"Bill Gates"

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Speaker 2 Oh, wait, I got a quick one. I got a quick dad joke.

Speaker 2 What kind of bees make milk?

Speaker 1 Hmm.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 I don't know. Boobies.

Speaker 1 Boo?

Speaker 1 Boobies.

Speaker 3 Boobies, yeah, I guess.

Speaker 1 Okay, I'll go with it. Sure.
I think it's funny.

Speaker 1 Fuck you wanted to say no so bad. You wanted to say no.
I wanted to say no.

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Speaker 3 You have violated the pun law.

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Speaker 3 Another dad joke, please.

Speaker 1 Sure. Go ahead, Sean.

Speaker 2 My friend keeps saying, cheer up, man. It could be worse.
You could be stuck underground in a hole full of water. I know he means, well.

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Speaker 1 What about, what about this?

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Speaker 1 No.

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Speaker 1 Ah, he got me. He got me.
Nice reading.

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Okay. It's pretty good.
Guys.

Speaker 3 I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Speaker 3 We three fools are incredibly lucky at times on this show to be able to ask some questions and hear some answers from folks who wouldn't otherwise spend even a second with us.

Speaker 3 Today's one of those days.

Speaker 3 Our next guest is one of the most important people to have been born in our generation.

Speaker 3 He is responsible for some of the most transformative ideas, technologies, and events the world has ever known and probably ever will.

Speaker 3 These discoveries, advancements, and innovations have made parts of our lives and the world around us far different than anyone could have even ever imagined just 40 years ago.

Speaker 3 His work has brought him enormous wealth, which is enabling him to once again change and help our planet and our lives in ways that are exciting confusing and in some ways life-saving please welcome mr bill gates oh my gosh oh okay

Speaker 1 yeah

Speaker 3 hello mr gates hey guys wow how lucky are we that we've got you now this is fun

Speaker 3 we've got questions now we've got questions first of all it looks like you're sitting in a high chair i am oh he's well this is a guy who probably does well i was gonna say the guy does a lot of podcasts i was thinking why are you i know you've got a very thank God you've got a book coming out.

Speaker 3 I can't not wait to read it. But is that the only reason you're talking to us dummies? I mean, why, why, you've got so much important stuff to do.

Speaker 2 It's true.

Speaker 3 Sparing an hour for us is generous, but maybe foolish.

Speaker 4 It's

Speaker 4 relaxing.

Speaker 1 So far.

Speaker 3 So we're not making you nervous at all.

Speaker 1 That's good. So far.
That's good. Jason, I also can't wait for you to not read his book.
But

Speaker 1 Bill Gates, welcome to the podcast. And I say that not because he won't be interested, just he barely knows how to read.

Speaker 1 And I will say it is so exciting having you here as somebody who has been responsible for not just innovations, but just, you know, the impact that what you have done over the years has been incredible.

Speaker 1 And not just in technology, et cetera, and

Speaker 1 really being on the cutting edge of that for years, but all the philanthropic work you've done. I want to, I didn't know you were going to be here today, but I've been a big fan of your work in the

Speaker 4 philanthropic area.

Speaker 1 You've been a leader in that. You've really set a tone.
So I applaud you and I thank you. And I wish more people would

Speaker 1 take your cue.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Well, he's setting a great example.

Speaker 3 I think they will.

Speaker 1 I hope they will. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Are they?

Speaker 3 I mean, I know you did something, what is it called?

Speaker 4 The giving pledge. Yeah.

Speaker 3 The giving pledge, yes, with Warren Buffett, right?

Speaker 3 Are guys

Speaker 3 men and women following along with that?

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 4 we have about 250 people who've made the commitment to give away the majority of their wealth.

Speaker 4 And we, you know, we get together and learn from each other because philanthropy is actually a little confusing. You don't have like a rating system or profit

Speaker 4 and it brings you into a new area. And so

Speaker 4 we can inspire each other and hopefully anybody who's got lots of money feels like pitching in. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And because wasn't it, I think Warren Buffett said, because if you can't figure out how to live off of $500 million, there's a problem.

Speaker 1 Isn't that what he said? Isn't that part of that pact? That's right. I think I read that.

Speaker 1 I know, which is funny because I was thinking about writing him a letter and asking him if he'd give me $500 million to see if I could do that. Yeah, just a little experiment.
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 As an experiment.

Speaker 1 So, Mr. Gates,

Speaker 1 I'd like to ask you if it's possible, Jason, sorry, I don't mean to hijack this, but

Speaker 3 be my guest. I've got some questions here if you run out.

Speaker 1 I'm sure,

Speaker 1 at risk of

Speaker 1 you having said this a million times before, would you talk a little bit about the genesis of Microsoft?

Speaker 1 Because I don't know if I've ever really heard a clear story of how it came to be, how you had the idea for it, and

Speaker 1 how it came into fruition.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I was super lucky.

Speaker 4 You know, my parents found me a little confusing. in terms of I was very good at some things and not good at other things.
So they sent me to a private school and that school got a computer.

Speaker 4 So when I was 13,

Speaker 4 I had my first exposure and I got kind of obsessed with figuring it out, what it could do.

Speaker 4 And so even during high school, together with a friend Paul Allen, I got thousands of hours of time learning how to write software.

Speaker 1 So forgive me for interrupting. What year was that that you got first exposed to the computer? And where?

Speaker 4 That's 1968. I'm up in Seattle, Washington at an excellent private school.

Speaker 4 And then Paul's reading and he sees that a computer is going to be done on a chip, the microprocessor made by people like Intel, and that those chips are going to get twice as good every year or two.

Speaker 4 And so I say to Paul that that's exponential improvement, that then computers will be almost free and will they'll need a lot of software. We should do that software.

Speaker 4 And he follows when I go back to Harvard because my parents wanted me to go to college

Speaker 4 He follows me there to kind of bug me and say well this revolution's gonna happen.

Speaker 4 Let's get going and finally when the first personal computer comes out in late 1974 I drop out and Paul and I found the company and you told Steve Ballmer to stay behind finish his education because you're going to need him later.

Speaker 4 Yeah, in fact, he shows up about four years into the company and he's the other person who plays an unbelievable role.

Speaker 4 I did manage to catch him in the middle of business school so I got him to drop out of business school.

Speaker 1 There you go.

Speaker 1 So you see these

Speaker 1 computers in the sort of the late 60s that you're first exposed to are

Speaker 1 by comparison,

Speaker 1 of course to today, but maybe even to the computers in the mid-70s, rudimentary at best, probably.

Speaker 4 Yeah,

Speaker 4 also very expensive. And so, you know, we only big companies and the government have them.
And so we would have to sneak in at night to get access. And,

Speaker 4 you know, we kept saying to people, these things are going to be cheap, but

Speaker 4 they didn't agree. And so we got to be the very first people.

Speaker 4 And then you have people like Steve Jobs at Apple, where they're doing the hardware, the Apple II, and we're doing the software. So the Apple computer came with our software.

Speaker 1 Oh, it did.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And was it,

Speaker 3 correct me if I'm wrong here, but I've, for some reason, always thought that one of the major things that for small brains like me that really was like, oh,

Speaker 3 because I remember computers used to, there was the coding thing. And then all of a sudden, one day there were the, there was, I think it was Windows, which was, it was just point and click stuff.

Speaker 3 And it was like, oh, this is a whole different thing. Was that not you, Mr.

Speaker 4 Gates? Yes, absolutely. So the idea of the graphics interface where you

Speaker 4 use images, not just characters, that's pioneered at Xerox, which made a lot of money on copying machines. And they didn't manage to make a good product.

Speaker 4 So it's actually Apple with the Macintosh and Microsoft with Windows that takes this idea of graphics interface and takes it to the masses. And

Speaker 4 now everybody knows that's

Speaker 4 the way you use it.

Speaker 1 You just point and click.

Speaker 3 But what we don't know is that what you're pointing on underneath that is a bunch of code that you're activating when you hit a click.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's actually pretty complicated underneath, which is why we had to hire lots of smart engineers and

Speaker 1 write a lot of code.

Speaker 1 But I will say, well, I kind of have two questions, which is A, so you learn on these rudimentary huge computers that are only the government and educational institutions have, et cetera.

Speaker 1 So then, so you and Paul Allen realize that, okay, this is the future.

Speaker 1 Are there people who can teach you how to do the stuff you did, or did you have to figure a lot of that stuff out yourselves as you were going?

Speaker 4 We pretty much had to figure it out. I mean, we did hire a few adults, you know, who knew things like finance and accounting.

Speaker 4 But because we were at the forefront of a revolution, you know, this idea of, okay,

Speaker 4 how do you manage these people? How do you price this stuff? You know, we, and we decided we'd sell all over the world. So I have to build a team in Japan and Europe and deal with all the languages.

Speaker 4 I have to say it was super fun. And because we were right, these computers got so popular.

Speaker 4 You know, we made enough money, we just kept hiring more and more people

Speaker 4 and eventually built Windows and Office, you know, which had Excel spreadsheet and Microsoft Word. And those became...

Speaker 4 So by the late 90s,

Speaker 4 we are doing well.

Speaker 4 And it's kind of a standard way that people use personal computers.

Speaker 1 But sorry, Sean, if I just, just on that last little bit of the code stuff, and

Speaker 1 you touched on that, so that Apple products came with your software built in, and then you guys split, and it became kind of like the, and forgive me for the comparison, you became like the VHS Betamax.

Speaker 1 It was either or. It was like you either did this or you did that.

Speaker 1 Was there ever a discussion between you and Steve Jobs about, hey, let's continue in this partnership using yours,

Speaker 1 et cetera, et cetera? Did you guys, or

Speaker 1 was there a moment that you split?

Speaker 4 Because we're always pure software,

Speaker 4 the only competition is that Apple does its own operating system, which competes with Windows. But we write software on the Macintosh.

Speaker 4 In fact, we had as many people as Steve Jobs did when he's doing the Macintosh because we do our word processor, we do our spreadsheet,

Speaker 4 and it was amazing because

Speaker 4 Steve did the Mac, that was wonderful. Then he leaves Apple.
Apple's being very mismanaged. When he comes back, I reach a deal with him where we actually invest in Apple and commit to do our software.

Speaker 4 And then he runs that company so well.

Speaker 4 That going from the verge of failure, it actually becomes the most valuable company in the world, even slightly more valuable than Microsoft.

Speaker 1 That's amazing.

Speaker 4 So we ended up working together. And then in the last few years, when he was sick,

Speaker 4 we got to reflect on our lives and talk to each other quite a bit. We were kind of competitors.
I mean, he would criticize Windows pretty brutally, but that's okay.

Speaker 4 But his skill set, which was kind of design and user interface, he was not an engineer. And so our,

Speaker 4 you know, my skill is very much as an engineer. So we appreciated each other.

Speaker 1 You know, of course.

Speaker 2 Was there a lot of competition, though? Like, there had to be

Speaker 2 when you're, when you're sitting in your garage or wherever you were with Paul, thinking, you know, designing this and coming up with this and all that stuff, back then you didn't have the

Speaker 2 people didn't know what you were doing, right? Everybody knows what everybody's doing now. And so you didn't, you, you had this kind of secrecy so you could protect yourself.

Speaker 2 But as it got, as it grew and became the thing that it became, how do you protect yourself? And how did you protect yourself from competitors? And was Apple the only competitor?

Speaker 4 Because Microsoft wasn't about any one piece of software, not just Windows, not just Office. We were doing Xbox, which had games.

Speaker 4 We thought of ourselves as a software factory and we wanted to be faster than anyone else and have lower priced software than anyone else.

Speaker 4 And so the other people doing software found it pretty intimidating

Speaker 4 that we moved at that speed.

Speaker 4 And that's why when Steve does the Macintosh, he comes to us and says, Hey, are you willing to bet on this?

Speaker 4 You know, can we work on this together?

Speaker 4 It got. quite competitive.

Speaker 4 Eventually, other great companies like Google come along, and they're also very good at hiring smart people.

Speaker 4 And there's been room, you know, if you think of what are the most valuable companies in the world today,

Speaker 4 it's all these companies that ushered in this digital revolution.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I was going to say, because now you have, instead of Google, Microsoft, and Apple, you have 200 AI companies now because people see the future much much more quickly now than they did then.

Speaker 1 Sean, tell me, Mr. Gates, you're an Ask Jeeves guy, right? Like, that's been your whole

Speaker 3 Mr. Gates, do you remember having conversations with

Speaker 1 Paul or Steve or

Speaker 3 any of your contemporaries at the time? Do you remember sitting there having conversations with them and allow yourself the imagination for what the future could bring? And were there any things that

Speaker 3 were worrisome or exciting like you hear about the conversations that are happening now regarding AI, where we're kind of on the doorstep of another big move.

Speaker 3 Do you remember having those concerns back then? Were there any?

Speaker 4 Yeah, so the digital revolution with PCs and internet, we thought of as very empowering. And so you could say we were kind of naive in thinking this was all good.

Speaker 4 In fact, when we worried, we were worried about what we called the digital divide, that having access was so valuable that we should make sure that schools in the inner city and poor countries had the internet and the the pc it's only when social networking comes along that this kind of oh isn't it always for the good to give people new capabilities we realized wow you know the social criticism the waste of time that in some ways We were playing to human weaknesses that you seek out outrage and that kind of can drive people apart.

Speaker 4 And now, you know, that we've seen that those advances aren't always good.

Speaker 4 Now, with AI, which is far more powerful than social networking, we're going, wow, how do we shape this thing to get the good, which is definitely there, but avoid the bad stuff?

Speaker 4 And it's a little bit scary right now.

Speaker 1 Well, it's a little bit trying to put the genie back in the bottle, A,

Speaker 1 unfortunately, with the social networks

Speaker 1 and also just with phones in general and their impacts. You know, as a father of

Speaker 1 three boys under the age of 16 and younger, I would ask you, and I know your kids are a little bit older, and

Speaker 1 I, look,

Speaker 1 I don't like

Speaker 1 answering hypothetical questions myself, but I'm going to ask you a hypothetical, which is, and feel free to not answer it.

Speaker 1 If your kids, if your kids were teenagers again, if they were adolescents, if they were 11, 12, 13, 14, would you let them have access to social media?

Speaker 4 Yeah, my youngest, I stopped her from having a cell phone until she was 14 and she was quite upset because the other kids had access it works a lot better if groups of parents or even the school come in and saying hey during the school day this is pretty distracting and australia is now trying to pass a set of rules you know there's a book by jonathan height called the anxious generational

Speaker 4 okay good good you know and his point that we're kind of overprotecting kids in the real world and under-protecting them in the digital world, I think he's got a super good point there, and we've got to step up on that.

Speaker 1 I took his advice, and I said to my boys, to my teenage boys, I said,

Speaker 1 I will give you a lot of freedoms in the real world that are commensurate with your reduction in your time in the digital world.

Speaker 1 And I will give you much more leeway to do stuff and spend time in real time and give you a later curfew on the weekend, you know, sort of 11.30, if you will, or whatever that is, if you guys, if I see a market reduction in your time online.

Speaker 1 But what I dream about, this is what I'm getting to, what I dream of is six months of no social media on this planet. And what would that do in a sort of a social, in a reset?

Speaker 1 Imagine a world where we didn't have

Speaker 1 that.

Speaker 1 I personally think that we would be in a much better place.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's when you see how polarized we are and that, you know, even I,

Speaker 4 if there's some article criticizing somebody I don't like, I'm like, oh, yeah, I want to be outraged

Speaker 4 against the people I think have shortcomings. And so, you know, you want an algorithm that brings us together and, you know, maybe a moratorium would help us get there.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 And we will be right back.

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Speaker 1 My, you know, as a kid who grew up in the 70s, as a Gen Xer, you know,

Speaker 1 your rise and your

Speaker 1 significance in the world coincided with sort of my

Speaker 1 teenage years and understanding that kind of thing. And it felt like the first time that we had things like the, you know, the Fortune list or the Forbes or the richest people in the world.
And

Speaker 1 your name was in and out at the top of that for many, many years. And

Speaker 1 I can't imagine just how absurd that must be on a certain level. Did you have those moments of like, not even pinch me, but of like,

Speaker 1 is this me?

Speaker 1 It feels almost abstract, how bizarre. Did you have that at all?

Speaker 3 Or just leave me alone?

Speaker 4 Well, it's definitely

Speaker 4 wild. You know, at a young age, you know, I was in my 30s when I became the richest person.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 my parents, fortunately, you know, their values helped anchor me. And they were always saying, okay,

Speaker 4 you know,

Speaker 4 to whom much is given,

Speaker 4 much is expected. You know, so I did start in my 40s to really study

Speaker 4 philanthropy, you know, Rockefeller, Carnegie, what had they done, and try and figure out,

Speaker 4 you know, could I be as careful about giving it back? And then in my 50s, I retired from Microsoft and moved over to do foundation work full-time. But yes, it's bizarre.

Speaker 4 Having close friends who really know you, who can laugh about your success, I think, you know, does help keep you grounded.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 That transition to philanthropy, I'm sure there are many parts of it that are even more complicated than

Speaker 3 your life beforehand.

Speaker 3 Many, many challenges. Can you speak about those? I'm sure there's a lot of it that is much more enjoyable too, probably most of it.

Speaker 3 How is that feeling, that transition?

Speaker 4 Well, I loved being an individual contributor in my 20s and then managing Microsoft in my 30s where you're just very hands-on and you can say, my product is selling well, or this one is not.

Speaker 4 How do we fix that?

Speaker 4 And so it's a real switch

Speaker 4 where you're not having that immediate market feedback to go and say, hey, why do children die? How many children die? Can we reduce that? And then I had to learn about poor countries and vaccines.

Speaker 4 But I have to say, it's been

Speaker 4 as fulfilling.

Speaker 4 In the turn of the century, we have 10 million children dying every year. And because we got out new vaccines and worked with partners, that's now down below $5 million a year.

Speaker 4 And if we keep doing our work well,

Speaker 4 including governments caring about poor countries, we can cut that in half again to $2.5 million.

Speaker 3 Sorry,

Speaker 3 have you found a way to make it an attractive

Speaker 3 idea for countries to come on and partner with you that goes beyond just the obvious ethical and moral pull of it?

Speaker 3 Is there a GDP component that you can dangle in front of some of these more capitalistic-minded countries that get them to the table a little bit better?

Speaker 4 Yeah, that's a super good point.

Speaker 4 Of course, the moral argument of the golden rule,

Speaker 4 helping people everywhere is our strongest argument, but that alone... isn't going to get us there.
You know, we had some of the generals in the U.S.

Speaker 4 Army saying, hey, if you don't help these countries out, then we'll have to go to war and you'll have to increase our budget.

Speaker 4 So that the foreign aid budget, by creating stability, it avoids the awful war. And also, you know, if you lift people up economically, like Asia today

Speaker 4 you know, buys a lot of American stuff, movies, drugs, jets, software, you know, you name it. So our mutual

Speaker 4 success, you know, has been amazing. You know, the two countries we defeat in World War II were generous enough to them that they become the second and third biggest economy.

Speaker 4 And we engage in mutually beneficial trade. You know, Japan shows us how to make quality products.
And now we want to extend that, you know, and get... you know,

Speaker 4 Asia's doing well. India's getting rich and eventually they don't need aid if you help them out.
And so you only have

Speaker 4 mostly countries in Africa that still really deserve this kind of support.

Speaker 3 Are you finding that you're having the same kind of messaging, language success as you try to encourage them to come along with environmental adjustments as well,

Speaker 3 that it's mutually beneficial from a business standpoint, et cetera?

Speaker 4 Yeah, so

Speaker 4 environmentally, a lot of these poor countries are very beautiful. And we all have to deal with climate change.

Speaker 4 Sadly, it's these African countries that didn't contribute to that problem at all because they're outdoor farmers near the equator. They're the ones that are suffering the most.

Speaker 4 The countries we need to really change

Speaker 4 their emissions are these middle-income countries. So China, Brazil, now India.
And they expect us to help them by inventing really inexpensive ways to go green.

Speaker 4 And so the biggest hope for the environmental stuff is innovation.

Speaker 4 If the green stuff is really expensive, even the rich countries are kind of saying, hey, don't make me buy an electric car if it costs more. Don't make me buy an electric heat pump.
And

Speaker 4 so, you know, it's going to have to be all of us saying we're in this together, it's one planet, but also a lot of innovation because nobody can agree if it's expensive, who should pay for it. Right.

Speaker 3 A friend of mine who's sort of a friend of ours, friend of the show, Willie, our buddy,

Speaker 3 he mentioned that

Speaker 3 with this big round of deregulation that supposedly is on its way, that there may be a good spin to it in that the amount of innovation that is needed to really make a big move in an environment,

Speaker 3 a part of that, it's necessary for private to be spending money there as well as just federal money.

Speaker 3 And so by deregulating, you give those companies more money to spend in R ⁇ D for these environmental things. Is that just spin

Speaker 3 for the business?

Speaker 1 And I'll let you guess what business he's in.

Speaker 1 He's a great guy.

Speaker 3 What do we think about that?

Speaker 3 Is that spin or is there some validity to that?

Speaker 4 No, there's definitely some validity. For example, if you want to...
build an electricity transmission line, you often have to go through almost a decade of approvals.

Speaker 4 And of course, that line, if anybody blocks it, then it doesn't work at all.

Speaker 4 And so we need to have more collective action as we try and change, you know, move away from coal, electricity to other things, which is sun and wind and nuclear and a variety of things.

Speaker 4 We don't want to get rid of all the regulations because part of the reason the U.S. is so beautiful, we preserve lands, we've cleaned up our waters better than any other country.

Speaker 4 But it is absolutely fair to say that many of these environmental reviews are delaying projects that we need in order to solve climate change.

Speaker 3 Gotcha. So government could get out of the way a little bit because we got to work fast, right? But not completely?

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 4 So we're going to have to strike that balance.

Speaker 1 Well, it's so hard not to be cynical when you have things like, and you were just touching on the idea, Jason, it was part of picked in your question, which is this, that, yeah, of course, there is, you know, what you called the ethical or moral pull, but it always comes down to economics, right?

Speaker 1 It's always sadly, it's the driver of everything.

Speaker 1 It's like when the government went to war on the cigarette companies, it wasn't because they wanted us to stop smoking, it's because they didn't want to pay for people who were sick.

Speaker 1 Unfortunately, it's got to be a win-win. Ultimately, otherwise,

Speaker 1 they couldn't care less. And I think that there is a societal issue in America.
Mr. Gates, I haven't revealed this to you yet.
I'm Canadian by birth.

Speaker 1 And I'm sorry to drop it on you like that. You had a reveal party on that.

Speaker 1 But, you know, I think that there is a societal,

Speaker 1 there are some societal issues.

Speaker 1 And I am American as well, and I've lived here for a number of years, and I love this country. I truly, truly do.
And my children are all American. It's an incredible experience.

Speaker 1 But I do think that there are some issues societally in this country

Speaker 1 that come up that have to do with that.

Speaker 1 Unfortunately, and I know that, look, I'm not naive, but unfortunately, a lot of things in this country are driven by people wanting to, what's theirs, and there isn't this idea that we're only as strong as our weakest link.

Speaker 1 It just, and if any, and if anything, it keeps getting reinforced in different ways in elections, et cetera, in the way that you look at California should have buried power lines.

Speaker 1 There's no question about it, but nobody wants to pay for that kind of thing. And so, there are all sorts of things like that,

Speaker 1 and people just won't do it. And I don't know how we can change minds in this country, but it is strange.
And people will vote

Speaker 1 against their self-interest in this country in ways that are staggering.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I'm giving you all these big picture things because I imagine, Mr. Gates, these are the kinds of things that you think about because you're dealing in macro.

Speaker 1 Am I right with that?

Speaker 4 No, absolutely.

Speaker 4 When I think about the health system or

Speaker 4 climate, you know, we've got to solve these problems.

Speaker 4 You know, we saw that when we weren't ready for the pandemic,

Speaker 4 millions of people died who shouldn't have died.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Go ahead, Sean. I was going to say, I love all the talking about medicine.
I love all the medical things you're doing.

Speaker 2 Do I call you Bill? Do I call you Mr. Gates?

Speaker 4 Sir, Bill's fantastic.

Speaker 2 Okay, William.

Speaker 1 It's a great name, Bill. I do think you should keep it.

Speaker 3 It is what you've been thinking about. It is a great name.

Speaker 1 Hey, Trey, we could call you Trey. Trey.
That was my nickname.

Speaker 4 My family still calls me that because my dad was Bill.

Speaker 2 Wait, where'd you get Trey?

Speaker 1 The third. The third.

Speaker 1 tray is the third oh hey tray so hey tray i love all the medical things you're involved with um

Speaker 2 and so what's your favorite one you're working on and

Speaker 2 how has all being around all the innovation of this medical world that you're involved with changed the way you live your life whether that's food diet you know diet or whatever it is that we don't know about

Speaker 4 We're learning a lot. You know, we've learned that sleep is very important.

Speaker 4 On nutrition, you know, we're still kind of confused about

Speaker 4 other than eating too many calories, what counts. You know, the work of our foundation is very focused on the diseases that are still huge in poor countries.
So HIV, malaria.

Speaker 4 You know, we literally still have polio out there, even though we got rid of it in the U.S. and kids aren't dying and being paralyzed.
But we're down to just a few countries.

Speaker 4 And so the only disease we've ever gotten rid of is smallpox. And now polio is very close to being the second on that list.
So I put a lot of effort into that.

Speaker 4 With HIV, you've got a million Americans living with it, 40 million worldwide. We'd like to make it so we can actually cure it rather than you having to take medicine the rest of your life.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And so we're making good progress on that.

Speaker 2 Is there any truth to the fact?

Speaker 2 Because I hear like they actually, you know, you hear these conspiracies that there actually is a cure for HIV or there is a cure for all these things, but they suppress it because there's too much money in pharmaceuticals.

Speaker 4 No, I wish that was true because then I would take the cure and, you know,

Speaker 1 right, exactly.

Speaker 1 Do you know about this? Gosh, now it just occurred to me now that you're here.

Speaker 1 I'm going to call you Bill as well, if that's okay. Good.

Speaker 1 Bill,

Speaker 1 I know, because I've been reading online and a lot of people from their basement say that you're putting chips in our brain, which is amazing.

Speaker 1 I love that. I love when people, when I hear that, and I always, my answer to that is always, to what end?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I know. Like, why do you think that? Why does he want to guide my head? Yeah, I expect it.
Anytime I hear somebody say the government, I'm like, all right, we're done.

Speaker 1 Right. But

Speaker 1 do you hear any of that? Does it make its way to you? Do you laugh about it sometimes? Does it alarm you when you hear these people saying Bill Gates is trying to put a chip into everybody's brain?

Speaker 4 Yeah, well, I've had people come up to me on the street and yell at me that, you know, why am I tracking them?

Speaker 1 But why are you?

Speaker 4 What am I going to do with that information?

Speaker 4 You know, so you do have to laugh about it, but it's also at the same time tragic that millions who would have been saved by the COVID vaccine stayed away from it because of all the online misinformation that they were faced with.

Speaker 4 And, you know, whenever you get a pandemic saying, oh, there must be some evil genius behind this yeah that's not very adaptive um

Speaker 4 you know and and we're not really ready for the next pandemic which will come hard to say when it's going to come but uh

Speaker 4 you know i i i thought that would make vaccines more popular yeah um and so there's some work work to be done here

Speaker 3 So, Bill,

Speaker 3 with all the AI stuff that's being talked about, and I'm sure if you're like me, you get a a little kind of tune out a bit because there's so much of it.

Speaker 3 Is there,

Speaker 3 well, I'm sure there's many parts.

Speaker 3 What's the most promising

Speaker 3 use of AI that you can see

Speaker 3 coming soon? I'm sure it's going to fix a lot of things, but is there something that might be on the doorstep that you can talk about?

Speaker 4 Well, I'd say the most promising work is health and education. Even today, if you get like

Speaker 4 a set of blood tests back or an MRI test back, you know, you get a confusing medical bill, you really should stick it in the AI and say, explain this to me, like a sixth grader, because it is so good at doing that.

Speaker 4 Okay. And so I'd use it all the time.
Helping you, helping people with medical things.

Speaker 4 And then in education, having a personal tutor that gets what you're confused about the level that you're at and knows how to encourage you, you know, whether it's in math or writing papers.

Speaker 4 And, you know, this, it's early days and it's being rolled out.

Speaker 4 And this will not only be profound for the United States, but in Africa, you know, where we have fewer teachers and doctors than anywhere in the world.

Speaker 4 And so a chance for us to give them you know access to the kind of health that we take for granted,

Speaker 4 AI, in those two domains, we should push forward, you know, get the accuracy up and

Speaker 4 really surprise people by improving the health system a lot.

Speaker 3 And this question is coming from a person who has no idea how research and development happens in

Speaker 3 medical science. But

Speaker 3 I think that

Speaker 3 you get an idea, then you got to run it through a modeling thing, and you got to test it all out.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 am I right in assuming that AI can make this much, much faster such that we can track down maybe what the right equation is to fix cancer or any other of these credibly damaging things?

Speaker 3 That maybe the process of elimination can happen much faster where we can reasonably expect to have some cures for some of these uncurable things, perhaps, in our lifetime?

Speaker 4 Absolutely. And, you know, medicine has made a lot of progress.
I mean, heart disease is way down. You know, cancer, we have a lot of things in the pipeline, but AI is going to accelerate all of that.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 4 You know,

Speaker 4 I work in Alzheimer's, and there's some great tools coming along because nobody should want to have that. And even, you know, with HIV, this idea of the cure,

Speaker 4 the fact we can get it out maybe

Speaker 4 in four years instead of eight, we'll use AI to help accelerate that.

Speaker 1 That's wow.

Speaker 1 We'll be right back.

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Speaker 2 And back to the show.

Speaker 3 Your mom was really influential with you for

Speaker 3 sort of planting this early seed of of philanthropy and giving back and

Speaker 3 using what you're given

Speaker 3 in the right way.

Speaker 3 Is that correct? Do you want to speak about that at all?

Speaker 4 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when you see your parents behave, that's more influential than what your parents say.

Speaker 4 And so they volunteered in the community.

Speaker 4 They gave what they could. And then as my mom saw.

Speaker 3 She's big in the United Way, yes.

Speaker 4 Exactly. She put a lot of her time into that, both in our

Speaker 4 in our city, but also at the

Speaker 4 federal level. And

Speaker 4 so she was always telling me, okay,

Speaker 4 you know, you've got to run a United Way campaign and get back. Sadly,

Speaker 4 she died pretty young about 30 years ago.

Speaker 4 And it was my dad who actually, when I was still full-time at Microsoft, ran the foundation and got it going for the first 10 years and kind of set the culture in a very positive way.

Speaker 4 So he did get to see and participate in, you know, all those dictates that go back to my childhood.

Speaker 3 Are your kids being as observational as you were and benefiting from it like you did?

Speaker 4 Yeah, no, well, my kids, you know, are both lucky, although being a child of somebody well known, you know, I'm sure your kids experienced some of it.

Speaker 4 It's got a lot of pluses, but some minuses as well.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 are they following your great example, I guess is my question?

Speaker 4 Well, you know,

Speaker 4 I'm giving them as a percentage of the wealth, a pretty small percentage. I mean, in absolute, it's a lot.
And I do believe that, you know, they'll have their own careers and they'll be very generous.

Speaker 4 with what they're doing. But I didn't decide that we would take that wealth and pass it down.

Speaker 4 You know, 95% goes out through the foundation uh and and yet you know i'm super happy with how hard they work and their values you know my wife melinda did a great job uh raising the kids and it's worked out well yeah amazing um what about i want to know like about about that gut probe in a pill like you just eat a pill like describe that to me because i just read headlines about it i didn't really know anything about it what is that technology and what is it used for probe and a pill yeah like you eat a pill and it probes your guts.

Speaker 1 Oh, boy.

Speaker 4 Yeah, so digestion is super complicated. And that's why these nutritional fads come along.

Speaker 4 And the New Yorker cartoon said, you better adopt this new nutritional fad quickly before they prove it doesn't work.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 4 what happens is that in your gut, there's a lot of bacteria they call the microbiome. And we're just now, as you swallow this capsule and it absorbs all of those bacteria, we see what's going on.

Speaker 4 We finally understand what's going on. And so, our foundation works on malnutrition.

Speaker 4 These big pharmaceutical companies like Eli Lilly work on overnutrition.

Speaker 4 And it turns out that we work together on the research because the same complex circuitry that allows poor kids to be malnourished.

Speaker 4 In the U.S., we have, you know, horrible levels of childhood obesity.

Speaker 4 And so, as we're learning that, you know, new drugs like these GLP-1 obesity drugs that as they get cheaper are going to have a profound effect, you know, that's the type of innovation coming out.

Speaker 4 And yet, you know, we didn't understand that until very recently.

Speaker 1 But we had, and Sean's still mourning

Speaker 1 the new ban on red dye number three, because that's been such a staple in his diet, as you can probably tell.

Speaker 3 He can't identify the cherry and the strawberry flavor stuff.

Speaker 1 His brain is basically liquefied. But I will say,

Speaker 1 you know, you talk about that

Speaker 1 about obesity and childhood obesity.

Speaker 1 What is it? What is the difference in this country? Again, it sounds like I've been attacking this country. I'm really not.

Speaker 1 I'm curious about things like

Speaker 1 about childhood obesity compared to other countries and the nutrition and things that are allowed.

Speaker 1 You know, you've seen those things where they compare a product that is the same, but that's sold here or and then sold in the UK and the list of ingredients is like double in in this country

Speaker 1 with with additives and preservers et cetera etc. I mean is that a massive problem or no almost certainly not oh really

Speaker 4 yeah I mean our kids sit in front of the TV more than any other kids so lack of activity alone explains most of this.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 4 And, you know, sadly, when your parents are obese, the likelihood that you'll be obese goes up pretty dramatically. And so the U.S.,

Speaker 4 in many respects, drug addiction,

Speaker 4 obesity, we're, you could say, as the world's richest country, all the problems of being rich are worse in the U.S.

Speaker 4 than they are anywhere else.

Speaker 4 We're also the most innovative, though. And,

Speaker 4 you know, that's why

Speaker 4 I'm not a pessimist at all. I do think.

Speaker 1 Wait, so it's just, it's just apathy?

Speaker 1 Is that what it is?

Speaker 4 No, your TV shows are too entertaining.

Speaker 1 Oh,

Speaker 1 exactly. It's all your fault.
Not mine.

Speaker 1 Not mine. What are you excited for? What are you excited for the next five years? Sorry, Sean.

Speaker 2 No, that's good. I just had one question about another issue.
But yeah, sorry, Will, right before that, but I do want to get to that.

Speaker 2 I'm really passionate about this because of the fires that just happened, because of the constant droughts in California.

Speaker 2 We talked to Kamala Harris about this back three, four years ago when she was the senator in California.

Speaker 1 It's like most of the earth is water.

Speaker 2 And so when there's a shortage of water, I'm like, how can we not figure out how to desalinate water? And people say it's too expensive. Well, it's more expensive to not figure it out.

Speaker 2 And so what are your thoughts about that? And do you have any kind of desire to be in that world?

Speaker 4 Yeah, so I'm very involved in that because

Speaker 4 You know, we have to both do climate mitigation and climate adaptation. And adaptation is a part of that's dealing with water shortages and

Speaker 4 more difficult weather. It takes a certain amount of energy to desalinate water.

Speaker 4 And so only by bringing the cost of energy down with things like solar or perhaps nuclear fission or fusion, then you get more water availability. 80% of water is used for agriculture.

Speaker 4 So you can afford to desalinate water for human consumption. You can't really afford to do it for agriculture, so you have to end up moving your farms to the places where there's enough water.

Speaker 4 You don't want to pay to desalinate just to grow

Speaker 2 unless you do. Unless we figure out a way to do it.

Speaker 1 Unless you do.

Speaker 1 And people like, you know, sadly, Jason Baban, who, you know, obviously with his almond consumption has been destroying the planet.

Speaker 1 It's unbelievable the amount of water that goes to every one of your precious almonds that you just carelessly stuff in your mouth.

Speaker 4 but but uh uh uh bill what do you what is that i was going to ask you about you're excited about the next five years what what are we going to do about uh about energy new uh sources uh going forward what what can we do or is there have we reached peak oil what are we going to do with fossil fuels can we can we keep it going in this direction what do you think about that well i'm very hopeful that between uh expanding wind and solar and getting both types of nuclear, nuclear fission and fusion, to get safer and cheaper, that even with all this demand for energy, like electric cars or electric heat pumps, AI data centers, that we'll be able to get ahead of that and still have cheap electricity, even though we'll get rid of all of the terrible CO2 emissions.

Speaker 4 So we are going to have to transition away from coal and natural gas in the decades ahead.

Speaker 1 I mean, and that's going to be a painful transition, I imagine.

Speaker 4 Not if we innovate the cost of these other other things down.

Speaker 4 You know, electric cars

Speaker 4 are getting cheaper. Eventually, you do get to the point where the substitute is as cheap as the dirty

Speaker 4 thing was. And in the long run, that's what we need to do so that we get global adoption of green approaches.

Speaker 1 Well, but educate me if you would, to the extent that you know.

Speaker 1 You know, if you get an electric car and you get all these people

Speaker 1 who get them and they're great, and then some people like to virtue signal with them and and shame other people

Speaker 1 but but the components there so many of the components that go into the car are you know petroleum based whether it's the actual components themselves or traveling those cars to their destinations or across oceans and stuff right you know about all this so it's all how is there any way that we can mitigate all of those other things as well so that we're not relying on petroleum for everything

Speaker 4 you know absolutely and and we measure that uh

Speaker 4 you know anybody who buys an electric car, as you say, it's not zero emissions, but it is dramatically less than a gasoline car.

Speaker 4 And we're learning to make the batteries using less energy and less environmental things like new ways of finding lithium. And so the accounting on, okay.

Speaker 4 you know how do we have the most environmentally clean car we're doing a very good job tracking that and and consumers who help create demand for electric vehicles,

Speaker 4 they deserve

Speaker 4 a little bit, a sense of virtue because

Speaker 4 the more we buy, the more the price goes down and the more we buy.

Speaker 1 I agree.

Speaker 1 I was playing, obviously, but I do agree. I do agree.

Speaker 3 Bill, what's the rest of your day look like?

Speaker 3 Is your average day?

Speaker 1 Inspiring the person who told him to do this.

Speaker 3 Is your average day split 50-50 between sort of personal pleasure, silly stuff, and also saving the world at the other half? Or I'll bet the ratio is not 50-50.

Speaker 3 But do you get a little time to be stupid doing something? And if so, what is it?

Speaker 4 I do.

Speaker 4 In my 20s, I was monomaniacal in my work. But now, although I work, you know, 50 hours a week and travel a lot, I play a fair bit of tennis.
I play a lot of pickleball.

Speaker 4 I love reading. I love...
you know, TV shows that you guys have made. That's super fun.

Speaker 1 A little bit of golf?

Speaker 4 No, I'm not doing much golf.

Speaker 4 I like tennis and pickleball because slightly better exercise. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Sure, sure.

Speaker 3 Gotcha.

Speaker 3 What is the one thing that you know how to do that everyone would be kind of surprised about? Do you have like a little hobby? Like, are you a great like drawer?

Speaker 1 Do you

Speaker 1 know like what?

Speaker 3 Are you a knitter?

Speaker 1 Like,

Speaker 3 is there anything that's sort of a sneaky little talent that

Speaker 3 people might be surprised about are like are you a great whistler you know

Speaker 1 yeah that's pretty good

Speaker 1 that qualifies on cue on cue not bad i'm i'm good at sleeping on planes oh that's a great talent that is a great talent now are you a are you a savory or sweet person do you have a sweet tooth yeah no i i try and not have too much peanut brittle around because i would eat anything that's around.

Speaker 4 Wow.

Speaker 1 Sugar.

Speaker 3 Sugar is a bad deal for me.

Speaker 1 Very dangerous.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 3 it's good that you're not too distracted with silly things because we need you there on the stick doing whatever you are doing and what you will continue to do, we hope.

Speaker 3 So thank you so much for what you've done, what you're going to do, and thank you for spending an hour with us. Yeah, truly.

Speaker 4 That was fun. Thanks, you guys.
Honor to meet you.

Speaker 1 What an absolute thrill. Thank you so much for your time.

Speaker 1 Thank you, Bill.

Speaker 3 Thank you. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Speaker 1 All right. Thank you, sir.
See you, buddy. Bye.
Super.

Speaker 3 Bye, pal.

Speaker 1 I felt like I was a real blowhard today. I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 You have a lot of opinions, and they're good opinions. This is a talk show.

Speaker 1 I felt very blowhardy. I'm so sorry.

Speaker 3 Well, you know what? You get somebody like that on the show, and

Speaker 3 you want to talk about all the stuff that is complicated.

Speaker 1 Big stuff. I wanted to answer big questions.

Speaker 1 I get that. How can we save it? Is there any way that we can change opinion in the world? Yeah, yeah, right, right, right.

Speaker 2 It's almost like everybody's looking. To your point, Will, it's like everybody's looking for that guy who has all the answers.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 But I mean, i wanted to ask him like people like that do you have perspective about being

Speaker 2 uh one of the people that changed the fucking world no i know like there's like 10 there's like 10 or 20 people like einstein and him and like steve jobs he and i are like on a short list of people

Speaker 1 wait wait wait wait back up back up i agree i know i'm saying what you're saying dude

Speaker 3 nobody smiles at will as created as opposed to computers he and i yeah dude i'm making your point for you that he and i have changed he's got it like talk about like you know, when you get to the end of your life, and like we've talked about it before, you know, did I use my years right?

Speaker 3 Like this guy, I mean, I'm sure some people have issues with him, like, like with everybody, but my goodness, the amount of effect he has set over this world.

Speaker 1 And he's still doing it.

Speaker 3 I know he. The other thing that

Speaker 3 I'm excited about, you know, is his book. He's got this new book coming out that's,

Speaker 3 you know, about like how this all started for him, how his brain started going and how he got a lot of...

Speaker 1 Biography?

Speaker 3 Yes, I believe so. Yeah, it's called Source Code.
It comes out February. But yeah, hopefully there's an audio, audio portion of it that I can listen to.

Speaker 1 Oh, no.

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I still don't get anything. I'm going to get it from left to right, top to bottom, right?

Speaker 1 You don't know what you're missing. I just had such a good read.

Speaker 1 Oh, God, you don't know what you guys. It would give you so many more references.
You'd be so much more interesting. No wonder you're so bland.
You have nothing in there.

Speaker 1 Did we stop recording? Are we still rolling? No,

Speaker 1 it's part of the show.

Speaker 1 Source code is the book. Go out and read it.
Because

Speaker 3 all the profits are going to go to

Speaker 3 not his pocket, something really good. I should know this, but it's all for charity.
That's great.

Speaker 2 As most everything he does.

Speaker 1 Exactly. That's so cool.
Source code.

Speaker 2 I also love the work that I wanted to get more into the.

Speaker 1 Oh, here we go. Jesus Christ.

Speaker 1 You couldn't even fucking get.

Speaker 2 I wanted to get into the biotechnology. The biotechnology.

Speaker 1 What?

Speaker 1 Because the biotechnology

Speaker 3 is exciting.

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