"Mark Hamill"

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Guys, let's just scooch in here real quick. Let's just wedge our way in here right before we're going to start a new, but I just want to scooch right in here, right, before we start and just kind of look up with you in the eye.

Do like a little appetizer, a little audio appetizer.

Yeah, a little appetizer, just get a little scooch in, just kind of like a quick little wink.

Sean, let's just make it a twosome today.

Okay, ready?

Here we go.

Welcome to Smartless.

Yes.

I'm wedged in.

Who's the other guy?

Who's that other guy?

Still wedged in.

Here we go.

Smart.

Less.

Smart. Less.
Smart. Less.
Smart. Less.
Sean, where'd you get that sweet Smartless hat? Isn't that cool? From the merch store at SiriusXM. So you go to sirius xm you can just buy like smartless like t-shirts hats and like uh what if i wanted like leg warmers do they have those why yes yes um uh yes you could do all that you know um do we get any tricks anyone this was sent to me before yeah why'd they send us that i got one i don't know did you did get it.
Why did they send us one of those hats? They're particularly proud of it. I don't know, because they're like new, I guess, in the store.
They're pretty sweet. Amanda stole mine immediately.
Yeah, that's really cool. Who came up with those? Sean, you had a hand in that particular hat, right? No, I didn't.
I haven't. No, not at all.
Will's got notes. Hold on, hold on, hold on.
Will wants a trucker hat. This is like a baseball hat.
Well, yeah, but it's got a real curve on the bill. Yeah.
It is a trucker hat, which I like, but it's got a real soft top to it. It kind of rolls back.
I like a high top to my trucker hat. We call that.
We call that. It's almost got a slouch, and I don't like it.
Yeah, I know. But you can find the high top trucker hats on the site there.
Yes, you can. Where is that, Sean? It's at the SiriusXM.
I don't know the link. Does anybody know the link? I don't know.
Oh, we'll put it in the chat. Yeah.
Everyone's getting the chat, right? Oh, yeah. That's listening to this.
Oh, yeah. People are jumping on the chat, right? Oh, hang on.
Let me just take a look. The chat is blowing up.
Wait, Jay, did you make it to Maple's game? I did. I saw the first quarter, and she was telling Will.
Basketball, right? Yeah. She's got incredible ball skills, which is what I think Sean's or Will's handle, maybe both of your handles.
Ball skill? Coming up through high school. Ball skill.
Oh, ball skill haze. Here he comes.
I love not even commenting and just watching you sort of draw that one out. And I think that's what you want one of you that's how i felt all day today doing our doing our doing our sketches today yeah we were working on something today and chatting about something today that's to come that we keep talking about not sure we got anything usable today i absolutely oh please jb yeah of course we did of course of course of course we did and it.
And it's all in the vein of this fun thing that we keep talking about that we're really excited about. When are we going to talk more about that? In a few weeks.
Pretty soon. When is the audience ready to hear? In a matter of weeks, we're going to be able to talk about what it really is, and I think it's exciting.
I'm very excited to share. I'm excited too.
Super excited. I think it's something that they might like.
Guess what else I'm excited about? What is it? Your next guest? Yes. This is what I like.
I like a segue more than anything. A smooth segue.
Will, have you figured it out yet? Because I was talking to Will, giving him clues today. I was trying to think.
You were like, oh, it's so me. Give me a clue.
I'll figure it out. I'm brighter than him.
Well, so I'll read it. You'll guess it by the end of this intro.
Here we go. We'll have to add him to our smart list, legendary all-star list.
I've just kind of started. But dedicated to his craft, he trained with an Olympic fencer before becoming the thing I cannot yet mention.
As a child, he often contemplated who he'd rather fly as, Superman or Peter Pan. His career started with a role in General Hospital, which primed him for the pilot of Eight is Enough.
John Stamos. As he patiently awaited May 25th, 1977, when the world would come to know him as one of the most famous heroes in cinematic history.
That role is Luke Skywalker, and he is Mark Hamill. Whoa.
Whoa. Whoa.
Mr. Hamill.
Now, Sean, how are you even sitting? By the way, I'm not even kidding. I'm shaking a little bit.
Yeah. I'm shaking a little bit.
How'd you get through the day? Sorry, we're going to meet you in a second, Mr. Hamill.
This guy, Sean Hayes, lives and breathes Star Wars. He said, when you see my guest tonight, you're going to be like, of course, that makes total sense.
And I was like, who could it be? It's not the mayor of Tatooine, but it's close. It's close.
So wait, just before we start, my first of all, thank you for being on here. This is huge for me.
Thank you. All of us.
Billions of other people. Oh my God.
This guy's a national treasure for Christ's sake. You are, and I can't believe you're, but before we start, I just want to read to you what you wrote on your Instagram about Stephen King.
You wrote,

it took every ounce of discipline I possessed to avoid freaking out and exposing myself

as the weak-kneed, slavish

fanboy I truly am.

And of course, I feel the same

way about you as you wrote about

Stephen King. Because I've been waiting 50

years to talk to you.

This is crazy. It's crazy

that I'm talking to you.

It's not quite 50 years. It's 47.
I mean, let's be honest

because the movie came out in 77. I saw to you.
Oh my God. This is crazy.
This is so good. It's crazy that I'm talking to you.
Well, it's not quite 50 years. It's 47.
I mean, let's be honest because the movie came out in 77. I saw A New Hope four times in a row.
I know I give Sean a lot of shit for being a Star Wars. I saw the first one four times in the theaters when I was a kid.
Wow, so you were all like 12, 13, 14. I was seven.
We were both seven. Sean and I were both seven.
They both look much older than I do. Now, Will, did you pay four times for it or did you just? Yeah, I went four times.
I went, yes, of course. You left the theater and reentered four times.
Nobody could believe it was a phenomenon that nobody could believe it changed everything. And we were like.
We talk about it all the time on this show when we talk about movies. We do, we do talk.
And I give Sean a lot of shit just for being a nerd, Mark. But that's not the only reason he's a nerd.
He's a nerd for a lot of other reasons. Mark, how was it to continue being a part of that going forward on and on? Did you think it would go on this long? Oh, of course not.
No, no, not at all. Although when we were doing it, I remember the first couple of days we shot in North Africa, I went over with Guinness and the droids, and I hadn't met Carrier Harrison yet.
And I said to George, why is this episode four? Why aren't you starting with episode one? And he goes, well, episode one, there's a lot of exposition, and it's more political. This trilogy is much more commercial.
So he knew. Did he already have plans that he would go back and do those first three, or did he just kind of jettison that from the very beginning and just like, ah, yeah, we're just going to not even do those stories? Well, the way I understood it was that he originally had planned four trilogies of 12, but when we were shooting, I asked him about the first trilogy, and he said, he explained, well, this is more commercial.
There's a lot of exposition, and it's political, and it's about taxation, and blah, blah, blah. So I wanted to do, he wanted you to feel like you walked into a serial chapter play, and you'd missed the first few episodes.
That's why they had the crawl to bring you up to speed. But, I mean, as actors, you must appreciate this.
When I auditioned, we just had a, it was an open cattle call. Brian De Palma was casting Stephen King's Carrie, the horror movie set in high school.
And George was casting Star Wars. And it was a cattle call.
Like I say, you sat down, they said, tell us a little about yourself, and you talked for five minutes, and they said, thank you. They didn't talk about the project at all.
But here's the interesting part. My agent says, okay, you've got a screen test.
We're sending you the page. It was like a 10-page scene with Harrison as Han Solo in the cockpit of the Millennium Falcon.
No Wookiee, just the two of us. But there was no context.
I mean, I'm reading this thing going, wait a second. Is this like a parody or a send-up of Flash Gordon? Is it like Mel Brooks or whatever? So when I went to the audition, I went to Harrison because he had done American Graffiti.
He'd known George. And I said, Harrison, is this like a send-up? I mean, he said, hey, kid, let's just get it done.
You know, he was absolutely no-how whatsoever. I could listen to you imitate him all day.
So was he, did he have to audition at all, or he was already set in that part coming off of American Graffiti? Well, no, he'd already done American Graffiti. When I did the screen test, I don't know whether he was set or not, but he did do a screen test with Carrie, so I guess George was fairly sure.
And there were two sets of three. And Marsha Lucas, George's wife, said when he was packing to go to London, he hadn't decided between the two.
I mean, there was no mix and match. It was me, Harrison, and Carrie, or Will Seltzer, Terry, none, and I forget now who was Han Solo.
And she took credit. She said, I'm the one that suggested he go with you guys.
That's great. That's amazing.
But here's what's so interesting is, and I went to George at the same audition, said the same thing I said to Harrison. is this like a parody? Are we serious? He went, well, let's just do it and we'll talk about it later.
Translation, translation, let's just do it and we'll never talk about it later. Sure, sure.
Shut up and hit your mark. Exactly.
George is not like, he's not an actor's director. He comes alive in the editing room.
He doesn't want to hear about backstory or motivation or whatever. Now, Irvin Kirshner was the opposite.
He was very much into that. He did Empire.
But like I say, the moment my agent said, okay, you got it, and they're sending the script over, I will never forget reading that script for the first time because it just blew my mind. I mean, even without John Williams' music or the special effects, yes, it was all on the page, you guys.
You really got the sense of— Isn't that amazing? Yes. What about you realizing what part you had just gotten to? That's it.
I have to tell you, Jason, when I, it was weeks, maybe a month later, and when I tested, I figured, oh, Harrison's the leading man. I'm like the annoying sidekick, right? Because I'm badgering him and all this stuff.
And I have to do this for you. I mean, my daughter's through this a million times.
There was a line in the screen test that thankfully was not in the finished product. We're going towards the Death Star and Solos is basically look, I've done my part when we get to an inhabitable asteroid, I'm jumping you and the droids off.
And here's my actual line. But we can't turn back.
Fear is their greatest defense. I doubt if the actual security there is any greater than it was on Aquila or Sullust, and what there is is most likely directed towards a large-scale assault.
Now, try and make that sound like it's a spontaneous thought just coming off the top of your head. You just did.
And I mean, you could diagram this sentence. Well, whenever Scotty and I run out to the store, we say this line, we say...
Oh, this would be great. But I was going in a Tosche station to pick up some power converters.
Which, here it is, here it is. But I was going in a Tosche station to pick up some power converters.
There you go. You know, and people don't believe me, but I was trying to be as whiny baby as I could so I had somewhere to go.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, you had to be this kid who didn't.
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you got to be as annoying and whiny as possible. But, you know, I still get garbage over that over the years.
I just, I just, I didn't even tell you this, Sean. I just watched A New Hope again recently with the little kids.
Oh, yeah. With my kids.
And it just holds up in the most crazy. How old is it? What is it? 1977.
We shot it in 76 and it came out in 77. You guys shot it in 77.
You shot it in 77. It's 48 years, man.
Yeah. I was 24.
Almost 49. Wow.
So you shoot that thing in 1976 in London and in North Africa. Right.
Right? And I remember, by the way, I remember my friend, this guy I worked with, Peter Cohn, who was a first assistant director on lots of big movies. But one of his first jobs, he was a PA, right, on A New Hope? Peter was? Yes, and the thing was, he was not going to be able to go to, they weren't taking him to North Africa, but when they discovered he spoke French, he was in.
And he was like 19, and we became fast friends, and he's still one of my closest friends today. Wow, I love that.
He's a great guy, and I worked with him on a couple movies. He was the first AD on Blades of Glory.
He was also first AD on Withnail and I, which is my favorite film of all time. Yes, great.
So, but I remember him telling me, and maybe Mark, you can speak to this, telling me about like, for instance, R2-D2 is just like this, because it was 1976, it was just like this bucket, like this metallic, it would fall over, they'd kick it. Yes, exactly.
It's a marvel of editing. Sean, why are you crying? Sean.
He's just kidding. On the verge.
No, but tell us. Well, no, it was like you say, I mean, George called it the most expensive, low-budget movie ever made.
And what he meant by that was every single penny has to be up on the screen. The only people they actually had to pay decent salaries to would be Alec Guinness and Peter Cushing.
All of us were unknowns. I think I got $1,000 a week.
I remember complaining to my agent. Whoa, I make $8,000 to $10,000 on television a week.
And she said, hey, get a grip. It's a movie.
It's George Lucas. It's Alec Guinness.
I went, oh, yeah.

And as

you know, I mean,

money is secondary. We do

this because we love it.

And if you can get a nice

salary, good for you.

But wait, what about Robert

England? For my sister Tracy, Robert England

was Freddy Krueger, and he told you

to audition for Star Wars? Is that true? Well, in his book, he said, you know, basically if it weren't for me, Mark, wouldn't it be Luke Skywalker? And to be fair, I mean, I love Robert. Yeah.
But when he said that to me, he had just come back from an audition. You know how it is.
Once you've auditioned, you feel free to tell your friends, oh, have you been out for this thing? And he said, have you been out for this George Lucas thing? And I said, no. And I went to the phone.
I called my agent, and I said, and I told her about it. And she said, I'm all over it.
You've got an appointment next Wednesday. So I hate to burst Robert's bubble.
And it makes for a better story. Sure.
It's a good soundbite. But you know what? We've put it to rest now.
And fucking, I'm just kidding. I was about to unload.
I don't know the guy at all. It's great.
What was your work schedule like before Star Wars? Were you... You were in the pilot of Eight Is Enough.
That's what I want to know. And then you got replaced.
But they changed a lot of the people in the pilot. They changed the father.
They changed three siblings, including me. Vic Van Patten.
I was just doing, you know, I did TV, after the soap, I did TV movies. I don't know how many, 30 or something, between 70 and 76, and lots and lots of, you know, FBI.
You were a working actor. This wasn't a huge shock to you, to the system when this thing took off.
I mean, I guess how can you be prepared for that kind of exposure? You can. But it wasn't, you weren't right off a truck.
No, no, no. Right.
And the way I felt about it, I thought I didn't see any ads for it on television. Like I'd watch Saturday Night Live and usually they, you know, place a movie commercials there.
I didn't see any ads for it on television. Like, I'd watch Saturday Night Live, and usually they'd place movie commercials there.
I didn't see it. And on the day it opened, the driver picked me up to go dub the 35-millimeter Prince, because it only opened in, like, 16 theaters in 70 millimeter.
And I said, can you drive by Gromit's Chinese? I want to see what it looks like up on the marquee. Here's a fun fact.
There was such disagreement on how to promote it at Fox that it opened with no poster. Wow.
They just stapled the lobby cards up because they couldn't. Is this like one faction was promoting it like an entertainment journey beyond your imagination, far beyond.
The other one was like pushing the more comedic aspects, you know, Little Rascals in Outer Space. But they couldn't agree.
So anyway, I said, can you drive by Gramas? And now what I thought was this thing's going to take a couple of weeks to get going because the hardcore sci-fi fantasy horror fans are all going to see it on day one. But it'll take word of mouth for it to spread and say, hey, you know what? It's pretty funny, too.
And it's, you know, it's all these things. But so anyway, we drove by, and I couldn't believe my eyes.
There were lines around the block the first day, so I couldn't figure it out. Yeah, what was the promotion that got that amount of interest going? I was too young to really notice it, but how do you think they accrued that much interest in it without the posters instead? Well, they did a poster, but I think Hildebrand was the artist, and they depicted Luke as like 6'2", and ripped with, you know, muscles, and, you know, didn't look anything like me.
And I didn't even audition, but yeah. You know, but you know what's funny though? What a great example once again of how fucking lucky the suits got.
Oh, yeah. And they kind of got in their own way and couldn't agree on a poster and who are so quick to rush to take credit for shit and blah, blah, blah.
And it was the merits of it that gave it its legs. And it was the merits of the picture itself that got it to where and created this thing.
And how quickly do you think, Mark, those same people who decided that they couldn't figure out to put a fucking poster or whatever, how quickly do you think they took credit at dinner that night or the next week or at a lunch with other- It's fucking absurd. Isn't that the way? Because they really didn't see any potential and we didn't.
Of course. They were really prepared to dump it.
But, you know, George had made a graffiti at Universal and the head of Universal wanted to dump it on the second half of a double bill. And it was only Francis Ford Coppola that went to him and said, look, you've got to give this a chance because they were mad because they spent so much money to get the rights to all the music, all the vintage rock and roll.
But to think that American graffiti could have been just thrown away, and they never learned. We'll be right back.
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And now back to the show. Hey, what had John Williams done before? He did Jaws before this, yes.
Oh my God, he did so much. No, but before Jaws or this.
He did Lost in Space. He did.
He was billed as Johnny Williams, and he did a lot of universal television shows. I mean, we were so, I say.
He did Gilligan's Island. Aside from George, I think he's probably more responsible for the success of that film than any other single person.
Because when I remember Gary Kirst, the producer, picked me up to go to another dubbing session. He said, oh, I just got the score from, you know, I was over in London.
When he put it on, you guys, I'm telling you, I felt tears streaming down my face. Yes, for sure.
So powerful. Exactly.
I also wanted to finish the story about me reading it for the first time. Remember, I got it without reading a script.
I just had read that one. Sorry, keep going.
Well, here's the thing. When I opened to the first page, it said, The Adventures of Luke Starkiller as taken from the Journal of the Wills,

saga number one, The Star Wars.

And I'm thinking, wait a minute.

Was that?

No, I guess Harrison was Luke because I figured he was a traditional leading man.

He was 35 or whatever, and he was Harrison Ford.

Come on.

So I'm starting to read this thing, and in the very beginning, I realized realized, oh my God, this is seen through the eyes of this teenage farm boy. I mean, that was unusual in and of itself.
You'd think it'd probably be through the eyes of Han Solo. But I mean, that's the journey that...
Give us a little bit of Harrison's reaction when he read the script. By the way, Sean, I have to tell you, I didn't say, oh, I'm going to go do an impression of Harrison Ford.
I was on Seth Meyers. And I was just relaying a story that happened to us when we were on the Death Star.
We were midday, and I said, wait a second. This scene takes place after we were in the trash compactor, which we hadn't filmed yet.
Or maybe we had, because I said, shouldn't I have, like, some schmutz and messy hair and polystyrene in my hair? And he goes, hey, kid, it ain't that kind of movie. If anybody's looking at your hair, we're all in big trouble.
And I went, boy, is he right. He's so right.
I told him, I said, you know, you really make a great director if you weren't so lazy. Because he knows his part and he knows everybody and he'll give you suggestions.
They're all gold. I just idolized him.
I mean, when he walked in the door the first time, because I went back after he did this stuff in Africa, Harrison came first and he comes on the soundstage, you know, in his Han Solo gear. And I just, I already liked him in The Conversation and American Graffiti anyway.
But I mean, I just was, the relationship was real because I idolized him. I looked at him as a mentor or an older brother and all that.
I love that. You were so fucking cool with the vest and shit.

Yeah, cool.

And when I read it, I thought, oh, my God,

why don't I ever get the part of the womanizing gambler

and scoundrel, you know?

I'm just like, oh, I'm going to Tachi Station.

What?

I did a thing for Vanity Fair once,

and they said you can do any sort of character

from a film, blah, blah, blah.

And I went as Harrison Ford from Star Wars. Oh, wow.
Because I was like, yeah, he was a cowboy. You know what I mean? Speaking of that, you must know, Mark, that these guys know Scotty, my husband, is as big a fan as I am.
How far off camera is he right now? He might be coming on right this second. Oh, good.
All right. Because he has a couple.
Oh, boy. All right.
He's dressed as Kylo Ren. He's dressed as Kylo Ren.
I mean, it doesn't get nerdier. We've got Scotty and the Kylo Ren.
More royalties for George Lucas. Very good.
So Scotty's got like a couple. Hi, Scott.
He's been waiting. I've been sitting here for like an hour.
You know, my mom told me, she said, when you were born, I couldn't decide on a name. It was between Mark and Scott.
And they said, if you don't decide right now, we're just going to put baby Hamill on the birth certificate. So she literally flipped a coin.
And of course, when she tells you that at age seven, you go, oh, Scott's so much a cooler name. He should have named Scott.
You always want what you don't have, right? But Scott, I'm a big fan, but Scottie's like a mega, mega fan. All right, go, Scottie.
And he's got a couple questions. It's next level.
Hang on. First of all, welcome to SmartList, Scottie.
Yeah, I think this is Scottie's debut, is it now? Thank you. On the proper podcast.
On the proper podcast. I may have been seen in the background, but that's another.
Icen Ogle. Very good.
Mark, it's such an honor to meet you. Thank you.
It goes without saying, as such a huge fan I am. But I think my question really is, at what point when everything was done, the film was done, it was completed, and it was about to come out and all of that.
I know the typical question is, did you know it was going to be a hit? Of course, nobody knows it's going to be a hit. Anything's going to be a hit.
It's not up to us. But when did you have that visceral sort of reaction like we all had? Or did you ever have it like audiences had where you realized, oh, this is something bigger than all of us, this is un- There was a moment, and it was, they sent the three of us, Kerry Harrison and me, to promote it.
And we did Vancouver, I don't think it had opened, and then it opened, and when we came into Chicago, I looked outside the plane and I saw massive crowds and I said, hey, you guys, there's somebody famous on this plane. We were looking around to see if like there was a big sports star or whatever and then as we got closer, I said, hey, Carrie, look, that girl has buns on.
She's got the Princess Leia bun. Harrison, that guy's got the vest and everything.
Somebody had made a Luke tunic out of a pillow. Because there were people dressed like us.
And we all looked at each other like, whoa. That's above and beyond.
I mean, you want it to be a successful movie. But when you see people then role playing.
Especially 50 years later, right? I mean, it's like, hey. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Like a grown man. Go ahead, next question, Scotty.
Listen, I'm here to give Sean a break from the harassment. It's now for me.
Well, listen, I have to tell you, it's a double-edged sword because what'll happen is, and this has been happening for 20, 30 years, the kids that were little when it came out

are now parents of their own,

and you'll be in an airport or something.

And, you know, a five- or six-year-old,

they think we made Star Wars two weeks ago.

I mean, there's nothing to really date it

in terms of models of cars or clothing or whatever.

So they have no concept of time.

And so the parents will gesture to a 55-year-old me and go, hey, kids, look who it is. It's Luke Skywalker.
And they look at this, look at me in horror. Like, God, what happened to this guy? He really let himself know.
Great makeup artist in the movie. Yeah, exactly.
So, wait, so, Scotty, do you have another question before you take off? Oh, Jesus Christ. No, I didn't realize I'd be...
No, you can hang out. I didn't know if you wanted to.
No, no, no. No, I would love to.
Oh, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on one second. Let me just say, Scotty, Scotty, I don't think that Sean meant that.
I think that what he meant to say, like he didn't know if you had more. Sean, I got this.
And then, Sean, Sean, look at Scotty and tell him what you meant to say. Well, what I meant to say was I't know if you had to go somewhere, and I didn't want to keep you on the podcast.
Where the fuck does he have to go? Be honest. I mean, what are you talking about? Now, Scott, how are you feeling? No, no, look at Sean, and you tell him how you're feeling.
Oh, I'm feeling wonderful, and thank you for the opportunity. This is great.
It's a pleasure to be here. Well, hours up.
I'm glad that Mark could be here for the two of the biggest Star Wars fans in the world. Mark, you could see them work out.
In couples therapy. In couples therapy.
We owe everything to the fans. If it weren't for them, we wouldn't be anywhere.
Right, right, right. Scott, you have to have one last Burning Desire question.
Yeah, something. What about Norway with the Empire Strikes Back and the snow? Remember we were talking about that? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wasn't there, I could have this wrong, but wasn't there a thing where you guys were, you know, where you were in Norway, it was just absolutely treacherous with all the snow. And I think you guys were scheduled to go shoot somewhere or whatever it was, but it was so bad.
Then you just went out the back door and did stuff. Exactly.
Here's what happened. They had, you know, our luck was terrible.
We had rainstorms in Tunisia that caused us, we had to shut down. Then we go to Norway, it was like the coldest winter in, I don't know, 11 billion years, whatever it was.
And they had found a glacier, which was about an hour and a half from where we were staying. And we would take, we were meant to go on snow buggies because it photographed on camera, it photographed blue.
And I remember now, this is the days before a lot of CGI, everything was practical in those days. So the day arrives for us to go to this blue glacier, and they said, it's impossible.
I mean, even if we go there, it'll be whited out from the blizzard. So like you say, it was Han Solo rescuing Luke in the snow after getting hit by the wampa.
And if you turn the camera around, there's people on the balcony sipping cocoa watching us. Oh, wow.
We're about 100 yards from the back of the hotel. That's crazy.
This is where you cut the belly open on the thing and you got inside? Yes, exactly. No way! That is crazy.
They were all enjoying it, but it's funny now because, you know, in those days, there wasn't so much security. In other words, when I read Star Wars, it just blew my mind and I said, oh, my God, I've got to get my friend Jonathan to read this.
So my best friend Jonathan worked down at the L.A. Art Museum and I passed it to him and he read it.
He said, yeah, I don't know how they're going to do this or what it is really.

He goes, can I give it to Meredith?

I said, yeah, sure.

So we passed it all around.

All my friends read it.

It was before everything was coded with your name on it.

Right, right.

Where you have to protect it with your life.

But it was just a different time.

And like I say, I had a blast.

I mean, one thing that hit me, I said,

you know what I love about this is you can take from it what you want. In other words, it's effortlessly feminist.
The princess is anything but a shrinking violet. She takes over her own rescue, makes Han and Luke look like a couple of chumps.
You call this a rescue? Give me that gun. And she's standing up, nose to nose, and, you know, really giving him.
Right. And so what I'm saying is that is just accepted, and it's ahead of its time.
How long was the shoot? Do you remember that? Yeah, it was like, I think it was scheduled for 10 weeks, and we went 12. Wow, that's fast.
But that was, I mean, that was Star Wars on Empire. It was crazy because it was scheduled for three months, four months.
Everybody wrapped and went home. And I was still the only human being on the call sheet.
There was a puppet, a robot, various snakes and lizards and one human being. Because they built Dagobah on a soundstage at Elstree.
And, you know, I mean, it's amazing that we could get away with that. Because when I was reading the script, I said, how are they going to do Yoda? Is it going to be, you know, stop frame animation or whatever? I didn't know it was going to be a puppet.
But I'm telling you, Frank Oz is such an artist.

When he puts that thing on, you're just there.

You know, it was so real to me.

And he was always breaking down.

The eyes would go cockeyed.

The ears wouldn't work.

So they had like a stand-in, which was just a foam mold of his face, you know, with a

piece of blue tape where his eyes are supposed to be.

And so every time you see me in a single talking to him, he's not there. But I can.
I can be a Jedi. I'm saying to this foam rubber idiot.
Again, Frank, Oz, I mean, he's, I saw, we're the best of friends, what is it, all these years later. He's just one of my favorite people in the business.
And so talented. Oh, it's so amazing.
Scotty, before you go, now I'm saying before you go. Before you go, do you want to do your Yoda impression for Mark? Oh, yes.
Let's hear it. Oh, boy.
No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
I'm sure it's never been done. Oh, there you go.
There you go. That was great.
That was great. That was great.
That was great. That was good.
That was good. Thank you, guys.
Thank you so much. Thanks, Scotty.
I'll see you. Thank you, Scotty.
That happens all the time. I was on CNN, and Jim Acosta did a Yoda impression.
On air. Yeah.
So everybody reverts to their nine-year-old nerd self. Yes, yes, absolutely.
Because it's like, unlike anything else, everybody on the planet has seen it and knows what it is. Think about that.
Yeah, it's strange. And I have to tell you, when I read it, I thought, you know, this is I am so there.
I mean, even if I had not gotten the part, I would be dying to see this movie. That's how I felt about it.
Do you remember, you know,

I love that story that you talk about on Empire

where you, when everybody, you know,

if the camera were to turn around

they'd see people sipping cocoa on the deck.

Do you look at certain scenes from over the years

over all the movies and go like,

well, I've done this before,

but you go like, oh, I remember I was really sick that day.

Like you watch a take and you go,

oh yeah, that was the day I ate the bad fish.

Well, that was the first scene we shot

or the last scene we shot.

Well, you know, I saw them when they came out

Thank you. really sick that day.
Like you watch a take and you go, oh yeah, that was the day I ate the bad fish. Or that was the first scene we shot or the last scene we shot.
I saw them when they came out but I don't go back and see them again. In fact, when they did the reissue with the special editions when they called me, I said oh yeah, if you can send me a copy, I'd like to see it.
When my kids heard about it, they said are you kidding? You're not going to go see it in the theater? I said, why do you guys want to see it? You've seen it a bazillion times on video. They said, but never on a big screen.
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
So I did. I saw Empire, and the first one, Empire and Jedi, once in the theater, but I haven't seen them again since.
And the same with the sequels. You see them, and you just move on.
Wait, you've seen Star Wars, Empire, and Jedi only once in the movie theaters and never again? No. Yeah, I don't watch them on video, to tell you the truth.
And there's a certain disconnect because the fans have seen them not only far more recently, but many, many, many, many, many more times than I have. So they'll ask me questions where I go, wait a second, because this is, do we go to the British planet? They go, well, it's not in a movie.
It's in Splinter of the Mind's Eye. It's a novel by Harry Dean Fox.
So they play the games, they read the books, and they know way more about it. I know I've disappointed people.
I took a Star Wars quiz once and flunked it. Nathan said, it was multiple choice.
What kind of memorial fails it does? Yeah, I was going to ask you when the last time was that you saw the first one, Star Wars? It would have been 97 because it was the 20th anniversary of when it first came out. But, I mean, the question's like, what was Han Solo smuggling? A, jewelry? B, units? C? It was spices.
And who knows that? I mean, the minutia that these people have is really astonishing. And I hate to disappoint people if I go to these.
Didn't they have Spice on Dune, too? Yeah, they had Spice onune, yeah. What's with the spices in space? Yeah, well, people like it.
I said, it's a real hot commodity in space. You know, get some tarragon up in space and you're living up the, you're the highest of cotton.
Yeah, go ahead. What is the craziest fan interaction you've had? Oh, God.
Like, do you have like besides today with Scotty? Well, number one, don't sign body parts.

Oh, boy.

Sure.

No good can come from that.

Okay.

Noted.

For the most part, you know what it's like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

When it all happened and went crazy,

we were sort of in the center of the storm. So it seemed like everybody was going nuts around us.

We weren't going nuts. Right, right, right.
But it was a different time. I mean, you'd have people

just proposition you like, really? Yeah, come on back.

And we will be right back. Everybody should have a support system, right? Who's your support system? My support system, as you well know, talk about all the time, is Scotty.
And of course, my two besties, Will and Jason. Whenever I have a problem, an issue, I talk to them about it.
And if they're not available, I will talk to a therapist. And I've been going to therapy for a long time.
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Somebody asked me recently, they said, if you had a time machine and you could go back to any time to live, what would it be? And I said, late 70s California. Yeah.
Because it feels like it was like a just like a kind of unregulated, just kind of a constant sunset. Just good time party.
No rules. Kind of easy breezy.
Yeah, it was great, man. Well, you were nine.
But, Mark, you, as somebody who was at the pinnacle of the film industry in that time, it must have been a lot of fun. Yeah, it was.
But you always try and say, I haven't changed. Everybody else is going bonkers.
But, you know, you want to hang on to that. And plus, I immediately tried to throw myself into things.
I wanted to do character parts. I wasn't getting them.
You know how these guys, you do one thing well, they want you to do the same thing over and over again. So I went to New York, and I was able to do character parts.
It wasn't until I discovered animation where I went, oh, where's this been all my life? Because they cast with their ears, not their eyes. And you're able to play all these parts you'd never get on camera.
Yeah, you're like such a superstar voiceover actor now. It's incredible.
But I'm too short to be the Joker. You know, he's 6'2".
You know, I'm 5'9", at best. But wait a minute.
This is you as the Joker, which is fucking crazy. It's incredible.
Because now there's a teeny little bit of me in you too. That's why aren't you laughing? Wow.
That's incredible. That's from Arkham Asylum.
And, you know, I had done the role for however long the first iteration came in. There's so many good Jokers after me.
Kevin Michael Richardson and Jeff Bennett. No, you're one of the most iconic ones now.
It's incredible. But what I'm saying is when we got to the video games, because, I mean, I get mail in the original incarnation saying, why doesn't the Joker kill more people? And you have to say, it's a children's cartoon.
Yeah. There's the standards and practices.
There was a list of things that you could not do. You could not punch someone directly in the face.
You couldn't throw someone through a plate glass window. No nudity, no liquor, no drugs, et cetera.
Somebody made a drawing. Bruce Timm made a drawing of Batman flying through a glass window with a gin bottle and a hypodermic needle and a girl, you know, bare chested.
He broke all the rules in one. But by the time we got to the video games, which is, I don't know, I'm bad on time these days, but 10, 15, 20 years later, because Kevin Conroy was always my Batman.
Okay. That's what I was going to ask you, who your Batman was.
Yeah. Kevin Conroy.
When Kevin passed, I said, this is a time for me not to do it anymore because, you know, I got to the point where my agent would call and they say, they want you for Joker. I'd say, is Kevin doing it? If they said yes, I'd say, then I'm in.
I wouldn't even have to read it. But what I couldn't get used to was the video games because they were for 16 and older and people did die.
I mean, there was, I'm looking at it going, can we say this? Much more sophisticated than the early stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
But I want to ask you a question, Sean, because one of the things I miss about living in New York, because we had an apartment there for 19 years, is seeing theater. And I would have loved to have seen you play Oscar Levant.
Because I could see it. I could see your face morphing into that character.
Oh, So Long Oscar was such a good, oh, dude. And when I was a kid, I mean, in the summertime, I could stay up past my bedtime and watch Twilight Zone and Dick Van Dyke and all the shows I loved and I saw I used to watch Jack Parr and Steve Allen and Oscar Levant fascinated me as a kid because he was effortlessly witty but he had all these tics and nervous tics and the smoking and all of it and I thought well you know I thought you did.
I'm going to do it again in London next summer, but just for a limited time, if you find yourself out that way. I'll keep that in mind.
I'll keep that in mind. Sean, what a mind blow.
If you go and you're doing a play that you wanted Tony for, which again, sorry, just so quick. Yeah, you wanted Tony for, and then you get to go and you do it on the west end of London, and you've just invited Mark Hamill.
Mark Hamill, I know. That is crazy.
No, it's true, Mark. This is big for him.
This is huge. This is huge.
It's big for anybody, but it's big. I had a rule with a stage man.
I said, don't tell me who's out front. Because what happened was I came in and everyone said, you know who's in the audience? Jackie Gleason.
And I thought, oh no, because Harrigan and Hart had been pitched to Gleason and Carney in the 60s. And it didn't happen for whatever reason.
But he's really familiar with that era and that music and all of it. So, I mean, it was something I wish I had not known.
Because you want to be totally there. You don't want to be thinking,

oh, what did Jackie think of that?

Right, right, for sure, for sure.

And sometimes, you know, you can't help it

because other cast members would be like,

did you hear Meryl Streep's in the audience?

Yeah, I mean, it's terrible.

So, I mean, they would tell me,

when I could come off, they'd hand me a note

and I'd see, you know, who was there.

But that must have been probably easier

for you to do Levant than doing someone

as recognizable as Jerry Lewis, and you just killed him.

Oh, thanks.

You know what?

You know what?

He was, let me put it this way.

My review was, he was Oscar Levant, just as I remembered him.

Oh, God.

That's what my dad wrote.

Okay, so anyway.

So, I can't believe you remember that.

Did Will and Jason meet on Arrested Development? Is that where you guys met? Yeah, we did. Yeah, we did.
By the way, I'm still mad they canceled that. Everything I like gets canceled.
Yeah. And I hold grudges.
I'm still mad they canceled Square Pegs, and that was 1982. Oh, my God.
I remember that. Oh, my God.
Yeah, Buffalo Bill. Sarah Jessica Parker never would have done Sex and the City.
There you go. Buffalo Bill with Dabney Coleman.
Oh, boy, was that good. Colucci's department.
Mark, I got a question for you. When you said you had done the pilot, you got fired from Ada's Enough, is that what happened? Or you got replaced? No, they just redid it with, like I say, a different father.
Right. Well, we call that fired.
Yeah. Okay.
Yeah, sure. I was fired.
But what year, like how soon after that did Star Wars happen? Well, I think, yeah, it was probably six months later or something. So what's crazy about it is, the reason I bring it up, and I've talked about this before, is six months before I got the pilot for Arrested Development that changed my life, I got let go from a show.
They replaced my character. Actually, they just wrote them out.
And at the time, I was like, oh, it was a series regular on a sitcom. I was going to make money and all this kind of shit, and I got so bad.
And six months later, I didn't know that the universe had made space for me to do the thing the thing that would change my life and so it's very somehow i didn't become a global superstar the way you did but no no but but still it like was the thing that really propelled me and gave me you know the career i had a similar thing happen i got a part on the texas wheelers with jack elam you know that cockeyed character actor from Westerns. Now, when he did support your local sheriff, support your local gunfire, then he got to show his comedy chops.
And this pilot was an irreverent, it was like the anti-Waltons. Gary Busey was the titular head of the family because Jack comes back in the pilot pilot having been in jail for stealing a car or whatever.
But my character, Doobie, Doobie Wheeler, was, what I loved about it was, he was hilarious, but he was so serious about himself. He took himself very seriously, thought he was a womanizer, even though he was a virgin, all these things.
It was really for its time in 1974, I remember the New York Times said, possibly the finest bucolic comedy since Tobacco Road. And I said, oh man, not only is this a breakout part, but it's a comedy part because for the most part I was playing real straightforward high school students and that kind of stuff.
So I was really jazzed and it came out and we made 13 episodes. It got canceled after four episodes.
And I was devastated because I said, I'm not going to get another good part like this. Wow.
I just don't see it happening. I was really, really depressed.
But the upshot is if that had run, then I wouldn't have been able to do Star Wars. Exactly.
That's my point. And we would have had Freddy Krueger out there swinging around a lightsaber.
I mean, and that would have been, imagine all the scratch marks on Vader's cape. No, actually, it would have been Will Seltzer.
Oh, yeah? And Terry Nunn from, she was in a band, oh, I can't remember.

Yeah, Terry Nunn. Terry Nunn, she was in, not Joy Division, I don't know.
You Google it, but I mean, it was, like I say, it was cast as a set. There was no mixing and matching.
Right, right. You came as a package.
Berlin. She's the singer from Berlin.
That's it. The band Berlin.
Thank you. You know, Mark, I have, as I always say with my guests that I bring on, that I have 7,000 questions.
But I wanted to, you know, we got to let you go because it's been an hour and we promised we'd only have you for an hour here. So the, you know, all the stuff I wanted to ask you about just like, you know, coming back to The Force Awakens and what was that with J.J.
Abrams. Anyway, we'll talk about that at dinner sometime, hopefully.
But I watched The House of Usher. I thought you were incredible.
You have The Life of Chuck coming out on Netflix, which looks so good. You have The Long Walk, that Stephen King movie that comes out in 2025, which is fucking, that looks incredible.
And you've been getting all these accolades for The Wild Robot. I'm in the new SpongeBob SquarePants movie.
You're in the new SpongeBob SquarePants movie. Have you seen Wild Robot? I mean, it's funny that we should bring it up now that we're wrapping up.
I have. I've seen it.
It's so great. I heard it's fantastic.
It's so great. Look, I read the book.
This book by Peter Brown, there's a reason it was the number one bestseller in the New York Times and won all these awards. It is so perfect that I thought, please don't mess this up.
If they can capture even 20% of the charm of this book, we're on a winner. And they kept the illustrations the exact same as in the book.
The cast is beyond great. I was reading the book to the kids.
Yeah, it's amazing. But it's so effortless, and it's so meaningful in this time about tolerance and joining together for the greater good.
That's where they lost me. Yeah, to be honest.
If I'm being real, that's where they— It seemed very timely, you know, given what we're going through. It's a huge hit, and it's like getting recognized, which is great.
It's massive. It's really, really good.
I'm so lucky. Well, Mark, I just say just for me, you're such a delight, and I'm so excited that you're such a delight because myself, like so many people my age, you're such a part of just who we are and who we wanted to be, and the fact that you have maintained such a kindness and a warmth and a decency in your person, it seems, is such a relief.
And thank you for being here, buddy. Thank you for saying that.
But I have to tell you, these people, when they come up to you and talk about it, they put it in such personal terms, you know, that it helped me get through my mother's, my father's divorce or, you know, whatever it is, I never get tired of it. It's like, oh, no, let's not talk about that again.
I want to hear what they have to say, you know. I think at this point, since I'm sort of soft focus on the details, you know, because I haven't seen it that much.
And really, Luke had a light presence in the sequels. He did a silent cameo in the first one and a cameo in the last one, so I only had that middle part.
But what I'm saying is it's something that I don't take for granted, and I think how lucky I am because people say, oh, aren't you sorry that you're remembered for nothing but Luke, when in fact, I never expected to be remembered for anything. I just wanted to jump.
What an absurd thing if anybody actually says that. What an absolutely absurd fucking thing to say.
It's the most famous film in the history of entertainment. And like you said, it's that connection, and I was, I'm going to echo what Jason said, for a kid who grew up in Toronto and saw it the first time at the Pleasant Theater on Mount Pleasant in Toronto, in the city, for me to be here all these years later talking to you, the impact that what you did.
But that you're a good person, too, is just a gift. Yeah, and then on top of it, you're a gift.
It's really something that is. And I appreciate Sean mentioning Follow the House of Usher because I'm used to doing really bizarre and atypical roles in animation.
This is the first time Mike Flanagan asked me to do a character that would have been routine in animation on camera. Yeah, you were so great.
Who is this soulless, evil sociopath. Naturally, they thought of me.
Yeah, sure. I'm so grateful to Mike Flanagan.
But we watched it. I just love that.
You knocked it out of the park. I loved you in that part.
It was so unexpected and absolutely thrilling to watch. And it was really one of those things where when I read it, I thought, how am I going to do this? I usually have a slight concept of what is required of your character to make the whole thing work.
And it was a huge ensemble. Mike does these wonderful, you know, Haunting of Hill House, Haunting of Bly Manor, Midnight Mass.
So I was a huge fan of his. And I thought, even though I don't know how to do this, if he thinks I can do it, then by gosh, I'm going to do it.
But it was really scary because when I was flying up Vancouver, I still had no idea. And little by little, his wardrobe helped me pick out his wardrobe.
As I said to the hair people, this guy wants to get out of bed in the morning, just draw with one swipe of the towel, so cut it short enough so it just lays down. It doesn't stick up, just lays down.
Then they found the glasses. They found the hat.
And the last thing that came, which was really interesting, because we didn't discuss it, but we were doing a scene in the Roderick and Madeline Usher's office. Yep.
And I said, how do I convey that this guy is completely dead inside? And I just started talking like this. Well, I called him.
He didn't call us back. I got a guy looking out for him.
I didn't discuss it at the end of time. And I didn't say, I'm going to go in and do this voice.
I just end the moment, said, should I do it? And I did. And after we did a couple of setups, later in the day, Mike walked past me and just said, love the voice.

Yes.

And I said, oh, I'm home. So great.

You became a completely different person.

I love that.

Yes.

And that's so rare.

You know how exciting it is that someone thinks outside the box of what you're known for.

And I'm really lucky.

And again, he cast me in a small part in The Life of Chuck,

which, again, he said, I'm going to send you the script

based on a Stephen King novella,

and there's a part for you in it, and blah, blah, blah.

So I'm expecting, okay, you've got Stephen King,

you've got Mike Flanagan.

This is going to be the horror epic of all time.

I'm telling you guys, it is the sweetest, poignant,

warm story of a boy named Chuck at four different stages of his life. He grows up to be Tom Hiddleston.
But it's so atypical of both of them. And I said to them when we made it, I said to Trevor Macy, the producer, I said, I don't know how we're going to promote this because it's indescribable.
I mean, you have to see it to get it. Yeah, I can't wait to see it.
It's amazing. And, you know, I saw it at his house once, just in a little room.
But when I saw it at the Toronto Film Festival with an audience, it was a revelation because it wasn't in competition, but it was voted favorite film, because the audience becomes such a part of it that things that you didn't expect to get reactions got reactions. They laughed.
They applauded. People were in tears.
I mean, it's really special. What's that one called? It's called The Life of Chuck, and it's told backwards.
It's Act 3, Act 2, Act 1. And I'm only in Act 1 at the end of the picture.
But Tom is great. This boy that plays him at age 12, Benjamin Pajak.
Remember that name, because this kid, he can sing, he dances. He was the Ron Howard part in the revival of Music Man on Broadway, Hugh Jackman.

And I'm telling you, I mean, I just,

I wish you were my real grandson.

He's just phenomenal.

I love that.

I can't wait to see it.

Yeah, that and- That comes out in May.

Fantastic.

In May.

And then The Long Walk, I can't wait,

because that's a crazy concept.

By the way, I read that, I'm thinking,

ugh, this, because I always read the books

before they've even seen the script. It's excruciating.
It's so horrible. Yeah, it's 100 teenage boys are forced to participate like in an annual thing where they have to walk at a constant pace or they get killed, right, or something like that.
Yeah, there's people ready to shoot them in the head. I mean, I'm telling you, it's so gross.
I thought, there's no way. I mean, I'll watch it it maybe but i can't do something like this and again my son read and said are you nuts this is fantastic you gotta do it yeah yeah yeah yeah but just the violence the gun violence alone now luckily it's now they do it cgi where you don't have to do squibs and everybody goes right right right cleaned up after each take because the bug goes flying but i mean it is really gross is really gross.
I love that. I love it.
Well, you've got a lot of good stuff coming up. And, by the way, if you have any Star Wars memorabilia you want to get rid of, please send it over.
Yeah. And when specifically are you going to do Oscar in London? July through September at the Barbican Theater.
Like three months. Like, yeah, well, no, seven weeks.

Okay, seven weeks.

The end of July, two weeks.

Okay.

Sounds like fun.

Summer in England.

Yeah, yeah.

There we go.

Mark, it's been an honor and a privilege to talk to you.

I echo what these guys say.

I just can't even believe I'm talking to you.

This is crazy.

Well, listen, when I listened to you guys do

with Steve Martin and Martin Short, I said, well, after this, I've got to be a letdown. Nobody can top those two.
It was one of the best episodes you've done. You've been such a joy.
You hit the peak, sir. Such a joy.
Thank you for joining us, Mark. Thank you, Mark.
Thanks for having me. What a thrill.
If you ever get hungry, call me and have a meal. Goodbye.
Thanks, Mark. What a kind man you are.

Bye, buddy.

Bye.

Bye, hon.

Hey.

Well, Sean, are you going to be all right?

Do you need to mop, you need to towel off or?

Yes, I do.

I was sweating a little bit the whole time.

I mean, my Lord.

Isn't that crazy?

He was supposed to come on for a long time.

Now what?

You just couldn't.

Now what?

I know. I'm done.
Harrison Ford. You just had Mark Allen.
Now what? I mean, I guess you can make your way through the cast. Of course, Harrison would be amazing.
Yeah. Carrie would be hard to book, I'm sure.
She would like that job. You want to say cut that now or no? She would love it.
She would love that job. She would love that.
But I to ask him about, you know, the fact that actors, we kind of measure our lives in like milestone of jobs, right? We all talk, I was talking about like, I was doing this at that time and this time. And for him, Star Wars never, there's no end to that milestone.
Like he reprised Luke's on Mandalorian with Jon Favreau, you know? Oh, yeah. Like he is so open and willing to share, to not shy away from it and to embrace it, which I think is really important.
Yeah, and he loves the legacy of it. He's not frustrated that that was then and this is now.
Yeah, I like that. I like that about him.
You know, sometimes they play it down like, yeah, yeah,

and you're like,

no, no, no,

it's a great thing.

Yeah, like, own it.

Yeah, he was the star of,

is the star of

the biggest film,

most famous film

in the history

of our business.

Totally.

It's just a remarkable thing

and thank God

he's proud of it.

I know.

Incredible.

Which is your favorite film of all the films, Shani? Well, the Empire Strikes Back is pretty special. Yeah? Yeah.
I mean, I live for all of them but like... What was the thing about Empire Strikes Back? It was just, I don't know, it was a little more sophisticated.
It was a little more... We'll turn it back into a bye here.
A little... There's a little more...
Oh no, I was going to do a special one. No, because I know a lot of people felt like that was, well, A New Hope is the first one, so it's like the first time you see it, so it's amazing.
Yeah, huge, huge. Empire Strikes Back is an amazing cinematic feat, and people weren't, they didn't love as much, and this is a very special Return of the Jedi.
Night, Jedi. Jedi,

Jedi. We will allow.

I know,

but it's Star Wars.

It's allowed for you.

All right,

fine.

Smart.

Nice.

Smart.

Yes.

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