"Joaquin Phoenix"

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Hey, everybody.

Welcome.

Do you love comedy?

Do you love to laugh?

Well, buckle up because you're going to fucking cry your eyes out.

Welcome to Smartless. Smart.
Smart. Smart.
Smart. Smart.
Smart. Hi, everybody.
Oh, Sean, what a nice top you have on this morning. Yeah.
What's it say? I can't read it. It says Smartless.
It says Hayes on the back. So Hayes 20, what does it say, 22 on the back? 26, 26.
26, that's your birth date, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Will, are you with us? So it's a Smartless shirt.
You can guess we're going to get the freaking merch plug right at the top. Yep, right there.
It's right there. I'm wearing it.
It's good to know that we make it in a double XL too. Yeah.
Good for you. You know what I mean? It's good.
You got both boobs tucked right in there. Yeah, right.
Bang, bang. Pow, pow.
How's everybody feeling? Is everybody a little sleepy today? Yeah, a little sleepy. It's a little early.
I could feel that. I could feel that.
Yesterday, I saw I'm in Tech Week. Well, this is probably going to air after we open.
Well, what's Tech Week for? What are you talking about? Are you doing a play in New York? Yeah, are you busy doing something? At the Tabasco? So, at the Tabasco Theater. It's so spicy, this show, y'all.
You've got to go check it out.'s stupid it's um anyway the belasco theater david belasco was the owner and this i just found out yesterday i couldn't wait to share it with you guys actually last night uh because we work we're working like 12 14 hour days whatever it is and uh well i don't know how many hours but it's long hours a. A lot of people work.
Seems like you do know them. Yeah.

And so this crew guy comes because everybody has these stories because there's an apartment on top of the theater.

The crew now?

What's that?

Oh, the crew guy.

The crew guy, yeah.

The crew guy, there's an apartment on top of the theater.

And I'm like, oh, you guys got a screw guy.

All right.

I'm like, screw guy, please.

And they just send one over right away.

I thought he sent one over to the screw guy.

So the screw guy gets there.

Oh, speaking of which, Scotty got his cue.

He walked by just as I said, screw guy.

I like seeing Scotty go by, just shuffle by in his shorts.

And there he goes.

So anyway.

Okay, so the screw guy told me about this story

because it's supposed to be haunted and blah, blah, blah sometimes.

And so David Blasco, who owned the theater years and years and years ago, there's this apartment on top of the theater that's now abandoned and nothing's up there. But he used to live there and there was an elevator shaft where he used to bring up, you know, lady friends over and over, right? And so one of the ladies fell through the elevator shaft and died.
It's now like boarded up. And people say, and they call her Lady in Blue because people say they can see

her in the seats sometimes. How do you

fall through an elevator shaft? I guess

it was open and there was no elevator. I guess.

I don't know. Boy.

There was an episode of L.A. Law once.

I'm not making it up.

I swear to God, I just

saw a clip of it recently and they're having a conversation

by the elevator door and this woman

speaks really tersely to the guy. She's like, so you better

watch out. Blah, blah, blah.
The elevator door is open.

She walks into the elevator shaft

Thank you. I just saw a clip of it recently, and they're having a conversation by the elevator door, and this woman speaks really tersely to the guy.
She's like, so you better watch out. Blah, blah, blah.
The elevator door is open. She walks into the elevator shaft and plunges to her death.
And the guy's like, oh, my God. It was on TV.
And that writer's room was like, how are we going to, what are we going to do in this episode? How are we going to? Doors open, and she just falls through, just like the lady in through just like the lady in blue yeah sean have you hit fuck it yet on this on this play so i mean it it's a long run right it's been taxing for jason and both jason and me it's been a lot i mean so but you haven't even started performances yet you've been you've been whacking away at it for how long now you've already done it in chicago for months and months and months. Yeah.
Now, because it's so good and was so well received, you take it to

New York, to the hot and

spicy Tabasco, and you're

in rehearsals right now.

You haven't gotten to the point of like,

it's enough. No.

I mean, as a...

You're discovering new things about it every day,

right? Yeah, you do kind of. The surprise guest just mentioned

just

messaged us and said

this is really interesting. Interesting.
So maybe we

Thank you. You're discovering new things about it every day, right? Yeah, you do kind of.
The surprise guest just mentioned, just messaged us and said, this is really interesting.

Interesting.

So maybe we should just start.

Wow.

I think he, it's a he, has got comments on this too.

Should we get right to him?

Yeah, I guess so.

I mean, by the way, should we mention the play's open now?

Yeah, I guess the play's open now by the time we record it mention the play's open now? Yeah, I guess the play's open now by the time we recorded this. The play's open now in New York at the Belasco.

Wait, what's the play called?

Okay.

And did I like it on opening night?

You would love it.

It's called Good Night, Oscar.

Okay, there it is.

All right, Good Night.

Is there a comma in there?

There is after night.

And good night, I didn't know, is two words.

I thought it was one word.

And if you find yourself at the theater, watch out for a gaping shaft. Oh, boy.
Wait, I love that. Wait, God, we got to put that on the Sean list.
So you thought goodnight was one word. I did that.
Didn't you think it was one word? Probably not. Just like good morning.
Has good morning ever been one word? You know what else, listener? Hang on, Sean. Listener, Sean was shocked to learn that John F.
Kennedy was not shot in Washington, D.C. You said that on the last episode.
Because it's stunning to me. You know what else, listener, is stunning about Sean? He was really surprised that Beatles, the group, the band.
I'm not the only one that thought that didn't know meant beat on a drum. B-E-A-T.
Sean, I'm just noticing you're in your place in New York right now. You've been there for a month now, but in the last couple of years, you haven't spent a ton of time there.
But in that back shelf there, did you guys go to knickknacks or us and just load up? Load up on the knickknacks? It's a real tchotchke haven. It's such a busy...
Hey, knickknack paddywhack. Look at your spider fern, too, up there on his own little...
That's nice, though. You're doing real well.
That's totally nice. All right, quiet down.
Here comes a respectable guest. All right, we've got a fella.
Listen, this fella doesn't do this. Okay? He doesn't do it at all.
He's trying to keep quiet and do his work. And while I haven't asked him, my bet is that he's dreading this and that he's thrilled that a full six minutes and 15 seconds are already over without him having to talk.
My job is to make this as painless and breezy as possible, and I need your help, man, because this is a Grammy award-winning artist from Puerto Rico and he's got a black belt in karate. Okay? What? Most folks, however, know him as one of the best actors of our generation so please say hello to actually one of the kindest, warmest, friendliest, most humble fellas I know.
Let's welcome Joaquin Phoenix. Oh, my God.
Come on. Wow.
There he is. There he is.
Hi, everybody. Hi.
Wait, you're in a trailer, aren't you? Are you in a trailer? Yeah, so I'm on set. Ah.
Oh, for the Joker, too. So I'm listening to the Jenny.
You guys are on Jenny Power right now.

Exactly.

Oh, that's the generation.

So then this is your lunch hour?

No, we're actually shooting kind of splits.

So, you know, we're going to start in a little bit.

So I just came up a little early.

The beat from Beatles, is that really for beat, like drums?

See, you dick. Yes, that's exactly right.
That was a new question that had to do with the beat poets. Oh, I didn't even think about that.
But no, it has to do with the beat. I thought it was the buzz.
Sean, real quick, because Joaquin mentioned it, tell Tracy what splits are. I have no idea.
Oh, bless him. They don't do splits on will and grace no it's always sensible the best hours in all which is like it is the best it's so splits listener is when you start um at noon and you end at midnight as opposed to if you shoot full nights you start when the sun goes down and you end when the sun comes up splits Splits is kind of a half-day, half-night shoot.
Yeah, that's perfect. Yeah, that's perfect.
Walking, I don't even know where to start, man. I don't know you at all.
We've never met, and I'm such a fan. Honestly, it's just, yeah.
And I guess let's do it kind of like how we always, what I want to know was, what was the, First of all, because you've done so many amazing characters and so many great movies, but what was your first memory, like your first job that you did? First job I did was a guest starring spot on a TV show called Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, which my brother River starred in. And they were shooting in Northern California.
And I think just by default, I think just because it was easy to get somebody local, me and my sister played the small part in the show. And I think that was probably my first significant job.
The one time I worked with River, were you, I think you were, were you not in it too when we did the thing about the Kennedys? We played, we played like young Kennedys. Yeah.
What was that? I forget what it was called. Anyway, it was like a movie of the week or something like that.
Oh, Robert F. Kennedy and his times.

Did you play one of the, because you were so small,

you probably couldn't even talk then.

Or maybe just barely.

Because we were like, we were 10 or 11 or something like that.

Weren't we?

Yeah, I was six or seven. No, I don't remember that.

I vaguely do now that you mentioned it.

It's like out in Massachusetts.

But I think the very first thing I did was that spot in San Francisco. And then so the acting to you, I'm not going to hammer you with your freaking method and all that stuff because I know you hate talking about that as do most.
I don't know what it is. I know.
exactly. It's just, well, that's what people ask me.

No, I like that.

I guess my question is,

when did you get a sense that this acting thing

might be a really comfortable thing for you to do

and not something that's going to be a lot of work,

you know, that it's not going to be like hammering nails?

I wouldn't say that it's very comfortable,

but I certainly don't care about that. I mean, I'm not looking for something that's comfortable.
I'm looking for a unique experience. Yeah, you get it, though, right? But when you see, like Joaquin, when you see an actor talk about their process, and we've all seen it, and people get into it, and they want to want to like focus.
First of all, I remember doing this thing once and somebody was asking it like about, so we were doing BoJack Horseman and I got kind of, I think I was kind of a dick, but they were like asking about the process and I said, why is everybody so obsessed with how the sausage is made? Why can't they just enjoy the sausage, right? Like, it's not that interesting. And, but then I see, like, you know, these actors who talk, you spend a lot of time, and you see them in these interviews, and they're talking about their process and stuff, and I'm kind of like, okay, man, like, if you want accolades for what you're doing, and you want us to applaud the way you did it, Like, it seems a little self-serving.
Or you have to forgive, like, everybody when they're doing an interview. That's true.
Because you just, like, it's impossible, virtually impossible not to be an asshole when you're doing an interview. At least for me, that's my experience.
I mean, everybody fucking sounds stupid. That's true.
There's just not a good way to come across. And oftentimes, like, a lot of those quotes are from, like, when you've flown to go to, like, a film festival in Europe and you're jet-lagged and you have, like, 100 interviews and you start off just going, like, I'm not going to do any of that shit.
And within 30 minutes, you're just like, whatever it takes, just get me the fuck out of here. I'll say anything.
So, like, like yes i read quotes or see interviews and i go what a twat like and i go uh i've done so much worse um so i always feel like you have to give people like i think you're i think you're i'm with you on that and that's totally fair enough and yeah like the the interview and or junket process is one of the worst sort of that you feel your soul leaving your body. And you think like every word you say, you're like, God, I hate myself so much for what I just said.
And you're trying to come up with different ways to answer the same freaking question. You end up backing into a dumb answer.
I think that what I meant was more that there are people, it seems like they go out of their way to consistently talk about that. And you're like, okay, that's what I was referring to.
However, having said that. Yeah, I mean, maybe, I don't know.
I always think like whatever it takes, whatever works for you, it doesn't really matter. And, you know, I understand there are some rules that it feels like it requires you to...

Okay, for me, every time I work,

I know that I'm going to experience

an ungodly amount of humiliation.

It's just how it's going to go.

There's no way that I can get through it

without being humiliated.

And I think that's part of letting go in some ways, right it's it's kind of stupid like what we do is stupid yeah um yeah and like surrendering it is embarrassing and like it's it's really difficult to do some things because if if you if you actually step out for a second and you're like objective and you look at yourself you just cringe it's so it's so fucking embarrassing and stupid so sometimes i understand like you have to i find that i have to like rush right into it and just go like just humiliate me right now make me feel like nothing and so that i'm willing to do this thing because if i really think about it um i'll just be so embarrassed that i won't be able to to do it it's like the stand-up comic that goes out there on purpose and and tries to bomb you know like to sort of rip off the band-aid and just like i'm up here i'm exposed here are the jokes or here's the non-joke and that almost becomes a performance of just raw vulnerability and let's all get in it together. I always find incredibly admirable.
Well, Sean said, Sean, you mentioned like surrender. There is that moment where you do have to surrender and I think that you do, like I watch you do all these characters in these movies over the last number of years and when I think about someone like you, I think like there's a guy who's like sensitive to the material he's like I would never want to be like hey man how did you do this scene I'm like he did a scene how he did the scene you understood the material you took it in you were sensitive to it and then you just like worked with the material that you were given and that was your interpretation that was your collaboration with the material like full stop like right and it's also like you know journalists critics reporters whatever just kind of doing just enough of their job to get yeah maybe you to fill in the blank and so you know with no thought behind it i can't stand that but um so how did you lose the weight for joker oh here he comes here he Um, what about, do you remember your grow your, when you were growing up, you guys lived a very, uh, sort of atypical, uh, adolescent like I did as well.
Um, how much of it do you remember? Do you remember what the policy was in your house about, well, devices didn't exist back then, but TV and that, or was it the kind of house where go outside, find a rock, find a stick and entertain yourself like it kind of was in my house? Yeah, I don't think we really had a TV until, you know, until I was probably 11 or 12 or something. I don't know, maybe a bit younger, maybe because we'd been working by then.
But certainly when I was very young, I don't think there was even a TV in the house. But we did, there were five of us, right? So it's easy to entertain yourself when there's five kids, right? Same.
And my dad was always really amazing at finding houses to rent that were always like um you know in la you can live like we grew up in the in the valley for a lot and there's there's houses that are like by government land right there's just like mountain ranges right like that's the backyards so suddenly you could go there and And so that's what we enjoy doing, right? Just playing games and using our imagination. So that's what I remember.
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And now back to the show. Forgive me, I don't know, Joaquin, were you, so you You mentioned growing growing up in the valley so were you born in la like that was no born in puerto rico oh that was true yeah i was born in puerto rico oh really that was true um yeah we let's see i think first we lived in uh when we came to the to the station puerto rico we were were in Florida.
And then my mother was college roommates with Penny Marshall.

Oh, Penny Marshall, yeah.

Oh, wow, really?

Yeah, and Laverne and Shirley was very popular at the time.

And my brother and sister, my older brother and sister, River and Rain,

my brother learned to play guitar very young. And they would perform at like talent shows and stuff.
And they were like winning these talent shows. No way.
So I think they felt like this, like just this curiosity and natural progression towards like something in the entertainment field. My parents didn't really have a lot of experience with it, right?

So I don't think they really knew,

but I think that it seemed that the kids had,

I don't know, I don't really want to say talent,

but whatever the fuck it was, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Something, some kind of like creative spark.

Yeah.

And I think they wanted to support that.

And so my mom actually reached out to Penny Marshall

and said we were thinking of coming to Los Angeles

That's what I'm saying. have like creative spark.
Yeah. And I think they wanted to support that.
And so my mom actually reached out to Penny Marshall and said, we were thinking of coming to Los Angeles and would you meet the kids? And I think she said, don't, don't come out. You can imagine like somebody called you like from your past, like you went to college, like, hey, are these kids, will you come out and work when you meet them? And Penny's like, let me stop you there.
Yeah. No way.
Please don't come out. I think we packed up the next day.
And I went to L.A. And, yeah.
That's fucking crazy. So what were your parents doing at the time that they're, like, in, I think you said Florida.
Like, what was going on my dad um did like manual labor like he he um was like the groundskeeper for this this wealthy man um i think it was like a recording producer i can't remember his name um and there was a us like a little guest house on on the property where we lived. And my dad took care of the grounds.
And my mom was raising us. And then we went to Los Angeles.
My mom started working at NBC for this amazing casting director named Joel Thurm. Joel Thurm, that's right, at NBC.
And she worked there, and my dad took care of us to care of the kids and we met joel by the way let me stop you there just for one second so so joel thurm for the listener and for for you guys if you guys sean you may have met him um but maybe he was gone by then but um this was the office where when you were going in to do a network test which for listener, that's the last step before you get a series as an actor.

And when you get a series,

you're employed for years and years

and it's like winning the lottery.

It's a high stakes thing.

So that last audition,

that last meeting in that office is Joel Thurm's office.

So Joaquin's mom was on his desk.

She was sitting at the desk right there

where you're sitting waiting, just like dying with anxiety right before you're supposed to go in there. And it was like, to me, it's carved into my memory.
That office, that lobby, that section right there was where most of my anxiety started as a child. So you're saying Joaquin's mom.
You're still saying Joaquin's mom. No, no, but she was this ray of sunshine.
And she would, every time I'd run into her, we'd have a very nice warm hug and smile. I love that.
You know, that, yeah, she's. Wait, so Joaquin, so everybody was, everybody was in it.
Everybody was kind of in it or around it. Yeah.
Yeah. And so we would, we would go and visit.
And Joel was always just so sweet. Like we would set us up in his office, and we would watch.
That's probably where I remember really being exposed to TV and shows, TV shows, was in Joel's office because we would watch all the reruns. He had every tape of every NBC show.
That's so cool. And it was just like the best time going there.
And yeah, and I think we tried to do, I think he actually arranged for us to do like some recording, like a test to see if we could do like a show as a family. It was like trying to do some kind of thing.
Like the Partridge family or something? I guess. Some shit like that.
And yes, he introduced us to Iris Burton, who was like the child actor agent. Yeah.
And the only one that would take all five of us. It was a package deal.
And they'd be like, I'll take those too. I'll take that.
She was like, I'll take them all.

Uh-huh.

Wow.

Wow.

And so your interest in acting didn't really come as much from watching TV or watching

movies because you guys didn't do a ton of that when you were growing up in the house.

It kind of came from once you moved to Los Angeles and you started to get this initial

exposure to it?

Yeah.

I mean, I think it just was an extension of the games that we played like my dad was a fucking ham yeah like he would do these skits like all the time and again because we didn't have tv we just basically did like plays um so we would just make up these these kind of scenarios um and play them out play dress up and you know like that. So I think it just was an extension of that.
And then I remember being on set, the energy on a set is like unmatched. It's incredible, right? There's just like 100 people that are all like brilliant in their own specific kind of craft.
Yeah. Right? So you've taught people that it's like incredible what everyone does, right? And there's such a, I think everyone in the best case scenario, everyone's really excited about what they're doing.
And they work really hard to kind of create this world. And that's a really interesting energy and it's fucking fun as a kid.
You know, it's like, it's so exciting to be on a set. So there was something that was just really enjoyable about it.
And then I remember the first scene that we did in this TV show in Seven Brothers, in Seven Brothers and one of the characters,

Peter Horton was the actor.

And we'd been friends with them, you know,

because we'd been there on set.

And so then we're in the scene with him

and he's meant to get into a fight

with the boyfriend of the woman that played our mother.

And they get in this like fight

and they're rolling around on the ground. And like like, to an eight-year-old, shit felt very real, right? And he was like our friend, so we were worried about him.
And I remember being, like, overcome with this emotion at what was happening. And I distinctly remember, like, physically buzzing from it.
And it was such a powerful feeling because it wasn't real. It was safe.
But, like, I, like, had this feeling coursed through my body. And I was like, I want more of that.
Yeah. Like, it was so fucking exciting.
And nothing has ever given me that feeling. Like you're obviously safe because you're doing multiple takes.
It's not the end of the world, it's a fucking movie but it can feel so dangerous. You know, you feel like so much pressure because you're committing something and it's going to be around forever it's going to be around forever yeah um and there's something that just feels like really exciting about that to me still that's so interesting hey um joaquin did you do any any comedy you're always funny in what you do even if it's a drama you'll find the comedy because yeah but no like a pure have you ever done like a pure, again, forgive me, have you done like a pure, pure comedy?

I remember seeing you in To Die For, and I thought that was darkly funny. Darkly funny, yeah.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
To Die For with Nicole Kidman. Yep.
I loved that. That was, I think, in the 90s, right? Was that a great experience? It was a great experience.
Yeah, well, I hadn't...

The last film, the last acting that I'd done

was when I was, I don't know, 14 or 15

in a movie called parenthood and then i um we moved out of los angeles we moved to florida and um and i i basically given up acting um yeah i didn't think that I was going to act again. And then my brother really encouraged me to start acting again.
And he was actually going to make a film and he wanted me to play his brother. And I think that kind of sparked my renewed interest in it.
And then, yeah, Tadai For came, and I remember going and auditioning for it. I read that script, and I instantly had an idea of what I thought the character was and went and auditioned for it.
And I was always really fortunate. The directors that I worked with, a lot of them just didn't have ego and weren't desperate to like micromanage and control and really encouraged me to bring my ideas to it and to discover it.
I remember it really started with Ron Howard on Parenthood. And I was surprised at how curious he was about my thoughts and feelings about the character.
So I just, I didn't know that that was allowed. And Gus was, you know, the same thing where, I remember him just saying, like, it doesn't matter.
Like, things don't have to go right. Like, whatever happens is a part of it, and it's okay.
So don't worry about, like, any kind of rules in some ways. And there's a thing that you learn as a kid that you're supposed to pride yourself on, which is, like, hitting the mark and finding your light and knowing your lines.
And I think that all of that stuff is like really dangerous because it just like leads to things being flat. Like when everybody is just like hitting their marks and we know what's going to happen, take after take, you just like, it's just human nature.
Like just follow it fall onto something being like just wrote and i think it lacks like an energy and excitement and we're in this like unique position where you can do multiple takes so why not take advantage of it and you know let it be something different each time within reason um and and and And those are things that I learned from my early experiences. Like it's okay.
I think because films are so expensive and there's so many moving parts, we like to try to control it as much as possible. Where do you sit on that? Because I battle with this as an actor and also as a director sometimes about, you know, how much you should just sort of pay attention to the natural thing of it or how much you should adhere to the technical, uh, uh, specifics of that particular shot.
For instance, let's say the camera angle is really tight on you and you're, and you're sitting down and in the middle of the line, you have to stand up. And because you're in a real tight shot, the cameraman asks you to stand up kind of slowly.
Don't shoot up. Because if you shoot up, I lose you in the camera.
I can't keep up with you. And so they ask you to kind of come up with, sometimes they call it a grouch show, where you kind of come up kind of slow, like in a hunch.
But certain actors, myself sometimes, I'll be like, well, no, I got to shoot up because I'm pissed off. Like, so either widen your shot or just anticipate.
How much do you, like, are there times when you're a little bit more cooperative with that than other times? I mean, I find myself in that sometimes I just, I can't do it. As a director, sometimes I'll hesitate and even asking an actor to do it, but the shot might be, might really need it.
Where do you, where do you sit with all that stuff? The, the, the combination between the technical and the, uh, the natural in, in what you do? I guess it depends. I mean, every, every film is, is different.
There's not really one, one way of approaching it. And there are times where, um, I think it makes sense that the other night we were we were shooting and camera was behind me and i was moving towards the other actor um and just from years of doing it i i knew to like widen out a little bit to like favor the right side so that it was clear on them and i I as i was doing it i was so ashamed that you're accommodating yeah i hated myself so much and i was like this means that i'm not in the fucking moment right i'm aware the camera's there and then afterwards they were like can you widen out a little bit i was like oh I thought I was already widening out as much as I was comfortable with.
And I was fucking embarrassed. And now you're asking me to do it more.
It's kind of our job, though, isn't it? I mean, it's not, you know. It's part of it, though, right? Yeah, when you're doing theater, right, Sean? Like, you don't have to accommodate the other part of the process, which is the camera or the lighting or something.
Like, when we're doing movies or television, that is part of it. And I feel bad for pushing back on that as an actor.
Like my performance needs to stay pure and I don't even want to know about the camera. Yeah, but at every point of it, it is.
Like if you're doing the show, Sean, I imagine, like you're always thinking about don't upstage, make sure, right? Yeah, all the time. You always play out.
You have to play out. And also there's faces staring at you.
But it's distracting, right, Joaquin? Like it knocks you out of it. You've got this big monologue as Oscar Levant and then you're doing this moment and at the same time you're thinking like, fuck, can everybody hear me in the back row? I'm sure you have those moments, right? Yeah, for sure.
But Joaquin, it distracts you out of the performance though yes well i think the job is to be as as true to the moment as possible and sometimes that's easier than other times for whatever reason um sometimes i watch like basketball players and it's just like going in for them um and other times it seems like they're really working at it and focusing it's just one of those things like sometimes you're in the flow and there's nothing those are the best moments when somebody can be making noise off camera talking and you you're not distracted by it like you could throw anything at you and you're just in it right because you're just in the in the flow um and then there's other times where it's a bit more difficult. It feels like it's so artificial, everything that's happening.
And I guess the job in some ways is to try to make it feel as organic as possible. And sometimes that's easier than other times.
So I think if you're in it and you're in one of those moments, it's like, yeah, I can make that adjustment. It's not getting in the way.
And there's other times where I go like, no, you have to adjust the camera because I'm not, I can't do this. I don't really know why that happens.
It's that level, it's that thing you started talking about, about that level of discomfort and embarrassment of like, I have to kind of commit to this thing and to really commit to it is kind of embarrassing it's just weird as shit and you're making that hard for me but yeah yeah that's what i want to talk about because all you know what i'm doing in this play is a big swing for the fences it's like this is embarrassing as all all hell like i'm playing somebody that's nothing like me at all yeah And then I see you, Joaquin, do that over and over again. I'm like, gosh, how in the world do you get past that feeling of humility? Of believing yourself so fully.
Yeah, believing yourself over and over and over again. It's just kind of fascinating.
I wonder if, the director I would imagine is a big, big part of it, right? I mean, you've worked with so many incredible directors that so clearly have, pardon the term, a vision and clear, you know, leadership. No, I'm not going to pardon the term.
I'm not going to fucking do it. But is that a big, big part of it for you when you're considering what to do next? Is it as much about the director as it is about the part? Or is it more so? I mean, the director is it.
It's kind of that simple, right? Because everything ultimately runs through them. Even if they're choosing the cinematographer and the editor, everyone that they're working with, they're ultimately saying yes or no to which take is being used.
Right. Especially because, you know, I like to do, to approach each take differently sometimes.
There's a lot of choices that the director has and so you have to really trust them that they're going to make the right choices because sometimes I will do things that may not be right for the scene and I'll know that, I'll know that this is probably not the right approach for the scene. But I'll do it partially just to change things up, just to put me in this place where I don't really know what's going to happen.
It suddenly just opens it up, the possibilities. And there are times you go, fuck, I hope they don't use that one.
Or if they use a use a little piece of that with one that's, with a take that's more sort of normal, then it makes you look like a shit actor. So you really have to trust the ingredients that the director's going to use downstream when he's cooking things together, or she.
Yeah, or they make you look like a genius. Yeah, right.
Yeah, exactly. So you use a little piece of something, and you're like, like oh that was actually from an earlier part in the scene that wasn't even my reaction for that line right but that's like that's great editing so yeah the filmmaker is everything yeah you're so reliant on the taste of a director.
Todd Phillips certainly has it in spades. And

the film that's coming out right now, Ari Aster, he seems like a guy is just overflowing with genius. That trailer is stunning.
I can't wait to see that film. This is called Bo is Afraid.
Bo is afraid.

How was making that, because for for the listener it's uh if you haven't seen the trailer it's uh correct me if i'm wrong here joaquin it it's about a guy going to see his mom and the uh the sort of uh the the fear and sort of dreamscape or nightmare scape inside of his head as he approaches that event is where this film kind of takes us.

Is that a shitty enough explanation of it?

Yeah, sounds good.

That's just what I gathered from the trailer.

But it's very sort of fantastical and I don't know.

I love sort of Spike Jonze stuff and Charlie Kaufman stuff.

And this seems in that world and just another great example of that type of filmmaking. I'm so excited to see it.
Did you love doing it? I did love doing it. I have just great admiration for Ari and his approach.
And very early on, I realized like how perceptive and observant he was. And sometimes there are some scenes where you think like, okay, well, I can get away with it.
I have no choice, but I have to act through this, right? Because this would be very difficult to maintain this for, like, six hours. Right.
So inevitably, there's going to be a wide shot, and I'm going to be acting in this one at the end of the day, you know? And that happens every once in a while, and it's something you really want to avoid. And it's horrible, but sometimes you're just so fucking tired, and you can't do and again the voice creeps in just going this is stupid what are you doing stop taking this seriously yeah go home yes um and so you have to fight that voice off but it's very difficult if if the filmmaker has that same voice and is also going like hey let's just come on and wrap this up.
And I knew very early on that Ari was not that filmmaker. Right, right.
And so I think that we were just constantly pushing each other to commit to it as much as possible. And so there was no kind of like, oh, let's cheat in this wide shot.
We did one wide shot that was like, it's so ridiculously wide. And it's such a brief moment.
But I had to like, I wanted to like collapse in the take. And I couldn't just like drop to my knees.
I just was like, this is just ridiculous.

I'm not just going to drop to my knees.

And it was stupid looking back on it.

I was like, I could have just dropped to my knees

and nobody would have known the difference.

But I just felt like I was cheating if I did that.

Wow.

I love how honest you are about that.

By the way, Jason, you asked him the question,

like, how was it making?

And then you, like, took a moment to really...

So often people are like, yeah, it was great.

No, he's all honesty.

I love it.

No, it's fucking great.

And it reminds me, Sean, how many late nights

have you been like, we're not...

It's getting too late and you just got to drop to your knees.

I mean, it's got to be countless. I don't need a reason.
I don't need the motivation. It gets me to sleep early.
And we will be right back. Guys, we all need to drink water every day.
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Learn more about the flavors from Waterloo Sparkling Water at drinkwaterloo.com. This episode is supported by FX's Dying for Sex, starring Michelle Williams and Jenny Slate.

Inspired by a true story, this series follows Molly, who after receiving a terminal cancer diagnosis,

decides to leave her husband and explore the full breadth of her sexual desires.

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Hilton for the stay. And now back to the show.
Joaquin, I was just thinking about years ago. I remember when Amy, my ex-wife, was still on SNL, and you came, I remember you came to SNL, and you were shooting, you were with Casey Affleck, and you guys were shooting.
I'm still here. Yeah.
Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about that, man.
Yeah, I was actually thinking about that today. I don't know why.
I was remembering actually going to SNL because there was an actor that I ran into in the hallway, and I can't remember who it was, or I just don't want to say. And I was kind of like doing my shit for that movie.
And she's somebody that I worked with, and she's very shocked and concerned. And I remember the look on her face.
I so desperately wanted to tell her, it's okay, I'm okay. It's just a thing.
So we made this commitment that we weren't going to tell anybody that it wasn't real. So listener, this thing that he's talking about, I'm still here.
This was a documentary about Joaquin quitting acting and becoming a rap star. Wait, I want to hear Joaquin tell it.
Write that in a nutshell. Everybody thought it was real.
They had no reason to think it wasn't real. And everyone was trying to be very...
Well, except that I was like 35 saying, I'm retiring from acting to be a rapper. But that's what made it so electric is because everyone wanted to be really sensitive to, oh my God, what a tragic mistake this young actor is making.
I can just tell you that at SNL that night that I was there, you were there, it was like late 2008, I think. I think Archie had just been born and you were like, and I remember you were walking through and you guys were shooting stuff and then I forget who the band was and you guys came down onto the floor on 8H and you guys were shooting it and I remember everybody in the cast was like, what's going on? What is happening? what is happening? Like nobody knew it was like, you really had everybody fooled.
The train wreck is coming through. And like, yeah.
But you know, it wasn't to fool other people. Like what we discovered is like the moment somebody knew what was going on, that it wasn't real, I became terrible.
Right, right, right. Like I started being like really hammy and like winking at the camera.
And I think the whole trick was to try to get it to feel as real as possible. And so the only way that it felt real was when other people believed it was happening.
And it forced me to try to play it as believably as possible. And so that's why we just didn't want to tell anybody because the moment, because there were some friends that, like actor friends that I would do some scenes with and they, because they knew me so well, they figured it out and I would inevitably just really start overdoing it, just really kind of hamming it up.
And so we just discovered like very early on that when I, if somebody thought that it was real, it just made me embarrassed and scared. And then I would just kind of be more internal with it and I think more believable.
So then just don't tell anyone, right? Yeah. And it was awkward and uncomfortable.
And this girl that was, this actress that was there, she emailed me like a couple days later and she just said like, I know what you're doing. And I actually was, I was so relieved.
Yeah, right. So relieved because I was so embarrassed.
Did you respond? Did you confirm?

I did not.

I did not.

Yeah.

By the way, I tried to do this thing with this guy, Bob,

this writer yesterday on set,

and we were like, it's April Fool's,

and we were like, and I don't do April Fool's,

but I was like, he was like,

just pretend to fire me in front of the crew,

and I was like, okay.

And then so we got later in the day,

and I'd sort of forgotten about it,

and then he walked out, and then we started this argument and it got really awkward. But I had to commit to it because in the middle of it, I'm like, fuck it.
And it felt so like sort of status-wise, I felt shitty. Like an asshole.
Yeah. And I hated that feeling and I was like, why don't you get the fuck out? Well, why'd you even bother showing up? If you're going to just pitch me shitty jokes, then get the fuck out.
And I started going like that. Anyway, we sort of got to the end of it and I finally said April Fool's after a few minutes and the fucking crew, it got really quiet and it wasn't fun.
No. It made them all feel uncomfortable.
It fucking sucked. Wait, Wok, how did that all end up? I don't remember how that all finished up.
When did the curtain come down on all of that? Was it on the release of it? Yeah, on the release. And at that point, we'd been shooting for like two years, I think, or a year and a half or something.
And I had been so looking forward to this moment of saying like it wasn't real.

Yeah.

Because it had just been so uncomfortable and I just had avoided so many friends because I just didn't know how to kind of like keep up the rules. Fucking two years.
And then, so, and I can't remember how we kind of, you know, released it and said, oh, it wasn't real. Nobody believed us.
They suddenly thought, like, oh, yeah, of course,

now after you've fucked your career,

you're trying to say that this is, like, this spoof.

Oh, they thought you, like, had regrets.

Because you're trying to save your career now.

And come back.

Oh, my God.

No way.

And so I was like, oh, fucking can't win.

Can't win.

But then you showed them what was up,

what you came back with the master, right? Wasn't that what followed? Well, that was, yeah. I mean, the thing is, is that as a product of this, of I'm still here, I think at that point, a lot of people that maybe would consider hiring me were like, even if it's not real, you have to be kind of fucking nuts to do this.
So he's probably not somebody you want to work with anyways. And I remember my options.
But PTA was like, bring it on. Yeah, the options at the time were just left a lot to be desired in terms of work.
And I remember at one point just really being desperate and feeling like, well, I actually really fucked myself. And I can't get a job.
And I was really considering doing this movie that was a terrible movie. I knew it was terrible.
But I was like, I just have to get back and show people that this wasn't fucking real. No fucking way.
And I almost did it. And actually, my agent, Boomer, who was actually, he was the assistant of my original agent, Patrick Weitzel.
And he started working with me. At first, I was like, oh, this fucking bait and switch.
Like, I'm working with your assistant now. This is bullshit.
And then I remember talking to Boomer and I was saying, look, man, I'm just, I'm lost. I'm desperate.
It's the first time in my life, like, I don't feel like I know what to do. And I'm asking for advice.
I've never done that. You know, I always really have a strong sense of, like, what I want to do.
And he was like, do you have to do this movie? I said, what do you mean? He goes, does it matter to you? And I was like, no. He goes, well, then why are you doing it? And I really needed that at that moment.
I just felt so fucking lost and confused. Dude.
And it was a really important moment for me. And so I said no to the movie.
And then a couple months later, Amanda Demi reached out to me. And she said, hey, Paul's trying to get in touch with you.
No way. And he sent the script over.
And I remember looking through the script. And there was Freddy and Master.
And I was like halfway through, and I was like, there's no way he's calling me for one of those parts. So I called him.
I said, what character am I supposed to read? Because I figured it was like something that pops up for a couple scenes. he was like, Freddy.
And I didn't even finish the script,

and I had to prevent myself from saying, like, yes, right there.

Because I was like halfway through it,

and I was like, just fuck, yeah.

Dude.

I couldn't believe that he wanted me for that film. That's so cool.

Well, that's me.

Wow.

Before we let you go,

I want to ask you just real quickly about Napoleon. And it's one of the movies I'm looking most forward to seeing coming up.
Um, it seems like that was a really robust shoot. I mean, period and Ridley Scott and that subject matter.
I mean, was it as epic as it sounds like? What can you tell us about that, if anything? Yeah, it was. It was a fucking massive production.
The amazing thing about Ridley is he's, like, overseeing this massive machine, just, like, hundreds of extras, eight cameras, you know, these huge locations. And he can just pivot like that.
He could arrive on set and make a discovery in the moment and feel like the scene is maybe leading in like a new direction. And he's just fine with, like, he'll adjust, he'll adjust the camera, he'll adjust to the performance, like, if there's something that feels honest and real and like a worthwhile exploration.
He'll turn a steamer ship around, right? And it's so impressive to me, because, yeah, I mean, I don't know how much we were spending a day, but it was a lot. And I had a great experience with him, you know, all those years ago on Gladiator.
And so I just was always, always wanted to work with him again. That's so cool.
You know, I know we're going to let you go because you've got to get back, but hearing you talk, I've never met you. I know you probably hate this, but I'm a huge fan of yours and you are an inspiration to me and tons of other actors.
I'm losing so much respect for you. I do.
I know you hate that because it feels false, but it's not. But you're married, you have a baby boy,

you have purpose with animal rights activism,

you have a great career,

you have all this stuff going on in your life.

Are you able to sit back and just kind of absorb all that?

Or do you have a defense mechanism where you're just like,

no, I know everything's great, I just got to keep going,

I just got to keep going and challenge myself to the next thing?

Or can you really sit back and absorb all the great things that have happened to you? As you get older, it all becomes easier. I'm fully cognizant of what a charmed life I have.
It has exceeded my expectations and my greatest dreams.

I'm so fucking grateful for what I have, the family and friends that I have, and the opportunity for work. I never imagined it would be like this, and it has been so fulfilling.
So I really do appreciate it and and value um the opportunity that that i've had but i still want more experiences um yeah i just love making films i love collaborating with with people you know it's just like so exciting to talk about makeup and hair and, like, you're sitting around with all these, like, people that are really good at what they do. Yeah.
And you get to kind of, like, create something together. Yeah.
And it's just an incredible opportunity. I love that you said that because you said it before, too, and you were talking about all the people on set, and I don't think people appreciate it enough,

and I love that you said it.

And I always think about it, like, everybody on set,

no matter what their job is, everybody's a filmmaker.

Everybody is part of the process in that way.

And too often people get, you see people who sort of,

I don't know, spend the time, they don't spend the time or the energy, and they sort of disregard those people. It's like, motherfucker, every single person here is making this film together.
There's nobody there that doesn't have to be there. Yeah, right.
It's something a lot of people don't realize. Well, Wok, you're incredible at it.
Please keep going. We'll take twice as much.
But I got you got a kid to raise and Rooney to hang out with she's awesome too please say hi to her she found us our dog we've got a brand new dog our dog Gary he's a real cutie we love you and thank you and say hi to Todd and Larry and have a great day of work day of work. And I hope this has been okay.
I feel like it was. No, dude, it's been awesome.
You've been very, very generous. Before you go, how do you get into Joker? No.
Yeah. See, we ended up talking about the process and nobody got hurt.
No, but in a good way. Thank you, man.
Thank you for taking the time, especially. Thanks for starting to start work.
Very nice of you to do buddy especially no thank you guys honestly this was painless painless kind of we'll take it we'll take it when you're done hurry home and we'll we'll talk some more okay great thank you all so much thank you dude nice to meet you to meet you. Have a good day.
See you, mate. Bye, walk.
Bye. Man.
Amazing. No, that's a...
That's an artist. This is an actor.
This is an artist. And did you know him, Jason, for a long time? Yes.
Now, we don't spend every day with one another by any stretch, but we've known each other for a long time. We've got some very close mutual friends.
And, you know, he's a guy I would love to talk further with, deeply with, you know, at length with. But as you can tell, he doesn't really enjoy talking about the stuff that we're all fascinated with about him, you know?'s probably why he's so goddamn good at what he does is because yeah maybe he just doesn't care to look at you know how the how the magic trick is done he just it's something he's great at it's something that he uh i i enjoys that's what i was getting at and that you know i put and he was like no no you know, I forgive those people for, you know, talking about the process.
But I meant more about the people who go out of their way. They're like, look at my process.
It's so difficult what I do. That's what I meant.
When they offer it first, yeah. Yeah, when they offer it first and they're like, my whole thing, my whole identity is wrapped around how I do it.
And I want everybody to know and to think that and be impressed by my process, which he is like, couldn't be further removed from that. He's like, man, I don't want to tell you any of it.
He's also one of those actors I love watching and trying to understand what that character must be thinking. Like he's a very internal actor and you kind of, if I knew what he was thinking and I knew how he was doing it, or i knew that much about him if he did a bunch of press and all that stuff it'd be hard for me to buy him being somebody else so i kind of like that he's mysterious you want to do like like i was thinking the last thing i saw him in was was joker and you watch him um in that performance amazing yeah incredible and and you know uh millions of people love it some people don't you whatever you think that when you watch him he's so compelling jason like you say because you're like what is he he's so inhabiting it in those moments and he has these moments where he take and you're watching and you're thinking like exactly that what is he thinking how is he where is he now where he says he's more into the work than all of the other stuff.
But he's also, I don't know. I mean, if.
It sounds so fucking actory to say. He manages to do something that I love when I watch actors is their ability to communicate vulnerability.
And humanness and flaws and elements of being broken. Because we're all broken.
We're all vulnerable, but we all learn these different skins of trying to hide it. And he is so courageous, just as a person who was talking about making a fool out of himself, of being kind of warts and all, like, look at all my flaws.
And he finds those in every character because that's all part of it, I suppose, is just being not fully put together, you know, with his characters. He's only the second, but he is only the second guest we've had who is killing cigs during the interview.
Oh, yeah, who is that? Sean Penn was the other one, right? Yeah. Killen cigs.
You haven't smoked yet during an interview, have you? No, I did when I was in London.

Remember I was recording from London?

I did a couple times.

So what was that called if you smoke a cigarette over there?

Oh, crushing.

Not crushing butts, crushing.

Don't say it.

Don't say it.

We'll have to lift it.

We know what you're going to say.

Jesus, Sean.

Don't say it.

I was just curious.

I don't know what it's called.

Sean, you're trying to bait him into a cancellation.

Are you looking to recast?

It looks... We know what you're going to say.
Jesus, Sean. Don't say it.
I was just curious. I don't know what it's called.
Sean, you're trying to bait him into a cancellation. Are you looking to recast? You're looking for a new third? No, you can crush some fags over here.
Wait, Sean. Oh, Jesus, Sean, for fuck's sake.
What is wrong with you? I'm talking about serious. What would the term be, though, speaking of which, if you liked men and you liked women, yeah.
That makes you... Oh, that you would be, bye! Guys! Cute! We haven't done just a straight up bye yet.
Wow. I know.
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