a lot of pain.

It's not good.

And I was like, are you doing with it?

And he's like, it's not good.

So I was like, all right, how much blood has he lost?

He's definitely got a femur hit, right, a femoral bleed.

So before I knew it, we sat down.

Like we were like up and then down.

And I look out and about

35 meters, 40 meters away was the 47 spinning.

And I'm waiting for a team of guys to come over with stretchers and we'd get the guys on and

we'd, we'd all, we'd ferry them over.

And so

one one dude runs out and has got a stretcher.

And I'm like, oh, shit.

So then another, it was an air crew guy.

And then I didn't know it was a medic, but it was a medic.

They came over.

They put Tommy on the stretcher.

I got Larry and we hopped over.

Like I carry him over.

We got him in the back.

And I'm looking around waiting for this team to come out.

And

there was nobody.

It was just us.

And so I'm like, oh, shit.

And so now I'm, I'm tired.

I'm exhausted.

I'm, I'm, I'm feeling overwhelmed for sure.

And I

was like, all right, what do I do next?

I was like, triage, go, you know, go through it.

T combat, you know, Triple C, tactical combat casualty care.

What do I do?

Is bleeding secure?

Is there airway secure?

Or is there circulation?

You know, are they good?

And

I was like barking orders, but was not making a a lot of sense.

Finally, the

crew chief grabs me and shakes me.

And he's like, dude, I'm like, and meanwhile, rotor's going.

You can't hear anything.

He's like, dude, are you all right?

And I'm like, what do you mean?

He goes, that's a medic.

He's on your team.

Use him.

And I was like, okay.

So then I went over to him.

I told him, this is what we got.

This is what I've seen.

I haven't done great body sweeps.

I haven't, I'm not sure if there's other wounds that they don't know.

I haven't gone under their

kit yet.

He's like, Okay,

so he starts, and I go,

I'm where, and I go up to the front of the thing of the, and I'm looking for, I thought there'd be like four big med bags, like trauma bags.

There was nothing.

I come back and I go, Where are the bags?

He goes, This is it.

And where's yours?

I go, It's right here.

He goes, He goes, You do him, right, Larry, and I'll do him.

And I was like, okay.

So I went out and I

checked his tourniquet, made sure he was good, made sure he was with it.

He was doing good.

And so I wanted to elevate and isolate so

his tibia and phibia, which was shattered, didn't just start cutting into that, his

artery.

That's the guy that got shot right here.

Right here, yeah, Larry.

And that his peptideal artery didn't get nicked or whatever.

So I got a water box.

I bandaged the back of his calf, put it on that, elevated it, and made him comfortable.

And I said, are you good?

And I was like, yeah.

So then I did full sweeps.

He's like, I'm not hit anywhere else.

I'm good.

Everything.

And I'm like, okay.

So then by that time, I had gone over.

And this dude had already, he was.

prepping a line.

He'd done the sweeps.

He's like, he doesn't have any more shots.

He's lost a lot of blood.

His pupils aren't good.

He's probably going into hypovlemic shock.

And at that moment, I realized we're 45 minutes away from Candahar.

And I was like, holy fuck, Tommy's going to die.

John's going to die.

And

that was, that was the hardest minute right there.

I was like, oh my God, what am I doing?

And the guy's like, hey, dude, just do what I tell you to do.

I was like, okay.

And so helped him get the iv got the iv just amazing medic unbelievable dude like he was just on the point the whole thing was amazing

and

so then i got

john situated comfortable i was like you good and he's like yeah i'm in a lot of pain but you could tell he was his leg at that point was probably this big

I mean, he was, he was definitely in hypovlemic shock.

You know, it's hard to see in the lights on the thing, but it just did not look good.

And

so the guy was like, he's like, give me something for pain, please.

Give me.

And I was like, hey, man, what do you want to do?

He's in a lot of pain, really hurting.

He's like, I'm nervous because he's in hypolemic shock.

If I give him a lollipop, you know, morphine or fentanyl lollipop, it could put him into respiratory distress.

And I'm not sure I want to do that.

And so we took off and we started going.

And I'm just kind of lying with John

and

just trying to be like, you're good, you're going to make it.

We got you.

This guy's got you.

We got an IV.

You're good.

We're going to get you back.

We're almost there.

And you could just see him.

He was going in and out.

And I'm like, here it comes.

Like, this is the moment where this guy's, my friend, is going to die in my arms.

And thinking, you know, I didn't think back to,

you know, what

Bud Miller had said, but now I'm in this moment.

And

he, we gave, we ended up giving him the lollipop.

That really helped him.

It slowed his heart rate down, but it didn't, it slowed the blood pumping down.

And so it was like, then we started packing his wound.

He was packing.

And like, he's dude, this medic again.

I can't.

John Beltran would have died that day if it had not been for this guy, for sure.

And it was just, it was the,

maybe he was the angel that needed to be there for me or whatever it was, but that, that dude was amazing.

So we got back and by the time we got back to, we landed on

in Canahar and there was a full medical team waiting.

They came running out.

They grabbed them both.

I mean, they were amazing.

I mean, it was a whole thing and immediately got them in,

got them into, you know, there's a surgeon there and it was unbelievable and it was like okay

meanwhile i have no idea what's going back on the target what's happening no nothing all i know is we've got it back they're not gonna die unless you know they die in surgery and certainly it was a possibility for for john

and

he

It was,

everybody was amazing.

Like everything just, it was operating.

It was was like, oh, wow, this is really cool.

And immediately I went into a debrief and some said, I forget what chief I sat down with, but immediately tell me the story, top, bottom, one out.

So I gave him the debrief.

And they're like, all right, dude, you're done.

Go back to the hooch and just chill.

We'll come get you in a minute if we need you.

And so I

didn't want to leave, but they're like, get out.

Go, get out of here.

We got it.

These guys just need their health, their care.

And I was like, okay.

So I got my shit and I went back.

And

I remember I got a cigarette and I was sitting just outside, just trying to process what had just happened.

And

I was just like, thank God they're not dead.

I just thank God that they didn't die.

And

just smoking a cigarette.

Well,

sun was coming up.

And immediately

Humvees came in.

It was guy from guys from the raid, the other group.

And Darren came out and I was sitting there and gave him a cigarette.

And we're having a cigarette.

And he goes, hey, did you hear what happened?

And I said, no,

what happened?

And he said, the doc dug 556

out of John's leg and Larry's leg.

I'm like, what?

He's like, yeah, he dug 5.56 frag out of his leg.

And in that moment,

my life changed

for a long, long time.

Because

immediately I had the sensation that I was the guy who had shot them.

Shit.

How did you know?

I just felt it.

I just felt it.

When I had spun around to contact,

maybe I spun too much

and I and because what had ended up happening was,

and this, I got this from Darren, because Darren had taken shots at a squirter.

And I'm like, well, wait a minute.

What do you mean you shot?

He's like, yeah.

He's like, I took some shots at a guy that was running away, the other guy.

And I'm like, well.

And so, as we talked it out,

it immediately kind of flushed out in my mind where, as we were walking through,

when I stopped with

Shelly on the guy, they kept advancing.

And

what I think happened is they began advancing a little on an angle.

And so Darren got out to here.

saw a guy running away here, maybe the other guy that they had pinned down because the helicopter had moved off site.

And Darren took a couple shots at this guy.

And I think that's what I saw.

And so when I dropped into the prone,

instead of being straight eye line, I think I was on an angle.

And my round hit Larry's leg,

hit Tommy's,

hit Larry's shin,

hit Tommy's

leg,

and hit Monty

in the Magwell.

Holy shit.

Yeah.

Now,

none of that

was said.

Nobody came to me over the next few weeks.

Nothing happened.

There was an investigation that took place, but nobody pulled me off the set and said, hey, Ruth, man, we think this is what happened.

Nothing.

We kind of had to stand down for a few days.

I think we did one thing after that, but we ended up

leaving Cantahore on September 10th of 2002.

And

I remember both feeling relieved that we were leaving, but also

an incredible weight that

eventually eventually that was all going to come out.

In some way, I didn't know how or why or anything.

And that I was going to have to face what that meant for me and my reputation.

But even more so that, you know, the idea that maybe I had shot my own guys.

And

what I was going to have to live with with that.

So

when we landed in Bahrain,

those few weeks was

really difficult.

I was completely isolated.

I truly tried to

distract myself, obviously, with a lot of booze, you know, almost got in some trouble with Tage.

and just tried to run from it.

And meanwhile, people are like, hey man, what happened out there?

You know, did you save those guys' lives?

Tell me the story and all that.

And I was like, nothing happened.

And didn't want to say it, didn't want to talk about it.

And

then redeployed home.

And I'll never forget, redeploying home, just shame, just a level of shame that was just like a cloud.

that just followed me everywhere I was going.

And we got in the middle of the night, North Island, you know, team one, come out the door.

It's, you know, one, two in the morning, one, 12, 31, two in the morning.

You know, there's dudes with their wives and their kids, and

everybody takes off and there's nobody there for me.

I didn't have any place to stay.

I didn't have anywhere to go.

And then a buddy might have been like, hey, dude.

I'm going to go take off with my friend.

You can go stay at my pad if you want.

And it was Andy.

And so I went down into IB

and

he was, you know, I think it was like 234 crawls, crawl steps away from

the shithole bar down in IB.

And so got down there, went in that bar and drank myself into oblivion.

And then

a day or two later, got on a plane and was in South Florida for leave, post-deployment leave.

Shit, Dave.

Yeah.

Did it ever come out officially?

They did another investigation when I'd gotten back, and

I remember

because they had wanted me to do the brief in medical.

Like we had another, I got back in November and class started.

It might have been your class or it was the class right after that.

And

I remember telling the story

almost like, I was like, it was almost like a confession of my ineptitude.

It was a confession of my

of my unworthiness, you know,

and that somehow I was in this, it was like

my penance.

almost.

There was no pride in it.

There was no excitement in it.

There was no, I wasn't,

I wasn't, I felt ashamed completely.

And then I think it was either before or after Christmas,

I had heard from Mike Lou that there was an investigation that had come down and it had been determined.

It was inconclusive

how they were shot or who shot them.

They just couldn't determine that specifically.

And some of, you know, I would imagine that some people might go, well,

you know, you don't know.

Like, there was no definitive, like, you don't know if you did it or you didn't.

And

there's just, it's just,

I always just believed I did.

And

that sent me into a spiral that's almost destroyed me again.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How are those guys now?

Larry's wife,

I want to say

2006 or 7 around that time.

It was a lot of blur.

Those next three years, four years were pretty blurry.

I used to call him in the middle of the night and begging for his forgiveness and crying.

And,

you know, whether I was hammered on alcohol or cocaine or whatever it was,

just begging him to forgive me.

And finally, she was like, you know, Rutt, you can't call anymore.

Don't call again.

So I haven't spoken to him since then.

And

John Beltran overdosed

last fall

and is dead.

And

he battled a lot of demons after that injury.

He was never able to really get back to full duty.

He

got hooked on pain meds and became a pretty substantial addict on and off for

20 years

was married had kids and lost that marriage everything and

and you know what's crazy is is he would call me for years every August

18th 19th and he'd be like hey Rudd man how you doing

are you good and

For years I would not pick up because I was ashamed.

And then,

you know, finally I'd pick up.

And I remember one year, I forget what it year it was,

but I just started weeping.

He's like, why are you crying?

I was like, man, I ruined your life.

You know, I took your dream of being a team guy away from you because I fucked up.

And I'll never forget.

He's like, man, you saved my life.

He goes, I'd be dead if you didn't act.

He goes, war's hell, man.

It's confusing.

It's crazy.

But if you hadn't have done that, I'd be dead.

And

I was never able to rationalize that as an acceptable component of

my life, my existence, until I started, until I met Johnna.

But last fall, when I got a call from one of my other closest friends, Johnny Sotello, who was very close with John and Scotty Wertz, and,

you know, he's middle of the night, typical call.

He's like, hey, man, Johnny's dead.

He just overdosed.

And that was devastating because, you know, I would have been.

I just wish I could have allowed his forgiveness to seep in.

And then I, for some way, shape, or form, could have helped him

could have helped him rebuild his life or something.

And so

that's going to be with me.

Damn, Dave.

You know, I know that was a big.

I know you've battled that for a long time.

How are you doing now?

I mean, it's definitely cathartic to be able to

speak it openly.

I think there's probably

six or seven people,

you know, friends of mine from the community and when I was at Blackwater, the agency.

And,

you know, they've been amazing supporters and always say the same.

You don't know if you shot them.

You know, you still were in there with them.

You still helped them.

You know, and they've always been even you.

You've always been just, I mean, I remember the first one I told you and

You were just like, man, you can't let that pull you down.

And,

you know, you made a gesture to me not long after that that was,

you sent me something and, you know, I

have it buried in my closet.

And

every now and then, you know, it'll be stumbling through and I'll see it.

And I'll just remember the support that I've been given and people who care and

know what.

how devastating that's been for me.

And,

you know,

the thing

that you always want from when I was a little kid was just

not to let your teammates down.

So I think,

you know,

I'll get an opportunity,

you know, to

hug him and to say I'm sorry again.

And I'm sure him being him be like, right,

it's good, man.

You're all right.

You know, and if Larry's out there,

I'm sure, because he had said the same thing a few times, too.

It's like, man, it's okay.

Don't worry about it.

You know, there's a strange

thing in our world.

You know,

your whole reputation is built on what's going to happen under fire.

You know, everything.

And,

you know, that

few hours

contorted my entire perception of what I could do and what I was worth

for the next

decade plus

and warped my interpretation of who I am and

whether I could do it.

you know

i shut every

dream down within the the community rapidly after that.

You know, I'd wanted to potentially screen, you know, but there was no way I could.

I was like, I'm going to

put my name in the hat and someone's going to hear it.

They'll be like, you know, fuck that guy.

He's not worth it here.

He can't handle himself out there.

And,

you know, and then I was like, all right, well, how do I redeem myself?

And,

all right, well, maybe I'll just get back in another platoon and

maybe go to Iraq or whatever.

And

then I was like, man, how do I live with it every day?

And every, you know, I finally, and it was crazy because the detailer, when I got back, I'd inquired, I'd asked, hey, that was my second deployment.

You know, it was a combat deployment.

Can I put my name into screen?

There was a screen in November and, you know, my bosses had had hacked off.

The master chief at Team One had agreed he would put me in.

But, you know, then I'm like, man, I can't, there's no way

somebody knows.

Somebody's going to say, hell no, we don't want him over here.

And so, you know, then it was like, all right, hey, how do I get in my other platoon?

And the details are like, you're not going anywhere.

You just took a little combat vacation for February to October from SQT.

You're going back to SQT.

You're giving me that time back.

Then you're only an 18-delta short course corpsman.

Then I'm going to send you to the long course because we need long course IDC medics in the teams.

And then once you're back from Fort Bragg, then I'll let you go to a regular, you're going to go back to a regular platoon and you're going to do another regular platoon.

And then maybe you can screen after that.

And so I, it was,

even if,

even if any of that had seemed seemed like

a pathway to salvation for, I just never believed I could ever recuperate my reputation in the teams.

There would always be somebody somewhere who knew that I had shot my own guys.

So I got out.

Looking back,

what do you think you could have done differently to hide?

P.I.D.,

if there's anything I can say to anybody who carries a gun for a living,

positively identify what you're going to shoot at.

If you don't...

And it's crazy.

Is it possible?

I don't know.

I don't know.

I mean, I've...

gone through this scenario thousands of times in my mind.

I've evaluated my training.

Did I execute the training with which I was trained?

You know, I think about all those hundreds of hiads at night at Nyland,

you know, in the night, contact Front, you know, drop, open fire, peel left, peel right.

Like,

I think I did what I was taught, but I also know I wasn't sure.

Like, I didn't have a dude in my sight with a gun.

I reacted to muzzle flash.

And,

you know, I don't,

so

it's, it's that,

I think, you know, that's the key.

And that's the difference between, I think,

I say all this and I explain all this as a sensation.

Like, this was the lesson was my own humility, maybe.

The lesson was my

being more meticulous, being more methodical, being more focused, being more whatever it is.

But that's not the lesson.

The lesson for me is

this was

a deployment.

Remember when you asked me, why did you go in?

Did you want to kill people?

And it was more about that confrontation of death and how I would react and what I would do.

And so that recon where I prayed and I felt the presence of God for the first time in my life.

Immediately after that, God started testing my resolve.

Was I going to maintain my faith?

There was even an occurrence where we had gone out and done this long-range recon.

And

mind you, when we were living in Canahar, we were in these GP tents, horrible, 120 degrees out,

Afghan dust, everything.

And I would sit in my bunk here here and across from me would be Monty and JC, John.

And every day that we'd be in there, they would sit and have Bible study together.

And every day I would watch them and think to myself, what are they doing?

How do they do this?

How do they connect to God or to...

Jesus or whatever that means in this moment.

Like, why?

Why are they doing that?

And I didn't understand it.

And I didn't understand why it was so moving to me to watch them.

And they would share Psalms

or, you know, all types of verses from gospel to the Old Testament.

And they would talk and they'd have Bible study together.

And I would sit there and just perplexed and like, why?

What is it doing for you?

And

like after that recon, I was like,

pray.

And I felt something.

And then a couple of weeks later, we were doing this op

and we were out in the DPVs.

Nothing happened.

We got picked up.

We came back.

We were in the backs of the helicopters.

We hit the flight line.

We came down and we set up on a flight line.

Well,

before

one,

a guy had,

you know, gotten on

this, the Hilo had coming off, he had forgotten to clear his Mark 19, you know, the Belfed grenade launcher on the front passenger of the DPV.

And so we got on like there and i'm sitting there and he had gotten sick

on

the the vehicle from the fumes in the back and puked all over and so i've got my video camera typical douchebag and i'm like ha ha ha ha new guy's puking and he can't hold his whatever and ha ha ha and just get down in vehicle and our senior is like hey man let's go they'll they'll be right behind us so we pulled out we left and we came around this fuel truck on a flight line go around that and And we're going to get back.

And he's like, hey, man, where are they?

Let's go back.

And I was like, all right.

So we back up, come around, go back around the fuel truck.

And the fuel truck front cab is smoking.

And I'm like, that's weird.

So we come out and come up.

And Larry's just sitting, just shaking his head like this.

And

JC's up down like this.

And

I'm like, what's going on?

And

he had accidentally, when he cleared it, sent one flying, sent an egg.

And it, right when we had come around the back, it had hit the cab, gone through to the front of the cab.

And because of the metal plate on the driver's seat, it hit that, it detonated in the cab.

Had it been a foot up, it would have gone through the seat, through the back, hit the fuel tank, exploded the fuel tank.

We would have been covered in fuel.

And I'm like,

oh my God,

why am I not dead?

And then a few weeks

later, that experience happened.

Why aren't they dead?

And so now I'm in this battle of trying to make sense of what I'm supposed to take away from this deployment.

Not, oh, you're dialed in.

You're a team guy.

You're a real frogman now.

You're strong and you're capable and

you've got conviction and you can face things.

It's more of

God's trying to tell me something about my life and what he wants me to do.

And

I wasn't, I didn't know how to evaluate that.

I didn't know where to begin.

And over that Christmas break, I'd met somebody

and was like, all right, let's get married.

That'll take me away from this.

It'll give me, and it was an excuse.

It was a passionate romance that happened quickly.

It seemed like it was a fit.

And so fast forward, I asked her to marry me in a short amount of time.

And I was like, that's it.

I'm getting out in June when my second enlistment's up.

And I'm moving back to Florida.

I'm going to get married and I'm going to have a normal life.

And I'm going to figure out whatever I'm supposed to figure out.

And that began

a

very arduous, difficult

couple years, three years.

And kind of the

there's a couple major points.

One was Passion of Christ came out in February of

04.

I remember going to it.

Meanwhile, I've never read the Bible.

I've never studied the Bible, nothing.

And I go to this movie, and from the first word that Jim Coviziel spoke, and

your interview with him is one of my favorite of all time,

I was weeping uncontrollably, like broken down.

And then the whole, from the moment he's, they bring him in and they start beating him all the way through to the crucifixion, I was uncontrollable.

and it didn't stop.

I continued in this uncontrollable weeping for hours and hours afterwards.

And then finally I kind of calmed down.

There was a knock on the door

and in came this box

and I was like, she's like, who's that from?

I was like, I don't know.

And it said, you know, JC up top.

And I opened it up.

And it was from John.

And it was a gift.

It was our platoon plaque.

and it was a bottle of Patrone because he had felt so much shame and horrible that

it happened, that I possibly could have died.

That he had come up to me.

He's like, man, I'm so sorry.

It's like, hey, dude, don't worry about it.

Just, you know, he's like, what can I do?

And I was like, in the future, give me a bottle of tequila.

We're even.

It happens.

I know you didn't want to.

I know you didn't need to.

I know you didn't.

have to do that.

And so like, here I'm consoling this guy who I'm witness to praying praying every day.

The day I see passion, the clutch sends me this thing.

Then I start thinking about why.

Initials, JC.

That's right.

And that was the fight now I'm in.

I felt like God was trying to communicate with me, but I was so ashamed of who I was and what I was that I couldn't do it.

And that was where things were ugly.

Because she quickly realized this was not a healthy relationship.

She decided that

we're done.

And kind of right at that time is when I got an opportunity.

I went to work for Blackwater in the fall of 2004.

Let's stop.

Yeah.

Let's go back.

Yeah.

For starters, I just want to say

there's been a lot of vulnerability in that chair, and a lot of

humiliating

confessions.

I think what you just

did

is the hardest thing I've seen anybody

articulate.

Thank you.

Proud of you.

Thank you.

Love you.

Love you too.

What would you have done different

after the incident when it comes to your relationship with these guys?

I should have gotten more involved in

wanting to know how the investigation took place,

what other people thought, what they saw.

Like, it was almost like nobody would speak about it, especially to me.

I think other guys probably talked about it.

But

I almost just got isolated.

And so that would have been much better for me and to go and to engage in it immediately.

I think I shouldn't have gone home when I got home.

I should have, when I got to Bahrain, I should have sought out

a pastor or chaplain or my chief or senior chief or someone

and said, I'm struggling.

I need some help.

But that just wasn't a thing then.

There was nothing.

And when we got home, it's like,

see, in 30 days, and there was no support.

And so I came to Florida and I'll never forget, man.

My best friend's younger brother had a bachelor party and we went down to Key West for this thing.

And

I just was inebriated for days on end and just

couldn't communicate, couldn't talk, was detached, distant.

So I wish I had done more to re-engage in a conversation again.

I just keep going back to that reality.

You're not going to process this at an individual level.

It's too immense.

And that's the component within the human condition.

That's this intensity of pain.

And when you have overwhelming pain, it elicits

the deepest fears you have about your own insecurities, your own ineptitude, your own, you know, these fears, they overwhelm you.

They begin to control you.

And the only way you can diminish those is to engage with people that can help you deconstruct those fears, pull them apart, take one piece, rationalize that one piece in a way that you can

comprehend and handle.

And I think that's a really intense thing, right?

It's like, but

I turned 30 in Afghanistan and I certainly wasn't 30 emotionally in any way.

And

I think,

you know, that's just the thing.

You have to be able to go and engage.

You have to do this.

And I wish I had done that more with every one of those guys.

And I've pulled so away from all of those, I've lost touch pretty much with, with everybody that was a part of that platoon.

Those are the other platoons that was there, people that were affiliated with people that were,

you know,

that were at SQT with me.

kind of pulled away from them.

You know, the only person I really tried to stay stay in touch with was Bruce.

You know, he ended up contracting, ran into him, but I'd call him and try and talk to him and stay in touch with him, try to start a little business with him.

And,

you know, he ended up going through some challenges and ended up drinking himself to death.

And so I think that was.

kind of the person that I had always hoped would give me the attaboy that would kind of

replace that shame with

some estimation of

acceptance and maybe even a little forgiveness.

And I think that's the thing we're all ultimately looking for.

We're looking for forgiveness, right?

We're looking for someone who loves us deeply to look at you and say, it's okay,

things happen.

You know, we understand.

And that's why my battle and my pursuit of Christ for the next 10 years was so substantial and so difficult because I didn't know how to ask Christ for forgiveness.

I didn't know where to go for forgiveness.

You know, and it wasn't like there weren't people that were gracious and supportive, but

it wasn't until really 06

where I went to church for the first time really ever on my own.

And it was a guy, a mentor of mine named George Andrews, Reverend George Andrews, who

was the first person that I was like, what does it mean to have faith?

And that's kind of really where I started to heal.

How do you feel now that you've shared that?

Your deepest?

I mean, it's

nerve-wracking.

It's scary.

It's scary.

I mean, I've got to walk out of this room.

You know, this episode will drop.

And, you know,

I give 100 speeches a year.

Last year, I was in front of almost 4,500 people.

I've got my own show now.

Again,

I'm public.

You know, what's going to happen to my kids?

Are their parents going to tell their friends?

Are they going to be ashamed?

You know, I know my wife is not because she knows the story and has been overwhelmingly the person who's benefited me most for processing that because she's had to process her own sense of shame at a high degree.

And so,

you know, but you don't know, you don't know how the world's going to react.

But what I do know is that

I know that Christ loves me no matter what.

I know

John had forgiven me.

I know Larry had said he'd forgiven me.

And I know other friends of mine that, you know, are part of the community and the adjacent communities have said, man, it's okay.

Like, you don't need to carry that burden for your whole life.

So,

yeah.

Well, you got a lot of respect for me for doing it.

Thank you.

I think you're going to feel a lot better.

I think so.

I mean,

you know, we've talked about it.

I mean, we've talked about it extensively and we talked about it in the lead up to this.

And

I don't think there'd be anybody else I could do it with, you know, in this capacity.

You know, it's hard because,

you know, there's a measurement of success

that

I think the public has or a measurement of interpretation of how they interpret success of our community.

And that's, you know, these massive stories.

I mean, you hear about these missions and these things that these guys get engagements and all this.

And,

you know, there's, it's not like they're

they're not

building themselves up their bravado.

I think sometimes people have a tendency to look for that and people will embellish certain stories.

And obviously, that's always a challenge in anybody that's public or whatever.

But,

you know,

this has been that thing.

It's like, hey, this is the reality of my combat experience.

I don't have any,

you know, grand firefights.

I don't have any.

I don't have any like, oh, you saved the day.

I don't, I don't, I don't have any of that.

So I have that, that, that incident has encapsulated the space and spectrum.

Now, I chased,

I chased

redemption for years.

That's why I went to Blackwater.

That's why I went to the agency.

I thought some moment, some time I would have a moment where I could redeem myself.

And, you know, there's been some things I've gotten, I was able to do that were

positive and healthy and all that.

But, you know, it

doesn't make that ever go away.

So, what you have to do is you just have to address it.

You have to live with it.

You have to recognize that it's a piece of your life, it's not all of you.

And I think that has taken me

20 plus years to figure out

phases of life, Ben.

Yeah, man.

I think this is that moment.

It certainly feels like it.

Good.

Let's take a break.

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All right, Dave, we're back from the break.

Hopefully, we can lighten it up here a little bit.

Me too.

But I do, I just want to, I just want to say again, man, I know that took a lot of courage.

to get that vulnerable and to talk about that.

And,

you know,

however people judge it from here on out i mean

you're a great person thank you and that's all that really matters thank you i appreciate that you're welcome yeah

so then you go to work at blackwater

that was a hell of a story right there uh my

Fiancé had basically said, no, we're not getting married.

And then then I was working for a domestic security company out of Grand Rapids, Michigan called DK Security.

I was selling camera systems to strip malls.

And I was, and the whole pretense, I went to work for this guy, and he was a great guy.

John Kendall was his name.

Really amazing guy.

Vietnam vet, U.S.

Marshal, was partnered with an FBI guy, but John was really amazing guy.

My, my uncle, Dave, from Grand Rapids, had known him, gotten me the interview, and gotten the job and really put a lot of confidence.

But the whole thing was like they were going to let me start a division that I could start bidding on contracts overseas in Iraq and Afghanistan, which was where the money was, right?

You know, and, and so I had recruited like six guys, two guys to come and help start it and launch it.

And there was a couple and figured out, I never forget he was like, well, why don't you write up a business plan for me?

And, and I'm like, well, what's a business plan?

And he's like, you'll you'll figure it out just so i go down to like office depot and get business plan pro writers plus

you know and it's like this thing and it's like oh you know what's your ibita and what's your and i'm like i have no idea so i went page by page step by step insurance you know lloyds of london figured this and wrote this 34 page and like a month later dropped it on his desk because i would go up there once a month and he's like what's this and i go this is my business plan for being starting contract work overseas because it's incredibly lucrative.

And I think we could kill it.

And he's like, okay, I'll get back to you.

And in the fall,

I was not doing good.

I was struggling still, really, really trying.

Like when I first got out of the teams, there was a stretch

in August.

I got out in June, end of June.

03, but in August, I had a 21-day stretch where I was vomiting and diarrhea.

And like, it just was, I couldn't, I was just sick, really sick.

And nobody could figure out what it was.

Nobody, and I just think it was the stress.

It was maybe a parasite.

It was something, whatever.

And I was a mess.

And

the first person to really help me begin to heal

was a woman named Maggie.

Maggie was a woman.

She was a healer, a masseuse.

She's amazing.

And I had met her when I got home from that deployment.

I couldn't turn my neck.

My neck was so jacked up.

And she had helped my mom, who was a tennis player, her scapula had frozen and she had released it and was a wonderful person, amazing.

So she had put me on her table for like four hours and finally I could move my neck for the first time in months.

So I got out.

I'm a mess.

My mom's like, you're not okay.

And I'm like, yeah, no, no shit.

And she's like, well, you ought to see Maggie.

You ought to work work with Maggie.

And I was, I was like, I can't afford her.

She's incredibly expensive.

Right.

And, but it was phenomenal.

She goes, well, she's got a son.

Why don't you, you know, work?

Her son wants to learn how to play football and lacrosse.

You know, why don't you barter?

So I called her up and I said, hey, would you be interested?

And she's like, absolutely.

So we trade.

I started working with her son.

I think he was 12 years old.

And they're single mom, whole thing, rough upbringing, dad, not in a pitcher.

and

and she would heal me and i'd get on the table we'd probably meet once every two months and i would be on that table for four hours and that started the process my body and my nervous system that was the beginning of me trying to figure out but you know by the next year i'm miserable in the job and and

the

and you know this very kind, nice young woman that I was with, she was just like, I can't do this.

And I was like, all right.

And then it was something like that.

A day or two later, my buddy Joe Master Angelo, who I'd gone through training with, I was at Team One with, my first platoon with, you know, old Chochi.

And

he called and he's like, he's like, Rutt, I was like, what's up?

He's like, hey, man, I need a guy.

You, me, maritime interdiction program overseas.

I need to know right now.

And I was like,

I'm in.

Typical team.

Yeah, typical team.

I go, I'm in.

I'm in.

When are we leaving?

Tomorrow.

Yeah.

No, it was, he's like, you got to be at Blackwater on Tuesday.

I'm like, the shooting school?

He's like, it's not a shooting school anymore.

And, and,

and then goes, and then on Friday, we're leaving for Azerbaijan.

And I'm like,

what's Azerbaijan?

And he's like, it's a country north of Iran.

Don't worry about it.

Meet you in, you know, and so.

I was like, hey, I'm taking off.

You know, I go and I come, we go over to Azerbaijan and we started this project.

And it's actually in the first part of Eric's book.

He talks about this project that we built.

And it was essentially we took over the FID mission because SOF couldn't do it anymore because the op tempo was so huge in Afghanistan and Iraq at the time.

So FID for the audience is basically U.S.

forces training indigenous forces on tactics.

Yeah, that's right.

So we went over there, started, did a week, then in February, March, went over for 60 days.

We redesigned their bases.

Like I geeked out on that stuff.

I love, you know, designing things.

So redesigned their pool.

We did like a mobile shoot house, the ranges.

We brought them boats, motors, and we built a maritime interdiction program from scratch in Azerbaijan.

And it was me, Joe.

We had this kooky old.

old team guy initially, but then we got this wonderful, amazing guy named Hugh Middleton, who was a former Damnik team one guy, brilliant guy.

And it was the three of us.

And we built this program.

And I'll, you know, I remember the summer, like the final FTX was to put these guys in Zodiacs on one of their cutters, board it, right, at dusk and then board it, you know, at night.

And that was it.

And like we accomplished the task.

And, you know, about the day before we were able to go into that FTX, we had finished retrofitting their pool.

And this was like this old 1950s Spetsnots base from the

communist days of Russia when it was a province.

And we do the pool and we're like, all right, we're going to have a hoo-yah day.

And there was a hook and climb.

And we're like, everybody, go get your wetsuits and meet us out here.

We're going to do this.

And like an hour and a half later, we're like, hey, where is everybody?

Let's go.

And we've got this interpreter and whatever.

And they come out.

And I'm like, all right, you guys ready?

Here's the drill.

We do it.

And they were going to just jump in, swim, climb up, jump out, like a relay.

Joe's sitting up on top of the thing.

He's right here.

I right, ready, go.

They jump in the water.

They couldn't swim.

Oh, shit.

So the day before we're supposed to go board underway.

And we'd already sent them out in the Caspian in the middle of the night doing basic, you know, maritime navigation trills.

No one knew how to swim, right?

Because they said they had all been to Turkish buds.

And I was just like, oh my God, they don't know how to swim.

I'm like, I'm like, Hugh, they're going to miss the ladder.

They're going to get forearm fatigue.

They're going to go on a drink.

And they're dead.

We're going to kill people.

We're going to go to jail in Azerbaijan.

And, and, you know, it had been a wild ride.

Azerbaijan's a trippy place, man.

I mean, it was, it's really, really wild.

And I had struggled there for the first couple because of the breakup and that had failed and everything else.

But then I, I kind of snapped in and I got in shape.

And Joe, Joe was a,

I think it was like a blue belt or purple belt at the time.

And he's like, we're going to train.

And so we would leave the thing and go to the national training site.

And he would just beat the piss out of me every Tuesday and Thursday.

And I didn't know what I was doing, but he would just pound on me.

And we had this great relationship.

Lived in the Hyatt.

It was just bizarre.

Like I called it the last outpost because that's where all the deals of the stands are done, right?

Because one week you're in the Hyatt and it's all the Americans.

Then the next week, it's all the Russians.

Then the next week, it's all the Arabs.

And it's just like this cycle of peculiar place.

It's like the cantina in Star Wars, right?

And

so we find out they can't swim.

And so Hugh looks at us like, well, you guys are going to be the safety swimmers.

And we're like, wait, what?

Like, you're going to jump overboard, save the guy, and then we'll get that.

They did it flawlessly.

They did it great.

So I remember Gary Jackson, who was the CEO at the time, was like, hey, great job.

You guys will always have a job at Blackwater.

You're good.

And then like two weeks later, I got a call.

And I was full time.

Like, it was awesome.

I was making six figures full time.

We were getting ready to do another one, like a FID out in PACOM.

And like this, like this was it.

And we were going to be the FID guys and write curriculum and all this.

And I was like, this is awesome.

And I got my life back.

And

I got a call two weeks later from the head of training, Big Jim.

And he's like, hey, man, we just had to fire you.

That contract's out.

But if you want to go to Afghanistan, we got a gig for you.

So that September, I found myself in Afghanistan

and I was working on the Afghan counter-drug commandos.

No shit.

Yeah.

I didn't know any of this stuff.

Yeah.

What, how was that?

Eye-opening, enlightening.

That was the first time I started to really suspect

there was

alternative motives going on in Afghanistan.

On our part?

Yeah.

What kind?

We were training

most

the most

incapable group of people to try and be commandos to take down the drug dealers.

Mind you, at this time, Afghanistan's GDP, about 90% of it came from the sale of raw opium.

And they had three major points that they would distribute over the Uzbek border in the north through Herat and Iran and then down through Quetta into Pakistan, right?

Mind you, Karzai's brother was the third biggest drug dealer in Afghanistan.

And I found all this out from the DEA.

We were working the DEA fast teams.

These guys were the old cocaine cowboy days down in Columbia back in the 80s and stuff.

And they were awesome.

I love those guys, man.

It was so fun.

But we would train these guys, me and Joe and a couple other dudes.

And it was horrible.

And then, so I got the opportunity to go on a couple ops with them and,

you know, still struggling in my own place.

And like, I'm trying to still find that redemption.

And

I remember we hit one target up

north and it was just empty.

There was no one there, but kids, right?

Afghan compound, full of kids, women, and a couple of dudes.

We spread them up.

And I remember like, there's no one here.

There's no opium here.

There's no nut.

This is bizarre.

But I do remember that the kids, it was the first time that the destitution, the morale,

the

abysmal nature of a future possibility for those kids hit me.

And

that was the

birth of frog logic in that moment was

like, oh my God.

Maybe there's something that I can effectuate greater change in life with than through the barrel of a gun

in my own pursuit of redemption.

Maybe I can redeem myself by helping kids.

And then I did another one, which was another fiasco.

And I began to realize that

we're not doing anything with drugs.

We're not, this is just a sham.

It's just spending of money to do all, to portray that, you know, the American

military or contractors, whatever, trying to, we're, we're making an impact on the drug distribution.

And

I remember we did this

trip, our countryly

TL needed me and Joe to provide security.

We got in this Hilo, went all the way up to Mazar Shari and got dropped off and he went off with these other kind of guys and came back.

We flew back.

And I remember it was like, hey, man, what was that all about?

And he said, well, we just met with the warlord who's like, or the drug dealer up here.

And I was like, well,

did you, where is he?

Why aren't we interrogating him?

why didn't we bring back he's like well there's they got a deal going or something like he feeds us terrorists or whatever and you're like wait what and then i found out this guy was pushing

1600 pounds of opium across the uzbeck bridge every week or something every week it was insane it was insane it was nuts like how much opium was leaving the country then so i went over to the dea guys i'm like well what's what's this look like street value

And it was Afghanistan was still supplying

the world with opium for heroin.

They were still the number one distributor.

And meanwhile, you're like, Taliban isn't selling and all this.

And I was like, wait, this is all a lie.

And that's when it really kind of hit me.

And what was other bizarre, others, I picked up a last-minute job going out.

They had said, hey, man, you did really good redesigning the bases and stuff and the training facilities in Azerbaijan.

Do you want to do that?

The side contract for the Afghan border police, where you design the training, the base, the whole thing, and then you lead this building project.

And I thought I'd get paid more and I didn't.

And so here I am doing three jobs, getting paid for one as a contractor, not full-time.

And I just, again, kind of got to that point where I was like, what am I doing with my life right now?

This is, this is not where I want to be.

And out of that,

this concept to work with kids emerged.

And because at that point, that trip was the first time I really started reading the Bible.

And I remember I read the New Testament through that trip.

And

that's when you really just, if, if the word, you let the word hit you,

it can change you.

And it did.

And that's the inspiration for wanting to, you know, essentially put the gun down and start working with kids.

And so initially I was going to

try and go work with Doctors Without Borders or a US or, you know, a Red Cross or some organization that can go into these war-torn areas and I can help kids or and then kind of work with kids on the side or just do something to help kids that have nothing.

And if you've been there, you've seen these kids have nothing.

Essentially, by the time they're 13,

the girls are essentially just receptacles for procreation.

Little boys are raped.

I mean, it's just a brutal, brutal culture.

And

not all of them, but

a heavy degree of them.

And

that was the thing.

I was like, all right.

But then you start to realize NGOs, they can't stand working with soft guys, right?

Because you're like, are you effing idiot?

Are you of an idiot?

You can't go out there and do that.

That's dumb.

And they're like, what do you mean?

We're helping people.

And you're like, no.

And in fact, a team guy, Nick Check, died in an operation at,

I think it was Red Squadron that did it, where they went to go save a doctor.

And he was a point man.

And when they were going to hit the target, a guy came out, saw him, shot Nick going through the door.

And Ed Byers went in and kind of saved the doc and protected him and received the Medal of Honor for that.

So

I was like, all all right, I don't want to do that.

That's not going to work.

So I came home that Christmas and was really kind of like, all right, how do I do this?

And

I'd read a couple of different things.

Three big things jumped at me.

Teenage obesity was out of control.

And I'd found an article about a West Texas county that, you know, 13 year olds were some exorbitant high percentage of those kids were morbidly obese.

I found an article about girls' teenage suicide was on the rise for the first time in 20 plus years or whatever.

And then the other one I found from a couple psychologists who were studying the effects on young children from hyperconnectivity.

And they had coined this idea called internet withdrawal syndrome.

And it was essentially the de-socialization of children who were hyperconnected and just lived on their screens.

And these guys were kind of trendsetting in terms of the study.

And as we now know, the effects on it are pulverizing, in particular post-COVID.

I was like, well, I don't need to go overseas.

I can just help kids in America.

And let me try that.

So I came up with the idea, the name Frog Logic.

And it's, you know, me paying tribute to the frogmen of the Navy.

And what I thought I would do is I would fixate first on self-confidence because that was the thing.

the main thing that I had to rehabilitate coming out of school.

And that's what I thought that Buds and the training had done.

It was it rehabilitates your self-confidence through these really unique evolutions and the ideas.

And

so I wrote this teeny little kids book called Forging Self-Confidence.

And

I started my first like frog logic motivational training program at the local YMCA.

And there was eight missions because I had looked at everything I could pull out of or extrapolate that I had had learned in buds.

And it was this, like these 26 things.

And I condensed those down to eight core ideas or missions.

And I figured out how to, dude, meanwhile, you know, I'm just back from Afghanistan and I'm telling my dad, hey, I'm going to start a kid's training company.

He's like, you know, I'm telling my friends, hey, I'm going to do this.

And people are looking at me like.

What are you talking about right now?

And I'm like, no, I'm doing it.

And the first guy that really believed in me was Jan Lennon.

And Jan, I had gone to high school with, and he was an attorney, and he moved back to Florida.

And we ran each other at a bar.

And I'm like, how you doing?

And he's like, good.

And so I said, hey, man, why don't you go interview with my dad and all this?

But he was, he's like this guitar savant.

And I said, hey, man, would you come over?

I've got this idea.

I wrote these songs that go with the missions and we can do it.

And that'll get the kids moving and all this.

And he's like, and he's like, that sounds cool.

And so he comes over and I read the lyrics and he just plays the song.

And it was like, oh my God.

And next thing I know, I'm at his daughter's second grade class.

I'm wearing my jungle boots, my tiger stripes, and my, you know, I had frog logic polo.

And

I'm, kids are doing push-ups and he's in his suit and tie playing the guitar.

And

it was awesome.

And it was awesome because it wasn't that.

And it it was like, okay, this could work.

This could make me feel better.

This could give me some redemption.

I did one more gig in CONUS, training regular Naval personnel, how to board ships.

And at that point, I was done.

Like right after that, I had it fallen out.

Someone had accused me of something.

And I was just like, this is ridiculous.

I'm not doing this.

And left and went full on with frog logic and working with kids.

And that summer worked with a foster care home for boys.

I started talking to a couple schools.

And then in the fall, a guy named Kieran Kennedy in Canada from Ottawa, because I had started putting some stuff on the internet.

And he found me and was like, hey, I want you to come up.

and work with my school.

And if you come up, I'll introduce you to all these other schools and you can do your thing.

And so from 2006, seven and into eight, I spoke to thousands of kids in North America and introduced Frog Logic to everybody.

You are a teacher and a mentor.

I mean, we kind of skipped over this because I thought we were going to chat about it after the Afghan deployment.

But

I remember...

being an SQT.

You had a hell of a reputation.

It was not bad.

But

you were a cool motherfucker in all of our eyes.

And the FTXs that you put together with the Moulage kits and all the medical stuff that we did, trying to put IVs in somebody going down the beach in the back of a pickup truck.

I mean, it was challenging.

And I learned a lot.

And I still remember it to this day.

And I also remember

you probably don't remember this.

I was at my friend's house, Kyle Paulson, who lived down in IB.

Kyle died.

But

he was renting a house with a couple people, and you showed up for one reason or another.

I don't even think you knew us.

I don't know if it was an accident, but you pulled up on your Harley,

drunk as a skunk.

Maybe on some other stuff.

I don't know.

But

I was, I think he had just ridden up from TJ

and I was like, fuck, man.

That dude is fucking cool.

I was like, he's a badass instructor.

He's got a great energy.

Overly confident, do not want to fuck with that dude.

And

yeah, it just stuck with me.

It stuck with me forever.

But I mean, I appreciate it.

And even afterwards, man,

after

I had gotten out of the agency and we'll get to this stuff, but I mean, you really helped me.

You mentored me.

I remember going up to your office in that building in Boca when I moved there and mapping my business out and all the different ideas.

And it was,

like I said, Ben, you were the only person that gave me the time of day back then.

Nobody else had time for me.

You're, there's just something in your eyes, man, all the way back in those days.

I remember going to that, that part.

I remember coming back from TJ with Pat.

We'd gone down there.

That's who it was.

Pat Bablet.

That's right.

Another crazy motherfucker.

He made me look.

Is he still alive?

I think Pat's it.

I think.

I'm not sure.

The last I heard, he had owned a bar in Cambodia where you could pay $100 and shoot a water buffalo with an RPG.

But Pat and I, we'd drive down into TJ, man.

We'd go down and into Ensnitas.

What were you guys doing down there?

How bad did it get uh be honest

remember i was in a rough place oh i know yeah so now i know i didn't nobody knew that at the time nobody thought you were

because i i you you

you learn how to put the facade on right so people don't see how much pain you're in and and and the way you do that in the teams you just you know you put a little a little bit of sprinkle a little crazy on yourself and that can people have a tendency like i'm not going to ask him what's going on you know and you know and meanwhile i'm hanging out with i mean absolute madmen like i mean scotty wertz i mean me scotty johnny sotello i mean we would i mean pat bablick i mean

it was like full tilt every time i'd go out with dudes so you know i it was it was hard there was a lot of a lot of of

trying to numb myself from what was going on.

But, you know, I remember that party coming back and I remember you just were, the thing for me was I always had the most respect for the youngest guys

because of Nick Hawks and Pete Scobel.

They were

like, I mean, Nikki was.

18 in buds and I'll never forget a story.

We were 208 and

Mike McGrath was our OIC and he came out.

Remember, you used to like, after the end of the day, you'd get in the pit and like, all right, who has any questions, you know, gripes or concerns?

Get it out.

And someone, you know, you get the junior officers like, we got to be more squared away.

And we got to, you know, and it's like the hoo-yah.

And I remember one day, Nikki raises his hand.

He kind of saunters out in the middle and he goes,

any of you fucking pricks don't feel like putting out, then just quit now, would you?

And this little kid, like he's buck 35, soaking wet.

And in that moment, I was like, holy cow,

just the strength at that age.

I mean, at 18, I was a blithering idiot.

And to see young guys, and it's what?

It's like 96, 97% dropout rate for guys under 19 or something like that.

It's, it's abysmal.

And you were one of those young guys.

I mean, dude, I remember the first time I saw you, I was like, this guy's like 15 years old.

What is he doing here?

I mean, literally.

That's how I felt.

But you were just, you were feisty and tenace.

You had that look like those other guys, and you weren't going to quit.

And, and you absorbed things quickly.

And so I respected that.

And,

but, you know, you're where I was, it's like, I don't,

you just, you just drive on.

And so, you know, I think

I'm trying to remember when we reconnected.

You We reconnected.

We reconnected.

Well, actually,

we reconnected briefly, very briefly.

One reason or another, I was in, I went to Boca.

Yeah.

I don't remember what the hell I was doing there, but

very briefly at your house.

Yeah.

And then the real reconnect happened when we got, when we really started to get close is after that safe house got hit that I was at.

Oh, my God.

We were contracting for the agency and you stepped off the helicopter, but we'll get there.

Okay.

We'll get there.

So frog logic, you start that.

You write books, speaking, mentoring, all kinds of stuff.

I had a security company called Trident Security Solutions.

I was trying to design curriculum, three-dimensional curriculum with new technology because I thought I always hated PowerPoints because

you just recycle them, right?

And then team guys, they'll just put a funny picture in and that's their addition to the curriculum, right?

Or a funny video because videos were coming out.

And I was like, this is ridiculous.

So much.

And I had this guy,

another buddy from St.

Andrews who was doing incredible stuff with three-dimensional design.

His name was Dave Garum.

And we, I approached him.

I said, hey, dude, I've got this idea to take all the IGs from the military.

We'll start in the SEAL teams and we'll turn them into three-dimensional.

So imagine your SIGSAUer dissecting.

You can see the function of it, how it disciplines your M4,

your night vision, all your equipment.

And then the other thing is on this system, you press one button and translate it into other languages, you know, and it's all on your disc.

Instead of, remember, you'd travel with the cruise box and every IG, you'd go everywhere with this huge box, a cruise box.

So now it's like everything fits in the CD folder.

And

we called it Trident Virtual Solutions TVS.

And I remember we went out to Buds and pitched at Buds and all this.

And I had no idea about

the game or anything.

And so that kind of failed miserably.

But it was the kids' stuff that really,

really made me feel better.

And then at that time,

I met my ex-wife.

And we'd known each other for a long time.

And she kind of grew up

and together.

And she's younger.

And

I had kind of like, all right, I need to change my life, settle down, and this is it.

And so it seemed like we met and the opportune time is right after my last Blackwater thing.

And so it's like, all right, my life's,

holy cow, I got some control.

I was getting in shape.

I was, you know, I felt good about myself.

And everything was going pretty well.

And then

the economy collapsed and schools can't don't have any money and I couldn't you know pay my rent and

and I was like oh no what are we gonna do

and I think it was in spring of of 08

a friend of mine reached out and was like hey dude I've got a a gig that I think you'll like.

It's working with the agency and you'll be training case officers are you interested and i was like absolutely you know

yes out of necessity uh financially for sure but also to be able to go back and teach and then to be able to to work with the agency was

i was like this is going to be the coolest thing in the whole world like finally you know that these guys are because by then you you knew that i understood the the power that they had to conduct operations and

the control of information flow and the role that they had played and were playing at a high level.

And so just jumped at that opportunity.

And so April of

08 was my first course.

And we ran this course on the Blackwater campus.

It was not through Blackwater.

They were called the U.S.

Training Center.

They had sold.

Eric had had to sell from all the fiasco that he had gone through.

And

I remember showing up and I was like, all right, this is going to be awesome.

And the whole idea is that case officers were co-located on FOBS, regular case officers, not PMC, paramilitary case officers, but they were on FOBS now.

And the kinetic nature in the Optempa was so insane that they were integrated with JSOC units and other...

you know, regular, you know, tier three, tier two soft units.

And they were like, information was being converted into actionable intelligence in real time.

And so these guys, like, you know,

you know the deal.

They're in the fob.

They do a meet.

They get intel that, you know, somebody, the buddy's, you know, brother's, sisters, cousins, aunt, uncle is in the town for the next four hours.

He's a bomb maker.

You give him the bag of cash.

Well, you know,

it becomes like the country chief can make it actionable or even the base chief in some cases.

And so these guys were then the task unit guy, the dev group guy, the delta guy would be like, all right, you're getting in the bird with us and you're going to PID this guy because we don't know the case.

We haven't worked and we're not doing it.

And they would pull these young kids

who had one week of...

pistol, one week of long rifle in the farm, and they'd be operational with these guys.

And so

my assumption was my job was to was to turn them into operators.

And I'll never forget, I show up first course and Dave was the course lead.

He was an SF guy.

I loved him from Baltimore.

Just total snapheart had funny as hell, great dude.

And then the guy from the agency, man, he looked like George Foreman.

He was awesome, man, but he was just the coolest dude.

And I was like, I'm working for the CIA.

And I was like, all all right.

And so first two days were medical and I taught that.

And then we go into shooting and it's pistol on the course.

I've got this female case officer and

she points the gun and she shoots.

And then we're at like two meters, three meters, whatever it was, you know.

And

single shot, single dot, and she misses the target.

I was like, okay, let's do it again.

She misses again.

And I was like, give me the run.

And I, you know, keyhole five-round rhythm drill.

And I was like, it's not the gun.

And she goes back and she misses again.

I'm like, what in the fuck is going on?

What is this Jason born bullshit?

You know, and I'm, I'm screaming at this poor like team guy asshole.

And she starts tearing up, you know, and I'm like,

there's no goddamn crying in combat, you know, and I'm just a complete asshole to this poor girl.

And,

and Dave's like, hey, hey,

hey, man, why don't you go get some ammo?

And I was like, I'll be right back, you know, and I'm walking away and this dude who's, I didn't met him yet.

He just showed up and he's like, hey, man, come here.

Come over.

And I was like, what's up?

And he's like,

hey, you're team guy, huh?

And I was like, yeah.

And he's like,

you're an instructor too, right?

And I was like, yeah.

And he's like, okay.

He goes,

man, if you keep that up, like they're, they're going to ask you to leave at lunch.

And I'm like, like, what do you mean?

He's like, yeah, they don't play.

They're not operators.

They're not here to become operators.

He goes, I've seen it.

I've seen team guys land overseas in Iraq, go into a brief, start, you know, spouting off and then

get right back on the bridge and go home like in the same night.

And I was like, holy cow.

And that was Tanto.

No shit.

Yeah.

And that's where I met Chris and it was the best advice I ever got.

And so that changed changed it.

And what was amazing for me is I was with a really amazing group of guys.

There was Brian, some other dudes, and

John, who ended up being in Benghazi.

And

Tanto was there.

And

I learned.

All right, what can I learn from them?

And so for two years, I got this incredible education because we'd have, you know, 15 to 20 some case officers come through.

And some people would have 27 years, you know,

done all kinds of insane, amazing things.

And

I would identify somebody I really admired.

And

I would say, hey, can I have breakfast with you?

Can I have lunch with you?

Can I have dinner?

Do you want to get a beer afterwards?

And I would just ask them, what do you do?

And how does it work?

And they taught me more about

people than anybody had ever taught me because that's what they do for a living.

They're the world's best interviewers.

And they're brilliant, you know, and they don't need to be Jason Bourne.

All they have to do is be intellectual and sophisticated and understand the dynamics within the human condition, which cultivate different motivations.

And if you can learn someone's motivations, you can extrapolate information.

And that, I got this overwhelming education.

And it really transformed me.

And it became something.

And I met this one incredible guy, Todd,

and

we just became immediately close friends and former EOD guy and had been on

mobile and was home because he had some infection in his ear from Afghanistan and lost his balance.

And so he was teaching now.

And he was amazing.

We became friends.

And I loved it.

And I loved it.

But my problem was is like I just really gotten engaged and was serious and had planned starting to plan a wedding and I'm gone 15 days on, 15 days off, 15 days on from April till November, December.

And that's really how my relationship started.

Right.

And so I finished that

That first year, she had said, hey, I don't want you to do this anymore.

And I was like, okay so i went to work for another friend actually jan lennon it was a mortgage marketing company out of the boston area and so now i'm i'm you know one minute i'm teaching case officers you know how to better integrate with jsock units and learning and in the midst of it you know because it was 08 it was the height of everything going on

and now i'm like showing up at banks and trying to promote this marketing business and i was god bless him i mean he was wonderful to me.

Jeff's an amazing human being.

And he believed in me.

And I was like, I'm going to support you, get you out of this.

And, and I couldn't do it.

Like, got married in November.

And then by March, I was like, I'm done.

I'm going back.

And so immediately started 09

all through 09.

And then in the beginning of the fall is when Todd was like, hey, man, do you want to deploy?

Do you want to do this?

Do you want to go mobile?

And I was like, Yeah, I do.

I really do.

I hadn't been deployed like that since 05.

I felt like a hypocrite.

I felt like I was saying things that I didn't really know.

I didn't know the operations of it.

I was just, you know, I felt,

I almost felt like I was a fraud.

You know, really?

Yeah.

It was, it was, again, that insecurity came out.

Remember, I was still seeking the retribution.

I was still seeking the

salvation of the experience.

And

I wanted to redeem myself.

And I felt the only way I could redeem myself, I went downrange again and got involved in that.

And I remember I was, he's like, all right, the head recruiter is going to be at.

the long distance range and we're out there and we're doing just some sighting and stuff or whatever.

And this truck pulls up and all of a sudden I hear this voice.

I'm like, I know that voice.

And I turn around and it's a friend of mine that I had been in the teams with, I'd gone to the Paramac Refresher.

And it's him.

And he looks at me, he goes, what's up, Rut?

He goes, so you want to go overseas, huh?

And I was like, yep.

And he's like, done.

I'll get you in the training course.

And

that's it.

And so that, like the next month, I went through.

the three-week training course.

And

like you said, I remember my one of my my favorite part

there are a couple of my favorite parts when you did the interview with tucker carlson but you talked about it and i thought you did it a tremendous service i thought it was tough it was hard the shooting was hard shooting packets was hard the you know the surveillance stuff the comm stuff and i really enjoyed it and met some great had a couple you know buddies team guys yost was with me and and uh there was i remember there's a ranger chris the rock

And man, he was hard, just tough.

And it was like, I still talk to Chris.

Do you really?

Yeah, he's doing good.

Yeah, I've, every now and then I'd, I'd send him an email or something like that.

But I, he would just call me out because

after Tanto had told me, like, hey, like, my whole mentality was like, I'm going to be Mr.

Positive all the time.

Right.

And I'm going to be that guy.

That drove him nuts, man.

He would be like, you're so full of shit.

He's like, shut up.

I remember it was, it was freezing cold in eastern Maryland at whatever that dude who did the CQD shit was.

I forget what his name was.

And

freezing outside.

I'm like, this is awesome, man.

And he's like, shut up.

And he would just call me out.

But he was like, he's the one who set the tempo and and so went through it passed that and then got a date a deployment date for january 2010

and but that last class i did and this was the trippy thing that last class i did

um

we had a woman come through

that um

was a big deal She had been on the original bin Laden desk

and she they were grooming her for seventh floor but she wanted to do a combat deployment she wanted to go find Zarhawi and

and I remember she came through and I remember them telling me hey you know there's a lot of eyes on this I want you know they're like Rut you're a good you're one of the best instructors really get behind her and explain not only what it is

that she needs to be aware of with the units she's going to have at her disposal and around her, but also really emphasize how positive

the group, you know, GRS is going to be and how much they can assist her and what they can do.

And I remember, you know, when we graduated, we went to dinner, me, her, and another junior CO.

And

I remember just talking to her and

was really

emphatic about the dynamics of being downrange and the complexities of it.

And just was

not forceful, not rude, not anything, but tried to be as adamant as I could about the importance of working together and really what that meant.

And

because I really didn't know the dynamic, I'd never been downrange operationally with the agency yet.

And I remember graduated class, good luck, you know, God bless.

And

was on holiday in Colorado.

We were coming home from that trip.

And I found out that that's when that double agent blew himself up.

It was Schin, right?

Coast.

Excuse me, Coast.

And

eight

GRS and case officers were killed.

And she was, she was a part of that.

And, you know, they had, you know, struggled with the dynamics of the security profile for that because he was telling her, like, I have met Wazar Howie.

I know where he is.

I've got the info.

And, and so they kind of altered some protocols and he detonated himself.

And I remember we lost some good guys.

Jeremy Weiss was fresh out of the teams and on GRS.

Southside was one of the most respected.

guys in the whole program and and he died and and and then some some of the case officers as well too and

and that was like okay welcome to go because like the next week I was on the bird over and landed in Afghanistan in January of 2010 right after that and so when was your first trip uh January 2010 where

Lash that's when we that's when we met that was my first trip like I got off the plane went over middle of the night walked in and and this was my favorite part of well you were my favorite part of that whole thing, but that's the next story.

I walk in and there's Evan Hafer.

And he was a greeter and

he was just like, you know, Evan, he's just kind of like, he's always just kind of like chill, right?

And I was just like, all right.

And he's, you hungry?

I was like, yeah, yeah.

So we sat down and started eating.

Everybody else kind of took off and we just started talking.

And one of the questions that I always ask people dating all the way back to Blackwater was, what's your plan?

Like, how are you going to get out of this?

How are you going to figure out how to put the gun down and move on with your life?

And I was sincere.

I was interested.

And, you know, at that moment, the number one response was, I'm going to do about four years contract and save up enough and then I'm going to open a bar.

You know, that was, that was the answer.

And I was like, that's such a bad answer.

And I remember Evan was the first guy that had a whole idea all planned out, how he was going to do it and what he was going to do.

And I was fascinated.

We talked for like six straight hours.

Was it Black Rifle Coffee?

No, no, it was he had, so one of his original ideas was to start a crowdsource funding for veterans startup companies.

It was brilliant.

And

he had some other tech ideas and gear stuff.

And his mind is just fascinating once he starts talking about it.

And yeah, Black Rifle didn't emerge until a few years later.

And,

but we became really fast friends.

And he was the one, this is what you got to think about.

This is what you got to do.

And

then that was a couple of days later, I was on that Hilo and

landed in Lash.

Let's hear your side.

So again.

Did they tell you what you were walking into?

They didn't fucking tell you?

I mean, remember the country T.O.

who I liked a lot.

Race.

Yes.

Loved him.

I thought he was brilliant.

I thought he was great.

And he was kind of like, well, you're going to a site that's kind of been going through some stuff.

They had to leave a safe house, but didn't get the story at all.

And there's a new, you're moving into a new base that's being built.

And

I was like, yeah, awesome, man.

Cool.

wherever fired up.

Let's go.

And I remember taking a helo ride down there and we landed and I remember seeing the British footprint and then we landed off to the side, not near it or in it or anything.

I was like, where are we landing out here?

And I came out and just trying to look around and it's still spinning.

And I'm like, what's up?

Where, you know, who's, you know, and I'm, and I'm loud or whatever.

And

they're like, come on, you with us, get over here and get in the vehicle and got my, you know, my kit bag and put it in.

And you were there, but I didn't know it was you,

you know.

And I remember we drove out, it was like into the other place, and the lights came on.

And I was like, Holy cow, I know you.

And you're like, What's up, brutt?

You know, and I was like, and you're like, and you said your name, and I was just like, Holy cow!

I was like, What are you doing here, man?

And you're like,

You were just pissed.

You were so livid.

I was like, dude,

you're my connection, man.

You're the team guy.

I need a team guy.

And you just could not speak.

You were fired up.

And that's what I remember:

the introduction.

I was pretty pissed.

Yeah.

So, yeah, before you got there, just to fill up the audience,

I just switched from Blackwater to SOC for a pay raise.

This is my first deployment with Sock.

Met Afe, met Evan,

connected with him immediately.

Great, great, great rapport.

And

he's like, oh, you're going to this site, Lash, Lash Cargo.

I'm like, okay.

Go down there.

Little bitty safe house.

You could hear the interpreters fucking each other in the middle of the night.

None of the

agency blue badgers or the agency employees had ever been to combat zones, at least to my knowledge, especially the chief of base.

And we were doing all these meets.

And at the time, Lashkar Gah, Hellman Province, was the hottest zone in the country.

And we would go and we would meet these people.

You know, we'd do our little SDR.

For those that don't know, it's kind of like a counter surveillance type route that you would take in.

And, you know, the main thing working with agency doing that kind of a job is don't be time and place predictable.

Well,

Chief of Base was lazy,

had no experience in a war zone.

He's a Cold War guy.

And I come down there

and immediately start picking things apart, which still hadn't figured out.

That's not how the agency works.

They don't like constructive criticism.

But I said it anyways because I knew some shit was going to happen.

And I said, hey,

in a morning brief, said, hey, we've already run this route three or four times.

Same time, same route.

We're time and place predictable.

We need to change things up.

Of course, they blow it off.

I'm like, well.

We're going to get fucking hit.

We're in this little house in this little compound.

About 12 hours later, the gunfire starts.

And

they

I can't, I think it, I can't remember if it was Taliban or Al-Qaeda or who,

but they had taken over a high-rise building in town.

Local Afghan police were trying to take care of it.

They they just started chucking grenades down, shooting RPGs or bullets flying everywhere.

We couldn't get a good vantage point to shoot back.

This went on for

like 10 fucking hours.

It was insane.

And we were pinned down.

We couldn't get out.

So we started burning all the classified material.

I remember the chief of base was hiding in a bathtub.

Going, oh my god, we're going to die.

We're going to die.

And my buddy, you know, do you remember Devo?

Yeah.

Devo yelled and looked in the bathroom like, what the fuck are you doing in there?

Get up and get a fucking gun.

And

that, you know.

So anyways, we're burning all this shit.

The Brits actually had to come extract us out of there because we couldn't fucking get out.

And so they sent in this huge convoy,

big show of force.

to come extract us out.

Then they dump us in this shit old base that we're building with

No nothing.

Yeah, no front gates.

140 local workers inside the wire every day.

Yep.

And

so I'm fucking pissed.

I'm like, how the, I'm like, how the fuck did I want it up here?

I thought this was supposed to be better.

And

yeah, it was demoralized.

It was demoralized because they weren't taking any constructive criticism.

We just got hit.

Could have gotten killed.

It actually came out later that they had pinpointed exactly what house we were in.

They had over 100 fighters on the other side of the river just about a click away, a kilometer away.

And so they started doing drone passes to try to scatter them.

It was nasty.

And

they told us we had reinforcements coming.

So we go out, we wait for the helos to come in.

Did you come in with Race?

Race was already there, I think.

No.

You came in with Race.

Because he had to go.

Yeah, me, Race, and Kay.

And yeah, he comes down.

I think Evan was with us, too.

No, Evan.

Later.

He came a couple weeks later.

He didn't come while I was there.

Okay, you left and then he came out until we got another guy.

That's what it was.

And

the way I remember it, you jump off the helo and you start yelling.

And I was like, what the fuck?

Is that who I think it is?

Rudd, is that you?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Who is that?

And

then I gave you the lowdown.

And you're like, what, what the fuck is going on?

When we're back.

And you, yep, you had that, that

super positive

attitude.

And I'm like, get that shit away from me.

I don't want to fucking hear it.

You're running around trying to set up oak horses in the fucking camp.

And I'm like, I'm not doing that shit.

There's no fucking way.

You got to buy it.

The morale was, it was, it was abysmal.

And the morale was bad through the whole

community because of what had happened, Coast.

And, and I was like, all right, how do we even operate when every

you, that just happened.

I'm at this place.

Coast just, I'm like, This is a shit show, dude.

And I was like, all right, I could just start by just kind of lifting people up man and God that did not work it did

it did not work at all not work at all but funny story about that I don't know if you I don't know if you were there yet or not but

that same chief of base after this happened he wanted to he still continued to act like a hard ass

and there was all the we had a cat problem

lots of fucking stray cats everywhere pissing shit and all over the place he's like hey get rid of these fucking cats

And my buddy Scott goes out and he puts these bricks in a pillowcase.

And he walks up to the chief.

He walks up to the chief of station and he goes, hey, I got the solution to your cat problem.

And he starts flinging this pillowcase around full of bricks.

And he just goes,

slams these fucking this pillowcase full of bricks on the, on the concrete right in front of him.

And his face, his face was just like,

oh my God.

I can't believe you did that.

He goes, it's just fucking bricks.

Yeah.

Dude, it was the funniest.

I think that might have been the only time I laughed that entire fucking deployment, other than when we got shit faced off that bottle of Jack Daniels and whoever brought.

Oh my God.

And I wound up falling on a hole and

sleeping it off in there until

Race comes over he's looking at me he's like it's a rough night last

dude that was a good night though

because everybody needed to blow off wolf's theme you know yeah do you remember the the pmco jeremy and then his guy who looked like were they there with lee lee

who looked like uh

um

the guy who was uh

the cowboy looked like the metal metal gear solid guy the which one the metal gear solid guy.

Yeah, yeah.

Snake or whatever the hell his name is.

Those guys were, they cracked, like every time I'd need a sanity check, I'd go over to them.

Oh, I wasn't doing it for you?

No, dude, no.

I'd be like, holy cow, dude.

Like, he's about ready to bust a gasket, dude.

And nothing, like, and I'd come near you and you'd look at me and I'd be like, all right, I'm going to go,

I'd go the other way, dude.

Yeah.

That was a, that was my indoc.

Like, that was my first trip.

I didn't realize that was your first trip.

That was your first trip.

And, and,

like, leaving that and getting home, I'm like,

whoa.

Me too.

I was like, whoa.

Am I, can I do this again?

And, and

the next, the next.

Coast had just happened.

Just happened.

And I had mentioned that.

I was like, this just happened.

Yeah.

It was everything had gone wrong.

And then I went into the place where it was the worst.

And nobody was,

I think the morale was just at an all-time low at that point.

What did you think of the agency overall, the entire experience?

I think they,

I mean, because I did another, I did a 90-dayer that summer, which was better there.

It was a lot better.

I didn't get much worse than

the last time.

It couldn't have gone any worse, but we got a good TL who was good.

He worked with the guys a lot better we had some guys doing good casework and

it was good it was long i mean it was the summer and and last 90 days oh you went back to last year

yeah i did a 90 day or it was crazy because because my ex was pregnant with our first

and this was the one i was like after that i was like all right this is the one I'm going to get shot or blown up on or like and that was the summer I got saved.

that was the summer i came to christ how did that happen i i had been working hard reading a ton of the bible really trying to understand and and i think i got to the place

where i don't know if i felt like i deserved christ's love but i know i was loved by christ and i wanted to make sure that if i died and my child was born that my child would know that i was a christian and so i i called the little pastor at the church we went to in Del Rey.

And it's like, hey, man, you know, giant beard, the whole thing, and like, I want to get baptized.

And so I went in, got baptized, and then left right after that for 90 days.

And

that was awesome because on that trip, I really leaned into reading the Bible and really tried to understand it.

And,

you know, um it was it was a good it was a better trip than that first one for sure and so i i began to appreciate, I became friends.

There was one guy that had been around a long time who had actually come through training a couple of years before who was there, who I really liked, Robert.

And he was wonderful to me and really was

insightful and was.

understanding and was good.

And so I think at that point, I was,

the job was,

it was good, but it wasn't what I thought it was going to be.

I thought it would be doing a lot more, you know, sneak and peek stuff and all kinds of stuff.

But I remember that summer also, too, was when the Marja push began.

And I remember we had a PMCO that had come out.

He was a former, I think, colonel in the Marine Corps, and his son was out there in a Marine Corps unit.

And they were doing overt daylight patrols.

And a guy, a kid that was in front of his son had tripped an IED because they were just planting them every night.

They'd walk through and blow these poor kids up.

And

I remember

him

and the pain.

in him and how frustrated he was with what the regular military was doing, what the mission was.

And also that summer is where I began to understand

the problems of

that there was no genuine mission.

It was just

presence.

And it was coming up with things to figure out how to do, just collection and whatever.

And, you know, I think

the JSOC guys were still doing great work.

And some of the

GB guys were doing great work.

And, you know, but

I was so new, it was difficult.

It wasn't until the next appointment.

So I got home.

Um,

uh,

first child was born.

And then about 30 days later, is when I went, started my second rotation, I went to Pakistan.

And that's where things got interesting.

How so?

It was just a different thing.

It was.

It was more of the sneak and peek stuff.

It was low profile.

It was, it was sketchy, you know, where we were.

And, and

it was real work.

Like it felt like it was real work because, you know, we were, you know, in Western Pakistan Pesh.

And,

and, you know, there was a lot of stuff.

That's where everybody kind of works things out and what, you know, all the stuff that's going on.

And I met some really talented guys,

really talented guys.

That's when I met Max and I met some other guys.

And I'll never forget, you know, I'm still trying to portray, you know, Captain positivity and I'll never forget we're in the chat hall in the middle of the night and I couldn't sleep and I go in there Max is in the corner with a cup of coffee and I'm like what's up man how you doing and he goes so I'm like he's like shut the fuck up and I'm like what what's up and he's like I know you're not like this

I know you're not that motivated.

I know you're not that happy.

So shut up.

And I, and, and immediately became good friends.

And

that was where that was interesting.

That was really, I don't know if you remember, remember the guy, the Green Beret who was in Karachi, who they tried to rob him.

And the guy on the motorbike turns around, points the gun at him, and he pulls out his pistol.

He's Ray Davis.

That's right.

You got his book right over here.

That's right.

And that created an international incident.

And what I didn't know at the time, you know, that was the beginning of the lead up for the bin Laden raid had begun.

And

that made operations really difficult because they were, that just all hell came loose down on the thing.

And, and so we, our profile really ramped up.

And it was, I remember, you know, hey, we really got a lot more intel.

We got to be aware.

We got to pay attention.

And then I was there for like 60 some odd days, I think it was.

Left, came home.

We moved with a newborn up to up to um, North Carolina.

North Carolina, Dasheville, remember?

Because you had just moved to Boca.

And you're like, dude,

where are you going?

And I was like, I got to get out of this town, man.

I can't be here.

And, and had moved up there in the hopes we'd find some mountain house and, you know, build a little range and just kind of have some peace.

And,

and then, um,

I remember the bin Laden raid happened.

And then right after that, because I, when I was up there, I had developed some videos and started,

because I was like, man, I can't keep, I don't know if I can keep doing this.

Like, this isn't going to be healthy.

It's definitely not healthy for my relationship.

It's definitely not healthy for me because I was still chasing something that really wasn't going to happen, right?

You're not going to get into that.

I mean, how many.

How many GRS guys do you ever know that got into the huge firefight and the, you know, and the whole thing?

And not a lot.

And so, you know, it's all pretty low pro.

And if you're good at what you do, it's nobody knows you're there and you do it subtly.

And that was the thing.

And

so I started like going, all right.

And I remember right after the bin Laden raid, a person had called, contacted me through my website and was like, hey.

Do you want to do a speaking engagement for this Fortune 100 company?

And I was like, absolutely.

Yeah.

I'll in.

And she's like, okay, it's about an hour talk.

How much do you charge?

And I was so dumb.

I was like, okay a lot is the daily rate right and it was like 750 at the time or whatever i was like okay i'm going big like this is a big company i'm going big i was like two thousand dollars and

i i will you hire me and i'll do whatever you want for 24 straight hours like i'll do breakouts i'll do training i'll do team building whatever you want And the lady stops.

It was so funny.

Her name was Darcy Boseos.

And she had been the agent.

She'd been Oprah Winfrey's agent at one time.

And she worked a lot of the Bulls, the Chicago Bulls back in the 90s,

worked with her.

And now she had, she plays speakers with, and she stops and she goes, hey, listen, can I be frank with you?

And I was like, yeah.

And she goes, that's the dumbest number I've ever heard.

And I was like, what do you mean?

She goes, just because you're a Navy SEAL, you should charge $5,000.

And if you can actually speak and you're articulate, you could charge $10,000.

She goes, here's what I'm going to do.

I'm going to tell them

6,000.

I'm going to take 1,000 and give you five.

How's that?

And I was like,

$5,000 for one speech?

And I was like, oh my God.

And I did that.

And then a week later, I redeployed back to Pakistan.

And this time it was sketchy.

It was just

We were, we felt like we were always on the defensive.

It got so sketchy and pesh.

you know and there was one point uh one thing that really kind of has stuck with me and what was really

a pivotal moment for my

beginning to lose faith in some of the institutions that i had held on a pedestal and that was um

after the raid obviously the doctor who had

gone and

led us, you know, found out it was him, he got wrapped up and they were holding him in a jail in Pesh.

And

I don't know where it came from or what it started, but it kind of emerged that, all right, we're going to go,

you know, storm this jail,

break him out, take him with us and get him out of Dodge and get him out of country.

And it got shut down.

And I don't know if that guy's still in jail.

I don't know what's happened to him.

I don't know.

But that was

that was,

that was painful.

And that, that's when you start to realize, oh, there's a different way of doing things.

And the rest of that point, we ended up having to leave Pesh,

get out.

I mean, I remember we were coming.

They had asked me to develop a whole emergency plan.

Like, what do you do if we, because we were getting, like, we had one group of guys get shut down

at night, checkpoint, video,

TV show, TV cameras.

They're sitting in their kit.

So then there was like stories.

I remember one story in the new paper, the Blackwater assassins are in pesch.

And the only way you can kill them was with silver bullets.

And we had that up and like bizarre stuff, but it got heavy.

It got sketchy.

And we had incredible guys out there.

And so we ended up pulling out and reducing back to the consulate.

And we took off and went to Islamabad and spent the rest of the summer in Islamabad operating.

And that was a whole different thing too.

Now it's like you're in a city doing it.

And it was a whole different game.

And again, there were some amazing, amazing guys.

There was this

Green Beret medic who was just out there.

But like he was.

dialed in.

Like he had it down, Pat.

He knew how to drive low pro.

He knew how to mingle in

the city low pro.

He was an animal in the gym.

And like, he, I was just like, and he was a brilliant medic.

And I was like, all right.

And then I also met Randy Rhodes and the combat chassis.

And I just fell in love with that guy.

And, you know, he was hilarious.

And his look and take on the whole thing.

And he kept me smiling.

And then Max.

And then I ended that,

finished that, and then came home.

And then went back one more time in the fall and and that was the end of it for me what year did you stop contracting november i was september october november of 2011 because i missed i missed i missed blair's first birthday and that was devastating and i came home and and my ex was just like if if you keep going we're done and i didn't want to lose my family and i didn't want to lose anything else so i hung it up

you know and that was

that was probably the, one of the hardest things I ever did, but

because I never got redemption,

but I was okay in my faith that like, okay, I'm, I'm going to go all in on this other thing, this, this trying to help people with frog logic and training and motivational coaching and stuff.

And,

you know, I'll never forget, like, I was home and I was praying hard on it.

Like, God, you know, give me something.

What do I do?

How do I, how do I move on?

And out of nowhere, a guy who I had gone through training with back in the day, Kyle Kroeberger, had reached out, had seen my stuff online and was like,

hey, man,

do you still speak to companies?

And I was like, yeah, I do, as a matter of fact.

And he's like, do you suck?

And I was like, I don't think so.

I think I'm okay.

And he was working for a mutual fund company called Pioneer Investments.

And he's like, if you're any good, we use speakers all the time.

If you're any good, I'll use you.

Then my buddy will use you.

And that one.

And I think I did something like 30 events that year.

And that launched my speaking career where I didn't have to contract anymore.

Wow.

Yeah.

And that was the transition for my new life.

We got a lot of friends that are still contracting.

Yeah.

Some have been contracting over 20 years now.

Yeah.

And, you know, you get sucked into that money.

It's about,

what, maybe $250,000 on the low end?

Maybe, maybe $350,000 on the high end.

You're killing yourself.

Yeah.

What advice do you have?

For guys that are caught in that hamster wheel that went out,

that feel trapped.

Maybe they weren't smart with their money.

They want out.

They want to rebuild their family.

Humble yourself first.

And just give up the sensation you're chasing.

You've done it enough.

And just restart.

The problem is the identity shift.

You know, there's, you know, there's institutionalization, right, is the term that people use.

You do one thing for so long, that's all you are.

That's all you can ever become.

You see it with inmates become institutionalized.

You see it military personnel, professional athletes suffer from it tremendously.

You know, you're a professional athlete.

You start.

at four years old playing organized sports, 12, 13, you separate, you're put in a bubble, you're groomed, you know, then you go D1, then you go pro.

And next thing you know, you're 24 or five years old.

You've been going for 20 straight years.

Your entire identity is encapsulated and your performance on a field, on a court, on wherever.

And it's over and you don't know what to do.

The same thing carrying a gun for a living, like that's it.

And it's a pretty substantial indoctrination, right?

I mean, you, you've experienced it, you've seen it, you, you contracted for an extended period of time,

and

you

get to that point and

it's all you know, it's all you think you can know,

but

there's a way out.

And you start with humbling yourself and you start from scratch.

I mean, I remember when I first started speaking, I was horrible.

I was horrible and just raps and reps.

And then I started to devise, when I was in Pakistan, I wrote my first adult book.

And I took the core concept of that confidence, that self-confidence book, and I turned it into an adult book.

And I didn't know what I was doing.

It was so funny.

I'd reach out to my...

cousin who's this you know he's written six novels you know they turned one into a movie one you know i mean he's a brilliant guy he's top guy random and i would call him and i'd be like hey man writing this thing in this book it's like this cheesy self-help and he'd

be like just write what you feel, figure it out, edit it, and then put it out and see what happens and then adjust from there and do it again and do it again.

And I think it's the fear of starting over for people and that loss of identity because we spend so much time, we invest so much pain and suffering into

cultivating the personality that we believe that it's fixed within us.

And that fixed personality is seems, it becomes almost a crutch, if you will.

No, crutch is the wrong word it becomes a

almost like maybe a guiding rod for us right you're holding on so tightly to this thing and even if you don't recognize that you're you're you're

you're entrenched and you're not moving forward but it's still you have this identity that that is

that has generated a value in yourself, a high degree of a value, right?

If you're a Navy SEAL, that's an important important identity.

If you're an athlete, it's an important identity.

If you are a lawyer or if you own a business, those are big identities.

But when all of a sudden they're no longer viable for the development or the growth or your momentum forward, you have to let go of that.

And you have to go wander the desert.

And that's the hard thing for people to do.

But that's how we grow.

That's how we grow in that pain, that humility, that suffering.

And so that's what I recommend.

I mean, I've talked to dozens of guys.

Like for, you know, I was one of the first guys out there doing it.

I mean, I remember I started my first podcast in 2013, right?

Called Navy SEAL Radio.

And I was like one of the first guys out there doing it.

And I was speaking and started working with sports teams.

And guys would get out and they'd call me.

I'm like, hey, Rutt.

I think I want to try this speaking thing.

Like, how do you do it?

And i'd and i'd spend as much time as i could with them trying to just explain what i did and how i did it and it's not perfect i mean it it wasn't great other guys have had a lot more success than i have but

it's really trying to coach them through that that loss of of self that they thought

they needed forever in order to be able to create something new And that's what I suggest to people.

Like there's, it's, we go through changes constantly.

And that's change is the hardest aspect of

life, right?

But we also know, in particular, us, the greatest lessons that we do learn, we learn the hard way.

And so that's the only way.

That's the way that Christ learned and taught us.

And that's the way we have to learn.

But you have to be humbled in that suffering.

I want to bounce around a little bit here.

Sure.

Back when when I found my faith and Sedona

after Dan died,

you and Jonna were there with me.

And at that time, that was not on my radar at all.

You almost

kind of pushed it on me.

And at the time, I was, you know,

pretty fresh out of psychedelics.

I was really into energy and all this other shit.

And

I remember talking about frequencies.

Do you remember this conversation?

I also remember where you almost punched me at lunch.

By the way, we still have to address this other one.

We almost skipped over that portion, but we'll get there.

Okay.

But you had mentioned that

something about

when the sea was parted, they used the

God, all three God frequencies.

Do you remember this?

Can you explain that?

That was the first thing that anybody had ever told me that actually grabbed my attention.

And then, fast forward two or three days, and I had that experience up on the

up on the vortex.

Yeah,

Maggie is the person who introduced me to that in my life.

At that time, she was

pretty connected to Native American culture.

And

if you understand anything about people that are ultra-connected to nature, that's what they're feeling.

That's the sensation, right?

The energy of a new dawn,

of a lightning storm, a tornado, right?

The static that comes with a hurricane or whatever it is.

You feel all that.

And that's energy, right?

Those are those frequencies changing.

And they're changing on a level that's beyond our,

most of the time, beyond our perceptions, right?

Beyond our

senses.

And so I think for me,

the first time I had ever really understood is when she would put her hands on me and heal me.

And I was like, you know, it was amazing.

It was under, like everything about me felt better.

And

I also remember as I got deeper and deeper into my faith, I started to recognize that

when you hear or read the different sermons and you think about that, and the one I think for me

that really stands out is when they were on the sea and the sea becomes tumultuous and

you know, they think they're going to drown and that their ship's going to sink and Peter and everybody's scared.

And what does Christ do?

He walks out on the water and he says, come to me.

And so his whole energy was different, right?

He was calm.

He was not allowing nature to distract him for what his mission was, which was to instill a deeper faith in those men on that boat.

And what did he do?

He asked Peter to come out and to trust him, that faith in him.

And he did.

And he walked out on water and then he went back to that consciousness, that human consciousness.

And I remember

I forget who exactly introduced me to the God frequencies.

And I think when I

was when I was in North Carolina, and

we have some friends that have a beautiful mountain house out there,

really amazing people and been friends with them a long time.

And they have a

labyrinth on their property.

And I remember one of the times when John and I went up there when we were first together and we had someone come in, you know, put us in the labyrinth and kind of read our energy.

And

there's a vibration.

Everything has a vibration, right?

Any living thing, there's energy moving.

It's electricity.

And I remember

being introduced to that.

concept that God has his own particular energy and that's what shapes the universe.

And so if that energy is what comes through the word, right?

And the word is what shaped, right?

God spoke and all was created.

God spoke and we were created.

God spoke, you know, and

I think, you know, the metaphor of Adam and Eve and us,

you know,

wanting to know more or wanting to get away from that frequency or that energy, you know, that's when that

self-consciousness emerged and that shame shame emerged.

And then we left Eden, which was that purity of energy.

And so that was the place.

And in North Carolina is one of those energy vortexes, supposedly.

And then Sedona, there's another one out there too.

And the idea is like there's certain places on the earth that vibrate more intensely than others.

There's, you know, maybe that's the earth emitting its own signal into the universe because the earth is connected to God and connected to the universe.

And so if you can get in that, it can reshape and kind of reestablish the frequency in you.

And I remember, you know,

we were so excited to go out with you guys.

And,

you know, when you showed up, it was.

It was heavy, man.

Things were changing for you rapidly.

And

I just,

like, I was in a really good place because of Johnna.

I mean, it was a little challenging, obviously, because of COVID and what had happened and all that, but I felt strong.

And I remember like, hey, man,

remember once we left the restaurant, we were out on the thing.

It's like, like, listen, you just have to give into it.

You have to be able to feel it and not question it and just open your heart to it.

And it'll hit you and it'll, it'll, it'll seed itself in you.

And I think, you know, that's, that's what happened.

You, you were now in the right time and space for it.

You were ready for it.

And it happened.

Yeah.

Let's move into

that night that you almost killed me with a fucking dog.

I mean, I had had a suicide attempt

maybe a couple months before then.

Called you.

You were my first call.

I mean, what was that like?

The divorce was...

Before we go to the divorce.

What was that like when I called you?

Oh, it was a gift.

It was a real gift.

Because a lot of guys don't call.

That shame of it.

They don't want...

to talk about it.

They don't want to expose that they're in that space, right?

It's like

I'm not strong and I'm breaking down and I don't know what to do.

And I actually made an attempt and

there's just shame in it.

But you called and gave me the opportunity to come.

And it was like, it was an honor to come over.

And, you know, that was, I think, a real, a real,

a real substantial

evolution for you and I in particular, because it was like, that's the trust.

Like, that's the thing I'd always,

once we went through the divorce part and all that, like you were,

you know, nobody, like you, you had done that for me.

You were there when I needed you.

And,

and, and you not only were that just there, like you were really there.

And so it's like, you called me and I was going to be there for you.

And, and that's how you build that, those, that another level of trust, right?

Everything's about trust, the whole thing, the whole thing.

And if you get the opportunity to

provide that to somebody,

it changes the whole thing.

It changes everything.

Now, moving forward into that night,

I don't remember why I came over.

Yours.

I was half in the bag.

Yeah.

You had called and I

was kind of like blew it off.

Like, I'm good, man.

I'm not doing anything.

And,

yeah.

I remember coming over.

This is pre-Johnna.

Oh, yeah.

This was.

And.

In the midst of the divorce.

You handed me a letter.

And I read the letter.

I don't remember what it said, but I remember I read it as...

A goodbye letter to your daughters.

Pretty much.

I remember looking at you.

And I just slapped you in the face as hard as I could and told you to fucking snap out of it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then I was enraged.

Yeah, we were both enraged.

Yeah.

I think I about choked you out.

You

got on top of me and were just, you did like, there was, It was no head to taste.

Like I was in shock.

And then you just kept coming.

And then I was like, all right, I like now you're going to feel my wrath.

And then we moved outside.

Remember that?

Yeah.

And the pool deck and the grass there.

And that's where every pain, piece of pain

that I had felt from that loss.

You know, that, and I really was

believed that

my kids were at stake and that I wasn't going to be able to be a

father for them because of just the nature of what I did and being on the road all the time.

And I was worried about their situation.

And

you were just like,

we're going to fight through this.

And I remember like, you just, you just,

you're a lot stronger than I thought you were.

And you're just, and then you started like toying with me.

And you started playing with me.

And I remember Gabe being there, like, almost like, hey, man, are you going to break this up?

And he just sat there.

And he's like, you're going to get a dose because you need a dose right now.

And I just remember like everything I did, you could counter it or was just frustrating.

And I couldn't think.

I couldn't.

Like, I was just,

I was breaking down again.

Like, I was,

I couldn't put together, I couldn't assemble a state of mind that made sense it was illogical it was irrational I was angry I was I was afraid

and

I don't know how it happened but I remember we switched around and I got I didn't I think I fish-eyed you I fish hook you the only thing I remember after that is you

on top of me with my arms pinned to the ground with your knees and you had grabbed

a dog bull, yeah, a big fucking dog bowl, yeah, Zulu's dog bowl, and you had it like this

getting ready to come down on my head.

And I just remember thinking, well, this is how it ends.

I get smashed in the face by a fucking dog bull by my best friend,

and uh, I think Gabe may be have stepped in at that point.

Yeah, I don't know what ended it, I can't remember.

He came over and kind of like looked at me, and Gabe was not somebody I wanted to mess with at all.

His silence was frightening because you knew the pain he was in.

And

he ended it.

And

I just, you know, you're up in that position and you realize like that was the moment of clarity.

Like you weren't there.

You were there to help me.

And through some bizarre

reasoning, like you were helping me by beating on me.

like we were getting this out we were like getting purging this pain that you and i were both suffering from but we were purging it on each other and

it just was exhausting and then i remember it's like kind of snapping two and

again shame

like my god what am i doing why are we doing this i love you you love me like

and i think that was a big another big huge transition for us it's it's weird it's like most people cultivate relationships in a slow, methodical,

you know, give and take, this reciprocation of empathy in a meaningful way.

But

it's not the way we did it.

And it was always intense.

But I think that's why the trust became what it is today.

And there's nobody, you know, almost nobody I trust more than you other than Jonna.

And I, and because of those moments, because of what you've done for me, because of what you've done for my family, what you've done for my children, what you're doing for me right now.

Like, you just,

that's what you seek.

That's what we want.

Do you still have that letter?

I think I do.

Yeah.

Are you going to watch this with your kids?

Oh,

man.

If they ask me to.

What are you going to say to them when they see this part?

I don't know because

I don't know what they'll ask.

I don't know what they'll want to know.

You know, my children are all brilliant.

You know, and

they've been through a lot.

Both my biological children and Jonna's biological children have been through a lot.

And they're resilient and they're strong and they're intelligent intelligent and they're empathetic and they're beautiful and

i i don't know if it's going to happen

now

or in a year or in 10 years i don't know but my hope is that they they do watch it and if they have questions they want to sit down i mean it's it's tough man because

You know, I have all this experience and all this life and

all these different stories i've gone through and

i want so desperately to share with them everything i've learned in order to prepare them for for their adventure for their voyage for their quest of of trying to find out the ultimate answer to the two most significant questions we can ask ourselves which is who am i and why am i here

And so this is part of it.

You know, my story is part of that.

And our story is part of that.

And these stories hopefully will

not shape them, but inform them.

And then

they can begin to trust

my intentions and what I want.

I've been trying to teach them

for a long time now.

I mean, I've been with

Jonna coming up on eight years and

Chloe was 10 and Gracie was, gee, she was six.

And so a lot of almost a lot of their life.

And,

you know, I.

You're doing a fantastic job.

Thanks, man.

You want to talk about fear?

Like, that's the greatest fear there is.

Is that my children are going to have to experience a world

that's really hard

and

I pray that you know Christ is in their heart and I pray that they

have the intestinal fortitude

to survive and to thrive and whatever adversity they face.

And so that's what John and I are,

our main intention is to teach them.

But it's hard.

You know, it's hard.

You know, I'm not perfect at at all.

I suffer from a lot of things.

I mean, it had gotten so bad

for a few years that

I finally,

you know, had to start seeing somebody and how I could be a better parent.

you know, and be more tolerant and be more patient.

But, you know,

you know, now what we call operator syndrome, that's a real thing, man.

And so

trying to manage that and

be an example of

not not

of something to emulate, but something to learn from.

You know,

that's what I want.

Well, I think.

When they do see this, because I'm sure they're going to watch it, I hope it's with you.

But I guarantee I'm to you one thing, they'll have a greater understanding of who their dad is and what his struggles are and why he is the way he is.

I hope so.

They will.

I'm praying it happens for sure.

How did you meet Johnna?

God's will.

Was that a

PTO meeting or some shit, wasn't it?

No, it was it was crazy.

Was that at the school.

It's at the school.

Yeah.

I, I,

you know, the

divorce came and went.

You know, it was in the midst of what was going on at TNQ at the with Marcus and the wizard.

And

that was devastating, just trying to push through in the midst of that and my losing my family and that collapsing.

And

I remember the divorce was finalized in

right before July 4th of 2017.

And,

you know, I was struggling financially.

I'd kind of gotten waylaid with alimony and, you know, got out lawyered and

was

petrified that I wasn't going to be able to parent these two little girls by myself and just had a really significant breakdown.

We went out to Colorado.

My parents had a place out there and

just kind of melted down.

And

my oldest was really struggling from the whole thing and was very confused.

And she was young and didn't know what was going on.

And so a lot of like really

challenging, worrisome behaviors were emerging out of her.

I remember just like kind of collapsing and

struggled, you know, and then started feeling a little bit better.

And I had a great support group that really helped during that time.

I mean, David Corlew was amazing for me.

Max was amazing.

Mark Plermo was incredible.

Richie was amazing.

You were good, you know, amazingly.

I mean, shit,

you were in it with me and had this great team.

And my parents, my parents were

unbelievable, unbelievable, amazing for me.

And so it's like I got through it better than I'd ever gotten through anything.

You know, college, it was four years.

Post

Teams, it was three years of misery.

And then this, it was relatively compact.

I mean, it was about a year and a half of pretty substantial misery.

And

our

relationship really began to struggle in 2013.

14 worse, 15 worse.

By 16, it was essentially over.

And,

you know, she wanted a separation and divorce.

And then, and it was just, so that summer came through, the fall.

And I remember in the fall of 17, I had reached out to Maggie again and said, hey, Maggie, can we do a sweat lodge?

And she had this remarkable guy named Jeff and had run sweat lodges.

And I had done some with her son a couple of times before.

He ended up going through a ton of stuff, going in the military, going to Buds, and actually had made it all the way to Damnik.

And

so I asked Maggie, hey, can we go through this, you know, this thing?

And she was wonderful through that as a support too.

And we did this sweat lodge with my close friend, Lex McMahon, amazing, amazing human being, former Marine,

runs a fight promotion company in South Florida, just amazing.

And you know, Met Lex and

this other guy that I had met doing

training case officers who we had become very close.

And he was just a remarkable guy, four years in combat, just

really amazing guy.

And kind of to back up,

kind of my low point was as the relationship was collapsing,

in the spring, Bruce Cuttingham had drank himself to death.

And that was devastating because I couldn't pull him out.

I tried multiple times.

We could not pull him out of that.

And

it was his funeral in October.

And I'd gone to his funeral at Arlington, spoke at it,

and went and had lunch, and then went over to the Naval Academy for Brian Hoke's funeral, who was in 209, then went over and was killed as a PMCO at the agency, was shot by a sniper.

And so went over there and I reconnected with this friend.

He was a mess.

I was a mess.

And so

fast forward the next fall, I reached out and I was like, hey, man, I want to come down and go do this sweat lodge.

I'm really kind of broken and I want to know.

And Lex was going through a ton himself.

And I was like, you want to do it?

So we went in this sweat lodge up in Lake Worth.

And

it was amazing.

And it was the probably third one I'd done, but this one, like, it's called the Warrior's Lodge.

And so there's 21 lava rocks they heat up and they put in this thing.

And you get in and this guy leads through these prayers, these four sequence prayers.

You tie these prayer beads and, you know, and you tie 100 pieces of tobacco in this red thing on the string, and then you put it above you.

And man, I tied 100 prayers and they were like, and almost all of them were like, God,

please just let me find somebody I can love who will love me for who I am and help me help my children and help me get through this.

And

we went into this thing and

by

like hour two and a half, three, and my face is in the dirt and it's so high.

It feels like my eyes are melting and my skin's melting.

And this guy's saying these prayers and,

you know, I just break and I was like, I got to get out.

I got to get out.

I got to get out.

And so I got out and my face is in the mud.

It had rained and I was in the mud and I'm sitting there and I'm just looking up at the sky and I'm just, I'm broken.

And Lex, I look over, is next to me in the mud.

And then my other friend is next to him.

And then there's Maggie just sitting above us just looking at us and I remember us just like and she kind of smiled at me and it was like you're gonna be okay now

and

after that I was like I gotta change my mentality of this I have to assess this differently I have to look at life differently.

I have to find, I have to be a better man.

I can't keep carrying this stuff on and on and force other people to experience it, most especially these two little girls who need a father now in a broken home.

And so I was like, all right, kind of pulled myself together and

two months, three months later,

I was supposed to go speak at this Broward County Sheriff's thing.

They canceled last minute.

I was like, whatever.

And called another friend who was participated at the girls' school.

And it's like, hey, do you want to go to this thing?

I was like, I was first, I was like, hey, you got a spot at your table.

He's like, yeah, come to it.

So I was like, cool.

And so show up

and

met her.

She like, she was, I got to the table early and I was just like, why am I here?

What am I doing?

And there was a single, everybody sat down in a single seat.

And this woman walked up and sat down.

It was Johnna.

And I was just like,

oh my God.

And I was

like, I don't know.

It was like Thunderbolt hit me and worked up enough courage at one point to go over and show my moves.

And mind you, I had been married

eight years, nine years.

And I'm wearing jeans.

It was, it was denim and jean, a denim and diamonds or something.

I'm wearing jeans and a jean shirt and a fedora and I had the long hair.

And she's like, And I'm like,

and I sit down next to her and, and I start, and she just comes back and it's like, you know, essentially like, who do you think you are?

None of this is going to work with me.

I don't know what you're doing.

And

I just kept going.

And she just was a snapper head back.

And I was like, oh, my God.

And we ended up going to an after place together afterwards.

And it was, it was like, it was this.

This like, oh my God, this person.

And the way she smiled and her eyes just like, they ripped through me.

And

I,

the person that we were with, she was like, you know, why don't you go home with him?

Because like she had babysitters.

And I like, and I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Let me drive you home.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And she's like, I don't know.

I was like, please, like, I'm good.

She's like, he's fine.

Go ahead.

And so drove her back.

We're sitting outside.

And I said, hey, is it cool?

Can I have your number?

I would, I would really like to, you know, see you again.

And she's like, yeah, all right.

And so she gives it to me.

And

she got out and ran in.

And that was, and I went back that night and she had left her jacket.

She made this cool jacket with her name Strollo on the back and sequence.

And I was like, I sent her a picture of the jacket.

I say,

you're now, you definitely have to see me.

Otherwise, I'm going to hold your jacket hostage.

Dumb choice of words, right?

Like first text after this, like horrible.

but that's me.

I was an idiot, right?

And she's like, hostage.

She's like, psycho.

And I was like, no, no, no, no.

And she, she wrote that.

She wouldn't call me, but that's essentially what it, what she was implying in her return text.

And so that next night, I called her and we talked for three hours.

And then I left that week to go on the road.

I had a couple of speaking engagements.

And every night we talked for three to four hours.

Following week, she agreed to go to this wine tasting.

We went

and it was just, oh my God.

And it happened quickly and we were just talking and I've never met anybody that could talk and was interested in what my thoughts and the way I felt.

And,

you know, and it wasn't, she didn't want to hear about me working with the Red Sox or having a big podcast or being a speaker or writing books or she didn't give a shit about any of that stuff.

And she wanted to know who I was and what I had gone through.

And

our,

I was just blown away by her, but there was this mystery.

There was something deeper that she wasn't sharing with me.

And she was a private person.

And,

you know, and I remember it was right after the Parkland shooting.

And I had done an event where I had spoken to a guy who's in a,

who is a financial advisor, his clients, and then he had kids that had gone.

He reached out and he said, hey, would you come and speak to these five kids who are at Parkland and try and help them through this and explain it to them?

And I was like, absolutely.

And

I said, hey, would you like to come with me to see, this is what I really am passionate about doing?

And she's like, okay.

And we went to this thing and I delivered the speech and we left and she was quiet.

And And I was like, Uh-oh, what's going on?

You know, did I say something?

Does she not dig this?

What am I doing wrong?

And we went back to my house and we went into

my bedroom and we sat down.

And she's like, There's something I have to share with you.

And I was like, What is it?

And she's like, I want to let you know that my husband committed suicide.

And that's why I'm a widow.

And

I don't know what it was about that.

I think, you know, some people would be intimidated by that or be,

how do I react to that?

How do I over-measure up?

You know, how do I replace that?

What do I do?

And,

you know, that's all a selfish way to look at it.

But I,

for me, it was a sign, it signified her strength.

that she was a person that could lose this amazing human being,

you know, in the prime of his life.

He was, you know, an assistant and personal trainer for one of the largest rock stars in the world.

And

he just,

through whatever reasons or whatever unknown, he just kind of went through this collapse while she was pregnant with their second child with Gracie.

And she spoke with just not of anger or or frustration or anything about him,

but

she spoke about reverence of the experience and what she'd learned.

And so, you know, she became a widow at 29 years old with a four-year-old and a four-month-old, two-month-old.

And

she didn't quit.

She didn't break down.

I mean, obviously it was debilitating and unbelievably

traumatic in every way, in every sense of the word.

But

she kept fighting and she fought for those girls.

And those two girls are just amazing human beings.

They're such beautiful children and they're gracious.

Chloe is like me.

It's crazy.

She's so much like me, but she's not even my blood daughter, but she has, you know, got big energy and she's athletic and she's, you know, she's hilarious and she's got this beautiful laugh.

And she walks in the room and lights up.

And

then Gracie is just,

she's just been touched, you know.

And

I'll never forget the first time we came together because we kept it a secret for months.

We didn't want to deal with.

what would happen at the school or we didn't want to, you know, because

my divorce was already kind of known around this, the school.

And it was, you know, it was,

you know, I was the single guy.

I was the, you know, whatever people describe you as.

And, you know, and, and

our first time we, I met the girls with her, we went over to that same guy's house and

And it was Easter.

And it was like

an instantaneously instantaneously falling in love with those children and her.

And it was like, wow, this is good.

It's going to work.

And I had already like

this one was like 11 days and I knew I wanted to be with her.

Like it was just,

it was,

I, you know, I, if,

you know, it's.

You don't want to say, you know, the old thing, my soulmate, but it was deeper than that.

I found somebody whose soul was intact and was honest.

She's the most honest person I've ever met in my life.

And I needed that.

I needed truth.

I needed truth desperately.

Real.

Yeah.

And so that began our relationship.

And it came out of

the recognition that our tragedies were not going to define us.

And she proved that.

I remember the first time I met her.

Katie and I had dinner with you guys.

And I remember the conversation was for the first time in my life I'd seen you

completely content

and being yourself yeah

your true self that's right

yeah

she taught me how to do that because she does that

every day

she is who she is

And I,

you know, we all,

we want to be that.

We aspire.

We have ambition for that.

But for whatever reasons, whatever experiences, whatever trauma we carry or whatever it is, it's difficult to manifest that under duress and extenuating circumstances.

But

that's who she is.

And she allowed me to discover that in myself.

How did you propose to her?

About a year later.

Yeah, that was February 10th and then the following year.

And what's nuts is

the anniversary of Tony's death is like a day later is when I asked her to marry me.

And

so many just other

interesting things about those times.

Scotty's death, Dave Hall at a funeral around those times.

And

it never phased her.

never like our first trip we we took together was to Scotty's funeral out and like that was right around the same time and

and um

yeah and it was amazing we did at my parents house and all the girls were around and and I got down on a knee and

and I asked her to marry me

and it was uh Unbelievable.

She said, yeah.

And I thought I'd never get married again.

I thought there was no way I could do it.

I couldn't go through that again.

And she made me want to.

She made me want to

be a better man.

Not just for her, but for her children, for my children, and for our family.

Yeah.

It's worked out great so far.

Yeah.

I mean, she's taught me

that you're not defined by your failures.

You're defined by what you do every day.

You're not defined by the insecurities you feel.

You're defined by how you persevere in them.

You're not defined by your shortfalls, your ineptitude, your lack of intelligence, your whatever you think are your shortfalls, that you're not defined.

You're defined by how you make other people feel

and doing the right thing.

And that's where she comes from.

You know, her parents, that's who they are.

That's who they live.

That's what they live up to.

And her brothers and their families.

And that's, you know, that's where she comes from.

She comes from Maine

and

a teeny little town up in

J Maine.

Well, Dave, we're wrapping up the interview here.

Yeah.

You got have anything to say to your kids?

Yeah, I do

Don't be afraid of the unknown, you know

That wisdom that my dad gave me be a Renaissance man be Renaissance women

Seek out the challenges, the hard things

You know live figure out what you are inspired by, what your passion, what your meaning is, and

where you want to go.

And,

you know,

embrace your fear and have self-confidence and seek out great teams.

And when you do that, you'll find your purpose

and then live openly with purpose in your heart.

And that's an important thing,

how to do that.

That's what all of my insecurities have led me to want to

do, to teach other people how to do that.

That's what it's inspired me to continue with frog logic and to work with the people I work with and to do what I do

in the hopes that my children will say, hey, this is something that works.

And it's not coming from a made-up place.

I got to read

some motivational book and be like, oh, this sounds cool.

I'm going to try and do this.

It all comes from

the life I've lived and the life of my friends and what I've learned from you all.

And

from the Dan Cerrillos and

the other people in my life that are so impactful.

Do you have anything you want to say to Jonna?

Yeah.

I love you and thank you.

I would not be,

I would not have found,

I would not have rediscovered who I am without her.

I would not be able to do what I do.

I would not have the confidence to come in here and sit across from you and share as extensively as I have without her.

She taught me how to communicate again.

She taught me how to

have strength again, what mattered with strength.

She taught me how to love again.

She taught me how to want to heal, how to want to figure out how to improve and get better.

You know, she

helps me in every way, shape, or form.

You know, she helps me run the business.

She helps me run my business with, you know, the asset management firm I work with.

She helps me write curriculum.

She helps me

everything in every aspect of my life.

She's my

ultimate best friend.

She's my lover.

And I think what I want to tell her is that

I will always be with her.

I will always love her.

I will always try and be better for her and that I'm not going anywhere and that

I'm in.

She gave me something when we first started together when she knew when she was willing to take the risk with me.

And

I promised her I would protect that with everything that I have as man.

And I just want to reinforce that, that

I'm going to do that.

She's really brought out the best in you man yeah thank you

you're a lucky guy i feel like it yeah

good

well dave

i can't wait to see what the david brotherford show

brings in the future and for anybody watching

it's awesome content so but most of all man

Thank you for being my friend.

Thank you for introducing me to my wife.

Thank you for marrying us.

Thank you for being a mentor.

And I love you, dude.

I love you too.

You're welcome.

Thank you for

being

my best friend.

And thank you for not beating the hell out of me too bad.

And thank you for sharing this space that you've created that's making so much good in the world.

And for inspiring me to keep trying to do the same because that's

that's worth it.

That's worth everything we've gone through is to

give back, to share what we've learned.

You'll always be my best friend, man.

Thank you.

Same.

I am Michael Rosenbaum.

I am Tom Welling.

Welcome to Talk Bill, where it's fun to talk about small bills.

We're going to be talking to sometimes guest stars.

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