"John McEnroe"

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Details at low you guys going to? I'm going to three. Oh, maybe I'll just press that button and we can just go there.
I'm not really going to a floor. I'm just here for the ride.
You're just riding the elevator just trying to meet people? My name's Jason and this is my friend Sean.

What's your name, friend? My name's Will.

Yeah. I'm sorry.
I was not exercising.

I'm just a heavy breather. Are you

hot today? Why are you not wearing

anything but socks? You guys looking for a friend?

We're busy. We've got to

do a podcast. Welcome to...

Oh, welcome to SmartLess. That's it.

SmartLess.

SmartLess. That's it.
SmartLess. SmartLess.
SmartLess. I was just, I just dropped Denny, sweet little Denny, who's, as you know, is three off at school.
And on the way there, he starts telling me this story. He's wearing a shirt that's got an alien on it.
He's going, I saw an alien. I said, you did? Yeah, last night.
No kidding. Yes.
And I go, really? He goes, yeah, I saw an alien. It was in our home.
It was in our home. Yeah, and he was in the potty.
He was next to the potty. I said, the alien used our potty? Yeah.
He said, did he go pee or poop? He go poop? And he goes, no. he did a huge poop.
I said, really? So then he starts telling me this story and the alien ends up in the toilet and then they're kicking a soccer ball and I go, what color is the soccer ball? It's green, just the same as him and him family. And I said, okay.
So he tells this whole story. I go, so then I start, every time I keep relaying it back to him, let me get this straight.
So you see the alien and by the third time I go, so let me get this straight. The alien's in her bathroom, and he goes, the end.
He was done with the story. Okay.
And then, Jay, I start telling this story because he sees this building that one of the other boys, his buddy lives in, so we start getting into friends, and what's the name of Archie's friend and his mom, and I said, what's the name of Maple's daddy? And he goes, Sean. And I said, no, close.
Yeah, might as well be. And he goes, Jason.
I said, yeah, it's Jason. I don't believe it.
I swear to God. And we go through and then Amanda and Franny and blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I go, yeah. And then remember we were at our friend's house the other night for dinner and then Abel's other friend and then he goes, I don't like your story.
I like my story better. That's hysterical.
Right? I'm still believing that there's an alien in the bathroom. I know.
Did you see the photos from, where was that? From Mexico? Yeah. I mean.
Yeah, are those real? I mean, they obviously can't be real, but CBS and CNN and everyone's like reporting them.

It's like, I thought that was like what News of the World used to do.

Yeah.

I can't believe that Sean's not doing this episode from Mexico City.

I'm just realizing that when I rebooted right before we started recording, I lost all my questions for my guest. No way? Yeah.
Like, what? Did you find them now? It's reboot nonsense. Why do you have more reboots than anybody? I don't know.
I guess I'm technologically not gifted. I don't know what's going on.
But you know what? I don't need them. I don't because where i where i'm deficient in technology i am gifted in um asking questions verbosity okay um all right here we come here we go do you want me to tell you another story i do still have my intro sean sorry sorry sean did you are we on a i was say, do you want me to tell you something while you look for them or no? Well, we can wait until we're done with your break, I guess.
Sean just found the drive-through for Cinnabon right around the corner from his house. Are we interrupting breakfast or anything? No? Is it really Cinnabon? No, it's a peanut buttered sandwich, peanut buttered jelly sandwich.
By the way, listener, we were on a Zoom yesterday um with about 20 people and um about cheese will will ask sean hey sean it's about five o'clock are we close to dinner he's like yeah let's go in and see what's what's cooking so he goes into the kitchen and there on the on the stove is i forget what you were talking about that it was it was some sort of a fish thing, but there's like a bacon is being fried to contribute to the sauce.

Right. There's some sort of a cheese dish.
You guys should see Jason's face right now. I said, do you have family over or friends or something? Or is it just Thursday? Yeah, it was a lot of food.
So you have like a full meal. Yeah, yeah.
That's the only meal. Multicourse meal every night.
Yeah. Almost every night, yeah.
But that's because I don't usually eat like fish or something healthy. I'll eat like something healthy-ish during the day so that I can have like spaghetti and meatballs or something at night.
Do you put bacon in that too? No. Were you so worried about the health content of the fish that you had to throw the bacon at it? Yes, exactly.
By the way, Jay, when was the last time we got an invite for a dinner? I mean, he has a nice meal every night. Every night.
I just kind of figure like y'all want to go in your own corners. You don't need to folksy that up to excuse your rudeness, okay? Folksy.
I'm so excited that we have one of the world's great talkers today this is i'm getting i'm introing my guest okay oh this man is electric with his words his guitar and his charisma today's guest is one of the most famous and successful athletes alive today when he played he was as dominant as he was compelling he was fiercely competitive and never boring he has an unbelievable amount of trophies and records in his sport, but what he's done for the Caucasian Afro and the on-court microphones will never be matched. Please welcome the winner of 17 Grand Slams, a great guitarist, a good golfer, and a new friend of mine, the one and only John McEnroe.
Oh, my gosh. Mr.
McEnroe. Good morning, John.
Wow. Very nice, Jason.
Thank you. That's a pretty good intro, right? I shortened it a little for you because I knew Will was going to go, it's McEnroe.
And he did. And he did.
He beat me. It's a race with him.
He's bright. Once you said, once I knew about the Curlier, the guitar, when you said Grand Slams and guitar, I was like, yeah, it's got to be me.
I didn't know you played guitar. Hi, John.
Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you.
Yeah. I loved you, by the way, and brought...
I hadn't been to a play for years. Your performance was amazing.
You came to the show? I did. I tried to come back to say hello.
They wouldn't let me in. No.
Yeah. That's very kind of you.
Thank you, pal. Thank you for coming, and thank you for saying that.
I didn't realize that they're that great a piano player, man. That was something that stunning can you believe that he has talent i knew he had talent but that was off the charts that's very sweet thank you classically trained pianist never never never knew it but this is about mr mackenroll thank you john for coming about mr mackenroll now now john do you play uh piano as well as guitar no i do not although jimmy webb Jimmy Webb, who is a famed songwriter and pianist, tried to teach me guitar a couple of times.
We traded tennis lessons for piano lessons. Yeah.
And it's just wasn't for you. It's easier on the fingertips, isn't it? I love the piano, but I prefer the guitar.
I try to get all my kids to play piano. They did, but they didn't stick with it.
I said, stick with it. It'll be good for you.
Maybe someday you'll be on Broadway kicking ass. Winning tawnies.
But no, yeah, exactly. Maybe someday you'll be wearing two compression sleeves and icing your fingers every night.
Exactly. John, don't the guitar strings hurt your fingertips? Yeah.
That was my my problem with it and also like could you ever get carpal tunnel or any kind of like tendonitis I've been lucky actually I probably don't play enough to get carpal tunnel but I've had you know you gotta build up you know the calluses like you do with my tennis hand you gotta do the same thing when you grip a racket. So that takes a while.
But I got over that. And, you know, at least this is one of the few things I'm improving at, a guitar playing.
Did you ever get tennis elbow? I was about to ask the same. You know, generally speaking, I had issues at times with the elbow, but never real bad, thankfully.
How about golf elbow? Have you been? I have not had golf elbow. I just have, why am I playing this dumbass game sometimes? Elbow.
No, John, that's not true. You're a good golfer.
We've played a couple times. And not unlike what you said about guitar, I feel like you're getting better at golf.
I feel like you're more consistent. I've seen you miss some short putts.

Sure.

I currently have a video.

Wait, do you guys always play together?

We have played a couple times.

I have a video currently on my phone

of John missing a putt on the ninth hole

over at our place there,

and he fell to the ground.

And took off all his clothes in protest.

That happens every time I play.

I don't like how much time you're spending in New York, though.

It's not great for our golf outings.

Well, sometimes, Jason, I do have to work.

Yeah, man.

The U.S. Open was the big one for us.

And hometown, it's great.

But we missed you well at Augusta, though.

I know, I know.

I wish I could have, as you knew, I had a dear friend of mine passed away,

so I couldn't make it.

But we're going to do it again, same crew.

and we're going to do it up and get down there. I'm so excited.
Now, also what's keeping you in New York is your great tennis academy. That started when? I would say about 12 years ago, the last 10 of which we've also started a charity arm, which is called the Johnny Mac Tennis Project, which is, you know, we're constantly trying to raise money so we can get more kids to play this great sport.
It's too unaffordable. It's not accessible enough.
It's too expensive, especially in New York. So it's an ongoing battle, but we're making progress.
If somebody wanted to contribute to that, how would they go about doing something like that? It's a 501c3. Go on the web and the internet and go to Johnny Mac Tennis Project, and anything you can give would be incredible.
But we just had a pro-am, and we do a comedy night every year, which is great. Jason should give 10 grand.
Jason, give 10 grand right now. I'll do 10 grand right now.
Sean, Will, you going to match me? Let's go. That's 30 right there, Sean.
Come on, you're breaking up. But your tennis academy is charitable in concept.
I mean, you're already doing charity work there, basically philanthropic work where you are identifying uh kids uh that wouldn't otherwise maybe be uh drawn to tennis or have access to tennis and you're giving them that right through scholarships and whatnot absolutely and we have a lot of programs we go to public schools and we bring them in but this is also a for-profit place. You know, I work for someone.
This is city-owned land. And the people put $20 million into it.
We're putting an additional 15 to add another 10 courts. So this is an incredible place.
But at the same time, there's 90%, I'd say, the people or people that went to schools like I went to high school, the Ivy League high schools that pay the bills. You know, they come and play once or twice a week so that we have a chance to do enough and raise enough that we can get the 1%.
You know, unfortunately, what, 99% can't afford it. Yeah, right, right.
Or 90%. What was that like, John, for you, speaking of high school? Because I know now, I mean, it kind of, and again, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that kids who played tennis when they were growing up and they were young, the idea of going to like an all-tennis academy started with Nick Bollateri, is that right? Sort of that dedicated thing where the kid you started to hear about.
But for guys like you who were like right before that, right before that generation, were you playing tennis every day on Long Island or Queens? What was that like for you? I grew up in Queens. The best thing that ever happened to me was not going to a Boletarist type camp.
I would have quit the game when I was 16 or 17. I loved to play other sports.
All studies show, both physically and mentally, it's healthier for kids to play other sports. This idea that you got to go all in in soccer, basketball is a bunch of...
Can you say bullshit on this? You can say that one. Total BS.
You can say fucking bullshit. Beautiful.
I'll get to that shortly when you ask me a lousy question. I got one for you.
But the truth is, is that what I base my beliefs on or what this academy are what this academy is all about. That, you know, you should play other sports and you should come to this a little later.
Tennis players are peaking later than they ever did. I think college is an experience that not only you get to play as a team, potentially, if you're in a sport, but you get to grow up a little bit and also have some fun before you work your way into a a profession and you'll be more prepared to handle it.
So I completely disagree with what they do most often. Right.
Because John, the idea that like, not just as an athlete, but also as a person, as a human being, if you come in and you turn pro when you're 17 or something, and if maybe you have success, I mean, again, like you said, you're not peaking yet, but you have success, all that kind of pressure, everything that goes along with that, the traveling, being away from home, being away from family, your support group, it seems to me, especially for tennis, it'd be pretty tough to deal with all that if you were young. For every person you hear that succeeds, there's a million that don't.
You know, not everyone's Carlos Alcaraz. He's one in a billion.
He's just a freak. He's an incredible player.
Yeah, yeah. But most kids have no business doing that.
And college now has become more competitive. And now they can offer money.
Oh, right. Which is, you know, was unheard of.
You could actually, you know, go after a guy and offer him something. For the NIL stuff.
The NIL stuff. I mean, most of it, obviously, is going to football and basketball, but at least allows kids that otherwise, you know, would have nothing in college to think, maybe I should wait a couple years.
Yeah. John, why do you, what do you, do you attribute, like, you talk about Alcaraz, like, these guys are hitting the ball, and who is it that Medvedev played him, right? They hit the ball so hard.
I have to, I mean, it's not like... Not like us.
No, but I mean, like... Way to insult John.
No, I'm just saying like... We were dinosaurs.
Well, but I mean, you guys were every bit as big and as strong. Is it just the racket? I mean, you guys were playing, I can't believe what you were able to do with the size of the racket that you guys were playing with.
Why, is it bigger now? Oh, yeah, it's bigger now, it's lighter now. I didn't know that.
Look at that thing. Yeah.
That's what I played with until I was 23, which is, you know, about, you add another 40%, that's the difference in power and the size of it. So the sweet spot's a lot bigger so that's allowed kids at my academy I'm at my academy right now that hit 12, 14 year olds hit the ball harder than me.
John just showed us his wooden racket. Did you win Wimbledon with that racket? That kind of racket? I did.
One of the only records I still have and I think I will always have it is I'm the last male player to win a major with a wooden racket. Wow.
That's so rad. What if somebody made a storm, came back onto the scene with one of those rackets? How long do you think they'd last? You can't compete with one of those, right? If you played one event, Carlos Alcaraz could play with anything.
He is an amazing player. What about Federer? Federer.
Federer, it seemed to me, had such... And I remember, over the years, watched a lot of matches of his that you've called many, many.
He has... You really liked the way he played, his style, and, he was so graceful.
And he's, I don't know, how would you describe it? He's the most beautiful player I've ever seen. You know, I idolized Rod Laver.
He was an awesome, he's like the Brychnikov of tennis. That's not how I would describe him.
Where, you know, you look at Rafael Nadal, that's not your typical or prototypical tennis player. His body, you know, he looked, you know, a lot bigger up top.
When we grew up, they were like, don't lift. Right.
You know, you don't want to get too big up here. Jason got that same memo.
Yeah, yeah. I was like, don't worry, you know.
Who do you think you'd match up best with today? Oh, yeah. I mean, like another lefty? No.
You mean who would I play like or who would I match up? Yeah, if apples were to apples today as far as age goes and equipment goes, who do you think you'd have the most entertaining match with? Well, the dream would be to play Roger Federer at Wimbledon. The nightmare would be to play Rafael Nadal at Roland Garros on clay, even though I grew up on clay, and that was my best surface, so I turned pro.
Wow. But what he did was insane.
Why don't people still serve in volley like you used to? I used to find that so fun. I feel like Becker was the last one to do it, right? That's correct.
They changed the court speeds. They slowed it down at Wimbledon.
They did the same at the Indian Wells or the U.S. Open.
Actually, U.S. Open is fairly quick, so you're seeing it come back a little bit with Alkares, and people always imitate the top guys.
But, you know, the explosion necessary to come in point after point, I don't think people realize that takes a physical toll. Right.
So it's easier to serve big. These guys are bigger.
Medvedev's 6'6". The average player's gone from, you know, when I was— He's 6'6"? He's 6'6".
So the average player has gone from 5'10", 5'9", to 10, to 6'2", 6'3", even. You know, Djokovic is 6'2".

Murray, 6'3".

It used to be 6'1".

That would be Sampras, Federer, and Nadal.

Yeah.

But, you know, players are getting more athletic, taller.

So if you combine it with these rackets,

the ball's coming back faster,

unless you stand 20 feet behind the baseline like Medvedev.

Yeah, that was amazing.

And so it's tougher to get close to the net. Right.
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Hey guys, everybody should have a support system, right? Who's your support system? My support system, as you well know, talk about all the time, is Scotty. And of course, my two besties, Will and Jason.
Whenever I have a problem, an issue, I talk to them about it. And if they're not available, I will talk to a therapist.
And I've been going to therapy for a long time, and it's always great. So think about your favorite leaders, mentors, and idols.
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That's betterhelp.com slash smartless. All right, back to the show.
You know what's funny? You're talking about these guys who are coming on the scenes, Alcatraz, as I call them, because I just put a twist on it. You know what I mean, Jake? You're amazing, man.
Sean's not with me. You talk deeply about Sean's day down.
I'm with you. Sean's day down.
You talk about these new guys who come on. So Alcaraz has come on the last two years, and he's just been an absolute, he's exploded, like kind of seemingly out of nowhere.
I mean, for us, for, you know, I'm not a huge, I don't follow the minutiae of tennis, but. Well, he's number one in the world.
No, he is now. I'm just saying before, I didn't watch.
I didn't know about... I didn't know that he was the guy who was in the pipeline who was coming.
I just got... All of a sudden, he was there, and he was incredible.
But, John, you did the same thing. What I'm getting to is, I remember distinctly, I remember being up in Northern Canada watching you and Bjorn Borg play in those unbelievable...
When I was a kid, those unbelievable matches from Wimbledon.

And everybody's like, who's this guy?

And you know all this stuff.

He was like, he's brash.

He's from New York.

He doesn't give a shit.

He won Wimbledon and then he fucking went

and got pizza with his pals or something.

I still remember that story.

I partied with the pretenders.

You partied with it, right?

Really?

Among other people.

But the afro and the headband, though, was just so hostile.

Wait, I want to hear about partying with the pretender. Well, listen, who would you rather party with? A bunch of old farts? You know, the dinner that we weren't sure I had to go to? Or, you know, some rock stars? So I don't think that was a tough one.
You know, I went to Wimbledon when I was 18.

I was sent to play the juniors.

And I broke through and qualified and made it to the semis in the main draw.

And that completely changed my life.

I didn't realize, you know, what Wimbledon meant except when I saw the guy you mentioned, my great rival Bjorn Borg.

Yeah.

And I remember seeing him play a few matches when I was like 15 before I played there. And the like hundreds of girls ran on the court and it was like, oh my God, this is like tennis's version of Beatlemania.
I go, I want to be a tennis player. Somehow I got to get some of that.
And so, and then I, I want to just mention this because to practice what I preach, which is I actually went to college after that. I played professionally all through the summer.
I was 21 in the world when I entered Stanford. Wow.
So. Wow, that's crazy.
It's unheard of if anyone's even above 500. So I felt like I wasn't ready emotionally and wanted to experience being part of a team and going to Stanford.
And I think that was good for me in my career as it ended up. And then you fast forward a couple of years.
Those are the matches where I played Borg two years in a row, 80, 81. Incredible.
And so that was like the greatest, you know, a great time for tennis. I was lucky.
I came into what turned out to be a really important time where tennis was really growing. I mean, if you had told me that golf would outrate tennis the way it does now is on the networks, I would laugh at you in the 80s.
And so we haven't done nearly enough as a sport. We have the same ratings as basketball.
I mean, it's absurd how far we've gone the wrong way. Pickleball, if I hear a pickleball one more goddamn time, I'll throw up.
That was my question. I'm going to fucking listen.
I'm with you on the pickleball thing. Yeah, that's your cue, Sean.
Go for it, buddy. I was just going to say pickleball thoughts.
But you play a different kind of pickleball. Oh, boy.
No, I played a kind when I played tennis. You know, me and Andre Agassi played along with, know michael ching was on my team and andy roddick so it was like tennis players playing so it wasn't as painful as having to put up with some old a college player who didn't make it in tennis and now is one of the best pickleball players players in the world and it's a wiffle ball you ever played wiffle ball outside and when you're a kid growing up i Queens.
It's not the same as baseball. No, it's not.
It's trash. I think it's total trash.
I used to play paddle tennis in the beaches in Venice for years. That's a better game.
At least you play with the tennis ball that's had the air taken out of it. But the fucking pickleball, I'm sick of it.
I like pickleball. I like it.
Oh, of course you do. Everybody, it's like when people start getting into racquetball.
Fat guys can stand in the middle and they don't even have to fucking walk. You will watch it with racquetball.
Pickleball is the fucking same. You don't have to do shit.
Racquetball in the 80s out in the San Fernando Valley. Fucking whiffable.
Everyone calm down. I can't wait until all these fucking rich assholes have to pave over their stupid...
What was that over there? We had a fucking... Pickleball court.
I'll tell you who the happiest people around are, the doctors. Because a lot of people have played.
It's better to do something than nothing. So I'll go with that.
I did legs yesterday. What's that? I worked on my legs yesterday.
That means he squatted down to the stove, opened it up, pulled the pie out. No, he had to get a good meal.

No, he had to put his feet around a fucking huge, he had a 10-pound bag of Chex Mix,

and he had to use his feet to hold the ground as he opened it.

John, talk about what, I mean, obviously winning, this is for the folks out there that don't play tennis,

but something that you could talk to them about that's That's a, that's applicable that the, the gain you'd get from winning versus losing, uh, cause everybody has experience with winning and losing how you've probably had to develop a muscle early on that could turn a negative into a positive and, and try to try to gain from it. Um, was, was losing, you know, a tangible gain for you at times that you can speak about?

Well, obviously, you know, as a father of six and having grown up being told that, you know, losing builds character and you learn more from losing than you do with winning, that there was something that was ingrained in me at a young age. And I do believe that it's true that you can sort of take a step back and that it does help you in a lot of ways, not just on a tennis court.
So that's what I try to tell the kids that are at my academy, try to nurture them. It's hard though, because you feel like the last place you want to be is on a tennis court when you're getting your ass kicked by someone.
Yeah, nowhere to hide. Especially if you ever got to the stage where you're playing at the U.S.
Open at Arthur Ashe Stadium, which would be like a dream come true for any professional tennis player. And then you get toasted by someone.
So my problem was is that at a certain point in my career, I think late 20s, I started getting more fearful of losing and not sort of embracing the idea that you need to learn from it as opposed to facing up to it, and that hurt me. And I felt like I was a lesser player from that point forward.
I had more of a fear of failure. It sort of got in the way a little bit too much.
You always have to battle that as well did you did you get

did you end up getting on top of that or is that still something that like do you take that onto the golf course you take that into um you know uh experimenting with music like have you have you gotten on top of it and and and and factor in losing as an acceptable result i i've you know i I go by the belief now that it's better to try and fail than not try at all.

Yeah.

Early on when I was doing commentary, I stopped playing, boy, it was like 30 years ago, the main tour. I played a champion seniors tour for 25 more years.
But at that time, I started to get some positive feedback about my commentary. And at a certain stage, people would come up to me, you're a better commentator than you are.
We're a player. And I'm like, bullshit, okay? That's fucking bullshit.
It would really make me angry for quite a long time, for years. And then I thought to myself, I took a step back once, and I said, wait a minute.
They think I'm a better commentator than I was a player. They never saw you play.
Well, that would be one possibility. Or else, hey, maybe I am a pretty damn good commentator, and I should take that as a compliment.
You should. And I have, but it took a long time, I guess would be the long answer to your question, was that it took a lot of experiences that you referred to.
You know, the love of music as a hobby, getting a second chance with a second marriage that, you know, worked out far better than the first. Trying to be the proper role model as best as possible for my kids as often as possible.
I got six kids between my two marriages appreciating life that I've been pretty damn lucky. That's what I try to give back at my academy.
And even when I do with commentary work and around the players that, you know, I'll do next week when I go to Laver Cup, which is our version of the Ryder Cup, and try to just be around the guys.

And if I can help them that little bit, 5%, 10%,

that can make the difference, hopefully.

So I've got a much better attitude than I did,

although I think that some of the things that I used

to hide my fear of failure, which was showing anger

instead of, like, sitting there and start crying,

you know, that I don't think we were brought up to be, let's cry on the tennis court. So a lot of that time that was manifested and sort of turning into anger.
God forbid, I thought I had a decent sense of humor and I would think of something funny like that was going on the court, but I felt like when I grew up, it was like, you got to keep intense. you can't you you'll lose your edge if you do anything now you see guys that are out there like fatter i was like how the hell does this guy look like he's so happy to be out there yeah or you know alcaraz the guy's smiling just i'm gonna just you wait just give it a couple years you'll be miserable like the rest of us but i i watched you i i think we talked about this once i feel John, I wish that you would commentate on other sports because I know you're a big sports fan and I'm like, I wish you would go on and commentate on football and basketball and hockey.
I know, you know, that would be, you should, have you ever thought about that? Didn't you say once you were going to, or you did do it for basketball? It's like a simulcast like like uh peyton and eli do i did pay i did i did peyton and eli just this past monday yeah yeah they don't count peyton and eli don't count they're they're pretty damn good i love it i love those guys no no but i actually uh last year when i saw it i was like oh my god this is absolutely perfect for me and my brother yeah do on the tennis. Unleash us.
Let us do it. Oh, it's already been done.
What? Okay, so what? Yeah. Now we're going to do it.
Proof of concept. And as far as answering your question, yes, I was a few years back, I was going to do a Knicks game.
Unfortunately, my dad passed away, like literally right around that time. So it wasn't able to happen.
There was a time, I don't know if you remember this, it was probably 15 years ago, Dennis Miller ended up getting the job. But they said Monday Night Football, they want someone who's not a football player.
Oh, right. And they want to maybe bring in three or four guys for three or four games each.
And I go, oh my God, that's absolutely perfect. This would be unbelievable because I love sports, like you said.
And I don't, I'm no football expert, but I know enough about it to sort of at least give my two cents like a fan. And then I called my agent and he was like, ah, they, you know, they went with Dennis Miller.
I go, what did they say when you mentioned my name? I didn't mention it. I didn't think you'd get it.
I'm like, what? You got a deal on him, huh? So he was done. So even though he helped me initially with the TV deals, I'm like, what are you doing? But I'm not saying I would have gotten it anyway.
But now, of course, you feel like in a certain way, I don't want to be like walk in and be like, yeah, here I am. I can do, you know, football.
And, you know, some football player who, you know, wants a job and needs it, you know, I feel a little weird about that. So maybe the talk show format, what I was going to do radio.
I loved your talk show, by the way. You should do that again.
Thank you for both. You both came on it.
You were awesome. It was 19 years ago.
Unbelievable. Oh, my God.
Unreal that it was that long ago. That was right when CNBC got started, right? Wasn't CNBC? Yeah, they wanted to do, as a matter of fact, I followed Dennis Miller, and they were trying to get, you know, usually people turn off CNBC at 4 o'clock, right? Tom Snyder and Charles Grozen, too.

Tom the stops, too.

Yeah.

Sean, you should know, when John did his program,

our mutual, all four of us know Meredith.

Walker?

Yeah.

Meredith Walker, yeah.

Who worked for John, yeah.

I didn't know that.

I love Meredith.

And that's how we ended up doing it.

And I still got, I think, I still got the racket.

You gave everybody who was a guest a signed racket. Dunlop racket, I got it.
Just you guys. Just us.
Oh, shit, just us. Not me.
I'll check the mail again. I'm fascinated by, John, you know, these guys know.
I'm fascinated by medicine and medical things. And whenever an athlete comes out, I always ask what's the worst injury because I'm, you know, the repetitiveness of like Jason was talking about earlier about just the repetitiveness nature of especially tennis, of the constant back and forth.
What was your worst injury and what did you do to take care of it? Because it is like theater. I know these guys joke, but it is every single day doing the same movements over and over again takes a toll on your body.
So how did you play for so many years? What was your regimen like if you got hurt? Well, first of all, I'm going to knock on wood because I'm pretty lucky. I've never had a surgery.
Wow. Amazing.
So that already is lucky when you hear these horror stories of the football players. I remember they asked Joe Montana recently, who's the greatest quarterback ever? He said, Dan Marino.
And they go, you don't mean like Tom Brady or Patrick Mahomes? And how would it be different for you? And he was like, because they protect the quarterback more. 27 surgeries later, he's had 27.
John Elway's had 27 to 30 surgeries. So these poor souls take way more of a beating.
The worst injury I ever had, I tore my hamstring. And this was in the senior's tour, not the main tour.
And you have chronic shoulder problems. And I've torn my meniscus twice the last five years without, I didn't do surgery and I recovered.
But I was fortunate. I was taught in a way that it didn't put a lot of strain on my body.
You look at Nadal, the way he swings at everything. You know, it's like the home run swing.
So I think, you know, that you're more likely to get hurt. He did get injured, right, for a period there? Wasn't he quite? He's been injured a handful of times, but, you know, he's got a great team around him that keeps him going.
I don't know how he still does it at his age, but he's had numerous injuries. Boris Becker's had 12 surgeries.
A lot of guys have a lot of surgeries, and it's cost them. Hips is the worst part.
I think the hip is the thing I've struggled with the most, and it's all connected, obviously. So, you know, I had a, you know, mainly when I was younger and most successful was pretty much tennis.
You know, you do running, sprinting, that type of stuff. Not a lot of weight work.
I played doubles, which no one does anymore. And as I started doing weights, I actually didn't help me in off-court training.
I just enjoyed to like work out, to generally try to keep, you know, reasonably fit. So that's, you know, I've been pretty fortunate all in all compared to most people.
You've got to be the only, like, Uber champion of any sport that has never had a surgery. That's got a new record by itself.
That's unbelievable to me. You and Cal Ripken.
No, I bet you Cal Ripken's been cut. I've had, like, 17 myself.
The only person ever that reached number one in the world who has the same size arm, left arm, as right arm. You know, I used to try to copy Rod Laver because his arm was like Popeye.
And I was like, I would squeeze balls like hours and hours a day when I was a kid and, you know, do any type of, anything I could do to, well, I'm not even going where you're going. Will's got jokes.
No, I'm just saying it that Sean can finally relate. Yeah.
I'm just saying. Squeeze balls and I just perk up.
But most athletes, anyone, especially if you're doing something with one arm, you know, 95% of the time or more, I had a one-handed backhand. I could not figure out why nothing changed.
So it's bizarre. Yeah, that's wild.
But the body was pretty resilient all in all. I never...
I played tennis off and on and I don't really play that much anymore, but I used to and I used to love playing for various stages. And I always prided myself because you would talk about...
I always prided myself on having a one-handed backhand because I grew up in an era when everybody wanted to have... Like in the 80s, everybody was trying to trying to get that you know two-handed backhand and prince rackets and all that kind of shit and i was like no i want to play a more graceful game and um anyway i just want to say i think you'd really improve my backhand john go ahead the bad news is that if i had a young kid now uh and said should you do one or two i course.
It's more, you know. Well, you can, and the way they hit off the back foot more, and obviously you can take balls up higher, especially when you're younger.
But even as you're older, because there's so much spin that it makes more sense to use the two hands. It's actually better for you physically because you're using both sides of the body more.
It just doesn't look as cool.

And the other thing is, one hand backhand looks so graceful.

But I will say, it's funny, if all the sort of, you know, years of playing and taking

tennis lessons when I was a kid and whatever, then when you watch these guys, the way they

play now, I'm like, what game are they playing?

Because the way they hit their body, where they're at with relation to the ball, their grip now, all that stuff is so different. Absolutely.
I mean, I played with one grip. Now these guys, you know, have huge changes on their back and their forehand grip.
They seem to do it effortlessly. And it's like learning a language.
You know, if you learn a language, it's a lot easier when you're young. They're moving the racket as they play.

And what did I see during the U.S. Open?

One of the players actually took his racket,

walked it up to his coach, handed it to him,

and asked him to restring it while he continued playing with a different racket.

Well, they bring six or eight rackets on the court,

and they're always complaining like the coach's fucked up.

It's their fault.

You've got to blame someone other than yourself, so you give it to them.

You told me it should be 52.

I'll get that fucking thing.

I think... planning like the coach fucked up you know it's their fault you know you got to blame someone other than yourself so you give it to him you told me it should be 52 i'll get that fucking thing and put it at 48 but did you ever hand a racket to a coach and ask him to restring it during one of your matches no well first of all i didn't travel with the coach back when i played but second of all um i brought like six rackets in a bag but i'd have like four different tensions to sort of, you know, be, have available in case it was, you know, humid, in case the ball was flying, heavy, whatever.
These seem to bring all these same tension, which I don't quite understand. And the stringers are like millionaires now.
We didn't restring rackets every five seconds. These guys string rackets.
I remember Sampras, he'd bring out six rackets to a practice session.

He'd use one of them for like an hour,

and then he'd go, all right, Mac, I'm done.

And I'd go, okay.

And then he'd give the string and restring all six.

I'd go, why are you restringing all six?

You didn't even use five of them.

Why do you think most sports are more tolerant

of players having outbursts than tennis is? I feel like you kind of got the short string on that to go back to strings. You know, obviously things are a bit, it's more accepted now.
But like at the time, people were looking at you like, oh my God, what is he doing complaining about that call why it's so it's so not okay now other sports it's fine why is that well first of all if you put a microphone on the the middle of the field in a football game something tells me they're not saying hello how are you and then and and basketball you know they control it in baseball we used to love when the manager would go up to the umpire,

kick dirt in his, you know, pants.

That was incredible.

Then I'd go out there and I'd go, you missed a call.

And I'm like, you know, Tiller the Hunt all of a sudden, you know.

And we will be right back.

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I'm going to go to the show. How do you like that new thing now? Am I wrong? Or are there are no more umpires um calling lines uh it's now computer yet they put in a speaker of somebody like a audio somebody saying out or whatever right right it's new it's automated now isn't it i don't mean to be a cynic but i'd like to know how accurate it was but you know having said that um it is i actually, if you knew that you would have a chance to sort of double-check a call, you know, I went to Wimbledon the first year I played there, and I'm playing a match, and I look over, and the guy's sleeping, you know, one of the linesmen, and I'm like, he's probably seen the ball better now that he's asleep, because they can't see a damn thing.
Didn't you, i always dreamed about being one of those guys did you yeah i wanted as a kid i watched you i'd watch tennis and i'd watch you and i'd be like i want to be the kid who runs across and catch oh the ball boy that's yeah that's a cool it's actually a tough gig to get apparently i ball boy i ball boy for a handful of years at the u.s open so you so you get close to it. It's awesome.
At Forest Hills?

At Forest Hills.

At Forest Hills.

The old Forest Hills.

And by the way, to answer your question,

the electronic equipment, I would have been,

you see, my hair might have been closer to your color, Jason, or Will,

and I would have won more,

but maybe I wouldn't have been on your amazing podcast.

That's true.

No, you still would be.

So I got to look at the bright side that, you know. Your game was better than your outburst.
I would have been more boring. No, your game was better than your outburst.
Did you ever look back on some of those old freakouts that you had outbursts over a call and it turned out you were right? Were you right like 100% of the time? That's what I tell myself. Something tells me it might not have been quite a hundred percent but there was that call you know the ball was in you know chalk flew up i did that one and 30 years later we literally did it last year uh i played the uh it was two years ago because it was 81 that it happened the guy that i was playing against came on espn and said, John was right.
The ball did hit the line. Chalk did fly up.
And I just was like, yes. It took 30 years before, but the vindication finally, not that I'm worse than Jack the Ripper.
So in Wimbledon, you can challenge a call because there's still people calling the lines, but the US Open, it's automated,? That's correct. It's going to be all automated within a few years.
I think baseball's doing the same thing. Are they? Well, maybe they should, because if you play baseball, just think about this, and, you know, the umpire calls a ball that's clearly outside the plate.
Why is that a strike? I don't give a damn who you are. It's the plate.
Yeah, exactly. But meanwhile, they're like, well, that's the umpire.
He's, you know, he's giving the pitcher a little extra, you know, a couple extra inches. Why would be my question.
Yeah, it should be without opinion or nuance. Let me say this, and this might be controversial.
I've felt, and I'm serious, I've felt like with all the instant replay and shit, especially when you have VAR and soccer, which, you know, every goal they look at, I feel like it's taken a little bit of, it's just, it's not opinion, it's just nuance, and the human error should be part of kind of everything. I think so, too.
I liked it. It made a story when they get the wrong call.
That's drama. Until you're on the wrong side of it.
Right? If you're on the wrong side of it, then it's like, why is that a part of the game? Why shouldn't that stuff be taken out and what is left is just pure execution by the athletes? I think that what you're saying about the human element, there's some truth to that. But as an ex-athlete, if you know that the call could be corrected properly.
I get that. And that could be the difference between winning a Wimbledon and losing?

I get that. I mean, that would be hard to argue if you're an athlete at any point

to say that you should have that.

I totally get that.

And obviously, I'm not an athlete.

And so I can see, yeah, the injustice of it.

So, Jason, in baseball, they would just get rid of the umpire then?

No, the umpire would still be there to make a call as it plays on the plate.

I'm not going about this. And to sweep the plate.
Yeah, yeah, you need to have a little brush. Yeah, that's very important.
Yeah, very important. John, let me ask you something about, and we've asked other folks that are incredible champions that are no longer playing their sport, where they scratch that old itch of competition and challenging yourself and seeing what you got week in and week out.
Was that something that was an easy adjustment for you? Is it a current adjustment for you? Or where do you sit with all that? Yeah, actually, it's a constant thing, you know, and I've tried to sort of taper off slowly. What happens if no one wanted me to play tennis anymore? You know, I've been asked this a lot.
Do you love tennis? And my answer to it is, I don't know if I love it because I've never played it where I played it for nothing. I'm still asked, like, believe it or not, you know, and I hope that it never gets to that point, by the way, that I have to play for nothing.
But if I do, you just have a better idea whether, how much you still want to be part of it. But I've learned over time that there's, you're always going to be, I'll speak for myself, very competitive.
But I'm not as competitive as I was when I was playing. It's not the end-all, be-all.
As much as I like to beat you that second 18 at Augusta when you came on and shot an 80 or 81 or whatever it was, and I was flailing and hitting balls in the water, I'm like, try to get a little perspective here, John. Life's pretty good.
You know, Will couldn't make it because his buddy passed away, you know, and saying, all things considered, how lucky are we, you know, that type of thing. So, and, you know, again, I know you guys have kids.
I got six. If I'm sitting there telling my kids, you know, I should have won the French.
I should have done this. Why didn't I do that? You know, and then I still want to beat their ass on the basketball or tennis court.
I mean, I think that would be sort of like the wrong message to be sending to my kids or the kids at my academy. Are your kids in sports? It depends how loosely you define sports.
They did play high school basketball and high school tennis, and one of my boys played college for a year. Nice.
But you need that, like, fire in the belly if you really wanted to do it, you know, in a serious way. And I don't know.
I think I love my kids, and, you know, thankfully, knock on wood, they're doing well, all of them right now. But they had a little bit, and this is my fault, what you call affluenza.
Yeah, sure. You know, maybe, you know, that hunger that maybe you need to succeed at, you know, a professional level.
Sean's got that hunger, that fire in the belly. But it's for a footlong sub.
But, you know, they, but John, your kids, like everyone else on the planet, always is probably looking for something that they fit with and can excel in or at least put themselves in a situation to see what they've got. and it sounds like while it was pretty clear what you had with tennis um you know the father clock or father time doesn't stop sorry um and you know you everybody ages out everything it sounds like you have found the other things uh that that that you can see what have i got you become like the best announcer ever in tennis and will probably be equally good in any other sport your philanthropy, your parenting, your music, stuff like that.

It sounds like you are, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you are sated, right? I mean, you're not hungry for arenas to see what you've got. No, no, I feel like I'm in, you know, I've worked at this for 40 years, you know, literally, you know.
And I feel like I found that sweet spot and been able to appreciate more the things that I enjoy doing and want to do them as often as possible. And to enjoy, you know, one of the reasons why I love commentary work still is I only were doing the majors.
You know, I didn't want to go on tour and do it all the time. So I get super, you know, super pumped up for the eight weeks of the majors, do some stuff here and there, maybe 10 weeks.
And I was still playing because, you know, there's never anything that will duplicate being on the center court at Wimbledon, but, you know, still going out and competing. I played the seniors tour.
They have it in golf, obviously. It's harder in other sports, but I did that for 25 years.
I made it close to 60. So I'm sitting there going, man, you're pretty, you know, you got to look at the bright side on this one.
So whatever comes your way, if someone at some point, it's like, who's that guy? You know, I didn't think I'd get the gig as a narrator of a show, Never Have I Ever, where I'm like the psychologist for, you know Indian American girl trying to figure out a way in her school. I didn't see that one coming.
And part of the reason I'm going to throw this in, I was asked to be the commencement speaker at Stanford this year, which turned out I was the first athlete in 120 years that did it. And I was a Stanford dropout.
So that was, you know,

and the Stanford class presidents

talked to me.

They were like,

one of the big reasons

why we picked you

because you were a narrator

on Never Have I Ever.

And I'm like, what?

You gotta be kidding me.

So, you know,

you never know.

So who would have thought?

So thank you, Mindy Kaling.

Yeah, no, no, no.

But that's, look, I understand that. We never thought that we'd be doing this thing, this podcast, before three years ago.
And it was just like on a lark. And now this is like a big part of our lives.
And it's fucking crazy. It's crazy.
John, two things I want to know. First of all, right off the top of my head, where you stand currently on it.
I don't think you're still endorsed, but I mean, you had the greatest sergio tacchini track suits warm-ups of all time and where you stand on the sergio tacchini's did you have any of those great beautiful zip-ups left i mean they're incredible yeah sergio tacchini back in the day fila alessia were the best you know the quality made in in italy i got some nice alessia by the way the longest serving. I'm still, believe it or not, Phil Knight still has me under contract with Nike.
I've been signed with them since May of 1978. So I'm 45 years.
Wow. When is the next McEnroe tennis shoe coming out? It came out.
I just did a little spot. It's on the internet.
Check it out. Me and Travis Scott.
Because he loves that. My old sneaker was called the Mack Attack.
So it's being reintroduced. Go ahead, Will.
John, you used to have, your first one was the McEnroe All Court, right? It was like the Wimbledon, you know, it was the original, sort of like this version of Stan Smith, what he did with Adidas. And then I went to sort of like the three quarters, which was actually like a racquetball, which is now everyone pretty much uses.
And then the Mack Attack. So it was nice that they reintroduced that.
And Travis Scott apparently takes a sneaker like that and does, you know, puts a little of his own touch on it or does something a little differently. And unbelievably, you know, more people are asking me about that than almost anything else.
So it's crazy. They want to do another one with me and Travis Scott.
I'm like, does he know who I am? I think he knows who I am, right? You should do a golf shoe. Yeah, do a golf shoe.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know, but I'm open for suggestions.
John, let's do the Smartless. Can we do the Smartless McEnroe golf shoe? Can we do this? There we go.
A little collab. Let's do that.
Before we let you go, what's the thing that people would be most surprised that you do? We know about tennis. We know about music.
We know about golf. Is there a hobby that you just can't live without or a little pastime, even if it's just watching TV or maybe even reading? Will likes to read about World War II.
A lot of people don't know that. A lot of people don't.
I'm pretty much an open book, more or less. What you see is what you get.
I do have a passion. Thankfully, I love music.
It keeps me humble in a way because I've obviously been around so many great rock guys and seen so many shows and are just like, who are you? My marriage is an incredible thing. I was just going to say, your marriage is a pattern.
And so that's, you know, she said to me way back when, I said, because she was disillusioned, she had sold a couple million records, but wasn't, you know, felt like she was treated fairly enough as a woman and she was disillusioned. So I'm coming in and I'm like, hey, why don't we have a band together? I'll join your band.
I've got a lot of energy. And she goes, yeah, we should play mixed doubles at Wimbledon also.
And I go, you don't play tennis. And she goes, exactly.
So that was 28 or 9 years ago. So, you know, it's kept my perspective there.
I still love it. I try to be less, I guess one thing that would be different is that I try to be less competitive.
Yeah, yeah. Actually.
Yeah. Because you look at me and the way I played, and obviously the people saw that I was pretty competitive.
So they're always, you know, if God forbid I don't scream or fall over on the golf course, they're like upset at me now. You guys say like, we're not going to invite you to Bel Air unless you fall over at least once and scream at Skip Bronson.
We only mention Skip every fourth episode. Hey, do you know, John, I will say this, this is not a question, it's a compliment.
Of all the times I've met you over the last 20 years, you're so consistently yourself. And I think that, and it really shows.
And like you said, what you see is what you get. That's true.
You are very, you're an authentic guy. And you really are you.
Whether you're talking to the biggest rock star or you're talking to the guy who's bringing you your car, you're the exact same dude. And I think it speaks a lot to your character.
So, you know, it's admirable. It never seems insincere.
Like, you're not doing a thing. You enjoy being you, and that's infectious.
I do, and I want to thank my wife, Patty Smythe, because the greatest thing you can have in a relationship, it's been 29 years now, is to let the person be the person you want to be. And she's allowed me to do that.
So love you, baby. Thank you, Will.
I appreciate it. Hey, what band are you loving listening to right now? You know, I'm more of like the grunge guy.
I'm looking for new stuff. Wait, grunge.
So you're into Pearl Jam and Soundgarden and Alice in Chains. Those guys.
I'm going to go see the Foo Fighters. Yeah, sure.
All that stuff. So good.
You know, I love Kings of Leon, too. Yeah, yeah.
But there doesn't seem to be, like, the new rock stars are the rap guys. Yeah, or it's all electric or something, yeah.
Rock is sort of a little like tennis, you know? I mean, we got to get our act together. Yeah, yeah, all right.
Yeah. Well, John, thank you for spending some time with us, buddy.
Please come back to Los Angeles soon so we can go play some golf. Love to, man.
Thanks for having me. I appreciate it and awesome.
Thank you, buddy. Thanks, John.
All right. Can't wait to see you again.
All right, John. Thanks.
Thanks, John. You got it, guys.
Take care. All right.
Bye, man. Bye.
Yeah, I really mean that about him. He is, you know, I find myself saying this to my daughters as often as they'll bear me saying it.
That's daddy's. Oh, sorry.
Is there's just, there's just, there's just one of all of us, you know? So why would you waste any time trying to be someone else? I mean, I'm biting that from someone else famously said that, I'm sure. But he's so clearly himself.
He's unique. He's singular.
And he enjoys that, makes no apologies for it. And it is encouraging.
It's infectious. He's the same when you, if you're having someone to eat with him.
Or remember, we played with him at Riv. We played in the Pro-Am.
If he's teeing off in front of 100 people, if he's walking to the thing, if you're grabbing, he's the same. He's consistently He talked the same way in the supermarket

in the checkout line. Yeah, he's just

him. And when he's in the booth, too.

Right? When you listen to him on the

broadcast. I wanted to tell him

I played tennis when I was

a kid a lot. I took tennis lessons.

Oh, he would have loved to hear that.

Jesus. Are you back? You're snacking

again. I love when you save

some of your best moments for after the guest is gone. What else would you have put him to bed with? Hey, hey.
No, wait. So, wait.
Yeah, yeah. So, my brother used to ride me on his 10-speed bike to tennis practice.
I used to sit in the bar in the middle of the bike. Sure.
Like side saddle. And he would ride his bike all the way across town.
And then on the way home, he crashed and I blacked out and I got a super fat lip and the ambulance had to come. And I was sitting on my neighbor's porch.
Ambulance had to come was the sentence. Go ahead.
Ambulance had a came. The ambulance had a came.
Ambulance had a come. That's just peanut butter that gets stuck on your teeth.
Me and Billy standing there with the silver in our hair. Was that the pickup truck? Nearly.
This sounds like the lyrics for Stone Me by Van Morrison. I thought he was just trying to back into a buy here, but no.
No, there's no buy. No, I thought.
Sean, what are you eating? Tell us what you're eating. I just put a grape in my mouth okay a grape is it green or red hey guys let me ask you this do you think that oh it's red do you think that that i want to know where you guys stand on because it happened and we kind of let it go where you guys land on father clock because father clock that was a low point for me.

That was real.

You know, the brain just doesn't fire like it used to.

I never forget.

Father Clock is the name of my high school band.

We're going to make Smartless Father Clock sweatshirts.

Yeah.

And then Father Clock, you know, when you watch the Father Clock, you just watch time go, Bye! Very nice. Smart.
Nice. Smart.
Nice. Smartless is 100% organic and artisanally handcrafted by Bennett Barbaco, Michael Grant Terry, and Rob Armjarf.
Smartless. Hey friends, Jason here.
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