"Ronan Farrow"

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Subject to change. Hey, Will.
Good to see you. I'm glad to see your mustache is still alive.
That's great. Still got the mustache.
Yeah, what do you guys... Is the spirit gum keeping that on or is it just...
Yeah, what is it with people that have mustaches that they're two halves that they don't like yourself? You can't grow a full mustache across the full lip. You know who was cursed with that too? Clark Gable.
Look him up. Oh, boy.
Welcome to Smartless. Smart.
Less. Smart.
Less. Smart.
Less. So, Will, while you've been out of town, Sean has discovered Invisalign.
Oh, I know. And he's just popped it in his head.
Why do you need it for a podcast, guy? I have to wear it 20 hours a day, and I just had it in before we started. Well, let this be one of the hours that you don't.
Yeah. We get four hours without it? No, it's just better to keep it in as much as I can.
But, you know. Much better for who? It's to not for the listener my teeth are going like crazy no but they're actually not your your teeth are totally fine and i think you've fallen into the trap of um sort of vanity health well i don't know i my teeth my teeth are going crooked they're not yeah this one is No, they're not.
They were always crooked. No, no, no.
Why don't you just allow one little flipper, one little fang like everyone else has one that's a little askew and just be less than perfect. I got this one down here.
They are. They're pretty, like, screwy.
I'm just getting older and I want to get ahead of it because they started going crazy hey what about yesterday uh will uh you know sean and i were having a meeting with amanda at um a very nice restaurant with a very respectable person you've heard about i've heard about you and um an old snaggletooth uh pops out his uh his his headge his headgear at the table into his little dish or little snap dish that he keeps in his pocket. You can't eat with it on.
Abel does the same thing. But why don't you go to the bathroom and take that out instead of having – He's got to suck the saliva out of it before he puts it in the tray.
And, you know, we've got a guest. Yeah, no, I know.
I know. Look, I'm just struggling to get through every day.
How do you sound? How is it? I had a lisp. How's your, huh? I had a lisp.
I said to Sean the other day, I said to Sean, are you getting Invisalign because you wanted a lisp just in case people didn't know you were gay. What do you...
What do you... It's called the gay tray.
None of this goes in the show. None of this goes in the show.
Yes, that has to go in the show. If you're looking to pull a question mark off your profile, try gay tray.
A question mark um a gay tray well it's yeah i had a little bit of a list before now it's worse i'm i'm i'm getting through it i'm getting through it okay well if you hit a couple of um but i did just have tough passes in this in this interview we're gonna ask you to pull it out i don't like my chair okay let's pause the interview you guys stay where you are out. I don't like my chair.
Okay. This was a first.
Let's pause the interview. You guys stay where you are.
Keep talking. I don't like my chair.
Okay, we will. Okay.
Gosh, that's so much better. What kind of chair did you get? Just one that wasn't, it was on wheels, and I'm on a Herbert Florist.
It was like sliding all over the place. Are you okay? Are you okay? You just need a sandbag.
Get a shot bag in there for you. I don't know, man.
I should have. All right.
Are you guys, have we caught up? We really haven't caught up that much. We haven't really caught up.
We've got a high-level guest waiting. And Will's, listener, Will's in Atlanta.
I haven't seen him for a couple weeks. I know.
My heart hurts. I miss you.
I've seen Sean. I miss you guys so much.
I'm coming home really soon. When are you coming home? Yeah, when do you come home? I'm going to be home Tuesday.
Did you sleep? Yesterday we had a... I did.
I talked to Sean last night. I was so wrecked.
Have you ever heard me that tired before, Sean? No, not in my own life. And I just got...
I was about to go to bed and Sean called. I can't believe you picked that up.
Maybe there's some kind of an emergency with the Invisalign and I should pick this up. And maybe he choked on it.
I got stuck. Yeah, he thought it was like one of those sort of glass noodles or something that he got from, and then he chewed on it.
A chin-chin special. Yeah.
And so I picked up and then he was telling me about the dinner because obviously I couldn't be at the dinner with you guys. It was concerning stuff that we do together.
And I just was like, uh-huh, uh-huh. And he goes, oh just go can i just call you can i call you tomorrow i go yeah we don't why did you even pick up i realized i don't miss you that much and let's get to our guest guys put all your dumb away and smarten up our guest today is a bright fella and he has opened our eyes to quite a bit over the past few years.
He's a graduate of Yale Law School.

He's a member of the New York Bar.

He has a PhD in political science from Oxford University, where he studied as a Rhodes Scholar.

And he served as a State Department official in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

What have you two done?

Same.

Went to the gym.

He has spent the last decade or two doing some of the most important investigative journalism in our country, both in print and through his production company. His recent and most high-profile work has revealed many interesting and shocking facts about some of the most famous power figures in our country, like Elon Musk, Donald Trump, Les Moonves, and, of course, Harvey Weinstein.
Folks, please welcome Ronan Farrow. Whoa.
Wait a minute. Ronan Farrow.
Let's tighten up. This is amazing.
Ronan came to the show this summer. Did he? Good Night Oscar.
Yeah, I did. I saw Good Night Oscar.
It was amazing. I mean, you can really tinkle the ivories.
What the hell? You should see him play piano. Ronan, did you go backstage and compliment Sean? Yes.
No. And I did.
Very nice. And I gushed over you as I will today.
Just a huge fan. Well, the feeling's mutual.
You're a sophisticated New Yorker. I'm a fan of all three of you.
Thank you, Ronan, and also you. Thank you for saying it, even if it's not true.
We appreciate it. No, it's very true.
Also, by the way, the gravelly baritone from you, I was like, you know, stifling saying something. It was so turned on when you just came on.
Isn't it? It's real deep. Are you talking to him? Yeah, no, no.
No, I'm talking to you, Will. I think he's talking about me! Ronan, you've got a voiceover quality voice.
Have you ever done any... Do I? I love hearing that.
Because I very lightly dabble in anime and video game voice acting. Oh, really? Is that true? Yeah.
Just because more that I'm a nerd than anything else. I think I play a character called Mitsubishi Man who has like three lines in one Miyazaki movie.
Really? Mitsubishi Man. It's a guy who will fix your catalytic converter with no questions asked.
Yeah, where are your air conditioner? Now, you are, as I said, you're a sophisticated New Yorker that frequents the arts.

Can you confirm for me this thing where if you go see a play and you have a recognizable name, you are obligated to go backstage. Jason's obsessed with this.
Well, I just, I need to know if this is real. I'm with you.
If you don't go backstage. It's so funny how much he loves talking about it.
Regardless of whether you know anyone in the cast,

if you're somewhat known,

if you don't go backstage. It's so funny how much he loves talking about it.
Regardless of whether you know anyone in the cast, if you're somewhat known, if you don't go backstage, they know about it and they think you hated the show. And so you kind of have to go back and say, hi, I'm famous, you're famous.
You don't have to. Love the show.
Let him answer. I love this runner through the different episodes of this show.
It's one of the bits of commentary I love with you on your interactions with other famous people and the ways in which those are great or not great. But it sounds like mostly you sort of, you do a little theater of it's not all great, but then all the points you make are about how great it is.
Yeah. Jason, well, you should also know that he's also trying to gauge where he, because he's been famous since he was really young.
So he's looking back at his life and he's like, how many times have I been a dick? been rude yeah i think that's part of it well the truth is i i think about this a lot like because i also had this crucible of tabloid bullshit around me you know as a kid and then why and then i did work that you know got me even more what happened um and um and yeah so i think about it a lot and the particular kind of work I do where it's an occupational hazard to piss people off who then either like go to jail or like get fired or something and then they have nothing but time and money to come after me there's a real genuine mix of good and bad I want get into that, but quickly end this silly question of mine. Like, I just find it like, hey, you're famous, I'm famous.
That's why I'm backstage. But is that true? Is that an acceptable thing in New York culture just to go back simply because you're also famous? It does seem to always happen.
And I think there's a bit of a sense of obligation that you all must experience. If you know someone in the show or peripherally are connected to them, then it feels like a little bit of an omission.
That's the rule. Thank you for your indulgence.
Now, let's get to what you were talking about because it was deeper in my question lineup here, but let's get right to it about you know your your your incredible investigative journalism has yielded some uh unhappy uh folks on the other side i would imagine so how do you how do you sort of gird your you know get yourself ready for the possible blowback like i mean all the way up to and including do you have 24 hour a day security Or is that something that you ever had to consider? I don't. I mean, I almost hesitate to say it to create an opening for people.
But I've been followed around and staked out and had to not be in my apartment or move, actually, in one case. Crazy.
The weirdest physical surveillance coming after me thing was not even the getting followed around, but when I did some reporting that ultimately was at the heart of the first of those Trump indictments about the hush payments during the election. The catch and kill thing? It involved his relationship.
Yeah, exactly. The catching and killing of stories on his behalf by the National Enquirer.
Yeah, right. And the Enquirer, which was led by some very vindictive people and in some ways was a sort of blackmail or blackmail-adjacent business model that they had come up with.
Like, there were people seducing me? They published my, like, sexts with someone? You can imagine

the trust issues forever.

But they've been very good about

surveillance and

I put in quotes, research

for years and years and years.

That's sort of their model, right?

So they had a bunch of resources.

And I got all these messages from celebrities

who have been brutalized by them

and endured similar things, saying like, God, thank you for writing about this. But despite all of that, I haven't gone to the place of getting around the clock security.
Yeah, I don't even know how I would make that work economically. And the truth is, I don't want to overstate the case.
Like, I'm very with the work I've done in different parts of the world. I actually did a film with two wonderful filmmakers, Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady, that was just up for an Emmy.
Bravo to them. I can take very little credit because they did everything on the creative end.
But following journalists under threat through the pandemic. So seeing a lot of those stories of people whose lives are in jeopardy all the time, I'm very conscious of the fact that this is a much lower grade thing.
I experienced him in a country with good rule of law. And like it's psychologically taxing.
But the actual sort of getting followed around height of threats to physical safety, I feel is something that ebbs and flows. And I've been okay without heavy security.
Right. But you're talking about endangered, right? I mean, this was, yeah, about the sort of that the encroachment kind of on press freedoms.
And do you feel like maybe this is kind of the start of that possible encroachment here by leaning on folks like you that are uncovering necessary truths that we all need to know about, but they're trying to keep that stuff down by intimidating journalists. Is that a creeping problem in this country? Well, I certainly agree with the idea that it is a creeping problem, broadly speaking, whether I'm representative of that or not.
And I think it's something we need to talk about more because it's not just journalism that's at stake. It's a sign of encroaching fascism, right? This is not a new thing in history.
It's one of the tactics that gets deployed, this characterization of the press as an enemy of the people that we saw during the Trump administration. that is tale as old as time.
That's sort of the first thing to try to separate the public from the facts and reduce accountability so that people can pursue power unjustly. It feels like the first play in the playbook is to muddy the waters.
And if you can do that, and then people just don't know what to believe right so they can't free for all right it's a free for all so you can't forget reading about the truth you can't discern between the because you can't trust any of it right and that's what they want and if you can and if you can build that level of distrust then you're winning it'll never it'll never win it'll never win and of course the press is imperfect so and and sometimes its own worst enemy enemy. I mean I've done a lot of writing about the brokenness of media institutions and the suppression of important stories and stuff and I've experienced some of that.
I occupy an odd place in this discourse because I've been on all sides of it because it's hard for people I think to absorb this as a truth. The skepticism about the existence of journalists that aren't motivated by partisanship is very extreme right now.
So when I do a story about, you know, that adversely affects a Democrat and then a story that adversely affects a Republican, it's like each of those constituencies affected doesn't see the other piece of what I'm doing. So I'll get moments where Tucker Carlson is doing a really flattering monologue about how I'm heroic for exposing some Democrat.
I never agreed to do that show, to be clear, as a matter of principle. But it was an odd, strange bedfellows thing that the right was very into some of this reporting when it suited them.
But then I'd do reporting that was unflattering to a Republican, and I'd get the opposite. I'd get all this blowback and reputational smears and stuff.
So yeah, it's a time I'm very disillusioned with in terms of the threats to the press. Do you see a fix? I know it's such a general question, but do you see a fix to this issue about how people now absorb the news that they get? Obviously, it's, again, a topic that's a tale all the time.
Everybody's fed what they want to read and what they want to absorb and digest. How do you break through to get the truth out to everybody all at once? Is there a person? Is there an outlet? Is there a thing? Is there a future where all of us will get all the same facts at the same time? It's really hard.
I don't think we're going back to that. Sorry to interrupt, but Sean, you're starting to sound like Jason.
I know. Jason always wants it.
I want answers. He's spreading.
Isn't there an absolute truth that we can then just refer to? Can't we fix this before the end of the day? I really like that aspect of this show. And it's really naive.
There is, whether you guys want to cop to it or not, there's an idealism in these conversations that you have. For sure.
It's blissfully ignorant. Yeah, we're simple folks.
Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

Sorry, I just wanted to point that out.

I don't think there's an easy answer to this.

I don't think we're going back to the Walter Cronkite monoculture.

And I don't think we're going back to the same kind of trust in institutions.

There's a lot of things that feed into this.

The declining trust in institutions is in all sectors.

It's particularly acute with media. but it is a general trend line.
Technology obviously changes this in an irreversible way, particularly the greedy algorithms that have come to understand that extremism and misinformation sells better, generates more clicks. And experts on radicalization talk about this a lot,

that the way those algorithms work is like,

if you get someone,

like I did all this work unmasking people

in security camera footage during the January 6th rioting,

you know, in the siege of the Capitol.

They were on a tour.

And there was a sort of, there was a crowdsourced movement. Can you not...
They were just tourists thrown in. Have you never seen anyone tourist touring before? Did you not see any of the footage? They were touring.
Anyway. That's what my story said, actually.
These, these lovely tourists. Sure.
The crowd was, like, scrubbing through these videos frame by frame, like, using facial recognition and trying all sorts of ways to find these people. And I was able to identify a few collaborating with those people who were doing that crowdsource movement at a time when they were on the run and had not surrendered themselves to the FBI, but there were wanted posters and stuff.
And it was, I highlight that context partly because you wouldn't think they would be confessional at a moment like that, but they all were. And the through line, obviously each case was different, was definitely this phenomenon we're talking about.
Like, you know, it's the Pennsylvania mom who has eight kids and she gets on Facebook and it's showing her extremist stuff and they happen to grab someone like that who's already mad at mask mandates and then they just get fed more and more content of escalating and they got her yeah it's and it's the I don't mean to put soul blame on that but it's a definite factor and it goes to the point that that you're making that everyone is sort of in their own bubble consuming things that they agree with uh and it encourages them to dig in more deeply rather than do the thing we should all be doing, obviously, which is to be open-minded to the facts wherever they may lead. We'll be right back.
Our show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Hey guys, everybody should have a support system, right? Who's your support system? My support system, as you well know, talk about all the time is Scotty.
And of course my two besties, Will and Jason, whenever I have a problem, an issue, I talk to them about it. And if they're not available, I will talk to a therapist and I've been going to therapy for a long time and it's always great.
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And now, back to the show.

I'd like to get into our guest a little bit here about where one gets the amount of intelligence you've managed to pack inside your head there.

Now, was there a lot of, did you eat a lot of wheat germ as a kid? Was there like carrots? It's always diet. That's it.
If you feed your kid enough wheat germ, they will get a Pulitzer Prize. That's what I've heard.
Okay, confirmed. It's in the box.
What do you eat to become a Rhodes Scholar? There's wheat germ and carrots, I'm thinking. I'm always tempted, by the way, when I get some variation on this question to say something truly insane.
Like, you know, I just eat... The Joe Rogan thing.
Like, Joe is right. I eat six tins of sardines every day.
Is that what he said? And then you cold plunge. You cold your plunge.
Yeah, that's it. Cold plunge your window.
Does he really swear by sardines? Yeah, yeah. There was a little news item recently where he apparently thought he was getting poisoned because he was getting too much mercury from the sardines.
I think about sardines and I get bloated. No, they're very rich.
They're really good and they are very healthy and moderate. There's a lot of sodium, guys.
Well, because they're not predator fish. They're petite prey fish.
They're full of salt and my face can't have it. So that's always safer in terms of the contaminants.
Your face does look good. I want to do what you're doing.
I appreciate you. I've been slimming for this interview.
He doesn't. No.
Quiet, Will. He's like a milk bag when you touch him.
So you skipped a few grades. Quiet.
You skipped a few grades in school. You entered college at a very young age.
I want to know how that sort of educational experience. A few grades?

Yeah, a few grades.

What was it? It was seven.

It was seven grades. I did a Doogie Howser thing.

No, you did not. That's why I'm so socially

maladjusted, guys.

There's only 12 grades before college.

You skipped seven of those?

I skipped seven of them. Yeah, I went to college at 11.

Are you serious?

Holy shit.

Wait a second. Wait, Ronan, you went to Yale at 11? No, I went to Bard for undergrad at 11.
I got into Yale a lot 15, 16. I actually took a little time then to do, I did some UNICEF work.
I was like a youth spokesperson in a couple of African countries.

I mean, I'm really proud of my children,

but a little less now.

Hey, Ronan, ask these guys what the last book they read was.

Yeah.

Oh, are we avid readers here or no?

This is a smart group, jokes aside.

I enjoyed Tom Sawyer a lot.

Does that count?

It's going back.

Huckleberry Finn.

John, what about you? What, the last book I read? Last book read? Pamphlets don't count The Giving Tree, I don't know This guy's writing books Ronan, when was your last book that you wrote? Catch and Kill, 2019 I think I have the next one that's going to be a book I'm doing this sort of transmedia approach. Are we making news right now? We like to make news on this.
No, no. I can never get into specifics on investigative topics that haven't hatched yet because I always further to the point of people can be skeptical or not, but I am genuinely led by what's the biggest but also most interesting and hopefully humanistic story.
Like how can I ferret out the intricacies of the characters involved and be compassionate in the portrayal of even the bad people and so forth. And it's not about politics.
And part of that being led by the facts and making sure that those are the kinds of stories that I do and the way that I do them is I have to be willing to throw them in the trash if they don't pan out. I've done six months of work on a really giant political story that I didn't think was wrong factually, but I felt like it wasn't the misconduct being alleged wasn't serious enough and the way the facts came together wasn't bulletproof enough.
We're fine with hearsay. If you want to just let us know just the rumors.
Yeah, yeah, I'll just give you the gossip. So I can't talk about specifics, but yeah, I'm doing this like transmedia approach in a lot of cases where I'll do a print story for the New Yorker and then either during or after or some combination do it as a podcast or an HBO series.
My documentary business is at HBO, which has been interesting because I think, you know, I grew up up with a love of film and I got my start as a TV news anchor. And I do love being able to tell the stories in different ways.
But what is one of my questions I think Sean was saying, and he was going to ask you this too, how do you pick? And I'm sure you've answered this a million times. I apologize.
But what guides your picking of stuff to investigate? It's a matrix of different factors. I think you want to assess, will it potentially do some good in the world? Not in an activist way where it's not an op-ed when I'm doing this particular kind of relatively clinical investigative work.
But you do want to find some social relevance in it. Yeah, you want to pick the stories where something potentially could change, not necessarily because you're proposing a specific change, but because those are the exciting, meaningful stories a lot of the time that cause people to sit up and take notice.
And then you are looking at not just the strengths of the facts and constantly assessing as the facts come in, okay, is this like a slam dunk story on the journalistic side? But also, especially as you move between those different formats, is it a narrative arc that people can relate to

and understand emotionally?

Are there people involved that are rich, complicated characters

that people will potentially connect to?

Talk to us about the thing that really drew you

to public service in government

and how that changed or didn't change

I don't know. the thing that really drew you to public service in government and how that changed or didn't change, meaning is it the same thing that drew you into journalism? Was it a sense of altruism that then transferred into something different? Or do you find, did you find the same, the same draw in both? Well, it's, it's like probably for most of us to some extent or other, there's a mix of altruism and belief in public service and caring about other people and narcissism and ego and wanting to be successful and that led to most of these decisions you're asking about.
I was very fortunate to grow up with my mom,

who is a big fan of yours, Jason, by the way.

I'm a big fan of hers.

I'm so lucky to have worked with her. She really liked you.

Yeah, I liked her a lot.

I hope you guys get to work together again.

I'm trying to, like, encourage her to work more.

Wait, what was that?

This was actually a film for the Weinstein Company

called The Ex with Zach Braff and Amanda Peet

and Charles Grodin and Mia. Oh, yeah.
I played an asshole in a wheelchair. Wait, was Amy in that? What's that? I think Amy was in that.
Amy was in that. What was it called? It was called The X.
It was actually if I recall from the deepest recesses of my mind, it was a script at the time titled Fast Track and it was like a workplace comedy and then Harvey Weinstein acquired it and did like a very Harvey Weinstein thing which is he did reshoots and recut it and changed the premise that it was then called The X and it was a relationship comedy. I'm not sure where the title change came from but I do remember very clearly the whole reshoot reshoot uh scenario where you know my character i played an asshole in a wheelchair going after zach braff's girlfriend uh amanda pete and uh and and his zach braff's character's theory was that i was faking it in the wheelchair that he's he's making grounds on my lady because my lady feels bad for him and and i He's not even injured.
He's faking it in the wheelchair.

And the truth is that I really was somebody that couldn't walk. And then they tested the movie, and my character was testing a little bit too likable because, you know, he was an asshole in a wheelchair.
It's fun to hate. I thought you were going to say, yeah, you know, because, you know, I'm so likable.
And so they figured, well, now that's making Zach Braff's character seem very unlikable because he's the lead and he's trying to, you know, expose me. Anyway, so their big idea was to, well, let's make it so that he really is faking it to adjust the, and so that was going to be the reshoot and was the reshoot.

There was a big scene.

We had to reshoot where I stand up.

And I was like, well, wait a second.

I don't know if I'd play the character if I knew he was faking it.

And I had a phone call with Harvey Weinstein

where I said to him, I said,

what are the Screen Actors Guild rules?

Can you really just make me reshoot a scene

that changes the character completely?

And now I'm a guy who's faking it. i he's like yep you're doing it it's like okie doke we shot like 30 pages of new pages yeah jesse was that uh yeah jesse parrots directed it the great jesse parrots wow yeah anyway mia was awesome and while we're on the digression, yeah, I have been trying to encourage my mom to be more game to work.
I think there was a period of time where she just, she had so many, you know, bad industry experiences. Oh, yeah.
People really came after her. There was a Woody Allen bullshit.
And she's sort of, she's such an incredible actress, and because of those experiences, because she started as a kid, basically, and she was on Pete and Place as a teenager, she doesn't fully own her talent in the way that I hope she can. Like, every time she does something, people are so bowled over, and it gives people so much.
So, yeah so I'm kind of just trying to encourage her to own that. Yeah.
It's kind of absurd that you're talking about Mia Farrow. Yeah.
Your mom. It's like in this way, like, I wish she really...
She's one of the great actresses. Yeah, I wish she'd really get out there and realize how good she is.
Yeah. Because, you know, there's someone from me who didn't grow up close to that sort of thing.
Like, I think, like you did grow up so close to that, which must have... It's interesting that you...
I mean, that you just went kind of 180 degrees away from that in a lot of ways, right? Yeah. I mean, that you just went into academia.
Well, I did and I didn't. I did in the practical sense of the choices that I was making, but actually the philosophical underpinning very much comes from her.
She is altruistic, I think at times to a fault. It's genuine too.
It's not performative. She really is obsessed with helping people and has probably made questionable decisions at times because of it.
She adopted all of these kids with special needs, which was this beautiful, wonderful thing, but also a source of much, much chaos in my childhood. I was just going to ask that, yeah.
Yeah, so it's complicated. Did she ever pull over and try to pick up a hitchhiker because she felt like they needed a ride and it was just a real bad decision? She was very much that kind of person, and I think it's taken a lot of being brutalized by the world to disabuse her of that.
Mother, do not slow down the car. But Ronan, just from a perspective, you can talk about it as much or we can cut it or whatever, but just from a perspective of me growing up with a single mom and a large family, not nearly as large as yours, what was that like? Because I always say we kind of all had to figure out, even though we had an amazing mom like your mom, my mom was incredible too, and ran a food bank for the poor and the homeless.
And, you know, some of the food we got was from the food bank because we were in that situation too. But so I put my mom on a pedestal too.
At the same time, we had to kind of of parent ourselves and did you growing up in such a

large family feel that sense because there's so many kids you know you'd have to ask my different siblings about their experience of that my perception was always is one of the amazing things about her she was incredibly attentive like she knit every single one of us a christmas stocking with our name on it and like a relevant graphic.

Wow.

You know, she were real rituals. So she, even in the midst of a lot of chaos and painful stuff and, you know, me getting dragged in and out of courtrooms and rammed through crowds of paparazzi and helicopters overhead, you know, to get to school.
You know, there was a lot of, and also loss. I had a lot of immediate family members die over the course of my childhood.
So there was a lot there that didn't work. But one of the things that did work is what you're asking about.
Like she's an incredibly attentive mom. Yeah, same.
Almost in a superhuman way. And all of that redounded to me really caring in my worldview about compassion and altruism.
And look, I think there are pros and cons to this. The moral framework I was given was like, we're not really here.
She would deny this, by the way, but my interpretation of it anyways. I was taught not to care about personal happiness, that the first goal was you're here with privilege and responsibilities and you must work to improve the lives of others.
And that is the source of true happiness. But that's the very long-winded answer to your question, that I wanted to do things that helped others.
How big is your therapist's yacht? Because you... Yeah, that's a lot of stuff.
Here's the craziest thing, Will. I only did therapy for the first time other than like court-appointed expert stuff in my childhood, which is probably why I then didn't leap to therapy after.
You would make a therapist so happy, though, because your ability to articulate your feelings and you are so beautifully vulnerable and human. And I bet you can have incredible conversations with a therapist.
I mean, I've loved mine. I mean, well, I, you know, I have found it late in late in life.
Like during the pandemic, I was actually, it did take hitting a bit of psychological rock bottom. I had been driving so hard with the philosophy that you, that we've been talking about.
Like I've just got to give and give and give. And, and to the point I made earlier about it being a cocktail of selfish and, and giving instincts.
Like I also, I had been so scrutinized from such an early age and with so much expectation. I wanted to do things that were 180 from my family.
I wanted to be taken seriously. My early professional experiences where I'd be, like, talking about an infrastructure project in Pakistan and they'd, like, want to ask me about my family and stuff just made me very, very committed to being so, so serious and such an overachiever that I could get out of that.
And it took becoming so kind of souped up and like prominent in my own right for my work. I had to be involved in these like major kind of culture shifting moments to get out of that.
And then finally I could do it. I could go on a book tour and never get asked about my family.
I did it. It had downsides though.
I think I alienated myself from people by over-credentialing. Have you ever talked to Anderson Cooper about it? We talked to him a little bit about he's gay.
You must know him. He's gay.
Yeah. I see him and Sean at the gay fucking, hang on, let me write this down.
Let me write this down. No, but I was going to say that I remember he had a very sort of similar answer when he would say that that was the thing that was always sort of the flag, the red flag when he was on a date, how soon somebody asked about his mom.
And, of course, hilariously, he talked about how Andy Cohen, Andy asked him in like 10 seconds. So they became good friends.
But, yeah, I mean, that's a difficult thing, right? Yeah, I also have a very, very famous friend of ours, very close, that you would know. And this person comes from an extremely...
I don't know, do you know Milton Berle? This person comes from an extremely famous family that everybody knows. And this person, to your point, Ronan, is, would shun all questions, didn't want to talk about her family.
Her identity is not that. I do not, you know, I am am this person over here i've created this world for

myself and in doing so through many many many many years of evolution and growth she was like she learned the balance of embracing both right and bringing that in and not being not ashamed at all it's just uh it's your own personal identity and figuring out the path that that's in the middle somewhere. I've had that journey myself.
I remember vividly, so there's fame, and then there's this particular sub-genre of fame that's particularly awful and enduring in a troublesome way of fame connected to generationally defining sex scandal.

And there's just a kind of prurience and shock element

that 30 years later does not go away.

And I remember vividly running into Chelsea Clinton at some event,

and this was before I had done a lot professionally.

I think it was right as I was getting out of the walk.

I just recently met her. What a great woman.

She's so, so, I really enjoyed being here.

She's probably one of the few people who has that very, very specific

I don't know. right as I was getting out of law.
I just recently met her. What a great woman.
She's so, so, I really enjoyed meeting her. She's probably one of the few people who has that very, very specific, awful shadow over her from childhood.
And worse than me, right? Because she was in the White House dealing with and all that. But similar in some ways.
And I remember, this is, you know, prior to my having done any work in the world and people really only knew me through that family stuff.

And someone came up at this event and was introducing me or saying hello to me in a way that foregrounded the family stuff.

Like, oh, here's this Nepo baby or whatever.

And she was so forceful.

I don't know if she would even recall this,

but clearly she had the same chip on her shoulder that I had,

was my reading of it, which may or may not be fair to her but she was like he's his own person like he's done his own things um and I'm like Chelsea are you talking about you yeah um and and I do think like different people respond to that in different ways but for me I've learned the peril of that first of all because if you refuse talk about it, people are just much more curious. Second of all,

I think the wanting

to dissociate yourself from it

is very fair and understandable, but ultimately

kind of finding peace in yourself does require

reconciling all of those parts of you

and all of those parts of your past.

And drawing strength from it.

Yeah, and you've got to get a lot of that managed

before you start what

becomes your new immediate family. Yeah.
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We all spend every single day of our lives with our mom our dad and our sibling until you're you know 18 20 whatever it is you move out and then you you see them less and then eventually you meet the person that becomes your everyday person your your spouse and then you meet your kids you know when they're born and you see the people you used to spend every day with maybe once or twice, three, four times a year at holidays and stuff, you know. So how are you now transitioning into that place of family, the new meaning of family for you, for all of us as we become adult children? Do you idealize the notion of family? Talk to us about your personal life to the extent you're comfortable about.
You said you want to have kids and all that stuff. Where does all that stuff sit with you right now? Well, this goes back to the joke about therapy.
I did actually, there was this moment in the pandemic where the work slowed down because the world was slowing down, but the attacks were still coming, and it was like every day or at all hours getting these crazy shakedown attempts, like going back to the Inquirer example, like crazy letters from the Inquirer having retained ideologue, right-wing crazy lawyers who might have actually brought a case saying, we're going to sue your pants off for defamation if you, if you don't, uh, you know, pay us like some crazy, like a joke amount, like $50 million overnight. Um, and all of these like reputational smears and people I'd pissed off trafficking dossiers.
And once in a while they'd like make their way into the mainstream press. And it, it's interesting.
I've since, um since stumbled into all of this like serious peer-reviewed psych literature about how attacks that threaten your core sense of identity and place in society are actually at times more ready instigators of PTSD symptoms than even like threats of physical harm, that those are the ones that damage people the most. It was helpful for me to understand that because for a long time I kind of kicked myself and beat myself up over it.
I've been in war zones, I've been in dangerous situations, I've been followed around, but the shit I care about is like, what is page six saying? But it was really hard for me. And it finally did prompt me to start working on myself.
And I did some, this goes to your question of how do I build my adult identity and my path towards hopefully being a good partner and maybe eventually a good parent. I started putting in the work.
I did a couple of years of cognitive behavioral therapy and then found a great, more traditional analyst. I think those tools can work for some people, not work for some people.
There's good practitioners, bad practitioners, but I found someone great in the end. That was helpful for me.
And I think part of allowing myself to work on that was not stepping away from, but tempering the philosophy of like any minute I don't spend helping someone else, I am morally failing. Letting myself work for myself occasionally.
Yeah, taking care of number one.

And it was extra hard for me to do that

as someone who had always been in the press

and people having these expectations.

But the example that you lived with called your mother

is, you know, we always, as we get to adulthood,

we go, we rebel in different ways.

And some of those are like,

I see what my mom did in my, I'm speaking for myself. I see what she did.
I see what she did to an extreme. And again, going back to the balance thing, which is the hardest for any human to do is to balance, you know, the good from the bad and where do I lie in between? And as much as you celebrate your mom and I celebrate my mom, there are extremes, you know, and it's okay to recognize that and go, oh, where's me in all of this? Yeah, and you find your version of their advice and their guidance.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, exactly that.
And like we aspire to do it better than our parents did it and we're going to fuck it up inevitably in new and exciting ways. And, you know, we have to just be kind both to the parents.
Like I think part of this path is you're not idealizing your parents, but you are greeting. There are complications with kindness and understanding.
And then part of it is also being kind to ourselves, right,

as we make those mistakes.

Well, you have to let yourself off the hook,

and you also can't let past things.

You can't use, I think that one of the traps that I know

that I have fallen into in the past,

and that I used to do more,

was to use those past experiences

and to make myself feel shitty about it

or to beat myself up about it.

And believe me, if beating yourself up about it

Thank you. and to make myself feel shitty about it or to beat myself up about it.
And believe me, if beating yourself up about it worked, I'd be cured. It doesn't work.
Do you know what I mean? It just doesn't. I know exactly what you mean.
I mean, I really have to work on this in an ongoing way because I have the most punishing interior voice. Just like anything I do that is not perfect, I am so cruel to myself.
And I'm also, I'm like a hypersensitized person to other people. And there's different bodies of literature that categorize that in different ways, but I'm like anxiously attached.
I'm a super sensitive person. So there's these studies where people who exhibit those traits, they show them videos of a face slowly morphing from one expression to another, and they actually detect the change earlier than other people, but they also have an inclination to draw conclusions from that prematurely.
I completely relate to that. I completely identify with that.
And I call it thin slicing. And I've long felt like I have an ability to thin slice and sometimes to my own detriment.
By the way, I also have a very punishing inner voice. And you're lucky because mine sounds like this.
Mine is fucking like right here. Mine's like you.
Why am I so turned on again? By your cruel internal voice. I suspect most I suspect most performers and I'm not a performer per se but I do like make a living on TV.
There's a performative aspect or a communicative aspect. I think a lot of those people are probably hypersensitized in that way.
And there's a nexus of the cruel interior voice and the public scrutiny and the hypersensitivity to the public scrutiny. Like I care so much what other people think.
I care so much about the random Twitter cruel tweet. And there's so much cruelty.
I think that gets a bad rap though. You know, I think it's such a healthy thing to, to be, I think, aware of as opposed to concerned with, it's just semantics, how you're coming across.
I mean, it's certainly what the three of us do for a living with, with acting. That's, that's our, our job.
We're professional liars in, in, in the way in which we come across, right? We're trying to trick people. And so in that comes an inherent ability or need to know how you're coming across and to be concerned with whether that's an accurate perception.
Well, first of all, the notion that when people say, and I've had it from people I grew up with who have nothing to do with entertainment, and they're like, you know, they all Canadian so they all sound like this. You guys care what you look like, eh? And I'm like, yeah, everybody does, motherfucker.
And nice try. It's called a mirror.
If you have a mirror, you care too. There wouldn't be any store selling fashion and there wouldn't be any makeup for sale and there wouldn't be anything.
So A, go fuck yourself. And B, yeah, that's how I know why because that's how i make my living and i get and we now live in a world where i get to hear everybody's opinion in real time from everywhere on the planet yeah and it make it keeps you nicer if you're concerned or are aware aware of what people think about you i think you know to the extent you're able to handle it then then then then take it on because it it keeps you kind and And it keeps you aware of what people think about you.
I think, you know, to the extent you're able to handle it,

then take it on because it keeps you kind

and it keeps you aware of other people.

What is it that you do?

Well, this is Jason to interrupt for a moment.

What you just expressed,

what you have taken away from being in a firestorm

of public opinion about yourself,

it is not necessarily the norm. And I've seen all kinds of people who wind up very distorted by it.
And it can lead to kind of more ego. But I'm fascinated by the fact that actually, to what I can observe, everyone in this group has taken from that experience all of these good, beautiful, caring things.
How do you do that? I hope that I'm achieving that myself, but I'm interested in how others get there. You seem self-aware.
I mean, I think it's about being, first of all, it's about who you surround yourself and your friends are. Well, and also considering the sources.
Like, consider the, like, anytime somebody writes a horrible thing about me, there's been tons of stuff my whole life. Yeah.
It's like you go, at some point, you know, when you're much younger, I was like, oh my God, I'd cry and crawl in a corner. And I'm like, oh, that person is miserable.
Not me. When you were talking about your scary voice inside that chastises you, what is the thing that wakes that monster up the most? What do you do that most disappoints you? What's your dumbest shit? Because you're such a smart, insightful guy.
I can't imagine you doing something that would really warrant a real talking to. It's a good point.
Yeah, it is almost always not rational. And I've been shielded both by my, I think, generally good, strong moral code and instincts, and also surrounding myself with other people who have those qualities.
Like I've had points in my career very prominently where, you know, I've been with like very like craven, corporate power hungry people who, when the rubber meets the road, and there's, you know, a tough story unfolding, they're awful, they're cowardly and it's so disillusioning and disappointing. But I have over time been able to refine the chosen family professionally, not just personally, to include more people who are big-minded, big-hearted, have good values and have good systems for enforcing those values.
So like the New Yorker is this magical, esoteric place where all of these like intellectuals with tons of virtue, not that they get it perfectly right all the time, of course, it's human beings, but I have been so impressed, even in cases where there's a disagreement about a story and I'm the reporter saying like, I've worked on this for months, I want to get it out. Here are all the arguments.
Why? The counter arguments are always rooted in, like, good journalistic ethics. So I've been protected by that from the real mistake.
Like, there haven't been inaccuracies in the story, even when the stories, when they're under attack. It's withstood all of that.
And I have gradually come to trust myself more and be less punishing because I've seen over time that I do make good decisions. And I think I am increasingly trusting of the idea that I can pull off both.
I can scrutinize my decisions and learn each time to be better without being punished. But you don't have one reoccurring blind spot.
Like you're always an angry driver and you're mad at yourself or honking at everyone. Jason, what are the things that you beat yourself up about it? Let me guess the first five.
Yeah, I'm curious about this, Tim. First five? The first five you should.
I guess. Let me rephrase.
How did I write this down?

I had said, Jason, here is my list of things you'd like to talk to me about.

Side zoom.

Fucking massive.

With all, you know, you're just amazing. Your brain is gorgeous and beautiful.

You're gorgeous and beautiful.

Yeah, as is your skin and your hair.

Christ.

Everything. The fucking lips on him and everything.
I know, it's kind of incredible. The what now? Can I just spend more time with this group? It's true.
I just got a call from HR, by the way. Wait, I have a question.
By the way, an aside on that, I've had work situations where, I guess ironically, given some of the work I've done on sexual harassment and stuff, where I'm getting that treatment, I'm getting objectified, and I'm just not a self-actualized enough person to not like it a little. I'm actually like, you know what? I'm cool with this.
Tell me more. I've I like this.
I've gotten so much more validation over the years for, like, you know, just the intellectual stuff. The work, yeah.
Being a piece of meat is great when it happens. Well, when you get into litigation, let the record show Sean started it.
Yeah, so wait, no, so actually, to that point with the intellectual stuff and all that, and all that fuels the fire in your belly and you continue to do all that stimulates that gorgeous brain of yours. What beyond of that excellent work in your life excites you? What outside of all this, when are you silly? What do you let it go? All that kind of stuff.
Are you a video gamer? Like, what do you do? I am, yeah. So it actually took me a lot of time to understand that that stuff, I mean, this goes back to the broad philosophical conversation, right? That a life that's just about the work.
I mean, I missed every major friend's wedding because I was like off interviewing a warlord. That's an actual thing that happened.
I'm so sorry to my friend Jen, whose wedding I was supposed to sing at and then I missed completely to go interview General Dostum in Afghanistan. I made that choice every time and now I am making the choice to do the fun stuff, to just find joy and yet keep the work going and have the work be informed by that.
I think if you're kinder to yourself, you can be kinder to others. So yeah, I love being social.

I mean, I like going deep with small groups and one-on-one, but I also love, like,

I love video games.

I love all nerd culture.

I love sci-fi.

I do, too.

I love reading.

Oh, boy.

Here comes Sean and Scotty.

I read all the time.

Are you a gamer, Sean?

No, not a gamer.

Huge sci-fi.

Yeah, Sean and Scotty

they have

Star Trek Night

it's Star Wars

how dare you

you would

yeah I'm more

a Star Wars guy

and I really admire

the world view

of Star Trek

kind of more

that it's more

about intellectual curiosity

but I haven't

taken the time

to dig deep

I haven't seen

a lot of it

but let me guess

the good guys win?

I mean

Jesus

says the guy

with the gravelly voice

Thank you. taking the time to dig deep.
I haven't seen a lot of it, but let me guess. The good guys win? I mean, Jesus.
Says the guy with the gravelly voice and the mustache. I want to start with all the old Shatner stuff.
I want to really go back and take the time on that at some point. Well, we're 16 minutes over here.
I apologize, but I could talk to you for a whole day. It's such a great conversation, and I really am sincerely

such a fan of all of yours.

I mean, Jason, I remember watching

the pilot of Ozark,

I guess it was a series order, so I'm using

the term pilot reflexively,

the first episode that you directed, and my

ex turning to me when your name came up in the credits

and being like, is Jason Bateman

one of our great living directors?

Is he like

one of the great living directors?

Is he like

one of the best working TV directors

we have? Yes, I can answer that. So my name came up and he said

really? I think he might be.

That is true. I had to discover that

over the time that you were that too.

He is. It took a village.

Thank you. The first episode of The Outsider.

Every time I see you directing

something, I'm like, how are you so good at that too? You're very, very kind. Well, something sinks in after a while, and surround yourself with good folks, and there you get it.
Yeah, well, here's to more of that for all of you. Thank you, my friend.
And thank you for being so kind in this conversation. Oh, it was so easy.
Thank you for joining us. Yeah, so great talking to you and meeting you.
Ronan, thank you. We appreciate you so much for being here.
Thank you, pal. I hope I get to see you on the streets of New York again.
Yeah, I hope I get to see you. Yeah, I'd love to meet you in person.
Yeah, I'd love that too. All right, pal.
Bye, guys. All right, enjoy your day.
You too. Bye, thanks, Ronan.
Well, another boring prick that just is no charm and doesn't know how to talk. We got to start booking better guests.
Could have kept talking to Rondon Farrell. That guy.
Could have just kept talking to that guy. I'm real sweet on that fella.
Handsome. Smart.
Let me tell you something. Amanda's in a lot of trouble.
I know. She's in a lot of trouble.
Why? Sorry. Why? I just found myself really enjoying his company.

Okay?

Uh-oh.

Uh-oh.

No, that's a real interesting fella right there.

Yeah, I agree.

I cannot believe the guy went to college at 11.

When you said, are you kidding?

And I almost said, like, of course he's fucking kidding.

Wait, he's not kidding.

Not kidding.

11 years old at Bard, 15 at Yale.

I mean, incredible.

That's amazing.

Lord.

Can you make? Hey, guys. Anybody going to the frat party? Like 15 years old.
Yeah. Well, good for him.
Sean, I didn't know you did impressions. That was a college.
That was fantastic. Hey, guys.
Anybody going to the frat party. Hey, guys.
Hey, what's the big idea? I'm going to bust this joint up. You sound like you guys from a 30s film.
I want a hamburger sandwich. Now, Willie, you're there in Atlanta.
I see you're in... Hamburg.
Yeah. And be sure to hang out at your sales receipt.
What do you got the rest of the day out there, Willie? Well, uh... Oh, we got another record later on.
We do. I got some hockey later on after I've already been to the gym.
Really sorry about the Kings waxing your dumbass maple leaves the other day. It's Leafs, you fucking dick.
What did I say? Did I say maple leaves? Leaves. The leaves.
It's plural. He was doing plural.
Leaves. All the players are the leaves yeah exactly that is the plural okay and it was a battalion in the in the canadian army world war one so we maple leaf battalion so if you have a cons might named him the maple leafs so if you had a if you had a bunch of maple leafs exiting the team bus how would you write that l-e-a-f apostrophe S? No.
Or no, you wouldn't use the apostrophe. You just have the S.
Yeah. Would it be leaves or would it be V or F? Leafs.
The Leafs. With what letter? S.
No, with an F or a V? F. F.
Huh. I don't know if that's correct.
Says it on the jersey. I think they spelled it wrong.
Well, that's because it's plural. But if you had like three of...

And it's a proper name.

It's a proper noun.

That's why?

They created a name.

Yeah.

But if you had like three of something,

you'd call it try.

And if you had two of something,

you would call it...

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Also, if you went both ways.

Smart.

Yes.

Smart. Less.
Smart.

Less.

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