"Steven Soderbergh"

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Okay, guys, we're going to admit what our favorite pasta dish is on three.

Ready?

Yeah, okay.

One, two, three.

Chicken Alfredo.

Welcome to Smart List. Smart List.

Smart List. Smart.
Lattice. Smart.
Lattice. Smart.
Lattice. You seem so stressed out.
Why are you so stressed out, Jay? I'm not. I'm really, I don't know why.
I'm tired today. No one wants to hear about it, though.
This is probably not a great way to start. From the early golf? It's just too much golf.
You're right. Nobody does want to hear it.
I just asked you why you were tired. I did have an early round.
I shot 77 yesterday, Will. I know you don't care, and you don't want to hear about it.
I do. I'm very proud of it.
I'm happy. I'm happy for you because you have the last couple weeks, and I can say this now that you've shot, you had a round yesterday it's been unlike you and you've had some mediocre rounds and I know you've been upset and you've had a few grumpier than usual days thank you for seeing me and hearing me here's what the number 77 in golf means to me that sounds really high well the level par normal is 70 or 72 yeah okay oh my god so that's if you did everything i've been watching lord of the rings okay moving on i'll tell you this speaking of lord of the rings are you guys being are you guys being held hostage somewhere what's going on i've never seen any of them but i'll bet oh so good.
They're very good. Speaking of Lord of the Rings, Amanda and I have our anniversary coming up.
I can say this because she won't. Well, no, she doesn't listen to these.
I have it in my calendar. Amanda does not listen.
She does not listen. So we have it coming up in a month or so, and I thought about getting her a ring, this ring from this jeweler that she likes.
How many years? I haven't bought her any jewelry in a long, long time. And so this is, and I usually don't do it unless it's pre-approved by her.
Because anytime I try to like go rogue, I get slammed. Jay, I got somebody.
Dude, enough with all the hot romance. It sounds so incredible.
Jay, I have somebody if you want somebody.

No, no, no.

I got that.

He's got the person who was approved by Amanda.

This is a pre-approved person.

I know the person.

But we share a calendar.

We share a calendar, Amanda and I.

And so I had to put a reminder on my calendar to go to this jeweler today.

And because I'm going to get her a ring, put as the the the prompt of the calendar as just lord lord oh lord of the rings for lord of the rings now our assistant shares a calendar too with us and i'm waiting for her to say where have you found to worship on tuesday why are you worshiping on a tuesday um but I couldn't come up with a better prompt in the calendar. No, that's good.
That's my Lord of the Rings story. Is that what Lord meant? Is it Lord of the Rings? Yeah, Lord of the Rings.
So I would remember, oh, go get that ring today. All right.
And did you get it? I don't know. Not yet.
It's after this. I got to be honest.
Is it not a great story? Well, it's a long story, but I will say this. That's my specialty, bro.
That it begs a lot of questions from the other two people with whom you share a calendar, which I think is a mistake. A.
B. I don't have as many secrets as you.
Well, you have an assistant, and if a man has a question about your calendar, she can say, hey, how does he look like on this day? Yeah. B.
But C, by putting Lord, it's begging someone to go,

what's going on?

And what you should have done

is done something like golf lesson.

Yeah.

Or some stupid fucking thing like that.

But no, you didn't do that.

I guess I was so excited that I was like,

well, tell me, what did you get or what kind of ring?

Nothing yet.

Oh, you're going to go pick it out? Yeah, it's one of these vintage goddamn things. I know the lady.
How many years, Jay? Yeah. 20 plus.
Wow. So what are you going to get for the 20? I better find out before we hit 25, because 25 is silver.
25 is when you get, like, the real ring. I'd nail down the day, the number of actual years right yeah before you know just in case it comes up um i think i heard i think i heard our our guest has been laughing and how foolish we are i know we're wasting his time i know we really are you know what i'm stalling because i'm really nervous actually i think that's why i'm tired today yeah Yeah.
It's so much better when it's not my guest, because then I can just hit fuck it, and I just roll in completely unprepared, and I just get to respond like the dingbat I am. But today, hang on.
There's a hero here today. Do we have, I can't wait to hear the, I'm so excited for your intro that you've written because these are my least, sorry,

favorite parts about

Did it sound like you almost said least, Sean?

It did seem like. It did, but I

actually really like them, Jay. There's thought behind them

and they're always kind of funny. Thank you, Sean.

You mean I don't wing it like Lazy

Boy over there. Or

me. Yeah, or you.

Alright,

here he comes.

Today our guest might be the

person I've most wanted to meet in this

Thank you. me yeah or you um all right here he comes today our guest might be the person i've most wanted to meet in this nutty biz he's a master you've never met him i don't i if i have i'm going to be really embarrassed i don't think i have i would have remembered but he's going to tell me maybe if he remembers and we didn't sorry i think we i don't think we have he's a master filmmaker and and incredibly prolific.
He made his first movie 35 years ago and has made 35 films since. Oh my God, funny.
Not to mention his many, many projects for the small screen. His films have made over $2 billion and received 14 Academy Award nominations.
In 2000, he won the Oscar for Best Director and his odds were good because that year he was nominated for two films. He's come a long way from writing music for game shows and holding cue cards.
He's got a couple of kids, a wife named Jules, and we're born on the same day, January 14th. Please welcome the one and only Steven Soderbergh.
Oh, my God. Oh, my God.
We're born on the same day. Yeah.
Now, see, I track you. You don't track me.
That's all right. Wait a minute.
Yeah. January 14th.
I shared a birthday with you, LL Cool J, and Dave Grohl. Okay? That's great company.
Together again. It is.
I would like to see that grouping together. Steven Soderbergh, welcome to SmartLess.
This is so cool. What a thrill.
It's so nice to meet you. I i'm gonna be the most boring person here how does this work how do what do i do we're just gonna bullshit no listener you should know when we start recording we will tell you who the most boring people yeah i'm kidding i'm kidding listener we're starting with a great soderbergh piece of composition here he's got he's got a frame left uh or frame.
He's got a spiral staircase cutting up through the ceiling. It's like a cool shot.
And it's a low angle. We've got a nice palette going.
Steven, it's just... You never stop being great, right? This is the bunker.
This is the bunker. This is the bunker.
Alright, now, Steven. with Stephen? I know, because there's a lot.
Sean's got, as he would say, 9,000 questions for you or 17,000 questions. And for all the listeners I see, people always go, Sean always says I've got 9,000 questions or 17,000.
You know what? He does, so F off. So, Stephen, I've often felt like, and I feel like I've seen this out there before, so maybe it was informed by that, and maybe it wasn't my original idea, but I've often felt like when people talk about independent film, in independent film, the 90s were its real heyday.
That was sort of the genesis of the, you know, we had the auteurist from the 70s, but then the 90s was like a whole new movement. And I feel like you were sort of on the cutting edge of that.
Sex, Lies, and Videotape was late 80s. I'm going to say like 80, 89, 89.
Sex, Lies, and Videotape really was the kicking off point for, and was the beginning of this sort of golden age of independent film. And you were really, really in a lot of ways, the godfather of that.
And then you went on to make so many unbelievably incredible films, some with bigger budget, some not, but you've always maintained, there's something about the way that you've kind of kept that sort of independent spirit within the framework of the studio system. And I don't know if you agree with me or disagree with me, but is that something that was always, I don't know, is that something that's part of you, the way that you approach making films? It's a terrible question, but I think you know what I'm getting at.
Yeah, I think I do. I think it comes down to all of the films that I saw that influenced me, that I felt were great, had a signature.
They were made by, they felt as though they were made by an individual. Right.
And so my goal coming up on the heels of what's often called the American new wave that followed the new wave that came from Europe and other parts of the world. That was what made this feel new.
We knew that there were studio films made by certain directors that had a certain signature. But the idea that over time, on a percentage basis, yielded better movies was not an idea that emerged until this new wave showed up.
And people like me, who wanted to make movies, were watching these movies and feeling like there was a difference between something that felt made by a person and something that felt made by a company.

Right. And that I just felt, well, I want to do that.
That's what I want to be a part of. And I've tried to maintain that and also sort of brainwash you know other people around me and behind me to sign on to that idea well but you also did this thing where you you sorry jason but i was just want to sort of still on this where you made all these films and a lot of them very, all of them very different from the next, and a lot of, I find that a lot of filmmakers have a signature style or a thing that they do that makes, you know, but that you have been able to sort of constantly change, not necessarily the way you make films, but certainly tonally the way that you really lean into whatever it is, the film that you're doing, and you make it unique to that.
They're all very, very different, and I think it's such a testament to, I don't know. A lack of originality.
No, no, no, no. No, no, you can't pigeonhole you.
You can't pick like... No, but that's, I'm a synthesis.
I mean, I can tell you that right now. I'm a synthesis.
I know the difference between somebody who's a true original and somebody who's a synthesis. I've seen it.
I've met them. I'm a synthesis.
I don't look at anything I've done and gone, well, I did that first. Like, that's not true.
My, what I do and what I like to do is see as much as I can see and, and attach to as much as I can attach to that I think is really compelling and then put it in a bucket and, you know, stew it around as I'm envisioning whatever the next thing is and go, oh, okay, I can use that, I can use that, I can use that. I'm going to save those other things.
They don't work for this. I'll kick those down the road.
But I'm just taking in anything I think is good, a shot, a line, a transition, an idea, a font, i'm i'm looking for anything so you don't you kind of already just answered this but i was going to say so you don't you don't consciously uh seek out like i want to do a big gigantic franchise for a studio because i have dollar signs in my eyes or whatever you'd rather go for for idea for whatever whatever speaks to you personally, right? I mean, it's a dumb question, but you kind of just said it, correct? Well, I'm looking potentially through two different lenses. If there's nothing immediately in front of me, I'm just watching things to pick up new ideas and new information.
If there's something then that I focus on, oh, I'm going to do this next, then I start to telescope that toward things that I think have been really good in that space. Yeah, because I think what's fascinating is with somebody like you and your brain, I think I'm sure lots of people want...
We always ask this of people that are as successful as you, is like, we try to get inside of the head and be like, what informs your decisions? Because they seem to be always correct. Like, that's what's fascinating to me is like finding out what, where that comes from inside of you rather than this is a great story, I've never seen it.
It's got to speak to something even deeper than that and i'm always

fascinated with people with your track records like god you get it right time after time after time after time what is that secret sauce i look if i knew what it was i would tell you um but i keep it from me no no because i'm honestly i'm the i'm the son of a teacher i'm an open source person. I don't keep anything that I've learned private, even when people wish that I would.
So, you know, it is purely a question of taste, which is developed by what you grew up around. Yeah.

And then your sort of willingness to kind of grind it out

to get to the good version of something.

Yeah.

And while doing that, in my view, and this is really important,

creating an atmosphere of creativity.

You don't do this shit by yourself.

Right.

Creating an environment in which people are thinking about the thing.

They're not thinking about you and how you're behaving.

They're thinking about the thing.

And so you're in this continual sort of conversation about what is the thing? What is the best version of this thing? Right. If it's if it's going good, you go with that and it's flowing when it pushes back at you.
What's your sort of checklist for why? You know, it's pushing back. Why? Right.
It was going fine. Now we've hit a bump.
What are the questions I need to ask to get to the solve? Yeah. There's no shortcut to that other than being on the floor.
Right, right, right. So you very humbly say that you're more of a synthesizer than something else.
But what would you say to anybody out there listening that might be thinking about becoming a director and weighing the effort of education, you know, in that space and taking, you know, directing classes or the equal of that, whatever that is. Like how much of what you do is technique that you've learned and how much of it is as you say just synthesizing different elements that you've observed liked and then now you're just executing taste and and putting together a combination of all those things and reacting on the fly well whenever i'm asked should i go to film school or if some parent asks should my child go to film school? Or if some parent asks, should my child go to film school?

My response is that, look, if only to be part of a gang, it's worth it.

You know what I mean?

I don't think anybody's going to teach.

If they're good, they're good.

And they'll be fine.

But you need a gang.

Like, you need a group. I had it.
I just was lucky. I had it in high school instead of in college.
So I just got lucky. But we were a gang.
We were a gang of people that wanted to make movies and were making short films, doing everything on everybody's projects. and so if that's the only thing you got out of going to film school, that's huge, actually.
Yeah, I always say that about college. It's like college was more, taught me more about...
It's about socializing. Yes, exactly.
Exactly. And we will be right back.
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Our show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

Hey guys, everybody should have a support system, right? Who's your support system? My support system,

as you well know, talk about it all the time, is Scotty and of course my two besties

Thank you. Our show is sponsored by BetterHelp.
Hey guys, everybody should have a support system, right? Who's your support system?

My support system, as you well know,

talk about all the time, is Scotty.

And of course, my two besties, Will and Jason.

Whenever I have a problem, an issue,

I talk to them about it.

And if they're not available,

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and it's always great.

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I'm sorry. And now back to the show.
Speaking of a gang, you often work with the same people or you you've worked with the same people a lot um uh two of which um are our past guests on on this um this little chat show uh george clooney and matt damon um why do you think those two have managed to work so much given their limited level of talent especially matt why the fuck is somehow wiggled through all of the barriers. Yeah, Matt has really wiggled through.
Yeah, so you're partly to blame for this. But why was it that you said yes to them so many times? Do they have stuff on you or...
Yeah. What is that? It's craven.
Yeah. It was funny because in the case of George, you know, we met at a time where both of us were viewed as kind of question marks.
It was, we hadn't. Was that out out of sight was that when you guys were pre out

of sight this is pre out of sight so i've after sex after sex lies i've made five things that nobody saw and not a lot of people liked and george was becoming a giant tv star and making movies that were doing okay, but for whatever reason didn't seem to be

capturing the essence of what makes George, George. And so we were both in this kind of weird, you know, transitional space, it was a thing that I was not front of line.
I had to wait for people to pass. And I felt like I knew what it was.
Like, I just felt like I knew what it was. And I went, George was already attached.
And I said, here's what I think it is. And they agreed with that.
and it was Jersey Films and George support that got me that job.

I couldn't. And I said, here's what I think it is.
And they agreed with that. And it was Jersey Films and George's support that got me that job.

I could not have been colder at that point.

And, you know, that kind of, for both of us,

just took the narrative in a different direction.

Yeah.

You know, sidebar.

Yeah, go ahead.

I was just going to say, behind the candelabra. I didn't know we were allowing sidebars.
Yeah, I think that's part of our show. It might be one of your other podcasts.
But go ahead, sidebar. No, I was going to say Matt Damon and I were having dinner right before we started shooting behind the candelabra and he said to me, I'm going to get this wrong and he's going to kill me.
But it was something like, Sean, I don't know what to do. What do you think about me making out with Michael Douglas in this movie? He goes, are people going to be able to lose themselves in my role? I was like, well, of course.
He's like, are people going to write about that part? Something like that. And I said, well, of course you guys are both brilliant actors.
But no, the press is definitely going to take photos and the stills and going to say, Matt Damon and Michael Douglas are making out in this movie. Like there's no, you can't avoid that.
It was so funny. And I'm like, why are you asking me? I thought he was going to ask you, how do I kiss a man? Yeah.
Can you show me how to? I said, do you want to run lines? Like I asked Bradley. You want to workshop it real quick.
Do you... That was it.
Was that the end? No, that was just my little story. He was like, how do I avoid the press of that? I saw him the day before we started shooting, and he said...
He said, I had this terrible dinner with this actor. Sean.
Whose initials are Sean Hayes. Whose initials are shh, and that's all I hear from Jason and Will.
Yeah. And he goes, I want to be clear about where I should be pitching this.
And I said, I think tomorrow when you put the whole thing on, you'll know exactly what it is. If you're an actor, this is why I try desperately to not engage in sort of intellectual conversations with an actor about a scene that we're trying, it's physical.
If the's right it's going to be right right and so that starts with the wardrobe literally it does like yeah what are my shoes what about like what yeah yeah because it helps it helps so much are you are you happy in what you're wearing are you not happy in what you're wearing like it's a part of In fact, to make it physical and i just said when you put that hair and the stuff on you're gonna be that guy that's right yeah jason do you see yourself arguing with steven on set if you're working together because he won't intellectualize and i know that you like to grind people to a fine nub with your stupid questions do you find as art sorry let me just start that again as artists further from the truth that's true i know i know i know i'm fucking with you okay let me jason let me ask you a question so george yeah george subsequent to us working together um then became a director confessions of a dangerous mind great director yeah and Matt would be a great director, tooessions of a Dangerous Mind. Great director.

Yeah.

Matt would be a great director, too.

I think so, too.

Yeah, for sure.

He's waited a long time, hasn't he?

It's coming.

But I will not repeat what George said to me

after having directed his first film about actors.

Yeah.

Oh, come on.

You've got to say it. You've got to say it.
I just said it. Yeah, I can imagine.
You know what I mean. He just had a very, he's like, wow.
He goes, sounds obvious and like a cliche, but I have a very, very different view now of what happens when somebody comes at me as an actor.

Yeah, but Jay, you said that similarly to me here and outside of here where you're just like,

I won't engage.

It's just like you don't appreciate how helpful a helpful actor can be.

Oh, dude, can save your ass.

Until you direct because it's between action and cut, the director is completely helpless. You are fully reliant on the operator, the dolly grip, the actor, the boom operator, everybody to not fuck it up and just try to make everything coalesce and be aware that you're dancing with other departments that might not be on camera, but Like, it's all got to work.
And if you can kind of keep half an eye on the process and all that. So somebody like George or Matt, who both have, like, huge set IQs, they can help while things are rolling.
Oh, yeah. And George certainly, once he started directing, probably realized that even more.
But, Jay, you said something really smart, though. I think it was on here.
You were saying something like... It happened.
The more... And I'm looking at my calendar.
Hopefully it's recorded. I share a calendar with Jason's wife.
That's how you knew today. It's happening.
No, I was going to say, you said something about like double sidebar like working with actors about like there's a line where you'll have these great discussions with them but you know where to end them because if you engage too long you reach a point where you're just talking in circles after a while or something like that yeah and ultimately like it's not up to you director like the actor's gonna do what that actor can do the best they possibly can do it and and i've and i've read steven that you've said that so i know i'm so i'm paraphrasing here obviously but you basically the the the spirit of it was you have a very light touch um because you realize that the best results will come from the atmosphere of comfort and confidence and safety and you will encourage them. I think you said something like, I want to make sure everybody's okay.
And then you'll keep them all on the rails as opposed to a more sort of prescriptive version of directing, which is, you know, I see you going up on this word and maybe come back down at the end of the line and then sit down over here. Like it happens all the time.
No, but it has to be, there has to be a structure. There has to be a decider.
What, what my goal is to just have the process feel like it's evolving organically, it's it's really a trust issue that if it all comes down to when i say no that doesn't work you believe me right it's not i'm not shutting you down for any other reason than i've gamed out all the versions of this with that in it. And I'm telling you, it's, it's an, or that needs to be extracted.
That doesn't fit that we have enough of a relationship because you've usually been spot on. You know what I mean? When you go like, Hey, what if I do, what if this? And I go, yes, that's good, chase that.
But when I go, no, that doesn't work because of X, that then we move on to the next thing. I'm sure you carry a lot more credibility than other directors do with some actors because you're actually oftentimes holding the camera and you have written it and you're going to be editing it.
Like you've got your arms around, completely around all the projects that you do in the best way. And I'm so envious that you know how to operate and that you know how to edit and know how to write and all that stuff.
Direct. Yeah.
I was going to ask, well, I was going to ask if I could, Sean, because you've had two sidebars and three questions. You derailed

the entire thing. Just a sidebar.
And now we're

on to loose quotes that Jason's

got of even, I think you once said.

Now we're actual

bars. I mean, we're putting words in his mouth.
This is just

an absolute affront to the man.

What I

wanted to get back to, just

because you touched on it before, you talked

about when you were early on, when you and George got

together and you started and you'd been making some films

that nobody knew, that nobody had seen or whatever, you're a very, as a director, you're very prolific. Unusually so, I would say.
To the extent that not, two of the better directors, American directors in the last 30 years are you and Todd Field. And Todd's made five films.
I don't, I call him Todd. I don't know him.
He's made five films and you've made sort of 30. He's made three.
Maybe he's made three. Is it three? Made three, yeah.
Wow. In the Bedroom, Little Children, and Tar.
Tar, that's it. Is that hit? Yep.
Features. I mean, incredible.
But a thousand commercials, guys. A thousand commercials guys really the best commercial yeah yeah but but but and then and you've and you've made a lot and again i'm maybe 30 or 25 or something like that and and but you've both made great movies him is there something to for you as an artist do you do you enjoy that process of constantly creating, do you need to be constantly creating? Because you don't have to do it.
I guess you just must love it. Well, you thought about not doing it anymore for a little while and then it was just a hiatus, yeah? Yeah, that was, boy, that was embarrassing.
You were probably misquoted or overly quoted or something. No, no was the problem i was very accurately quoted um the look i'm in the volume business um it's it's that's just my metabolism um the the there's a big downside to that which is nothing you do is an event uh interesting but i don't but i i just i can't let that stop me i can't no but you still but you still make that well we'll sort that out later but i i you let you like doing what you do so why not keep doing it right yeah well well by the the way, maybe it's not an event in the sense that you've, you know, if you release a film and you've released a film a year before, to the extent that, like, well, okay, he's got another...
But you make a... You're consistently...
You make really good films. So that's not a strike against you or a knock against you.
If anything, I'm just interested in the process that some people like to do, need that to do it more. Oh, I would love if people were like, he's Taylor Swift.
Right. He's the Taylor Swift of cinema.
I would love that. Nobody is saying that.
Just put a wig on. We are going to say it.
There's our tease right there. We got it.
That is our tease. Wait, I have a dumb, dumb thing to say about contagion.
Have people in the last 20 years just been like, did you know that when you made contagion, there was going to be COVID? Wait, Sean, by the way. I'm so sorry, Steve.
Wait, how are you separating yourself from, that's what you're asking. Yeah, why do you make yourself sound like that? But who is, where was that person from? My head.
Well, what's your hometown, Sean? Chicago. Yeah, it was, I'll bet, I'll bet you did a ton of research going into that film that the past administration could have benefited from.
Just your pre-production notes probably You know what? Here, there are a couple of things we missed. The big one we missed was that the idea that the Jude Law character in Contagion would be the president.
Right. That's what we missed.
We presented him as this sort of note in a larger chord we didn't imagine a world in which he's the chord yeah and so that's the big thing we got wrong but from a technical you weren't out to make a comedy no but from a technical level this is what everybody said this is how it's going to start and and were you And were you a science guy? Were you interested in any of that kind of stuff? Well, I mean, I like it. The only reason I ask is because I'm going to ask next about Magic Mike.
Not that I've seen it. Well, that's science.
That's science. I mean, that shit's science.
Sean, would you like Will and I to just take a 10-minute break? Or you go through all three of the Magic Mikes? Sean wanted to, and Sean's going to be embarrassed to ask you, and he's got a bit of an issue, because he once said to me, he said, did you see Magic Mike? He said, yeah. And I said, do you like it? And he says, yeah, it was okay.
I go, what's wrong? And he said, there were no fucking bears in it and it was just slim muscle guys i was like i'm out i'm out i'm out that's true no those are so good no i i asked about like you know going back to my earlier question from an hour ago which is like what what is what's the criteria for you to choose projects it's like you go from like jason was saying you go from like contagion which is a science crazy movie to remaking the ocean sinks or whatever the order is, to choose projects. It's like you go from, like Jason was saying, you go from like Contagion, which is a science crazy movie to remaking the Ocean Stinks or whatever the order is to Stripper's Magic Mike.
I mean, it's so all over the place, which is so incredible. It's so...
Yeah, what's the thing that draws you to stuff? Is it thematics or is it just based on, well, who brought me the script and who's the writer or where does it shoot? Is it any number of things? When I saw you directing Magic Mike, I was like, Steven, what? Wait. It was so cool though.
Yeah, I only have one rule. I don't have a rule in terms of where it comes from.
It doesn't have to be my idea. I'm really agnostic about that.
The only rule is if it's not a hell yeah, it's a no. Yeah, I like that.
Yeah. I love that too.
And I mean a hell yeah. I mean, as you know, when you say, I'm going to direct this, you know what that means.
And that's rule number one. Like it has to be a hell yeah.
I would do it for free. I would do it for however long it's going to take.
You have to be that excited. Yeah, for sure.
Or don't do it. Would you ever, what about if it was a hell to the yizza? And let me ask you.
How would, I'm a young director. I haven't done a lot, but I'm trying out this thing where the.
Nothing nothing about you is young it doesn't need to be a hell yeah um as much as just a yeah because basically a double because i feel like i can make it a triple during my work with it during pre-production and maybe even make it a home run during during shooting it and then definitely by through through post, through the editing and stuff. So does it need to be like a hell yeah at the beginning? Because you've got so much time with it to make it yours.
Well, two things. Yeah.
I have the luxury of taking that position, which is not a small thing. Now, that came about through a set of circumstances that were, I think, pretty unique.
The how sex lies happened. Yeah.
Where some people really supported me and let me do that the way I wanted to do it. And then from that point forward, that allowed me to do things the way I wanted them to do.
I had no contractual power on Sex Lies. I only had the power of persuasion, of convincing people, I think this is the best version of this.
And they agreed. And for my sister in Wisconsin, when you say Sex Lies, it's Sex Lies and Videotape, the big movie from 1989.
Do you think that's the tipping point for her? Yeah. She's like, sex lies, sex lies, sex lies.
Believe me, she likes to know these things. She likes to know these things.
Yeah, go ahead. Then I take your point that depending on where you are in your life, in your career, there could be levels of hell yeah.
You know what I mean? Yeah. But I feel like there's at least got to be one.
Yeah. It could be the person that's the lead in the thing.
And you're like, look, there's some stuff on the edges of this that are really etched in jello, but I love this person. I've had a great experience

with this person before. I feel safe.
Like, you know, that could be a hell yeah, absolutely. Can that be a crew member? Can that be a first AD or a...
Yeah, I think anybody that... It has to be somebody that you feel is next to you the whole time, no matter how escalated any conversation gets about what this thing should be.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like, it's got to be somebody who you're, I'm like, it's not just me, it's them too. We'll be right back.
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You have uh an incredible eye and aesthetic and taste and it's just you you it seems like you really enjoy cinematography um it would seem to me like you would really dork out in being able to hire the most incredible cinematographers available yet your director of photography on a lot of your own films under a different name. How do you sometimes want to maybe, like, go call Hoyt van Hoytma? And, like, I mean, how do you, I don't know.
It's a sacrifice. I'm trading one thing for another.
I'm trading that I'm not as good as them for the I'm not bad and the level of intimacy that it gives me with the cast. Sure.
I would trade even if I was bad. Yeah, yeah.
Like I like that relationship. And so it would be impossible for me to insert a genius like Emmanuel Lubezki, who I worked with in 1994.
Wow. It was his first job in the U.S.
on an anthology series for Showtime. And if you were to watch it now, it's all there.
He was fully formed. He was Chivo right out of the gate.
But I really need that. I need that sense of just us in the room.
Right. It takes away a lay—once you put another person in there, and again, these are brilliant people, you feel like it removes a— it just puts yet another barrier between you and the cast in that way that you've got to constantly run.
There's an added layer of dialogue that you have to have with some other person rather than it just being you and the camera and the cast and working, right? Yeah. And it's not like I'm saying that should be everybody's goal.
I'm just, I'm just saying like, this is how I came up. I was hanging out for four years of high school with these college aspiring filmmakers.
I knew my way around a dark room. I was a photographer for the yearbook.
Like it, it, it just was a very organic thing to want to be the nodal point for a series of decisions that constitute directing. Like that was, and it just took me a while to work my way back to that.
I feel like you make really sort of sophisticated films and you don't, and you have a lot of, you sort of trust that the audience can meet you there. That's one of the things that I really enjoy about your films.
I feel like they're like accessible, sophisticated films. And you're not worried about alienating the audience.
In fact, I imagine that you have, and tell me if I'm wrong, but that you've had conversations with studios over the years where they've been worried that your films, or thematically, or the way that they look, or the way way that they set up or that they're worried that it's not going to connect with the audience and that I get this feeling from you that it's like, it's okay. I know what I'm doing.
I'm going to make this film. Yes, it's going to have a sophisticated elements to it, but I'm going to connect with the audience.
It does seem like you're always aware that there's a big commercial center of it,

that you are giving something to the audience,

to the studio,

but the execution is always elevated and sophisticated.

Well, the films that I liked the most

were both commercial and artful.

I mean, that was what the American New Wave did.

It fused a sort of aesthetic that came from outside of the United States of America, a sort of attention to style and character that people in other parts of the world were doing. And then blended it with this very, very American desire to tell a clear narrative.
Right. And that it was like the perfect fusion of these two.
That's what I wanted to do. So, you know, the things that I feel haven't worked have been the ones that have fallen too far into, wow, that would really work if it had subtitles.
But can you explain style to Jason and Sean? Because they, I'm not going to say lack of it, it's just that they're unaware of it. I've got a SmartList t-shirt on.
Oh, there it is. There it is.
Well, you did mention that All the President's Men is one of your favorite movies. I was going to say, what's your favorite film of all time? Well, that's impossible.
Yeah. But I think you ranked them at some point and All the President's Men was number two.
Oh, I used to. I was very excited.
Yeah, when I was younger, I used to. But I think, look, in the summer of 1975, when I was in St.
Petersburg, Florida, visiting my grandparents alone, I saw Jaws. I was just going to bring that up.
Prior to this point, my father was a cinema fanatic. He gave me the cinema bug and we watched, he took me the bug, like we all, this was part of our bond.
Me too. But that was the first time after that movie was over.
Ironically, this perfect piece of entertainment now made me not think of movies as just entertainment anymore. So I had two questions.
What is directed by mean? And who is Steven Spielberg? So it turns out, you know, in any store that you walked into, there was a paperback called The Jaws Log that Carl Gottlieb wrote, and it answered both of those questions. And I carried this thing around with me and highlighted every section that mentioned Steven Spielberg.
And then a year later, when we moved to Baton Rouge, Louisiana, where my dad was dean of education at LSU, I fell in with these college film students and got my hands on a camera and everything started to move. Wow.
That's amazing. And if you say both of your names fast, they sound the same.
Oh, totally. But I was just going to say, when you were talking about, like, you know, Americanizing storytelling, I was literally, I swear to God, I was going to say like Jaws.
I was going to say that. But anyway, do you still go to the movie theaters now or do you just watch everything at home? No, I do both.
I do, yeah. I still, this is never going to go away.
It's too fun to see something with a lot of people. Have you seen something out in the movie theaters that you love recently? I think the last thing I saw in a theater, and this is only because I've shot three things in a row in the last 12 months.
Last thing I saw in a theater would have been Top Gun, which just proves that Tom Cruise has saved the movie business. Now, I want to talk about Full Circle, but before we do, first thing that comes to your mind if I ask you what your favorite part of directing is.
The surprise that is the result of arranging the elements in the right way that will result in a surprise. Typically something an actor does.
And where do you see that surprise? Do you see it on the first rehearsal? Do you see it on the first take? Or do you see it when you put it all together in the editing room? I'm open to any of that. If it happens in a rehearsal, as long as it happens, we win.
So you're open and excited to that which you didn't imagine last night. Nothing makes me, there was a thing, a shot that we did in Logan Lucky where Adam Driver, something's shot out of a tube to Adam and there's some lack of understanding whether the thing that's in his hand could actually blow up and kill all of them.
And Daniel Craig is sort of, he comes over and takes the thing from Adam and had a reaction on the first take that I ruined the take. Too much laughing? No, I just ruined the take.
it was something I didn't see coming. Well, how did you ruin it? It's in the movie, but I had to loop his vocalization just before he did it and his vocalization just after because I was laughing.
Yeah. But what about, was the camera shaking too because you were laughing? No, thank God.
It was on a head. It was locked down.
There you go. So I was touching it, but I didn't shake it.
Right. And that's a problem, as you know, that can be solved in post.
Yeah. But no, that's, that means we all did our job and created this sort of velvet lined shoot that led to somebody going, what if I did this? And you're like, that's better.
It's better. How worried are you about AI? Well, that's a good question.
Sorry, not just for filmmaking, just in general. No, it's a good question because I think this is at the center of a lot of what's going on right now.
I can only speak of it as a creative person and go, it's an iterative tool. It's never going to get you in the end zone.
It hasn't experienced anything. It's, you know what I mean? Like it hasn't experienced anything, even to the point of it can look into your eyes, but it has no eyes.
And so therefore it doesn't know

what it means, you know, to be looked at by somebody. Like my mom, right? That's what I was

saying. And I think what you're describing potentially is what I've just sort of blanket,

used a blanket term of quirk. It doesn't have the advantage of possessing any quirk because it has

the what you're describing potentially is what I, I've just sort of blanket, use a blanket term of quirk. It doesn't have the advantage of possessing any quirk because it hasn't had any experience.
Nothing's happened to it. Yeah.
Yeah. But, but Jason, I think to your point, it, to me, it's just an iterative tool.
There's that, you know, perfect explanation of how to solve things from the Ed Catmull book about Pixar or Creativity Inc. where the motto is, be wrong as fast as you can.
So this is a tool to just, what I tell people all the time is, just get to the end. If this helps people get to the end of something, fine.
All right. Tell us about Full Circle.
I watched the first episode. It is typically and predictably fantastic.
Another piece of great work from you. It's by design somewhat cryptic at the beginning.
And I'm imagining the future episodes, things start to slot into place. So without giving away any of those satisfying things, what is the thing? It is a kidnapping that goes wrong.
But is there a thematic there at work that you like to play with often or not? Oh, sure. I mean, you know, buried things never stay buried.
Yeah. I mean, that's what this is about.
And in this instance, you know, it'd been buried for long enough that people had literally forgotten about it. And so it's kind of a rude awakening.
You can run, but you can't hide kind of thing. Yeah, and it's absolutely privilege, torture, porn.
I'm a big fan of that genre. I think Ed Solomon found a really interesting take on that.
And so, you know, I was all in. And I love that nonlinear storytelling and different perspectives.
I can't wait to see it. You.
Being surprised how they come together and braid at some point. Well, first of all, I don't know anything about it, Stephen, and I'm a big fan of Ed Solomon.
Obviously, he wrote Bill and Ted's and Men in Black. Another guy who's very prolific and done a lot of stuff that's very thematically different from the next.
And a bunch of stuff with you, Stephen, yeah. And a bunch of stuff with you, which is such a great pairing now that I think about it.
Of course, you guys are both just clearly interested. Not interesting people.
I'm sure you're both very interesting as well, but you're also very interested, which is great. What is Full Circle? Because I know nothing about it.
It's a show that's coming on Max. Yeah it's it's a it's a gigantic sort of new york sydney lumet style melodrama you know what i mean yeah there's a there's a crime in the center of it that sort of takes you all over the city um and like i said it's about karma it's about something that somebody, something that somebody took a part in 20 years ago, forgot about it, and now it's come back.
It's grown roots and branches, and now they have to deal with it. And that's the kind of thing that I like.
It was fun to make a real New York piece. You know what I mean? Seemed like there's a lot of night work in that, Stephen.
There was a lot of night work. Not a fan.
If I were the studios negotiating, I would give up almost everything to say like 5% night work. work like yeah like we're just we just hate it yeah now uh uh a little talk about sidebars side job here for you um a um uh signani 63 is a beverage are you getting into the to the what's signani oh god business a little bit yes singani is a spirit um from bolivia it's booze guys it's yeah it's it's booze it's hard stuff um anyway i i'm gonna do this really quickly when we were making che uh our bolivian casting director gave me a bottle as a It had never been out of Bolivia.
It's the national spirit of Bolivia. And it's made from the white musk out of Alexandria grape, which is a white grape.
It's grown and distilled in this one 20,000 acre area of southern Bolivia, It's 6,000 feet. So it's a very, very, it's hard to make.

And I got this stuff and I loved it. And for the next six months while we were shooting, I created a mule train so that we could all drink it.
At the end of that, some people pressured me to bring this to America, which I did in 2014. In February of this year, the Tax and Tariff Bureau, which is part of the Treasury Department and FDA and ATF, gave Singani its own category.
This is something they don't do often. It's something they don't like to do.
But they did it because it's a unique spirit. And this solved one problem when I was doing my Willy Loman act, taking bottles around in a backpack and going, hey, what do you think? Not a great look.
It legitimizes that when people would go, well, what is it like? And I would go, well, it's not actually like anything. And now finally, finally that's been legitimized but it's let's just end with do not go into the booze business sure don't don't do it well that's not what cluny said yeah or ryan reynolds don't tell no he knows he knows how angry i am i've told him it's funny because i did some it quite more profitable.
I did some yuling out of Bolivia myself, but it was a different. Jesus.
I know. Steven, it's such an honor to meet you.
I've wanted to meet you forever, and I'm a big fan of all your movies. We so appreciate you spending some time with us.
We sure do. So happy to meet you finally.
I'm going to hook up to this at the same time next week if you guys are here. Yes, sure.
Sadly, we'll be in the same seat. I want to see you cascade down that staircase.
Yeah. What a thrill.
Thank you so much. Thanks, pal.
Can't wait to meet you in person one day. And have a great rest of your day, Stephen.
Thank you for coming. Thanks.
Thank you, pal.

All right.

Bye, pal.

There you have Stephen Soderbergh.

That was a nice surprise, Jason Bateman.

This man.

How'd you get that?

Yeah.

I don't, you know, I've got my ways.

No, don't tell us.

We don't care.

My God.

I am very surprised.

I've never, have you guys ever run into him?

No.

I've never run into him.

Never, never not once.

He's not a man about town.

No, and I will say, I meant it too. I really admire how prolific he's been.
I love the idea that he just takes so many, not just a lot of shots, so many different kinds of shots. Like Aaron Brockovich.
Aaron Brockovich. Out of sight.
Sex, eyes, and videotape. Traffic.
Just like Magic Mike. All all of those things all by the same guy but what about that not since 1938 or 39 i think it was had a director been been nominated for two films in the same year for best he was nominated for aaron brockovich and traffic traffic best director and so he had two slots in the five that's that's incredible That's bananas that is bananas it is bananas how quickly sean did you go um did you opening day to full frontal when that came out that was the next year that was the next year he did full frontal i pre-ordered tickets for that yeah yeah hey by the way you know what i just learned yesterday guys tell us sean this Sean.
This should be good. In Hawaii, did you know it's against...

They sell pineapples and macadamia nuts.

No, no.

In Hawaii, no, listen to the whole thing.

In Hawaii, it's against the law to laugh really hard out loud in public.

Did you know that?

That's a bunch of bullshit.

You have to keep it to aloha.

Oh, man.

I would just also like to say...

I don't know. Aloha.
Oh, man. I would just also like to say...

That took a lot out of me just then.

I would also like to say, I love when I see you guys

because we don't see each other, and whenever we get together,

and we talk for a really long time, you know, it's like time flies. Bye.
Oh, Will did not like that one. They're just, they're getting lazier.
You're just kind of shoehorning in. Time flies by is a good one.
You're shoehorning in a father joke, too? A dad joke? I just heard it yesterday. That's become really good.
His signature is just a bad joke and then he tries to shoehorn in a bye. It's so...
That was a good one. We've never used Time Fly Spy.
No. Smart.
Less. Smart.
Less. SmartLess is 100% organic and artisanally handcrafted by Michael Grant Terry, Rob Armjarf, and Bennett Barbaco.
Smart Less. This episode was recorded on May 30th.
Hey, friends. Jason here.
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