#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan

Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about a delicious dog food, Ollie.
If your dog could talk, they'd want Ollie. They'd ask you for Ollie.
That's what I'm talking about. It's a fresh whole food diet.
It's not just delicious. It can add, like, years to your puppy's life.
Yeah. You want that good, healthy food that's more tail wagging.
And this is. This is real food.
Like, this stuff looks good. I'd eat it.
Yeah. That's how I was like, this looks pretty good.
I might sit down with you on the floor and you could share. It is nice to be able to pop something down on the floor for him that looks like something that you'd put over rice or whatever and eat it yourself.
That's what I mean. It looks great.
All you need to do, you fill out their 30 second quiz that Ollie has for you. They create a customized meal plan based on your puppy's weight and activity level and health info in general there.
You get expert recommendations. Dogs deserve the best, and that means fresh, healthy food.
Head to ollie.com slash STM. Tell them all about your dog and use code STM to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today.
Plus, they offer a clean bowl guarantee on the first box. So if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back.
That's O-L-L-I-E dot com slash STM and enter code STM to get 60% off your first box. Now back to the show.
Forever change the way you sleep with the softest 100% organic cotton sheets from Bowlin Branch.

You'll fall asleep faster, wrapped in the most luxurious comfort.

You'll never sleep hot again with sheets that feel airy and breathable.

You'll experience the purest softness on night one and feel your sheets get even softer with every wash.

Take 20% off your first set of sheets during Bowlin Branch's annual spring event at bowlinbranch.com with code WONDERY20. Limited time only.
Exclusions apply. See site for details.

Scam Factory, the explosive new true crime podcast from Wondery, exposes a multi-billion

dollar criminal empire. Every suspicious text you ignore masks a huge network of compounds

where thousands are held captive and forced to scam others under the threat of death. Follow Scam Factory on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.
This week in Arcadia Township, Michigan, when a woman is found floating face down in a lake, it makes everybody wonder, was this just a tragic accident, a sad suicide, or one of the coldest murders you could possibly commit?

Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder.
Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed.
My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host.
I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another crazy edition of Small Town Murder.
We've had a lot of crazy lately. Last week, the main episode was Haddon Clark, who was one of the most insane serial killers with all of his drawings.
Terrible person, yeah. It's been crazy lately.
Definitely, before we get started, head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. First of all, merchandise is there.
But second, tickets to shows are there. Oh, yeah.
Get those right now. Get your 420 tickets for the virtual live show anywhere in the world that you are with an internet connection.
You can watch a live show. It'll be just like a regular live show, except we're going to be wearing costumes.
And since it'll be a 420 show, it takes place on the 19th of April, and there's two weeks you can get it after that. But since it's on 420, I'll have crazy smoking apparatus for Jimmy to be terrified of and a crazy story and all the pictures and everything like that.
Can't wait. And you should get tickets for regular live shows while you're there as well.
Next up in May, we have St. Louis and Chicago.
Think St. Louis is about gone, everybody.
But Chicago, still tickets left for Chicago. Get them right now before they're gone.
And for the rest of the year, too, because we have a bunch of shows that are sold out already. So get in there right now.
Even in December. Philly, D.C., get them right now because they're almost gone.
So do that. Shut up and givememurder.com.
Also, listen to Crime in Sports if you haven't because this week you definitely don't have to like sports. We have been doing a series on Evil Knievel who's just one of the craziest guys.
And that's just – What a guy. That's more of a cultural icon type thing.
It has nothing to do with sports. Check it out.
It's a crazy series. And also listen to your stupid opinions, which is the funniest show on the internet.
So check all those out. And then also subscribe to Patreon while you're at it.
Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all the bonus material. Anybody, $5 a month or above, you're going to get it all.
You're going to get hundreds of back episodes. You've never heard before immediately upon subscription.
Then new ones every other week. One crime and sports, one small town murder, and you're going to get them all.
That's right. All of it.
This week for crime and sports, we're going to talk about the 2012 Miami Dolphins bullying scandal. And some new stuff that's come up about that lately.
You know, in retrospect, people have different opinions now, so that's interesting. And then for small town town murder we're going to talk about the amazon review killer who killed people held women hostage did all this stuff and then the tools of that trade he left truthful amazon reviews about about you know how this was helpful in killing people it's bonkers we'll talk all about that that is patreon.com slash crime in sports and you get a shout out at the of the show as well.
Jimmy will mess your name all up. That said, disclaimer time.
It's a comedy show, everybody. That's one thing.
Unfortunately, the facts are as real as they could be. Honestly, we wish we could just tell you fictional stories and that would be fine.
But these are real stories. The details are super real, meticulously researched and and everything like that so there's also going to be jokes we're comedians that's how we do this thing so but we've decided and we figured out a long time ago that it's really easy to separate the two that's it there's nothing funny about an actual murder that's that's not there's no joke when someone's head's being cut off that's not funny what's funny is hmm where do i put the now? That's a funny thought right there.
Maybe I'll put it in the freezer, and nobody will notice it. That's crazy, and that's funny.
So that's where it comes from. What we don't do, what we never do, is we never make fun of the victims or the victims' families.
Why is that, James? Because we're assholes. But? But we're not scumbags.
See? Real simple. That's how that goes.
So if you think that sounds good to you, you're going to hear a wild story.

If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever go together, we might not be for you.

But give it a shot.

I think maybe we are for you.

So either way, no complaining later.

That said, I think it's time to sit back, everybody.

Here we go.

Let's all clear the lungs here.

Let's arms to the sky.

Let's all shout.

Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody.
Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's do it. We're going to Michigan this week.
Oh, yeah. Where we will be this year in Grand Rapids.
I think that's already sold out or damn close to it. Pretty close.
Not really plugging it at this point. This is Arcadia Township, Michigan.
Now- Is that the UP? No, it's not. It's Northern Michigan, but not the UP.
It's on the- Oh. It's right on the lake up in Northwestern Michigan.
Yeah, but it's in the regular part. And it's not the other Arcadia Township.
Michigan- What? Listen, we're supposed to have one town name per state. You can't have two Smith towns in the same state.
They have two Arcadia townships in the same goddamn state, which is a ones in Lapeer County, I guess, down in kind of central south. L-A-P-E-E-R.
Lapeer. No, not Lapeer.
I would have gotten. No, I know Pierre.
I could have pronounced that. But LaPierre County, I guess.

I don't know.

LaPierre.

Whatever the hell it is.

This is two hours and 15 minutes to Grand Rapids, where we will be in September.

Two hours to our last Michigan episode, Crockery Township, Michigan, which was the Battle of the Neighbors, which was wild stuff.

I love those.

For some reason, I love the ones where it's two neighbors fighting for years,

and then there's a showdown.

For some reason, those really interest me.

I don't know why.

Because you don't want to talk to them.

It's validation for you as well.

Yes.

Yeah, this is why.

This is why.

Just mind your business.

Obviously, I don't want to barbecue with them.

God damn it.

Stick to yourself.

Next thing you know, we'll be having a gunfight in the yard.

We'll be dueling in the yard in front of the fucking ribs.

So this is in Manistee County, area code 231.

And there is no motto, but I'm going to give you what it says on the website about this place. This is kind of what their whole deal here.
Since the 1900s, the climate tempered by the cool waters of Lake Michigan has made Arcadia a refuge for those seeking relief from the pressures and confinement of the metropolitan areas of southern Michigan and neighboring states. So they're telling you can't take it anymore, come here for a weekend.
That's what it is. It's just all like a little resort lake town.
There's no I feel like. There's no sticking around.
No. Come by for a bit and get the fuck out of town.
This is where they played pool in the great outdoors and stuck that pool cue between the chick's legs and she flung it across the. Yeah, that's that's where we are here, except Michigan and Wisconsin longer than a week.
Never a week because they leave. Damn it.
But Buck's going to be different. Yeah.
So even though he's not, he's leaving too. It's stupid.
So dumb.

That's the funniest scene too when they're sitting in that boat and she's like, and you're leaving in two days. And he's like, yeah, but.
Yeah, this is the whole reason I didn't want to go out with you. That was the point.
She's trying to tell him and he's like, yeah, but I could finger you now. It's like, no, you're not getting it.
Yeah, but show me your tits. Yeah, that's all he's asking for.
It's real weird. So history of this town, they organized a township in 1870 and then founded the village of Arcadia in 1880.
There's Arcadia Township. Then within that is Arcadia, which is inside of Arcadia Township.
Ridiculous. So the early history, they say, is dominated by Henry Stark, who was a Milwaukeean who established a lumber mill and made a shitload of money.

Also established a church

and all that kind of shit here. It was a big

lumber town through the early 1900s.

In 1906, that

guy's lumber town, lumber mill,

Henry Stark, it burned to the ground.

Of course.

As everything did.

He was going to save the planet.

Lumber man and Mr. Stark.
You know what else lumber is? Flammable. That's the problem.
Very flammable. Iron Man figured it out.
That shit doesn't burn. It doesn't burn quite as easy.
So it was replaced by the Arcadia Furniture Factory. Now, there are no reviews of the town proper because it's a small town, but there are reviews of the place that we're going to talk about where this murder took place this week or where the death happened here, which is the Watervale Inn.
It's right on the lake. It's like the most famous inn around here.
It's built in the 1920s or something. It's very old.
And so they say it features 14 cottages, which are suites of rooms. So they have cottages separate, then they have a main building with suites inside of that.
It's pretty cool. And the historic inn where breakfast and dinner are served daily, it is situated on two lakes, this inn.
So it's a very, very good vacation spot, essentially. Sure.
And they have like a big boat dock where people can go out and a big deck where they go out and drink wine and look at the lake. A little water town, yeah.
Yeah, it's really nice. This place has 4.8 stars on Google as well.
That's fantastic. It's really good.
Out of 85 reviews. Here is one from Mary Jean.
Five stars. Love this place.
Old school, cool at its finest. Charming cottages.
Beautiful setting. Be sure to do the Mount baldy hike and walk back along the water the way you get to run down the dunes that's a long way it's a long walk on the beach be prepared okay that's what you want to know what mount baldy means because there's like 3 000 there's a lot of them at west there's a bunch of them too yeah yeah i think idaho has one i want to say utah or somewhere has one there's a lot of them ari West, there's a bunch of them, too.
Yeah. I think Idaho has one.
I want to say Utah or somewhere has one.

There's a lot of them.

Arizona has like six.

Yeah, it's ridiculous.

Maybe it's just there's nothing on top of it, so they called it Mountain Baldy.

I don't know.

Or there's a guy named Baldy who was climbing all the mountains but had no hair.

That's a real outgoing sumbitch.

He had no hair, but he was great at mountain climbing.

Yeah.

So that's fine.

Shitload of North Face gear, this guy. Tons.
Patagonia up his ass. It's all over the place.
And then finally, one star from Rick. The owners are not friendly.
That's all. Well, that's because Rick wanted to walk around without a shirt.
They were like, maybe inside put one on. It's the pants, I think, were the problem.
The shirt, they didn't mind. But they were like, Rick, you got toick you gotta have something on please it's wind it's windy up here you're just going flopping all around just in his this is fruit of the looms just any white can i just take some pancakes to my room you can go to your room until you have clothes on rick you can eat all your meals in your room rick tell you what we'll just leave a tray outside of it and you you come out get it.
The owners, by the way, are in this murder story. They're not murderers or murdered, but they're involved in this so this is pretty funny.
When you hear their quotes always just think the owners are not friendly. It's funny.
People in this town, 524 is the permanent residence. Just enough to work all the places and stores and ice cream shops and shit.

More males than females here, which is odd.

Really?

Over 51% male, but it's very strange because the median age is 60.

So when people are older, usually the males start to die off and you get more females.

So this is a very strange stat there. 60% married, which is higher than the national average.
Single with children. 0.0%.
None. We're all old.
Don't care. Married and have kids.
That's it. Race in this town, 94.6% white, 4% black, 1.1% Hispanic.
Religion, 40.4% religious, and it's spread around pretty good. There's some Lutherans, an Episcopalian or two, a Presbyterian here or there.
Most of them are Catholic, though. 20% Catholic.
So, Catholics are the Baptists of the northern Midwestern area. Of the Great Lakes.
Catholics of the Baptists of the Great Lakes. Unemploy lakes unemployment rate is 7.6 percent here which is much higher than the national average and that's because there's a limited amount here i mean there's just you either work at the store that sells the little melted snow globey things or you know it's a tourist town so the fish yeah not a lot of industry here that you can really crank on to median household income here though is high it's 74 167 dollars a year which is higher than a 69 000 it's the average cost of living here is 78 out of 100 which is pretty low housing is the median home cost here is $249,500.

Wow.

Which sounds good.

For a lake town?

That sounds great.

Sounds great until you get into the housing market.

That includes just a lot that has no houses on it.

You know what I mean?

So that could be $100,000,

and they average that out with a house that's half a million dollars,

and you have a lower average. So in case you want to find out a little more about it,

maybe you're looking for a nice place to spend a summer night in the lake here

Thank you. house that's half a million dollars and you have a lower average.
In case you want to find out a little more about it, maybe you're looking for a nice place to spend a summer night in the lake here. We have for you the Arcadia Township, Michigan Real Estate Report.
The average two-bedroom rental here goes for $940 a month, which sounds low, honestly, in this area. It doesn't sound bad.
The average is $1,200 or so. Yeah, it's around $1,200.
Here's a three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,100-square-foot condo. This is not a private home, and there's a condo, so there's another house attached to you.
It says in the listing, just steps to your own private 30-foot dock slip on Arcadia Lake. Awesome.
That's pretty cool. It's pretty bland on the inside.
This is not a place I feel like where you live. This is a weekend summer place because all those places, like in Lake George they have those.
All the houses for sale. They're like 700 grand and inside they're from 1981.
There's carpet. They're a mess.
So that's what it looks like. It looks like a giant motel room that needs an update, the whole house.
$224,900 bucks though. So if you just want to go up and party on the lake or whatever, I mean, if you want to own a lake house, there you go.
That's pretty expensive still, isn't it? It's expensive, yeah, but I mean, that's below the average to live on the lake. Yeah, for a lake house, too.
Yeah. It's really not that bad.
Yeah, I assume if you're going to buy a lake house, you're not, like, you know, counting scrimping pennies at that point. You're probably...
You're doing all right. You're doing okay for yourself.
Here's a four-bedroom, three-bath, 2,364-square-foot house on 3.52 acres. Okay.
It's nice inside. It's very updated, HGTV-friendly type of joint.

Not bad.

Not on the lake, but you have views of Lake Michigan.

So it's okay.

$799,900 for that, though.

But it is 2,500 square feet almost and three and a half acres.

So, okay.

$800,000.

A little pricey.

Here's a three-bedroom, two-bath, speaking of pricey, 2,033 square foot. So not humongous.
Smaller than the other one. It's on 4.97 acres.
Hell yeah. And I'll read the listing.
Rare opportunity to own this amazing property. 198 feet of private frontage on Lake Michigan.
Nearly five acres of land. Wow.
Yeah, this is... Two-thirds, 60 yards of shoreline.
That's yours. That's yours on Lake Michigan.
Nobody will be there. It's fucking awesome.
It's all woods around your house leading up to Lake Beautiful. Built in 1920.
Inside, it's 1989. That's what it looks like in there.
That's when it was updated. Farty as the day is long, but a lot of like real wood paneling in the rooms that looks nice.
You know, that kind of shit. $1,150,000 though.
You're going to pay for that. You have five acres of lakefront.
You're paying for it. That's how that works.
Things to do here. Okay.
Got a couple of things. First is Arcadia Days.
D-A-Z-E, of course. Every town seems to have one.

And it says to the festival is a great local event that celebrates the heritage of Arcadia, Michigan.

And this is how they celebrate, with a pickleball tournament.

That tells me about heritage and old-timey things.

It's old people, yeah.

Fireworks over Lake Michigan, pulled pork sandwiches with fixings with fixings fixings from 5 p.m until sold out it says music by barefoot that's the band okay and then also no no barefoot not one shoe nothing that uh we have a free horse carriage rides Dance to live music by Bent Carrot, which sounds like a dick euphemism. Sure does.
Sounds like you got some Peronis and you got a dick euphemism. Sounds like you were throwing a lot of hips real fast.
Real quick. Off coordination.
Fucking Bent Carrot time. Kids fishing tournament.
Sure. Children's story.
Fishing for kids. A doubles cornhole tournament.
Let's get together and see how much corn we can hold. Double-sided cornhole.
Double-sided. Also a ham and German potato salad lunch.
Okay. You're going to be farting all day.
German in the type of food. I imagine it's because the mayo in that potato salad is sour.
I think the German one is mustard. Is it? I think the German is the yellow one, I think.
Really? There's maybe mayo, too, but it's mainly a mustardy-based one, the German one. It has, like, bacon in it sometimes.
I might be able to talk like that. It's not bad.
It's okay. It's not too terrible.
Let me see here. We also have free horse carriage rides, more music by Barefoot.
They're playing every fucking night. God damn.
Then there's the Mini Ha Ha Brew Ha Ha. Okay, some native stuff.
That's okay. Now, the festival will highlight the talented local bands that call Northwestern Michigan home.
Oh, no. These are bands from the woods, everybody.
Honor the natives with the worst music on the planet. Oh, man.
It says from students who are just starting their music careers to the home-style jamboree bands of music lovers. This sounds awful.
The centerpiece stage will be supported by a collection of other homegrown favorites like local food trucks and a tasting sponsored by regional breweries. We believe that local acts deserve a spot in the limelight.
They will once they get good enough for people to see them. There's plenty.
You wait until they get to open for somebody. They'll get their due.
I promise. This isn't the 70s.
No. They're out there on the Internet.
If people like them, they'll find them. I mean.
That's the thing now. If you're good, you'll get an audience.
Yeah. Chaple Rhone was a nobody a year and a half ago, and she had tons of music already made.
You know what I mean? Like, they'll pick it up. Don't worry about it.
So, they want to do that and encourage the growth of our unique music scene. Now, this includes at 11 a.m., the coveted 11 a.m.
spot that all performers can't wait to do. The Crosscut Kings will be there.

And then Jake Allen and T.J. Rankin will be there.

Next up, I'm going to give you a name of a band,

and I'm going to ask you to, well, here, I'll just give you the name. D-G-A-N-G-O-P-F-O-N-I-Q-E.
Django Phonic. Django Phonic.
Yeah. What do you think that band looks like? And I guarantee you, everyone out there listening right now, no matter what you're fucking picturing, you are really wrong.
Like, dead fucking wrong. It's not like black people doing techno music or something.
Oh, who the fuck is this?

It is a group.

Don't do that.

First of all, they have a stand-up bass, which is like an oboe or a clarinet or some shit.

A lady who looks like she's wearing a fucking prom dress with full gloves going up her arm.

Above the elbow, man.

Three dudes, four dudes in bow ties.

It looks like if you went to a fancy hotel, they'd be quietly playing in the lounge.

That's Django Fenneke.

Django Fenneke.

And then there is, after him, Darren Vandermolen, who I hate to do this to you.

Oh, boy.

But I'm just going to show him to you, and you can make your own.

Oh, shit. He looks just like i hate it i hate that he does but i saw the picture and i'm like oh no it's jimmy rocking on the base transplants darren get out of my life oh no same thing and uh he's playing bass with a little kid in front of him there.
We also have Nick Vein. Vine? Vein? I don't know.
V-E-I-N-E. I don't know who the fuck that is.
That's Vein, isn't it? He needs to come up with a better name. Vein.
That's either a cock euphemism or it's Vine. I don't know.
The Mark Lavingood Band. This is awful.
That is the Mark Lavingood Band, it sounds like. I'm not into that.
Jones and the Get Down, which at least sounds like a band. Sean Kelly, who I assume is going to just play Irish fucking Irish music the whole time.
Whiskey in the jar. I hear sad music to drink to.
All right. All right.
We're playing Rattlin' Bog for the third time. The Ride after that.
The Jim Cummins Band. Yeah.
And then TC Knuckleheads. All right.
Beats the shit out of me. I don't know.
Those are local bands, everybody. You betcha.
Crime rate in this town, what we are interested in here.

Property crime is about one-third below the national average, so it's safer than normal.

And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault.

The Mount Rushmore of crime is about half the national average.

Okay, so pretty good.

As you would expect at, like, a sleepy lake town, people aren't just savaging each other in the streets, which is good. Although there are some holiday-travel some problems that's gonna happen gonna happen it's it goes you can't can't avoid it unavoidable so that said let's talk about some murder here let's get into this uh let's talk about a woman first here florence stern okay s-t-e-r-n stern goes by Flo because that's a cooler name anybody with the name Flo

sounds Florence Stern. Okay.
S-T-E-R-N Stern. Yeah.
Goes by Flo. Because that's a cooler name.
Flo sounds... Anybody with the name Flo sounds cool.
They're fun. They sound like they're cool.
Hey, Flo. Hey, what's happening? She sounds chill.
She's born in 1966. Here.
She is from Huntington Woods, Michigan, which is a Detroit suburb, apparently. Oh.
Yeah. They made it sound like it's way far away from Detroit, though.
Sure does. Put woods in there.
People think it's totally different. They won't see.
And Huntington sounds like it's so far out, that's where you can shoot a deer from your front porch. Sounds like fancy woods.
Yeah. And then your servant will go retrieve the deer for you that you just shot from your front woods.
She's the daughter of Harold and Claire Stern. And people apparently flow using by the she's has the name flow.
So she's got to use it is very good at making friends and very good at connecting with people. Yeah.
She's very good at that. Very, very friendly and that kind of shit.
And she's into arts. In college, she's a fine arts major.
So she does that. Her friend said she brought a sense of beautiful, of the beautiful to everything she did.
I don't know. I don't know what that means.
That sounds pretentious. Don't say that about me.
I'm sure they won't no he brought a sense of beautiful to everything he did now i i'm more likely to say he looked like dan van der molen or whoever that guy darren van der molen i'm never gonna forget that motherfucker's name as long as i live never never you son of a bitch i hate him so much oh you bastard so uh yeah she did that sense of the beautiful i'm not saying she sounds pretentious her friend sounds pretentious for saying that it sounds weird um now she knew somebody named connie here who has a brother named mark all right um connie says she's beautiful she's charming she's fun you know flows a here. Now, Connie's brother, his name is Mark.
Mark Unger, like Felix, U-N-G-E-R. He is born in 1960, so a few years older than her.
Also from the Huntington Woods area. Really? Interesting.
So he's got two sisters, Kim and Connie. And Connie's the one who knows this flow.
Now Unger, when he's a kid, he's a big sports guy. Always really into sports.
Wanted to be like an athlete. But like most people, isn't going to be a professional athlete.
Unfortunately. Yeah.
But still wants to do shit involved in sports. That's his deal.
He played t-ball when he was a kid like kids do and loves sports. He attended the Detroit Country Day School where he was on the tennis team.
So number one, Detroit Country Day School. That sounds like a private school that's very fancy.
Because there's schools here that are like the Rye Country Day School my friend went to. Because he got a hockey scholarship.
It's very expensive. Country Day School were like in the 90s they were like 20 grand a year to send your kid to high

school it was wild yeah that was back then so that sounds expensive and he's on the tennis team

which is also an expensive sport that's the most yeah that's a teenager if you're good at tennis

you've played a lot of tennis that's crazy that you have that much access to tennis courts i didn't

fucking have a i mean there was like parks with tennis courts but no one played tennis on them

Thank you. a lot of tennis that's crazy that you have that much access to tennis courts i didn't fucking have a i mean there was like parks with tennis courts but no one played tennis on them you know what i mean like there was a park with tennis courts on it near me but the the nets were never on unless they had like some league up there then they put the nets on so otherwise posts in a in a green uh blacktop otherwise people just set the nets on fire.
That's all. Right.
Cut strings off of it, whatever. Yeah.
So he ended up going to the University of Michigan, and so did Flo. Okay.
So that's where they're going to meet here. Now, Connie.
Wolverines. Couple of Wolverines.
Connie here, big Jim Harbaugh fans. Yeah, yeah.
Well, not anymore, I not anymore i guess no so he's gone now so connie and big bo schenbach beckler fans back then i guess i don't know so connie uh here describes mark that's her describing her own brother as a very gentle teddy bear of a guy that's all um connie said her brother and Flo met through and this is weird, met through

Connie's daughter

who was one of Flo's friends.

So I assume

Connie's got to be much older

than her brother

because I think he's the youngest of the family

here so she's got to be much older and have

had a daughter very young for her to be

in the same age bracket as someone

six years younger than Mark.

So that's interesting. So much older and have had a daughter very young for her to be in the same age bracket as someone six years younger than Mark.
So that's interesting. So, yeah, he met his he met this.
He met Flo through his niece, which is very strange, very odd here. So Mark ended up, I guess, graduating from Michigan.
And that's when they began dating, which makes sense because that's when she was old enough to date at that point probably yeah is there six years apart so the whole the timeline of all of this is skewed and i don't know how old he was when how old she was when they met but right i'm not liking that going to college a little bit late or a little bit early i don't know this is interesting yeah i feel like it's good i feel like it's 22 and 16 is what it is and that that creeps me out. So I'm hoping it's not that, but we don't know.

Connie said, went on to say about, about a flow quote.

She was beautiful.

She was charming.

She's fun.

And they seemed very much in love.

Yeah.

So there you go.

They began dating after he graduated and they get married a few years later.

Have a big, beautiful wedding in the middle of a big snowstorm.

Oh.

Which, yeah, everybody said it was just beautiful.

I mean, the pictures through the window look great.

They look great.

And the bride walking out with the white dress with the snow coming down must have been freezing her ass off unless she had a park on.

It's great. You want your wedding pictures to she had a park on.
It's great.

You want your wedding pictures to be with a park on, usually. That's how it works.
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you a little bit about our safest sponsors, Simply Safe.
And everyone has routines that you go through, make you feel good, make you feel secure, like you have control over the world. and a lot of times you don't, but you do if you're us

and it's on your routine includes arming your SimpliSafe home security system. You know that's going to do well for you.
So when we're heading out, both of us, we both have them in our houses, our studios, you lock up for the night. Yeah, this simple step does more than just protect you, gives you peace of mind.
You're going to feel good about leaving and then you're going to know it's going to be the same when you get back. You'll sleep more soundly.
I can leave the house with confidence, and it's amazing how a push of a button can give you that kind of confidence. And with SimpliSafe, we love it.
Like I said, it's in our studios, in our homes. It's really easy to install, too.
You can get professional installation also, but if we can put it up, you can put it up. Put it that way.
Visit simplisafe.com slash small to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simplisafe.com slash small, S-I-M-P-L-I safe.com slash small.
There's no safe like SimpliSafe. And now back to the show.
Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about Chime. Things are expensive.
The world is an expensive place and it only gets more expensive every day. And the last thing you want is a credit card debt hanging over you.
Nobody wants that. It's horrible stuff.
What you can do is enter the Chime Credit Builder Card. This is a secured credit card with no annual fees.
You can build credit with money you set aside and avoid interest or expensive debt. Those terrible, high, awful interest rates that you get on some of those credit cards.
Chasing your tail sometimes. It's what it is.
You'll never get ahead. Plus, you can get access to my payay and get up to $500 of your pay before payday with no mandatory fees.
That's excellent. You got to do it here.
You get a Visa credit card, no annual fees, interest, or credit check. That's good stuff there.
You use it everywhere. Visa cards are accepted, so it's not some special weird card you can't use anywhere.
Turn your everyday purchases into steps toward your financial goals with Chime's secure credit card. Get started today at chime.com slash smalltownmurder.
That's chime.com slash smalltownmurder. Chime.
It feels like progress. The Chime Credit Builder Visa Card is issued by the BankCorp N.A.
or StrideBank N.A. SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply.
Out-of- of network ATM withdrawal and OTC advance fees may apply. Late payment may negatively impact your credit score.
Results may vary. My pay eligibility requirements apply.
Credit limits range from $20 to $500. Go to chime.com slash disclosures for details.
So after Mark graduated from U of M here, he spent a year in California at Pepperdine

University studying advertising. And then he returned to live in Detroit or in the suburbs

there in Huntington Woods and all that kind of thing. So his passion's always sports.
And his

mother said he really wanted to be a sportscaster, which is interesting. By the way, his parents got divorced while he was in college.
Like, if that's not a signal. Once the last kids in college.
We would have done it a while ago. Dude, they wanted to get divorced for 25 years is what that means.
Yeah, we've been sticking it out and faking it, giving you a fraud of a childhood. As soon as he got his TV set up in his dorm room, they were fucking drawing up divorce papers.
Like, well, that's that. We did it.
Raised him up and out. That's time to fucking deal with us now.
That poor bastard's like, everything was a lie. It's all a lie.
And that, I think, has some effect on him, by the way. It's got to.
It has some kind of weird effect on him here. Because you have to know that, oh, God, they've been sitting here waiting me out for years.
That's fucked up. Yeah.
So he ends up getting a job as a sportscaster or on the sports radio type show on W. I can't make this up if I tried WJZZFM WJZZFM.
Everybody's got to hear the hits on WJZZFM. I'll change it a little from Snoops, but it's fine.
There's a KJZZ in Arizona now. Oh, I know, but that was jazz always, right? It's the jazz station.
Yeah, it's obviously jazz. I mean, but no, it's not.
It's K-Jizz. They can call it whatever they want.
This isn't even a jazz station. This is a sports station.
Oh, yeah. What do you do? Calling themselves dubbed jizz.
Like, what the fuck, man? I don't get it. So, yeah, it's defunct nowadays anyway, oh good he works there like as soon as the word jizz half of yeah wonder how that ended up happening yeah wjzz the jizz let us drip down upon you you can call it whatever you want but we're calling it jizz we're calling it the's all it's ever going to be.
Now, while this is going on, she's working in retail at the time, and Mark loved it. This is his lifelong dream, because he figures from this lowly local, this is where you start.
He can move his way up, and eventually he'll be on SportsCenter. You know what I mean? That's the way.
I mean, yeah. Burman had to start somewhere, right? Totally.
That's the way he's looking at it. So he says, quote, I had the greatest job in the world.
This is Mark. I went to every game.
I mean, it was amazing. And she worked at places where she could buy clothes and jewelry and stuff.
I mean, we were very happy. So, yeah, he kind of dismissed her.
It's like she just works. She works to buy jewelry i was going to every every game and shit but every game every game so it's a whatever so they end up having two sons max and tyler one's born in 93 and one's born in 96 at one point i was like i won't put their names in there i was like they're in their 30s It's fine.
Yeah. Whenever someone's like a minor still, I try to keep them out of it.
But I'm like, these people are like, one dude's 32 for Christ's sake. Golly.
You know, that's enough. So, I mean, I feel terrible for the mommy.
Sure. So he said, I knew she'd be an awesome mother and she was.
That's Mark's statement about Flo. So they end up moving back to the Huntington Woods area.
I guess they were living more near the college for a while. They moved back to the Huntington Woods area where they both grew up because they both said, well, we were such a great place to be raised.
Great childhood. Great childhood, so let's raise our kids there as well.
So they bought a house in the, in the area and it's a pricey area. It's a nice area.
Huntington woods, you know? So, uh, he ends up, she becomes a stay at home mom taking care of the kids while they're here and he leaves his job in radio. This is before the station went under and all that.
He actually had the the job but he got a better job as a mortgage broker making more money which he's fucking miserable by the way as you can imagine yeah yeah to go from i go to every game and talk to the athletes party time talk about sports for a living to mortgage brokering which is the most boring fucking thing i can think of this morning? Oh my god. It's not even real estate agent where at least you can go, oh there's a new if you're interested in houses or architecture Yeah, there's a track being sold down the street.
Something. This is just, well, you've decided on it let's do the paperwork.
This is the this is an awful job, man. Yeah.
So he's doing that. Florence is becoming a stay-at-home mom, but they are making more money now and can afford to live in this suburb, and they're going to try to raise the family right here.
Now, 1998 comes along, and Mark suffers a pretty good back injury. Not sure how it happened.
38 years old? But, yeah, he's got a pretty good back injury that he gets to where he has to go to the doctor and, you know, bunch of shit done and everything so he begins they gave him they gave him vicodin for it yeah which in the 90s in the late 90s is when oxy uh oxycontin came out and they were aggressively marketing that shit to doctors like oh my god i've seen these like documentaries on it and things where they're showing the like testimonials from back then saying there is zero percent chance of being addicted to this shit is that right oh absolutely yeah because they say and oxy oh my god they're saying oxy isn't addictive you can prescribe it to anybody it's great prescribe it to kids, old people. It was wild.
If you've had two weeks of, what do they call that, experimental dosing of people, it's 100% addictive. It's very obvious.
Well, that's where the opioid epidemic came from. It exploded after that.
It exploded after that. What the fuck, man? They were and doctors to prescribe this to people and it was and the doctors were going along with it because they're making money so it's it's all it was all kind of together at the time and uh yeah and they seemed like they were believing what the clinical trial what their trials from these people said from the companies but the companies were lying and so that's what ended up happening it was hard so he gets vicodin for this anyway and um he becomes hooked on them as one does he's got concrete shits yeah yep and he hasn't shit in a month and in addition to that he starts because he can't work also because his back's all fucked up so now he's home all the time and he develops alcohol addictions as well.
Really? Because, I mean, a drink and a Vicodin, you're going to feel great. What would be better with it? You're going to feel like fucking soup all day.
You're just going to be like, yeah. So I get it.
And then he starts getting really heavy into gambling as well. Why would he do this at 38?

This is not good.

Yeah, to become a pill addict, alcoholic gambler at 38 is... That's crazy.

Bonkers.

And I get the gambling because he's very into sports.

So maybe that's his way of...

They've been doing that for a while.

Yeah, it's just getting worse now because he's bored.

So now he's got money.

Absolutely.

And after a while, he just stops going to work. And he he's just home he's on pills it's not good oh so yeah florence's has to get a job and take care of the family because otherwise you know it's a mess so mark said it was not only the vicodin the gambling it was my behavior in general you know theness.
That's what he said at one point. They began sleeping in separate bedrooms, the couple, which is never good.
She's grossed out. Yeah.
It's just that. Well, he's just doesn't come to bed or he's passes out at seven 30 from booze and pills all day on the couch wherever he fell asleep.
Kind of. Yeah.
I assume there's a chair here that's getting a lot of use. You know what I mean? It's got a real black spot on it.
Oh, a recliner with a real ass groove here. Oily recliner.
No shit. So in addition to all this, her father, Harold, says that she never liked her married name.
She never liked to be Flo Unger. Yeah.
Yeah. It looks like Flounder.
And it's also, it does look like Flounder. Yeah.
Flounder. It looks like.
So gross. Hello, Flounder.
No, no, it's Flo. It's Flo.
Oh, that's the last name. Okay, I'm so sorry.
But in 98, you were still only about 25 years removed from the odd couple also being like on television. And that's Unger and he's Tony Randall the real persnickety guy and has a negative connotation to it.
Like people say you're a real Felix Unger that's not a compliment you know what I mean? Yikes. So I think that's part of it the dad said she always hated the name Unger and intended to change her name back to Stern.
Yeah. I mean, I love that today, thank God, women can just fucking choose whether or not to take his name.
And it's like, no. I mean, they always could.
It's not insulting anymore. Yeah.
Yeah. People used to freak out.
Yeah. It was a big deal.
But the mother-in-law used to be like, she won't even take his name. Yeah.
Oh, they still, people, you don't know how many people have said to that, have like made a comment about that to Sarah.

It's unbelievable.

Really?

Yeah.

And it's like, why would you want to change your name from a four-letter fucking last name that's a word everyone can spell to Petra Gallo?

Why would you want to do that?

She was like, does that hurt your feelings?

I was like, fuck no.

Are you kidding me?

Why the fuck?

I get it.

I can't.

I'd take Hunt.

Yeah.

I was like, I still want to be a guinea but i you know that's fine but you're why would you want that you don't want you don't take that on purpose that's given to you when you go i'm gonna keep this and call it pride that's what you do you don't fucking do that on purpose it should i mean you should be able to choose whichever one

you enjoy has your name yeah take look at the two unless there's like unless your last name is piss and you're marrying into the shit family yeah at least you don't have one of them's got to be better is the point that's yeah you can pick what you want i don't give a fuck what i mean some people care but i don't care that's between you who cares figure it out amongst yourselves It would never matter.

Who gives a fuck?

So after he, in September of 2002, he decides, Mark decides to try to get his shit together and go to rehab. Okay.
Now he's going to end up, it's like a five month thing he's in rehab for. This is serious.
I mean, it's supposed to be 28 days, isn't it? He's in a lot of trouble. This is Vicodin, booze, and gambling.
So he's getting 28 days for each. He's got like a triad.
And then some more. He's got like a triad of shit he's got to work out here.
It's pretty bad. Wow.
So he's going to be there until February of 2003. Florence, Flo here, not thrilled with the marriage at this point and is telling people that it's kind of beyond repair he says at one point i mean she was not happy and she wasn't afraid to show it he said i was in therapy a therapy appointment with our marriage counselor and uh he said i don't want to tell you exactly what she said um that's between you know, but that's where it happened, and it was painful to hear.
He's embarrassed. Yeah, so she doesn't want anything to do with him at this point anymore.
She was also at that point working as a mortgage loan officer at Royal Oak Bank. That's what she was doing.
Yeah, she was just like, well, I guess I'll fucking write people's loans then. Whatever.
Someone's got to write goddamn mortgages in this house to stay afloat. I'll do it.
Yeah. So people that know Flo know that she has actually been thinking about divorcing him for six or seven years now.
Since before the injury, before the Vicodin, before any of that shit. It's been a while.
It's been a while. Her friend said that she said they had lacked just things in common, common interests, and there's a lot of lies in the marriage, she said, too, and she wouldn't really elaborate, but she would say there's a lot of lies.
We'll come up. We'll uncover a few of them here.
But we have three of them. Some of them are hers, too, though.
That's the thing we'll talk about. Yeah.
So he gets out of february 2003 and then august 26 2003 flow files for divorce okay flow gets her file on here uh now mark fights against it he's not just saying great let's get divorced he's saying i don't want to no he says they can reconcile we can figure it out he doesn't know the whole here, though. So she asks for a court order freezing their assets at the time.
But friends say Mark kept hoping that he and Flo would stay together. A friend of theirs said, quote, Mark told her he was going to get custody of the children.
He was going to get the house. She would get no child support and little alimony.
So she felt very threatened. And one of her relatives said, she told me that she would live in a box before she let the kids go.
And another friend said that she said, I don't want to have to do it, but if he tries to take the kids from me and the house, I'm going to have to get nasty about the divorce. Yikes.
Which, yeah, I'm going to have to bring up that he's an alcoholic and a gambler and he did this. In any marriage that's been together for over 13 years or something they've been married, there's plenty of dirt that you could all fling at each other.
Oh, boy. Everybody's got mud.
There's baggage. Yeah, a 13-year relationship of every kind.
You could bring up a few occasions where that person did not act in the best, most fucking— Either side, yeah. For anybody, that's what I mean.
Just a human being is interacting is how it is. So Tuesday, October 21st, 2003.
Okay, there is a divorce hearing. So this is one of the initial hearings.
As you know, this takes many, many times of going to court. Boy, oh boy.
For a long time. Each one costs a little bit more.
It is a little more in both money and your soul. Just chipping away at it all.
Like an ice sculpture. Making an ice sculpture of an angry person.
So, Flo insisted she would fight to keep the boys. Mark had begged her not to.
She demanded the release of all the records of Mark's gambling debts and drug addictions to be put into the case. And he obviously said, no, I don't want that.
I object? Not good good so obviously they still live together so they're literally driving together to the court to go into court sit at separate tables and argue and then drive back to the same house together nothing better than your own space to decompress after this shit you need this you gotta say out loud can you believe the bitch wants my gambling

in this this asshole that yeah you want that yeah so no they're still at home flow said to a bunch of friends this was like the worst week of her life just so stressful it's horrifying her friend susan said she said i don't want to talk about it in detail but i was very upset and she also said quote, I've been crying on the bathroom floor

for the past two nights.

That's not good.

That's not good. That's not good.
Her friend said she said they'd been, you know, warring all week. Then there's a guy named Glenn Stark, just like the guy who started the lumber mill.
Stark. Glenn Stark.
Now, he is Mark's best friend. And he's got some more role in this we'll talk about.
But he's Mark's best friend. And Glenn said she said Mark had become increasingly erratic and unpredictable and withdrawn.
And Flo also told Glenn Stark that she had spent that whole week locked in the bathroom crying. And Glenn said she said he was exhibiting Dr.
Jekyll and Mr. Hyde behavior.

Okay, maybe he's –

Just, you know, at the turn of a fucking switch, he's a different person and now he's mean.

This is also tough because you're getting a guy straight out of rehab.

Yeah.

And then springing life-changing shit on him.

This might trigger him to go back, which might look like Jekyll and Hyde shit. That, too.
If he's using here and there. If he's grabbing a fucking bottle here and there or some pills or something.
Yeah, trying to tolerate this shit. You never know.
And that's true, too. A major life change like that right after getting out of five months of rehab is a...
That's crazy. That's a wild break, yeah.
I think when you get out of rehab, they tell you, don't change anything for a while a while. Don't get a divorce.
No. If you smoke cigarettes, keep smoking them.
If you fucking eat candy, keep eating it. Just drink twice as much.
Just don't do drugs. So now Mark described Glenn Stark as his best friend.
As a matter of fact, the night before the divorce hearing, Glenn spent the night at their house. He over that night i don't know why adults are sleeping at other adults houses but that's fine now the thing is stark has way more involvement in this than just being mark's best friend he's also been having a secret affair with flow for the last two years glenn glenn you are scumbag mark you're a tool but glenn you're a fucking scumbag yeah that's not cool at all really fucked up that's you can't you can't fuck your best friend's wife nope i think that's that's like rule one right yeah that's rule one i think it's a commandment for christ's sake guess what i will never do i'll never fuck the girl that you love that's one of the few rules that's like a social rule and a commandment all in one it's all bad i think it's so much of a rule you don't even gotta say it you don't have to say you just go you scumbag so hey you're my best friend you're probably not gonna fuck my wife right yeah you're right totally i'd be the last guy to fuck your wife probably that's to do.
Glenn forgot. Yeah.
Your best friend should be trying to get other people to not try to fuck your wife, even. Like, you know, to help you.
That was real for Glennful. Jesus.
Yeah, this has been going on for two years. Oh, my God.
Were they- Ongoing. Started out with a big email exchange back and forth, and they ended up having sex four or five times over this period the last time they had sex up till this point was about a few days before the divorce hearing while he was in rehab well while he was still there no this was while he was in rehab that happened too but the last time they hooked up was just like a few days before this divorce hearing, which is six months after he got out of rehab.
So, yeah, he used to be their neighbor. And he said they were having what he called a discreet affair, exchanging intimate emails for two years, which is a new thing in the late 90s you could do.
Have an email affair. And, you know, having sex a few times there, four or five times.
Now, we don't think Mark knew about the affair. No? Well, the fact that he invited Glenn to stay at his house the night before the divorce proceedings makes me think he probably doesn't know about the affair.
Just, you know what I mean? I don't think he knows. I can't imagine he does.
So, and they asked Stark later on, Glenn, about this. And Glenn Stark said, I asked Mark if he was uncomfortable with me being there, I guess because they were fighting.
And if he preferred that I stayed somewhere else. And he replied that, no, he wasn't angry with me being there.
I wasn't the one who was divorcing him. So, I don't think he knows about this affair at all.
No certainly helping contribute to it man yeah but it's also mark has no fucking idea this is going on wow so the day after the hearing this is a wednesday uh october 22nd of 2003 a neighbor found flo kneeling in her garden crying oh boy which is sad um this is ronald lobe he said quote i said hi flow how are you what a dumb question i'm kneeling in a garden crying how do you think i am great hi flow how are you how are you clearly one of the worst days of my life you fucking insensitive cunt how often do you cry in your yard is my response if i'm her yeah i'm in public this is this is wild uh flo how are you and she looked up at me and she was crying and she said not very well obviously she has to say should have followed it up with obviously dick dickhead. Just don't even say a word.
Look at a man crying. If he has any sense of anything, he'll be like, oh.
Are you okay? Can I help? Are you okay? Are you okay is all right. Are you okay? Are you bleeding? Yeah.
Well, is this the beginning, middle, or end of this crying fit? Are you okay? How close to the dead are you? Yeah. Well, that means like are you coming down? Are coming down you're gonna be all right in a minute you can talk about it do you need a minute to just cry it out do you have to like hug somebody and punch them on the shoulder like what do you got what do you need you're kneeling did you twist a knee yeah an ankle do you need a hand is this an injury or is this is this internal or external let me know please i have band-aids and booze.
I don't know which one to give you.

So he said she told me that they were going up north and that she did not want to go and that she was afraid to go up north.

Now, what he did is it's October 24th is a Friday of 2003.

He made reservations to go up to the Watervale Inn because they go up every single year their whole relationship it's a tradition they go up there they stay in the cottages that we talked about see why people go why do they put that review in there gee i wonder why because i'm telling you this is why now i don't have to explain water veil in the middle of a fucking murder investigation so or in the middle of a murder story. So yeah, they're going up.
They stay in one

of these cottages. They do it every year.
They bring

the kids up there.

They drink wine. The kids watch movies.

It's that kind of deal here.

So they're going to head up there on this Friday.

Claire Stern, who is Flo's

mom, said the day before leaving

for the resort, her daughter told her

that Mark had threatened to take the house

and the kids and give her $1,000 a month.

So that's what she was telling her Thank you. for the resort.
Her daughter told her that Mark had threatened to take the house and the kids and give her $1,000 a month.

So that's what she was telling her about.

What year was that? 2003.

Pretty weak.

Yeah, well, yeah, take the house and the kids.

Well, I mean, yeah, I don't know.

Obviously, they're going back and forth

threatening each other here. So they stay at the

Watervale Inn, which is on Herring Lake.

And Flo told a few people that she had some issues about going. And even Mark said, I'm sure she had reservations about going.
I had reservations about going, you know, but we were dedicated to the kids. So that's how it is.
He said things seemed fine when they got in the car to drive up there. They listened to music and it's a fourhour drive.
So if there's a lot of beef, it's going to come out in a four-hour drive. But these two, I don't know.
I think maybe these two have kind of trained themselves to be in a completely different mode around the kids. Maybe.
As some people do. There are oftentimes in couples that one of them is real good at at just fucking disconnecting not giving a shit about it yeah well the other one internally stews so they might be just doing that yeah that could be what's happened or like i said they could be trying to put a good face on it or they could be just you know who knows so i'm really good at disconnecting whenever we're fighting i'm just like you know i mean if i'm in a relationship and i'm fighting i'm just i could just give two fucks i can ignore that person and act like this house and room is empty that's fine i'm terrible at that i can't do that i'm not a good fucking ignore you like i'm not a good ignore we're gonna fucking clear this up we're gonna clear this up or not clear it up but we're not gonna let it linger yeah yeah yeah i mean i think i think when i'm at that point my my goal is to not clear it up and just hope you disappear yeah yeah yeah that's uh very unhealthy i think is what a therapist would tell you i'll be bringing that up to my therapist i think you've probably had that one talked about a couple of times probably it's getting re getting reestablished real quick here.
I promise you that.

So, yeah, they're in the car.

They're doing this.

Mark said the colors were pretty to look at on the way up because it's October driving through the woods in Michigan.

So beautiful.

Awesome.

He said the kids were having a ball.

It couldn't have been better.

They went to dinner at a local restaurant called I Hope It's Dingy's and Not Dingy's.

It's dingy. I Hope It's Dingy's.
it's still gross it's still yeah dinghies sounds disgusting uh then they went back to their cottage after a dinner at dinghies yeah which is weird because the inn has dinner right so I don't know if they just wanted to have maybe it's a maybe it's fancier and the kids they want to just get them some something. Maybe Dingy's is just like fish and chips and it's real lakefront shit.

Yeah, yeah.

Maybe they got that kind of shit.

There's beer there rather than wine.

Yes.

Yes, only beer.

No wine.

Yeah, we got wine.

We got white and red.

Which one do you want?

It's the big bottle of each back there.

The red just has food coloring.

That's what we got red.

It's just white Carlo Rossi with food coloring in it. The gallon.
Why is this red sparkling? Shut up and drink it. Shut up, it's fine.
So what? It's got fucking strawberry Kool-Aid in it. Relax.
If you shake it, it stops sparkling. It's pretty good.
So they stay at one of the cottages called the Mary Ellen. That's the cottage.
So all the cottages have names. Like boats, yeah.
Like boats. And it's just a few hundred yards from the lake, and it's idyllic.
You know, it's idyllic. It's a nice place.
And that was a favorite spot for people to go would be to have a glass of wine and watch the evening sunsets on the boat deck, which is also there. Oh, fuck.
It faces the sunset. Yeah, and by the way, being late October in Michigan, this place does not have as many people as it would be here in mid-August.
Yeah, water's too cold. Water's too cold.
This is definitely a different type of people. The boat deck isn't crowded with people at the end of the night.
You want to go have a glass of wine. Sweaters and jeans on the lake.
That's great. Fucking hoodie on the lake.
Shit. Yeah.
A hoodie and some wine on the lake. That sounds amazing.
Forget it. I have no interest in being wet.
Nope. I want to be dry and cold.
I love it. Dry, chilly, something nice in my hand to drink and eat, and I'm a happy fucking guy.
Smoke a joint out there. I'll be a real ...
I'm thrilled. So the boys settle in to watch a movie.
They put a movie on for the kids in the... because they're like 10 and 7.
So if you have a small little cottage, you can throw a movie on and they'll be alright for a couple hours. They won't kill each other.
It's Cars. Cars are one of the toy stories.
I think two just came out a year before, I think. So they sit to watch a movie and Mark and Flo went down to the boat deck to have adult talk.
So you don't have to sit there with fucking Pixar voices blasting in the background while you're trying to have serious conversation. Let's be uncomfortable without Tom Hanks.
Yeah. We don't need Tim Allen here for this, okay? We just don't.
so Flo and Mark sitting on the boat deck and the boat deck

is attached to the resort proper. There's a big building with the suites inside of it with the shared bathrooms.
And so you walk from your cottage up to that to sit on the boat deck. So they're up there.
It's, you know, late evening, 8, 9 o'clock. about 9 p.m.
a fisherman named Fred Oeflin, O-E-F is the way his name starts. That's tough.
Oeflin, he landed his boat in it's dark and he landed it right there at the, you know, at the shore. and he speaks to Florence and Mark and he gets out of the boat

and he talks to them for a little while

for some reason

I see a couple enjoying a private moment

let me row up and talk to them let me go bother them like the fuck man i would love guy yeah we'd see it yeah you see two people in the dark with glasses of wine you're gonna not go up to them right i don't know if they don't have a boat i might feeled them. I guess.
It's just a motor, but it's not even a big boat, though. Oh, really? It's just a fucking, like, a motor, like an outboard.
Yeah. Like a little bass fishing boat, basically.
Like, one of those. Yeah, my Evinrude's still more expensive than your fucking wine.
So he hung out with them for a little while, Fred, and talked to them, and then he left in his motorboat. They did have a conversation with him.
He said it was pitch black outside, Fred says. And he told the Ungers that he was about to take his boat across the lake.
And this is the middle of nowhere. It's fucking black as night, as literally.
So I guess he said, quote, she mentioned she wouldn't like to be out on the lake. She said, I'm afraid of the dark.
I wouldn't go out on that lake this late. I'm afraid of the dark, she said.
And the water looks black in the middle of the night. It's so scary.
If it's choppy, too, that's terrifying. So nobody, as Fred said, he didn't hear any arguing amongst the couple of Mark and Flo.

He didn't hear anything suspicious, anything like that.

Imagine this.

You help your little brother land a great job abroad.

But when he arrives, the job doesn't exist.

Instead, he's trapped in a heavily guarded compound, forced to sit at a computer and scam innocent victims.

All while armed guards stand by with shoot-to-kill orders. Scam Factory, the explosive new true crime podcast from Wondery, exposes a multi-billion dollar criminal empire operating in plain sight.
Told through one family's harrowing account of sleepless nights, desperate phone calls, and dangerous rescue attempts, Scam Factory reveals a brutal truth. The only way out is to

scam their way out. Follow Scam Factory on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can binge all episodes of Scam Factory early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. In the early hours of December 4th, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan.
This assailant pulls out a weapon and starts firing at him. We're talking about the CEO of the biggest private health insurance corporation in the world.
And the suspect. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione.
Became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history. I was targeted, premeditated, and meant to sow terror.
I'm Jesse Weber, host of Luigi, produced by Law and Crime and Twist. This is more than a true crime investigation.
We explore a uniquely American moment that could change the country forever. He's awoken the people to a true issue.
Hurry, Luigi! Hurry! Finally, maybe this would lead rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our healthcare system. Listen to Law and Crime's Luigi exclusively on Wondery Plus.
You can join

Wondery Plus on the Wondery app, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. In the early hours of December 4th,

2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan. This assailant

starts firing at him. And the suspect.
He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione. Became one

of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history. I was meant to sow terror.
He's a woken

Thank you. And the suspect...
He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione. ...became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history.
I was meant to sow terror. He's awoken the people to a true issue.
Listen to Law & Crimes Luigi exclusively on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts.
And here her relatives back her up. Her sister, I believe, said she was afraid of the dark.
And another relative said she was very afraid of the dark. I reiterate what they say in that very.
She's actually afraid of the dark, I think. Yeah.
Flo's father, Harold, said that she has been afraid of the dark for as long as he could remember. He said, quote, when she was a little child, she said, hold me, Daddy.
I'm scared of the dark. And now, 30 years later, still scared of the dark.
So that's the way it is. dark so that's the way it is same way right now yeah it happens i can't get her to take the fucking trash out at night outside in the backyard man on the lights out there you have tons of lights out there it's bright as day out there i don't know just like flick the goddamn light switch on that's i told turn the light on yeah but everywhere else is dark well yeah it's night don't look there look where you can see which is right to the garbage can throw it i'm not asking you to go exploring back there and find a lost civilization just fucking owls or coyotes in the backyard and that's the only thing that could get you here and an owl isn't going to get you.
You're much bigger than one, I promise.

Yeah, they're terrifying.

You could probably punch it and kill it.

Oh, yeah.

It's not going to want any piece of you.

She's out of her mind.

That's funny.

So 9.30 p.m. here, Mark says he walks back to the couple's cottage,

which is about 100 yards away, to put Max and Tyler to bed. Okay.
So there we go. They can't even stay up late on vacation.
Rough. No.
Rough. So he said, quote, Flo was very comfortable on that deck.
She wasn't ready to come in yet, I guess. So that's why he did it.
So he said he spent about 15 minutes with the boys, and when he went back to the boat deck, Flo was gone. Really? Couldn't find her now.
He walked 100 yards, sat 15 minutes, walked 100 yards, and she's gone. So he saw a light on at Maggie and Lynn Duncan's house, who are one of the property owners here.
I assume these are the people who aren't nice. They're not very nice.
Not very nice, that guy said. And she figured, or he said he figured that she was there.
So she probably, because they know these people, because they've gone there a bunch of times. So she's...
Maggie's, all right, I'm going back in with the boys. So he's like, all right, she probably went over there.
The light's on. That's the only thing that would make sense.
So he said he didn't go over there and look. He just figured she was there.
She probably is already saying negative things about me. I don't want to show my face where they already hate me.
He literally said he thought maybe she needed some privacy with him. Maybe she was talking shit about him.
So he then said, you know, he said that she must have visited the neighbor. I don't know.
And even he said, quote, this is Mark. It wasn't anything earth shattering that made me not go up there to the neighbor's house.
I just thought about it and said, oh, she's up there. She's fine.
And I went back to the cottage. So he said he went back to the cottage, put a movie on and fell asleep.
So he woke up right about daybreak the next morning and noticed she wasn't there. Still no flow.
No flow. I got no flow.
So he called up Lynn and Maggie Duncan and said, you know, hey, what up with flow? Did you see her? Yeah, why'd she stay there? Now, the Duncan said, this is their accounting of that. They said that he said, quote, this is Mark.
Flow hasn't come home all night. And they said that he said this through sobs.
He was sobbing on the phone. So Lynn Duncan told Unger he and his wife would look for her.

He said, well, we can go out and help you look for her.

Duncan said, quote, I thought, why the hell would he be crying and not looking for her himself?

Which is a good question and also why people say you're not very nice on a review maybe.

That's a little too direct for some people.

You know what I mean?

You're not willing to help out you you rude dicks i'll

help you but jesus christ i can't find his what the woman that's gonna leave him so um he the the guy said mark told him quote this is this is the owner talking about mark he said he was going to check around the inn to see if she had taken another room He didn't explain that to us.

He had indicated that she might be suicidal.

Oh.

Yeah. said he was going to check around the inn to see if she had taken another room.
He didn't explain that to us.

He had indicated that she might be suicidal. Oh.
Yeah. So Lynn, the way he described the call, he said it just sounded like somebody in tears saying, this is Mark and my wife hasn't come home all night.
Okay. So they're like, all right, well, where the fuck is she? so they look here out the door, Maggie and Lynn, Margaret and Lynn, and they look out the door.
They stood in their living room and looked at the deck through their sliding glass doors. And Maggie Duncan noticed that one of the wooden lounge chairs on the deck had been moved from one corner of the deck to another corner of the deck.
Yeah, that's obvious. So they were like, that's interesting.
Yeah. So they got dressed and walked out toward the chair to see what was going on there.
So they're going to look and they go their separate ways. Mark says he's going to go look over here.
They're going to go look out on the deck and wherever they're going to look. So they walk out there.
This is Lynn Duncan and Maggie Duncan.

Maggie gets there first.

She peeks over the edge of the deck.

Now, the deck here, the way it goes is there's a deck, and then there's a concrete landing below the deck, like another sidewalk.

And then there's the water.

There's the lake right there.

So that's the way it goes. She said she peeked over the edge maggie did and she saw florence oh bobbing in the water oh no not good yeah uh so this is and the concrete's 12 feet below the deck 12 feet 12 feet of drop concrete slab then the water so she said that her feet were closest to a concrete breaker wall and her head pointed toward the center of the lake.
And she is on her face, you know, bobbing up and down in the, you know, like a dead man float. Not good.
So Lynn Duncan, the husband here, said that he was not far behind. He said he saw the body in the water and picked up the blue blanket

that Flo had had with her

that was on the deck.

Oh, no.

And moved it.

I guess the blanket was on the cement slab

below the deck down there.

So he picked it up and moved it.

He said when he picked it up,

there was a puddle of blood under it.

Oh.

He was like, oh, shit.

What the hell?

Yeah, he just saw, I'll pick this garbage up before it blows into the lake. And instead, there's a puddle of blood under it oh he's like oh shit what the hell yeah he just saw pick this garbage up before it blows into the lake and instead there's a puddle of blood on it so he ran uh over to the cottage the mary ellen where the ungars are staying here and about halfway there he runs into mark yeah okay and um he said that um now duncan is crying at this point.
You know. Nobody wants to see that.
He touched Mark's chest and said, Mark, you're not going to like it. She's in the water.
Yeah. And he said that Mark screamed and took off running directly to where the body was in the lake.
Why did he know that? Yeah, he jumped in the water.

Oh, no.

Mark does.

Duncan waded in, followed him, but walking.

He said the two men hugged and cried together

at the lake's edge, just sitting there,

you know, having a good cry.

Fuck dignity.

Fuck that.

Now, the police arrived,

and the Duncans leave the resort

after they give their statement. They take off.
Like, I don't really want to be here yeah you know this for now i don't want to be here during corpse season it's not as good it's not as fun musky's better man um so lynn duncan here the husband said i looked down there and i could see her in the water and after just after a minute or so i started to cry my first reaction was suicide really yeah um that's right and lynn said we have memories there that'll never disappear never um and maggie duncan said i'll carry that to my grave finding this poor dead woman here so maggie calls 9-1-1 and they answer the phone and she says they say you know 9, 911. She says, yeah, I'm pretty upset.
That's how she leads it. Yeah, yes.
Can you talk for a minute? Yeah, I'm pretty upset. Why is that? Well, I got the final Jeopardy wrong tonight, and I was beating my husband until that came up.
Well, there's that, and then this other part where my memories of this lake are fucking ruined. Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah, there's a corpse in the water. That's what I was trying to tell you.
She sounds nice as shit. Somebody's an asshole on the reviews.
That's what I'm saying. She's calling 911 for Christ's sake.
These people are decent, it sounds like. So, yeah, she said, I'm pretty upset.
They said, okay, well, what's your name? You know, let's start there. She says, Maggie Duncan spells it out.
She said, I believe there is a suicide or a drowning or something is what she said. So that's what she says on 9-1-1.
Now here is Mark as he ran into the water his statement about this. He said I picked her up and put my arms underneath her and just lifted her up and there was blood just started coming out and I just freaked and I just about dropped her.
All right. And I just dropped her.
I mean, I'm in the water with my wife. Who's just cold and bloody.
And he said, I, he said, I wasn't thinking my whole life just ended right then. I wasn't thinking about anything.
My whole world had ended right there. So like we said, the blanket now, that blue blanket that covered a blood puddle here, Mark tells at least one person in the days following this that he had retrieved the blanket after Duncan had already found the body in order to keep her warm.
So he said, I grabbed the blanket to keep her warm, which makes no sense because she's dead. And he didn't find the blanket or touch it.
Duncan did. So it makes no sense why he would lie about that.
Not sure. Yeah.
So Lynn, the one that called the police, the husband, or as his wife called the police, he ended up, like I said, telling Mark. and they had a good cry on the shoulder there.

Lynn said, my first reaction, you think the best of the worst.

But for him to go like that, well, you start to think other things.

I'm not going to say what I think, but you come up with a conclusion and it's not pleasant.

So that is some Midwestern shit right there.

Listen, I pretty much thought this guy killed his wife, but, you's not nice to say that so you get it so he said that he had the the thing that kept bothering him is he hadn't told mark where the body was found right he said why would he run there lynn said he jumped in the water right next to her and at that moment i looked around and said to myself my god he did it what how else would he know that is wild that is a fascinating he's right out of the gate he's like my god that man did it there's a big ass lake and he jumped right in the spot he knew exactly where in lake fucking you Yeah, it's crazy. Or Lake Herring or whatever the hell it is.
Yeah. So the police arrive, obviously.
Deputy Troy Packard responds. And he said, well, all that's reported to me is there's a body in the water.
And you're thinking, was it an accident? Was it a suicide? Was it murder? You know, he goes, I don't know what the hell I'm walking into walking into here he's the first officer he said he sensed something was off the minute he looked over the

boat deck railing yeah he said i noticed the top railing was broken fractured out okay so like the

you know the railing that keeps you on there they're wooden on these boat decks apparently

it was busted out he said next i noticed a rather large pool of blood. And he said that he calls 911, okay? Because cops, I guess, they'll call 911 to, I don't know if they have radios.
They don't have radios on them or something, I don't think, that go back to the police station. Maybe.
There's only 500 people here. That's what I mean.
So he calls 911 and said, better call out the troops on this one. And the operator says, oh, yeah? And he said, yeah, I got blood.
And the operator says, oh, Jesus, are you kidding? No. No, I'm pretty upset.
Cop calling 911 for backup, you fucking idiot. No, I'm not kidding.
He said, no, I'm not kidding. There's blood on the cement platform, and now she's in the water.

And the operator said, oh, God.

I want less of a shocked reaction from my 911 operators, by the way.

Right?

I don't want to ever hear them go, oh, God, ever.

No matter what it is, they go, okay.

Stay calm.

You're the calm one.

All right, I'll put it in the report. Wow.
Oh, God. Oh, God.
Jesus, that's following, oh, Jesus, are you kidding, which is even worse. So the cop responds, so how did the blood get from the cement platform before she got in the water, you know? That's what he said on the tape.
So investigators obviously start with the boathouse and they comb the whole scene and it's a murder investigation, you know? It's one of those things. Or a death investigation, I should say.
On the upper wooden, on a wooden upper deck, a post was broken and that was how the railing got broken. And then 12 feet below that that on the platform is a blood stain below that and shallow water is Flo's body so bink bink bink the cop also said Mark Unger seemed evasive he said he just kept on saying I don't know and I asked him well when was the last time you've seen Florence alive I don't know every question's I don't know he also watched Mark make a series of cell phone calls he said he was frequently interrupted by call waiting and he said quote he would click over he would answer it and then he would start trying to cry and moan she's gone I can't believe it in this great emotion and then he'd go back to the other person and he was all calm and fine again because he had already he did it he already went through all of that yeah with that person so he said it just didn't seem right for someone to be able to turn that on and off like that is wild so a few hours i mean this is a you know it's going on past midnight they're going into the scene just a few hours after this discovery of flow's body mark already had the family car packed up and ready to go.
He's ready to go home. He's ready to go.
Well, weekend's about over. Jesus.
Dingy serves a hell of a late night meal. Let me tell you something.
So he said that Mark just kept repeating, I just want to leave. I just want to leave.
I just want to leave. So the deputy said, I found it peculiar because that's all he was saying.
He just wanted to leave. And here's Florence still lying face down in the water.
You know, like, wouldn't you want to see how this works out at least a little bit? Yeah, but I guess these guys aren't going through a divorce. Yeah, but fucking that's crazy.
So they noticed that he had packed his vehicle and seemed eager to leave. So they obtained a search warrant quickly to search his vehicle and the interior of the cottage that he was in.
So they recover among a bunch of things. But the main thing they find that's a little suspicious is they recover a pair of men's shoes from the vehicle on one of the shoes is a white paint smear.
Yeah. And they said the white paint ends up being tested and is found to be chemically consistent with the white paint on the railing of the boathouse deck.
So he got white paint from the boathouse deck on his shoe. That takes some torque.
Exactly. That doesn't happen if you just accidentally rub it on there.
If it's dry, that doesn't just get on there.

Yeah. So that night, by the next evening, Mark's under a big cloud of suspicion, and the police have given Flo's parents temporary custody of the boys.
Yeah, that's where we're at. His children have been removed from him.
Yes, and that's what he was trying to avoid, I think, which is interesting. so they said that when they questioned Unger

it appeared that he would suddenly try to cry and then change his demeanor even when he was talking to the cops he does this all the time the one cop said that mark told him that he did not think his wife had committed suicide and then he did not try to lift her out of the water because she was quote all bloody interesting now enter the hairdresser okay the new character into this thing here this is where are they at flow's hairdresser for years back in town yeah she said that um i told that he had told the police and most of his friends when he returned from all of this because he calls everybody and says, hey, Flo's dead. So they all go, what happened? And he tells them.
He tells the hairdresser or he tells most everybody else that he went back. Like we said, he went back, put the kids to bed, came back 15 minutes later, she's gone.
He told the hairdresser, though, that he put the children in bed and had returned to the deck and she was there on the deck. And then he told her that Florence was still there.
She was fine. So I just went back up to the house and she never came home.
So that's very different stories that he's telling people. Yeah.
There. And that could be a confusion on the hairdresser's part.
Who knows? hairdresser Tesha Hanks of Palazzo Hair Salon.

You know, in Royal Oak over here. Big hair.
Oh, you know it. You fucking know.
Been her hairdresser for 10 years. Knows how to fucking tease your hair out here.
So she said that a friend had told her that Florence was dead, so she called Florence's phone to find out if it was true. And Mark answered the phone and gave her an account that wasn't the same account he told the police.
Oh, that's like I said. He said he told the he told everyone, including the cops.
He went back to the boathouse, came back. She went back to the cottage, came back.
She was gone. Yeah.
He told her I went back, came back. She was there.
And I said good night and walked away and then she was gone so very different story so they have a funeral for her um hundreds of people attend she's very well liked and you know i guess if you're working like a bank doing mortgage stuff you probably know a lot of people too yeah and if you know a lot of people and you're tragically killed a lot of people will show show up. Yes.
Fuck yeah. It's like a really, this is a shitty reason to die.
Like a lot of people, yeah. And she grew up here too.
You died in a car accident and you did it. Maybe your family will be there.
You're a drunk driver and took out an eight-year-old on a bicycle on the way through. I don't think many people are showing up for that.
Not many. Not many.
So, yeah, this though, and it's her hometown too. And so, I mean mean she's grew up there and everything now um within days of this death there's the funeral and then mark he hasn't been charged with anything they've just asked him a couple questions he hires a big time defense attorney now really yeah a guy named bob harrison who's handled over 100 murder cases Have they said what her injuries are? We'll get to that in about two seconds here.
Yeah, because they're going through all that because they really have to – the medical exam takes a few days on her. There's a lot to – the water fucks things up too, so it's tough.
Bob Harrison, defense attorney, said, quote, I had a client in a world of trouble.

And he said, well, whether it's going to be good enough or not, you'll get everything I've got. That's what he sets him as a lawyer.
I'll throw it on the table for you. I'll give you everything I got.
Now, Mark and his lawyer decide to set up a polygraph test. now this polygraph test is not set up is not a police it's not at the police station with a police

officer to set up a polygraph test. Now, this polygraph test is not set up.

It's not at the police station with a police officer doing the polygraph test.

Now, this is a private polygraph test he's going to take.

This is a controlled environment where you can be very calm.

The polygrapher, I was going to say.

Is that a polygraph?

Polygrapher.

Polygrapher, I guess.

Polygrapher sounds like he's got five wives, doesn't it?

It doesn't sound right. Yeah, sounds like he's got five children.
Sounds weird. So the polygrapher is a they call a respected retired policeman.
So a random polygrapher in there. So this is a private polygraph test, which means nothing because he could have taken it 20 times.
There's no they don't have to tell the cops that, oh, here's the results after 20 times. They could stop and get him a glass of water.
They could do a lot of different things to calm him down. Totally.
So they said he passed that lie detector test with flying colors. Absolutely.
Because it was paid by you. You paid a guy, yeah.
You're not going to cut him a check after he says you're a fucking liar well never mind then maybe i won't pay you yeah i don't even want this pizza no i think you need kind of a third party who's not what doesn't work for either person would probably be the best way to do that so medical opinions here here we go doctor who performed flo's autopsy catalogued her Many bruises. Broken hip.
Internal injuries.

Fractured skull.

Yeah. They think she pretty much fell on her head off of the dock onto the concrete.
Yeah, head, hip, exactly. Yeah, that's what they think.
She fell kind of on both. Slumped in, yeah.
So he says she became unconscious the second she hit the concrete because her skull is fractured here. Now, another medical examiner here, an Oakland County medical examiner, after reviewing the case, he concluded Florence died of drowning and classified her death as homicide.
Now, the way he puts this, it's weird because they don't know whether it's drowning, whether it's her injuries, what it is. But he said bodies do not walk into the water and bodies do not bounce.
That's what he said. He said there is no possibility for her to take herself into the water.
You can't hit the ground, fracture your skull and hip, and then throw yourself off the fucking shore into the water

so she slumped onto that concrete and then somebody kicked her ass off into the water

unconscious so she oh my god yeah he said that uh she would have been injured so badly by the

impact that uh to her head that she would have been rendered instantaneously unconscious

no way to get into the water from that so they they said, quote, the dead woman had plunged 12 feet to a concrete apron, which was stained with blood, yet somehow had moved over a break wall nearly three feet away and wound up in the water. Holy.
Unlikely, basically. And the one doctor said, I have a hard time understanding how she got in the water and was emphatic that Flo was immobile on the cement where she was placed in the water and drowned.
OK. Yeah.
So there is a prosecutor here that asked doctor, based on these injuries and based on the physical condition that she would have had as a result of these injuries, would she have been capable of getting into the water on her own? And he said, absolutely not. And he said, the doctor said she didn't go into the water.
Being unconscious, she could have only been placed into the water. You can't go into the water if you're unconscious.
Another doctor here, Paul McKeever of the University of Michigan, looked at the samples of Flo's brain tissue, performed several tests, and said one showed proof of a brain injury that could only have appeared if Flo had been alive on the cement a very long time. So fell on there and then, you know, the brain was dying or whatever.
This doctor said an hour and a half. She would have been alive for an hour and a half.
Okay. And that's what they're saying.
So they said, and if she was not capable of getting into the water on her own power somebody must have put her into the water and they had a long time to think about it before they did it yeah they said it's late october there's nobody out but them okay and it's late getting late at night you know so yeah it's what i think a lot of people here get up early to get out on the lake and shit like that if they're going to do anything. Medical witnesses said that they did.
The problem is they have different medical examiners who don't agree on the exact cause of her death. That's the problem.
What the fuck? They all agree there's no way she could have gotten to the water on her own if she hit the concrete first. That they agree on.
But some people say it was brain injuries and some people say it was drowning. And it doesn't uh if the if the drowning thing was the cause or not because somebody still put her over there whether or not she drowned exactly here or there because she didn't just fall is that yep and that's the district attorney's uh his stance here is no matter what the fuck caused it, she didn't do it on her own.

Right. That would have been impossible.
By the way, it's Lower Herring Lake is the lake that she's in, just to be clear here. So after two days, the preliminary exam was postponed and the medical examiners said that Florence's death was a homicide, not an accident.
But like I said, one said drama, one said drowning. So now his lawyer is going to ask a judge later on to throw out one of the conclusions, which is the critical evidence that prosecutors need to prove her death was murder, basically.
So they want that thrown out. And he'll get it thrown out for a minute, too, but then it'll come back in.
He said the defense says that the Dragovich, he's the guy who says she drowned, said that his statement was neither generally accepted in the relative relevant scientific community or forensic pathologist, nor was it based on vetted research. And they told this medical examiner about that.
They said, what do you say about this? And he he said no judicial ruling can change the facts doesn't matter what you rule this is what happened yeah you know you could make a law that says there's no gravity but you're still going to stand on the ground you're going to write that sitting at a table yeah and put a pencil down and it won't float away there's a reason for that yeah so they said that the Ungers, now they also find out that the Ungers had a life insurance policies naming each other as beneficiaries and that Mark stood to collect about $750,000 from this death as well. Wow.
That's a good chunk. So, months pass.
Nothing happens. It seems stalled.
They don't charge Mark with anything. And at this point, he's fighting to get custody of his sons back.
That's what he wants. He's ignoring the other thing, and Flo's parents don't want to give it to him because they think he killed their daughter.
So, makes sense. Claire, Florence's mother, said, this is not about the custody of children.
This is about a murder investigation. Finish the murder investigation, and then we'll fucking talk about it.
The judge refuses to give him custody. He refused because he was suspected in the death.
I guess it was a, they called it a, by the way, he, the judge chastised attorneys for both sides for their increasingly contentious and emotional public battle. By the way, that's hilarious.
You two are both embarrassing. I just want to let you know.
Tired of your shit. Yeah, I'm tired of all of your shit here.
So they were asking the judge to reunite the boys with their father until a date is set for the neglect trial because they're saying, well, he neglects his kids because he gambles and drinks and does Vicodin and killed their mother. So, you know, all those different things.
The defense was critical of prosecution lawyers for filing a document that outlined the prosecution's theory of the case, which he contended was an attempt to poison public opinion against his client. He said that is a kind of a prejudice.
That kind of prejudice is difficult, if not impossible, to overcome public sentiment. So the lawyer told the judge that his client was a loving father who made his kids meals, helped them with their homework, and sang to his children at night.
The lawyer said, you have everything you need. You know everything you need to know to place the boys with their father while his lawyer is saying this in court fucking flows mom claire is clutching a picture of of flo and shaking her head in disgust going no no no killed my daughter yeah so the judge turned down a request that would have returned custody to mark and instead she agreed to allow Unger some increased visitation time, but not before telling the attorneys they've acted shittily in their court here.
The judge said that verbal shots the two sides were taking at each other were getting back to the boys. And she said she would not stop the attorneys from talking to the media, but suggested they maybe used a little more discretion to not get it back to the kids.

They said, think about the effect your statement is having on those two little boys.

And the prosecutor said,

we believe Mr. Unger did kill his wife

and we believe it would have been an injustice

to return the boys to their father.

So May 2004 comes around.

This has been over six months now.

Finally, Mark is charged with a crime here. He's going to be charged with murder.
Really? Yeah. There's some, first it's first degree, then they say it's second degree because there's a hearing about it, and then it's returned to first degree later on.
But the only link to that body they have is him jumping face first into the right spot. That's pretty much it, Yeah.
Whoa. And his weird behavior.
Whoa. Yeah.
And the fact that unless a stranger came and said, I'll just dump this unconscious woman in the water, which would be a real weird thing to do. I'm thinking there's only one person on that whole property with the motivation to throw this lady in the water.
Yeah. But yeah.
All they've got are no jump into the right spot. That's the thing.
No, they don't they don't have i don't like that that's tough and a smear of a paint smear that i mean if you've had a couple of beers you could scrape your shoe against the deck and get white paint on it i don't know if he was a skater when he was a kid how many friends do you know that like jump off rails and shit yeah i could kick flip this you know what i mean yeah maybe mean? Yeah. Maybe he's doing that.
Who the hell knows? Back in my day, I could have kick flicked. Or maybe they're sitting there talking and he's nervously kicking his fucking foot against the side of the thing.
There is that because there is a lot of discomfort in this fucking situation. Totally.
So I tend to kind of get a little jumpy in situations like that. Oh, I shuffle a lot.
Yeah. Big time.
So they picked him up as he was pulling away from his house. Okay.
They got him. They, you know, he pulled out of his driveway.
They said an hour later, his red Ford expedition remained in the driveway with an open briefcase on the front passenger seat, left it behind. So they claim Mark and obviously that he pushed her off and that's what happened.
And, uh, so the prosecutor here, this isgrass she leads the prosecution her dad was a detroit cop um so she's all about this shit she has been called michigan's best prosecutor at the time this was her 93rd murder case nine really yeah and the defense guy has over 100 murder cases where are these people living fucking michigan yeah michigan A lot of murders there. It's a good one.
So when she is sitting down with Chris Hansen later on, Chris Hansen said, how many have you won? And she said, all but two. Oh.
91 and two. Or 90 and two at this point, I guess.
And they said, that's a pretty good record. And she said, I've been lucky.
Yeah. So she also here, she had kind of her work cut out for her here because this isn't the strongest case.
Hansen said to her, there's no DNA evidence. And she said, no.
They said, there's no fingerprints. And she said, no.
But we had circumstantial evidence. And we believed what was admissible as evidence that we could present a pretty clear picture for the jury.
So let's give it a shot. This trial is going to be, by the way, it doesn't take place till May of 2006.
Wow. Actually, late April, because it's a nine week trial.
Nine weeks. That's over two months.
That's a long time. That is really rare for a trial to be that long.
I mean, that's big. You gotta have money to pay lawyers to do all that, present that kind of evidence.
He is spending that $750 right now. So, the jury is six men, six women, and the trial has mountains of conflicting bullshit on both sides.
Pathology reports are the main deal for the prosecution. And a recreation of Mark's walk down to the water that morning.
They did a wooden mock-up of the deck railing and all that kind of thing here. So it's a big trial.
It's taking place in the next county over from this county. They moved, changed a venue.
So it's a huge trial in a tiny county. It's one of those, which are always a mess because, like, they don't have the proper media accommodations.
It's tough. So the prosecutors say, obviously, pushed his wife off a boathouse deck, and we know the rest here.
They told the court that Mark Unger could not stand the thought that his wife wanted to divorce him and that she had had an affair with his best friend. Now, we don't have any evidence that he knew about that.
Yeah. Like I said, he might have just learned that when you accused him.
That's well, yeah. When discovery, he would have learned that when the prosecutors show.
Yeah. But that's what's fucking weird is that unless he found out in the three days in between when this guy slept at their house and when they went on this trip i don't know why she would have told him about that before a divorce why would you give unless yeah you wouldn't give her any you wouldn't give him any ammunition in the divorce because an affair now it's an yeah he's gambling and doing this but she's having affairs the thing is he's trying to he's trying to say we can reconcile she may say well no because your best friend's dippity doing so no but that's not worth throwing your whole divorce case away i don't think just to get a shot in because she she's been wanting like planning this out for six years and that would just fuck her entire divorce case i would imagine i don't think she was planning on bringing up that she was banging dude's best friend during the divorce of why she's such a great lady and he's a piece of shit.
So it's fucked. Real fucked.
So the prosecutor said, well, in this case, it was pretty clear that this woman was not just scared but terrified of the dark. And the bottom line is, if you believe that she's truly afraid of the dark, then she simply would not have stayed out on that deck where it's pitch black.
Then his story failed from the get go, they say. They say they'd say a frightened woman, an escalating custody fight, betrayal and tears and all this shit.
Prosecutors told the jury that pressure boiled over on the deck and they argued and maybe Mark snapped. Maybe he pushed Flo.
Maybe he just shoved her, and then he went back to the cottage. But they don't know.
That's all circumstantial. It's speculation.
They said, you know, that's tough. They said the problem is they have to show that she didn't die from an accidental fall, but that whether he shoved her off the deck or not, he did put her in the water where she drowned.

So that's what they have to prove.

Yeah.

They said the only way the injury like this can occur is the result of blunt force looking down this on the spinal cord, which we had to cut off to remove the brain.

That sounds bad.

So the defense lawyer said that the rail around the boathouse was old and rotten and gave way when she leaned against it and she fell. Open and shut case.
The railing really is the culprit here. They produced several expert witnesses to disprove the prosecution's theory.
All circumstantial, obviously here. They also the defense tells the jurors that the police botched the investigation, starting when the resort owner called 911.
She mentioned suicide. The dispatcher passed it along to the officer at the scene, but they said the officers got caught up looking into suicide and missed the real evidence pointing to an accident.
Yeah. That's what it is.
So, I mean, obviously, they missed it. The defense dismissed the motion that there was anything sinister about Mark running to the spot that Flo lay dead.
They said, of course, Mark ran right there. The boat deck was the last place he'd seen her, and he just watched Lynn Duncan walk up from the exact spot.
But he didn't because it's pitch black out. You don't see him walking up from that spot.
That's the thing. You're not going to see him.
And it's a good distance. Right.
He came to tell you and you didn't see him walking. No.
If you did, then you would have been there. Yeah.
No. So Mark insists that he didn't learn about the affair until months after Flo's death during pretrial hearings when they got discovery.
He said it. So it couldn't have been a motive if he didn't know about it.
So the defense still has to deal with the prosecution's medical case, though. And the blood stain on the cement is a pretty hard piece of evidence that's hard to you.
It's impossible to jump into the water from the boat deck and and not see the blood. Yeah.
Well, you can't jump over that slab into the water. You'd have to be some kind of super athlete.
And it would be really hard to leave a puddle of blood behind as you flew over it also. Definitely hit it.
So the defense just portrays the deck as a death trap with a dangerously low railing, rotting wood, and a slick, mossy surface. Gross.
God damn it. They're going to bring up later on a retired engineering professor who's going to present a computer-animated group of scenarios that could have happened.
When they do this at trial, it is so ridiculous and funny. They shouldn't allow these computer mock-ups, by the way.
I think it's prejudicial. It really is fun to watch a cartoon of murder, though.
It's so silly. It's so silly.
But I think it's also prejudicial because you can't just display a theory and now people are watching it and thinking it's real. I don's that's i don't like that at all so um anyway he presented all these scenarios and uh the prosecutors dismissed this all as cartoons cartoons animating in here who are we yeah praying matt stone what's going on here yeah they just killed kenny this is ridiculous so the prosecutors accused the defense ofating about the deck, saying it had been there for decades without anyone suffering a fatal fall.

So probably isn't that bad.

And they'd been there 10 times, too, and she never fell off it before.

So medical people here, pathologists called as witnesses by both sides, offer completely conflicting testimony to each other, which is tough for a jury.

The person who performed the autopsy, Dr. Stephen Cole, listed head injury as the cause of death, but said he couldn't rule out drowning.
The other doctor, Dr. Dragovich, said the Oakland County Medical Examiner, he's another one here, he said that this evidence, such as fluid in Florence's lungs, suggested she drowned.
So that's that. It certainly suggests that she was still alive when she went into the water which she couldn't have done so therefore that's murder that would be someone murdered her that's the thing so this is not an accident somebody did this but who well if you look at it logically i doubt that fred in the fucking motorboat came back and killed her for no reason so there's one guy with any any motives.
I think that's the whole point here. So now they argue about how flow is portrayed in court.
Apparently the prosecution was arguing that the defense council had painted flow as a quote, shopping crazed adulterous. So they said that the defense council never argued that the victim was a shopping crazed adulteress it was actually the prosecution that was their way of summing up what they were saying about her so the judge said you shouldn't to the defense you shouldn't be saying that shit and you shouldn't be saying shopping crazed adulteress because they never said that it's all inflammatory yeah now you're being the inflammatory ones to the person you're trying to keep nice.
So, doesn't work here. And there's people talking about fake tears of Mark.
Donna Pendergrass, the prosecutor, started to build her case by asking witnesses there that day to describe Mark's demeanor. And one person here, they said, so you indicated he had kind of going between crying and being matter of fact and this guy said yeah i'd offer him kleenexes and he'd take them but i never saw a tear that's no good why that's what do you need that for not great and another woman who was there named fran said he got noticeably upset sobbing very loudly but i never noticed any tears.
That's a problem. Tears come out of your head.
I don't like when they don't cry. No.
Whenever you see someone fake cry, when they cry and no tears come out, that's not good. No, no, no.
That is not good. Tears are, it's a physiological thing that happens.
You get watery, your nose runs, you get red. Like, there's a bunch of stuff that happens.
Just going, it's not crying. Yeah, your thoughts and such are what make you cry.
Yeah. And if you've got no thoughts and sadness, then you don't cry.
You don't cry. That's why when you watch a movie and an actor's crying and they have fucking snot coming out of their nose.

You're like, fucking A, you are killing that shit. That person's a psycho.
Yeah. Standing there with one tear coming down their eye.
You're like, get the fuck out of here. Who put that visine drop in your eye for that shot? Mix that with vodka and drink it.
That ain't real. Yeah.
Murder martini for you. So Lynncan the one of the couple who owns the place the husband here they asked him had you told or given the defendant any information whatsoever about where florence's body was and he said no none just said she's in the water he went a running now the cross-examination of lynn duncan the attorney says, and so after you spoke with Mark, he ran back exactly the way you had come down to the front of the boathouse.
And he said, yes, exactly. And they said, exact path you had just traveled.
And he said, yes. And the defense was like, see, must have seen him coming.
That's what happened. Now, Glenn Stark has to come up and testify.
Oh? Oh, man. He is the dick in the ointment jar here.
This is not good. A little dirt bag.
Oh. So they asked him.
And he's using the ointment for lube. For lube.
That's why he's putting his dick in there. Lube it up.
So they asked him, the defense asked him, did you have sex in the Unger? And Glenn said no. And they said, did you go somewhere else and have sex? And he said yes.
And they said, do you know where Mark was at the time that you took his wife to have sex with her? And he said, I do not. That sounds terrible here, obviously.
I didn't even think about him, to be honest. Never even thought of him.
Just really was thinking about his wife's sweet sweet pussy that's all i was thinking about it's good they'll make you forget she has a husband jesus who's your best friend no it's on a side note here mark on dateline later talking about the affair okay with chris him and chris hansen ah this fucking for Poor Chris Hansen has to talk to every asshole. He busts perverts, but he's also a pervert.
Tell me more. Tell me more.
I troll for very young women also. Oh, man.
So they said, he says to Mark, Glenn Stark, how do you describe him? And Mark says, my best friend was fucking my wife. How else do you describe him? That's how I describe him.
The man who was betting my wife, which is a great answer. Ah, Jesus Christ.
How else do you describe him? That's how I describe him. What if everything we thought we knew about justice was wrong? In This Is Actually Happening's new series, A World Beyond Revenge, we explore a radical idea that justice can be about healing, not just punishment.
Through five powerful stories, we meet people who've experienced unimaginable harm and those who caused it as they come together to seek something radical. Healing.
From a man tortured for a crime he didn't commit,

to a woman who misidentified her attacker.

These stories will change the way you think about justice,

forgiveness, and the possibility of a better world.

Follow This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to This Is Actually Happening ad-free right now

by joining Wondery Plus. The guy who was patting me on the back saying, you can get through this, you can do this.
And he was sleeping with my wife. Patting my back with one hand, fingering my wife with the other.
Fingering her with her, patting her ass with the other. And they said, and did you know this before? And Unger said, oh, I had no idea.
No idea. Her best friends didn't know about the affair.
You know, so what she's going, what? So what? She's going to all of a sudden tell me? No, Flo would have never done that. And I do believe Flo would have never told him.
No, it doesn't seem like it. Because it would fuck her divorce case up.
And that's what she was concentrating on. So another piece of evidence here the prosecution presents is a videotape.
This is a reenaction, a recreation of Mark's route down to the water um it goes to show that basically he could not have seen where flo's body was so he couldn't have run right to it unless he knew where the fuck it was yeah you gotta know they're showing how dark it is out there and everything else and they're like you can't see more hundreds of yards away in the dark you just can't you know the guy isn't a fucking human flashlight. So the last image on it was an inflatable female CPR dummy floating face down in the water.
So the defense was pissed off about that, obviously. They're like, that's crazy.
But the prosecution said, that's what we got here. Okay.
Now, Chris Hansen said, at one point, asked the defense attorney later on, was there reasonable doubt in this case? Yeah. And Bob Harrison, the defense attorney, said, there was so much reasonable doubt, you could climb on it.
What a weird way to put that. It's a mountain.
It's a mountain. He said, you could walk on it.
You could throw it. Well, if you could walk on it and climb on it, it sounds pretty heavy to throw, no? He said, if this case didn't contain reasonable doubt, the concept does not exist.
Very definition. So the defense attorney in the defense painted a very different picture of what happened.
He said Mark Loveflow had no reason to kill her. Her death was a horrible, tragic accident.
He said Mark just left his wife for a few minutes to be a good father and put his boys to bed.

And during that time, she tumbled off the deck.

When Mark came back, didn't see her.

He assumed she was at the neighbor's and he went to bed.

The defense lawyer said at the very beginning of this investigation, a very, very sad thing happened.

And that was they accused the wrong guy.

So he said also there keep saying she's afraid of the dark. She's afraid of the dark.
No, she's not. Bob said, do you have any asked one person that relative? Did you have any knowledge or awareness that Flo Unger had a fear of the dark? And this guy said, no, I was not aware of any.
And a friend of hers said, I don't know. So it wasn't a thing she a thing she talked about constantly but they're acting like she wasn't that scared of the dark now a cousin of Mark's testified that if Flo wasn't afraid of the dark or if she was afraid of the dark she never showed it at Watervale because they'd been up there with her before and she walks around in the dark so they asked to your knowledge was Florence Unger ever on the boathouse deck at night when it was dark? And this person said, yes, she was all the time.
That's what we did. So now why did Mark want to leave so quickly? Tell me.
The defense argues that Mark's mood swings while on the phone and packing the car to go home could all be explained as a natural reaction to shock and grief and his overwhelming concern for his two young sons. Now, people do act weird.
There are no two reactions to tragedy that are alike. There just isn't.
So that's true. The defense lawyer said, didn't he say, I just want to take my boys? I just want to take my boys and take them home.
I want to go home. And the deputy that was first on the scene said, yes, he did say that.
I mean, if I got, yeah. What else is he going to say? I want my kids the fuck out of here.
Yeah, but he can't say, I just want to flee this murder scene that I committed. I just want to flee the scene.
Just got to get away from this dead body. Just got to get away.
Yeah, I got to get my DNA away from this one. Yeah.
It was a distance between me and suspect. a defense attorney scored up some points for mark when he got the doctor who did the autopsy to admit that the medical evidence didn't necessarily point to murder but it's very semantic because like that evidence doesn't not everyone with those injuries was murdered okay it's not a gunshot wound through the head or a cut throat or a knife in the heart you could have you could have a car accident with those two injuries that's the thing but that doesn't explain how the fuck did she get in the fucking water from the concrete that's what that doesn't explain but they're saying that medically that's not your job to explain that so you know that's how that goes so they said you don't know whether this woman's death was accidental or intentional.
And the doctor who did the autopsy said, I don't know for sure. That's correct.
So then they attacked the credibility of a neuropathologist who had testimony as well that Flo was pulled into the water where she drowned. And they said, the defense said, would it be fair to say that you like cases

that generate a lot of publicity? And this doctor said, no. And they said, you gravitate toward

cases where you can get your name in the newspaper. And he said, no, I, and then they said, get your

face before the cameras. Is that a fair statement, sir? And he said, no, sir.
Every expert there is

being paid to be there. That's the ridiculous part.
The cops get extra court pay to be there. You know what I'm saying? To testify.
The people who work for the state get court pay, which is extra to testify overtime. Yeah.
That's a special thing of court pay. It's different.
And then you get, it's a different rate and everything. And then you get fucking, um, you know, it's just silly.
I don't like, yeah witnesses, of course, they're paid to tell. What, are they going to come there for free? That's their job.
I'm not doing this because I'm a hero to society and I'm Robin Hood. I just stick around to testify all day.
I had to go to medical school and this is what I'm doing here. I'm a professional testimony provider.
That's it. So anyway, I guess this neuropathologist testified a few months earlier during a hearing that Flo was on the cement apron for only a few minutes.
But at trial, he said that she lay there unconscious for more than an hour and a half, which is very different. Yeah.
So the defense said, now, which is true, doctor, the evidence you gave in January or the evidence that you gave from that witness, Dan of them are under oath which statement is true he said both of them are true huh how do they okay and they said both of them are true as a question and he said because of course that's the answer yeah of course i i don't know what you're talking about and i've researched this a lot and I still don't know what the fuck that means. Yeah.
But you can. So they were either he was she was there for a minute or an hour and a half and they're both true.
I don't get I guess either could be true is what. Of course.
Yeah. Because of course.
Because of course. And the attorney said, of course.
Are you just making this up as you go along doctor and he said of course he said no sir they said there is a man on trial for murder here do you understand that sir and he said i perfectly understand that yeah it doesn't matter then the defense team has its own dramatic exhibits here this is a mock-up of the boat deck brought to court to show they They made a little fucking diorama. That's nice.
To show what happened there was linked directly to the condition of the deck itself. And they also have this computer thing.
A guy named Dr. Paul.
This computer graphics that demonstrate to the jury. And this is 2006, too.
So it's way less than even now that looks like shit but then it looked terrible it shows how an accidental fall could have occurred um and it probably looked like roly-poly-oly i bet like it had if the victim lost her balance however this doctor admitted that he could not rule out the possibility that the victim was caught the fall was caused by the criminal agency of another person she could have have been pushed. I didn't say she jumped.
Moreover, the absence of palms-down injuries on the victim's body provided evidence from which a rational jury could have concluded that the victim was already unconscious or otherwise incapacitated when she struck the concrete pavement. There's no arm injury where she tried to catch herself, hands, palms, elbow.
When you fall, no matter what, you fall off a fucking building, you try to catch yourself. It's just human reaction, and none of that happened.
So they're saying she had to have been unconscious when she made the fall. Okay, yeah.
I can see it. There's nothing on her knees, nothing on her elbows, hands.
Yeah. The palms of the hands, the heels of the hands.
Yeah. Or forearms.
Oh, that was my least favorite bicycle injury. Getting a rock stuck in there? That was great.
And it's that way for so long. Oh, it hurts so bad.
You don't realize how much you use that exact spot in your hand all day long. All the time.
Not just for getting rocks in anymore. Yeah.
So they said there were some wounds on the victim's hands and arms, but he testified that he didn't believe these injuries were sustained as a result of a palms down fall position. So the doctor did not believe that the hand and arm injuries were consistent with an attempt by the victim to brace herself upon impact with the concrete.
Instead, the testimony suggested that the possibility that the victims fall from the deck was not accidental. Okay, so the railing.
Experts testify the railing was almost a foot too short to meet Michigan building code and that Flo could have lost her balance. Even the owners of the hotel admitted the deck wasn't in great shape.
It's a deck that we could have used a redo on that. So the defense attorney has Lynn Duncan up there and says, in fact, in your words, the deck had gotten pretty ratty.
And they say there's a long pause and she says yes, or he says yes. So ratty, and according to engineers, rotting here.
Here's David Ruby, who's an engineer testifying for the defense, said, and in the condition that the timber was in, an accident was waiting to happen. That's all it is.
The defense's team's final witness is Dr. Igor Paul, who's a mechanical engineer from MIT who produced several animations, which would show you in silly cartoon terms how Flo could have toppled over and ended up in the water.
His videos show how she could have gotten from the concrete to the water, which is amazing. But did he make her Canadian? No, unfortunately.
Her head doesn't open like a... Yeah.
So he narrates the video, okay, and says, quote, when she bounces with her head and her shoulder, her pelvis is still above her so that when she bounces, she actually gets propelled up in this frame. Then she continues rolling because she has rolling energy.
OK, I am a big dick energy I'm not a mechanical engineer, and I didn't go to MIT. Yeah.
But falling straight down and splatting doesn't make you then roll more. There's no hill here.
She didn't take a running start and fly off the thing and land and fucking tumble. So that doesn't make any sense to me, anyway.
As for the bloodstain on the cement, he said cement he said quote when she hits right now she will be hitting with the right side of her bed head above her ear essentially and the blood squirts out of her nose so that's what happened then she has rolling energy to get off the thing now in other videos she he had several theories that were ridiculous. Another one that was really ridiculous was she fell, hit her head on the thing, then had seizures into the water.
Oh, boy. Even though with a broken skull and broken hip, her body was jumping like a fish over there, broken pelvis, whatever, and got over the brake thing and into the water yeah and they're like if i'm in the on the jury even if i was voting not guilty once i saw that i go oh that's the alternative that's ridiculous guilty right you just showed every alternative and they're all stupid so no i don't buy any of this shit i was gonna vote not guilty but now i don't know.
So that's pretty crazy. And they also said, obviously, a weak railing is the cause of all of these problems here.
Now, the closing arguments here. The prosecutor in the closing argument, it's a long one, by the way.
She gave a three-hour closing argument. What? That is a lot for a jury to take.
Two movies? Two movies worth of a closing argument. That is...
God damn. A double feature closing argument.
I get that our podcasts are sometimes that long, but you can walk around, do some gardening, go out to the store, travel, drive. We're talking about...
Yeah. This is in a chair.
Is she talking about the town too yes giving reviews of local restaurants talking about fucking dan what the hell's his name darren god darren's bald fucking ed darren's the bald bass player guy slapping the bass i don't know what the hell else you could talk about for three hours but three hours prosecutors will say like and i need to any attorney will say you don't want to sit a regular person who might not be interested in legal shit in a chair for three hours and make you listen to like a dry recitation of the case especially after like a nine-week trial which is not a single joke huh no jokes no nothing you should have to have some jokes right you? You fucking better. If we did this without it, it'd be miserable.
There's shows that do it, and I don't understand it at all. I don't get how the hell they do it, and I don't get how they get through it, and I don't know how their audiences get through it.
I don't know, man. Without just going, this is fucking sad, or this is fucking boring, or this is something.
We're trying to put a nice little edge on this thing for you you know like a little bit so three hours here she said the unfortunate truth is that a human life has been ruthlessly and recklessly obliterated wow and there will never be enough justice for that never now the defense attorney here, he went even longer. He went longer than three hours.
How much longer? Longer than that. That is wild.
So he says, this is Bob Harrison in his closing, he came back and he kissed his sons again after just destroying their mother. Hannibal Lecter in Silence of the Lambs couldn't even do that.
It's outrageous to suggest that somebody could destroy the life of the mother of these children and act like that. It's outrageous and absurd, and it's a lie.
Yeah, so the verdict here, four days and 25 hours of deliberation. What? Dude, they think less about whether to invade countries than fucking it takes less time to think about.
This is crazy. Just a shade time more than that bitch ran her mouth for.
Yeah. 25.
That is sick. And the pride.
Yeah. Equaled about the closings of both, we'll say.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 25 hours over four days.
So what do you think is going to happen here? Let's get opinions here. I mean, that's a long time to talk because there's no physical evidence.
I really think that this man is getting off, man. You can't.
You have no. All you have is he dove in right where she was at.
And, I mean, clearly she didn't do this to herself. Somebody gave her a hand.
but you can't. You have no.
All you have is he dove in right where she was at. And I mean, clearly she didn't do this to herself.

Yeah.

Somebody gave her a hand.

Yeah.

You can't say he did unless.

It's tough, man.

Unless 12 people think him diving in the water at their exact spot is enough.

I don't know, man.

It's funny because like if it was an hour of deliberations, I would go, God, I don't know.

It could go either way.

They could go no evidence, not guilty.

Or they could be like, fuck that guy. He dove in the water water guilty i think this is more evidence than scott peterson had though uh scott peterson there was dna fuckers incredibly guilty his dna was in the in the ties and the boats and the the shit that i mean there's a hair right there was also other stuff there yeah no he yeah also the he there was maps that he was there and all that shit.
There was a lot more evidence. Scott Peterson he's on.
Okay. To say that there's no evidence against Scott Peterson, they haven't looked at the case closely.
Because there is. That's a good PR campaign he's run for 25 years, but there's plenty.
It's true. I'm just being honest.
You're not wrong. We did the bonus up.
I saw the evidence. There's a's a space of a break of sunlight.
Yeah. No, you're right.
Yes, there's no pizza slice. You're absolutely right.
That's from Patreon. Yeah.
If I'm on that, if you were on that jury as the foreman and said, I don't know, you guys, that pizza, I'd be like, this motherfucker, he's right. But like Scott Peterson, there's more obvious stuff.
Like with Scott Peterson, you go, okay, so you bought this boat that month but didn't tell your wife about it. And there's that.
You started your affair that month. You looked at the tides and the flows of shit right where the body was before you – like all of that stuff equals a mountain of circumstantial evidence.
Like here, there is very little circumstantial evidence here other than he must have because no one else had the motive to do it is not a real good case yeah but i mean he didn't scott didn't like call and say uh go look in this part of the bay because i think you know i mean this guy dove where the body he dove where the body was yeah but if you looked at his computer scott knew exactly where the body was because he he mapped it and went there That's the problem. Scott checked the tides to where the body is.
He checked the exact spot, which is real weird. And, you know, I don't know.
Whatever your opinion is is what it is. You can't have an opinion.
There's a fact. He's convicted.
That's a fact. Shut up.
And if you hear his sister-in-law tell you why he's innocent, it makes it even more ridiculous because you go, that you came up with in 25 years even guiltier but you went to school to do this yeah some people think he's not guilty and that's fine but i think there was a lot more evidence in that case than there is here here literally all they have is she couldn't have gotten the water by herself and he's the only one with the motivation to do it and i think all the nothing else think's guilty, I feel bad for their sex life because that's the only reason

they think he's not guilty

is because they want to fuck him.

Which is weird

because he's a fucking goober.

Because he'll kill you.

And he's a super goober also.

He's a dork and he'll murder you.

He does have a boat though.

So, you know,

that's something.

Unless it's impounded indefinitely.

Yeah, I think it is.

So 25 hours of deliberation over four days. Oh, boy.
Guilty of first-degree murder. First-degree.
It's that dive, man. You can't just go to the body.
You can't do it. Yeah, that's a really tough one to get out of people's head.
You can't do that. You add that in with the fact that she had to have been placed in the water, and you go, ugh.
I had to go right say was where yeah this case says there's no case no legs yeah no where right then you just as soon as that guy he said we found her and he ran right to her he's like hi golly and he's not a homicide detective he's the guy who partially owns a fucking bed and breakfast An inn on a lake no experience this isn't fucking you know agatha christie here this isn't murder she wrote this is that guy's main concern is uh the cost of fried fish what what kind of hit will my bottom line take if i fix that falling apart boat deck? Right. I haven't sold enough Vandy camps to fix the dock.
That's it. Yep.
How many more fillets of fish do I have to sell to do that? And try to pretend and pass them off as today's catch of the day. Oh, my God.
Now, by the way, Mark's mother sat through the entire trial and sold her house to pay for his defense. Wow.
Sold her house. She has no house.
She's homeless. I mean, she's staying with somebody, but she sold her house and just used all the money to pay for the defense.
That's rough. It's a great mom, but holy shit.
I mean, lawyers, they deserve money.

Well, think about how much work goes into nine weeks of trial.

That is crazy.

That's a crazy amount of work.

You got to feel like a piece of shit when you buy that BMW and go, this is from an old lady's house.

It would have to be.

But yeah, it's not just that.

So you have to pay.

You know how many people they have working for them?

Researchers.

They have to pay all those people. There's a lot that goes into that shit.
You got to feel like a that scumbag when you go this was a late this i'm writing a check that cost a lady a bathroom yeah but i mean she also didn't have to fucking do that that's the other thing she could have went well i mean yeah yeah that's nobody forced her to it all has to come from somewhere um so um mark's mother says my son is innocent he would never hurt anyone and i think the world knows that except for those people and refers to the jury that matter the only 12 that matter and they come back with you sir they fuck off life without parole what yeah life that's first degree murder in mich Wow. Mandatory.
So, yeah. Flo's mother speaks to reporters, Claire, here, and she says, I'm sorry, they ask her, what was the first thing that went through your mind when you heard them say guilty? And she said, thank you, God, justice is served.
The defense attorney, Harrison, calls Mark's conviction a horrendous miscarriage of justice. Chris Hansen said, did you take this as a personal defeat? And he said, you always do.
You can't help it. You're in a war of sorts with the other side, and it hurts.
What are you going to do? What are you going to do? Anyway, I'm going to go BMW shopping, so I'll see you later. I got an old lady's house money burning a fucking hole in my pocket like you wouldn't believe.
I gotta go. It's like a reverse mortgage, but I keep it all.
But I keep all of it. So, you know, like a reverse mortgage.
They end up with everything and you get shit and no house too. So Hanson said, is an innocent man now in jail? And Harrison said, absolutely.
Really? Innocent absolutely really innocent now the kids what's going on with the kids they have not seen him since May of 2004 right it's the last time yeah they were not in the courtroom when the verdict was read they weren't in the courtroom for any of this shit because they're kids still they're like 12 and 8 or some 12 and 9 or some shit. So that's a lot, man.
They said that, this is his lawyer, said this is going to be a setback again in terms of Mark's ability to get back with his sons. Obviously, this conviction will make that impossible unless we are successful upon appeal.
Because it's very easy to go, well, he can't have any kind of custody because he's a murderer. So obviously, duh, he's in prison forever.
What's he going to do? So the conviction means that Unger's rights almost certainly will be terminated, meaning parental rights, even if he fights in court. In many cases, however, people convicted of serious crimes voluntarily give up their rights to their children without a hearing, you know, because they can't do anything for him there.
So it's crazy. One attorney appointed by the court to represent the Unger children said being convicted of first degree murder.
What would be the point? The prosecutor will likely amend the petition to include the conviction. So what the fuck are we talking about here? The Oakland chief assistant prosecutor, Deborah Carley, said that that's exactly what prosecutors will do, noting that Unger will be in prison for more than two years, which meets the statutory requirements for termination.
If you won't be around your kids for two years and you're going to abandon them, basically. Now, we get to hear we get to go inside the jury room here and hear from the jurors of exactly how they got to this, which is very interesting.
This is the shit that we need here. So good job, Chris Hansen, getting on this shit.
So the jurors said this was brutal on them. 25 hours of deliberation.
You've got to be, that's a lot of going back and forth. So Chris Hansen said this was not a smoking gun case.
There was no DNA evidence linking him to the crime, no fingerprints, no eyewitnesses. Did that make it hard for you? There's a bunch of jurors sitting there.
And one guy says very, another one says yes, and the other says yes as well. Five people out of the 12 spoke with Dateline.
One's a waitress, one's the owner of a construction company, a nurse, a pharmacy technician, and a factory worker. So that really is a pretty diverse cross-section

of the world there.

On the first day of deliberations, they took

a vote.

One juror, Tina, said, quote,

I was undecided.

And Hanson said, and what Tina

was it that gave you doubt at this point?

And what, Tina, may I

ask?

Gave you doubt. And what,

Tina? Yeah, I love that.

Tina said, it wasn't so much doubt as I just was not ready to commit to anything. I really wanted to go through all of my notes.
I wanted to consider everything, which is fair. Let's go back to the chat.
Let's go back to that. Anywayy another juror said we gave mark 110 we really did chris hansen said he's told that flow is essentially in the water but apparently not exactly where yet he's able to go directly to the location of the body was that suspicious yeah and james one juror james said very they also thought it was very suspicious of his mood swings on the phone that day were suspicious also they're like that's just weird yeah sure and then no he switches over and he's sobbing with one person then switches over he's like yeah so anyway um it's almost like he's got a a range of emotions he knows he has to go through and he's got to start over when he calls the next person he can't be hysterical because he that's the end of the that's the end of this movie i can't start yeah i can't tarantino this phone call you gotta build it that's the problem yeah you gotta build story you gotta build to fucking tears here well although you start out with tears people like oh god what's wrong and now you're right in the middle of it now you're into.
Now you're into something. I can't do that because this is art at the end of the day.
I'm building it. I'm building something.
I'm trying to win a fucking award. Trying to build something here.
Award season's coming up. I got the suit picked out.
I can do it. So they said also the fact that he started packing the car to leave and the fact that he didn't pull Flo out of the lake.
Yeah, he picked her up and then dropped her. And then, like, ew, gross.
Yeah, he went gross and dropped her. Like, no.
It doesn't matter if your wife's bleeding. You take her out of the fucking water.
I wouldn't even think about that. No.
I'd be like, oh, I don't know if she's heavy because of water. Would I be like, help me out? Do whatever.
I'm dragging her to the fucking shore and she's getting out of the water. I'm not going to leave her floating in a fucking lake.
What if she floats away? Now what? So I'm not doing that. So they said, Hanson said, did it bother you that he left the body in the water? One of the jurors, David, said it did.
If it was my wife laying there, I'd be doing everything I could to get her out. Yeah.
Logic. They also believe the theme that the prosecution had.
They said, so you believe the fact that she was afraid of the dark and they all nodded. Yes, they do.
Because I guess it was a major thing theme with her that she told everybody about. One juror said, and I think someone who's not even afraid of the dark wouldn't logically stay out there in the dark.
It's just it's really dark. It's like even if you don't aren't afraid of it, you can't.
It's so dark. It's just dark, man.
After a while, it just gets dark. So another juror said, it just doesn't add up.
I don't understand why she wouldn't go with him to put the kids to bed. That doesn't make sense.
So they think he did that beforehand, went back to set an alibi with his kids, and then came back. And to say, oh, no, where is she? Have you seen her? No, okay.
So they said, Chris Hansen said here, they also said the most convincing was the testimony about her brain injuries. That was the most convincing, that she couldn't have got into the water on her own.
Right. She was already super, super messed up.
Super fucking just, yeah, mangled. So Chris Hansen said, was there one star witness in your mind? One person who really sewed it up for you? I'd really love to know this.
One juror said, Dr. McKeever for me.
He had proof, concrete proof that she was alive for some period of time before she was in the water. They were showing him charts of brain activities and this is how long these things take and all that.
Once the jurors accepted that Flo had been alive on the pavement for an hour and a half they said at that point these computer animations from the defense didn't make any fucking sense at all. In their mind she laid there for an hour and a half.
So if she laid there for an hour and a half someone would definitely have to throw her in the water because it's not like she was getting better. She wasn't healing healing where she can then throw herself in the water.
Yeah. So the one juror said the animated picture showed that hit in the ground, rolled over several times, had a seizure and drowned many things instantly.
Yeah. And there was just too hard to believe.
And then Lucy, the jury, juror said, bodies don't bounce. I don't care what they say on cement.
They don't. Even the ones on 9-11 didn't bounce.
No. You could jump from, I was going to say that, you could jump from the top of a fucking tall building.
It doesn't, you don't bounce. You just come apart.
Well, and the concrete will give a little bit too if there's enough impact. Yeah.'ll – fuck yeah, it will.
Yeah, the concrete will – And the point is your body is not – it's not rubber. It's just shit comes apart.
You can bounce it like 30 miles an hour if you're at a 45-degree angle. Yeah.
But straight the fuck down, you don't bounce. No.
Even – remember the guy – this happened, Christ, 15 years ago on the X Games. The guy went up the half pipe, did some crazy shit, fell down on the half pipe, which is plywood that's meant to be bouncy, by the way.
He fell down, hit splat, and his shoes came off because the energy had to go somewhere. That's funny.
It was hilarious. Yeah.
But he didn't bounce. He splatted.
He crumpled. That's the word that they always say.
They crumple into a heap because that's what your body just naturally does. And that has a little bit of give, the plywood on a half pipe and shit.
It's not concrete, which has no give. Concrete has no chill whatsoever.
As you hit it, you're fine. It's as chilled as it gets.
Yeah.

So, yeah, they said that.

And Chris Hansen said, if Flo's body had been found on the cement, not in the water, do you think you would have gone with this being an accident? And the one juror said, yes. Have to.
And the other juror said, I believe so. Yeah.
So all you had to do was not put her in the water. Yeah.
You know what I think? where I'm leaning at this point is that she probably hit that ground

and was out and made no noise and whoever did it because i'll just be nice uh walked away and then an hour and a half or so maybe heard the that death gurgle is so loud it and they probably were like oh my god somebody's gonna hear this and flopped her into the water. Plus he might have went, he might have, because he's not a fucking doctor, he doesn't know what's wrong with her, so whoever did it might have, or whoever did it, quote unquote, might have said, oh shit, she's still alive.
Yeah. I got to kill her, even though she's going to be dead sitting here, she's never going to regain consciousness, but he doesn't know that.
Right. She's not going to stand up and go, you pushed me down the stairs.
Yeah, you ass. Yeah.
She's not going to regain consciousness but he doesn't know that right she's not going to stand up and go you pushed me down yeah you ass yeah she's not going to point in bruce willis's face and tell him how head backward how how fucked up he is so the uh one juror james said i didn't want to make eye contact with the defense the prosecution their families i knew it was going to be hard or he said, we knew it was going to be hard. So Mark's reaction to the verdict, we need to know also here.
Chris Hansen said, how did you feel as the deliberations went on, day one, day two, day three? Mark says, it was just hard enough to get through those days. Was I anticipating not guilty? Yes.
Was I optimistic about being home that weekend? Absolutely. He's like, I'm going to be home.
I'm going to be eating McDonald's by fucking... He's asking himself questions and answering for you.
Thanks. Chris is like, well, thank you.
I can put my notes down. So glad I didn't prepare for this or anything.
So he says, Chris Hansen says, how does a guy who's married two great kids living in one of the most desirable suburbs of Detroit end up in your situation? How'd you fuck this up, Mark? You had it all. What'd you do? What'd you do? Are oxys that good? They must be.
Mark Unger said, quote, I wish I knew. It was a shock, a surprise every step of the way okay really wow that is wow i don't know what to say about that of the most addictive things and he was doing them all together that ruined his life knew he was gonna lose it start there yeah and then the marriage was falling apart because i was doing dumb shit and she was having an affair because And then I went to rehab to fix all of it.
And when I got out, that wasn't enough and I'm going to lose everything. What's the logical answer for a desperate man? You don't even have to keep it together.
And then Chris Hansen would go, so you did do this then, right? You just told me why you did this exactly. So, but Hansen said, did you kill your wife Flo?

His answer, I would never, ever hurt Flo.

Oh, that's not good. That's the worst answer you could give.

That's so bad.

The answer is no, I didn't kill her.

I would never.

I would never.

He didn't say no.

And he minimized.

He didn't say kill.

He said hurt.

I would never hurt.

Yeah.

Which could be you kicked her in the shin.

Different.

Hanson said, did you kill her? I didn't ask you to fucking, did you kicked her in the shin different hanson said did you kill her

i didn't ask you to fucking did you give her a splinter i asked you did you pinch her i asked you to kill her and what does he say made it even worse quote i would never do anything to hurt her gave you a chance to stop the minimizing gave you a chance to say fuck no i didn't kill her my answer fuck no i didn't kill her get me out of here chris chris what the fuck help me bro yo you're on like mbc fucking tell people this is crazy i'm fucking stuck in here people that made the wrong decision i don't know chris do you have a house you can sell to help me with this because somebody needs to help me this is fucking crazy i didn't kill anybody please mom are you there do you know my mom Chris Hansen, please help me. This is fucking crazy.
Did your mom, by chance? I didn't kill anybody. Please, mom, are you there?

Do you know my mom, Chris Hansen?

Please help me.

You would.

Does your very young girlfriend that probably still lives with her parents have an extra room?

Yeah, please.

So the Unger boys end up going with Flo's parents, who are going to adopt them legally.

Mark's mother is suing them for more visitation, which she should have visitation.

She's a grandma.

She didn't kill anybody.

Mark said he's heartbroken that the boys have to grow up without him.

Hanson said, what are you going to say to them to explain what has happened here?

Oh, boy.

Mark said, just not having contact with them and, you know, saying, you know, you will be able to.

That gives me so much hope.

I can't even tell you.

And I know my boys and I know and they know that I would never hurt their mother.

Again, not kill.

Hurt, hurt, hurt, hurt, hurt.

So 2006, same year, right after the trial, he is sued by his sons here. is just like a legal by someone else on their behalf yeah this is a legal have to to get money that they have rightfully coming this is like I remember do you remember a story years ago where they kept calling this woman the worst aunt in the world because she has like a nine year old nephew who like jumped into her arms because she was so excited to see her and fucked up her neck really bad to where she couldn't work anymore and she was all destroyed.
And she sued? She had, yeah, she sued not the people, she sued the homeowner's insurance to be able to get the hospital bills paid for with total acceptance of the family too. They got it, it was an accident and yeah, this is the way we can pay it.
But the news just took it as an aunt is suing her nine-year-old nephew just for being excited. They literally would call her the worst aunt ever was the chyron over at all times.
James, they call her the worst aunt ever. They also call her aunt from hell.
What? Antichrist, James. There's an old John Oliver episode where they're showing the clips, and there's one where they're describing literally that she had no choice and this was just the thing, but the chyron still says, worst aunt ever on the bottom.
It's like, it's crazy. So that's what she's known as.
So that she can get medical stuff to pay for her back. That's all it was.
And they were totally understood. So they didn't have to pay for it.
They were happy to. So he's sued by his sons, and he didn't contest the lawsuit.
This was on purpose. And was ordered to pay the money into a fund set up for the couple's children.
He's ordered to pay $10 million. Holy.
Which he does not have, obviously. But that's the order.
So that's anything, yeah. Yeah.
The figure was based on Florence Unger's projected lifetime earnings as a bank loan officer, plus the personal loss to her survivors as well. So you add all that in and you get this.
So the lawyers for the sons still plan to seek $250,000 in life insurance. Mark Unger's mortgaged and vacant home in Detroit and about $80,000 in property that belonged to the couple.
So the grandparents are trying to get this to put in a trust for them, essentially, is how this works. So obviously there's going to be some appeals going on here.
Clearly. Yeah, think so.
So, Mark's lawyers argue the cause of his wife's death was not made clear at the original trial.

That's one of the appeal points here.

In light of the district courts, they say, this is them, in light of the district court's incorrect conclusion regarding the admissibility of Dr. Dragovich's expert testimony, he's the guy who said she drowned, we cannot conclude that this, he's the guy who said, because, of course, that's that guy.
Because, of Dr. Dragovich's expert testimony.
He's the guy who said she drowned. We cannot conclude that this, he's the guy who said, because of course, that's that guy.
Because of course. We cannot conclude that the circuit court abused its discretion by holding a new or supplemental evidentiary hearing on the admissibility of Dr.
Dragovich's expert opinions concerning the cause of Florence Unger's death. Nor did the circuit court err by admitting Dr.
Dragovich's expert testimony at trial. Even a cursory review of the Michigan Appeals reports reveal that Dr.
Dragovich has been qualified as an expert witness in the fields of neuropathology and forensic pathology many times in the courts of the state. Moreover, the evidence presented at meaning his opinion, whether you like it or not, is an expert opinion.
Moreover, the evidence presented at the Daubert hearing in circuit court made it clear that Dr. Dragovich's testimony was based on established methods in the field of neuropathology and forensic pathology and that the doctor applied these methods reliably to the facts of the present case.
Although Dr. Dragovich did not perform the autopsy in the case, he testified that he frequently consults and offers expert opinions with respect to cases in which he did not personally autopsy the victim.
And that is completely common. When you ask people for second opinions, who are you going to ask? The guy at 7-Eleven? You ask another medical examiner.
What do you think of this? And you send them the files. They take pictures and files.
They don't have to have your hands physically in the body to see the autopsy. You know what I mean? It's all covered.
So they said that he based his opinions in the present case on the autopsy protocol, the autopsy photographs, various microscope slides and numerous anatomical specimens that were sent for his examination. On the basis of all this evidence and his expertise is a board certified neuropathologistropathologist, which, you know, we know, me and you know how hard that is.
How long did it take us to get? It's crazy. It took us so long to get board-certified in that.
It's wild. He said that the doctor concluded that the victim's head injuries could not have caused sufficient brain swelling to result in neurogenic pulmonary edema, and that the victim therefore must have died as a result of intervening mechanism of drowning.
We note that the doctor's inability to specifically identify any medical or scientific literature to support his conclusions in this case does not necessarily imply that his opinions were unreliable or based on junk science. Indeed, it is obvious that not every particular factual circumstance can be the subject of peer-reviewed writing.
So they said it's just there is nobody has talked about this before. That's why there's no like something to cite.
So that's what they're saying. They said there are necessary novel cases that raise unique facts that have not been previously discussed in the body of medical texts and journals.
Makes perfect sense. What if something new comes up? It's not talked about.
Yeah. Nor was Dr.
Dragovich's testimony rendered inadmissible merely because certain experts disagreed with it. That's why you have experts.
They disagree with each other. We readily acknowledge that there was disagreement among the expert witnesses concerning the cause of death.
But the circuit court correctly observed defense counsel can cross examine Dr. Dragovich and they can impeach him and the jury can believe him or not.
Sure, sure. They said when there is conflicting opinions on expert witnesses, the law says it is solely for the jury to determine which expert is more credible.
They don't have like expert and better expert as a classification. I mean, expert.
Once you're an expert, everybody's the same and the jury decides who to believe. That's it.
It's amazing that they give 12 regular people the ability to believe or disbelieve scientists. They know nothing about this.
It's wild. I mean, yeah, but in the West Memphis Three shit, they brought a guy that was a scientist.
That's the job of the other side is to attack the credibility of this person. But when you bring somebody in as a scientist that got a mail-order degree, that's fucked up, man.
That's fucked up. How'd you like to be in prison forever because of that? Because a guy wrote a letter somewhere and somewhere and they said sure did a correspondence course jesus um also lack of evidence yeah they argue there's insufficient evidence presented at trial to support the conviction of first degree premeditated murder they say both the doctors here concluded that the manner of the death was homicide both doctors excluded the possibility of accidental death because neither believed the victim's body could have gotten into the water of the lake absent the purposeful actions of a second person.
Yeah. There's also substantial evidence to suggest that he had motive to kill the victim, although motive is not an essential element.
It's evidence of a motive and prosecution murder is always relevant. And they said the prosecutor even said, you can say, let's put it on the fucking railing.
They said, let's say she's out there leaning on a railing and the railing breaks because it's so rickety. She falls and she's there.
Then what? Someone still had to pick her up. Somebody still moved that body.
Breathing. Alive.
Alive. And crumpled and bloody right and put it in the water so they're like why would you put it in the water when when that person's still alive because the the illogical person says i've got to get this person help you would holy shit call 9-1-1 nobody says scream hey help help nobody tony soprano pinches Chris's nose.
No. You don't throw him in the water.
You don't do that. So that's the, and here's something that I have that I'm thinking about too.
If there's blood from that kind of head injury, there's a bunch of blood. So him throwing her into the water or whoever threw her into the water should have blood somewhere on him, I would imagine.
Yeah get somewhere on him but i hear nothing not why i hear paint smear on the shoes but i heard nothing about a shirt with a blood stain on it yeah now we don't know if he was wearing the same shirt before or after i'd like to know i'd like to know if he was wearing the same shirt at dinner that he was wearing when right right you know what You know what I mean? Because that's the only time. He could have easily come to the room, changed a more comfortable shirt, and went out there.
And that would ruin that. And then you'd never know when the shirt came on.
And then if he did do it and he got blood on his shirt, where's the fucking shirt? Yeah, what happened? Where's that? It's got to be something. Throw it in a fire pit? Yeah, right.
Is it the bottom of the lake? Did he tie it around? He could have tied it around a rock and throw i don't know you can't lift you'd somebody would have to lift under the shoulders and with a bloody ass head like that you're getting it on you on your pants on your shoes something so your forearms on your hands well that you can wash off in the water i would figure but on your shirt you can't that'll stay there that's gonna stick so i'm. That, to me, I'm like, well, how did that happen exactly? Where did that? I'd like to know that.
So they said there was a lot of the motive, obviously. They said the victim filed for divorce, the marital assets, all that kind of shit.
The proofs also showed that the defendant had threatened to take sole custody of the children and to take the marital home if the divorce proceeded. Also, the defendant had the opportunity to kill the victim.
Evidence of opportunity is logically relevant in a prosecution for murder. The evidence presented at trial established the defendant and the victim were alone on the boathouse deck on the night of the victim's death.
So opportunities, he had all the opportunity in the world. Even the defendant himself admitted to the police that he was probably the last person to see her alive.
There's also evidence of a scuffle or struggle that may have taken place on the boathouse deck shortly before the death. The proofs established that the railing surrounding the deck had been damaged sometime on the day of the death.
Lynn Duncan had been on the deck the day before, and the railing had not been broken at that time. it must have happened that that day however the railing was damaged and broken at the time the victim's body was discovered it is possible the damage could have resulted from the victim accidentally falling or tripping over the railing however taken together with the white paint smear on the defendant's shoe which that's a rough one too that's not that's chemically similar also.
That's not DNA. That's the same as saying these fibers are microscopically similar or these hairs are microscopically similar.
It doesn't mean anything. It just means they're similar.
Can't count it out, basically. It's equally likely that the damage to the railing was evidence of a struggle on the deck between the defendant and victim.
I don't, I don't, that's kind of crazy. That's a stretch for me.
Moreover, there was evidence that the victim sustained internal abdominal injuries before her death as well, which they don't think are from the fall. Oh? Yeah, they said that the internal abdominal injuries were more likely caused by impact with a blunt protruding object, you know, like a fist or a foot, rather than impact with concrete pavement that's flat.

Okay, so she got her ass kicked and then thrown into the concrete.

That's what we're thinking, and that's why they think, too,

she might have been unconscious when she hit the ground because there's no—

That's why she hit like that.

Yeah, so they're saying somebody beat the shit out of her and tossed her over.

And that's the other thing, too. He might have thought he could toss her into the water from there.
Right. And then landing on the concrete, and then there's no movement.
And he's like, well, who cares? That's that. And then for an hour and a half, she's laying there and probably started to come to.
No, she's never going to come to. She had a broken skull in like eight places.
But no movement or motion or talking or anything? No, no, no. Her brain was on strictly like mechanical functions.
It had no. She's never going to regain consciousness with that brain injury.
No, she was fucking dead. But I mean, you don't think that there was any like moaning or anything or gurgling or anything? It could have been gurgling.
That's just breathing. That's possible.
Sure. The shallow breaths and the gurgling.
Yeah. But she wasn't.
She couldn't consciously say or do or move or do anything. She was going to scream, help me, help me.
No. And maybe that's the other thing.
He tossed her down and maybe he thought somebody would find her. I don't know.
I don't fucking know. So they said assuming.
You've got to be right with the he expected her to go in the water. And then he was like, oh, my God, it's so hard to throw a body.
Yeah, he throws. She just fell.
You can't toss that. I'm not as strong as I thought skipping stones for christ's sake it's an adult woman you know i'm such a pussy he's like i used to be able to toss a woman farther than this this is crazy hip tossing was so much easier on my 20s so much so uh they said even if the jury believed the testimony of these doctors equally there's still sufficient evidence of deliberation and premeditationuming the defendant did move the victim's body into the lake, an inference clearly supported by both doctors' testimony, the logical inference arises that the defendant was motivated to move the victim precisely because he perceived she was still alive and wished to prevent her possible recovery.
It's like I said, she didn't know. He didn't know if she was going to come to out of nowhere and start talking shit.
So they said, given the otherwise unexplained relocation of the victim's body into the lake, a rational jury could have reasonably inferred that the defendant moved the victim's body into the water and that the victim was still alive. See, I think you can definitely say that she was moved into the water, but I don't know if you can say 100% that he's the one who did it.
That's a hard thing. Right.
You've got no evidence that he did it, except for the dive right where the fucking body is. That's it.
That's the one. That's the one.
So he also says he was denied due process when the trial court failed to give individual limiting instructions concerning the testimony of seven different witnesses, all of whom testified that the victim had been upset and concerned about his drug and gambling addictions. So they said after the first of these witnesses testified, the defense counsel requested a limiting instruction regarding the use of the testimony.
The trial court gave the following instruction. Members of the jury, you have just heard testimony that Florence Unger was unhappy in her marriage, having marital problems, and she was unhappy with respect to the defendant, Mark Unger's purported drug and gambling problems.
This testimony is not admissible to establish that Mark Unger was addicted to drugs or gambling. It is admissible only to show Florence Unger's state of mind and that there was marital discord.
He said, you may consider this testimony only for the list's limited purpose, that is, her unhappiness in the marriage relationship and intent to divorce Mark Unger. But you can't separate that in your brain.
Let's be honest here. They said, with respect to the defendant's purported addictive problems, those are admissible not to establish he was, in fact, addicted, but only to form the basis of the victim's mind for the marital discord.
So anyway, they said we're going to hear from witnesses with respect to the statements that Florence made and the same instruction will be applicable to their testimony. Here's another thing they said.
They were mean to the defense. Oh, was that right? Mean.
Yeah. They said they were impermissibly denigrated, the defense counsel.
Uh-huh. Defendant specifically challenges several arguments made by the prosecution during closing arguments, including that they said the defense counsel had re-victimized Florence Unger during the course of the trial, that the defense counsel had, quote, bought Dr.
Paul's testimony by paying him a substantial amount of money. That is Prosecutor 101.
Any defense witness, they say, I mean, and he's being paid to be here, obviously, which is stupid. They said the defense had improperly cross-examined Drs.
Cole and McKeever and had attempted to mislead the jury by way of tortured questioning and deliberately loaded questions, and that the defense counsel had attempted to mislead and fool the jury by using quote, red herrings and smoke and mirrors, that the prosecutor said all that about them. And then there's the bodies don't bounce.
Defendant lastly contests that the prosecution argued facts not in evidence when it stated during rebuttal that, quote, bodies don't bounce. That fact is, that's again like saying gravity is not in evidence, so we can't say that we thought that if i drop something it would fall on the ground and and you know there's a lot of people that will disagree with that because they've seen a friend fall and bounce off the pavement but you when you fall from a you know your bike a moving car that you can bounce like that because you've got forward momentum but like a crumpled body that's out, when it hits, it doesn't bounce.

Hits head first on concrete?

No, it doesn't spring out like Don Beebe when he fucking, the Bills wide receiver, that highlight.

That's because there's a helmet there.

That helped that.

That's why he bounced.

Because the little cage thing in the helmet shot his body back up.

Anyway, they go on to say that Paul testified under certain conditions, such a fall from 12 feet onto a concrete surface, bodies can bounce. However, doctors Cole and Dragovich testified that they did not believe the victim's body could have bounced, rolled or otherwise moved into the lake in its own volition.
So they said, accordingly, we cannot conclude the prosecution act argued facts, not in evidence. Moreover, even if this comment had been improper, any prejudicial effect could have been dispelled by a timely objection and a curative instruction.
Also, they said that they shouldn't have been so mean to their doctor's video shit. The defense's video shit.
But it was a sweet cartoon, you guys. Could have been called a Pixar short.
It looked great. Pretty fucking badass they said that because the computer animation showed the victim moving into the water by way of seizures or convulsions were based on conjecture and were inconsistent with the medical facts and evidence they were technically irrelevant to the genuine issues of this case the trial court did not abuse its discretion by excluding some of the videos from the jury's consideration altogether denied and affirmed yeah this is a firm and the bounce that they're saying is like not like ridiculous you can hit the ground and just i mean a couple of you know i mean just the motion of coming on your side and fall over yeah but you're not gonna bounce like a fucking rubber ball and bounce six feet over a concrete embankment wall.
Yeah, that's three feet away. And you'd have to bounce not just straight up in the air.
You'd have to bounce forward. Yeah, you'd have to have forward momentum.
Crazy. You'd have to be shot out of a cannon to have that happen.
Yeah, just physically it doesn't happen. If you were shot out of a cannon, maybe.
Yeah, yeah. It's a forward have a lot you have a lot of force behind you forward and you'd hit and roll maybe at that point but straight down this is crazy so 2018 he appeals again he's been appealing all the way and in this appeal he claims his rights were violated because his trial lawyer who now he labels as ineffective before he was he was a heavyweight, hard-hitting trial lawyer with 100 murder cases.
Ineffective fuck stole my parents' house. Yeah, he stole my parents' house.
You can't say a guy who's done 100 murder trials is ineffective. Right.
That guy's done a lot. It's tough.
Yeah. They said he did not object when the prosecutor made provocative comments in the courtroom.
A federal appeals court rejected his claim, calling the evidence against him overwhelming, and he lost his appeal. That meant that that was likely his last attempt to get a new trial in 2018.
2019, taking it to the streets. Actually, not to the streets, to the Supreme Court, the opposite of the streets.
Michael McDonald, get after him. Here we go.
The court here, the Unger, argued that his rights were violated due to ineffective assistance of counsel. Same shit.
Federal appeals court had rejected it, overwhelming evidence. And the Supreme Court agrees with that overwhelming evidence and tells him to keep on keeping on and get fucked.
So unless there's some remarkable new evidence, he is in prison for fucking ever. Unless somebody comes forward and says, I killed her.
Here's the shirt I was wearing and all that. Unless that happens, he's done.
It's over. Because the fact that there's so little evidence means there's very little evidence that can come to dispute, too.
So it works both ways here. um now he is serving his life sentence at the

chippewa correctional facility in um upper panitens in the up up there so he is for reason chippewa is up there huh apparently chippewa correctional facility in kin oh god kin Oh Jesus

C-I

Kincholo

Kincholo

K-I-N-C-H-E-L-O-E. Kinchelo.
Kinchelo? Kinchelo? Kinchelo? I don't know what the fuck it is. Kinchelo? That's what I thought.
It was so hard for me to not say Kinchloe. That's why I was trying to get it out.
I couldn't. I just wanted to say that so much.
Especially i was watching a murder trial where someone was named chloe recently i was like oh christ it's stuck in my head now here is somebody by the way in crime and sports we always do a a fucking mistaken identities thing someone with the same name it's worse than small town murder yeah because at least an athlete you know that that's probably not really mike tyson who is a cpa in columbus ohio that's probably not that one but this you never know with shit like this there is an attorney in california named mark stephen unger exact same shit it is not him everybody just so you know it's certainly not him his license status is active right now so it's definitely not him. He didn't ask the bar in California or Michigan.
Give that guy a break is what I'm saying. Don't Google him and go, oh, he has the same name as a murderer, and then not use him.
That's fucked up. He had no way of knowing that.
He's worked really hard probably. Maybe.
He could be a terrible lawyer. Don't get me wrong.
He's sick of a lot of old ladies' houses for this. Yeah, so many old old ladies houses.
I think he is like a finance guy because the website is something fiduciary partners. So that means that sounds like money.
Yeah. He's not doing legal shit anyway.
So or like, you know, criminal shit is what I meant to say. So there you go, everybody.
There's Arcadia Township, Michigan and Huntington Woods to an extent and a weird case. Yeah.
So let us know what you think. This is one of those right.
Sometimes there's two of us sitting here so our brains can only go a certain amount. You know more than I do.
Well if you have hundreds of thousands of listeners like we do a lot of times they'll end up coming up with something that we didn't think of because there's a lot of different brains out there. So if you have anything any thoughts on this all, please let us know.
Talk about it. Fucking talk about it on the page.
Talk about it wherever the fuck. Send us messages.
I don't care because I'm interested in this shit. So very, very interesting.
Do that. And also head over to shutupandgivememurder.com.
Get your tickets for live shows while you're doing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Do that. Also get your – review the throw a review five stars doesn't matter what you say just say james and jimmy would be bad at bouncing on concrete that's fine we'll know what you mean they don't know shit about bouncing these guys i'll show them how to bounce that's fine bounce with me and bounce with me bounce so there's that uh yes shut up and give me murder.com shows, including the virtual live show.
Hell yeah. You're not in one of the cities we're going to? We go to like 12 places.
You could not be there. We got other shit.
We got this, the 420 virtual live show taking place on Saturday, April 19th. It's available for two weeks after that to purchase, to watch 100 times, do whatever you want with also, just like a regular live show, except you are in your living room, on your porch, doing wherever the hell you have internet and feel like watching us.
And we're going to have costumes on, and we're going to also smoke a shitload of weed out of weird contraptions that will scare the hell out of Jimmy at intermittent times during the show. So that'll be a lot of fun.
And get your tickets for regular live shows as well. Chicago in May, you are on deck, baby.
Get those tickets sold out, Chicago. St.
Louis, you're doing great. You did it.
Do you want to not sell out Chicago and have St. Louis be like, we're better than you? You don't want that, do you? Jesus Christ.
The Cardinals already have like 20 World Series, and you have like three. You don't want it to be worse, do you? No.
So don't let it be worse. You have a basketball team.
They don't even have one. All right.
Do that. Get the tickets.
Also for the rest of the year, too. A lot of them are selling out.
San Diego, Madison. There's a couple others, too, are selling out.
So even if you want to go at the end of the year and you're like, I got plenty of time, you really don't.

Get your tickets right now. So get in there.
Shutupandgivememurder.com. You can also definitely follow us on social media.
We are at Small Town Murder on Instagram. We are at Small Town Pod on Facebook.
And you can certainly get our Patreon, patreon.com slash crime in sports. It's where you get all the bonus material.
And anybody, if you're $5 a month or above, first of all, you'll be shocked at how many bonus episodes you're going to get immediately upon subscription. It's hundreds.
We've been doing these for years. So it is hundreds and hundreds of bonus episodes.
Then it's a huge binge thing. Then you're going to get new ones every other week and we keep stacking them.
We're going to get one crime and sports and one small-town murder and anybody five bucks a month or above. Just take it all.
Just take it all. Yes.
We don't even want it. Just take it.
It's all for you. It's all for you.
This week, which we're going to do for crime and sports, we're going to talk about, this is very interesting, the 2012 Miami Dolphins bullying scandal. Because you think these are giant football players and stuff.
Who's bullying anybody? They can take it. They bully each other all day.
Or it's like, yeah, everyone gets bullied at work or whatever the fuck it is. I don't know.
So whatever your opinion is on it, there's some stuff that's come out recently where people's opinions on it at the time, some of the people who were involved have now changed their opinions. So it's very interesting.
And then for small town murder, one of the craziest things ever, the Amazon review killer who was like a serial killer who kidnapped these couples and killed them and did all this awful shit. He held women as hostages and did terrible things to them until he got tired of them and killed them.
And he would take all of the implements of his crimes, buy them on Amazon, then review them honestly on Amazon telling how good or bad they were at killing people or holding hostages or whatever. And people would laugh and say it was hilarious.
I found that helpful. And it's like, no, talk about that and more.
Patreon.com slash crime in sports. But we want to say thank you right now to everybody who has been a patron.

Jimmy, hit me with the names of the people who would never, ever, ever throw us into a lake to drown while our brain quietly seeps out of our nose.

Hit me with them right fucking now.

This week's executive producer, Christopher Bottomley, Gary Howard, Jessica Boshine, Boshesny,

Boshesny, I think it's Boshine.

You put like an Italian, Boshesny.

Boshesny.

Boshesny.

See you. Bochene, Bochesney, Bochesney.
I think it's Bochene. Cody Leversy.

You put like an Italian, Bochesney.

Bochene.

Bochene.

I'll see you in a pie.

You put something.

I'll have the Rigatoni Bochene.

Bochene, please.

I hear it's good tonight.

Cody Leversy in Detroit.

You're the best, Cody.

Hey, Shelly Roberts.

Larry Butterfast.

Thank you.

You're terrific, too.

And they're in Orange County.

Julia Hayes.

I think he's in Orange County. Is he in California still? I think so.
I think he is. Yeah, yeah.
He drove all the way there to see us in Phoenix. Yeah, that's right.
From Orange County. That was our guy.
I always, because they're gray and both rad, I mix him up with the rock and roll scientist in Philly. Oh, yeah.
I go rocks too, yeah. They're equally awesome dudes.
They and they're equally yes you're right about that both some texted me on my birthday and i was like oh no and somehow i never i never put that together that they were similar and they are exactly like yeah that's awesome east and west coast guys and they're both great uh julia hayes peter goes in yeah. Because you know that guy.
He's a great guy.

Tara L. And there was clearly a concerted effort to

donate to

PayPal because I had a birthday. And I can't

thank you guys enough. It was incredibly

kind of all of you. Thank you

so much. We will use it to buy

lots and lots of weed for

the 420 show. And we'll celebrate

in a couple of months. Lovely.

Lovely, lovely. Other producers this week

are Peyton Meadows, Jennifer Ward, Alana

as Lots and lots of weed for the 420 show. And we'll celebrate in a couple of months.
Lovely. Lovely, lovely.
Other producers this week are Peyton Meadows, Jennifer Ward, Alana Zamel, Isabel Gill, Happy Hour in Tallulah, Louisiana. He checked in.
Jennifer Ward, Janice Hill, Danielle Garouge, Melanie Fjalkowski, Brian Fingleton, Large Marge, Joshua Reagan, Kira with no last name, Jamie Holliday, Abby Forsbrook, Sierra B, Mattis Rybert, Les Sniper, Janie with no last name, Brada with no last name, Nicole Frazier, Zachary Jensen, Emily Walker, Chris Gavin, Nikki Campbell, Casey McGrath, Ed Cuthane, Koolhane, Culin, I don't know, Andrew, with no last name, Krista Capps, Zachary Burns, Kim Graviter, Currie, Currie, Currie, oh Currie, Ryzenbeck, Currie, thank you so much, Shannon Hovater, Davis Miller. That's, yeah, Davis Miller.
Two last names for a name. Davis Miller, yeah.
Glistopher. Craig Yamamoto.
Glistopher gives no last name. Valerie Jensen.
You don't need one. Nicole Sandland.
Randy Howard. Haley would no last name.
Jason McClain. Jeff Solomon.
Jason Barber. Landon Wood.
Andrea McAllister, Susan Rozelle, Raisinet, Raisinet, maybe. Jenna Wisnowski is a name.
Colby Robinson, Kyle Landrum, Jenna Crawford, Brian Forbes, Jimmy Asslicking, Westman. Why would you want that said? I don't understand.
Is there a joke that we missed? I don't know. Are you trying to be insulting? Or supportive.
We don't even know. That's how out of it is.
We don't even know if you're being insulting or supportive. We don't know whether to say thank you or fuck you.
Yeah. If we can't tell her to say thank you or fuck you, it's weird.
Sorry. I think you've missed the mark.
Minnie Graham. But thanks for money? Renee would know last name.
This is Sparta. Indy would know last name.
Tim Schwartz. Jake Simpson.
Becky Helms. Sherry Tullier.
Diane Davis. Cassandra Bird.
Carly Harris. Amanda Jedi Empress.
Amanda S. James.
She loves Star Wars evidently. Cool.
I guess so. I know that about Star Wars, and I know the Jedis are from there.
I would hope so. They returned in one whole movie.
Monty Tudal, Tracy Richard, Alex Miles, Debbie Stevens, B. Bradley, Josh with no last name, Nick Messmer, Dan Dan Revolution, Brayden Evans, Gregory McGrath, Chris Butler, Joshua Baker, Larry, Laura, Laura Milner, Milner, M-L, that's a possibility? How do you even pronounce that? That's a possibility? What am I supposed to do? You got to put a vowel in between there.
Jeffrey Boyer, Rita Martinez, Molu M. What is this? Josh Tetris, Brandon with no last name.
Michael Ahn, Nicole Meyer. Yeah, that's Meyer.
Avery Lampka, Lampka. Mogwai Warbucks, James.
It's his father, though. It's seen.
I'm just Mogwai. That's Mr.
Warbucks is my dad, really. Call me Mogwai.anna mitchell homebrew murder crew uh wooden monkey donato nolfi nolfi uh april hansen meg hinton buddy priest uh linda madison alexandra pankey southpaw 17 florida one i don't know what that is is that an nfl game play that we're calling i I don't know.
Nolan, Southpaw, 17, Florida, one. Let's go.
On three, on three. Drew with no last name.
Kobe Bryant, probably not. More than likely not.
Kathy Bain, Megan Jackson, Harley Posada. Jenny with no last name.
Aaron with no last name. Alex Greenberg.
Rachel with no last name. James Vogelsang.
Chris with no last name.

Jamie T. Hernandez.

Hugh Janus, James.

Oh, he's with the other one. He's out there, Hugh.

That's with, what's his name from before?

They're together.

Jimmy Masslicking Westman?

No, no, the other one.

Hugh Janus.

The other one.

The first one.

We had another one of those tonight.

They love these.

I don't understand what the fuck is the word. bart simpson calling mo's bar kaylee pay and you know at one point in time i loved a good pun uh kaylee panick uh panick i don't know craig carl no it's carl craig devon brown uh cathley first names that's Get it together with the last name, guys, and exchange something.
You both come away with two fucking normal names. Crystal Cooper.
Patrick Whitmore. What is this? Karen Buckley.
David Spear. Money would know the last name.
Abby Ritchie. Gillian.
Jillian. Jillian Scott.
Brian Scott. Oh, they're both the Scott brothers or brother and sister.
I don't know. The Scots are here.
Misled Chef would know the last name. Pixie would know the last name.
Oh, both the Scott brothers or brother and sister. Hey, the Scots are here.
Misled Chef would know last name. Pixie would know last name.
Jamie Araquin. C.
Munker. What? What is that? It's got to be a misspelling.
I'm so sorry. Spelunker? I don't know.
C. Munker.
Christy Wilcox. David Valerio.
Waverly. That's a cool name.

Bushki.

Bushki?

Bushk.

Kelsey Havlick.

Go ahead.

Say a cool name.

Holly Wilmers.

Megan with no last name.

Joan Gill.

Amanda Bishop Vaught.

Jennifer Sawyer.

Abe Blinken.

You know what?

That's my favorite pun so far.

That's pretty good.

Maybe that's why I like puns because Robin Hood and Men in T Tights, there was an Abe Lincoln pun in there that's fantastic. Hayden Powell, Pervy, Reed, Jonathan Hebert, I hope it's not Pervy, that's tough, Hebert, Hebert, Dakota Landorf, V with no last name, Heather King, Tom Winnelly, Winnell, that's all.
Jamie Lynn, Tara Love. I like that.
That's all right.

Shane Whitaker.

Whitaker. It's probably Whitaker.

Eric Kimball, Cassie Gill, Amber Luciani, and all of our patrons.

I love you guys more than you know. Thank you.

Thank you so much, everybody, for all that you

do for us. Honestly, we cannot thank

you enough for everything. Keep hanging

out with us. Tell your friends.
Follow us on

social media. You want to do that, shut up and givememurder.com.
Drop down menu. We'll take anywhere you want for everything.
Keep hanging out with us. Tell your friends.
Follow us on social media.

You want to do that, shutupandgivememurder.com.

Drop down menu.

We'll take you anywhere you want to go.

Keep coming back week after week.

And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye.
If you like small town murder, you can listen early and ad free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music.

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. Are you captivated by the dark and mysterious world of true crime? Wondery Plus offers you the ultimate true crime experience with early access to new episodes, exclusive content, and a seamless ad-free listening journey.
With Wondery Plus, you'll get access to hundreds of podcasts, including more than 50 true crime series like Dr. Death, the shocking true story of a trusted surgeon who brought unimaginable pain and suffering to his patients.
This was not an operation that was performed. This was attempted murder.
And there's Morbid, the hit podcast that's a lighthearted nightmare. With Wondery Plus, you get access to exclusive bonus content too, allowing you to dive deeper into the cases you love.
Like in Suspect, where an ordinary Halloween party turned into a terrifying murder mystery that left its mark on the community. This case is one of those roller coaster rides where it's like, no, he did it for sure.
No, for sure he did it. Each story is crafted to keep you enthralled,

revealing the complexities and motivations behind every crime.

Subscribe to Wondery Plus on the Wondery app,

Apple Podcasts, or Spotify today.

Unlock the door to a world of true crime like never before.

With Wondery Plus, the best true crime stories are always at your fingertips.