"James McAvoy"

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Features listed are available upgrades. Listener, this is Will.

If you're hearing this,

it means that something has happened

which I feared for a long time.

This might be the last time you ever hear my voice,

and I know some of you are celebrating at that.

But just know,

just know that I loved every single one of you the same. You all mean so much more to me.
And because I'm gone, just know that Sean and Jason don't give a shit about you. They literally said, I said to both of them, I said, do you guys know how much our listener means?

And they said, I don't give two fucks about our listener.

Jason said that as he slammed the door on his European car.

Anyway, I love you.

And welcome to an all new Smart List.

Smart.

Light us.

Smart.

Light us. Smart.
smart bless smart bless we had our family reunion I just got in okay let's move on who's ready with their coffee chat let's hear it how was it I just got back did. I just got back.
Did anybody drink into a fight? No, no, no, no. Nobody fought.
It was great. It was fantastic.
It was lovely. Jay, you didn't call.
I called in. I got to say hi.
I got to meet some of the family. I got to meet his niece and her boyfriend.
What do you mean you called in? I don't understand. FaceTime.
I FaceTime with Sean. We keep in touch and say hello.
This is how normal human beings. We talk about this sometimes.
What is it? Is it like a nightly thing? I've just been sort of teasing but now I'm actually in my fee fees about it you guys talk every night? no you do with Josh Josh Shotland gets you on a FaceTime every god damn day who's Josh? just this guy likes to talk on his FaceTime with Will on his couch without his top on that's true yeah. Yeah, and he frames himself just below the T's.
That's true. Just below the T's.
Yeah, it's weird. Is he still on plastic on his couch? No.
Just when he talks to you. Yeah, he only takes a break when the food delivery comes.
He's always like, one second. Hey, so wait.
So how often are you guys FaceTiming? A couple times a week, maybe. Higher.
Higher while you lie to me. Is it every other night? No.
Another lie. You go super low or super high.
They're lying. No.
But this is fun for you guys. You guys stay in contact because you're best friends and you like to keep up on each other's lives and call into reunions and stuff like that.
You know, I'm fucking sitting here doing nothing but... Okay, now what we're going to do is we're going to take the clip of you for the last 10 seconds complaining about it.
We're going to take your facial expression and your tone, and then we're going to ask you, would you call that guy? Yeah. That's a great point.
Well, maybe just not FaceTime me so you don't have to see the heavy brow. I FaceTime with you last week and you were on, do we want to get into this? You were on a floatie.
Oh, yeah. Let's do some pool time.
Yeah. You know, I remembered I have a pool.
Yeah. You know? Like, oh, I can enjoy.
Sean, he was floating. No, no.
No, no, no. How about this? Two weeks ago, when I went to visit him, he was on a floatie in the pool at his house, ordering sushi from the pool.
Yeah. I like to live the good life every couple of days, you know? Way to go, JB.
We're trying to get people, dissuade people from the opinion that Hollywood types are a bunch of dicks. Total douchebags.
And you just ruined it. Wait, no, this is a public pool.
I'm down at the Y. This is a public pool.
But in Jason's defense, he picked up, he drove to pick up the sushi. No kidding.
Yeah. Look at you, growth.
I wanted to put it in my face quicker than Uber could bring me. Where did you, you didn't go to the place in Beverly Glen, did you? No, no.
This was a sugar fish special. Yummy.
I love that place. They make a nice box down there.
They do. I do.
Is it me or does sushi delivery now, they've kind of upped things. Yeah, it used to be it didn't travel well.
Right, real slapdash thing with a sweaty, you know, plastic see-through box. Now it's a paper thing that's got nice printing and graphics.
Yeah, it's got little sections on it. Yeah.
Yeah. All right, let's get to the guest.
JB, before you get to your, I know you're anxious. Yeah.
Let's remind our listener. Our thing afterwards.
For our thing afterwards to stick around and listen to, right, Sean? Yes it's called Goalless it's a new show from Smartless Media our little podcast company and I'm going to tell you all about it at the end of the episode so please stick around yeah alright tighten up guest here we go guys I don't know if you like acting talent a lot of people do for some reason the three of us seem allergic to it being anywhere near our work, but this guy has got a lot of it, and if we're nice to him, maybe he'll share some. He could also lend us a few of his numerous nominations and wins for his work, which he's been, well, he's been, oh God, still rolling? Which he's received well-deserved recognition for from all over the world.
Sean, you're going to want to discuss with him the whimsy and the wonder of projects such as The Chronicles of Narnia, X-Men, Children of Dune. While, Will, you'll be more interested in the subjects covered in titles such as Shameless, Wanted, Filth, and Ultimately Atonement.
He's a Scottish treasure, a Celtic FC diehard, and a recovering video game addict. Please show some compassion and hospitality to the one and only James McAvoy.
Oh, God. Hey guys, what's going on? How you doing? Look at him.
I'm a massive, massive fan. Yeah.
Pump the brakes. We're going to get to X-Men and things like that.
And Split. Split is one of my favorite movies.
One of the best performances I've ever seen anybody ever. Yeah.
Thank you so much. You played like 75 characters in that.
Let's start with high. Let's start with high, okay? Let's just start with high.
I'm so excited. How are you? Nice to meet you.
I've always wanted to meet you. Don't choke the puppy, Sean.
Yeah. Sorry.
Hey, Will, do you have anything you'd like to say about Celtic FC or do they mess around with your Liverpool fans? No, they don't because they play in a different league, first of all. Don't be shitty.
So if I were a Rangers fan, then we'd have more of an issue. But I will say one of my favorite players plays for Liverpool who happens to be a Scott, Andy Robertson, who I just adore.
Sure. He's amazing.
And also one of the greatest Liverpool players of all time, Kenny Dalgleish, not to to mention Graham Souness, but Kenny Dalglish was also a massive, massive, like, icon for Celtic as well. So Kenny Dalglish, I had the pleasure last year, I bored these guys when I went on my various trips over to Liverpool and I got to sit with Kenny Dalglish.
I got to sit with him. First of all, the last game I went to, when I went to Jürgen's second last game, he was behind me with his wife.
JB, you watch your manners. You're talking about Sir Kenny Doglish.
I'm just working on fake snoring. That sounds so real.
Honestly, you're about to make millions of enemies right now. No, listen, I love this guy.
And show some fucking respect to Sir Kenny Doglish. The stand opposite opposite says the Sir Kenny Douglas stand at Liverpool, and he's sitting there looking at his own stand.
He's a fucking icon, dude. Yeah, I know.
He's brilliant. He's really, really amazing.
He, um... Yeah.
He's famously dour, but I was lucky enough to be managed by him at a charity football event once. I spent like three or four days with him during this time.
Sean was managed by a dog leash at one point in your career right Sean? Yeah just a couple just a couple tugs and I'm yours I love an easy leg. Oh, God.
James, I'm so sorry. James, thanks for joining us.
I'm going to leave on the win. It's been great, guys.
Thanks very much. This has been like the real middle point of my career.
Thank you. Fucking fuck.
Does anybody call you Jim or Jimmy? Yeah, yeah. I don't get Jim too much.

There's one guy who brilliantly is also,

not brilliantly, he is Scottish,

but he rather brilliantly calls me,

he's called Jockey and he calls me Jockey.

And a couple of mates call me Jimmy Floyd.

Wait, Jockey?

Wait, where does Jockey come from?

I don't know where Jockey comes from.

Jock is also rhyming slang for Scottish person because it's sweaty sock, jock. Oh, really? Go back to sweaty sock.
If you're a sweaty sock in England, if you're like a Cockney and you're referring to Scottish, people would say sweaty sock because it rhymes with jock. But he was called jockey and for some reason he would call me jockey.
But then most of my mates would call me Jimmy Floyd. How about that? And where does that come from? Wait, where does Floyd come from? Two of my favorite football players.
One of them was Henrik Larsson. His name didn't become anything to do with mine.
The other one was Jimmy Floyd Hasselbank. And so they used to call me Jimmy.
And then they started calling me Jimmy Floyd. And then they just dropped the Jimmy, and most of them just called me Floyd.
And then I've got one mate who's from Newcastle who calls me Jimmy Flow. Jimmy Flow.
Jimmy Flow. Nobody calls me shit.
I don't have a nickname, do I, you guys? Well, listen, by the end of this podcast, we're going to have a nickname for you. Frank Uncle Grumps.
Uncle Hansy? Yeah. Uncle Hansy.
Bitch slap. Wait, James, James, I have a feeling by the end of this interview, we're going to have nicknames for each other.
I feel like we've got a real quick connection right here. Not with the other guys.
No. James McAvoy, what beverage are you enjoying right now? Because it's got a lot of ice in it, which I enjoy.
It's soda water and lime right now. I did have a Cosmo right before we started this.
No, you did not. Did you? Yeah, I did.
I had a Cosmo. I love that.
Where are you right now? I'm in my basement. But where? I ran back here.
In North London. In North London.
Fantastic. Wow.
It looks fancy. I want to live in North London.
I know, look at it. He's just having a little Cosmo in his basement.
He's got a nice painted wall behind him with a good iron window. Like a Hawaiian shirt on or something.
This is my basement. This is my little man cave.
I don't like that term, but it is my little place that I get to come and be. And I've got a little sort of wanker gem over there.
And I've got a TV in front of me. We're going to let you rephrase that.
It's where I get stronger as a wanker. I really work on my technique.
I try and make it harder for myself sometimes. I put weights on my hand.
Sure. But yeah.
You know, I would say that you operate this very unique space where you are such a great actor

and you've managed to kind of create,

you kind of stay out of any category.

You're very unique.

You've just, I don't know,

you've got this kind of patina about you

that's very fucking,

I remember the first time I was like,

wow, this guy is amazing.

I was watching, it was Last King of Scotland,

which was years ago, I know.

Fantastic.

That fucking phenomenal film, dude. And I was was like who the fuck is this guy yeah this guy's a fuck it right and then you've just every time I see you you kind of carve out these different little niches for yourself and you stay at I don't know you've got your own lane that you've created which is really admirable because a lot of people kind of go into a kind of a cookie cutter thing is that something you you're conscious of? You're constantly going, fuck, I want to do something a little bit different.
I want to be over here. I want to go over here.
Yeah, no, definitely. Look, 100%, I've been really lucky not to just have to play the same kind of thing again and again and again.
Although, latterly, I have been looking at my fucking career. Latterly, I've been...
I'm going to want you to lay down right through this part and just elevate your head. And just tell us what you're feeling.
Well, you know, I am in my wanker gym, which is where I think about myself. Generally, whilst looking at myself in that mirror over there.
Wait, no, keep going. You were thinking about your career in what? No, I think about my my career and I'm thinking and talking about actors that I love and respect whilst doing press junkets for this movie that I've got coming out.
Speak No Evil. Sure.
It looks so good. I think it's out now.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, hey, huh? It's out now.
And so many of the actors that I respect and admire, and I wouldn't say emulate because I don't try to emulate anyone. I, or actors who have repeatedly kind of done the same thing.
And even if they're playing a character who's, or a person who's in a different situation or a different scenario, which means the same thing, it's, it's, it's kind of the same guy and everything. And yet I don't disrespect them for that for that and yet I've spent my whole career trying to go like I'm going to be this guy no I'm going to be this guy and then luckily in Split and in Glass I got to do many guys all in one some women as well so it kind of makes me call into question the fucking point of playing all these different characters when all the actors I really love are like a type.
Yeah, it's a really, really good point because I'm also a big fan of actors that, I mean, I really respect character actors that like yourself or like a Daniel Day-Lewis or somebody that can really morph into somebody completely different with the limp and the thing in the hall. But I really respect an actor that can

be

comfortable. with the limp and the thing in the hall.
It's all about the limp. But I really respect an actor that can be comfortable

with just disappearing and not doing anything

except just, excuse the term, story,

servicing the story and just not doing any sort of performance.

Do you know what I mean?

Like that takes a lot of talent too.

And I love those actors. Do you know what it is? Listen, I can put it down to a turning point in my career.
Let's go, guys. The interview starts now.
Guys, it's about to get fucking profound. Let's go.
I've definitely got an erection. We're not really talking until you say the words my and career next to each other.
You know what I mean? Yeah. I did a film when I was in my mid to late 20s that was, I can't really say what film it is because I'll end up slagging off the person that I'm talking about.
But slagging off means bad-mouthing. Yeah.
Translated for you colonials. And so it was a great success and everything went great.
And we got award nominated and we were like, we made loads of money and all that. Like a year and a half, two years later, he comes back to me and he's like, dude, I want you to do this film with me.
It's based on a book. And I read the book and I'm like, I love this character.
It's amazing. I get the script.
I read the script. And they've chopped the balls off the character completely.
And this incredibly dynamic, fucking diverse, like, acting character that is in the book is just this guy who's like... Hello, how are you? ...dough-eyed and cries a lot and does a lot of silent acting.
Does a lot of movie acting, do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Which I'd done previously with this director to great, again, to great acclaim and all that kind of stuff.
It was good for me. And we had a chat about it and I said, well, look, I don't think we've really captured who he is in the book and stuff.
And we had, we kind of fell out. We kind of had a bit of a tit at it, right? And he goes, he goes, oh no, I get it.
You want to do acting. Oh, boy.
Oh. And I was like, that was that kind of made my decision for me.
Because I didn't say this to him, but inside I was like, do you know what, mate? Yes, I fucking do. Right.
It's what I do. But then I have this moment at 45 going like, why are all the actors I really admire not doing any acting? And I'm out here going like, look at my lip, look at my lip, look at my accent.
But I like telling the story on purpose. I get pissed off doing movie acting.
I don't enjoy it. And yet I do get to watch other actors do movie acting and I go, fuck, that's brilliant.
It's like magic. Yeah, but I mean, as long as it's, not to oversimplify it, but as long as it's real and it comes from a real place, who cares about any of it? It's like, you know.
Yeah, and James, when you say movie acting, you're talking about smaller sort of leading man stuff, right? Where you're just sort of like. I'm talking about like.
Right. Holy shit.
Facting, face acting. Yeah.
Sometimes it's great. Like sometimes I can watch something and go, that's full.
That is real. And I'm like, I'm there for it.
But nothing acting, sometimes it winds me up so much. I'm with you on that.
And I want to watch somebody give something. Like, I personally believe that the origins of performance and the origins of performance art, the orange, the orange of performance art is in an orchard in Sicily.
and I think the origin of performance art the orange the orange of performance art is is in an orchard in Sicily I think the origin of performance art comes from fucking human sacrifice it comes from sacrificing a goat or sacrificing a baby or sacrificing a person and a bunch of people watching it going please let it rain this year and that's the origin of theatre that's the origin of and the person that's up there getting sacrificed, turned into performers, sweating blood, sacrificing something of themselves, whether that's literally their health, their blood, their dignity, their sexuality, their fucking humanity, whatever it is that you're sacrificing when you're on stage or on screen, you've got to leave something up there. You've got to work.
I want to see somebody sweat blood. And that's not for everybody.
Some people want to watch an actor just go like that. Right.
Yeah, yeah. James, what kind of mushrooms are you on? Because I...
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Our show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Hey guys, everybody should have a support system, right? Who's your support system? My support system, as you well know, talk about all the time, is Scotty.
And of course, my two besties, Will and Jason. Whenever I have a problem, an issue, I talk to them about it.
And if they're not available, I will talk to a therapist. And I've been going to therapy for a long time.
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No, no, no. I think there's a lot of truth to what you said.
And you know, it's funny when you were describing that experience working on that film and you said, yeah, it did well. We got all the awards and then we made lots money.
And I was thinking about it, and I don't mean to get too heady about this, but as you said, it struck me as like, isn't it funny doing this thing that you do that one of the marks of success is, to go and do it to create art, if you will, is how much fucking money it made. And maybe I'm getting old right in this moment.
It just occurred to me for some reason, it really hit me like, imagine that that's a fucking measure of how good something is, is how much fucking money it made. And that all these people and all of us, me included, consider what we do to be successful depending upon whether or not it made any fucking money.
Yeah. I'm not even railing against the system.
I'm just saying that isn't it funny? Sometimes it hits you in different times. You think like, wow, isn't that fucking...
Here's my spin on it. Because, which is maybe it sounds like I'm trying to backtrack and justify and reverse engineer something that makes me sound like I've got more integrity.
But I think that I do what I do and I put myself out there for criticism and even if it's a successful piece, not everybody likes it and you take fucking crazy criticism, even in the stuff that people said was good. And what it means when you make some money is that fuck people actually went to see it and we found an audience and we communicated and we managed to communicate with people because that's all it is isn't it art is just about communication sometimes when we say when we're making art people go like oh there they go they're talking about art what it means is we're trying to communicate.
Art is an attempt to communicate. And if you've made some money, what it really means is you managed to communicate.
You managed to find, instead of this nebulous thing where it's like, yeah, I've got this movie on a website at the moment, it's doing great. 4.5 people have seen it worldwide, and it's fucking, it's out there.
And you're like, you can make a great piece of art, but nobody saw it. So you didn't get to communicate.
And that is something that's becoming harder and harder to do in the cinemas. Maybe it's easier to do it in the streamers, but it's also like the streamers are like this, this like kaleidoscope of whirlpools that you're getting pulled into.
And each whirlpool has a thousand things in it that the algorithm helps you watch i don't know but i think i think i think that's fair i think that's fair i think that's really fair it's it's it's a marker of how much you were able to how many people you were able to connect with i suppose and that that makes sense how did you how did you get into this game what was the thing did you come by it honestly did you have parents parents in the arts or was it just on your own? I grew up in a council estate in Glasgow called Drum Chapel. Council estate is something you guys call not schemes projects.
So I was in high school it was about 15, 16 we were doing Macbeth in English. My English teacher knew a director and an actor who'd done macbeth in the 70s and he came in and talked to us i recognized him immediately because he was a he was like a movie actor he'd done like movies with chris o'donnell and um and i was like i've seen you in vertical limit you're like the bad guy in vertical limit with fucking chris o'.
And I was like, wow. And then I was like, I've also seen you in a film with fucking Arnold Schwarzenegger.
And he was pretty cool. He took a lot of shit from some of the guys in the class.
And at the end of it, I just went up and I said, listen, I'm sorry about that. Thank you very much for coming.
If you're making a movie again movie again because he was a film director would you please consider letting me come and making tea or coffee for you and um for a week or something like that and he called back months later and he was like is that kid still there send him to the production office he was making this movie about child prostitution and pornography in Glasgow and uh he he was like here's the script read it and I read it and it and I went, come in here. Can you try and play Kevin? This young guy called Kevin Savage.
And he was like, can you make yourself cry? I'd never done any acting at this point. And I got the part and we left the room and he was like, we found the guy, this is him.
And do you know what's really weird, right? There was a TV show called Streetwise. Streetwise! It was a kid's show, and it was about mountain bike couriers in London that were led by a saxophone playing Andy Serkis, right? No way.
Yeah, man. That's crazy.
It was a kid's show. And I loved it.
They were like crime-fighting mountain bike couriers. And Andy Serkis.
It was brilliant. And he played the saxophone.
And I was like, that's Andy Serkis. He was walking into the production office.
And Andy was playing a Glaswegian pimp with dreadlocks. And my first bit of being a professional actor was literally being told you're going to play the part.
And then I walked out and Andy Serkis went, are you actually from Glasgow? Are you like the real deal

like from a council estate or whatever?

And I was like, yeah, man.

He was like, great, come sit with me.

And he was like recording me

and recording my voice.

And I was teaching Andy fucking Serkis

from Streetwise.

For my sister, Tracy in Wisconsin,

Andy Serkis is Gollum in Lord of the Rings.

He was Planet of the Apes.

He's a great character actor,

also great director, incredible guy. Just a good guy as well.
Who was the director of this film, the child prostitution, that discovered you? It was a movie called The Near Room. It was a reference to a Muhammad Ali quote, talking about the space that he would go, I think, before a fight, with the alligators, play trombones.
And it was a guy called David Heyman, not to be confused with the producer who does Harry Potter, and since then, many, many things. But Scottish actor, director, philanthropist, and really good actor.
But I'd said to him, and I was not that good in the film, and I've said publicly quite a few times, I'd love to pay him back. I'd love to be in something for him.
And he sent me something one day, and I was like, I don't think it's quite right for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right.
There's not enough acting in it. Yeah.
So from that point on, and then as you kind of built this career for yourself over many, many years, and you just kind of kept going up and up and up and up and up and more, and bigger projects, projects that have more recognition and audiences that grew and everything, is there something that you learned that was so valuable that you can share? Because I think, you know, I look back when I was a young actor, and I'm like, I wish somebody would have fucking told me blank, A, B, and C. And then you get older and you look back and you wish, there's no, nobody pulls you aside and said, this is how the business works.

This is how, this is what you should be looking for. Like, I wish somebody would have told

me, you know, blank.

Camera hat's 10 pounds?

Or something like that. Or just the business side of it too.

Must have been driving over a canyon when you got that note. Sean must be using two cameras right now, then.
Oh, my fuck. You guys are harsh.
You guys are friends, right? You guys like each other and shit, right? We're very old friends.

Well, but James, so you didn't really kind of start this super passionate about it.

Like this wasn't your plan really to be an actor out of the gate, right?

No.

Weren't you going to maybe be a priest at one point or is that just a Wikipedia lie?

No way, really. You do deep research here.
It's a lie that I've told in many interviews. Really? Yeah, just to try and make myself sound like I'm the kind of guy you want to corrupt and attract people to me.
No, I consider being a very specific kind of priest. Not a handsy one for a start.
Then I'm out. We just lost Sean.

I thought being a missionary sounded kind of cool

because you get to go to far-flung places

and do far-flung things and have a great time.

I then started to finally find a little bit of luck

with the opposite sex,

around about 15 and 16.

I went, I am not selling my sexuality to God for the rest of my life. So it was Catholicism, wasn't it? So that took me out of that.
I was going to join the Navy at one point, and then I was going to go to university. And then I thought, listen, I did this acting thing when I was 16.
I'll try it for acting school, the one acting school in my town, in my city. And I luckily got in.
And this is the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama?

Formerly known as, now known as the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland.

And this is, you don't just pay 10 bucks and get in to that place.

This is a very, very prestigious place.

I come from a country with a proud history of socialist democracy,

so luckily I was the last, luckily, I was the last,

I think I was the last year to have their tuition completely paid for them.

But still, it ain't some swinging door there.

No, no.

This is a high-end institution.

Yeah, yeah.

It was kind of, I guess it was tough to get in.

I was really, I was lucky I got in on my first try.

If I hadn't got in on my first try,

I might have gone off and done one of those other things, know but listen to answer your question Sean I would say there's a couple of things I would pass on one is try and be more American in terms of what you do as an actor try and create your own work because you guys I don't we I think it's changing now but me coming up it felt like us as young actors it was like you're a hired gun you're like a carpenter that's hired in and you guys when I met you guys you guys back in 2003 when I first started coming to America I was like whoa you've got two editions a month and you've got a production company

and you've written four scripts

and you're like, how do you do this?

Like, what do you mean?

You got a development deal with who?

I was like, what?

I could not believe.

But it's also grown up within an industry

that is actually an industry,

whereas in Britain, it's a little bit,

we feel lucky to be here

and we feel lucky to get to do this secret thing

that like fairies and elves get to do.

And it feels a bit more like a cottage industry.

Yeah, I guess that's kind of what I meant a little bit was like, being an actor is plenty. There's a lot of work that goes with that.
But as to your point, a lot of people are realizing the industry is changing. You kind of have to be all things in order to, you have to kind of cultivate your own work for yourself.
And so I just didn't know if that was something that you're doing now. Like, are you delving into other aspects, directing, producing, writing, anything like that? I'm directing at the moment.
I'm about to go into prep for my first film in the 20th of August. It's really exciting.
Which is really exciting. But I don't want to produce.
I don't want to write, I don't want to do those things. I've done those things in the past and I did not find it to be my wheelhouse.
What's drawing you to the directing? Control, power, abuse of it. Not the paycheck.
Not the paycheck. Do you know what? I've been looking to tell stories about my own country for a long, long time.
And every single story I got sent was like gritty Scottish drama. Yeah, yeah.
About drugs and the kind of neighborhoods I grew up in. Transpotting, yeah.
Yeah, but actually, transport would be okay because that was an incredibly beautiful artistic way to tell stories

about people

who have no opportunities.

But likewise,

this is a true story

about,

I just burped on camera

really loud.

Do not cut that.

I can smell it.

It's only audio.

It's only audio.

Thank you.

Audio smells.

Do you want me

to tell you what it's about?

Yeah, please.

Yeah, of course we do.

It's not going to be out

for like 14 years.

Don't worry. Are you in it or are you just going to direct it? I need to be in it.
I need to be in it to get it bonded. It's a true story about two rappers from Dundee who rapped about Scottish things in their Scottish accent.
They came down to London in the early 2000s and they did an audition for Sony. They literally got laughed out of the room, even though they were awesome.
And they came back like a year later. They'd re-recorded all their demos and all their backing tracks with American accents and they pretended to be these two skater dudes from Hemet in California.
Yeah. And they got a record deal from the same label that day.
Oh my God. For 35 grand.
And they got housed and they got given a studio and they got an A&R rep. And for two and a half years, they pretended to be 24-7.
Like even when they were alone together, they pretended to be these two dudes called Cellular Brains. Wow.
And they nearly made it. They nearly made it.
It's an incredible story. But yeah, so that's the film we're making.
That's pretty great. It's called California Scheming.
Oh, that's so good. Wait, who's doing it with you? It's just me on my own with my camcorder.
And a mirror. I'm going to shoot it on my iPhone in my basement.
I'm really excited. We're independent at the moment.

Studio Canal are involved.

Screen Scotland are involved.

No, but I mean,

it's two guys.

It's you're one of the guys

and who's your partner?

I ain't one of the guys.

I'm too old.

These guys were like 1920.

Well, Will,

you can hang on.

I don't know where

Will's going with this.

Will, you got a pretty high,

you know, low range there.

You can play 1920.

I'm just saying.

Can you give us some,

give us just a little bit

of rapping, Will?

Yeah, and Scotland and Scottish. No, no, no.
They're American rappers. Yeah, they're American, so you're perfect.
Oh, Sean, listen to James' story much? Fucking Jesus. All right, so go ahead.
I was throwing a twist in there for you. Take this as an opportunity to audition just a little bit, Will.
No, no, no. I'm the beatbox guy.
I'm doing the beatbox. No, I'm the beatbox.
You do the rapping. No, you're rapping.
You're auditioning for this. Okay.
All right, never mind. Now, James, what about...
Now, this film that you're going to be... I was rapping.
Go ahead. This film that you're going to be directing, the role that you're going to be playing in it, is it a role that is appropriate for you to do sort of character-type acting, or is it a role that would be more appropriate if you were to do that level of acting? Would you be overplaying the part? Or do you just need to just be a guy? Or can we see some good hard looks? Will you just throw a bunch of hard looks? I think there's going to be some hard looks.
There's going to be some... Yeah, smoking.
Hard looks. I think it just requires me

to be kind of me,

but

I might get nervous

at the last minute

throwing a limp.

Or just have the guy

have a cold

the whole movie.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good idea.

He's got to be Scottish.

Can I make a...

First of all,

the hard looks are good,

so I don't want to eat into them because you do them really, really well. Have you thought about an eye patch? Hey, that's the thing.
If I internalize the eye patch, you will see the eye patch. Wow.
That's right. I want to talk about, wait, first of all, I know probably everybody comes up to you and says how brilliant you were in Split, but I just thought it was, I thought it was like you should have won an Academy Award.
Like it was incredible performance. And tell me, you played all these different characters because the guy was a fucking serial killer.
Yeah. But also these different accents, these different characters, and you buy each and every one of them.
Like to your point, they were all real. They were all very real.
So tell me about the process and were you scared to do that many different kind of people? I was not scared. I got that job pretty last minute because it was meant to be Joaquin Phoenix.
Oh, really? Excuse me, I just burped again. I'm drinking fizzy water, guys.
It's all I drink. It's's all I drink Joaquin Phoenix was supposed to do it because he had a relationship with M.
Night Shyamalan from like Signs was he in the village as well? I think he's in the village isn't he? yeah and then I don't know what happened but like two weeks before they started shooting he read the script or something and went I don't want to do this and for two weeks before they started shooting, he read the script or something and went, I don't want to do this. And for whatever reason, he fell out.
And so I get the call saying, hey, do you want to read this? It's super secret. You've got to read it and then like give it back.
And I was like, cool. And they were saying it's M.
Night Shyamalan. I've been a fan of loads of his films.
And I was like, definitely. It came to me and I thought, this has got the potential to be really good.

It could also go off a cliff

and be really bad but I think that's

the case with most really interesting

or fun things. They could go either

way. That's not a criticism of his

material there by the way.

But yeah, it was a lot of characters,

it was a lot of work but it was well

written and I thought it's good hard

work and as long as I've got enough time

to come up with this we can figure it out.

It was down to the wire, trying to

Thank you. it was a lot of work but it was well written and I thought it's good hard work and as long as I've got enough time to come up with this we can figure it out but it was down to the wire trying to find all the characterizations the last one we found was at the table read Jason Blum had flown in and people for Universal had flown into Philly where we made the film and I'm doing this table read going like we haven't really found the character Hedwig.
And at the last minute... Who modeled it after Blum? Yeah, I just drove around LA in a van all the time.
I just want to say to Blum, you finally made it onto the podcast. You know what I mean? He's listening, he's listening.
He's in the queue, he's coming in. We love him.
We love him. We're going to bring him on.
We hope he's good, man. He's cool.
I think their company do good things. For Tracy, Jason Blum is Blumhouse.
The Blumhouse pictures. And he does also, he also does drive around LA in a van.
So, Jason's right about that. He does.
Yeah, a plumbing van. But this new film is a Blumhouse as well, right? Speak No Evil.
This new film is a Blumhouse as well. And it does, the Blumhouse does so well.
The trailer looks great. I think so too.
We love him. We are going to have him on.
But wait, I want to hear. So you're there.
You haven't found the last thing. You're at the table reading.
It's like fucking down to the wire. It's down to the wire.
And the director, Knight, goes, listen, I think for the character of Hedwig, the kid in the movie, he's like, I think you should do it with like a sibilant S. And I'm like, like a lisp? He's like, we say sibilant S.
And I was like, all right, cool. I'll do it with a sibilant lisp.
And I'm like, what? I'm just going to throw this in to the table reader. I was like, are you kidding? Oh, fuck, okay.
And then within seconds of doing it, I was like, this was a good call. Yeah, yeah.
And suddenly the whole character came together. But no, look, it was a lot of heavy lifting in that job, but if you can lift it, then it's a good lift.
Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I'm speaking like I'm a total bro.
Yeah, but again, you know, when you shoot a movie, it's all out of order.

You're not like taking care of it. You do one character, and then you're done.

And then in James' case, you do another character, and then you're done.

So you're probably playing, what, sometimes three or four different characters on the same day, right?

Yeah, that's crazy.

And would you agree that, you know, you seem to be the kind of real actor that will find the version of each character inside you?

And if that is true, then when you're playing in a movie where you're playing multiple characters and basically, you know, going through schizophrenia, does it ever become super taxing on yourself to explore all those different parts of yourselves

and try to be as authentic and as believable as possible? And it sort of like triggers and brings these characters up in you and you don't know who the hell you are then when you go home? Or are you just doing a lisp? You see me, man. You see me.

I think there's only really been one time in my career where I brought it home.

Actually, there's maybe three times in my career

where I brought it home.

But I do like what you just said.

It is always me.

It doesn't matter how weird it is or how wacky it looks

or how different it seems from my personality.

It's always me.

There's no becoming the character. It's always me.
There's no becoming the character.

It's always me. There's always

some version of yourself.

That's all you have to give.

And if some other actor says,

no, I actually do transform into someone else,

I'm cool with that. I'll believe them too.

But for me, it's just

all you have is your own tool, your own body.

But the only jobs that I brought

at home were Macbeth

because it was all about losing children for me

and that

That's it. all you have is your own tool, your own body.
But the only jobs that I brought at home were Macbeth because it was all about losing children for me and that just the whole of Macbeth I was apparently not an easy person to live with when I did Macbeth and then and then whenever I've played a victim, I've played a victim kind of twice now maybe in a Danny Boylele movie called Trance, and then a movie that I just made in Germany. And I just felt awful about myself because I was such a victim of circumstance and other people's control.
I did not enjoy that experience. And that's the only times that I've ever brought it home with me, those three.
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All right, back to the show.

Now, in this trailer for

Speak No Evil,

by the way, you look huge. Did you go to the gym just for this part? Cool it, Sean.
I'm just asking. I'm like 6'4", so my IMDB page, I'm like bigger than Hugh Jackman.
Are you really 6'4"? No, I'm 5'7". Oh, are you? By the way, Sean, you said it.
I just want to say it should be noted, because to be fair, you said that you often bring it home from a movie. Sure.
Sorry, by it, I mean craft service. You usually bring a lot of it home with you, don't you? Just bags, yeah.
I just came home back from a family reunion. There was all this extra food there.
And it's just like, there was like a bag of donuts. I grabbed those.

I grabbed a couple other things.

Did you really?

Yeah.

But there's all this extra food and I felt so bad throwing it out.

Anyway.

What's that image of you,

Sean Hayes,

bringing a bag of donuts

onto a plane?

Hugging everybody goodbye

with you slinging the bag

over their back

while you hug them all.

Hollywood bad boy

steals donuts

from family reunion.

Yeah,

powdered sugar

just on people's. Hollywood bad boy.
Sean Hayes. No, wait.
You do look so buff in that trailer. It's like crazy.
You look like you worked out crazy. Do you know what? I didn't do it for the movie.
I just did it for the fun. I did it because we were in the lockdown.
We were in pandemic land. Yeah, yeah.
I just had my second child. And I was like, do you know what? know what i can't let having a child again stop me from exercising for three years so i was like i'm going to double down and i started eating crazy amounts of food and lifting crazy heavy weight yeah um and two years later this script came along and it was like oh perfect this works yeah yeah let's talk about when you decide to toggle between mediums, when you go between theater and film.
Yeah. Because you've done an incredible amount of very prestigious theater work and I would imagine that's very, very rewarding to you.
Yeah. But you also have to pay the bills and you're a big movie star and you probably enjoy doing that stuff too.
So how do you decide between, is there a rhythm you like to maintain or is it just kind of job to job kind of thing? Rhythm is a dancer. Speaking my language.
Honestly, wonderful. Wait, wait, let's try to get some music in right here.
Wonderful. That was wonderful.
Rhythm, I don't know if there's rhythm. My agent, Ruth Young, who I've been with since I was 20, always says, do one for them, do one for yourself.
And it ends up being more a little bit like, do like four for them and do one for yourself. If I come back and I manage to get to do theatre, it generally over the last 15 years been with jamie lloyd uh the same director again and again and again and the biggest thing with theater for me is it's a risk because it's the most exposing thing you can do as an actor um and you have to go up and sacrifice something every single night and if it's shit, you're sacrificing and it's like going

down like a cup of cold sick

and the audience are sitting there literally

going like

or they're asleep, right? And you can

fucking see it. And that kills, man.

That hurts. So it's, whereas you make

a movie, like the audience experience

of that is like time traveling a year and a half

in the future and you're not even there.

You can get back and you get paid like way better and it's a different thing but it's not it doesn't have the creative fulfillment for you does it it does they both have the creative fulfillment but if i was going to be in a bad play or a bad movie i'd rather be in a bad play if i was going to be in a good play or a good movie i'd rather be in a good what about about the time that it takes the commitment you have to make ahead of time

to commit to that play, rehearse, put it up

and you can't leave until it's done

how many

really killer jobs

have you missed because you've committed

to a play and you're like oh

fuck, had no way of knowing

that script is coming

not many actually

I've missed some killer jobs

because I didn't get them

and I've missed some killer jobs

because I didn't get them.

And I've missed...

But then your career pans out differently

and you're glad you didn't get it.

Yeah, yeah.

Everything has fucked in.

Is there one job

that you're comfortable telling us

that you wish you would have gotten?

Yeah, totally.

Which one?

Deep stroke.

No, I...

I... Good night, totally.
Which one? Deep stroke. No, I...
Good night, Oscar. Yeah.
The Broadway show with Sean Hayes. Yeah, yeah.
So I went up for Pilots of the Caribbean when I was Nezobody. Yeah.
This is Orlando Bloom's part?

Orlando ended up getting it.

It was me.

I think I remember it was a guy called Paul Nichols and Orlando and someone else.

And I don't even think Orlando was auditioning, actually.

I think he was off in Middle Earth doing those movies

with Peter Jackson.

And it was me and these two other guys who were, I think. Yeah, yeah.
No, that's where it Peter Jackson. And it was me

and these two other guys

who were,

I think,

I believe it was

the second film.

Well,

at that point,

they were in Middle Earth,

of course,

but,

you know,

the precious.

I believe they were in

the land of Mordor

where the shadows lie.

Mordor.

Mordor.

And I went

and screened camera tests.

I felt like,

I think I got really close to it. I ended up having to do this camera test with Keira Knightley who I later ended up doing a tournament with anyway got real close to it and then it never happened but that was one that I was like I would get to go to like sunny places right and be on ships and dress dress like with a wig on and like shoot like guns that have powder that come out of them because they're muskets, man.
And like, Johnny Depp ended up being in it and Kira was amazing. It was, it was...
And there were like five of them, right? Six of them. There were like 15 of them and I was, I was kind of gutted about that one that I never got out of.
I understand. But then my career went a different way and I was so happy with how my career went that I was very philosophical about it and like totally fine with it but at the time for about a year I was like man the one that got away you know there is one more I could tell you about yes please but I don't want to tell you about it no let's just have one more sip one more sip there was a big one there was a big one and the director who cast me in it he No, let's just have one more sip.
One more sip. It was a big one.
There was a big one. And the director who cast me in it, I'd seen him really early in my career for a small part in a movie, playing like the younger version of one of the main bad guys at the beginning of the movie.
So I'd only be in it for like five, 10 minutes, but it was like an awesome part. And I came in for this audition.
And by the end of the like we'd shared so much life shit he was crying i was crying like the the audition went amazing like the acting was like it went great and as i'm walking out the room he's like he's like oh my god well we found the guy it's him we found the guy they never even called my agent christ wow and then when you saw who they cast did, were you like, oh, that's why I didn't get it? No. No? You still didn't understand.
I did not think great of their casting. However, that was like the snidiness of youth movie.
But years later, there's this big, huge, gazillion dollar movie getting made and they come to me and they go, listen, we would love you to meet so-and-so with this director. So I go and sit down with this director, and I'm like, you remember me, right? And he's like, no, have we met? I'm like, I love your work.
And I'm like, no, no, no, we met, and I relay the whole story to him. And he's like, nah, don't have a single memory of that, dude.
I'm like, what? We were in tears together. You said we found the guy and looked at me as i left the room and so did you do this big film for him or did you tell him to go fuck i actually did sign on to the film it took three years and yeah i was like i wasn't trying to like take him to task i was just like dude this is funny we need to talk about this right but um it took like three years to actually get it going and by the time time those three years had passed, I had a kid and this movie was being filmed on the other side of the world.
And I was like, I am not going out there for a year and a half of my life to go and do whatever. What does Jimmy Flough do on the side? Like when he's not acting? On the side? We can talk about that, bro.
Drive a cab. What do you mean? For free? Just get my shits um what do i do on the side yeah do you know what it's like being a dad and being a guy at home and uh i'm like working out no not anymore i haven't worked out in about six months but yeah i was doing a lot of that before yeah yeah um yeah.
Play video games with my kids. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
What about, didn't you burn one of your video games because you were too addicted to it? Wait, what? Yeah, so it's aptly, James had a problem. I had a real problem.
I don't like to talk about it, but I feel like the more I can make people aware, maybe I can help someone else. Yeah, why don't you help somebody? Exactly.
If one person, if you can save one person. Save a life right now.
You have a little gaming issue? Because I do too. I play a lot of games on my phone.
What do you play? What do you play? Oh, just the dumbest shit. No, he plays fucking Candy Crush.
It's not gaming. You don't talk to him, James.
He's playing Candy Crush. I played a lot of, I played Call of Duty.
I played Call of Duty with the same dudes for like 10 years straight, like fucking five nights a week, man. I know.
I feel your pain. During the pandemic, my eldest son was 11 or 12.
How long ago was that? He was like 11 or 12. I started letting him stay up to like 2 in the morning to play Call of Duty with my friends and me.
And his mom calls me. She's like, you cannot let him stay let him stay up to play with you and your moronic friends.

Right.

They're not my friends.

They're like laser dude six, and he's also called it.

These are my comrades.

These are my brothers.

We're in war together.

These aren't my friends.

This is fun.

So you're in remission now, or are you still dabbling?

I'm in remission.

He started.

Listen, I've lapsed a couple of times. The first time I realized I had a problem, I was making a movie in Ireland with Anne Hathaway, and it was called Becoming Jane.
It was about Jane Austen. And I'm getting home every night, and my wife at the time had bought me an Xbox and this fantasy role-playing game called Oblivion the elder scrolls aptly fucking entitled oblivion because that's what it was taking my life and then i remember getting home from work at like seven or eight or like nine one of those crazy hours that you get home out in the movie business and i order a pizza and like a two liter bottle of coke or as we call it in scotland a two liter bottle of ginger any any soft drink fizzy soft drink can be called ginger ginger two litre bottle of Coke, or as we call it in Scotland, a two-liter bottle of ginger.
Any soft drink, fizzy soft drink can be called ginger. Two-liter bottle of ginger and a pizza hut.
And I stick in Oblivion and I go to Oblivion. And then I just remember going, I'll just play for five minutes more, I'll play for five minutes more.
And then my driver is waiting to take me to work at 6.30 in the morning. And this is like not the first time time it happened on that job either and i was like something has changed and i press the eject button and the cd comes out the disc drive and i go over to the gas stove and i turn on the gas stove and i'm standing there like that's going like how am i gonna how am i gonna like fall in love with jane austen today and i'm like because you know and and then I just drop it on the gas stove and I just watch it melt.
And then I, and I, I walked away. That's a bottom.
Yeah. I mean, it's a real thing.
Like people, it's, it's a real thing. Your bottom is only when you decide to stop digging.
You know what I mean? Yeah. But the pandemic, I had the same thing as you, man.
I had like three buddies. We all went, hey guys, should we just get get like a should we all get like a like a PS4 or something like that and we're like we'll all play some shooting game come to like two years later and we're like John John I'm going in I'm going in man buy me up buy me up push push push push I know it got so fucking crazy and then I recently had one of my friends say hey we're still playing I'm like no I'm never going I can't do it man not right now I think I'm the last man standing I'm the last guy still playing you are you are still playing so you managed you managed to find the right size for it the right size for my addiction yeah I mean you're not staying up until dawn anymore are you no no no no there's there had to be a cap do you know what to be honest i came back from a job in germany where i did a lot of it because i was just on my own and i didn't have my family with me and that was quite good and i bought a little laptop to make it like portable yeah but since i've come home and i'm getting into prep and i'm casting i'm working on the script and all that there's just no time for it yeah actually it's been been kind of good but because it's time to be an adult at 45 what game is it what game is it that you're Call of Duty man yeah it wasn't like during the pandemic it was it was running around Verdansk getting killed by like 12 year old guys in China how crazy was that when they did that that first what do they call that big map that they dropped during the pandemic, the fucking...
Verdansk. Yeah, it was fucking crazy, wasn't it? It was crazy, it was so good.
But within a month, those kids were so good at sniping that you couldn't even last for a minute. Like, you'd land and you'd be dead.
We were bad at that game for two years, my squad and I. We were, what was the name? It was K-Chuck.
There was, there was a, because it was the pandemic, one of them named themselves Touch of Flu. And then, and then the other one was Severe, Severe Shock O.
And I was, I was Walker Janeway, which is a character I played in a kind of, a middle-class New York play once. And I'm like, there's people running around going like, I'm going to kill you, Severe Shocko.
I'm going to kill you, Touch of Blue. And then going, I'm going to get you.
Walker Janeway? It was so good. It was like so bougie.
But yeah, no, it was... And do you know what I found as well, right? I've been pals with those guys since my early 20s.
And what was really

special about it was that we'd be

running around going like, push, push,

push, I'm going in. Fucking hell, John, support

me. So when did you say that

you got that procedure done? Oh my God.

That's interesting. I never knew that about you.

And we would just like, bleh, in a way

we never had. Yeah, you know what? It's funny

you say that. As much as I sort of rail against

it too, and I do love gaming, is that

I stayed connected to a lot of guys.

We have this crew of us, the clown crew, we're

Thank you. we never hunt.
Yeah, you know what? It's funny you say that. As much as I sort of rail against it too and I do love gaming is that I stayed connected

to a lot of guys.

We have this crew of us,

the clown crew.

We're still on a text chain

that we've been on since 2007

and that we all play

this game together

and these guys know

and Jason especially knows

because we did a few things

in the gaming thing

and it's like me and Giles

who goes by Kid Lightning

and Mark who goes by

Foreman Beast. He's known as Beast to all of us.
They all call me Wendell because my handle is Wendell Leaf because it's named after my favorite hockey player. And we've had so many moments.
I was texting with the guys this morning. Our buddy Jerry, who we also called Gary for no reason.
Gary just had his second kid and we're all congratulating him on the thing. And we all know each other from the gaming thing.
And there is a community thing. It's really quite nice.
I don't know if you remember, Will. You tried to get me, like years and years and years ago, tried to get me on one of those groups.
I played for maybe seven minutes. Yes, briefly.
And I couldn't exit the thing. I just would get shot every single time right away, and I couldn't figure out.
So I'd be like, let's try it again, let's try it again. And we'd start again, and I'd come out with these guns, and everybody was just bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, like I'd just be dead in two seconds.
It was awful. But it is a good way to connect, and that part of it, I do like that part of it, for sure.
We were so bad at it for two solid years. We never got any better, and it was a lot of fun.
We laughed our asses off.

I love that.

Well, James, you're a lot of fun.

We've laughed our asses off with you today.

We sure have.

And we appreciate your time, my friend.

Very nice to get to know you.

Huge fans of yours.

It's really cool to meet you.

I have a great time directing.

Yes, I talk about you all the time.

I just think you're an incredible actor. Thanks, you guys.
Speak No Evil, out now. It is from the great Jason Blum.
Directed, written by James Watkins, everybody. Speak No Evil.
Check it out. Go and see it.
Yeah, Jimmy Frow. Thanks, Jimmy Frow.
Jimmy Frow. Jimmy Frow with the house.
James McA McAvoy thanks you guys guys thanks a million seriously love your stuff and as performers actors writers directors you're fucking amazing the threes thank you it was really really great to meet you my friend thank you see you around guys cheers bye bye thank you James bye buddy wow hey guys we're back we're back we're back from commercial hi do we do commercial after No, we. Wow.
Hey, guys. Yeah.
We're back. We're back from commercial.
Hi. Do we do commercial after? No, we don't.
We don't. Do you remember hearing a commercial play? He just hung up.
Right, right, right, right, right. So, guys, that was James McAvoy.
And you know what? I got to tell you, I'm not buying the accent. I think he needs to work on that.
Really? You don't think it's? Yeah. I mean, everyone knows he's from Dayton, Ohio, and he's been working on the Scottish things.
Dayton, Ohio. Yeah, no, he's great, though.
Like, I didn't ask him about Narnia and, like, Lion, the Witch, and the Rourjobe. I was obsessed with that book.
Or X-Men. I mean, what's the matter with you? I know.
I know. I'm not, like, a massive X-Men thing.
Like, I think he's great. Walk us through it, though.
What's missing for you with that? No, I like it. It's just...
I just never... It's hooked into...
I mean, I watch them all, and they're great. I'm not a rabid fan of the series.
What about Narnia? But yeah, the Narnia things. I wish they...
Was it The Wardrobe that You Don't Lie for The Witch? No, so he played the fawn. What was his name? The fawns.
Tumnus? Tumnus? Mr. Tumnus? Tummy sticks.
Something like that. And didn't you guys like that book when you were a kid? Of course.
Never read it. Oh, it was the best.
Of course. I read the whole series.
They were fucking great. Yeah.
Great books. Great books.
But anyway, I didn't get a chance to ask him. When he popped on, I was like, oh, I've actually always wanted to meet him.
And so I got to meet him. Who wrote those books? Quick.
C.S. Lewis.
Nice. Yeah, thanks.
Hey, Willie, are you still doing that book club thing? Yeah. When's that launching? Book club with myself.
I don't know. We are going to do, yeah, we are going to be launching the SmartList.
It's been a time thing, but we are going to do the SmartList book club. Yeah.
Because if you mention a book,

I will read it and we can talk about it.

Yeah, yeah.

And JB, thank you for sending us over

those book recos from your pal, from Laura,

which is always, it's nice to get book recos.

Yeah, because you don't want to,

it's like television recos or movie stuff.

Yeah, it's hard to fucking narrow it down.

There's so many fucking books out there.

And I'm going to say that. James kind of looks like if Heath Ledger had a baby with Jude Law.
Right. You know, I was thinking he looks a lot like Josh Charles, our friend Josh Charles.
Do you guys know Josh? Oh, he does remind me of Josh Charles. Certainly.
I love Josh. Baltimore Orioles fan.
Incredible actor. Because he's from Baltimore.
He's a wonderful bloke. He is a wonderful bloke.
Do they say bloke in Scotland? No, they don't. But you know what? That's okay.
I think they might sometimes. That McAvoy, that Jimmy Flow, is it what we call him? Jimmy Flow.
Flow. Jimmy Flow.
Jimmy Flow. Yeah, he's got something about him, doesn't he? He's just cool.
He's very down to earth. He's got a real sort of authenticity to him, which I really respond to.
You like the like the cut of his chip. And you could hang out with that guy.
I could hang out with that guy. He's really cool.
We would hang. We would do some hard hanging.
Every single time he plays. I have a lot of comments for people who walk by.
You know what I mean? A lot of like, look at this fucking guy. You know what I mean?

My favorite chick.

Every time he plays a different character, I totally buy it.

We really snuck that one up on a shiny boy.

Nice going. Smart.

Less.

Smart. Less.
Smartless. Smartless.
Smartless is 100% organic and artisanally handcrafted by Bennett Barbaco, Michael Grant Terry, and Rob Armjarf. Smartless.
so Jason and Willie we have a new show on smartless media called that i'm very very excited sorry just cut off when you said the title goalless goalless right now sean and i are excited about it too but here's what's good sean and i are much more sort of like the uh a bit more of the typical American audience that does not know as much about soccer as you do.

So you have taken that into account with the way in which you've gone about developing this podcast. Yes? Well, I brought in, I want to introduce you guys to the great- The greatest.
Yeah, Russell. Our host.
Russell Howard, Russell Howard. Hello, hello.
Russell Howard, Here he is. Yes.
Russ, here. So, Russ, I'm going to let you describe Goalist because football is my soccer, whatever you want to call it, is my passion.
I love it. But you are our host because you are even more passionate and have grown up in this milieu.
Go ahead, Russell Howard. And also, by the way, for my sister Tracy, one of the most successful stand-up comedians in the UK.
Not related to Ron. No.
Just to be clear. Just to be clear.
Not related to Ron. Yeah, I'm a stand-up comedian from England.
And I was... Thank you, thank you.
I was given the opportunity to do this podcast about football. And basically, it's going to be like a late night sort of show about soccer, football, whatever you want to call it.
We're going to talk about the Champions League. We're going to be interviewing ex-pros, current pros, celebrities that like football.
It's everything you can imagine. Do you have a band? I don't have a band, no.
We'll get you one of those. Okay.
A small band with like a slide flute and a high hat. Imagine that.
If that's the first complaint of the show, it's good. There's a lot of fun in the chat about football.
But where's the plan? Yeah, what about a sidekick? Could you use a band? You're going to talk about Champions League. Now, Jason and Sean, Champions League is the tournament that they do yearly of all the top, basically, in essence, the top four teams from all the domestic leagues all over Europe and the UK play against each other in midweek games throughout the year.
And finally, in the spring, they narrow it down. They start in group play, then they get into elimination.
And by the way, Russell, Will has gotten me excited about soccer. So I actually have to- Oh, it's the best.
Yes. Champions League football is incredible.
At some point, though, at some point we're going to have have to figure out so you don't have to keep saying soccer, I mean football, over and over. We have to figure out what to call them.
But anyway, that's great. I'll call it soccer for you people.
I don't mind. It's just at home, I can't.
If I say football, it's, you know, I'll get beaten up. But this podcast can be listened to all over the world, though, right? So what do you, do you prioritize the American audience, the global audience?

What do you do?

I don't know, Jason.

It's a very difficult one.

We'll wait to see the numbers.

Whoever listens most gets soccer or football. By the way,

the way Russell said,

I don't know, Jason,

that sounds like some PA on Jason's set

when he's like,

what's for lunch?

And they're like,

I don't know, Jason.

Would you fucking leave me alone?

There's a lot of dips, Jason. We know we've been through this when we had David Beckham on.
I think we were talking about, you know that soccer is actually an English term, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
So you know this. Well, exactly.
But it was whatever we want to call it. I can't call it soccer.
It would be like calling my mum mummy. Right.
It feels,

it gives me the ick. But you know,

the British accent covers you. I think anytime

you say football, people are going to think you

mean soccer because you're saying

it was a British accent. Exactly.

And we'll just be, it's

like, not only do I love football,

but it's such an innately funny

sport. Like, the supporters are hilarious.

I don't know if you've never been to a live football game in England, if you go

a long time

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you just you just you just you just you just you just you just but it's such an innately funny sport. Like the supporters are hilarious.
I don't know if you've never been

to a live football game in England,

if you go, you're just being,

oh, it's the best.

I like the singing.

How do you learn?

Is there a website you can go to

to learn the chance before you get to a game?

That's such a good point

because they must meet up in a pub

and harmonize.

So there must be like football hooligans who are sort of sat there in a council flat going, look to me for the changes. Here we go.
You're going home in a fucking ambulance. Come on.
All together. When I listen to Goalless, I want to learn about these things.
I want you to take care of the dingbats like me too. You know, not just the smarties like Will.
Russell, you're a Reds fan. You're a Liverpool supporter.
I am a Liverpool fan, yeah. Yeah, it's the same here.
Hardcore. And I have been, I'm newer, obviously, to it.
It's only been like 10 years for me. Oh, wow.
Yo, yeah, yeah. So what was your in? What was your in? My friend of the podcast, Chappie, Mark Chappell, he's an Englishman who lives in London.
He's going to make it. There it is.
Here's the chappy mesh. He got me into it like 10 years ago when we were working together

and I've become full and I, you know,

now look, I'm into Arne Slott.

I'm so happy he's there.

But Jurgen Klopp has been my hero,

my North Star for years now.

I had the opportunity to hang out with him

a couple of times in the last few years.

He's your coaches.

Wow.

It's just been incredible.

Yeah, and I've gone out of my way

to learn some of the songs,

some of the like, you know,

we conquered all of Europe. We're never going to stop.
From Paris down to Turkey. We've won the fucking lot.
Bob Paisley and Bill Shankly. Let's do it.
Oh, he knows it. The fields of Anfield Road.
We are loyal supporters. And we come from Liverpool.
Now, how do you learn this? Allé, allé, allé. Is it on a website? Like, how do you do that? Yeah, you can look at… Yeah, because you're like, what are they singing? What I love most about it is it clearly is on a website, but there's the fact that Will Arnett has clearly been in his shower.
So you get practicing it. Rehearsing.
Yeah, of course you have. Who gets to decide what songs are going to be sung on what week? Like, do they get changed? Well, this is the point.
Because they're often really funny. I remember there's a brilliant story of the Rangers goalkeeper, Andy Gorham, who basically came out and said he was a schizophrenic.
And his own crowd that week started chanting, there's only two Andy Gorham's, two Andy Gorham's. Oh my gosh.
So that's what I mean. With football, there's sort of like this sort of galaxy around it that is sort of just naturally piss-taking.
Like some of the best moments at a football game happen with the crowd. Like footballers get abuse.
And I'm a stand-up comedian. The heckles you get are nothing compared to footballers.
I remember seeing, I went to a Bath City game. I don't know if I can, this is, there was maybe about 500 people there.
It was Boxing Day. And it was a pre-match warm-up and the goalkeeper was quite a heavy set lad and he was just getting one of the balls out of the net.
And he looked at this kid, he must have been about 11, and he said, did you have a good Christmas? And this little kid went, looks like you did, you fat cunt. And there is no world in which that's allowed.
Like, this poor guy just had to take it from an 11-year-old kid. And it's that just viciousness.
This is the kind of flavor and spice we want to get from you on a weekly basis. It was so fascinating.

And if you've never been to a football game,

I remember taking my wife to watch Liverpool Paris Saint-Germain

and she was just fascinated.

All the sort of French football fans took their tops off

and they were kind of swinging them around.

And it's like this weird church that just goes crazy on a European night.

So basically, that's what the podcast is going to be.

I mean, I love that.

And it's growing and growing and growing.

I mean, like, mean like what's so crazy is i was gonna say that sorry sean but but i was gonna say that kind of that vibe that you get i remember like i said i remember a lot just a couple months ago i was at a at anfield and sitting and watching i think maybe i told you guys this story watching sir kenneth dogler sitting right behind me with his wife and how many times they've been to Anfield. He was a player and a manager, blah, blah, blah.
And them singing, You'll Never Walk Alone. You'll Never Walk Alone.
And his wife dabbing her eyes. Oh.
And so moved by it. Well, he's an incredible man as well.
He's incredible. To get serious, the Hillsborough disaster where a lot of Liverpool supporters died, he went to every single funeral when he was the manager.
Yeah, every single one. And so the club is, you know, it's in his bones.
So I think that song, you know, really takes him to a special place. It is beautiful.
And the whole stadium sings it. By the way, we're sitting there

and the stand opposite us

is the Sir Kenneth Douglas stand.

And he's sitting right behind me.

It was just incredible.

Which is a bit harsh

that they don't let him sit in his own stand.

I know.

No, it's better.

It's better.

He gets to look at it.

He gets to look at it.

You know, Jason and I shared an office once.

And I'd had...

Oh, this is exciting.

And it was a big, long office.

And I had this huge painting from a show.

I wasn't there a lot.

And I had this huge...

He's giving me shit.

And I'd be like, I don't want to be in the fucking...

I had this huge painting of myself from a show.

And one day when he was there, I had to put it behind my desk,

behind where I sat.

So he's always there.

And so he calls me one day and he goes,

why did they put this fucking painting of you? And I go, because when I'm not there, you still get to look at me. Yeah.
Do you know what I mean? I remember doing that years ago. I had loads of kind of posters of various stand-up shows that I'd done.
And I kind of thought, what would be a nice thing to have them? And then I put them up in this room in my house. And then as soon as I put it up,

I just realized it was such a mistake

because it just looks

so weird and arrogant.

I don't know if you've ever seen

that MTV Cribs episode

of Mariah Carey

where she goes to like

this crowded room.

Of course I have.

And she reads all the notes

from her fans.

It was just like,

oh, what have I become, man?

I know.

Yeah, I know.

I know, right?

What a house that was.

But at least we have you and it's you and Chris Whittingham as well. Is that true? That's right.
Yeah, he's a CBS commentator. Yeah.
He's a funny guy, and he knows loads about football. Now, this would be your sidekick.
He is. He's my co-host.
Continue with the late night show analogy. Yeah.
Yeah, he's basically, he's got all the knowledge, and're just going to kind of riff and then we'll have kind of celeb guests. It's going to basically be, it's the dream job for me.
Will, are you going to be the first guest? I'm hoping I will be a guest if they'll ask me. Are you waiting for someone to reach out? Well, yeah, man.
Well, I can reach out right now. Well, I don't want to be presumptuous and think that they want to fucking talk to me.
Because I'm just... I would love to talk to you.
Would you? There it is. We have our first booking.
Have you ever played at Anfield? That would be my first question. I've never played.
I've been on the pitch. Save it for the show.
Save it for the show. Yeah.
Yeah, don't get... Yeah, you don't want to go.
Yeah, try to make a deal. I've seen Mo Salah getting a rubdown after a match.
Okay. And I had, Was that at the changing room or did you just That was at the hotel.
You got a really good telescope? No, no, no, that was through the blinds. Just outside like that, yeah, yeah.
This one fucking truck wouldn't move and I finally got a glimpse. I got the angle I wanted.
I had Darwin Nunez walk by and basically give me a high five holding a towel and he was just in a towel. I mean, some pretty cool...
And were you in the changing room? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right after the match.
That must have felt so awkward. It was very awkward.
What do you do? Because basically they're all having a shower and, you know... You're just waiting with a stack of towels.

Does anyone want a LucasAid or a Gatorade or a Power Bar?

I tell you what they didn't appreciate was my boner.

Yeah, exactly.

That's what you should have done.

You should have got in the shower.

You should have got in the shower with them. I know I should have.

Now you wouldn't have wanted to have me as a guest if I'd been in the shower.

But there's so much to talk about. The football, as you said, Russell, it's so endless, the stories.
And that's what drew me into football, how I became, I love sports, but I became a football fan once I started to understand the stories of who this manager was, who this player was and stuff. That's actually what got, and I started watching all the docuseries about the various things.
So we want to bring on Goalist, kind of bring listeners in so they can start to understand the culture of football, of soccer, right? That's exactly it, yeah. I need that.
I'm actually excited about that. Yeah, me too.
So it premieres, guys, when? 19th of September. 19th of September.
Thursday, September 19th. And two new episodes released each week every Monday and Thursday, which is great.
It's going to be great. Russell Howard and Chris Whittingham, yeah.
Great. That's right.
If you ever find yourself in England, I've got two season tickets to Liverpool. Have you? So I would love to bring you along.
I think that's more for me and Sean that you will. No, no, I could probably get another one.
But to be honest, Will will be down in the showers. Yeah, he will.

Just getting them ready.

Just getting the temperature ready.

Anybody want to get ready?

Yeah, exactly.

Just putting your elbow in.

Yep, that's fine.

Oh, that's going to be so good.

Very nice.

Russell, thank you so much for your time. We're so excited for Goalless.

It's going to be great.

Goalless!

Thanks for it.

I'm really looking forward to it. Nice to meet you.
You too. We'll see you there.
Cheers, fellas. September 19th.
September 19th. All right, chaps.
Have a good day. See you later.
Thanks for us. See you, buddy.
Bye-bye-bye. Hey, friends.
Jason here. We're so excited the SmartList has officially joined the SiriusXM family.
We can't wait to announce new surprise guests who we know that you'll love. If you want to be the first to hear new episodes ad-free in a whole week early, subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts Plus on Apple Podcasts or visit SiriusXM.com slash podcasts plus to start your free trial today.
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